Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27136653-20180228205701/@comment-32182236-20180407195205

"But eyewalker makes no sense whatsoever. No one walks on their eyes. Plus, there's the fact that "Loox" sounds like "Luke." This IS a Star Wars reference. That's undeniable."

Loox literally is an eye. That's his species, and therefore, his family. After all, all of our family are humans. (Unles you mean biological classification, but we both know that's not what the narration means.) So they all walk on their eyes.. Because they ARE the eyes. The similarities to Star Wars is a coincidence, at least in-universe.

"As I said, perhaps there are other routes to New Home that utilize no elevators, but take too long to get through. I mean, there HAS to be some alternative way. What if the elevators malfunction? Oh that's right, the monsters make no engineering mistakes according to you. Yeah, no. Everyone makes mistakes. And there for sure were routes before the elevators happened; as I've explained, it is improbable for the area to be a one massive cliff all the way across. In fact, Waterfall is leveled with New Home, so Hotland is more of a pit. As I said before."

Actually, there WERE mistakes here. And we already KNOW what happens if the elevators malfunction, because that actually happened within the game:

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5b2xkcTVISmZpLUU/0B6gS2LPXdIc5dmNyUWVCQUpRRDQ/0B6gS2LPXdIc5STZsekVqN0dyeFk/0B6gS2LPXdIc5clo3a0gwUUJVb0k?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a

Pic 3:Being passed through.. Well, that alone isn't much evidence:Maybe the monsters just wanted to see Mettaton without visiting, or see him on their way to the CORE! But, the rest of the pictures I'll be using DO prove that this is the only path.

Pics 12-13:The hotel is doing its best to accommodate everyone TRAPPED because of the elevator not working. But why are they trapped if there's another way? Why aren't they just taking that route instead? The only explanation is that said route doesn't exist. This also adds new meaning to pics 10-11:That's WHY said monster won't be home today.

Pics 18-19:Because the elevator to the CORE isn't working, MANY more monsters are staying at MTT. Why? Because it's the closest to the city. But.. If they wanted to get to the city, why not take those other paths? Oh, that's right. They don't exist.

So it being the only path wasn't just a random thing I added in just to make my theory the most probable. It's literally proven witin the game, so it doesn't count. If the things you added were proven by the game also, that wouldn't count against you either. It's not an assumption if the game proves it true.

Speaking of which, due to the massive number of assumptions to make, what I've done was basically start from square one for my new theories. I started a series of mini-theories that starts from just the game itself.. So far I've proven Chara is the narrator.. And that's about it. Then again, it was recent that the series started. :3 Hopefully I'll be able to get deeper and deeper, until I eventually find out the true lore of the game. By only building off the game and what I had proven before, there shouldn't be any false theories in that series. I didn't even assume the player was Frisk! Of couse, I'm nowhere near here yet, so we'll be continuing the discussion here.

"Even simpler, there were just scaffolds and ramps at first, assuming the cliff was unclimbable all the way across. After all, you need a power source for the elevators. Also, "CORE" refers to the powerplant. Not to anything else. So what you're referring to isn't the CORE anymore."

Yeah, that's a possibloity now. We've already proven wood wouldn't burn at that height, so there's no more objections to this point.

"We are talking about a real-world picture here. That did not happen."

Let me clarify myself. Then you'll understand why that IS possible.

Life didn't necessarily emerge at the lowest possible altitude when they first walked on land. The humans who crossed the landbridge between Asia and North America didn't necessarily land on the lowest possible altitude. The humans who crossed the Altantic didn't have to either. They could have traveled, and found themselves above a cliff, rather than below it. After all, we're not BELOW the Grand Canyon, we're above it. And we weren't living below te Grand Canyon to start with either. Why can't the same be the case for this cliff? Who said that all humans came to America starting BELOW the cliff?

"For that, the phrase must have been contained in the trash, most likely in some computer. Alphys had to learn how to read from the memory, extract this specific passage, understand the context correctly and finally start using it frequently enough for the others, for example Flowey, to pick up on it too. Do you know how incredibly improbable that is? The chance of someone knowing this phrase firsthand coming from the surface (Chara) telling it to Asriel is much, MUCH higher. This is inarguable."

That's actually more probable than it seems. You know how anything can enter the barrier? Yeah, that includes the signals of the internet. The monsters already have what's known as the "Undernet", clearly derived from the internet. (So this one probably did indeed come after the humans.. After all, "Internet" comes from "Inter-network", and the Undernet is also an "internetwork".) So, Alphys could have measured thise signals.. Alphys just has to decode the binary language. But she's got a sample size of the entire internet, so.. That should be more than enough. Also, I have an even simpler ezplanation, that is probably more likely than both of our two (previous) explanations put together:Monsters derived it the same way humans did! We already know they have an internet, so, to see if they could reasonably make the same phrase, let's see how humans did it.

Before the internet, "trolling" only had one definition-It was fishing by using bait. You baited them, so that you could hook them, to catch them. It's basically an ancient version of "bait-and-switch", except the victim is always a fish, and.. The fish dies instead of raging.. Also it's not just ancient, it still goes on all the time today.

Now, to see if monsters even KNEW about fishing, let's look at how far back fishing existed for, and see if it existed at the time of the war. (Middle Ages)

Oh! Look at that! Fishing was around since The Stone Age! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_fishing

So there's step one of the process, already done! The humans did it while the monsters were still on the Surface! Therefore, monsters DO know about fishing!

Also, here's more direct evidence:https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5MXZYY1ZHbVJkNWs/0B6gS2LPXdIc5bHRvVnp0eUk4TjQ/0B6gS2LPXdIc5U0t1enBfUElfUzA/0B6gS2LPXdIc5REl3NXVRU3JNMnM?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a

There's literally a fishing rod there. Monsters fish too!

But.. What about turning that word into its modern definition? That certainly happened after the war. So, how and whyndid the monsters use the word this way? Well, let's ask again-How did the humans do it?

...It was actually simple reasoning, just like a lot of other slang phrases. "Trolling" by fishing is actually eerily similar to trolling in general.. You bait them.. To get them to come over.. And then switch it up on them. One of the most populat examples of is practice is the RickRoll, derived from the duckroll. Though, in recent years, John Cena has been used instead..

So, why couldn't the monsters have used the same reasoning?

"Because some are labeled L and some R, while being a part of the same system."

Hence why I changed my stance on the matter.

"I gave it as an example because it combined several directions at once and therefore, it fit the category. The fact that it never stopped didn't matter, as one could just add a stopping system and the problem would be solved. Besides, if you were to just google this, you'd immediately see you're wrong. They exist. And we aren't discussing thermonuclear reactors here either, just simple lifts. So I don't know why you would think there aren't any."

Alright. It's time for.. an objecton!!

If they could have just asded a stopping system.. Why didn't they? What's so useful about not having a stopping system? And, if there is a use to never stopping, why weren't there non-horizontal elevators that worked the same way? And, as the horizontal ones got discontinued, why not just undo the one fundamental flaw?

