Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27907368-20160428221757/@comment-27907368-20160504093729

Again, Frisk is not the player. There is canon evidence for this at the end of TP. Again, Chara isn't contributing determination unless they are awoken.

I'm not creating a vast philosophical explanation for Undertale - I'm recognizing that the game identifies the player as a being separate of Chara and Frisk. One of the precipitates of doing this is discussing DT v. dt.

Flowey believes Chara has risen from the dead in their old body, which is why he uses DT. Or, he is projecting as he does in TP. I'm not assuming everything this guy says is wrong, I'm recognizing that this projection occurs in TP and it's not out of the question. He misjudged the protagonist, which is obvious when he trembles in fear.

I'll go through the instances of Flowey/protagonist mentioning saving, but it's honestly a side point. Just musing with caps, is all.

And, again, I recognize that the reset mechanic exists whenever we're piloting the protagonist around. However, in that last battle, the mechanic is moot because Frisk's SOUL provided DT. The physical form has nothing to do with this battle given that we can't even move our body in this fight.

Our body and our SOUL are not necessarily attached to one another. The human SOUL can persist after physical death. You're equating physical death to spiritual death which isn't the case in TP. Asriel reassembles all of the monsters from their SOULs at the end of the battle and the protagonist wakes up, as well.

The other humans are missing, too. Perhaps they've been revived?

Determination produces two distinct effects. Why is this? Why does Flowey get to reset while Undyne recovers from death to fight again? Why can many entities have the latter trait and only one the former? Again, why are dt and DT recognized separately in "Last Dream"?

There are a lot of questions that are easily explained by recognizing that two types of determination exist. Moreso, this explanation makes the concept that the past humans were able to reset and preserve after death actually make sense and justifies why Asgore kills us time and again. He expects us to re-fuse one of those fights.

Chara points to the player and says that it was their doing, that we pushed it all to the edge. They talk to us in the Abyss. You seem to be equating Frisk to player, which is against canon. So, we aren't Frisk or Chara. Therefore, we're something else.

PF gets the ability to manipulate time again. Why doesn't Asriel? Well, he says that he wants to control the whole kitten kaboodle, and that he has to defeat us to get that end. He notes that:


 * "Isn't that delicious? Your "determination." The power that let you get this far... It's gonna be your downfall!"

So, recognizing that it's dt that controls the timeline, got it. Explains why we can reset post TP.

Honestly, the dt DT idea makes the canon make sense. Why the human SOULs are in jars, why the DT machine produced two different types of effects, why Asgore ups and kills us time and again, why we don't gain re-fuse in the sans fight...

If you'd like to answer those questions while remaining true to canon, be my guest. If you'd like to sweep it under the rug as an oversight by Toby, then color me surprised. He's spent five years working on the code and had incredibly dedicated players go through it tens of times. He even comments that one tester in particular went through the game hundreds of times to ensure that the story was consistent.