Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-31536324-20190130192117

"Yeah, that still separates the two as different applications of DT. Also, the God of Hyperdeath fight is a FANTASTIC example of "resolve to change fate."

Listen, Alphys use those two definitions for the EXACT SAME SUBSTANCE. Why would it have so different functions? In one hand the will to live on, on the other the firmess of purpose??"

The will to keep living and resolve to change fate are both FIRMNESS OF PURPOSE. Not only that but Alphys talk about those definitions as If they complete each other.And yeah, perhaps Asriel battle is good example of "wil to change fate"amd what?? This is also a fantastic example of keeping hope regardless anything etc... But that doesnt mean that dt is related with anything more than the will to keep living."

Yes it does, stop being like Tsskyx and disregarding proof just because it doesn't fit your view.

"during pacifist end, Frisk has huge determination yes, but during Omega flowey fight, they havent, their soul doesnt even refuse during this battle."

Because they're weren't as determined as they were in the Asriel fight at that point.

"Given that dt's first definition is "the will to keep living", the "resolve to change fate"likely means the "firm will to change death", because here the two definitions complete each other."

Both are definitions used to describe DT, both mean the exact same thing, both are examples of firmness of purpose. Definitions fo not fold into another just because one cones before the other. That's idiocy, not logic.

Will to keep living - Firmness in your purpose to live.

Resolve to change fate - Firmness in your purpose to defy fate.

"Dt substance just cant have so different functions."

They're the SAME FUNCTION, FIRMNESS OF PURPOSE.

"And Alphys also never describe dt as the will to achieve goal,but specifically as the resolve to change fate and that part is important."

That's firmness of purpose.

"And even though she use  "the resolve to change fate "as definition of dt, she still says that it allow to persist and so overcome death,"

She says it allows SOULS to persist past death, nothing about overcoming it. Persist =/= Overcome.

"if dt really meant "the firness of purpose in general", how would it allow the human souls to persist?"

Humans inately want to live, that is their purpose, their SOUL is them, if it persist past death then they still technically live. Therefore they're unflinching in their purpose to live even in death, and their SOULS persist past death.

"The fact that it allow the human souls to persist indicates that dt is only related with the will to overcome death"

And the resolve to change fate, which is itself, firmness of purpose: which itself covers the will to keep living.

"And honestly, Frisk seems to only have huge will to keep living in the pacifist end battle,because they dont want to die as they want to save their friends"

They want to save their friends and the world, that's their purpose, and they're unflinching in accomplishing it. The whole scenario was nothing but then achieving that, nothing about wanting to live.

"See the pattern here? CONTINUING, as in REPEATING, doing things over again and again and again. Not being driven to achieve, or doing so to fulfill a purpose, simply REPEATING like a scientist or analyst."

What??? Perseverance is described in the game as somethimg that push you to go forward despite feeling traped. Thats because of their will to achieve their goal, so dt."

In other words, what I've said repeatedly. You've done nothing here but conflate the two things that have clearly been separated into two different things. Again.

"And how kindness etc .. have anything to do with perseverance?? Kidness is beimg kind,"

Repeatedly doing kind things is not the same thing as STAYING kind yourself.

"integrety being honest and original,"

Repeating that which makes you yourself is not the same as STAYING that way yourself.

"bravery with being brave,"

Repeatedly doing brave things is not the same as STAYING brave yourself.

"they have nothing to do with perseverance."

Perseverance - Analysis and Action.

Determination - Willpower and Tenacity.

"If Frisk had so much "firmness of purpose"their soul would be perseverance because perseverence shows your huge will to achieve your goal aka real world determination"

Perseverance is the ACTION of repeatedly doing the same thing over and over until you finish.

Determination (both in the game and real life) is the WILL to keep going and doing so over and over.

"The Purple SOUL is associated with the glasses and notepad, meaning Perseverance is more of an analytical approach rather than a compulsory one."

The fallen persevernce kid had analytical approach but that doenst mean that there's no other way to be perseverant."

Exactly, but that's clearly the more common method - you repeat patterns, learn them, and keep doing them until you get it right. Either by analyzing and realizing what you do wrong, or by literal trial and error.

"But that honestly doesnt matter, you can be analytical and have "the firmess to achieve goal", being analytical can help to achieve goal."

Of course.

"DT also completes the other traits, and all the traits complete DT. So, by your logic, there shouldn't be ANY Traits. Period."

How showing concern towards others, being honest match in anyway related to the firmess of purpose?"

You come across an enemy that wants to kill you, you repeatedly (Perseverance) compliment and be nice to them (Kindness), never changing your tactic even when your near death (Determination). They're touched, no longer want to fight, and you spare them.

What you're doing is what you think is right (Justice), so you keep doing it even when other alternatives are opened up to you (Integrity), you keep doing it no matter what untio you succeed (Determination.)

You're simply dodging attacks, waiting for the time to strike with either kindness or violence (Patience), you keep following this method because you want to triumph (Determination).