Also, yes. They do exist. In a test tower:https://www.dezeen.com/2017/07/12/thyssenkrupp-unveils-worlds-first-rope-less-sideways-moving-elevator-system-multi/

This happened in 2016, though news of it reached us in 2017. They still aren't used in practice yet, because they're in the testing phase. But if they were as simple as you said they were, why aren't they using THAT method?

I do agree horizontal elevators exist in the game now. But, now I'm using this argument for a new reason. This now proves that monsters really do have future technology!!

"I don't know of any definition of scaffolds that would specify wood only, but when I google this phrase, I find metal ones too."

It says wood and metal. As in, both of those materials make it up. Kind of like how wood and metal together make a door (and sometimes glass) What I meant was the wood part would burn up, leaving only the now useless metal part. However, this is now a moot point anyway, as it rested on the wood burning from magma, which has already been debunked.

"The elevators themselves don't prove anything. Not the concrete shape of the cliff, since we don't even know if the elevators run in a straight vertical chamber to begin with (but even if they did, that still wouldn't tell us anything about the cliff's shape), nor its shape across the entire length, since we don't know if the elevators run across its entire length (and they most likely don't anyways). But as you said, yes, there would have to be more walking involved. But since we end up on top of the castle wall (I mean, we do see the buildings in the background from a high elevation perspective), then either the elevator began inside of the cliff if the cliff isn't straight, or the elevator itself isn't straight, as you yourself admitted just now."

Which was exactly the argument I've been using. It was why I believed it HAD to be vertical. After all, it couldn't have began inside the cliff. However, we've proven that the elevator can be vertical too, debunking this point. That's why I no longer argue the cliff was straight. It more than likely wasn't.

"That's a problem that applies to everything. And magma powerplants just aren't so common here. For monsters however, it would be the only way, so they would try extra hard."

True. But first, they would need to develop all the technology that's required to make the plant in the first place. The fact that they suceeded in making the CORE means they also had all the technology that would be required to make such a plant. This boosted the monster level of technology by a LOT.

"All I see is a black void around the pool of magma that could be filled with safe alternative routes."

It's a void. No ground.

However, my argument has changed. See the post about the monsters actually being trapped, which serves as direct evidence for my claim here. No more wild speculation, the game itself says this is true.

"How do you know that it was meant for education though? Lots of historical documentations were made to remember and recall the events, not necessarily to be easily understandable to the young. And if it is as detailed as you're saying it is, then it must be an all-encompassing encyclopedia and not just a simple history book, contrary to what the title says."

Parts 6, 7, and 8 prove it IS as detailed as I'm saying. But, they were required to understand history. Parts 7-8 are about SOUL absoprion, explaing why Asriel was able to cross the barrier then, but yet everyone else is still trapped underground, and can't just do what Asriel did. I'm sure if you left out the knolwedge contained in these volumes, and just said to someone who doesn't already have that knolwedge, that Asriel crossed the barrier, and the humans were scared, a lot of questions would be raised. The book answers them for you. "If Asriel left, why can't we?" Because Asriel had absorbed a human SOUL, giving him enough SOUL power to leave. Volume 6 explained why the monsters couldn't just heal Chara of their sickness. They're not experienced with the matter, and therefore, can't just cure it with magic. That's also why it was "unfortunate"-That's why Chara died.

"Which is again more proof that this is no encyclopedia meant to explain the basics too. It's just a compilation of documentations written by (most likely) multiple authors throughout the years, and whoever compiled it didn't want to leave any of it out, meaning, things unrelated to history wound up in it too. And the fact that not all info is contained in them shows that they bothered to make no more research than this, further proving my point."

No, it's evidence that the book won't explain things not needed for history. Why would we need the fact that humans can't represent themselves through magic to understand history? What historical event does this correlate to? You see, the book was for history, and what you need to understand it. Anything else is left out. Volumes 6, 7, and 8 were still tangentically related to history, as I argue above.

"So it can't be what you're saying it is. Either you explain everything you can, so that the learner understands as much as possible, or you don't."

Or, you explain everything the learner needs to know to understand history, but not random things that don't help achieve that goal whatsoever, like I argue above.

"It was an unnecessary remark directed at their supreme leader. It's not something that belongs to a school book. School books would undoubtedly glorify the royalty. But we all laugh at our politicians at home, don't we?"

Not every educational book is meant for school. After all, as you pointed out, this was in a library. There can be educational books that aren't biased towards government, because they're not meant for school. Yet, they're still educational at the same time, meant to explain everything you need to know to understand the subject. Take for example, Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time". THAT'S the kind of book I argue these were.

"The title says monster history, so that's what we should expect. So if we see something unrelated to monster history, rather than trying to stir up a paradox, we should be looking for a rational explanation."

And that's exactly what I did. My expkanation is that these passages actually weren't stritcly unrelated to monster history, and therefore, there is no paradox.

"If it isn't just monster history, it makes more sense to argue that whatever we saw was just a footnote."

Which is possible, excpet the footnote would have to be in the same book as the source. Therefore, the Volume 6 footnote must still be explaining something in Volume 6.

"And then I added, that due to how subjective some of the parts are, this wasn't meant to be a strictly learning material, but it's probably just a compilation of knowledge about their history, which implies that different parts were written at different times."

The only "subjective" thing in the series is that Asgore is bad at names. Which is practically a fact anyway.

"I've seen multiple books doing footnotes at the end of chapters. If it's consistent, one could always go to the end to check for something they don't understand. Now that I'm thinking about it, that is the standard procedure for most books and educational magazines actually. One can go straight to the topic that way, since the footnotes are not the topic discussed."

Yeah, this could in fact be the case. But remember, it's the end of the chapter. You can't just put it in the next book. So my timeline of the books still stands-Chara's death was in Volume 6-athe footnote was probably at the end of Volume 6, or the end of that chapter.

"I'm talking about Toby here, not about ancient alchemy. Toby wrote these for a reason, and he scrapped many of these for a reason too. Understanding why may just help us understand what could be written in those missing volumes, and whether the individual parts really are ordered chronologically or not. Think outside the box for once, sheesh."

You're just wildly speculating about Toby, just like ancient alchemers. They believed the universe, and everything about it had a meaning. They wildly speculated that water, fire, air, and earth were the four elements, likely due to them being the most prominent, fitting what we now call the four states of matter, and that their colors (except for invisible air) matched the four hues. They would not test their theories. All alchemy was is guesswork. Planet alignments, full moons being cursed, to the point where you could actually use being full-mooned as a defense, and it would actually work-You'd get away scot-free! (If the moon was actually full during the crime, that is.) Witch trials.. Alchemy was not a good time. It all came from assuming there was a meaning to everything. That everything was orderly. We can't just use this speculation. We have to think within the game. I mean, Toby had us name Chara for a reason, right? Are we actually Chara? Does "Coolskeleton95" ACTUALLY mean Papyrus was born in XX95? We can't just arbitraily assign meaning to where there is none. You're making the same mistake as the numerologists. Besides, who said Toby wrote those volumes at all, and didn't just skip to Volume 4 to represent the fact that a lot of history went by between the two?

