Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20180104155430/@comment-32182236-20180914224258

"Some of it is, some of it isn't. Both Frisk (which is the player), and Chara are evil, but Chara is ONLY evil during the game-They weren't like this in their backstory. The main things that changed them were Asriel betraying them and the fact that they are now SOULless."

"Hi, I know I likely haven't explained this in the most convincing of ways in either post. Mostly because I was on like 6 hours of sleep(, the link (https://determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this) explains the analysis best."

You've actually contradicted it before:Even that analysis agrees that you play as Frisk, and that final speech was Flowey talking to Chara. (Yes, he was talking to Chara.)

"Anyways, onto this. Well, being SOULless does not make you evil by default. Even Flowey says, this, while being soulless and discovering his RESET power, after a "pacifist", he then did a "genocide" and when he first started killing he felt guilty but he just wanted to see what would happen and over time the killing got easier. He couldn't love anyone, but after getting used to the death he sure could LOVE everyone."

Sure, you don't instantly become evil by being SOULless, that was just half the story. The other half was Asriel getting the two of them killed.

"And again, at the end of Pacifist, he becomes good."

For a while. Give him a few months, and he'll surely devolve ot being evil once again.

"A soulless person has limitations, but not inevitabilities. They can show concern for others and retain a portion of their past identity."

Sure, they do retain it for that way. But without any actual love, you're going to start losing that as things happen. And that person literally getting you KILLED is probably enough to do that. (It's not just he cheated at a game or ratted you out-He basically got you KILLED. Chara probably thinks Asriel is directly responsible for the murder:Aka, Asriel helped kill Chara:Ergo, Asriel doesn't appear to care about Chara AT ALL anymore. Basically, they think of Asriel the same way those people who think Chara was evil in life think of Chara.)

"And well, just because Asriel betrayed them doesn't mean Chara would want to kill him outright, if your beloved friend (in Chara's case even adoped sibling) betrays you, you'd be depressed at first you might even deny it and think of excuses, it might turn to anger over time but you wouldn't want to kill them would you?"

If he basically killed me outright, and all of my love had vanished (no SOUL?) He was probably never my friend to begin with, was he?

"And again, even being soulless doesn't SPARE you from the guilt of doing such an thing..."

Chara probably sees it as an act of justice, if anything.

"And once more, Chara is not evil during the game unless you, with "your guidance" show them the ways of the dark side. You say you know narrator theory, well does the narrator prompt for any evil to be done ever?"

I've given you several cases of this. "Let's finish the job." "Froggit attacks you."

"No. They do give you choices however, in the form of the U. I. but they sit back and watch YOU. Teacher."

They don't create the UI-That exists on its own, just like the save files do. Flowey didn't have Chara as a narrator before we came around making the UI now, did he? All they are is the narrator that creates the narration text.

"And as soon as the first Whimsun, class is in session."

But what about that first Froggit which they flat-out state is attacking you, before the Froggit even made its move? Either Chara's trying to get you to kill an innocent monster, or Froggit actually wants to kill you, and thus, monsters aren't so innocent after all, and Genocide might not be an actual evil genocide (at least not until we kill Papyrus, but by that time, the narration about killing is already obvious) Which is it?

"No that was in self-defense Chara could not have foreseen that attack, but Asriel did not want to kill for ANY reason."

They did-That's the only reason why they brought their body to the surface in the first place-To attract the humans' attention, then mention to Asriel how humans would attack just because Asriel's holding a body, somehow reaching the baseless assumption that Asriel's a murderer, and thus, they deserve to all die.

"Stopping them. Again, nobody's normal reaction to a betrayal by a close friend is murder."

That's because the betrayal isn't itself normally murder, and people actually have SOULs.

"Sure there are, instead of letting them rot, they pushed you save him reminding you of "someone else" that needs to be saved though remembering Frisk could do no more than call their name, as they has no good times to use to revive Asriel, but Chara did (cue slideshow), besides, after his rousing speech about really really caring about Chara more than anyone ever, after regaining himself, there is no way Chara wasn't moved to tears of forgiveness, they were "..." throughout the whole thing."

Look, if Chara didn't do that, Asriel would win, and gain control over the timeline. Now I'm pretty sure Chara doesn't want that to happen.

