Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180624215719

"Which, again, doesn't explain why we cannot do so during the Omega Flowey fight. Please, read my responses whole before you start replying."

You do the same:I DO go over this later on. DT isn't consistent-It was below 6 during Omega Flowey, and above 6 during Asriel. I'll explain more when I get to where you specifically asked why it didn't spike up during the Omega Flowey fight, but for now, think of it like what happens with Undyne-Why does she come back as the Undying in a Genocide Run, but not in any other run? You'll soon see that these two issues are connected.

"If that was the case, again, we would be able to defeat Omega Flowey through other means than by calling for help constantly. The question is still there, why couldn't we access our save file during a battle with Omega Flowey, but could during Asriel's battle?"

That question right there is why I said DT must fluctuate:It's not just one value forever-Else we'd have a contradiction.

"Then why did it NOT fluctuate during the Omega Flowey fight? You can't just nitpick like this, saying it did there, but didn't here. Such theory sucks, it's just a dumb head canon."

Well, here we have it. The question I meant. So, have you thought about the case with Undyne yet? She either dies, or, through determination, refuses to die-She's back at full health, and she will strike you down! The trigger is which run you played, so the explanation as to what happened here MUST use that fact. If you've killed everyone, you've demonstrated how you're a threat to monsters, and humans too.. She even witnesses you strike at Monster Kid first-hand. All of this culiminates inside her, and she becomes determined.. DETERMINED TO STRIKE YOU DOWN!! NGAHH!! So, basically, our actions made us into her enemy, and she managed to muster enough determination to literally rise from the grave. Determination spikes, therefore, are a result of the situation one is placed within. (Remember, we're talking about the TRAIT "determination"-How "determined", you are. Besides, how else would you explain Undyne's case?)

Now, let's extrapolate this onto Omega Flowey and Asriel. In Omega Flowey's world, you're stuck fighting Flowey.. But, every time you die, Flowey just reloads. There's really no sense of urgency to win. Not only that, your SAVE is already deleted, it's not like you know that beating Flowey will return everything to normal. There really isn't much motive for Determination.

In Asriel Dreemurr's case, however, we're essentially Undyne the Undying. Firstly, Flowey captured all of our friends, and stole their SOULs. We're fighting for our friends, just as Undying is fighting for the fallen monsters. This determination would last to Asriel's true form. Then, the situation changes-Asriel now simply wants to reset everything to zero.. All he needs is to take that away from you. If you let this happen, everything you've worked for.. Gone, in an instant. Stay determined, Frisk!! In his second form, it's revealed that you can't move your body (you can move your SOUL just fine). You can't reach your SAVE. This pretty much makes it so you're determined to live:If you die, you can't reach your SAVE anymore-Asriel steals it from you. Your only method of LOADing is by . So, you die for real, and Asriel wins. This is essentially a bunch of things at once that gets your determination up.

""Refuse" happens, when your soul dies, but you can't go back, but you don't want to die either." Those kids COULD go back."

...Refusing gives you full health, and keeps your battle progress. Anyone who realizes this would know that it's better to refuse tha to reload when they die in battle. Why would they ONLY want to refuse when they can't reload? Re-fusing against Asgore over and over should guarantee a victory. (This allows us to conlude that Frisk's DT during Asriel's battle must be higher than Frisk's natural determination-Else we'd be using that ability elsewhere. Oh, and by the way, why don't we re-fuse during Omega Flowey's right on your take?)

"But eventually, they all gave their souls away. Why? Well maybe Asgore really is stronger than he looks."

Still. If you re-fuse long enough, you WILL succeed. Your HP is enestially infinite. So, add that to the stat table, and simulate the fight again. The human will win every time.

"And also, one more thing. I think the soul shatters only and only if it can go back. After all, why would the monsters try to destroy your soul, if that's what they want in the first place, and considering human souls persist after death, right?"

Perhaps it's some kind of choice. SOULs do persist after death, though probably not forever, since we don't see a bunch of SOULs when we see the Surface (when we logically should, since the majority of humans who lived are dead now.) I've theorized before that they eventually ascend somewhere else, and that they WANT to leave, this being why Asgore TRAPPED them in the containers. I've also theorized that it uses up some DT, but in a container, it just bounces right back into the SOUL, to be used again. Either way, it's only natural for a SOUL to be able to choose what it wants to do. But here's a little note:Papyrus purposefully chooses NOT to kill you-He wants to send you directly to Asgore instead. I wonder if it's because he doesn't want to shatter your SOUL..? (Though, I suppose an easy explanation is that he just doesn't have a SOUL container, not being a member of the Royal Guard. Not like we see him with one.) Not really sure why our SOUL chooses to shatter, when it can just LOAD by other means, though. Perhaps to prevent a SOUL absorption? Does this naturally happen every time a LOAD happens, and the "shattering" is just the SOUL splitting apart, only to reform at the stated LOAD point? Sans said that the reason why the surface doesn't appeal is that he'll just be "sent back" to before it happened, meaning that LOADing is not changing the timeline, but physically moving yourself, back in time, sending everyone with you. Maybe the shatter is a case of the SOUL doing that to itself?

