Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170829204304

1) How do we know it? Asriel said so. If he could do something extra like that, then he would do it right away. Perhaps you need to look more into his character to realize that he wouldn't lie to us there. And besides he gave all those souls away, so how?

2) You just said the dog is Toby, and then said it isn't. So pick one. I believe the dog DOES represent Toby, but only in the developer room, which makes that room non-canon. While in the rest of the game the dog isn't Toby, but at least it's canon. As I said, you must remember that not everything was meant to be 100% canon, and some things were just a joke.

3) Still, Sans probably made that promise not too long before Frisk falling down. And I don't see any exhaust on Papyrus's car, and those discs Napstablook is using are DJ discs - quite the difference.

4) "We can't disregard even a single piece of evidence." Has it ever occured to you that not everything was meant to be evidence? Anyways, perhaps you could tell me what "HUD" means already. I thought we were talking about the battle interface up until now. And, just to point it out, there is no evidence that the game menu or the credits are canon. Yes, perhaps the battle interface is canon, and yes, the save mechanic is definitely canon, but there is no proof that the menu and the credits actually exist within the world of Undertale. From its perspective, it is still just a world, not a game, so there logically would be no menu. This is unlike Oneshot, which is a game that does acknowledge it is just a game.

This is why I'm trying so hard to define everything using non-gaming terms. Undertale never acknowledged its own existence. Despite everything being so meta, it seems like it is a self-sustained universe. And so why should we assume that everything is computer-based, when we can replace it by a more natural explanation? (eg. it is simply time travel, not a physical "save")

5) Yet the ancient inscriptions speak otherwise. It seems like the war was an ebarassment if anything. It certainly wasn't long. It was quick, sudden and unexpected.

6) Well, because Chara's essence is still bound to Frisk's soul. They may not have their own, but they HAVE one at least. And no, even though Chara does get the info from the monsters, it does not mean the monsters know about them. If a thief steals from your house while you're gone, you wouldn't know about it either. Though you may install an anti-theft system, similarly to how some monsters refuse to give Chara the info.

7) Because they're both. A particle and a wave. In the game, you either have the HUD, or you don't. Pick one, you can't have both. Oh and Frisk does a lot without us having to do it for them. Like, the talking. It is implied in many cases that Frisk said someone without an option to say something popping up. I don't think we're roleplaying them. We're just deciding for them in most cases (but not all of them). That's not a full roleplay.

8) I appear to have mistyped the numbers. Also, you do agree that the monsters' names aren't always what the HUD is showing then?

9) I never said the universe is code. I just said it's glitched. Reality is glitched. And also I never said that he can't teleport his station. I just said that he's too lazy for that, and so he duplicated it. Why build a new one when you can just duplicate the old one? And maybe he did duplicate other things. Perhaps that's how he affords the rent for that giant house. By multiplying his money. And again, he's too lazy to multiply it further, to get even more money. And so why duplicate ketchup when you can pay for it? He wouldn't rip off Grillby like that.

10) Frisk still controls a little bit of the timeline... but not the save power. Omega Flowey was in control of that, and now, as Asriel, he's even MORE powerful. And yet, he can't reset. So he couldn't reset as Omega Flowey either. But neither could we. So no one can really reset. Perhaps the fault is in Flowey. When we fell, we yanked that power away from him. But now, even as a being with 6/7 souls, he can't take it back. So the reason for this might be the fact that his essence isn't really bound to any of those souls, they're all stolen. He can save and load, but he can't reset. Not without his own soul.

11) As I said, Alphys didn't know that soul power is measured in determination. She didn't know a lot of things. She is a great engineer though. And the barrier is magical, despite there being no mention of the human children having magic. I think one book in Snowdin implied that humans aren't made of magic, so it's obvious that magic isn't required to break the magic spell, but determination. What else makes human souls so strong besides determination (if they have little to no magic)?

12) She was questioning his decision, which was made before the first human (after Chara) fell down. I guess the decision was that he will collect 7 souls instead of one more and going through the barrier. If he were to decide to go for that, maybe Toriel wouldn't be so angry with him. But he chose to be a coward and hurt more than necessary.

13) Then why did they disagree that they didn't laugh, didn't heckle? They disagreed with everything. I think this proves that the player is independent of Frisk and Chara, and that Frisk is to some extent independent of them. It proves that the player is a thing in the first place. Because that's how Undertale was designed. To get the player involved too. Then there's also Flowey speaking to the player at the end of the game. I could be Chara, but the player is a more logical choice (see 14).

14) And about Chara having the power to reset everything... That was said by Flowey. In that exact conversation. So if I dispute it by saying he was referencing the player, you suddenly have no proof of Chara ever having this power. And why is Chara's name used to reference us in the first place? I think I already said why, players tend to name the fallen human using their own name, because they think they will be roleplaying them. And Flowey seems to be talking into nothing in that screen. Just like he does at the end of every neutral run. It may be possible, that in all of these instances, he is referencing the player. Since if he's doing so at the end of the pacifist run, then why not there too? This is a bit different from meeting him at the end of the ruins, where he does a similar commentary, but we can still see the overworld. In the black screens, there is nothing. You may say that this is not the case, since when we abort a genocide run, Flowey will think that Chara took revenge on him, but again it makes more sense to say that we were the ones revenging. Flowey attacked us. But enough of that. The poing is, that Undertale actually DOES break the 4th wall. In those scenes, Flowey is talking directly to us, and in the overworld, he mentions us once. Seems like the two are really separated. The overworld and the black screens. I think Chara may also be speaking to the player at the end of the genocide run. After all, the situation is the same, no overworld sprites (the world is black before Chara destroys it), and no Frisk. It seems like the two (the player and Frisk) are interchangeable. Maybe the player is to some extent a canon entity, and is also in possession of Frisk's soul. Or maybe the player isn't canon at all, meaning all those black screen scenes aren't canon either. Maybe except for the one with Chara. Since they show that they're still there at the end of the pacifist route - meaning that whatever happened in the black screen sequence must have been canon. But Flowey's scenes are questionable. Maybe the player is a thing and Flowey talks to them, or maybe not, and those scenes are not canon, and are meant for our eyes only.