Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180714152726

"But there's no selfishness. All we see, is that green gives you a shield. If blue makes you jump around (as per the blue flag description), if yellow gives you a gun (as per the yellow flag description - sort of), then you can see it's about the trait and you, not about the trait and the monster casting it. So, if green gives you a shield, then that's kindness. And what is kindness? Care and concern. No other mode relies so much on protection of the soul as this one. That's it. Besides, it's not really selfishness, if we're not the ones casting the spell, is it not?"

We run into a problem once we look into someone who naturally has a green trait.

Also, I've already proposed my solution to the problem-If we interpret "care and concern" as a form of PASSION (which it CAN be defined as), the problem goes away! It also links Undyne and her battle with the green trait nicely, including in the Genocide Run.

"So, would you rather blindly stick to the absolute meaning of the trait, or rather try to connect it with its respective mode?"

Por que no los dos? (Look at my take above)

"Get the art book, it's all in there, and much more."

...The main artist is Temmie Chang, correct?

"But she didn't imbue the flower with the machine, she imbued it with the DT. Utilize your IQ for once, sheesh."

Of course not. But she used the machine to gather the DT to inbue it with-Therefore, she technically DID use the blueprints.

"He has hope that they will get out of there one day. That's what led him to declare the war after all. This is your own logic used against your argument."

Which contradicts what we know about Asgore from Gerson's comment in the Genocide Run, where he states Asgore had no intentions of leaving, because if they did, they'd just be attacked by humans all over again. Asgore himself said the delcaration of war was just a fit of rage.

"Maybe they attacked first back then too, provoked the monster to defend itself, which would raise the question, how did the monster know that human souls are strong? Sure, they persist, but that may not mean anything. There's a lot of implied knowledge floating about. Another example, how did they know that nearly all of monsterkind equals to one human soul?"

Both of them could have been determined from the one doing the absorbing. By looking at their newfound SOUL power, and just doing some math, it's not too hard.

Oh, you meant BEFORE then? Yeah, they didn't. But it was obviois that absorbing a human SOUL would net at least SOME power, so a megalomaniac would most certainly go for that.

"Never assume a conspiracy. Because conspiracies are a slippery slope, that end in the belief that the world is a hologram and that the world's govenments are trying to hide it."

Look, we have a clear contradiction that can only be resolved through this conspiracy. It's not like all those other theories that really don't have good evidence.

...Unless you mean Undertale's world, in which case your simulation hypothesis matches this conclusion perfectly. ..Who's the conspiracy theorist again?

"Perseverance is their dominant personality. Let's not change the definitions. And I think this refers only to taking as many notes as absolutely necessary. It doesn't crave for more, just for enough to get the basics over with. Basics - survival, in our case. (Funny, how this aligns itself with the chakra definition of red, which is all about survival; we've come a full circle here.)"

And perservearance DOES have something to do with it. How long did it take Einstien to make his theory of general relativity? How long did he have to perservere?

...Also that's just their methods to solving the problems. Even as they feel trapped. It's still mainly about fighting on. But, you never know what can be considered as an "obstacle"..

"It's more obvious with Undertale. Our laws are based on precise math, yes, but ever seen a game that would utilize something like that?"

Mechanics based on precise math? ..Um, yes, that's a huge part of how code works.

"Most games are based on if-else conditions, that often make no sense in the real world. Same here. Take the turns, for example. Why must everything be simultaneous, except for this?"

We're allowed to move our SOUL within the box on their turn. There is simultaneous events, it's just that if we're cut off from the button used to attack, we have no way of, well, attacking.

"And why does the condition apply for humans vs. monsters only? (from what the monsters can see)"

This likely means humans and their SOULs have something to do with this. They already appear to have strange powers-Making a shield appear, firing bullets out of nothing, only being able to move across and between strings.. Not to mention the blue and orange lasers attacks/lasers

"Seems awfully specific and nonsensical for any subtle universal mathematical rule, don't you think?"

An exchange between a SOUL and a button isn't really all that nonsensical, when we're dealing with alternate realities.

"So, does that mean the UT world IS a simulation then? After all, you've outlined the difference between it and the Pokemon world so nicely."

No, it just means it's not Pokemon. Remember, SAVES aren't canon there either. Neither are levels.

