Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190820122909/@comment-26006155-20200107144430

Ambassador, you say that Chara didn't control Frisk at all until the end of Souless Pacifist.

Yet all through the No Mercy Run, "Frisk" does things without player consent. Like refusing to hide behind the lamp, wrecking all of Papyrus's puzzles. Chiming in with her own red dialog at key points in the story that reveal new information from her perspective. The evidence that Chara is taking over Frisk compounds all through the game, right up until the point where Chara slashes Sans with a knife regardless of whatever weapon Frisk has equiped. And from then on, we have no agency over our character, who kills Asgore, and Flowey, and then US entirely on their own initiative.

Ambassador, you say that none of this evdience counts, because Frisk did all of these things.

And yet, these things only happen on a No Mercy run. Frisk does decide to hide behind the lamp, and patiently let Papyrus work his schenanigans, without player input.

Chara learns from our actions. So if we, the player, decide to keep hitting the dummy, they learn that hitting things is ok, and attack the dummy with increasing ferocity on each subsequent hit. These are not things that Frisk did.. these are things that We The Player did, through our character. Frisk is not responsible for these actions.

The more evil the player acts, the more their actions resonate with Chara. And the more control Chara exerts over Frisk. Eventually taking him over completely at the end of the Sans Fight. Which, unlike all the other battles in the game, does not say "You Win" at the end. We just hear a defeat sound, then get a bucket of Execution Points. Because Chara just killed Frisk.

Remnant of sorts does seem to be a thing in Undertale.

Asriel's dust, infused with Chara's original soul, fell over many seeds in the garden, Flowey being the strongest one, but far from the only one. These seeds somehow knew where Frisk would fall in the future, and made a point of growing in not one, but two places where this would happen, both of which seemed rocky and inhospitable to life. This wasn't random, these seeds choose to be here, some piece of Chara's remnant acting to shield Chara from future harm that these flowers were aware of.

And traces of Determination from one of the Six Humans was absorbed by the seagrass that Alphys deemed Scientifically Protected. The same seagrass that Alphys used to make "ice cream" and feed to Undyne, even if Undyne doesn't think it's ice cream. Perhaps determination resides in the blood, and the seagrass drank this up and collected it for later use?

Sans can address The Anomaly without knowing Frisk's name. He flat out tells us that We're the anomaly during his fight, while also trying to jog Frisk's memory about how they might have been "friends" in another place and time. And it's only when Chara takes over completely that Sans stops trying to intervene and finally leaves, knowing there's nothing left of Frisk, his earlier self, anymore, and seeing no point in hanging around, letting Chara go and create a hell for themselves to live in while Sans goes to try and save another timeline.

Ambassador, you say that calling Chara a refleciton of ourselves is "false", And cite, without evidence, that this is a "factual error", because that's what you believe it is, and you feel you can decide which facts are real, and which ones we're allowed to use.

Did I not break this down in detail in the script? That's Narrator Chara's dispostion depends entirely on our own player actions? That if we're good, we end of saving Chara's soul in the True Pacifist Ending, and if we're evil she steals our own and actually cuts her own original soul to ribbons when she slashes Flowey out of existance? Or how, with your own example, we teach Chara that it's ok to hit the Dummy because that's what we direct her to do?

The Gaster Followers would not speculate on Alphys meeting the same fate as Gaster unless that option was availible to her. It's not a question of whether she knows how yet, I imagine Gaster didn't plan on himself being shatered, either. It's something that might happen when you play around with time and dimensional travel. Something that Alphys flat out tells us she's been researching for a long time. So yes.. she does know how it works. She installs a dimensional portal into our phone in two seconds.

(I've always found it strange that our phone has access to not one, but TWO dimensional boxes. One is clearly the one from this universe, the same extra-dimensional space we can access by using any of the boxes we find sitting around. But the second one... is it a box from another timeline? Evidence, perhaps, that two timelines/parralell dimenions exist in this game?)

I did not read your analogy about the two books, Ambassador. But it sounds very much like you're trying to mimic the effect of having two parralell timelines by doing this.

The second timeline definitley starts after the last chapter of the first timeline, and ends with characters traveling to the past, causing a new timeline to split off that runs paralell to the first, and has a different story.

If Gaster's lab entries happen at a different place in time.. why does his Darkest Experiment entry seemingly wake up Flowey during Alphy's timeline? Alphys' own actions didn't wake up Flowey, and she has no idea where he's gone. "The Flower's Gone" is Entry 18. And Entry 16 is "No NO NO NO!", seemingly building anticipation up to 17.

Why do we find both Entry 17's floating in the same nebulous void in the game code, one written by Alphys, and one written by Gaster? Both of which seem to be referring to events that are happening in real time in Frisk's playthrough?

The Halloween Hack is all about paralell timelines. And how Giygas was able to re-invade timelines that he'd previosly been erased from. Any of this sound familar? The Gaster Followers seem to be jumping back and forth from another dimension. One in which Gaster is very much in control. The Alpha Timeline where Gaster attempted the Darkest Experiment.

Sans loses hope in the No Mercy timeline. But it's fractured in the others. Sans feels disillusioned. Yet he still keeps trying to help Frisk, in the hopes that Frisk can break the cycle and free everyone.

Which is what happens in the True Pacifist Ending.

Saying that "The evidence of him working with Alphys has been debunked at this point. We really have no reason to even say he's there anymore." sounds pretty short-sighted.

We learn canonically that Sans and Alphys are friends in the True Pacifist route.

Alphy's cameras are directly helping Sans know when Frisk shows up. And Alphys is aware that Papyrus has called everyone else on the phone to stop the Asgore fight.. except "Her", meaning Toriel, who Sans called himself. It's pretty obvious that Sans and Toriel have been friends for a very long time, and that he's told her all about Papyrus via texting, even if she never knew "Sans"' actual name or voice.

Everything in that last scene before the Asriel fight says that Sans and Alphys have been working together, how else would she know of the actions of both Sans and Papyrus leading up to this moment?

And Sans has already been to the True Lab before, and even knows about the Dog Amalgamate, since he responds to Papyrus's phone call speculation about dogs being in the lab with a wink and  shrug, not ruling this seeming insane idea out at all. Which means Sans actually knows dogs are in the lab even before Firsk visits the True Lab.

Far from "debunked", as you put it, the evidence that Sans and Alphys have been activelly working together seems overwhelming.