"Because the books seem to contain all the important things that we learn later on in the game. Taking the time range, we can guess what the volumes 2 and 3 contain. The guess is, that they contain the most important events of that time range, which Toby later decided to scrap in favor of a better storytelling method. There's no reason why they should contain unimportant information, when you look at it from Toby's point of view. These were meant to explain something vital to the plot, just like the rest."

We shouldn't look it from a point of view we don't have knolwedge of. It reminds me of the case where someone made a poem about a snowflake, and everybody else assumed it was secretly about suicide.. We can't just do stuff like this! To find out what Toby meant, we need to look at the game in question first, and solve its story, then compare that story to the real world. After all, Toby was inspired by Earthbound to make this. Does that mean Sans is Ness? I mean, there's a lot of similarities between the two, and Toby wouldn't just give Sans the same "shortcut" ability for nothing, right?

"All I'm doing right now is looking at it from an out-game point of view. Each volume contains only what we see in the game, since that's exactly how long Toby each of those volumes made."

Or are they? Toby very well could have written at least a draft of the rest of the volume, so that he can create the context for what we DO see. Once again, stop making assumptions about Toby. Let's just go with what the game says.

"If Toby wrote about Chara, it wasn't in the volumes that we've seen, since if it was, we would, logically, see it in them."

Maybe he didn't write about Chara, period. Their story was exlained in New Home, after all. Or, it was in the folumes, because we don't see the full volumes, and nothing says Toby couldn't have wrote what we couldn't see. After all, Volumes 2-3 we can't see, and you seem to argue he wrote those, because of a gap from 1-4. I see a similar gap, between 1 and the war mentioned in the plaques.

"Ergo, he wrote it in a different volume which he then erased from the game's files. Though, with how chaotic the strings are, it is possible that Chara's story could have been merged with one of the other volumes, but probably not, because Chara's story is quite long, so it would undoubtedly be split up and moved into a standalone volume. After all, volumes 6 to 8 are kinda continuous and yet, they're not merged into one."

Chara's story is Volumes 6-8. All three of these volumes have something to do with Chara's Story. Volume 6 was Chara getting sick. Volume 7 had to do with the fact that monsters can absborb human SOULs, explaining how Asriel did such, while Volume 8 goes over his death.

"And yet you seem to be adamant that horizontal elevators don't exist."

Which is a falsifiable claim. All it takes is one horrizontal elevator that works, and that's it! In fact, you managed to do just that, and I don't use this argument anymore! However, making an unfalsifiable claim, and beliving in it.. Then you truly will never know if it is false. Besides, read the rest of the quote. You've stepped into the realm of magic. You're adding new conspiracies and discounting evidence just to keep your theory possible. That's not scientific. I'm saying it doesn't exist. It's best to say it doesn't until there's evidence it does-Especially since the evidence we do have is against the latter. We need to use the plot itself, real evidence, not just discounting them as plot holes just because they don't fit a hypothetical "meta".

Is there, or is there not a teapot orbiting Mars right now? Oh, and by the way, it's invisible, and intangible. (Russel's teapot) Oh, and any evidence against its existence that has been discovered is actually an illusion by the Illuminati, who is untraceable.

You see? This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. If there's evidence in the game, we should actually take it as evidence, instead of making unwarranted leaps of logic, just because the evidence doesn't help tell a story. You're making the same mistake as alchemists this way, who would accuse anyone who was abmornal according to their theories of being witches. In our case, you're accusing any evidence that's against your Toby meta-theory of being plot holes. ...Can you show me the rules of your "plot hole trials"?

"That's inductive reasoning. Inductive reasoning of a sample size of 2. Also, don't you dare claim that no other compilations exist. There are others."

Like...?

"Saying that I can't present proof that there are others proving that there really aren't any is like saying that quantum mechanics aren't real, just because I can't explain it to you."

You could show the double-slit experiment, and show how classical physics doesn't fit with it, and show how it fits the wave function. Go on, look for them. Maybe you'll find that "Black Swan".

"Or that the Earth is flat, just because I cannot disprove someone's idiotic claim about some star dome and horizon perspecive bending, because they explain it using their own made up rules."

I'm only saying these books follow the rules. Like how light waves follow the rules of the earth being round. I didn't even mention extra things-I just showed the two most popular compilations to ever exist (and possibly the only ones) and poimted out how they use the original names, instead of the numbering system you propose. Go on. If there are really that many books that break it, I'm sure you can find at least 1. After all, we found the Black Swan, right? Who knows. Maybe we'll find that a very tiny percentage of the people who live on Earth are actually aliens. (Though I doubt that) After all, we haven't proven the "rule" that all life on Earth must come from Earth, right?

"Listen. I want a rule. Not a list of books that obey the said rule."

Those were the two most popular ones, if others existed. They would be the ones to inspire the others, if they existed. I didn't just cherrypick two random ones. Those were the only two I know of, and they're the only two that are widely known.

Unless you count the Canterbury Tales, but we have no evidence they were separate books, and even if they were, guess what-That follows the rule too!

"Show me a rule that explanations of a chapter must preceed a chapter."

It's not a legal rule, persay, but it's the best approach. That's the only way for the reader to not be utterly confused when they read the chapter. The reader must be able to understand the book to learn from it. So, if the explanation came afterwards, the writer failed in doing their job.

"If the discussed topic requires more fundamental knowledge that's too big to explain in a footnote, you probably need a different book to learn it. If it's small and insignificant enough to be included there, it shall be included there, usually at the end."

Maybe it was at the end! My only real point was that Chara's story was in Volumes 6-8. Where in each specific volume I never specified. I just said it couldn't be in a LATER book. Also, wasn't this section about whether or not compilations keep the original names of the books they're compiling?

"None of my books assume that I cannot read or do basic arithmetic. That's my inductive proof. From the hundreds of books I've read, none started from the very basics, unless I've specifically picked a book that's all about the basics."

And that's just it. It started from the very basics, because of deductive proof-Volumes 6-8. Besides, the fact that they named their new home "HOME" (Volume 1) is basic knolwedge. Enduring harsh snow, rainfall, and hot lands.. (Volume 4) Anybody who owns a map on the Underground would know this. Anybody who was ever taught geography of the underground would know this. So why put it in? Oh wait. (Yep. It's about the basics. It WAS picked to explain the basics.)

"So again, the fact that the monster history contains stuff about monster biology and satirical remarks shows, that it is not meant to be an educational series for schools."

Never said it had to be for schools. Just that it was educational. Like I said, it's closer to Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time".

"So he's concerned and knows a lot. That still doesn't mean he wrote anything. Heck, this sole information doesn't even tell us whether he can even write. We of course know that he can from other things. But there's absolutely nothing to tell us whether he really wrote that series. I would bet that some of his notes were used in it, but I wouldn't bet that he was the one to collect and compile them too. There's just not enough proof for that, and I like to stick to my razor of Occam"

There's also NO proof whatsoever that it wasn't him. Also, he didn't "collect and compile" them. They weren't just random notes. Gerson's the most likely candidate, so Occam's Razor would have us say he probably is the one who did it. The compiler and author being one and the same is the simplest, after all.