"As I said, it's much more obvious in their world, which works precisely as a game, due to these rules being canon. So again, why does no monster question this? The HUD is a thing only for us, isn't that right? And don't you believe many of those monsters are meeting a human for the first time in their lives?"

Yes, they are meeting a human for the first time. But they still know what a human is. And remember, although they can't see our buttons, they still know to expect an attack sometime after theirs is finished.

"Some do, but not all. Which makes no sense. If they knew you are a human from these weird interactions, why don't they address that ever after? There is no hint any of them learned you're a human after fighting you once."

Because before, they want to fight you since, well, you're a human, and afterwards, why do they need to SAY that they know you're a human? We both know that I'm a human, Captain Obvious, no need to point it out!

..Those monsters don't really say anything at all. The ones that DO speak to us (other than the storytellers at New Home, who simply want to tell your their tale, which you should already know if you're a monster this old) pretty much start by saying they've found a human. It's pretty clear they know what a human is. Else they have no reason to fight you in the first place.

"That's not an explanation, that's a method. And we all tried this already. It got us nowhere."

I've already demonstrated how it can work. My explanation on how it all fits together is also my demonstration on how it CAN fit together.

"Here you go, this guy knows what's up: https://steamcommunity.com/id/darkslayer666/recommended/391540/"

....That's an fan-review. We have no reason to assume that they're any better at this than any of us are.

"Undertale is a game where you as a player are responsible for the things you do. Its main idea is to take the meta and make it canon. That's what it's all about."

And the HUD is no excpetion to that rule.

"The game is hiding secrets for the sake of hiding secrets. Any attempts to piece together a consistent story are futile."

...Yeah, that one has no basis.

"Have we ever gotten a consistent explanation for why the monsters are trying to destroy our soul if they actually want to capture it? Such a critical plot hole, so much for a consistent story, eh?"

Considering that the plaques clearly say they persist past death, they likely are expecting that. The monsters CLEARLY don't know about saving (save a small few), so.. Why bother? If the SOUL shattering is preparing itself for a LOAD, and it's a natural thing, the monsters have no reason to expect such a thing. That's like saying they have no reason to fight us because they KNOW we'll just reload until we win. (When they don't. Except maybe Asgore, but he was TRYING to get killed.)

"The more I look at it, the more I see the story is this complicated not because Toby wished so, but because we're trying to put sense into a story that makes no sense."

A lot of this is indeed our own fault-We've made many false assumptions and considered them to be canon, just as Newton did with his old laws before Einstien came around and revolutionized everything.

"Well, it's not fair to compare those two in the first place. Undertale works as a game and nothing but a game."

We're using the same methods, though, because our goal is to determine what the canon world is like. Undertale speaks of the outside world, therefore, we are supposed to take that canon information as, well.. Canon information.

"They said that everyone has settled on their own head canons, including them."

Oh, that. Then I suppose their later theories posted after that statement was just them stating what they already reached before they made that statement

"That there's plenty of evidence that it's a game, despite no one ever stating so."

Each of which is then given canon explanations, save for one, which we're still not sure about. Kind of like quantum gravity..

And they DO state there is an outside world, and there's plenty of evidence of that. We're best off going for the more definitive evidence.

"We all interpret the canon differently."

Which means we've already stepped into fanon. By canon, I mean actually going through the events specifically shown in the game. Then we build from there using nothing but logic and deduction. Oh, and obviously said canon evidence itself, and what we've proven before using the same reasoning.

"I disagree. ACT also presents a fun minigame, where you have to guess the monster's needs. I'd rather stick to the motto of this game, that fighting is not necessary."

A list of options isn't the same thing as an actual minigame that involves timing your attack. That's more like some weird quiz.

"Every ending is reversable. The genocide is the only one that permanently alters the game in some way, but you can get out of it."

Didn't we already establish that things from outside the game are NOT canon? That includes hacking.

"The true ending is the pacifist ending. Everyone is pleading you to go for it, including Toby himself, with that thing I just mentioned, that nobody has to die."

The main motif of the trailer is CHOICE. You CHOOSE their fates. You CHOOSE your path. Nobody HAS to die, but they still CAN die.

"Yes. But Frisk has their own personality. Their own preferences. And they prefer the pacifist ending, by the looks of it."

