Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170806013410

1.1) In all honesty, it doesn't matter anymore. As long as we can sufficiently explain why those humans abandoned their own items in the first place.

2) New Home. And no, the ruins are called that because they've been abandoned since 201X, and you know what time can do to buildings already.

2.1) All of that can be explained using tech that we possess today. And the rearranging of the CORE? Sure, that's some advanced tech right there. God knows how Gaster did it. As I said, futuristic technologies + magic = wonders. And don't pull the ancient magicians into this. We all know how that looks like. Recall the Harry Potter series. I'm not saying that that's how it would look like if humans still had powerful mages, but they certainly wouldn't have skyscrapers. They would be too busy studying magic instead of advanced ballistics and telecommunications.

2.2) Ok, why don't you ask Toby himself then?

3) So you're saying that Chara wouldn't provide narration for us if we were the bad guys? Well, they did, and so did they when we were good, so their reason for narrating must be something else. I say it's because they're enjoying the run. In both cases, they're enjoying it. And besides, recall what Chara said. That when they first woke up, they were confused. So either we show them that they were wrong (killing is not the way to go), by doing the right thing, or that they were right (killing IS the way to go), and that there's no reason for this world to exist.

Also, I'm reindexing this. So 3.1 instead of 3.01 from now on. And in case of confusion, the new index is the one before a slash.

3.1) The only time Chara remembers a reset is if you gave them your soul. And if you did, it means you already did the worst route possible. So in either case a backstab isn't possible. Once because they won't remember it, and once because you already did the worst thing possible. Just show me some proof of Chara remembering a reset on a non-genocide route and I'll change my mind.

3.2) Still, not reacting doesn't equal not caring.

3.3) I think this video can answer it for you. It does go over this problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYHXpdNqdGs

And there's also a follow-up video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uY1Eyk8frk

I don't recall when they go over this, I just know it's somewhere in those two videos. So, if there is anything that doesn't sit right with you in those two videos, then just point me to the video and timestamp and I'll answer you.

3.4)  Alright I get it.  So Chara was in control then after all. I always thought that that's where the boundary is. But I guess not, I guess it's only after the Mettaton fight, or rather after the Sans fight, since then you have no mercy option available anymore. What a surprise. If they can kill Asriel without a thought, then they must be pretty mad at him. But not only that, we too have influenced their thinking. Just as it was said in the video I linked to above, children are impressionable.

3.5) I still see no problem with that. It's a job well done. But only if you erase the world. As I said above, at point 3.

If you agree that Chara isn't evil, then why are you bringing all this stuff up?

"Oh, and by the way, they're killing their own loved ones AGAIN by messing up your pacifist ending." -  <span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Ruining the last nice moment by doing a creepy face or crossing someone out on a photo doesn't imply killing someone.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">3.6 /3.2) May I point out how many "added assumptions" YOU have made? I just see Chara realizing that Frisk didn't laugh-cry, so I assume that Frisk didn't do anything at all, since TRYING to laugh again prompts the narration "but it's not funny". Ergo, Frisk failed to laugh. Since there's nothing funny in the first place.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Similarly, "but nobody came" refers to calling out, seeking help. Trying to laugh -> but it's not funny. Calling for help -> but nobody came. This is why I think that option is just trying to laugh, not actually laughing. Don't you agree? I think this makes sense.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4) It's what we assume about that entry. Recall that post about Sans and Gaster I linked to. It seems, due to its intensity, that that was THE last experiment Gaster did. Not just because he calls it the lastest one. No, it's mainly because of the shaking text, and its presumed "absoluteness". There isn't really much to disprove this, so people just go with it. The entry exists, so they connect it. If we were to stick just to proven facts, and abandon all assumptions, we wouldn't even be sure whether Alphys created Flowey, since that's an assumption too. And nah, we hear the HUD sound when Sans does that. You said that yourself.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.1) Nah, I go with the glitched duplication hypothesis. It would mean that Sans doesn't need to rush and teleport his station each time Frisk or Undyne or Papyrus pass by, and would also technically explain the snow. If you see a tree in the distance and look away, you can no longer see it. But is the tree still there? Well of course it is.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.2 /4.1A) "Name the fallen human". I was mostly pointing at how we first think we're naming Frisk, but then at the end of the game learn their true name. This is like the biggest plot twist in the entire game. Why would Toby do this? It just makes me think that perhaps he wanted us to realize that we aren't Frisk, nor that we are in control of them. If you just let the idea that Frisk is someone with their own story and character into your head, then a lot of things will become much simpler.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.3) "<span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">If we were just carrying out their actions that are already predetermined, there wouldn't BE multiple routes." -  <span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Have you ever heard of interactive stories? Even books can be made that way. You just go to the indexed chapter based on your choice.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.4 /4.1B) He's not doing it for honor, wtf are you saying again?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.5) You're saying they can see the HUD, and yet you also said that you think Frisk is the only one who's able to see it.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.6 /4.2)