"What events? As I said, one could remember the vague details and the biggest events, but to remember enough to fill several books all at once after a thousand years of not writing a single note simply isn't possible."

It wasn't necessarily all at once. He only had vague plans of what was next. He was going to write about monster history-No doubt it took him a long time to remember what came next. But, history books usually take a long time to write anyway, there wouldn't be too much of a relative delay. Also, not all of ot came from him. Volumes 7-8 simply reworded information that was in the plaques. He could very well have copied the plaques, and used them as the notes he needs. Nobody said he couldn't have done any research on the matter to remind himself!

"Though, keeping notes and then rewriting everything would be an acceptable explanation. But then again, I already stated what I think about Gerson writing all of these himself. And also, if he's the compiler, then there's no science involved (because he's not a scientist).

Luckily, all the "science" was just the basic stuff. Like monsters not being experienced with human sickness, and SOUL absorption. Nothing about the complex CORE, nothing about the timelines.. Though he does have some uncanny knolwedge about the world's workings anyway:

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5cTY4TVhRUGhhTEU/0B6gS2LPXdIc5S3A3SWRwM0ZpSWs/0B6gS2LPXdIc5VEFOZnhMXzZVQ1U/0B6gS2LPXdIc5eDJ0aEt3RmppS00/0B6gS2LPXdIc5em5uVFBhdW5XdUU/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Q2dCT1dhVU1DR1k?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a

Wonder where he got that from.. He KNEW you can't attack a shopkeeper in the shop window..

"He doesn't appear to be dedicated enough to this subject for us to start drawing such conclusions from him. As I said, he chose to run a shop."

Yeah. A shop. To get rid of the junk there. Just like Bratty and Catty. This doesn't have to be his primary passion.

"Perhaps. But none of this matters. Either they remember the war, or they don't."

Well, the young adults. Some of the older ones, like, say, whoever the mother of Burgerpants is, would be living well within that 1000 year range. Some very well would have lived during the war, just like Gerson. They'd also be old like Gerson, though, unless this is Toby inversing things on us, which would make them not old at all. But, I'm not going to use Toby here. Gerson's lifespan is a normal lifespan. There were those who remember seeing the Surface world.

"He says that knowledge is the only reason he's survived for so long. I wouldn't dismiss this."

Strange. I was about to use the same quote to argue that Gerson was knolwedgeable about the world, and would know all the science stuff in Volumes 6-8. Hmm... Alas, what he meant is, that's why the six humans before us and after Chara never defeated him. It's easy for a human to kill a monster, after all. Unless you're like Gerson or Sans.

"Yes, it's obvious he made fun of plenty of things this way, by putting everything upside down. So this does surprise me. Why did he choose a turtle as an image of an old person?"

Because him living that long would be old by his standards. A turtle that's 12 years is still very young, unlike, say, a dog, who would be as old as we see Gerson here, if not dead. 1000 years being old by turtle standards, but young for everyone else. Turning the whole turtle thing upside down.

"Perhaps, he had no intention of doing the reverse thing here. You can never be sure on anything."

Which is why we shouldn't be using Toby as proof here, and should just use the games. I'm okay with saying that the turtle isn't nexessarily the one with the shortest lifespan, and that the favt with a turtle means nothing. Really, we shouldn't be using this as evidence period-Neither for my side, nor yours. We should just use it as evidence that monsters CAN indeed live long enough to remember the wat, since that's exactly what Gerson did.

"And inverting absolutely every preconception and superstition that exists out there would be very difficult. Impossible even, as the context may not make any sense that way."

In this case, it does though. And of course, we shouldn't say everything's inverted. Just like we shouldn't say it's just like the preconception and superstition.

"It's true, Toby made fun of many things, but there's nothing to show that he did it here as well."

Also nothing to show that he didn't. Therefore, this is a stalemate, and we shouldn't use the fact that's a turtle as an argument period. Not to say monsters can live for much LONGER than Gerson, and not to say that Gerson's special for looking like a turtle.

"Nothing to show that everyone can get exceptionally old, except for Gerson. We simply see that Gerson is very old here. That's it."

Nothing to say that Gerson is special either. So why say he's special? You say we can't say the red SOUL is special, despite the fact that our SOUL shatters unlike the other six, that the others saving and loading would raise questions on how they lost to Asgore, and yet, at the same time, you argue Gerson must be special just because he looks like a turtle? Why?

"So I said that this is perhaps why he chose to use a turtle monster here, to further emphasize his age. I'd say there's nothing wrong about that."

Read my rebuttal above.

"If you mean history by that, then there's Monster History for that. If you don't mean that, then I can guarantee you the monsters don't learn solely from the Monster History series, but actually have multiple subjects, just like in regular schools in the real life. If that is the case, the Monster History series isn't meant for teaching. And besides, not every historical book you may find in your local library is an educational book. Most aren't anyways. You usually buy those in a bookstore."

I was talking about Monster History in that quote. Monster History was meant to explain what you need to know to understand history. Of course not everything comes from that book, I already gave examples of things that aren't explained in that book, because they aren't required to understand history!

"That's what I said."

Okay, let's take it to the next step. There'd be more histoical events that impact the whole. This would mean that you'd nee more pages, more chapters, and eventually more volumes to explain all of these events, right? That's why the move didn't happen until Volume 4.

"Not necessarily. We're not talking about entire locations here. So events that involved only a few monsters still count."

True. But they'd be known more, since the local news is the same as global news when there's only one city. Perhaps to the point that they could fill up more volumes..?

"You think that, not them. We don't know anything about what the humans and the monsters thought. So I take it that the monsters at least hoped that there would be an exit somewhere, and that the barrier only protected the main entrance."

We do, however, know which thoughts are reasonable, and which ones are not. And assuming that the humans just randomly chose a mountain without scouting for escape routes or accounting for monsters just digging out after a long battle (though short war:And this isn't paradoxal anymore-I found why! Most wars consist of many battles. Battles are a part of a war. The intro says a long battle-Not a long war. Therefore, if we combine the two together, there was just one long battle in a rather short war.) is just crazy. Now, there are crazy people around (i.e:Flat Earthers) but their percentage is rather small.

"Remember though! They also mentioned nothing getting in."

This was because after all these years, they didn't see a human fall. They used induction.

"Since stuff can regularly fall through the barrier as if there was nothing, this could have meant only one thing if they were sure on that. That there were no natural openings at all."

Or, they were inductive. After all, a lot of them believe their SOUL is made of love, hope, and compassion, and Asgore not having hope debunks this.

"And, as I've explained, the New Home entrance most likely doesn't count due to how it behaves. You can't see the barrier elsewhere, but you can here."

Because the barrier is closer here than anything else. We can't exactly see a light-show when all we have is a sepia intro where the barrier is less than 30 pixels wide.

