Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-33883848-20190206122715

"Entry 5: I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the "human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination.""

Stop to use this quote

"Persist after death (what wesee the Six Human SOULS do), will to keep living (directly ties to SAVE and REFUSE), and resolve to change fate (resolution)."

Resolve literally means determination or firmess of purpose in real life: https://www.google.com/search?q=resolve+english+def&oq=resolve+english+def&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.4806j1j7&client=ms-android-om-lge&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

So, in any way she DOESNT mean that dt is firmess of purpose in general. She said that dt is "the firmess to CHANGE FATE". Now whats "fate"? Fate is something that's natural, thats written, that must happen. In the context of Undertale that can only mean two things either he events after each recept. They all repeat exactly the same unless Frisk is acting differently. So yes, that can be "the resolve to change fate "shes talking or death, something thats reserved to every living being is death, something that will happen regardlees the circumstances. Humans can persist after it thanks to dt so it can be the "resolve to change fate"shes talking about aswell

Whhats the more correct choice?? Remember, not all humans who die have the recept power, so the "resolve to change fate"is likely NOT the will to change events that will repeat but all humans MUST die, so thats the "fate"she was refering too. Plus she was likely talking about the feeling humans have when they dies as the soul's persistence only happens when humans dies, dt is something they feel when they dies:the will to overcome death, thats what allow their souls to exist.

Most importantly, dt is a a physical SUBSTANCE while personality's traits ARENT,so again dt is unlikely the red trait because traits aren't subtances that you can extract like dt.

"Not really, no. You're assuming that they automatically have all the power of Pacifist Frisk from the get go, and can do everything they can then willy nilly. Which is clearly not the case given that they didn't have those capabilities in the Omega Flowey fight, but did in the Asriel fight. What you're insituating is that Frisk is THAT determined ALL THE TIME, every second of the day, when it's rather clear that the situation itself was what made them so determined."

So,JUST BECAUSE FRISK SHOWS SO MUCH DT A SINGLE TIME DOESNT MEAN THEIR TRAIT IS RED. All fallen humans could do it aswell if their friends are in danger, especially that dt is so far only described as a "power"not trait, nothing implies that this power turn into a trait if is someone has more of it than any other trait. After, all Frisk's determination ALWAYS fluctuate,so can be weaker too

"I know I was just disproving your statement about it being ABOUT Frisk wanting to live."

The world's destruction is definitely not the fate,its isnt something determined unless Frisk dies and Asriel make a true recept, so Frisk has no resolve "to change fate"but to make things better, to save their friends. They were determined to LIVE ON regadless the mortal danger to save their friends

"Doing something is not the same as BEING something. I can give flowers to people every day, but unless I'm doing it with the intent to just be nice or for niceness sake, then I'm not doing it to be kind, I'm just doing it because I want to give them flowers and see their reactions."

Now you are confusing yourself in your head just to convince yourself that the firmess of purpose and perseverance dont complete each other.

Anyways, Perseverance is not doing the same thing again and again, otherwise we could say that the earth that turn around the earth is perverant as it always make the same movement

Here what perseverance means:https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-om-lge&ei=nORZXMebBIyxU_ywpagO&q=perseverance+english+def&oq=perseverance+english+def&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.12..0i22i30l4.2210.2672..4432...0.0..0.626.1597.3-1j0j2......0....1.........0i71j35i39j0i22i10i30j33i22i29i30j33i160.1nQIELC2Kog That's "persistence in doing something despite difficulty or delay in achieving success"

Determination, the firmess of purpose, the will to achieve your goal is what push you into this kind of behavior, result perverance. If youre using the proof that Frisk has determination trait as they are persistent to achieve goals regardless difficulty, then here youre rather refering to "perseverance ". Determination and perseverance COMPLET EACH OTHER

"Determination is replaying a hard level in a gane to achieve the best rank, score, and unlockables."

Now youre giving your own definition of determination

"And yes you can, I refer you back to my scientist and analyst analogy. A scientist does experiments to see the results, write them down, and see what else can be attained from the process and both any new results that might crop up. An analyst looks at something, does it, takes notes on their faults, and does it again with the new knowledge in mind; making note of any new mistakes and repeating. You don't work toward a result, you repeat to get new results and learn."

They cant have this kind of behavior unless theres nothing that push them too as the firmess to achieve their goal

"Determination works toward a result, pushes you to a goal, urges you to achieve and attain your desired outcome. Yes you repeat, but you're not doing so to learn, you're doung so to keep trying to do and get what you want."