<p style="font-weight:normal;">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5aGpVeF9MTFR4Mms

<p style="font-weight:normal;">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5bW1nelptMTlmUVk

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.7) Dear god do you really think the humans would do exactly the same thing as the spell applied to Frisk's soul? Do you really think that for example perseverance literally walked on strings?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.8 /4.3) Why exactly do you think that Sans can see all the stuff on your screen, but Asgore can't? Sans can't even remember the resets, so why should he know about the other stuff too? We know that he's well-informed mostly due to reading faces or something, but I don't think reading faces would help him with the HUD. After all, he doesn't focus his attack, he just places a bone over every button available.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.9) He thinks he's speaking to Chara, if I may remind you. And this is why I think not everything in Undertale should be taken literally. There is no one else that Flowey could have meant BUT the potential audience. But Flowey, as a person in the game, can't know about any of that. So it's dismissable. All of this 4th wall fuckery, including the HUD, including Sans's actions are dismissable. That is my opinion. If we want to make a consistent theory, we must first STOP thinking outside the box and focus on the story itself. No HUD, no bullshit, nothing.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.10) Why 201X then? Why? Seems like too big of a coincidence, doesn't it?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.11) "<span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The characters Undertale flat-out mention and ABUSE these mechanics, so they must be canon" - Not if you can explain it without it. Which I did. Besides, not doing so would mean that Flowey knows about YouTube. And Sans didn't convince me. I just dismissed him. I never really understood what's so interesting about him. He's just a normal skeleton with a shady past. So what that he knows about saving and loading? That's all there is to it anyways, so why bother. There isn't enough evidence that the HUD is canon. Most of the characters don't know about it at all. One character isn't enough to convince me. If anything, they're an exception to a rule. They don't redefine the rule, since that would break everything. I am only convinced that the stats and the S/L/R mechanics are a part of the Undertale world, and the HUD is meant for us and us only. Maaaaybe some characters are more knowledgeable about it, like Sans, but nothing indicates that Frisk is too. And Asgore? Why is it so hard fto think that breaking the button could just have been a metaphor?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.12) Flowey isn't a human. That's why. And if you were asking what happened to the bodies, I think the monsters just moved them someplace else. It would be weird if they were alive. Maybe impossible. I guess we would have living corpses then.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.13) "<span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">You MUST deal damage to the SOUL to have any effect."

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> So you're saying you could decapitate some human and they would be fine? You said that the soul is a culmination of one's being, and now you're also saying that you must only hit the soul. Doesn't that imply that hitting the body deals damage to the soul too?

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> 4.14) " <span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">When you're filled with determination, you can heal yourself." What about those times when accessing a save point does not prompt that specific narration? I believe you still get healed then.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">5) Do you think that Frisk was just summoned into existence when we opened the game? Do you think they didn't exist prior to that? Humans aren't quarks, they can't pop in and out of existence, so Frisk did have a life before falling down. So we aren't forming their character, they already have one. Therefore, they're separated from us. Therefore, we aren't roleplaying anyone, we're merely carrying out their actions. As I said, somebody has to play the game. And so why should Frisk see the same that we see?

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">5.1) I'm sorry but you already convinced me. The sound is played because Sans DOES enter a battle with you for a split second.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">5.2) That's flawed logic. Sans doesn't know he's in a videogame, and yet he uses its mechanics.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">6) Why would Flowey assume that Frisk wanted to absorb Asgore's soul and leave? Because of how they acted since entering the underground. Why are you trying to disprove such simple statement that actually makes sense?