"So the monsters probably thought that even though it isn't caved in, nothing can get through it anyways."

Which is correct. I say they used induction to say this applied for ALL of the barrier.

"Which, as I said again, implies they thought the barrier is blocking only the part that they entered through."

No, it ONLY implies that nothing can get through the barrier. If this rule applied to all the holes, the statement would still be correct. The monsters had no reason to assume this particular hole was special. If they believed nothing can get through that hole, they had reason to belive nothing can get through other hypothetical holes either.

"True, they could just dig their way out then, but who knows if the one who wrote those plaques really thought of this back then. I mean, picking solid rock is definitely harder than searching for a way out."

Which is why my real argument lies with the holes.

"But assuming they did, I think we should come up with an alternative explanation for all of this for the time being."

It would have to not contradict any evidence that exists within the game, though. Also, why should we assume they thought that one place was special?

"Seeing the barrier traverse through the walls? Only if you have a magical X-ray vision or something. From their POV, they would just see the entrance getting sealed. Unless the spell could be visible through the walls somehow."

No, seeing the barrier start as a visible sphere, then dissapear into the walls. Or, if it starts off small and grows to its current size, seeing the outer rim of the barrier grow the point where it, once again, dissapears into the walls.

"Then they would have went back and erased them. There's no way they forgot about them when they lied so close to the place where they found the proof that their prior assumptions were wrong. Unless they cut off the expedition there, and then did another one x years later, taking an entirely different route to the dump. That's the only way I can see them forgetting about the plaques they wrote during the expeditions."

They would literally have to fall down a hole to get to the Trash Dump. Just like we did. If they went down that hole, it'd take a long while just to get back up. It'd be the Hotland cliff problem all over again, though this being their first time. They may not have wanted to take the time to build a giant scaffold just to go back and correct the plaques. In fact, we know they didn't, because we would have seen the scaffold if they did. Though that does leave us to wonder how they got back to HOME to report this... Then again, no plaques exist in the hole, either-They don't resume until a good while after the hole. So, if other paths exist, they more than likely didn't enter the garbage hole at all during the expedition.

By the way, the plaques about anything being able to pass through? You yourself had suggested that later on, someone wanted to correct that one, but not the plaque about there being no entrances or exits, back when this point was about whether or not the plaques were written at different times. I'm going to use this suggestion as my explanation as to why the plaque about anything being able to cross the barrier existed in the first place.

In fact, we are ALSO trapped past the hole until we meet the River Person. But, the River Person can take us steaight to Hotland through a river, without having to endure the harsh climage of Snowdin-Therefore, they could not have taken this route, as that would contradict Volume 4.

"So you're saying they didn't even try?"

They did. But they were blocked by Snowdin.

"As I said, they would have scouted the terrain for better hideout places. They wouldn't stay in the very first area where the humans could find them easily."

They wouldn't.. Unless there was no way NOT to.

"As for their level of technology, that's completely debatable. All we know is that they were sealed a long time ago. So their technology should be by all means of logic comparable to that era."

Exactly. Very ancient. Pretty sure during the Middle Ages, we couldn't live in a place as old as Antartica. So neither could monsters with the same level of tech.

"Also, didn't you say above that the monsters didn't think the humans left any 'accidental' holes open? Why did you say here that the monsters thought they did then?"

Simple-They weren't "accidental". They were accounted for. They were all sealed too. I've been saying this several times as well-Thay humans would have sealed ALL the holes. So yes, they do think maybe other holes could have existed. It's just that they would be sealed just like the one they fell through, and therefore, are not viable escape options. As in, nothing can enter or leave THOSE holes either. Which is why when they discovered things COULD, they altered it.

No entrances or exits. Because nothing can enter or exits. Because of the barrier sealing the underground. Of course, it was later discovered that they can enter, but still, that's more than likely what the theory was prior to that discovery.

"Exactly. But we don't know that. As I said, they wouldn't bother building an entire city there, with stone buildings and architecture and whatnot. They settled there permanently, meaning, they didn't want to continue further. Else they wouldn't bother. So the real question now is, DID they really come from that direction? If they came from the New Home end, they wouldn't continue further, because, well, they couldn't. The ruins is the last area. And Home spans the entirety of that area."

I do agree that they didn't intend on going further. I explain why below this, so let's carry it over to that section. Also, as I said, Home doesn't span the entire area of it. It doesn't truly begin until you get past all the puzzles. All the houses we see is a birw from the Toy Box room. Looking outwards in the distance, we see they're north of our current position. This places them east of the castle. But there were none south, and the giant stricture of the Ruins wasn't meant to house any monsters at all. So, why did the monsters waste all that space if it wasn't for puzzles to begin with? And if it WAS puzzles to begin with, then why, when they were sure no human would fall from that direction?

"How did they know that there were holes on the other side though? Because they scouted it?"

Visible from the Surface. Also, how would they know there weren't any, and be sure that continuing to explore was a good idea, when they've already traveled a lomg distance away, and would set up puzzles to stop the humans?

"As I said, there is no reason they would stay in Home, else they were absolutely sure that that is the safest place they can be."

Let's see-Snowdin, where only snow monsters can live, Waterfall, with little to no land (though that'd only matter if they could somehow traverse Snowdin with Middle Ages technology), Hotland, that's too hot for all but a few monsters (We couldn't even traverse terrian like that in the 19th century), and New Home, with an entrance even bigger than the Ruins hole. ...Yeah, let's go with the Ruins/Snowdin border. The puzzles should protect us.. After all, where will we put all the houses without the land? There's only room for one small village! We want a city! A city to call HOME! We also don't want Queen Toriel getting her royal dress wet all the time.

"And if they knew both sides had holes, they would stay in Waterfall, which is still more safe, because even though it has holes, there's water going through them. So if the humans wanted to attack, they would most likely choose one of the more comfortable routes."

Yeah.. But do they have the technology and room to survive there permanently?

"Yeah. If you're gonna kill the monsters, you don't need the barrier anymore afterwards, and you also have to get out somehow afterwards."

Yeah, I don't think you'll be getting out through that hole. *points to Ruins Hole from far below* Even going down there, you're going to get injured. Here, try this one-*points to the freely walkable New Home* You're welcome for the tip, Rrummeerd Arahc. You can now commence your plan to gather the monster SOULs necessary to.. Wait. We're not the ones trapped underground!

What? Oh right, yeah, we don't want them using our own souls against us.. But.. how will we head off to the mountain without suspicion? Wait.. Turn off the tape? ..okay.

"Because they found no holes. If there were holes, they wouldn't be sure on that. And a single thing falling through one of them and they would know they're wrong. But they were VERY sure. It's not just melancholic denial. They STATED that the underground has no holes, which is the reason why no one has fallen yet. They had PROOF."

No, they STATED that there was no entrances. And that can't mean holes, because of New Home. Therefore, it must specifically mean entrances. And if they believed any holes would be sealed just like the first, since, well, the Barrier is a sphere, then they would also believe no entrances exist, because according to those rules, no entrances COULD exist.