"So that gives us a new look at the last two fights with Flowey/Asriel. Flowey wanted to play with us. He didn't care whether our soul persisted or not, after killing us, he would just reload."

True.

"Asriel though wanted nothing but to get rid of us, and then reset. So going back was out of the question, as if our soul shattered, he would do it. That implies he had the control over the power. Because why else would our soul refuse, instead of simply going back in time as per usual?"

Except we still CAN by closing the game. This practically confirms there is a DIFFERENT reason for the refusal. And that's because now we have enough determination to do it, and take that advantage I pointed out. As we leadn in Phase 2, we can't physically move our body to reach a SAVE file-We can only do so by closing the game:Therefore, naturally LOADing after dying is simply undoable. So, I suppose you're.. Half-right? I'll give credit:After death, yes, this is their only option. But NOT because they lack the power. It's because they can't move.

"And making our soul persist would be akin to giving up. That's what the other kids did. So the only other option was something that hasn't happened before, that is, a "refuse." Though the question is, why couldn't he simply reset right away? There are many possible explanations for that, but it's certainly not a DT flux within Frisk. If that was the case, they would be able to reset and Asriel wouldn't."

...That's exactly what happens. We can reset, and Asriel can't. We close the game, and reset. Asriel tries to kill you TO reset. This was my entire point. We CAN do that. Therefore, we have the power.

"Plus, the above, why didn't it fluctuate during the fight with Flowey?"

Answered above, when you asked it above, so.. Just mentally insert that answer here if you will.

"No, Asriel had the power, but we were somehow preventing him from resetting the timeline. Maybe the reset option requires special conditions, such as, killing the previous owner. Though, that wasn't the case when we first entered the underground, was it?"

Exactly:I used that as well.

"I think I've already said this once. Frisk gained the ability over Flowey, because their DT was higher."

Exactly. Hence why I said Asriel should follow the same pattern if he had more DT than us.

"Asriel's cumulative DT was higher than ours, but then again, each part of it was weaker than Frisk's soul. So maybe THIS is why he couldn't reset and had to kill us."

..Um, Omega Flowey had the same thing. The exact same thing. Yet he can do all of that just fine. Delete our SAVE, un-delete it (wait, what?), and just about anything we as player can do. (By the way, deleting a SAVE file is the same as resetting and saving that-And resetting is the same as deleting a file and loading the blank slate. So if you can do one, you can do the other.)

"He felt that the power wasn't registering his composite soul. That's why the transfer of the reset power didn't happen there."

..What about Omega Flowey?

"You're telling me humans can't do bullet patterns... because they aren't strong enough. And yet they summoned the barrier."

Um, no. I've said this once, I'll say it again, but this time more compact-They don't have the skills. Tell me, could you throw 14 arrows at the same time, hitting 14 separate targets? ..Yeah, I don't think so. And that kind of skill level is what bullet patterns require, because you're doing just that-Summoning 10-20 bullets, and firing them all in different directions. Only reason why monsters can do that is because magic is essentially a part of their nature. You could say that's their trait, even. That's what their SOUL seems to indicate, after all. Hence, it's as natural to them as controlling our body is natural to us-Their bodies are essentially made of magic. They're interconnected with it. Humans? They can really only use magic like it's a tool, and even then, you might need a wand for it (The image showing the mages shows the spell is coming from a wand). This isn't anything about strength, it's about skill, and level of control. Summoning a barrier is simple. A bullet pattern is complex. Sure, sure, humans could probably dish out fireball attacks (assuming they've trained a LOT on how to summon fireballs), maybe even the 10-20 fireballs you'd need during an encounter, but they can't elegantly make a bullet pattern out of it. Think of it like the humans in the Harry Potter setting, if you will.

TL;DR-It's not strength they lack, it's the skills and accuracy in magic that they lack.

"Just, I dunno, turn the bullets into an array, and then draw with that array like with a ribbon. That's what Flowey did with his bullets, I don't think he controlled each one individually."

..He'd have to. That's how telekenesis works. The bullets weren't even touching. But, let's just say we DID find a way to put several bullets together, combine them into one, long object (Oh, a new way to make Amalgamates..) and made it bendable like a ribbon, then used MORE magic to actually change the shape...

.*3 minutes until the pattern is ready. .*2 minutes until the pattern is ready. .*1 minute until the pattern is ready.