I dont undertand the point here, why learning cant be the goal you want to acheive? And you know what, all perseverant people are perseverant to reach their goal. Unless are you saying that Frisk only has the "will to achieve their goal"but is not persverant? But here some issues

1.How having a strong will to achieve your goal can reflect your personality?Does only having this feeling make it a trait? 2.Goals can vary and so our feeling to achieve it so Frisk cant have the firmess to achieve their goal constantly:only when this is a goal they strongly feel about,  which contradict the idea that its Frisk's trait. 3.ALL humans can have the firmess to achieve their goal depending the goal they want to achieve, thats not perseverance as perseverance is a specific characteristic  result from determination but not always. So what make Frisk so special to have it as a trait? 4.in the game, all the traits have specific way to achieve their goal as indicated by the ball game. But if Frisk's trait is dt, whats behavior thats associated with this trait? perseverance? But perseverance already exist as a trait. 5.To get the red soul's flag, Frisk use All Of traits to reach their goal, how could it implies that Frisk's soul is dt? How is it associated with dt at all?The behavior associated with the red soul is using all the 6 traits to reach the goal,that has nothing to do with "the firmess of purpose" 6.And Dt in Undertale is "the resolve to change fate", not "firmess of purpose", so stop to use instances where Frisk seems to have the firmess of purpose to proove that dt is their trait as this is NOT what dt is in the game

"Frisk needed a Monster SOUL to get through the barrier, something that DOESN'T HAPPEN in the first run. So, no, they didn't cross the Barrier. At least then. In the other Neutral Routes, if they yes, they had to."

Flowey and Frisk definitely cross the barrier, here the definitive proofhttps://www.google.com/amp/adamency.tumblr.com/post/143766235842/frisks-escape-from-the-underground/amp

The alphys also never states that its NECESSARY to absorb specifically A MONSTER SOUL but thats the min required. So, Frisk could have crossed the barrier because their soul is fused with Chara's essence making it stronger enough to cross the barrier and Flowey had the 6 souls when he crossed the barrier.

"Chara has no SOUL or DT of their own, both are GONE; everything they have now is a result of Frisk DT and SOUL. They directly say so IN THE GENOCIDE ENDING. They say that what ressurected them, brought them back, and is allowing them to destroy the world is Frisk DT AND SOUL. "

Again, NOTHING implies that you need any soul to have dt, dt is just A psychological feeling, so that anyone can have. Just because Frisk's dt resurrected them doesnt proove anything

"There is literally nothing that implies that they have their own of either, and no the Asgore quotes don't count, they themselves don't give Frisk DT the reason BEHIND THEM does. Hearing someone encourage another to keep at it, continue even in a tough time, would definitely inspire and push someone to do the same since they feel they'd be able to do the same. If someone like that is encouraging it, then there must be some truth to it all."

Oh yeah of course frisk would listen Asgore while hes speaking to someone else. How could his voice make him determined at all? Combine this with how Chara describes themself, "the demon that comes when people call tit name"then it appears like Chara is the one who return to the save point when Asgore pronounce their name

"Flowey has no DT on his own, he needed to be injected as stated here: "ENTRY NUMBER 8: I've chosen a candidate. I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it... In the center of his garden, there's something special. The first golden flower, that grew before all the others. The flower from the outside world. It appeared just before the queen left. I wonder... What happens when something without a SOUL gains the will to live?"

That DT is all he has, unless he absorbs other SOULS and gains more, that's it."

Iam not such a dumbass, i KNOW IT. Flowey was injected of dt to come back but absolutely nothing implies that he cant have his own "will to keep living"once alive. Flowey himself says that he had his own determination as he was afraid to die, not because something he doenst understand in him pushed him to come back to his save point

"No, it's not. If it were then one of the two wouldn't be mentioned, not both, both are separate things."

IT WAS TO ACCURATELY DESCRIBE WHAT DT IS, NOT TO DESRIBE TWO DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS, PLUS SHE NEVER SAYS "AND"AS IF SHE WAS DESCRIBING THE SAME FUNCTION

"And change fate. Living longer is not changung fate, you're going to die in the end. Changing fate is winning in a battle your opponent is destined to win. Changing fate is preventing a disaster to create a better outcome. Changing fate is going against what's laid out for you."

Fate is something that must happen, death is a fate as all living creatures will die, with dt you're struggling to live longer so change fate

"DT is the will to live, resolve to change fate, and ability to persist AFTER death (the SHS are clealr shown doing just that)."

Every single definition you gave complete each other

"Stop simplifying it to one thing, and no I'm not "complicating" it, I'm using exactly what the game says it is which is the above. I'm not giving it multiple functions, TOBY HIMSELF AND THE GANE ITSELF GAVE IT MULTIPLE FUNCTIONS."