"As I said above, I think they perhaps thought that nothing can get through that one either way, since unlike the other holes, this one has the barrier visible inside it."

The only other hole we see is the Ruins hole, which is so small that we wouldn't notice a strange light pattern. We do, however, see a white light, the same color as what we see in New Home. So, why wouldn't the monsters assume the rest of the holes work the same way? After all, that's a much more common and reasonable assumption than saying flashy light mean nothing can get in. If anything, they should assume that means stuff CAN get in, but not out, and that flashy light show is the magic making it do that. (My assumption, however, is that the flashy light show is BECAUSE nothing can enter the surface through it. Kind of the hypothetical "white hole", or, if you prefer, what looking out from the inside of the event horizon in a black hole looks like.)

"And as for the other holes, they either weren't there, or they were, but the monsters didn't notice them. I'm talking about the Waterfall right now. Of course they would notice the hole in the ruins (so it wasn't there most likely)."

Or, maybe they were there all along, and the monsters thought they worked just like the first one. Pretty common inductive argument.

"Because all humans can be dangerous. Building puzzles WAS necessary."

So it's totally necessary to stop the 0 humans who knew about that hole and decided to attack the monsters through it...?

"And as I've explained already, it's nonsensical to argue that Home sits close to the border. Home is a city, not just that one room accessible in the game where we see the buildings in the background. What however does make sense to argue over, is why was the royal home built near this border."

Do note that the entrance to the ruins is catacombs full of puzzles, though. Also note the distance between the end of those caverns and the Royal Palace. Accesible or no, the catacombs take up more than half of the space. As I argue earlier on in this post, the most likely position of Home is slightly east (and maybe a little south) of the Royal Castle. All that space wasted on puzzles that they didn't even think they were going to have to make because they weren't aware of the hole in the Ruins? Yeah, that was a bad move, even for Asgore.

"Truthfully, I can only guess. Perhaps, they started building the city from the very end, and made the royal home last, so it sit the closest to the border."

It wasn't just closest to the border. It was less than 30m away from the border. Walking out that basement door takes you straight to Snowdin, after passing through another door that's only around 10-20 Frisks in length.

"After all, they also did the same for New Home, and there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason for that, except maybe an easy access to the surface for the king, or the first line of defense for the monsters, etc."

At New Home, it makes sense to place New Home at the border. They didn't fear the monsters any longer. And, as you said, the king would probably be the first to leave. He'd be the one leading the expedition of the Surface, after all. Hence, his palace being closest to the hole.

"But my main point is, that arguing over the position of an entire city is nonsensical. And as for the positions of the royal homes, they were most likely chosen based on some arbitrary decision. Since there's so many possibilities, so many reasons they could have had for doing it the way they did, I think it may have been a random decision."

Well, let's take a look at strategy. This is what monsters believed to still be possibly wartime, so thier moves had to be tactical. So, where's the best place to put the captial, the royal palace, where the king lies? Probaly BEHIND where all the guards are supposed to be. Not at the very front where he can be the first target and killed, leaving the monsters without a ruler. Tell me, what is the tactical, wartime strategical advantage of putting the Royal Palace at the very front, not even leaving much room to place guards? Is the one-way door supposed to be the guard? And, if so, why did they have to move to the Ruins in the first place? Why not make a door like that at the end of New Home instead?

"Which is what I meant. But Chara wouldn't have to do this in front of everyone. The monsterkind would just believe Asgore's word."

Well, he probably is too bad at names to come up with a name as creative as "Chara".. Plus, he is the king of the Monster Kingdom, after all. Even Queen Toriel agrees! Perhaps we can return to the era where humans and monsters loved together! ..Wait. How exactly is Chara going to convince the other humans? ..Well, we're still underground, we shouldn't have to worry about that. Wait. Chara. You have a plan? ....It's a secret? (We both know what the "plan" was...)

"Lastly, I can see what you're implying. I don't think there were no plans to move before Chara came. It would be just too weird. Why relocate because of a single human? All that struggle through the different areas of the underground for what exactly?"

Exactly. What, were they going to try to break the barrier? Why not wait for another six humans to fall down first? After all, while we could just kill Chara, why? What did they do to us? It's not worh killing an innocent human.. Especially simce by doing so, we're giving them a reason to attack.

...What do you mean, "We'll be free before you know it?" Chara?

...Ookay then.

"They could have just stayed where they are, else there was another reason for it, for example, Home being unsuitable for living, after existing for so long."

Yeah, there was another reason. They didn't just move away RIGHT when they stopped fearig the monsters, and because of that, but that did have a great impact. It's what convinced them continuing on, even as they approch more holes, would still be safe.

"But they definitely stopped fearing the humans because of Chara."

That's one human out of many. Maybe some mean human will fall down next.. How do they know that kind of human won't attack? I mean, nearly every other human was anti-monster.

"So they just forgot about them? Lol, who wrote those plaques, Gerson?"

Who knows! Maybe! It'd explain how he was able to copy them almost word for word without getting into any trouble!

...Probably not though. It was still relatively short since the war happened. He was a lot more likely to still be a warrior back then.

"As I said, unless they stopped the expedition there and did another one x years later by taking a completely different path, I see no reason why they wouldn't just go back and quickly fix their enormous misconception, since the two, the plaques and the dump, are so close to each other."

Same response as what I said last time in this post.

"It's just a single door-sized frame."

The door TO the hole is just a single door-sized frame. Not the hole itself. It's like the Snowdin/Ruins border.

"If it is located on the same mountain, it must have been at the other end of it. Invisible to the monsters. Unless they knew about it beforehand. But then, they wouldn't be so quick to assume there aren't any holes, don't you think?"

The entrance to the hole. Not the ACTUAL hole, which is the giant cliff/hole we see in the ending. Also, they didn't assume there were no holes. They knew about this hole. That's WHY they didn't want to travel too far in the first place, remember? They weren't able to measure the distance, as that would take too long, but seeing the hole wouldn't.

"But this does make me question one more thing. The door frame. The barrier lies in front of it. Meaning, it itself lies outside of the barrier. How is such a thing even possible?"

Simple-It was created after the Barrier was destroyed, but before Frisk wakes up. We never see the door before Frisk wakes up, after all. Speaking of which, how did Asgore know your name was Frisk? Did Asriel tell him? If so, he would have no reason to say not to tell anyone about him, as everyone would already know Asriel was still alive, and would see him vanish.. Is the Dream Theory canon.. In Undertale?

"Perhaps it was about size. Perhaps they weren't large enough, which is why they thought no human will ever come through them. As for the big holes at the ends, we know that they are indeed large enough for a human to pass through them."

And thus, we need a different explanation. And once again, I have the same, very simple explanation-The monsters thought nothing could enter! Otherwise they'd count the hole they were banished through as an entrance!

"I always imagined that the king would send members of the royal guard as scouts, not himself. Ever heard of a king scouting or leading any expedition for that matter? Wars, maybe. Scouting, nope."