(no, I'm not skipping any steps here)...and then, to stop it from just changing back just by moving it or letting go (Oh, that's right, you have to not do either of those things when designing your pattern) you cast ANOTHER spell to make it UNbendable again (also how to make it a damaging bullet again), and then FINALLY you're done. So, let's see what happens! .*fires it up (not really though I'm no wizard) and..*

Wait, why isn't my pattern phasing like I intended? Oh, right.. I can't change its shale anymore, so I'm stuck with constant shapes that I can draw in one stroke, seeing how we have ONE object that can't be split. And, it can't have any sharp corners, it must be something we can naturally bend a ribbon into.. Alright, let's not lock ourselves out of that and try again.

...Oh, now it's changing shapes wildly.. Oh, that's right, that's why I made it unbendable at the start, to stop that.. Hmm.. Catch-22.. Well, maybe I can take a third option.. Maybe calculate the wind force, and force of my movement, and counteract the wild movements? ..Well, that would work, except no human can actually do such a thing with such precision.

Looks like we're stuck with the simple, uncreative stuff. (Though, maybe you have a more creative way of doing this?)

"I'm sure they don't build stuff out of their own bodies"

No, but they use it to pick the material up and place it in the right positions, and use all the tools they have! Well, except for Nasptablook.

"Just... prove it, or give a strong evidence, and then such questions become relevant and worthy of a conversation."

The question itself is something I have proven. The Mages exist and cast the Barrier, so humans must have had magic at one point. Yet, they can't represent themselves with it either. Then I gave a possible resolution to this supposed contradiction. If it's the only solution, it MUST be correct. (Or we can just say the monster writing the passage was wrong..) You CAN counter with another possible solution, though, assuming one exists. If it doesn't, then that essentially IS my proof. If on a Sudoku board, the ONLY possibility left for the square is a 4, the square is a 4. Same thing here. Remember, though, it can't contradict any evidence within the game! (You can also look for evidence to contradict my solution, obviously. As long as said evidence actually exists within the game-You can also show how it just doesn't work, like you tried to above.)

"No, but as I stated somewhere above, they could have been an exception. Maybe they absorbed the souls of boss monsters, giving themselves magic."

"But this has never happened. And now, it never will"-Waterfall Plaque (right after it says it's possible)

"Maybe they've had a rare genetic mutation tha allowed them to utilize magic."

Why wasn't this trait passed down via evolution/natural selection? (If the mutation was just recent, more than seven humans ("seven of their strongest magicians" implies there's more than seven) getting the same mutation independently doesn't make sense, it had to have been around longer. Which brings us back to the question-Why wasn't this trait passed down further?)

"Maybe humans really could use magic back then, but lost the ability over the years for whatever reason (maybe for the absence of monsters?)."

How would THAT result in their loss of magic? How would they gain magic from there being monsters nearby in the first place?

"See, there's a ton of ways we can rationalize their existence in the context of the in-game present day."

But do they logically work without contradicting evidence from the game?

"There may be no such thing as a "dominant trait." There might be only one trait per a soul. Keep that in mind. It's easy to get lost amidst all these fandom head canons."

Which reduces humans to literally 7 groups. It's the exact same thing you critized my trait theory for implying. The exact strawman you busted down. If one trait per SOUL exists, then there really ARE only seven kinds of humans. Chara is not Frisk. Paci!Frisk has kindness. But that's not their main trait. Also, remember, monsters are made of magic. It would make sense that they'd be abundant in magic. And they DO have traits. They have their own personalities, and their own fighting styles (But if you say traits are fighting styles, then monsters have no fighting style, because their only trait is magic. But they clearly do. So even if you're right about the fighting style theory, the "one trait, not dominance" theory is STILL busted. Unless we say magic doesn't count at all, in which case what fighting style does Sans have? Perservearance, justice, or patience?, Also, side note:the yellow SOUL mode has all the benefits of the red mode, plus something extra. So.. Yellow mode can use red mode tactics.)

"And could a monster? And I'm guessing the answer is yes. Ever tried juggling?"

If they weren't naturally attuned to magic, and magic wasn't literally what they're made of, the answer would be no. But using magic is as natural to them as, say, moving our hands is to us. Also, juggling is just moving your hands in the same way, so that all the balls follow a cycle.. Don't let them bump into each other, though. But, you can keep a pattern going, and then just do the same thing for each ball-You don't have to, say, fire them all off in many directions.

"I don't think magic must necessarily be "hold to exist" for humans. The barrier is a proof that they could cast spells that outlasted them. So why not small spells that don't require their constant attention for that matter?"

Creating the bullets and having them stay as bullets is one thing. Firing them off in the same direction, and making them continue to move in that same direction is similar. But having them change their direction, and firing the bullets all in different directions, but at the same time all the same? Completely different. Here it is condensed:It's not "hold to exist", it's "hold to CHANGE".