Thread:Mabian/@comment-4383275-20160827050912/@comment-27701762-20160829154702

Oobooglunk wrote:

My "three bullet points" criterion is based on the structure of a form of humorous logical reasoning called the Duck Test: "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." The Duck Test is also the reason I uphold the belief that all these seemingly disconnected bullet points or, as you called them, nods are indeed part of a larger, more cohesive whole: there can only be so much coincidental evidence before it no longer seems all that coincidental. What I'm actually trying to get at is not the idea of "what does it take for a theory to be disproved." That questions tends to turn into "at what point would I personally be satisfied with the theory not being true."

Instead, the question is "how do we determine which points of evidence are valid, and which are not." One of the pitfalls of interpretation, especially when we encounter a theory that we find particularly enjoyable and wish to cling to, is that we twist and morph every possible piece of evidence to fit the theory. So it is useful to be able to step back and come up with a method to determine whether something really is evidence of a theory, or is completely tangential to the discussion. Hence, for example, the idea of being able to show whether something is an homage to Earthbound or a direct reference to the theory that Sans is Ness.

The Duck Test doesn't quite fit here, since it would turn into something like "if it looks like Ness, behaves like Ness, and sounds like Ness, then it is probably Ness." But the only direct points of contact are that Sans and Ness have a vaguely similar body type and dress sense, and that both are able to teleport. Everything else is focused on the world of Undertale as a whole, which does not directly relate to Sans. Instead it is using the premise "Undertale is connected to the Mother universe" to prove that Sans is indeed Ness.

There are two badges in the Mother series: the Franklin Badge and the Courage Badge. Only the former appeared in EarthBound, with the latter appearing in Mother 3, so only the Franklin Badge could be the one in Sans' possession. But we're still not engaging in the process of elimination. We haven't asked "what possible badge could it be," but "what possible badge from the Mother universe could it be." We've still restricted the analysis to the premise that the game is certainly connected to the Mother universe. It is begging the question.

I don't know to what degree this is relevant or not, but one thing I recalled from the original discussion (and which I confirmed on the Mother Wiki) is that there is at least the possibility of there being multiple Franklin Badges in the Mother universe. Mother 1 allows the character to find two different Franklin Badges. It is possible that they are not a truly unique item.

Determination has the following three traits:

-The ability to let its user SAVE at certain points -The ability to revive its user upon death -A physical form

If we consider EarthBound's Flying Men to be the physical form of courage, which their dialogue seems to affirm, that gives us as 66.67% similarity. I looked into the Flying Men, and they appear to be a manifestation or representation of Ness's courage specific to the magical world of Magicant. It would be the same idea as roaming around in a dream world and encountering a character who claimed to be a manifestation of the character's kindness: it would not indicate that kindness has a physical form it. That does not really correspond to a physical property (much less a sort of physical goo).

Napstablook is more similar to EarthBound's Tiny Lil' Ghost, which is indeed incorporeal and immune to physical harm. But then we've departed from our point of contact: there is a specific enemy called a Dust Ghost which could be a type of Monster, but it exhibits no properties that are similar to Monsters besides being made of dust. And when a specific corollary is discovered, the ghost Monsters in Undertale, they are completely different. So by the Duck Test above, the only similarity is that it shares a similar name to the duck. There is no looking, walking, or quacking.

Who else shares Sans' clothing, stance, grin, and badge? Certainly not Poo or Jeff. Comparing Sans to Ness seems to be the most logical idea. This is once again begging the question. We cannot use the premise "Sans is a character from the Mother universe" to help prove that Sans is Ness.

This seems to indicate otherwise. I had specifically referred to the bones that appear in the menus.

Or it could simply be blood that had turned to dust and flowed like a red, sand-like substance, not unlike this But then the premise here is that the dust retains its original coloration. Every other organic component of Ness's body - his skin, his hair, his organs - should also retain their color by the same principle, meaning that Sans would not revive as a plain white skeleton.

Au contraire, Sans moves throughout his fight. Papyrus does not. Indeed. He bobs and moves his arm. But that still doesn't respond to the important factor of his breathing, and why he physically moves when he breathes and Papyrus does not, which I provided an explanation for.

In some of their appearances in fiction, revenants consumed the souls of others, and Sans is shown to be a bit of a glutton. It's also worth mentioning that he's the only main character who doesn't have a SOUL Mode of his own, switching between Chara/Frisk's red and Papyrus' blue. I'm not sure what that coloration indicates, but evidence seems to point to the idea of Sans gaining his monster soul through consumption. What evidence points to that? All we get from the fictional accounts is that revenants (sometimes) consume souls, presumably in the same way that we "consume" food.

And the statement that Sans is the only main character without his own soul mode is flatly untrue. Flowey, Asriel, Asgore, and Toriel all use only the red soul mode. Meanwhile, the purple soul mode is restricted to a miniboss.