Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20160613103837/@comment-26006155-20160617154428

Mabian wrote: BlackfootFerret wrote: BFF - Essence is different from a SOUL, we're still not even sure SOUL means what we think it means, if it's an acronym, and it seems to be since it's often in all caps, it could mean something very different. Anyways, I believe Asriel's monster soul dissapates on death (otherwise why would Gerson need to say he's going to get it back), so Flowey only has Chara's during his time as a flower. And this assumption that Chara's is still present is based on the notion that since humans souls persist in general, they continue to persist even after being absorbed by a monster, which has no basis. Either A) the human soul doesn't properly fuse with the monster like the monster soul does; in this case, the human soul floats independently like it would when a human dies, allowing it to be captured like the other human souls, in which case the soul is either caught and contained by Asgore, or dissipates of its own accord; or B) the human soul does fuse with the monster; in this case, Chara's soul needs to be imparted into Flowey somehow, and the only way it can work is through monster essence. But if the human soul can be imparted through monster essence, then so should the monster soul, meaning that we return to the problem of why Flowey is unable to feel compassion if he still has his own soul.

As a digression, soul and SOUL are both used consistently and often to refer to both monsters and humans, with no real differentiation. There is likely no acronym for SOUL as there is for LOVE and EXP.

BFF - Yes, Flowey, who is easily able to experience all other emotions, decries his lack of ability to feel love. If becoming a flower blanks his emotions, it should blank ALL of his emotions, not just one specificially. As far as I know the only explicit dialog about Flowey being soulness comes from himself. How do you explain the seventh soul Frisk finds inside Asriel? Where does it say that becoming a flower blanks all of Flowey's emotions? And what "seventh soul" are you referring to?

BFF - Perhaps Toby didn't show a human soul coming out of Flowey when he gets cut to pieces because it would ruin the mystery? When Frisk stabs Flowey in a neutral ending, it just turns back into a normal flower without splitting apart. Perhaps Chara repeatedly chopping Flowey in the genocide ending destroy the soul before it can emerge? Ruin what mystery? There is only a mystery on the presumption that Chara's soul is still present in Flowey. Why does it need to be "preserved?" There are still a host of questions that arise about how Chara is able to influence Frisk on the Genocide Route if Chara's soul is inside Flowey, or how Chara's soul survives and why Asriel's soul doesn't, and so on and so on. No mystery is being ruined by making something this important more clear.

BFF - Again, essense is a different thing. Even those who believe Flowey is soulless accept that Asriel essense is in him after it scattered over the First Flower. If Asriel still had his own soul inside him he'd be able to feel love, so I don't think it made the transition. Perhaps a person can't feel their own soul? Flowey assumes he's soulless because he can't feel love, so it's a bit of a cycle. Except that Flowey as acknowledges that he is able to feel things he could not before when he absorbs the human souls in the Neutral route. As Isthereaplace noted above, Flowey does not suddenly change his demeanor upon absorbing the human souls, despite the fact that they should be capable of feeling compassion in contrast to Chara's, and one of them is even meant to represent kindness. If Flowey cannot feel compassion specifically because he has Chara's soul originally, then the process of absorbing the other six souls should allow him to feel the specific emotion he is lacking.

It also runs into a logical problem. Flowey specifically needs seven souls in order to return himself to his original form as Asriel. Which is why he absorbs the monster souls as well in the True Pacifist route. If Flowey already has a human soul when he absorbs the other six, then he has the power necessary to break the barrier. He specifically says he only has six souls when he becomes Photoshop Flowey, and that he needs one more before he can go out and destroy the world. But if he has Chara's soul, then he has seven, and he doesn't need to take Frisk's (he still can, but it isn't needed). And he can't simply not recognize that he doesn't have a soul already, because he remarks on how he has been empty and feels different having absorbed the six souls, while if he already has a soul inside of him, he should feel no different (at most, he should only feel more powerful).

Could you list this explicit evidence please? So far we only have Flowey's word that he's soulless, which he bases on the face that he feels empty inside, because he can't feel love, not knowing he can't feel love because he's got Chara's loveless soul inside him. There's Flowey's statements, not only acknowledging that he is lacking something in general, but that he specifically feels differently after he has absorbed a soul. There's the specific line from Alphys's lab about something which has no soul gaining the will to live (your argument about Alphys injecting determination into the other flowers doesn't work here, as what sets Flowey apart is the existence of the essence, which as you have also agreed is not the same thing as a soul). There's the line from Asriel about how he was soulless as a flower. There are also the various logical problems that I've laid out above. Meanwhile, there is no indication of Chara's soul still being present in Flowey, and you have not provided evidence, either explicit or implicit, for why we should even entertain the notion in the first place in contrast to the "standard interpretation."

I'm just saying there's a reason Toby puts SOUL in all caps, I imagine he's going to pull the rug out from under us at some point and say it means Super Obvious Ultimate Lemonadestand at some point. There's clearly more to an Undertale character than just their SOUL.

The Seveth Soul I'm referring to is in the Asriel, Absolute God of Hyperdeath fight. After you save your six friends, Frisk senses another presense within Asriel, and calls a name out to it. Asriel is immediatly surprised, and affected by it "What did you DO?" it's clearly not something he expects.

If a red heart suddenly pops out of Flowey when you killed him, it would clear the mystery right up, so Toby doesn't make it obvious that Flowey has a human soul in him. So Toby hid that and left more subtle clues, like Flowey saying he and Chara were always inseperable even after all these years.

Omega Flowey only absorbed the six human souls Asgore captured right before our battle with him, and they prove later on they have the capacity to rebel even from inside him when he's damaged enough, and they're angry enough to rebel. Flowey would have had Chara's soul inside him for a very long time though, and his connection to it would be a lot stronger than the others. Asriel gets some feeling from the other souls inside him, but only really starts to feel compassion again himself when Frisk starts to save the 7th soul, which clearly belongs to him in some fashion.