...What looks? They seem perfectly happy killing everyone too, considering their smile in the Genocidr run when encountering monsters.

"We've been over this already. They cannot be just a representation of us. If they were, we could assign them a name ourselves."

Henry Sticksman cannot be a representation of us. If he was, we could just assign hime a name ourselves.

...So, which ending of Escape the Prison, Steal the Diamond, and Flee the Complex is canon? (Oh, and that one with the airplane as well.)

"Flowey had no choice, though. He's seen everything and couldn't quit."

Kind of like gamers who like a game SOOO much they don't want to quit!

....You used the same faulty reasoning with Chara.

In all seriousness, I said Flowey was BETTER at the job than Chara. Of course Flowey's not a perfect player representation. He's just better than Chara at it.

"The player stereotype however is always chasing after greater stats. It doesn't care about having fun, unlike Flowey, it merely wants to finish the game as a challenge and then move on. Unlike Flowey. This is what Chara represents."

Yeah, but there's PLENTY of gamers who play for fun. Chara isn't always your typical player. But, Flowey fits it completely. He wants to see every ending, see what haplens if he does a certain action.

"I mean, destroying the world, leaving it, their main goal was to get maximum LV. Then, they could move on."

That doesn't imply literally destroying the world. Just leaving it. If anything, Chara and their message is a COMMENTATION on players.

"And actually, I think it does make sense. Undertale is not a game designed to keep you in, Undertake has an ending. What do you do when you win such a game, when you get the maximum LV possible? You quit, uninstall and move on to other games."

Not necesarrily uninstall...

"Yes, that's Chara. Frisk's movements are defined by our input."

Right. So, why can't we attribute the other cases to Chara as well?

"Yes, another strange phenomena, the box."

Yes, just like quantum fields are strange.

"The surface is just an animation. If we can't play it, it's not real. That's the meta logic."

And we only ever get a glimpse of the outside world in Gravity Falls. If we can't see the rest of it, it doesn't exist. That's the meta logic.

"You haven't gone full meta alchymist yet. We can still say that Frisk can't jump down a bridge even if they wanted to because something's literally holding them back, some sort of an invisible barrier."

Strange enough how there DOES appear to be some kind of borderlines in Waterfall..

"Conversely, we can explain everything meta using the overworld's continuous rules, and say that there's no box, no turns, no slashes, et cetera."

The dividing line is what is and isn't mentioned by characters within the game. Sans speaks of turns. He doesn't speak of invisible walls, and neither does anyone else. (In the game.)

"Oh please don't tell me you've never seen a fanfiction that would be based on a theory. Underline for example?"

Didn't you just say expanding would be breaking the canon rules? Yeah, that would include things like Underline.

"Technically, there's no determination. There's only ever the question, is there an HUD, or not?"

...There is determination. It's the substance Alphys used. Learn the lore.

And the HUD as well.

"You tell me. These days, everything is called an AU, apparently."

Do note I actually separated the fanfics from the AUs in my listings. If I meant to include them as AUs, I would have said "Absolutely every other AU ever?"

"The turns are a loose representation of that. Eventually, one person will stop attacking and another one will begin. That's how turns are defined. It's not about the number of attacks, it's about where they begin and where they end."

Yes, but there's also the idea of two prople attacking at the same time, blocking attacks, and, of course, MONSTERS DODGING.

"But I did look at his tweets."

You didn't provide those tweets.

"He spoke of a game inspiring him to make LV a bad thing. Him deciding not to make it mandatory to kill Toriel leading him to realize what he wants his game to be all about (or maybe that was in the art book, I don't remember)."

Oh, I DO recall where he said he felt bad for Toriel, and rewrote the story to make it possible to spare her.

The idea that foes you encounter aren't necessarily evil is the natural conclusion of this line, however. But never once did he say anything about the story overall. For him, the meta concepts is what was his passion. Not the lore. Besides, that also implies he had a concept for a story BEFORE the "Nobody has to die" aspect came into play.

"So tell me, why do YOU think that it was the lore? This is my hypothesis. Disprove it, or gather evidence for your own hypothesis first. Do not tell me to go prove it."

You don't have evidence for your hypothesis, so why do I need evidence for mine?

..Look. Discussing Toby isn't getting us anywhere. This is exactly why discussing the meta isn't a good idea.

