Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-31536324-20180831210106

MM you should format your responses better.

I had forgotten that I coppied the whole post, sue me.

"I meant all of one's mind. If you mean the body too, then I must disagree however."

Same here.

"That's true only if DT is a trait. Which we know it probably isn't, considering the only pro argument is Frisk's virtue, and the con arguments are the following: (1) red is apparently the sum of the other traits and also being yourself according to the ball game,"

I showed how it can still be a trait in the case of the former, I believe the exact quote was, "Try as you might, you continue to be yourself." That always sounded like a roundabout way of saying that you continue to be resolute or determined; seeing as how being yourself is a resolve in and of itself.

"(2) all humans could reset, and therefore probably also save and load,"

Flowey spells it out for us that S/L/R goes to the most determined being in the Underground, and since a single human soul dwarfs monster kind in terms of DT, it'srather obvious that they'd get it even if their trait isn't DT.

"(3) humans in general have lots of DT, which could be enough to explain Asriel's battle, aka the culmination of our human determination."

Except that Asriel had the six human souls, and almost every monster soul in the Underground, dwarfing Frisk, and yet Frisk still prevented asriel from doing/getting what he wanted. Frisk DT is Frisk DT, not all of humanities, this doesn't really do much to provide a "con argument" seeing as how it bolsters the "Red trait is DT" thing.

"Think of my interpretation this way: there are hundreds of psychological traits. The most dominant one, if it is one of the 7, becomes the soul color. If it's a different one, the closest one is chosen. Except, it's not really all about the dominant one. More like, each one is "weighted", and then their sum is extrapolated onto the 7-trait choice, from which one is chosen. This way, all of their personality is considered when assigning a trait at birth."

Of course, this works if there's only seven period. Just seven, or more than seven, it doesn't matter to me, the way I see it (most dominant trait determines color) still applies either way.

"That if they could do the same as Frisk, the only incredible thing that Frisk did SOLELY thanks to their special trait was win against a boss monster that was basically giving them the victory (wow), cried for help and the other souls miraculously answered them (wow!), and managed to self-heal or something during the final battle."

Your saying about it at the end does mitigate this a bit.

"Okay, this last one was pretty good."

It is.

"Still, if what is said about humans is true, if they truly have this much DT, they too should have been capable of doing the same thing, were they cast in the same situation."

Key words here are "should" and "have", and yet the other humans clearly didn't. Just because they should, doesn't mean they can. DT as a power, and DT as a trait, are reasonably different; what we see with Frisk is a result of DT as a trait, and what we know basically about DT is DT as a power (persist after death, S/L/R). I always assumed thr special things about DT (it's soul mode, I guess you can say) was LV, EXP, and the infinite use of S/L/R.

"And I am assuming that soul power is DT here, which seems to be the case. (It is merely a correlation, but an undisputed one, so I have accepted it.) Frisk soul never overpowered Asriel, it simply refused death and then convinced him to stop fighting on his own, thanks to a memory from Chara (or perhaps he remembered on his own as well)."

As said before, you still had more DT than Asriel, hence why he kept trying to kill you permanently. He had the powers of a god, but he still didn't have more DT than Frisk.

"If it was as powerful as 2 or more human souls, all of monsterkind's souls themselves would never have had to be used."

If, keyword is if. And by that time, Frisk was more powerful.

"I think their soul was about just as powerful as the other human souls, I think this is what Toby intended."

The DT = Soul Power thing kind of falls apart when you take into account that Frisk still had more DT then the human souls in the GoHD fight, meaning they had grown stronger by that time.

"And so, that would make them about as powerful as Frisk, also capable of refusing death in times of extreme determination and hope. In Frisk's case, the hope of saving someone long lost, most likely."

Except they clearly weren't. They had the same power, the same goal (leaving), and the same opposition as Frisk. And yet they died and failed; maybe some got farther than the others, but to say that they'd achieve what Frisk did, if put in the same situation, is rather farfetched when the evidence points to the contrary.

I'm going primarily by the Neutral Run here, the run we know ALL the humans went through. And considering that the six humans DIED and never came back (regardless is they reached Asgore or not), then the idea that they'd be able to do what Frisk did in the GoHD fight is, again, farfetched.

This is, however, if Soul Power = DT. Though whether or not SP = DT, the others would STILL be weaker than Frisk because they have less DT.

"What does that leave Frisk with? The soul that is "determined" ... aka cannot do literally anything else any other soul is already capable of doing."

And refuse death, and withstand the power of a god-like being. Also, as you said later, it's a jack of all trades.

"And then says something completely else, debunking the debunk. Plus, it didn't say it was a sum, only that with those, we've managed to achieve this one. As in, we first PROBABLY went through all the other flags before we got the red one. I certainly did."

Using these things, we achieved our goal of winning Ball Game. We were determined, as such we continued to be ourselves: resolute.

"The reason I'm calling it the sum is merely for simplicity. What I actually believe in, is that red truly is the other explanation, that is, "being yourself". And I have pondered on the meaning of that phrase for a long time, before concluding it has no meaning, that Frisk has no assigned trait. Which WOULD make it possible for them to have all the others, paradoxically."

Except that there's nothing in the game about such a thing.

"Kinda like a neutron is both a proton+electron, and also a proton without a positron (a + and - combined, or a + removed from a +). Similarly, red is both all the other 6, while none at the same time. A scrap category for souls that don't fit the other 6 categories, in essence."

Or a trait with its own category, like the others, that's achievable through the other six.

"Keep calling it determination if you wish. It truly could be anything. Just don't go around claiming that the other children couldn't pull off a 'REFUSE', if they were cast into the same situation."

I wouldn't if the evidence didn't point in that direction. That, and the other traits wouldn't allow it anyway.

Bravery: you can face down as many attacks as you like, you're not getting back up once killed, or achieving your goal.

Justice: you can believe what you're doing is right all you want, you're not refusing the reaper or sparing Asriel with just that.

Kindness: Do I need to explain this one?

Patience: you can bide your time, that's not going to get you anywhere or further from death.

Integrity: you can be honest and true to yourself as much as possible, but that's not going to get Asriel to stop.

Perseverance: Keep trying, keep attempting, keep going, and keep analyzing. That alone isn't going to get anything done when you exhaust yourself and Asriel gets you.

Frisk managed to do what they did because they were DETERMINED to spare Asriel and achieve that. They weren't JUST brave, JUST just, JUST kind, JUST patient, JUST honest, or JUST perseverant. They were all of these things, they were determined.

"Because the evidence, that is, that their souls were just as strong when it comes to soul power, is showing otherwise."

First off: what is this evidence? What's your proof?

Second off: Assuming they are, they're equal in Soul Power, but not DT. The barrier is powered by Soul Power, S/L/R and persisting after/refusing death are done, achieved, and powered through DT.

"Sure, it's a versatile trait. A jack-of-all-trades if you'd prefer."

Right, and Bravery is close combat, Justice is long range, Kindness is defense, Patience is timing, Integrity is honesty/fairness, and Perseverance is analysis. The red soul is basically the all-rounder of the souls, no real strength or weakness, but not invincible.