Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-30088034-20170108152544/@comment-30088034-20170111212451

To mabian : It's not clear whether Flowey would be able to perform a True Reset or not. Hell, it's not exactly clear who can even in the normal game, or why it happens (at least from a story-writing standpoint). Most likely the True Reset is simply a way to restart the game without all of the weird issues that would come with a normal Reset, including the fact that certain pieces of dialogue would be forever lost to the player, that the characters would have this strange reaction to remembering leaving the Underground, and so on. I'll have more on this below.

The best we can really come up with is that the True Reset is a very specific power that is available only at very specific points in time to very specific characters. Basically, either Chara or the player (or both), at the end of a "completion" of the game. Anything else is just going to be speculation heaped upon speculation, and speculation that ultimately doesn't matter.

As for the "how could Flowey kill everything," the answer would probably be rather obvious to you if you had played Genocide, but the short answer is: if you can save, try something, lose, and then just reload, you can bang your head against the wall as many times as you need until you finally prevail. Flowey doesn't need to be all-powerful. He just needs to be patient.

'''so it just makes it easier for the game to work? that's smart. because the game remembering things is cool, but it can screw up later runs (you know what happened lol). and i guess flowey could just take as many tries as he needs, just like the human. but wait, if he just reset, shouldn't the characters have at least SOME recognition of him?'''

BUT I THINK IT SAID "EVERY MONSTER SOUL COULDN'T EVEN EQUAL ONE HUMAN SOUL' OR WAS I JUST IMAGINING THAT OR SOMETHING? LOL You've misremembered the quote. The sign says:

"Humans are unbelievably strong. It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster... ...just to equal the power of a single human SOUL."

'''oopsie. but it's a "human and a monster soul" not "the power of a human and monster sou." they are different'''

BECAUSE THE HUMANS WOULD BE THE MOST DETERMINED, OBVIOUSLY. Presumably, but even if they weren't, if they don't exist at the same time, the question doesn't matter.

However, I'll provide a different possible way of explaining the same events, which shows how little information there is:

When each human fell down, their determination was outmatched by Flowey's. So only Flowey could save and reload. Flowey decided to toy with the children, though eventually he got bored with them and left them to whatever fates they met. But since the children could have gone through any number of saves and reloads, including meeting Toriel multiple times, Toriel would have that feeling of having met them before, even though the kids are not the ones manipulating the timeline. In turn, it also explains why the children died, as they were not the ones who were able to save, and so when Flowey got bored with them, there was nothing they could do to save themselves.

'''but you said earlier flowey and the humans didn't exist at the same time. so it doesn't matter. and if they existed at the same time, i still think the humans would be more determined than flowey so that flowey couldn't save.'''

WAIT FLOWEY COMMITED SUICIDE? I'VE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THAT. The chart's a bit hard to read, but you can see an arrow leading from that point back to when Flowey first gains sentience. Again, I really suggest trying to do a Genocide route up until you get to New Home, and if you refuse to do that, reading through Flowey's dialogue in New Home (which should be on his page). That should help to explain what seems to be confusing to you here.

ok

WHY ISN'T THAT SIMPLE? WHAT ARE THE OTHER FACTORS? For one, there would seem to be at the very least a threshold of determination that needs to be reached to control the timeline. Otherwise the power to control the timeline would presumably belong to Asgore or Toriel before Chara falls down. And we know they never had such a power, as one of the things that goes with that power is the ability to fully remember events across timelines. But neither Asgore nor Toriel have any such recollections.

'''maybe it could have been asriel? but before they even MADE asriel, i don't know.'''

Second, it is unclear how much control is actually given to the most determined being. You can only go back in time, and in such a way that a paradox can't be created (e.g. Flowey can't go back to before he existed in the first place). So having "control" is a slight misnomer.

'''well, even frisk can't go back to before he existed, so i think complete control is impossible. and i think the humans that fell before had some power but not as much as frisk, because frisk is special (for whatever reason) (and chara)'''

Third, it is not entirely clear how far the power extends. The power can't logically extend to the Surface, or else Flowey would not have control, since Frisk exists for all or much of that time. So it appears to be mostly restricted to working in the Underground (which raises a whole host of complications about how time flows relative to the two areas: is the Underground now hundreds of years behind the Surface due to all of Flowey's resets?). Although, of course, Chara is able to pull all of the characters back into the Underground through the True Reset. Which brings me to your last point...

'''wait, they do? man, it's probably because i haven't played genocide. i might.'''

also i just realized, whether you spare everyone or kill everyone (but one monster), alphys has the same reaction either way when you enter her lab. and when you kill everything, monsters evacuate? that doesn't make sense This is essentially the complication behind creating a world that reacts to the player's actions. You can spend the time trying to perfectly tailor the response for every single possible combination of events, but the more you try to cover, the longer it takes to create the world, meaning that you basically never finish. So there's a tradeoff: how much should be completed to get across the basic themes and ideas and to make sure the core story makes sense, while still making sure that the work gets done.

In other words, some sort of hole was going to exist no matter how much effort Toby put in. If he fixed that problem, another would pop up somewhere else, because players can play the game in a near-infinite number of different ways, which means tiny variations will create the same reaction. So Toby could have made a different reaction for killing all but one monster, and all but two, and all but three, etc., etc. But if he did, then we wouldn't have an Undertale to discuss in the first place.

'''im not saying that much, that would be too much work. and i know toby made an absolutely amazing game in such a short time. however, when you killed more than "X" amount of monsters, maybe alys still evactuates but not mettaton? and in between 0 and "X" monsters killed, maybe she isn't that excited about seeing you (and doesn't help guide you) or at least less? '''

So what does that all mean with respect to the story? Nothing. It's a tiny foible that has no real relevance. Think of it like encountering a bug, or a typo in a novel: you might be annoyed at encountering it in the first place, but you wouldn't regard it as relevant for understanding the plot of a game or book.