Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-35640811-20180307024503/@comment-32182236-20180326192206

"I think that has been conclusively proven already. After all, there's nothing but correlation between the two."

Yes. One correlation. Humans have more of both. Which has a 50% chance of happening by coincidence anyway. It's just as likely to happen by coincidence than not happening by coincidence if it's false! Therefore, that's not proof at all!

"After all, no one states that Flowey is Asriel either, besides Flowey himself."

And nobody PERIOD stated that SOUL power was determination, and Alphys separates the two. She mentions SOUL power in entry 1, which is what locks the barrier, while in Entry 5, she discovers determination, and names it as such. Alphys.. That already has a name. You just said it four entries ago. That's the first problem with the DT=SOUL power thing. Flowey, however, states it himself, and there is a way to prove the case. We know essence is who you are, that it's within dust, and that Asriel's dust(essence) scattered across the whole garden.. Which would include the flower that became Flowey. Since Flowey has Asriel's essence, we know he must be Asriel, since essence is who you are! Done! Now, do the same with DT being SOUL power.. Unless that's impossible like I'm arguing..

"And conversely, there is much more proof that soul power is DT in the game than that it isn't."

Your "proof" is one vague, random correlation. My proof is the entries of the great Dr. Alphys. So.. yeah.

"So I may be wrong on this. So what? It's not like I can just ask Toby to confirm or deny this."

So, we look for the one that doesn't pose any problems in the game's lore.

"I've got a model that works, which also simplifies the matter over the one that assumes both are a different thing (so it complies with Occam's razor), so I don't see any problem here."

At first, this is true. However, you then use that as undeniable PROOF that the other fallen children can SAVE and LOAD, and then have to add another epicycle on why they didn't kill Asgore. Using things like that as absolute proof is fallacious, since we donmt even know the premise is true. And the fact that we have to add another epicycle adds complexot to your theory. And we'll have to add yet another epicycle to explain why Alphys clearly distinguishes the two. I, however, only have ONE epicycle instead of two-There exists a minimum amount of DT required to SAVE and LOAD. Which fits Occam's Razor better now? This is why the geocentric model lost, despite seeming simpler, since it does LOOK like everything's orbiting the earth, and doesn't assume relative motion. Same thing for the Flat Earth model. This is also why just saying "God did it" isn't a good response. (I mean, just saying God did everything seems like the simplest model you could POSSIBLY imagine, right..?) And, we shouldn't be saying "Dog did it" either.

"The geocentric model, albeit wrong, also wasn't throwing us the incorrect results, since people perfected it."

By modifying it every time it DID get wrong. It didn't predict anything. It just added more and more epicycles.

"But they could at least observe that it's wrong, so obviously, they fought over this. Here however, fighting is pointless."

Why is it pointless now, and not then, if the situation is the same?

"Although I must confess, I had no idea what you really wanted to say here. So I just filled in the blanks, hoping that this is what your point was all about."

At least you said it. Because actualy, the paragraph above wasn't my point. My point would be easier to deduce if you took what I was reaponding to into account. You had said that Alphys couldn't have used more than one SOUL, because doing so would mean all that DT would be "missing". You didn't specify exactly what the problem would be, so I assumed you meant the Barrier would never break, and then went on to show how yes, the Barrier WOULD break, because all the "missing" DT (for the sake of argument, I'm going by your side of DT being SOUL power here) is inside of Flowey already, and he used that too to break the barrier. Therefore, nothing changes, and this isn't a problem with the theory. And it doesn't even reply on any assumptions either-All it relies on is that the determination injected into Flowey.. Is inside Flowey. Which is a fact, since it was literally injected into Flowey.

"Why, you didn't read the links I provided either? It is mentioned several times throughout the game that Snowdrake and his friends are teenagers."

You're using the "teen comedian" line here? Really? A more plausible situation is that "teen" here is actually young children, specifically, from 13-19. (By monster standards, that would be young.) In the case of teen comedian, he's a comedian FOR teens. That's why he can still be a comedian and make his auidence laugh despite the fact that they're just bad puns. That's why his bad jokes are still good enough to warrant his position.

"But it's not impossible for the converse to happen. I suggest you stop pondering this already and simply go with the flow. It's not like Toby will tell us the truth anytime soon... or anytime at all for that matter. We simply cannot build our theories on the assumption that the dates being equally spaced out being more probable than them not being justifies the said theory."