Also, right after that speech, Asriel then decides that Frisk is the friend they always wanted, not Chara, and then reaffirms his initial position-That he should NOT have killed the humans, and it was worth getting the both of them killed, because he doesn't want to declare war on humanity (you know, that evil race that you really really hate, Chara?)

So, Asriel basically tosses Chara aside, replaces them with Frisk, and then says getting Chara killed was worth keeping humanity alive. That sound like him making up with Chara?

"And gave no hostile descriptions towards Asriel ever. Just a hopeless one at first saying "it's the end" and all, until he went rainbowy then they started getting childish and happy."

If yellow means it's important, and red means that it's a strong, emotional event, rainbow probably means both are combined, along with some other conditions (the ones of the other colors). Now, if it's literally the end, and Asriel's about to unleash the apocalypse, don't you think that justifies such a flashy title-To signify just how proportionally important this foe is?

"Chara: "Asriel Dreemur (all rainbow-y), the absolute GOD (someone is hyping!) of hyperdeath!" and describing all the "cool" (actually childishly named XD) attacks in CAPSLOCK."

Hyperdeath. Yeah. He's a "god", yes, but so was Ares, God of War. And something tells me Chara was going for something similar to Ares here.

"Interestingly, if you notice, Flowey's creepy face has some of the mouth details from Hyperdeath Asriel, seems like he was playing this game all along!"

Yep.

"Just too dead kids best friends playing one more time.... Asriel and his OC. Maybe "the demon that comes when people call it's name" is Chara's OC, and their creepy face goes with it.. A theory from the link."

Makes you wonder why they used that term when speaking to you, but not to Asriel. That is, if your take on it's actually true..

"Anyways this changes back to "..." and "This is the end." when Asriel deciedes he's had enough of the game and takes his true form."

Yep. And Chara doesn't want it to be the end. They want a way out of this. They don't want Asriel to take control of everything.

"They did not, they are utterly neutral, they just watched you and nothing more their Level of Violence was at One with as it is with 0 Execution Points, only acting on what you do. And honestly the fact they were taking a backseat while you showed them what to do (unlike the lead they took on Asriel) shows they had utterly lost faith in knowing the correct answer themselves."

I've mentioned a few lines that show they weren't taking a backseat right now. And let me ask again, why do they trust YOU to teach them? You're a human, and they hate humanity.

"Chara never had to rely on anyone's "guidance" before now..."

But now they're dead, and they need someone to get them alive again. Someone to help awaken them from death. Guide them towards new life.

"What? No. Not that quickly he still has time to visit Chara's grave and even tell you a bit more about what happened back then if you all the way back to the start in the good end before leaving."

By "quickly", I meant "in less than one day." Yes, you can visit Asriel, but once you reach the Surface, and try to play Pacifist again, Asriel did indeed turn back into Flowey. And if you're only Asriel for a few hours at most, that's pretty short-lived, don't you think?

"Yes he isn't deflowered but he's a changed Flowey now, he says so himself when you try to start up the game again after Pacifist. He says he couldn't bear another reset and shows concern over Frisk and the gang. I say he's no longer a lost soul, desperately searching for that friend they lost."

Of course not, he's found Chara again. He even talks to Chara. But wait. Why did he assume that Chara's seen the message a hundred times already?

...Also, that's JUST after Asriel turned back into Flowey. As I said above, give him a few months. There's a reason why Asriel said he can't go back to the surface with you, and to not think of him as Asriel anymore once he turns back into Flowey. He himself knows he's doomed to spiral back into our corrupt flower.

"He is SAVEd. They even assert their dominance over Chara, which they could not do when they talked. Even after Chara likely questioned the plan and likely asked for his opinion and Asriel replied "No! I'd never doubt you Chara, ever!""

Asriel was the one questioning the plan, then, after something unknown that Chara said, Asriel said he'd never doubt Chara. This implies Chara probably said something like "Are you doubting my plan? Are you doubting me?"

"We know this isn't from abuse (as some theorize) as we know Chara and Asriel were very close, and this was "our plan" even if due to his inability to doubt his best friend, Asriel took a submissive role in the plan. They obviously shared deeply personal things. "I know why Chara climbed the mountain"- Asriel."

Yes, they did. They were clearly real friends in that time.

"Even if they couldn't even share with Asriel why they hated Humanity as easily as they could share being suicidal."

My theory on why Chara took their body to the village was to SHOW them that reason. Just saying it wouldn't do it justice-They were going to SHOW them why, so Asriel could see for himself.

