Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180711202042

"Well, how about we tinker them back to what the game presents them as?"

They represent combat styles. Patience, bravery, kindness and justice are obvious. The surefire accuracy thing applies more to the ball game itself than to the mode, but the mode is still about shooting. With green, you are being kind to your soul, remember that. The definition of blue agrees with the mode, but the name is a bit abstract. But perhaps it's a reference to Toriel, how she's described with that word by Sans. And purple's description agrees with Muffet's battle, as well as with what the purple human's hobby was. And the word itself, perseverance, maybe refers to the fact that you must go through the entire fight, you can't cut it short, for Muffet's stubbornness. And red may as well be the sum of all of them, while nothing new on its own.

That's all there is to it. What I'm doing rather has more to do with connecting these with the human psychology itself, something the game didn't really elaborate on that much.

"So instead of tinkering the game to fit chakras, we should be tinkering chakras to fit the game."

I'm actually doing the latter too.

"Not only that, how could they draw a monster with a human SOUL, without knowing what that is?"

Folklore? Maybe it was merely an artistic rendition. If you recall, Toby wanted to originally put the Omega Flowey silhouette there, but withdrawed, because it made no sense. Well, the DT extractor also makes no sense, it's not like it imbued itself into the DT that would later on be injected into Flowey or something.

"By the way, they never directly denied that a monster had ever absorbed a human SOUL."

Alright. In a way, it does make sense. The humans feared this. It didn't say it never happened. The illustration is there. Is there anything else that would contradict this? For example, the plaques are very inconsistent in their narrative (as if multiple people wrote them). The motive is also missing. Why would a monster absorb a human soul to begin with? The rest of the game kinda implies the humans are at fault. So maybe, no one else knew that this has happened, hence why it looked like the humans attacked for no reason and without a warning. Still, I don't think they covered it up. Else they would say it didn't actually happen. So yes, I don't think there were any witnesses of this that could then lie about this. So they had no reason to state so. But then again, they did say what the humans feared. Maybe they coincidentally concluded it correctly? I mean, why would they know but NOT lie that it hasn't actually happened?

What do you think?

"The simplest answer is that mental note-taking IS a part of the purple trait. There, all done!"

That is a bit specific. And I would imagine such would be more universal. Assuming an equal distribution, why should only a 7th of the population be clever enough to take mental notes of something?

"Why would the monsters put in the aspect about mental note-taking, if that wasn't actually a part of the trait?"

Because they guessed?

"So.. Using meta arguments.. To exclude meta..? ..Something doesn't add up here."

No meta arguments. I reject the meta.

"ONE player, MULTIPLE floweys? Yeah, that doesn't add up."

A call towards our world. But it works both ways.

"In-universe, these are all just physical laws."

They look like the laws of a simulation to me.

"Undertale was created to make game mechanics canon concepts"

And I am not rejecting their existence. Just morphing them so that they wouldn't be so stupidly meta. You don't believe that the battles in the Pokemon world are happening in turns, do you? No, it's more like the TV show. Same thing here, the idea of turns being canon just isn't clicking for me. If everything works the way we see it, then we may as well admit that we're observing a universe that is simulated. Because what's the difference, really? No one is questioning these strange laws, most of which take effect only during a battle against a human... it's as if everyone was also a part of the simulation, designed not to ask any questions, with the exception of Sans, who is at least allowed to address it. Or DO you have an explanation for this?

If you want a meta explanation for everything, just dig up the game's code, it reveals absolutely everything to you.

"But, if at first you don't succeed, then try, try again!"

> https://outpostrecruitment.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Einstein-insanity-quote.jpg

Whatever makes you happy.

"So by that logic, why are we theorizing at all, and calling them theories, rather than what you argue they actually are?"

Because we want to expand upon the story, we want to go beyond what the code itself is giving us. Isn't that right?

"I didn't say he planned on revealing it"

Then the simpler explanation is, that it doesn't exist.

"He had in mind an expansive world"

He had in mind a cool game.

"Having something in mind doesn't mean sharing it."

Well he could have at least hinted at it. But no, all we got, was one city on the surface. He didn't even bother to add the humans, that were implied to be there, into the final animation. The UT world is underground-centric to him. I understood this when I first saw the PS4 animation. It was the background of this wikia with starry crystals above. And an occasional annoying dog silhouette for a good measure.

"Take literally the entire world of Gravity Falls, minus the town OF Gravity Falls, for example."

GF does speak of the outside world. Shows it to us on numerous occassions even. Sends people from it to Gravity Falls and vice versa. Undertale just... ends.

"Doesn't look like he's planning anything."

Well I don't think he's just sitting on his ass 24/7 like we do either.

"That's because we were trying to do everything in the wrong order."

EVERYONE tried to approach it differently. We tried everything already. There is reason why blogs like saveloadreset stopped theorizing. They understood that there's nothing left for them anymore.

"They never said it was a game, and plenty of evidence that it's not."