Now that I think of it more.. Perhaps many of those those "other monsters" I speak of were guards. As you said, guards would make good scouts, and, as I add, they especially should be there as scouts if the king's there. So, I believe Asgore lead some guards as well, while only the "fuzzy folk" actually settled into Snowdin, and so on, until they get to New Home. As the years went by, more and more monsters left Queen Toriel's kingdom of Home, and rejoined Asgore at New Home, until eventually, all that was left at the Ruins was Toriel, Asriel, and a very small number of monsters-The plan was to move everybody, after all. The two separate kingdoms was only temporary, for the transition. After all, the Queen and King do still need to get together, as I said before.. They need an heir, after all.

"Yes. That didn't move the monsters at all though (pun intended). As I said, moving was not something on the urgent list. It was their stone city, their permanent settlement for what I believe at least a thousand years."

While I don't believe they were there for that long, I do believe that was the plan. So.. I guess we can still go with that when analyzing the actions of the monsters.

"Yeah... perhaps it wasn't there back then."

Or, perhaps this is evidence that the humans did know about it, and the monsters had no reason to assume they didn't! The monsters didn't dig up that hole, and if an earthquake casued the hole to emerge, the place directly below the hole wouldn't be so smooth, especially not in Chara's time. This is because the rocks that crumbled to make the hole would have fallen to make that floor.. And the odds of it bring flat? About as low as the cliff that we now both agree wasn't vertical being perfectly vertical. In both dimensions, mind you-Mot just flat from left and right, but forward and backward. A flat plane. From a bunch of crumbling rocks. Chara, I sure hope you don't land on the sharp edges..

"That's sunshine. Imo the white part doesn't look smooth and weird enough to be the barrier. If the barrier is there, it is invisible."

What do you mean? It's less than 40 pixels wide. We wouldn't see the weirdness if there was any! (And that's ignoring the fact that the game uses graphics similar to the SNES era. Take that into consideration, and it's fewer than 10 pixels!)

"The visible barrier is quite clearly generating its own light."

How do we know this? Sure, it doesn't look like a window, but remember, light can't leave, since that's a thing, which is bound to the laws of physics. Sure, this might be what the monsters are assuming, which would explain why they don't use it as proof that something CAN get through the barrier (though they probably did at first when they were still fearful to justify their fear), but this whiteness glow could be due to the fact that it lets light in, but not out. Therefore, it acts as a theoretical "white hole", except there's only the horizon. (Not saying they do exist, they probably don't:But that's the best analogy I can give. It lets matter out, but not in..)

"A cliffside. The entrance most likely lies opposite to where everyone is staring. Sans walked into that direction near the end. Besides, the fact that the end contains a door and not some stairs leading up or something plays more towards the straight entrance possibility. Besides, if that dark area WAS the hole, they would probably need a ladder or something."

Okay, first. My exact quote was "If that's not a hole, I don't know what is". There was no it. I meant, if that's not a hole, I don't know what would BE a hole in that situation. It's indistunguishable from a hole, and they just left the barrier, making the hole now behind them. So if that's not a hole, I don't know what is in this scene. What would you consider a hole in the scene if that doesn't fit your definition?

Now, to the response to the argument. They were staring north, and the cliff/hole was directly south of around half the monsters This is evidence pointing to said cliff actually being the hole. The other monsters walked east, but Sans walks south (but not east, as that would take him right down the hole.) Why? Welp, it was probably a shortcut.

"Is it though? The part showing Chara definitely is. But does Chara remember the monsters getting banished? No, of course not. So the story of humans and monsters at the very beginning could very well be just a stylised myth, since there's no apparent person present to whom this part, assuming it is a flashback, might belong to."

So why is Chara giving us that myth? Why wouldn't they give us their take on the matter, which would more than likely be closer to the truth?

"And it goes like this for plenty of games, shows and stories. We first have the stylised intro, and then we learn the "truth". Heh, I mean, why would Toby bother adding the plaques, if they were obviously a lie? No no no, the intro is the lie here."

First off, Toby loves inverting stuff. The same could be the case here. Second, we should really stop using Toby. It only leads to chaos and endless debate that gets us nowhere, because all we're using is our opinions on the author that could easily be wrong. Third, while this isn't a point against you, as I proposed it only in this post, being after yours, I propse that there is no paradox:Neither is a lie. The intro says long "battle", and a battle is not the same as a war. Most wars have several battles. If there was only one battle in a war, it would be rather short of a war, don't you think? And that's exactly what I propose happened. There was one, long battle.. And that was the entire war.

"Fell through a walkable entrance, which got sealed of immediately afterwards with what looks like an impassable wall of pure magic."

Also known as:The Barrier

"Yeah, I still think the monsters thought it was meant to be impassable from both ways. Since the humans never entered directly through it."

I believe in this as well. It's just, I take it one step further, and say they thought this was the case for ALL of the possible holes, and therefore, there can't be any entrances or exits.

"The monsters would have no idea what's coming though. Remember, it's not like everyone knew immeditately what happened after the barrier broke. The Froggits didn't know, plenty of monsters reacted as if this was some news they've heard from someone, etc."

Fair point.

"And even if, where would they go? If the humans took it from that entrance that can be easily walked through, the monsters wouldn't be able to flee, since the other one is pretty... unclimbable. They wouldn't manage to get through it quickly enough."

Once you get to the Snowdin Forest, take advantage of the fact that it's a wide-open forest, yet also that trees block the line of sight of the humans. Perhaps you can outsmart them, and simply go around them, then start heading to the Surface world from New Home! It's a-.. wait.. Guys? Weren't you guys invading the undergound?

...*dust sound* (Now that I think of it, there'd probably be 2-3 humans blocking the doorway.. Making the plan moot.)

Alright, let's try again. The barrier will be lifted by seven powerful mages.. Just as strong as the ones who make the seal to begin with. That could take a while. ..Any way to get intel on the matter? Wait.. The barrier? What about it? ...Right.. Well, scratch that plan. We can't gather intel if it can't cross the barrier.. By the time it's broken to let us intercept the info, it'll be too late..

(We can't say they planned an escape on the unclimbable hole to make it climbable before the invasion either. After all, if they built a scaffold or carved stairs out of it, we'd see that in-game. And I am NOT going to create a paradox. So.. The tactical strategies end here, unless one of us thinks of more ways for the monsters to possibly win this war.)

...What are the odds that the monsters just didn't think of this possibility? Perhaps due to powerful mages like those being quite rare?

"Evident as in, guess? That's no evidence. Not to them, not to anyone."

It's evidence to the people who assumed black swans don't exist. It's evidence to the alchmeists. Sure, this wasn't a logical reasonal deduction, and turned out to be wrong, but that doesn't mean the monsters didn't use this fallacy.

"Build stuff to reach it ffs. If it was a possible exit, they would have undoubtedly tried something like this the moment they first saw it."

Hence why I argue it wasn't a possible exit. Never was, but it is now, due to the discover of the property of things falling in.

"And I was talking about going out here, not about stuff going in."

