Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-31536324-20180923180533

"An "ability of strength" called "power" is meaningless, considering nothing else in the game makes such a statement. In accordance with Occam's razor, strength is the power itself. It is already gramatically correct that way after all."

Power is power, there's nothing more to it. The strength of the SOUL is DT, and the power of that strength is to persist outside the human body even after death (as shown by the other 6 SOULS and the Battle System).

"Besides, look at the second plaque: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6gS2LPXdIc5OWVTaGU5Qnc2N0k/view

"Its power allows it" - if what you are saying is true, then the plaques would be saying the following:

"The power of the strength of the soul allows the strength to persist after death."

Gramatically, it is implied the two pronouns at the beginning of the second plaque refer to the same object, and the above is clearly a nonsense.

If they aren't referring the same object however, you must prove it first. But your theory isn't proof, and neither is mine, we are stuck arguing over the meaning of this plaque. And in this case, Occam's razor takes precedence."

First, before I reply to this, I just got Undertale for the Switch, really fun and just got past Muffet (I'd have much preferred the side to side movement of the strings being grid like as well, but that's just me).

Second, I just went back to Waterfall and checked the plaques, and guess what? What we've been saying are on two different plaques, they're on the same plaque, I'm not kidding. The plaque in it's entirety says: "But humans have one weakness. Ironically, it is the strength of their SOUL. It's power allows it to persist outside the human body, even after death." In other words: the plaques were talking about Determination and it's abilities, not SOUL Power. Meaning my explanation on this is the right one: "It's" is referring to the "strength of their SOUL," and "power" is referring to it's ability to persist outside of the human body and after death.

"Obviously. If I say that A ≡ B and then start monologuing about B, I'm not talking about C, I'm talking about B. But B can also be A, even though I never mentioned it. This is because A and B are equivalent. Their definitions do not differ. DT is soul power, which means that each time we're talking about DT, including here, we're also talking about soul power.

And I figured that A ≡ B, because their known properties are identical, and because their labels are identical, assuming the simpler definition, which is "the power of the soul", not the composite one, which would be "the power of the strength of the soul".

You may think that choosing one over the other without any proof is not allowed, but that's Occam's razor for you. We must assume the simpler option if there's nothing else we can add into the equation."

My reply prior to these three paragraphs.

"That would make the green kid unable to move. Nonsense."

Actually, it makes sense. Each trait would have their own strengths and weaknesses in battle (or rather, the battle system).

Red has free movement, but it's unique power is locked by a threshold that you need to reach first.

Orange can hurt anything that's stationary, but not anything that moves.

Yellow can fire unlimited rounds, but it's movement is slower. (Currently at Mettaton, and Yellow definitely seems slower to me.)

Green has a nigh unbreakable defense, but it can't move period.

Cyan can hurt anything that moves, but not anything stationary.

Blue can leap high and long, but is limited in how high and long.

Purple can analyze and dodge, but is limited in movement.

"Omega Flowey had the power, and Asriel is stronger than Omega Flowey. Or are you saying the power peaks at 6, even though the status of "god" is described to be achieved at 7 souls, not 6?"

No, I don't. But Frisk had more DT than Asriel by that time, but not Omega Flowey when he came into power, that's all there is to it.

"And what is your proof that this would have happened? His words? Didn't Mettaton also say he wanted to kill us and take our soul? How is that any different?"

You LOAD as you're leaving the mortal coil, just before you die, and feeling the primal desire to not want to die, as Flowey said. If you can't even BE at that point, and are killed instantly, then you won't LOAD. Simple logic an deductive reasoning.

Mettaton wanted to kill us and get our SOUL, we would have reached the exact threshold to LOAD just like any other time before the GoHD fight. You aren't being killed instantly with Mettaton, or any other monster, Asriel simply can't because Frisk gained REFUSE and was rendered unkillable.

"No, it means it's a plot hole. Toby planned for everything, for hackers, for quitters, everything and everyone. And he laid out the rules, going back (save for a true reset) makes Flowey remember. In accordance with this rule, this is a plot hole. Just because it exists doesn't immediately make it canon, even though we're saying he planned (nearly) everything."

A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Asriel NOT commenting on something that would honestly be redundant is NOT a plot hole. He simply just doesn't want to comment on it because there would be no point to doing so.

"Just the fact that he had to update the game several times in the past in order to fix some bugs shows, that the original release was NOT perfect. Meaning that if something contradicts the rest of the game, and if it's plausible it could just be an oversight (in other words, an omissive plot hole, not a commissive one), I will take the chance and say that this was NOT the intended behavior, for Occam razor's sake."

I see no contradiction with anything THA or I have said, and Occam Razor is the principle that the simplest solution is the best, which your hypothesis and explanation is not.

You make up a rule about composite SOULS and another rule about S/L/R splitting just to explain why Omega Flowey and Asriel are different. When the simple solution is that Omega Flowey had more DT than Frisk at the time, and that Frisk had more DT than Asriel.

You split DT in two and contradict yourself just to continue saying that DT and SP are the same thing. When the simpler solution is to just separate the two as their own things, which the game does itself.

Seriously, I implement Occam's Razor more than you do.

"Just like the dirty hacker ending? Omission due to redundancy is not a valid argument here."

The Dirty Hacker ending is accessible only through hacking, not normal gameplay. What's found VIA hacking is canon, but hacking itself is not.

"The burden of proof is on you, my explanation concerning the plaques and quitting during Asriel's battle is simpler."

No, the burden is on YOU, you're the one who made the claim so you're the one who has to back it up. That's all there is to it. No, it's not, for either case.

"So in other words, a redundant action, compared to my interpretation, which guesses a necessary one. Excellent, way to bloat your theory."

How is it redundant? And yes, it is an excellent way to bloat your theory, thank you for admitting that.

"Yes, but prove that this is the case first."

You load when you're just about to - or in the process of - leaving the mortal coil. If you're forced out of the mortal coil instantly without going through that, or even getting to that point, then you can't LOAD and the ability goes to the next in line. Again, simple logic and deductive reasoning.

"So the fluctuation is totally arbitrary. Excellent, Frisk is literally a Mary Sue. And that's even ignoring the fucking fact that soul power is DT."

It's not a fact. DT not fitting for the mold for the metric that SP dictates, because it breaks the rule of a metric, IS a fact because of what we see in the game.

Frisk is only a Mary Sue if they can do it whenever and wherever they want, which they can't, as shown by the rest of the game. That level of DT needs a situation that calls for it, and a god-like entity threatening to destroy everything you know and love, with you being the only one to stop them, is definitely a situation that calls for that kind of level of DT.