"The HUD is acting like a construct of some sort. It's not universal, unlike magic, It messes with reality itself at the absolute basics, unlike magic (by which I mean, magic isn't creating inexplicable logical constraints that no one is questioning for some reason). It appears too surreal to be real, if you know what I mean. Magic is also imposing new rules, but at least the reality stays preserved with it. The HUD completely rearranges reality."

As if the HUD was a part of reality. Which implies the reality was designed by someone. Once again, this ONLY implies ingellegent design.

"No one ever runs away either. Weird. Either they're stupid, or it's the HUD doing this. And if it's the latter, it kinda implies that Sans somehow found a way to kinda break free from the HUD. At least so that he will survive."

Running away would be useless as well, if they can't exit the battle, and the slash can still get them.

"The armor?"

So what about after one takes his armor off? What about Muffet? What about knight knights?

"Because he's strong."

But he wants to lose. Weaker attacks are better for that.

"What does that mean?"

He'd give away that he's trying to LOSE. Earlier, I've already discussed the concequences of this, mainly involing Undyne showing up and becoming the empress and declaring war again.

"Maybe we could break the rule only because he broke it too. He tried to be clever, so the HUD was too."

So.. Is the HUD a thing or not?

"YES. So stop claiming that there is some hidden story already."

There being a hidden story isn't the same thing as literally everything being solvable. If there's even one hidden aspect that can be solved, that can be considered a hidden story.

"Tough luck."

Mine accounts for it, though. So.. You do the same.

"Well, here, we have something more sensible to explain that, and that is time travel. But I am still searching for a more sensible explanation of the box."

The place where the SOUL is magically sent to begin the monster attack. And the walls are physical, hence why the SOUL can't leave before magic allows it to get brought out of it again.

"Indeed. And if it's a universal design, then it's like in the movie Matrix."

No, no, no! It's like THIESM! You know, a world that a god or godess created? I've said it several times already! Intellegent design! Thiesm!

"But it's even weirder if it's a local design only, which seems to be the case. But then again, we have the issue of no one ever taking a note of it. Reality literally breaks apart, everything loses its sense, and no one ever raises any questions."

They DID take note of it. They had plenty of information from the war.

...Maybe that's another reason why they lost the war.

Their experiences from the war would be shared. From then, monsters would learn about these mechanics.

"If ordinary monsters took note of it, if it was strongly established that the HUD warps reality itself, I would believe it. But no. To them, it's like it doesn't even exist. And I don't think it's mind control, that's too easy to say. In fact, that's the number 1 go to argument for conspiracy theorists."

They don't take note of it for the same reason why we don't take note of gravity. It's common knolwedge. So no, no mind control. We clearly don't take note of how things mysteriously seem to get pulled towards Earth every time we drop somethin now, do we?

"But there is one way of resolving this issue. Suppose the HUD modifies the overworld too. Prevents us from leaping from a bridge, for example. In such case, the entire reality would be implied to be simulated and so, the Matrix explanation would apply. But I find it nonsensical for there to be a loose simulation toying with a real world (the overworld). If the HUD is real, then everything else must fall under its rule too."

Once again, magical construct. Save files are magical constructs too, you know.

"Well, that's precisely why we could attack him. Because he's got the laws of the HUD figured wrong."

Except we couldn't until he fell asleep, and he actually teleports us away from the walls if we try to do it sooner. So he prepared for that. Not to mention how he dodged that attack as well-It was CHARA'S attack that he failed to dodge. Why? Because if Chara's invisible, Sans CAN'T read their expression, and predict when they'll press FIGHT, or even see them do that.

"I cannot wrap my head around the idea that the HUD is so meta but nothing else is. The two concepts are absolutely incompatible with each other."

NEITHER is meta. Say it with me:Intellegent. Design. A theistic world isn't automatically meta.

"What produces it? Where does its root lie at? With magic, we already know the answer, souls. But why would a soul need to make text that's the same every time, or buttons, or the entire HUD for that matter?"

So that the essence actually knows what to do with it? If we couldn't read the buttons, we wouldn't know what they do. As for it being the same every time, it's easier to make a spell that works the same every time than for it to change. And what's the point of the font changing anyway? What evolutionary advantage is there for that?

"Unless it's not the soul that's generating it. In which case, what is it? Where is the root of this magic?"