"And Asriel repeats again and again "You're the only one that truly understands me", Chara who as narrator tends to deeply analyze Frisk's feelings made Asriel feel understood likely by doing the same. They're empathetic in nature. A shrink. Literally "a small child climbed up mount ebott""

Well, it's to Frisk, thinking that it's Chara, but I'll give you that Chara was the only one to understand Asriel when they were alive, because that's pretty much proven. ( The quote was something like "Even now, you're still the only one that understands me", and we had "We're still inseparable, even after all these years..")

"And we see their mutual best friend gifts they gave to each other, Chara giving Asriel the "worn dagger" described in pacifist by Chara as perfect for cutting vines and other gardening uses (while in genocide it's called a "real knife" instead for obvious reasons. Even if since it's worn it wasn't too useful for the purpose of killing but Asgore hid all the knives "Where are the Knives?!" so this is as close to a real knife as you can get and with LV you can kill any monster as their souls are weak to it.) ​ And Asriel giving Chara a "best friends" locket of which one was likely worn by perhaps Chara or him while the other stayed behind. (Unless the gifts were never swaped and just remain on each other's side of the room in which case it would still make sense, as in-game evidence shows they liked gardening and it would be cuter if Chara gave them the locket especially they tend to work hard when they do things like knitting Asgore's sweater so it makes sense alot more care would go into Chara's gift perhaps they made the locket themselves.)"

Yes, they were friends.

"Point is, Asriel spilled how much he cares about Chara during his fight and the feeling is mutual."

"If you win, you won't want to play with me anymore! So I'll just make it last forever!"-Asriel (rephrased)

"When Asriel is involved you are either too far into pacifist or too far into Genocide to get a neutral answer, in pacifist they help you save him."

They don't make the button appear.

"In Genocide they well no, they don't murder him, YOU DO. No really you have to press Z yourself."

You have to press Z to advance dialouge all the time-Pressing Z advances the cutscene:Besides, there was no fight button, and you had no other choice. Here, I have a link too:http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/145625412741/chara-kills-flowey-without-your-permission

"But once you do, they keep stabbing. They're getting it over with, and after this final act of murder, of their own god damn brother. . They are at a point of no return where they go on to murder Asgore and tell you their spiel."

They kill Asgore BEFORE Asriel shows up.

"Where the genocide run cannot be aborted."

Once you reach Asgore, it's already too late.

"There are absolutely no hints that Chara wanted this done themselves."

What about the quotes I just gave you? Those WERE the hints I was talking about. Go on, explain them.

"They give you absolutely no pointers on how to deal with a monster, they just give you a set of options and watch YOU."

They don't create the options. They were already there. And the first monster encounter, they say Froggit attacks you, as contrasted with every encounter afterwards.

"No, it's because they are actually the one in control of the file, they have more determination than we do. Determination to see why they have been brought back to life."

"My 'human SOUL'. My 'determination'. They were not mine, but YOURS."-Chara

They actually have basically no determination on their own.

"We are NOT Frisk, we see at the end of Pacifist that Frisk is their own character with their own name who's identity is seperate from our own."

..When? We learn that our name is Frisk in the epilogue, and we have Flowey speaking to Chara in his final speech. Never that we're not Frisk. What we DO learn is that we're not Chara.

"And much like Chara, depends on the run as we see in genocide Frisk give maniac looks at monsters, and it wasn't Chara we already know what it looks like when Chara takes over from the post-genocide pacifist end."

Yep, this is Frisk killing the monsters, not Chara. Chara only starts killing from Sans onwards, and at the post-genocide pacifist end.

"Player is their own entity. Just like Chara is their own entity."

We have no evidence of that, and all the evidence suggests that they are canonically Frisk, just as Player is canonically Link in the Legend of Zelda.

"(https://78.media.tumblr.com/3b86cca03677cc61456fb2eb64ac8dea/tumblr_inline_o7vawh6E6f1s2rk6q_500.png)"

This was clearly a joke, since Temmie also said that you would want to kill him because you're Chara, implying that Chara DOES want to kill everyone. ..Just before saying that Chara is chill. So, he contradicted himself.

"He was joking, he said that the ultimate canon was this weird nursery rhyme with pictures of his characters slapped onto them.  He was clearly joking."

He actually said he hasn't decided on that. Chances are, he ruled against it.

--

..I suppose you forgot about getting back to do the rest of it.