I could say the same for the converse.

"Yeah. But we can start with each of the major questions that CAN be solved, and use those answers as pieces of their own."

We disagree even on those answers.

"So one's lighter. That's an aspect of the HUD, not Frisk."

Implying there is a concept of morality woven into the game itself. The game has one true ending, as implied by the game numerous times. So, if it has a world of its own, where every outcome has an equal weight, then what's the explanation for there being only one true ending? The one in charge picking it. Frisk.

"Still isn't confirmation of us playing as Chara."

We aren't playing as Chara you idiot. That's proven. But they do represent the player stereotype.

"Chara can only leave the world by first destorying it, though."

It would make more sense per this stereotype if that wasn't a condition. That they do it solely because they want to. I mean, we never have to smash a game we finish to move on, do we?

"Plus, the line turns out to be a total con, because we never have the option to actually do what they say and see them in the next world."

Because there isn't one. They're obeying the stereotype. Like a machine, you could say. They aren't programmed to know that there's nothing else beyond this world.

"It's just as revelant there as it is in Pacifist."

Well they don't do anything fancy in that route. Which is what I meant.

"Neither can I imagine a physical law that makes magical spells work the way they do in Harry Potter."


 * Undertale.

And I figured it out. Magic is a new state of matter, the essence is the soul's program (telling it what to do and stuff), and the commands get uploaded into the essence directly from the brain, using magical strains that connect the brain and the essence. Magic can talk with itself, influence itself, which is how the essence manipulates the spells.

Imagine the essence like a second brain. How does it tell the magic what and how to conjure something? The same way that your brain tells your arm how to move.

This is still easier to understand than something SOMEHOW breaking simultaneity. Because the only idea I'm getting for that, is some master program halting pockets in the universe in such a way that its inhabitants can't move, but can still bounce around their bodies (like Sans does it) and don't find it weird. It's still incredibly strange even if it applied for the underground only. Because such assumes the existence of a near-perfect machine that mediates all of this. A machine that basically turns the realistic world into a game interface.

And you keep telling me that it's not a game. Please, such explanation practically BEGS us to default to the simpler option, that it's always been a game/simulation.

"We're not SUPPOSED to be using real-world mechanics!"

Then I am allowed to believe in the simplest option, that it's all just a simulation.

"If the game doesn't take note of it, there is no reason to assert that it MUST be canon"

Then the idea of slashes being invisible isn't canon.

"Yeah, but I took note of how both added up to 100%"

Coincidence, my dude. It could have been 40% 40%, or 75% 34%, idc. My point was, you haven't fulfilled either approach. You failed at both. That's a proof that your theory suuuuucks. Or MAYBE, your approach is absolutely correct, but it's Undertale's fault. That shit is indescribable.

"being in both places at once doesn't give you half and half"

But you aren't fully in two places at once, both of them are half-broken for you.

"Which is why I don't plan on using that. I use canon and logic, not meta."

I'm doing the same, can't you see? I'm totally ignoring the meta and using the canon and logic instead.

"with no need for canon regard"

Bullshit.

"In theorizing, the goal is to find out how Undertale works."

No, there's the code for that. If you want to find a deeper meaning behind everything, you must abandon the meta and start doing what the AU creators are doing. And have you ever heard of the concept of a faithful AU? One that actually obeys the story and doesn't change anything? Only explains something in a different way, at most? That's my AU. Everything is the same in it, I just chose to opt out of the HUD being so meta. I'm not censoring Sans's speech about turns, I just chose to interpret it as taking abstract turns of a combat (e.g. one person attacking, the other defending, and afterwards the other way around), not the actual in-game turns.

"[citation needed]"

No, no no no no. You prove yourself first. I am not obligated to prove anything, you are obligated to prove your claim that there's something hidden first. When you make a claim, you prove it, not ask others to provide proof of their disagreements with you on it. If I say that the Riemann hypothesis is false and then tell everyone to prove me wrong, does that make me a credible person, or a moron? You yourself are responsible for your own claims, no one else is.

"The only real contradictions you've brought up is a contradiction between implied mechanics and factual mechanics."

That's right... implied mechanics. That's what everyone is theorizing about most of the time. But the factual mechanics still imply a simulation.

"We make the HUD some sort of magical construct of the universe in the conversion process."

Hmm, a near-divine construct... something like the Matrix perhaps? It is masking the reality, changing it. It's very similar to a simulation. We might as well say that it is a simulation.

"But, you'll have to come up with an alternative explanation for both monsters not dodging, and Sans dodging."

No one is skilled in fight (or expects us to fight, really), except for the royal guards and the king. Toriel wanted us to prove our strength, the canine unit mainly relies on other senses than sight, Papyrus is... Papyrus, Undyne wanted to show us her strength, the royal guards... I guess they either aren't really qualified, or can't move as much as we can, and Asgore refuses to dodge. Sans is the only one that takes this absolutely seriously and is agile enough to actually dodge - every single time in fact. Does this work?