Well, my entire point was that the monsters believed nothing could get in. It's true that nothing can get out, and they may have tried this with the New Home hole at one point.

"If they saw that they can't go out, but light can go in, what else can go in?"

Other electromagnetic waves. Light can travel through the smallest of holes. Tiny little slits, errors within the state of the Barrier. And so can other waves like sound. But that's about where the proven things that can enter end. They also haven't proven that light can't leave.

"And you YOURSELF said how much they knew about science."

Just because elecrtomagnetic waves can travel through tiny slits, which could very well be errors in the Barrier, doesn't mean physical matter can. Light is not matter, it is a quantum wave-What we know as photons are "pieces" of that wave. Therefore, light coming through can only prove that other waves, and very tiny particles like electrons and quarks can go through. Also, I said they were scientific in nature, and discovered science at a much faster rate. However, they didn't start out ahead of us. They started out on par with us. It wasn't until 201X (aka:Slightly more than a century after the war) that they reached 90's level of technology. But, the explanation above should suffice.

"Alas, perhaps a leaf or something fell through that would then tell them that physical matter can indeed fall through."

And yet, we don't see this leaf in the actual game. I'm going with Waterfall proving it, as we DO see that happening in the actual game, and it's no doubt that the hole was there, because otherwise the terrian wouldn't still be discribed as "damp swampland" of Volume 4.

"Puzzles that halt a person for a minute or so. They should have blocked the path off completely."

What about the spike puzzle, but without Toriel making it easy for us? It would look like it was completely blocking the path.. Though, it is true they probably should have blocked the path off completely.. Specifically, from the very first door we enter (the one that we see even before we first meet Flowey) ..I wonder though, why didn't they? Both theories have this problem, because it's clear the puzzles were made to stop humans. Fearful or no, if you're going to stop humans, then actually stop them.

"Idk, Riverperson can see into the future, so that's how, probably."

...They can? I only see false predictions. "Beware the man who speaks in hands".. We never have to fight him. Why should we beware him, exactly? If you can tell the future, shouldn't you know that we'll never fight him?

"That implies the human magicians died creating this spell, using the entirety of their souls to create something that can only be countered with the same amount of power, ergo, seven whole human souls."

I agree with the latter part-They used all the power they had to make the barrier, and it takes the same amount of power-Seven WHOLE human SOULs of power, to break the barrier. The latter of those two being proven by the game itself. But, the Mages only would have died if DT was SOUL power. If it's not, they could still survive.. Though they'd essentially be powerless, until their "SOUL magic" replenishes. Because they just used all of it.

"Yes, but in a sensible way. She still hasn't lost her touch with reality. I'm pretty sure she can recognize humans in cartoons. When you look at the TV, you also see people in it, and you don't think that somewhere, there's pixels in the shape of Donald Trump floating about"

Of course I don't think there's pixels like that floating about. I know anime isn't real. I'm not saying it is. And I'm not saying I'm saying Undyne thinks it is-Two completely different things. (I also don't argue that thinking this is rational. If I did, I wouldn't call her leaps of logic twisted.)

Also, to clarify. I meant she thought the events in the anime were recorded, and those recorded events were what we see as anime. That's why I mentioned cameras. Of course she knows humans aren't pixels. She just thinks those pixels are the output of cameras recording real people. And sometimes, they are! Just.. Not in anime or cartoons... But rather, on the news.

"She took no insane leaps. YOU assumed that she meant that anime is literally real when she said that 'anime is real', and not that the events the anime portrays are real."

And you say that doesn't work, because Undyne HAS to be another sane person on the planet, and not one of the very real insane ones. She just HAS to be! Her helping you in the fight when she wants to kill you, despite the fact that "you are the enemy of everyone's hopes and dreams" from her point of view is totally a rational thing to do! Helping the enemy won't possibly have any negative consquences, let alone let, oh, dare I say it.. make the human win? Yeah, totally not going to happen. That was completely sane, and there's no hole in her strategy. /s

"And Gaster? He was the underground's Nikola Tesla, not the luckiest crazy inventor in the history of game plots ever."

His brilliance truly was irreplacable. (Gaster Follower..?)

"That is not simple. As you yourself described it, for anime itself to be real, special effects would have to be set up."

Exactly. But it's not real. My argument isn't that it is. My argument is that she meant it was. That only requires one thing:Undyne's crazy enough to actually use this fallacy. And judging by her behavior in her fight, and how she "cooks" by smashing the food.. That's not too far-fetched.

"But if it was just showing what the humans do and how they act (but NOT who they 'are'), we do not need to assume that. As I said, Occam's razor rules out your possibility quite easily."

It rules out the possibility that anime is actually real. That is DIFFERENT than the possilility of someone ASSUMING that anime is real. In fact, I say anime doesn't even portray what the humans do and how they act. It's a fictional story.

"Is this seriously the first thing that came into your mind when you first heard that phrase? That she was being literal?"

It fits the theme of the date, and I always saw Alphys as passionate for anime.. Enough to say the events were real. Then, in Undyne's date, came the giant spear, no doubt recreated to match anime. Then, came "Historically, humans weilded swords up to 10x their own size. Right?" That brought Undyne over to that group as well. Then, I took Alphys out of that group when she admitted none of it was real.. Right after that, came what Undyne said. And that's what started it all.. Undyne having smashed the food, and not signing her name on the letter brought me over to saying she wasn't smart of a monster.

"Language yes. Yes because otherwise, 'dog' could be 'cat' and 'tomorrow' could be 'yesterday'."

The fact that Chara and Asriel could understand each other proves humans and monsters spoke the same language at the time. And humans speak English right now. So.. This is English.

"If someone says that a non-physical concept is real, they probably mean the information that the concept is containing, not the concept itself. Since logically, a non-physical concept being physical makes no sense."

For her, it's not that a cartoon is a real thing, but rather, that anime is simply recorded events captured on camera, that were recoded as they were happening.

"And don't say it does to Undyne. You said she's insane based on this assumption. Just because she's eager into plenty of things doesn't mean she is insane. Just that she enjoys it. She's a monster after all."

There's a fine line between being eager about something and thinking it's real. Alphys is on the sane (sane, not same) side of that line.

"Plenty of monsters act weird and do stuff in untraditional ways. But they're not insane. They're just being themselves, they're being monsters. They're not like humans."

It's not just untraditional, it's flat-out illogical! And it doesn't work, either! Undyne doesn't sign the letter, so Alphys thinks you wrote it! Undyne thinks cooking's a war against the food, so she treats it as such and ends up burning the house down. She also help you, allowing you to survive. Not really something that's sane to give to "the enemy of everyone's hopes and dreams!"

Also, Undyne's the only insane one on this list. The others are quite sane. Sure, they're quirky, but, as you said, they're just being monsters. As Asriel said, monsters are weird. But Undyne isn't just weird. No sane person would give the enemy to everyone's hopes and dreams a chance to live. And I'm pretty sure every sane person knows the way Undyne cooks is not the way to cook.