The same root where the power of determination came from. They're linked, after all.

"That DT is soul-locked. Soul locked DT boosts magic. Only magic that makes a direct contact with DT is devoured."

Umm.. I was going off your hypothetical "DT=SOUL power" logic here. Power would be measured in that, not magic. I thought my extension of not being able to break the barrier would make that clear for you. I gues not.

"I meant a minor shock. I wasn't talking about that one big shock we got near the end of the game."

Considering that as you said, we're only meant to know that we're not Chara after the Pacifist Run, that implies both that the intro is more accurate than what we were supposed to give it credit for, and if we're not supposed to point out the inconistency at the start, we're probably not supposed to take note of the human magicians versus humans not representing themselves through magic either for some kind of twist.

"Both persisted."

Yeah, I guess she messed up there by injecting the body with DT rather than the SOUL.

"Well, this was the first time she's seeing us, so obviously. No one else mentioned this, because no one else formulated their sentences this way."

It wasn't. It was after she left.

"Case closed, when we go back after befriending them (with Toriel, after meeting her, because that's when we technically befriend her), we trigger these dialogues. It's always and only after we go back. Toriel simply adds in that she was feeling the same about the other humans too, if she gets this feeling with us, that is."

Toriel added in an old friend for the first time, and nobody else mentioned feeling this way with the other kids. Therefore, the only feeling attributed to the older kids is meeting an old friend for the first time. If the old friend is Chara, and "the first" is a reference that this is in fact a new human..

"I mean, that doesn't mean she met any other humans before, she was just being a bit silly. Which is probably the case, as how exactly can you be "customary" with just 7 cases tops?"

It's CONSECUTIVE cases though.

"How many of them passed before it became "customary" to her?"

..Two?

"Actually, I think if they just kept slipping by, she would get pretty pissed and wouldn't act so "nicely" towards us."

That's exactly how it turns out to be, though.

"YOU KNOW WHAT? SCREW IT!! WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU THAT STORY WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE? NNGAAAHH!!!!!"-Undyne

"Okay. How about creating light in waving patterns? That's something that magic would be able to do."

Alright, we know the Barrier is a sphere. So that means it acts as a dome on the top half.. Which would already be maniuplating the angles of light.

"Okay. Then I am allowed to say that the HUD prevents Frisk from leaping from a cliff."

And that's something that was never given reference to. Though do note I didn't say this one's impossible..

"Who says it was something that could be traced backwards in time?"

Every past event can be traced backwards in time when you literally have the power of time itself through the time stone.

"Events that happen can be traced, but seeing the images of a mind is something that time reversal doesn't give you. The mind doesn't only hold images of things that have happened and nothing else, don't be stupid."

Of course not. But that doesn't change that fact that the event happened, and this guy is the culprit. See the murder happening right in front of your eyes? See the person CLEARLY doing it? Yeah, he's CLEARLY the guilty party. Send 'em off to prison, the verdict is obviously Guilty.

What will you do to defend your client now, defense attorney? ...Oh wait, nothing. Because I already won the trial and proved your client was guilty!

...Seriously, when can that NOT solve a crime?

"Again, who said we're speaking of past events here? Time reversal is useless for future events, or things happening right now."

Well, future is a time period too, is it not?

"And it's not just about crimes, it could also be used to circumvent security measures to reach justice, by peeking into someone's mind to see what is hidden behind those measures you cannot otherwise breach."

Or go back to before the measures existed in the first place, and witness first-hand all the stuff they hid in there in their now no-longer secret area. Oh, and watch them make their passwords too. All that security is uselsss if you already KNOW the password.

...Welp, I predict a sudden jump in cyber crime less than a week after the power of the time stone would appear to us.

"So you're telling me Sans taught everyone how the HUD works and what to expect from an encounter with a human or something?"

Sans? Haha!! No, not Sans! Else everyone would also know how to dodge! I meant from those that lived the war!

Which reminds me of another piece of evidence supporting the canoncity of the HUD. Try threatening Gerson in the Genocide Route (or just look up the dialouge on the wiki. I mean, we already have seen all the evidence before, that's not spoiling anything.) He specifically makes note that he knows you CAN'T attack him here. He KNOWS that you can't attack shopkeepers. How is that not the HUD?