You've repeatedly (Perseverance) ran into danger and into challenges despite your fears (Bravery), you do this because you believe that this will usher you to victory (Determination).

You have many methods, and you're willing to try them all if it means succeeding (Determination).

"Except they didn't, they're dead. SAVE is not the same as defeating a god like entity, and literally refusing to DIE."

They at least get Asgore so that shows how much they were determined."

Yes.

"And again, Frisk only has huge dt during Asriels fight not during omega flowey fight where their soul even doesnt refuse when its destroyed."

Again, because they weren't as determined as they were in that fight at that point.

"And honestly, nothing implies that the save load power doesnt work on the surface."

Considering that even in Deltarune we can't use it on the surface, I think it's a safe bet that we can't at this point.

"The fallen humans may have only got this power in the underground because they were in permanent mortal danger. Frisk can also load their save point when they get the surface in the neutral end.So seems like all fallen humans were tye most determined beings in the world but still their soul wasnt red"

THA literally just explained this.

"BECAUSE DT WAS NOT THEIR TRAIT! THEY WERE THE MOST DETERMINED BEINGS IN THE UNDERGROUND BECAUSE THEY HAD MORE DT THAN EVERYONE ELSE, EVEN IF THEIR TRAIT ISN'T RED! THAT'S IT!"

AND SO WHAT PROOVE THAT ITS FRISK'S TRAIT?"

Everything that they've done is toward achieveing their goal of leaving the Underground/Sparing Everyone/Killing Everyone. Everything Frisk does is a result of and association with their Determination, much like how the other kids are implied to have done things and died by doing what's a result of their trait. (Running headlong into danger, doing only what you think is right, being kind, waiting, sticking to your own style, and repeating.)

"No, she was not. There is no correlation between the two at all in terms of pure definition; the will to keep living folds more into firmness of purpose than anything."

Yeah, theres relation to "firmess of purpose"but in Undertale, dt is only described as the firmess to specifically overcome death."

No, it's also associated with changing fate. The Monsters themselves even disprove this, by everything they do leading back to their goal of leaving the Underground and breaking the Barrier.

"determination as the firness of purpose in general likely exist in undertale but the substance alphys is talking about is specifically the resolve to change death.She called it determination because just like dt in general, this substance is a firm will to achieve something,here to change death, to keep living."

I'm going to tackle this in another reply.

"Yes it does. The word used is resolve, another form of the word resolution, meaning firmness of purpose."

Here the firmness to change death"

Death is not fate! Fate is fate!

"Yes, the game does imply that Frisk was suicidal on some level, but not only is it never brought up until the end, but it's even resolved by the time you leave Toriel the first time!"

If Frisk is suicidal sorry but their trait cant be determination because dt is the will to keep living, a polar opposite of suicide."

DETERMINATION IS NOT JUST THE WILL TO KEEP LIVING!

"And stop ignoring again the games implications of Frisk being suicidal:only silly random stuff give them the will to keep living as implied when you save, so what do you think would happen if those silly stuff dont give Frisk the will to keep living??"

I'm not, but YOU'RE the one blowing it out of proportion and simplifying things.

These little things don't make Frisk want to live more, they make them MORE DETERMINED, as in more determined to achieve their goal, more firm in their purpose.

"Yeah, they would try to "dissaper ". If those things give them the will to "keep living/dt"but not the fear of death, that implies that Frisk's will to keep living has nothing to do with the fear to die as monsters wants their death, that means that its related with their will to kill themself but those silly stuf give them the will to keep living."

Am I talking to brick wall that somehow became sentient and able to use computers?

"Yes, because he was injected with DT, and thus had it."

He LITERALLY WANTED TO DIE because of his inability to love, so no the injected dt no way influence Floweys own will to keep living otherwise he would never think of killing himself as dt is the "will to keep living". Plus he explains himself why he changed his mind about dying

"But as I left this mortal coil... I started to feel apprehensive. If you don't have a SOUL, what happens when you...? Something primal started to burn inside me. "No," I thought. "I don't want to die!" ..."

That was his fear to die, because he didnt know what happens when you die so its not due to the injected determination.Souless beings CAN have their own dt because every person aware of death can have "the will to keep living"."

Flowey came to life BECAUSE HE WAS INJECTED WITH DETERMINATION!

"Souless beings need injected dt to come back yes but how could they have their own dt while they are kinda dead?"

THEY DON'T, ALL THEY HAVE IS WHAT THEY WERE INJECTED WITH!

"That why they need other people's dt come back and that doesnt mean that they cant have own dt once they come back to life"

This is so stupid and ignorant of in-game information that I'm not even dignofying it with a response.

"Frisk and Chara are literally sharing a body, a SOUL, a LIFE. Frisk was the one in control, not Chara, and Chara literally says that the DT and SOUL that brought them back "

Again just because Frisks dt was something that brough Chara back doesnt mean that Chara cant have dt once they are alive."

Excelt they aren't alive. They're a bodyless spirit latching onto the SOUL of a child.

