Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-34762984-20180927183143/@comment-34762984-20180928055016

TheHumanAmbassador wrote: The idea that Chara was NEVER evil at all, even during the Genocide Route?

..And here I thought the Chara Defense Squad was defending Chara the most. I guess not. Well, I suppose I'll go over that theory. Now, I'll repeat what Ellipsis said:We are to use the facts, not emotion. (But of course I won't just repeat the nochocolate theory and call it done.) This doesn't sound like that silver dividing line on the Yin-Yang, this sounds like going so far on the Yin side that you've completely walked out of the circle and reached nothing but white, with that black dot of Yang in the Yin half being completely gone. (The Yang dot in this analogy is the fact that Chara is STILL evil in Genocide, but only because you made it so. And in the real symbol, the Yin half has a bit of Yang, and vice versa. Going off of that. But you left the symbol completely.)

As you might know, I'm on the "Cooperation" side of this:Frisk and Chara both cooperate to do the Genocide Route.. But there are things I'll have to clear up, because my version differs from what you said about the Cooperation theory, especially when it comes to the SOUL exchange. I already have a thread explaining my take on the matter ("Chara Dreemurr: The Fallen Angel of Death"), but I'll make sure you can understand this post even without reading that thread-Besides, a few things have changed since then, and some things I didn't clarify as well as I could have done it now. (Call it a "beta version" if you want.)

Now, to your posts.

Firstly, while I'm not nochocolate, and only the mods there know for sure, I believe what they mean hen they said calling them evil doesn't work is that "evil" doesn't perfectly describe them-Yes, they're evil, but they're not one-dimensionally evil-You can't perfectly describe them just by saying they're evil. You need to get more specific, their character is more complex than just that. You can be evil yet think you're not. They're likely under the impression that true "evil" does not exist as such:There is only an absense of good. So, I'm certain that they don't believe there is even such a THING as a world-class villain. Kind of what most people agree the message of Undertale is. ..Except for you, the Genocide Player for some reason. Somehow you're an exception to that rule if you've EVER done Genocide. Even though Flowey would have done the same thing. ...Then again, you acttually have a SOUL, and nothing happened to corrupt you, so, I suppose this actually makes sense. But I'm going to leave another slot open for Chara.

Secondly, about that Chara Defense Squad.. They're kind of the same type of people who would believe the Nazis weren't evil because they were "just following orders". That you convinced them, that what they were doing was in fact not evil, but how the world operates-Essentially, reaffirming that they were right to want to kill the humans, that Asriel was a traitor, and thus, the whole world deserves to be destroyed. You did, however, correctly point out how this doesn't make sense, when they lecture you about you thinking you're above consequences even when you decided that yes, you DO want to destroy the world. (Though Chara doesn't attack Frisk at all:The attack the world itself-That's how they erase the world.)

First off, we have to talk about that Toriel line. So, this only happened after you reloaded after killing Toriel, not before. So, you've already demonstrated that you want to spare her. So, Chara asks you if that's even possible, and offers no hint whatsoever, whether the Froggit gave the answer before or not. Yes, a Froggit actually gives the answer:You'll meet someone who you'll have to spare even when their name isn't yellow. You read that right:A FROGGIT is more helpful than our Charrator over here.

..Let me take note of that in my ranking of characters..

Froggit>Chara

As for the "but that's creepy", there's one major thing you're missing:Chara's not the only one that acts outside of pressing buttons. Frisk fell without you doing anything, they hide behind Papyrus' lamp without player input, and so on. These are what we know as cutscenes, and this is natural in many video games-The player character does things without player input because that's part of the story. So this could be Frisk. And taking another look at the line, it's almost CERTAINLY Frisk.

"You thought about saying you saw Toriel die. But, that's creepy."-Chara

This implies that you THOUGHT about it, but YOU decided against it. Frisk decided against it. Not Chara. The exact same argument applies to the "you remembered something funny" line aboit the dog food as well-Frisk is the one who suddenly thinks it's funny, not Chara.

As for the Asriel fight, while LOADing your file would help in the short term, you can't just get around Asriel, you can't skip his boss fight. You'll HAVE to fight him either way, and SAVing Asriel is the only way to permanetly solve the problem.

You have completely valid arguments for the lines in Asgore's fight, however, and I have no arguments as to why Chara called Undying "the true heroine", other than the possibility that they were trying to see if you'd distance yourself from "morality", and continue your quest, even if the opponent appears to be the good guy (more accurately:Actually IS the good guy)

Not only that, you were the first to make an ACTUAL good argument defending what Chara said in Snowdrake's battle, that I'm aware of. Congrats! Of course, since I see Chara as less of a heckler and more of someone who loves gaining power, that wasn't really much support of my theory anyway. So they agree that hecklers laugh at stuff that's not funny. At least you're not like the Chara Defense Squad who would then cite this as evidence that Chara isn't evil..

Now for the True Pacifist speech. I DO believe they were talking to Chara, but I believe he completely got confused, and is still getting used to the idea, not even knowing that FRISK is the one with the ability, not Chara. First, I'll explain how Asriel figured out that Chara still existed, and then I'll explain his confusion, and where that speech came from.

So, before the fight, Asriel felt that Chara was there. He attributes that feeling to YOU being Chara, but this turns out to be false. So, he then chalks it all up to him projecting Chara onto you, about how Chara wasn't the greatest, etc.. But yet, he still gets that strange sensation of an old friend, that perhaps Chara is still there.. He already got over his projection, so he started to think of other explanations. Now, Napstablook can respond to and read the narration, so the narrator CAN be heard/read under some circumstances, and since we could see Flowey's HUD in the Omega Flowey fight, it's very likely that Flowey can see our HUD, and thus, the narrator. He then uses process of elimination:If Chara is there, and WE'RE not Chara, that only leaves the other guy, who we know as the narrator. He deduced this correctly, but didn't understand how the relationship worked. He's only familiar with the idea that when two beings are like one, they share control. He assumes that Chara shares control of our body, and, in fact, our SAVE. Seeing that he doesn't believe Frisk would reset their happy ending, they consider Chara the only threat-And him saying Chara's probably seen this a hundred times means he guesses Chara would WANT to reset. ...Probably because Asriel concluded that Chara must be SOULless, and thus would act similarly to Flowey. (Humans can't absorb other human SOULs, and Chara's SOUL shattered.)

Okay, this is getting long. I guess I'll have to split this up! And by the way, I'm not saying that Chara isn't evil, I'm saying they were never your partner. There's a difference.