So, we can't build our theories off the fact that the odds of eight humans falling in one century out of 10 are astronimally low (1 in 10 million), yet we CAN build our theories on the assumption that one correlation that has a 50% chance of randomly happening means two things are the same thing?

"And your version has caused all sorts of problems already, such as, monsters having video cameras two hundred years after being imprisoned. The humans all falling down within a single century isn't probable according to you, but this is?"

They had two full centuries. Just because our own civilization didn't do it because they were focused on alchemy doesn't mean monsters would do the same.

"And don't blame this on Gaster. Einstein was also a genius, and he never accomplished anything of such scale."

He's not an irreplacable one, like the follower says, along with the fact that Gaster's machine can't be repaired by anyone.. Nobody could recreate what he did, even in the era the game takes place in. Also, Einstein was a physicist, not an engineer, and he DID accomplish something of that scale. The theory of general relativity, which redefined pretty much everying we thought we know about physics. So.. yeah.

"I think you may be simply overestimating the meaning of the word "genius.""

Or you think I'm saying Gaster was just a regular genius and not what the game says he is.

"It's not a synonym for a "cheat code user." Because only a cheat code user would be able to use a Shelby Cobra in the middle ages."

The only reason why there weren't any during that time is people didn't have the knolwedge or technology needed to do that. The materials we need to make it were there even during the Cambrian Explosion (though we ourselves weren't around, so, there's a problem there, but.. Hopefully you get my point.)

"Ye. My actual argument was the fact that a one full soul of DT was simply not wasted on him. There's no way Alphys just wasted a full human soul on a single flower. The king would be so mad at her, she wouldn't be able to handle it. She was a liar back then already."

Exactly. She was a liar. She lied about that. It's not possible to tell apart a SOUL with all its determination to that with just half just by looking at it. We already know she used multiple SOULs, as evidenced by Entry 5.

"Besides, I've just realized. Isn't it implied that the only thing holding the human souls alive is determination? After all, that's its exact definition, the substance that keeps you alive and keeps you motivated. Wasting it all, the human souls would surely die."

No wonder the human SOULs couldn't revolt until we gave them back determination! They were dead! They couldn't!

That aside, Alphys didn't just take out all the DT of one SOUL. She took some determination from EACH SOUL. After all, .75*2=1.5, which is enough. One SOULs worth does not necessarily mean all of one SOUL. So we shouldn't expect the SOULs to turn to dust. My take on the matter is that Flowey has somewhere between 1.2-1.8 SOULs worth of DT. (Or [.2~.3]*6)

"Yeah. I'm pretty sure too. And I don't know why you suddenly brought the topic of soul traits up."

To explain why Frisk overtaking Flowey and not the humans before Flowey actually makes sense. Though, since Chara is with us, and is alive, they have DT as well.. Perhaps theirs merged with ours, pushing us to have more determiation than we already did? Of course, I'm keeping the simpler red SOUL theory for now.

"That premise contains a logical fallacy. I don't know how you even came up with it, but... I certainly didn't. So I have no clue what you're trying to do here."

Wow, you spotted the problem much quicker than I thought! All the atuff below it was explaining why that was wrong. As I said above, I said that even thoug I debunked some of your arguments that I deemed invalid, I would still somewhat take your side on the matter, and explain why Flowey ALWAYS being in control is simply impossible. After all, Cookie-Owl said that the reason why no humans could save and LOAD is because Flowey always had that power. I was debunking that for you. We know for a fact that at least one SOUL was captured, because otherwise there wouldn't any determination to extract to make Flowey in the first place! Take into account my Entry 5 evidence as well, and that means at least TWO of the six humans after Chara fell before Flowey was created. So yeah, I was trying to debunk the argument. That quote was a perfect representation of Cookie-Owl's argument.

"Souls in general shatter. That's what's been proven. You haven't proven the exclusivity of the red souls in this regard yet."

It's right there in the game. The other six SOULs haven't shattered, they're encapsulated. Asgore has living proof of this. If all SOULs naturally shattered, this wouldn't be possible. My point was that Chara's SOUL should have, and DID, shatter, and therefore, their SOUL could not have been used for the determination experiments.