"Of course they hadnt any dt when they were dead because well.. when youre dead you cant have any conscience nor will to keep living but once you come back to life, you can."

Excdpt they're not alive.

"Obviously Frisk would see Chara's memories as they're being sent back, THEY SHARE A BODY. Even then, Frisk gains DT from seeing anything, from random silliness or predicaments others are in, to buildings in the distance that even vaguely associate with their goal."

The issue here is not that Frisk has Charas memories but that every time they dies those memories tell Chara to stay determined and right immediately frisk is sent back to their save point."

That doesn't mean Chara is the one doing it, Frisk is the one with the power, not Chara.

"Hearing suportive words from a kind sounding stranger that ENCOURAGES being determined isn't that far off."

Yeah, especially when this stranger encourage someone else to be determined"

The point is still gotten across, and it's still no stranger than everything else. My point stands.

"You are not Frisk, people are not restricted by logic and reason, they more often than not do, think, and act outside of reason."

So i should ignore logic according to you??"

No, I was pointing out a VERY REAL, VERY TRUE FACT about humanity. You keep thinking of Frisk in terms of logic, facts, and what SHOULD happen. Not in terms of what they are: HUMAN.

"Think about it, why would toby include the message telling Chara to be determined and right after sent Frisk to save point??"

As a hint to Chara and Frisk connection, and another means for Frisk to be determined.

"And after all Flowey confirms that you need to be determined to come back to the save point,"

Yes, Frisk has Determination, they'rethe ones with the power. We've already established that, honey.

"that means that Charas dt was something that bring Frisk back to the save point,"

No, it's not.

"that keep them alive since the message telling to be determined wasnt adressed to Frisk but Chara. When Frisk dies, they loose all of their dt but chara doesnt."

Chara has none, it's all Frisk DT.

"So, Frisk is in no way determined kid. The only real instance where they are is Asriel's fight."

And literally the game in its entirety.

"It doesn't REPRESENT DT, it's a MANIFESTATION of DT, and yes there is a difference."

And where the difference?Anyway the manifestation of their dt is yellow.

Manifestation - An action, event, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or abstract idea.

Embody - To be an expression of or give a tangible or visible form to (an idea, quality, or feeling).

Represent - Describe or depict in a certain way.

The SAVE Points are ckearly a SHOWING of Determination, not DT itself.

"They played the game until they got the red flags, played until they got the ball into the hole in the fastest and quickest time and way possible. I do believe that is firmness of purpose."

You played the ball game to get the other flags aswell. Plus the red flag never says stuff like "by keeping your firmess to achieve your goal regardless anything, you won at the ball game"but literally says that Frisk used all the traits to get the red flag. That indicates that Frisk's red soul is the mix of all the 6 traits not determination. Not only that, but the only freaking stuff(ball game) that associate a color with a soul trait never associate the red with dt. Instead with the "hole"and "ball game"suggesting that its a neutral trait by default that either turn into the one of the 6 traits or remain red if you have personality's trait that mix them as personalitys traits. .So, its possibly the trait every human is born with."

And what better trait than Determination?

"Theres no evidence that red soul is dt, thats never implied in the game. Also often contradicted since Chara was a suicidal kid who tried "to erase themself from existence "by climbing the mountain."

Plenty of it in fact, and that's not even remotely correct.

"Flowey confirm it in the genocide run and he wasnt talking about the buttercup suicide because they didnt try to "erase themself"doing so, but to fuse with Asriel to free the monsters so Flowey is making a reference to their "unhappy "reason to climb the mountain."

He outright said that they hated humanity, clearly they went doen for reasons that are not suicidal.

"Frisk is also implied to be suicidal as they climbed the mountain where people dissapear and only silly stuff give them now the will to keep living and they are the most determined being because they are fused with Chara and Chara after death has huge dt as implied by the fact that they bring Frusk back to life every time they die, possibly they are so much determined because they want to finish what they started and free the monsters, to fulfil their role as the "future of humans and monsters"(chara seems to believe that meant to "free the monsters"since they would likely never believe that monsters think its possible to live in peace with humans)."

1 - Chara NEVER DOES THAT.

2 - Determination is just SOLELY the will to keep living. STOP SIMPLIFYING IT.

3 - Nothing is ever implied about Chara "having huge dt" after they die. In Genocide, they literally say that they woke up AT THE FLOWER PATCH confused about what happened, and even say THAT THE SOUL AND DT ARE NOT THEIRS. THEY HAVE NO DETERMINATION.

"The only real instance where Frisk is determined is during Asriels battle"

And literally the entire game.

"Frisk is also described as having strong feeling of hope in their eyes by Asgore but does that means that their souls trait is hope? Probably not. Humans in undertale are complex individuals so just because they show one characteric doesnt mean it reflects their personality's trait"

IT'S THEIR MOST PROMINENT AND DEFINING TRAIT, THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S THE ONLY THING THEY HAVE AS PEOPLE!