Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31252171-20171008174544/@comment-32182236-20180516224538

[We don't need to ACT. Frisk can feel Asriels power. It is normal for characters to feel the power of such beings.]

We DO need to ACT. We're not told that Asriel has power over them until Frisk attempts to "Struggle", when they learn that "Can't move your body". If Frisk felt Asriel's power and knew they were powerless, the flavor text would have stated that-Instead it only states that "ASRIEL blocked the way!"

[Asriel disappears together with the menu in the light. There is no further transformation visible. Asriel then is suddenly there, together with the menu.]

As he disappears, we see his sprite being extended horizontally, to the point where parts of his cape are touching the edges of the screen before he's fully invisible. The rest of the transformation is assumed to have happened while the screen turned white, and then black. As he is pretty much a hyperdeath god by now, the transformation could have occurred at a higher plane of existence. Or it could be as you suggested-He merely became invisible with the menu as the light consumed it all:Either way, Asriel is invisible, even by HUD standards:So his song doesn't play.

[When Asriel disappears because he transforms, why does the menu disappear too? Because Frisk closes the eyes.]

Closing eyes would mean a black background, not a white one. It was the light that blinded their field of vision.

[And where should Asriel have gone? Drink tea? Asriel is still there. You just can not see him because Frisk has closed the eyes.]

Ascended to a higher realm so that his transformation not be disturbed? Either way, considering that songs are from our perspective, if we can't see him, we can't hear his theme.

[Would you give up when it comes to everything or nothing? Frisk (as well as almost every TV hero) does not.]

So are they determined that they'll save the world or not? If they are determined, then they did not lose their hopes and dreams that took them this far, and therefore, the theory falls short. If they aren't determined anymore, they wouldn't have refused-Fully in despair, they know (or think they know) that they cannot save the world. Hence, they do not refuse-But the game shows they DO refuse!



[First: "Burn In Despair" is Asriels theme.]

Then why do you associate it with Frisk losing their willpower? Why doesn't this song play earlier? We run into the same problems that my take gives you. (The solution is still the same though-You could say it's because we can't see Asriel-But that applies as a solution to the problem you mentioned in mine as well.)

[Secondly: The simplest answer is, there is not enough time. "But The Earth Refused to Die" starts after Undyne gets her fight spirit back. She has a relatively long monologue afterwards.]

That's about 45 seconds.

[Frisk has about 5 seconds after the low point, before the fight starts again.]

No, it's four turns. With Asriel attacking as well. Frisk stays determined and refuses just before "Burn in Despair" plays-This "Burn in Despair" segment lasts for about 50 seconds. So if they're still determined to save the world, "But Frisk Refused to Die" (hypothetical name) should have played instead of Burn in Despair. And if they're NOT, then... how did they refuse? (Secondly, why isn't it just more silence, like before Undyne got her fighting spirit back?)

[Yes, titles are not always clearly assignable. You could "Fallen Down" also interpret as “Toriel finds someone who has fallen down.”]

Exactly. So we shouldn't use the title "SAVE the WORLD" as evidence this is Frisk's theme.



[When "SAVE the World" has something of Chara in it and we know that Frisk is possessed by Chara, then this would make "SAVE the World" Frisks (+Chara) theme even more so.]

Frisk would have their own theme. All we get is an amalgamation of Flowey's theme (Your Best Friend), Chara's theme (Once Upon a Time), and part of the Snowdin theme. (More than likely actually a friendship theme, due to its use elsewhere)

Considering that the final fight is all about Asriel thinking you're Chara, and treating this as a game between friends, it makes sense for these three themes to be put together to form "Hopes and Dreams".

Also, Frisk is NOT possessed by Chara unless a Genocide Route has been performed. Don't know where you got the idea otherwise. Did you take me saying that Chara is the narrator and assume I meant they must be possessing you at all times? Those are two different things! (Though I will acknowledge it's possible that Chara helped. Actually, it's a fact they helped, willingly or not-They brought forth THEIR memory of meeting Asriel. Chara is bound to us, we have each other's essence-The two of us partners can transmit memories to each other.) Still though, no Frisk motif to be found-Only other character's themes. Why? (Characters can't share themes)

[It is very likely that Chara helps Frisk just as in the genocide run. She wants to help Asriel by helping Frisk.]

Evidence? (Describing what Frisk sees redundantly does not count.)



[Sans is a 4th wall breaker.]

So is just about everybody. You could even say there isn't a fourth wall. Oh, you want evidence? Here you go!


 * The tutorial froggits flat-out mention the MERCY option, and one of them reveals that the monsters themselves are the ones who make their names yellow, if you say to take away the yellow names, then ask for them back-Giving you pink names.
 * When Toriel asks you to cross the room alone, Frisk should have been able to see her-From their angle, Toriel wouldn't be hidden at all-Just left to the pillar. It's clear Toriel knows we use the HUD as vision.
 * Papyrus does not spot us at all when we're behind the lamp, despite the fact that he should have from his angle. He sees through the HUD.
 * Glyde "refuses to reveal more information about its statistics"
 * Gerson, when threatened, boasts how he knows you can't attack him from the shop window.
 * Mettaton changes the title to "Undertale The Musical"
 * Asgore smashes the MERCY button
 * Flowey, oh boy..
 * Has used the name select before:"I already CHOSE that name!"
 * Can crash the game
 * Renames the game to "Floweytale"
 * Somehow makes his LV 9999
 * And so much more

"If you talk to a person again and again, then the text does not change. For the person, it's always like talking to him/her for the first time."

It changes at least once, every time. When it does loop, it's where they would have nothing else to say anyway, like "Don't you have anything better to do?" (Flowey and Asriel) or "Bother me if you need everything else (Toriel), or "Already? What will it take for you to learn your lesson?" (ALSO Toriel).

[“Battle Against a True Hero” has more than the “hero theme” part. The “hero leitmotiv” is only part 1 of the complete theme.]

Correct:This is why I considered Battle Against a True Hero also Undyne's theme (It contains some of Spear of Justice within it)-But, SPECIFICALLY the "Hero leitmotif" is what I meant when I said Megalovania was lacking in it, and when I said that Power of NEO cannot be Mettaton's theme-It's the "hero" theme.

"When the fight wasn't over after 30 seconds, Power of "NEO" would have more parts and would be a complete character theme."

Us idling proves this wrong.

[That contradicts itself, because Sans plays the hero in the end.]

By not being determined at all? Also, the scene of his special attack is silence. (Which makes sense, as it's nothing.) Besides, the Royal Guards attempt to be heroes too, but alas, this fails. Mettaton NEO proves that one does not have to succeed at all in heroism for this theme to play-It's merely determination to stop YOU.

[Megalovania also does not include anything of Sans theme. It's a theme of its own.]

Characters can have more than one theme, as "Fallen Down"+"Heartache" proves. (Also, take Burn In Despair vs His Theme) Megalovania is Sans' second theme.

[Levels don't exist outside of games because it’s open world, but this doesn't mean that there are no bosses.

Bosses don't need levels and levels don't need bosses. It's just handy to create levels in games with a boss at the end.]

boss:"a particularly tough enemy, usually appearing at the end of a section or level."

[And why should it be "tough"? It does matter what the person does in the medium and not what you do.]

Because that's what the definition says. "a particularly tough enemy, usually appearing at the end of a section or level."

[I guess we agree that we are divided on this issue. For you it is an attack, but not for me.]

We are-I thought you'd have an explanation for how Sans was able to attack more than once before our turn came, which is what I used to show how my take has evidence. Guess not.