"And it being initiated by the button."

What if there's no button? I belive in the save/reset buttons, but not these.

"Determination is a magical aspect"

Yes, but its existence doesn't imply the existence of a simulation as much as the HUD masking the true reality and its mechanics does.

"But now they accept it as just another mechanic about their world."

Even if some of them never met a human before? It's implied that these mechanics take place only when they encounter us.

"That's why Undyne decides to attack in a way so that her turn lasts for a long amount of time."

I'm hearing that for the first time.

"Not everyone's a scientist. Not everyone does this kind of research."

You still have those other hypothetical monster questions I gave.

"Looks like a glitch."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-fcrn1Edik

"Which is exactly why we won't learn the order of the humans falling. But we can get SOME information, although in some areas, there exist multiple possibilities, just as a 16-clue Sudoku contains muktiple solutions."

Sure, you can construct any story whatsoever with so few clues. That's why so many AUs exist after all. But there is no obvious single truth. You won't find it.

"Just convert what the game talks about into that world's mechanics, and you naturally get Undertale's canonical world. It's that simple!"

If something is masking the true reality, that's a leftover from the meta - where Toby had no other way but to use the classical Pokemon / Touhou Project battle mechanics to show off the battles. So okay, he said it's canon. Good, I don't mind, but I mind how it looks like. The interface is and always has been a bridge between a "reality" of any sort and a game screen. It's existence therefore implies the presence of a simulation. If we want to keep the things it brings canon, we must take a different approach, if we don't want this to become a game. We can't just say that it's not a game, because that makes no sense. It only makes sense if it were a simulation.

"That would imply he already used his special attack at the start."

There is no special attack. That was just intimidation.

"Correct. But now, we know such a concept is plausible. Now, can we not imagine that in the alternative universe that is Undertale, something similar can happen with the buttons?"

I cannot imagine it happening on such a large scale, and with such precise shapes, shaped like letters and whatnot.

"Or perhaps a type of magic?"

Conscious magic maybe. I mean, drawing with magic is something I would accept. But the letters we see rather look like a computer font, not something hand-drawn.

"I said INVERSLY related. As in, magic reduces your DT and/or SOUL power kind of relationship."

Works for me. Too much DT destroys magic after all.

"why should we say what the game directly told us is wrong?"

Because it may have been a plot mechanic, to shock us? I think in-game evidence stands above info that came seemingly out of nowhere. At least, for in-game theories.

"Hey, she was doing actual experiments when she reached this conclusion."

That doesn't make her the prophet of the holy truth or anything. Besides, she incorrectly assumed injecting the DT into the souls would result in the body dying and them persisting. There's your proof that even scientists can be wrong. In this universe, that is.

"The proof being right in front of her."

She did exactly what she said in the entries. She followed logic and nothing else. She did not bother to do any more research on monster physiology.

"Feeling like she already knows them. Not feeling like this has happened before"

Same thing. The others say it too:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6gS2LPXdIc5ZjNTRWUyOV9YdnM/view https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5RDgxV3BBcFBOWW8 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yrBmpg5t6SpNR_ZPiQW8pCv90_cPdkpa/view

"Not when Frisk comes into play."

I've already explained that.

"why he wasn't feeling the guilt when the other humans showed up."

The strength of monsters comes from their will to fight. He's fully lost that on the 7th encounter. No reason why there, but it certainly played in our favor.

"When did she mention having these feelings with the other humans?"

She didn't. So she couldn't have fought them. We are her first.

"It doesn't."

Then explain the way it behaves, like how it looks like it's waving.

"The twilight shining through means sunlight IS visible there, placing it closer to the Surface."

Well, it's a straight walk into and from that room. It would still shine through.

"At least it's a more conpact soup"

>at least

At least not all jews died in the holocaust.

"Here, canon is what matters when theorizing."

But the canon makes no sense. Not with the HUD being canon and whatnot.

"That can be measured im indivisible units?"

That's micro-cosmos. Atoms and whatnot. I was speaking of macro-cosmos.

"So why was it only used for yellow?"

Because repeating words instead of using synonyms does not make for a very nice effect. I've read a few fanfictions that were like that. It's like the person is directly explaining the plot to you, rather than some narrator speaking.

"Time reversal can resolve any case, though."

But it doesn't allow you to see one's thoughts. That's why yellow exists. To reveal them. Because not always do you know where to look in the real world, and sometimes, it's not even something that you CAN look for.

"They know that turns exist"

How? Don't tell me every single one of them met a human before.

"but finding out that it happens after pressing some invisible button, and then being able to predict WHEN it will happen is far more difficult"

That's not what I care about. All I want to know, is why none of them comment about the invisible attack.

"The number of villagers there was far higher than two."

I thought you meant the power. The stuff we were discussing always concerned power, not the counting of objects. That's a thing in our universe too, you know.