Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20171217153851

TheHumanAmbassador

''"Her changing the SOUL mode did NOT change your trait-It only changed the battle mechanics." ''

That's what I'm talking about! It changes the mechanic of the battle, it changes your fighting style. It has nothing to do with a change of mind or personality.

" If SOUL modes CAUSED the traits, you'd be fighting kindly against Undyne."

You STILL don't get it. Having the soul of kindness doesn't mean you're kind to the enemy. As I said, the object doesn't match, so it cannot be specified. The only explanation here is that you're trying to minimalize the damage and that you're being kind/protecting the soul. As I said, the traits have nothing to do with the personality of a human. I postulated that they're ONLY fighting styles/mechanics.

"The real resolution t the paradox is to disregard our assumption that changing the SOUL mode changes the trait.  'It do'esn't."

 How do you know that though? Literally the only thing the trait represents is the fighting style. It is never canonically proven that it reflects the personality of the human. So why couldn't it change?

"You don't necessarily have care and concern for the enemy, like the trait shows " 

<p style="font-weight:400;"> No you don't. You have care and concern for your own soul. So the ball game was wrong here.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> " <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">we're no longer talking about personality traits, but battle mechanics"

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Dude. We've never talked about personality traits in the first place. As I said, there's no proof that the soul traits are actually personality traits. We only know that they reflect your fighting style, which can be forcibly changed. As for the inconsistencies, the only one is the wording in the ball game. It doesn't prove that it's a different thing, it proves that it was simply phrased incorrectly. If proof ever emerges that souls directly reflect your personality (meaning that more colors could also hypothetically exist - as humans for sure have more than 7 personality traits), then I will believe it.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> "By the way, in blue SOUL trait, you're hopping and twirling, not forcing the enemy to do it, so it would make sense that YOU would be forced to jump."

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Yes. You see, the ball game describes what do you have to do with your own soul in order to progress/not get hit. That's the point here. It never was about your personality. A patient person can be kind. A brave one can hop and twirl. In these cases, their trait really changes, since it's not their personality, it's how they act. Of course, a default trait does exist, and they come back to it after the effect wears off. This is akin to breaking a routine in order to accomplish something.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The context reveals that you're protecting YOURSELF with a shield. No kindness here" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Yes, you're LITERALLY being kind to the soul. The object isn't important, since the ball game wasn't meant to be interpreted literally. You cannot be kind to your enemy, so it was wrong. The ball game was wrong. Once more. The ball game was wrong. You never are kind to your enemy. Never. You never have to be. But when you're green, you ARE kind to something - the soul. The ball game isn't talking about a "different" kind of green (trait, mode, doesn't matter), there's only one type of green, so if the ball game is describing green, it is describing the same green that Undyne applies to us. Why WOULD there be multiple greens in the first place? Just so that you could claim the ball game was right? Why does it HAVE to be right according to you? The explanation that we already have is satisfactory. No need to make it even more complicated.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Listen, if your entire argument is based on the assumption that the ball game DID talk about a green that makes you kind to your enemy, then you can give up. You won't convince me. There's no proof of such thing existing in the game. You simply interpreted the meaning incorrectly. That part wasn't meant to be interpreted literally. You ARE kind to something, but not the enemy. It's never the enemy.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Perseverance is constitution." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Perseverance is perseverance. HP is constitution. Determination is the power to refuse fate. It's not complicated, really. I questioned why is perseverance similar to HP only because I concluded that it is constitution. And that was because I was forced to assign its other meaning (literal perseverance) to determination. Of course, if we disallow determination to be a trait, then perseverance can be perseverance no problem, and HP can be constitution. Still, even then, the meaning of DT is a bit different than that of perseverance (which I explained it at the beginning of this paragraph).

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The others do exist, they're just overshadowed by the trait that you're abundant in." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">That's exactly what I'm arguing against. I said there's no dominant one, since what you described simply doesn't exist. Either your fighting style is to hop and twirl, or you try to minimalize the damage, or you try to end the opponent quickly, or you're patient and wait for the right opportunity, etc. You can never do two or more at the same time. You can only switch between them very quickly at most.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">They don't always represent out stance against the enemy, because they don't always represent our trait." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">If you're blue, then you hop and twirl. It's that simple. All fit, all act exactly how the ball game described them, except for green. So, is green something unique, or have we simply interpreted the ball game incorrectly? Why change the whole system, when you can simply assume that the ball game was wrong in that specific case? Or, rather, that it wasn't wrong, just that the actual meaning wasn't so literal. I mean, what says that the ball game should be interpreted exactly how it's phrased? Maybe it's just the analogy's fault, maybe Toby made a mistake when he picked a snowball to represent the object. I don't know about you, but I can't accept your view when it's based entirely on the wording of one specific line. Not in this case. Not if it can be just an error in analogy. Not if all that it takes to break it is to interpret the said line less literally.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">It changes battle mechanics, which once again, do not accurately represent the traits." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Again, where is it written that the traits are something else than battle mechanics? Your only proof is the discrepancy in the wording of the ball game. But what has priority here? Some silly minigame that could very well be metaphorical, or the actual effects of the soul colors we see in the battle?

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">---

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Actually, they don't. They have the SOUL power of only ONE human SOUL. In fact, they played no part in the destruction of the Barrier, it was a combination of the six fallen humans, and the monsters combined." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> That's the most bs thing you've said so far. Let's do the math. The power of 7 human souls is needed to shatter the barrier. 6 have been provided, in addition to thousands of monster souls. A single monster soul therefore has the power of around a 1/10000 of a human soul, give or take. And if I recall correctly, 1 > 1/10000. It's bigger by a huge margin. Human souls indeed are extremely powerful, and account for the majority (6/7) of the power, even if there's only 6 of them, in comparison to the thousands of monster souls that would be required. The only soul property that we know of that has similar properties is determination. Since assuming that DT is soul power poses no paradoxes, I shall do so. What about you?

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">"because we're essentially "leaving" the physical world, to interact with the HUD and reload the backup SAVE we have" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">You know, I might as well accept the idea that when YOU close the game, Frisk presses some button that loads their last save file (you actually press and hold esc to do so, so that might as well be a representation of the button they press). I won't accept any idea that tries to merge those two however. Frisk doesn't transcend reality itself when loading. They don't transcend anything when resetting, they don't do so when saving either. I know that in order to reset, you must first close the game in order to access that option. But that could just be interpreted as an extra pop up menu when they press the mysterious load button.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">He heard the narrator. We know he can see the HUD, so he should be able to see the narration. After all, Napstablook does!" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;">There's no proof he heard the narrator. I don't know if he can see the HUD. We know that Sans and Asgore can though. But Asgore didn't hear Chara, he didn't hear the narrator. There's no reason to think that the one who can see the HUD can hear the narrator. And while Napstablook and Tsunderplane can both hear the narrator, there's no proof that they can see the HUD. So all in all, I don't know what was your point here.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Asriel could have just deleted Frisk's file without replacing it-That would initiate a RESET, due to no SAVE file existing." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;">This fanon is new to me.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">Some say Toriel remembers the RESETs because Flowey reset." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">You said that actually. And now you're debunking it. Make up your mind already.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">" <span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">Did some humans with determination SOULs SAVE and LOAD on the Surface, causing this to happen?" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">I don't even understand who besides you could come up with such an outlandish explanation in the first place.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">When Toriel sees another human fall, and puts them under her care, it reminds her of when she did this with Chara." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> No. She specifically says that she feels like she already knows them. Not that they remind her of someone. We've been over this already.