You ARE complicating it as the game NEVER describes dt as a simple "firmess of purpose", but as a resolve to change FATE, which is completely different

"No, that's the DT HE WAS INJECTED WITH, THE SAME DT THAT BROUGHT HIM BACK IN THE FIRST PLACE!"

Dt is the "will to keep living", "the resolve to change fate"EVERYONE CAN FEEL THOSE THINGS

"They literally say that the DT and SOUL they have is not theirs. That alone is proof."

They only said that they come back thanks to frisks dt not that they don't have any.

"No, he doesn't, he only has what he was injected with. He can di what he does BECAUSE OF THAT SAME DT!"

Flowey says that he we was determined to live on not because something inside of him pushed but because of his personal fear of death.

"Because Chara has no SOUL, and they're only here because of Frisk DT. The SHS still exist, Flowey exist, Chara didn't even have a SOUL and were rendered nonexistent until Frisk fell onto their grave and their SOUL resonated with Chara's decayed remains."

Every single conscious being can have "the will to keep living"

"Except only at the end of Genocide, which is explicitly stated to be because of Frisk SOUL and DT, with everything after being done due to Chara using both. Never once is anything implying that Chara theirself is doing this with their own power. They needed Frisk to get 20 LV to become physical, they needed Frisk SOUL to get control of the timeline, and they needed the Player/Anomaly to willingly agree to restore the world to corrupt the endings."

They don't need the players agreement at all to make a true recept, just to give Frisk's soul

"1 - SAVE is under Frisk control, not Chara's."

Where is it implied? Heck the save points are even under CHARAS NAME not Frisk's

"3 - Again, Chara has no DT or SOUL of their own, they can't do shit until Frisk starts nearing 20 LV. Frisk is the one doing everything, not Chara."

1.where proofs? 2.chara can do every shit they want without any lv as controlling frisk.

"Correlation =/= Causation."

ALL THEORIES COMBINE CORRELATION AND CAUSATION. No seriously I must deny the canon and accept your headcanons just because you want it?

"Name five."

1 when frisk sleep in the bed in toriels house during the epilogue 2. Frisk fell in waterfalls's garbage 3.The presence of Chara's name in stats, battles interface 4. The jokes about Asriel and Chara frisk make 5.Flowey who call Chara's name in the true end

"That literally means nothing. Frisk hears the message, senses the meaning and intention, and feels empowered by the that intention even if it's not directed at them. Again, no different then literally everything else that gives them DT."

Yeah a message that tell ANOTHER PERSON to stay determined. You are really in denial here

"Except Flowey himself says to let everyone be happy and let Frisk live their life after Pacifist is done. Literally spelling out that the characters and world are their own, have their own lives, and exist independently from the Player/Anomaly."

How its related with anything at all?? The fact is :frisk NEVER struggle to achieve their goal UNLESS we force them to achieve it. "The rest does matter, DT is not yellow."

Oh really, what rest? The only "manifestation of dt"in the game is YELLOW, the only color dt is written in is YELLOW, Flowey's petals become the exact same yellow as the save points when he was injected of dt.

.

"What I think of a majority of your responses."

Maybe because you lack of the ability to analyze?

"Just because Chara hated humanity doesn't mean that they climbed the mountain to destroy it. They climed it to get away from it."

Flowey says they wanted "to erase themself from existence "

"Determination in game is described as the will to keep living, resolve to change fate, and ability to persist after death. I do nothing to DT other than give and use it in the exact ways, with the exact meanings, it's given.

You're the one simplifying it."

You add A TON of meanings not in the game itself as firmess of purpose or adding your own definition of dt.

"They can't have DT alone, BECAUSE THEY'RE CONNECTED TO THE ONE WITH THE DT THAT BROUGHT THEM BACK, THEY SHARE FRISK DT!"

They are two different people,and so each of them have their own will to keep living, change fate. Chara is also only determined to come back because of Asgores message not because of frisks dt

"No, it's not. Stop injecting fanon into canon."

Hahaha so i'am the one doing it??? You force the popular fanon saying that red soul is dt without even proofs and I'm the one who inject fanon in canon???

Iam NOT the one who wrote "hole"during the ball game in red (remember during the ball game, the colors reflect what each soul represent) and with the first letter in capital aswell as for all other traits. Iam NOT the one who said that the red soul is the only one that can mix all of the 6 traits and iam NOT the one who wrote "ball game "in red. That ALL the evidences you need to be convinced that red soul is the lack of any specific trait.Iam NOT the one who said that frisk doesn't show any specific personality trait in the game. That's IN CANON WITHOUT ANY META OR ANYTHING

"Ball Game, and implications given throughout the game, which all point to Determination."

And according to you, how ball game implies that dt=red soul?