Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-31536324-20190201210022

"Yes it does, stop being like Tsskyx and disregarding proof just because it doesn't fit your view."

So i disregard proof because you say i do?? Fine:Alphys quite clearly says that she CALLED this substance dt, if she was talking about firness of purpose in general then she wouldn't name it at all as it already has a name. She called it dt BECAUSE THE WILL TO KEEP LIVING IS SIMILAR TO TUE WILL TO ACHIEVE A GOAL, in the context of this substance:the strong will to persist"

Entry 5: I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination."

Persist after death (what wesee the Six Human SOULS do), will to keep living (directly ties to SAVE and REFUSE), and resolve to change fate (resolution).

Persisting after death is not averting death, nor defying it, YOU'LL STILL BE DEAD.

"Because they're weren't as determined as they were in the Asriel fight at that point"

I know. But if dt was really their trait wouldnt they be as much determined as during Asriels fight during omega floweys fight?

Not really, no. You're assuming that they automatically have all the power of Pacifist Frisk from the get go, and can do everything they can then willy nilly. Which is clearly not the case given that they didn't have those capabilities in the Omega Flowey fight, but did in the Asriel fight. What you're insituating is that Frisk is THAT determined ALL THE TIME, every second of the day, when it's rather clear that the situation itself was what made them so determined.

Compare the Omega Flowey fight to the Asriel fight.

Omega Flowey: Flowey steals back SAVE, your SAVE File is gone you are now his toy, and the situation is hopeless BECAUSE he's the one in control and not you. You have no friends to SAVE, nothing to make you feel determined, and only a being who has made it EXTREMELY clear that he intends to torture and kill you for his own newfound amusement. REFUSE is not only pointless here, but unobtainable.

Asriel: He's absorbed the SHS and nearly all Monster SOULS, gaining the DT and power of 7 SOULS PLUS the DT he was originally injected with that brought him back. He is now a god, but does not retain control of the timeline, Frisk does. He makes his intent to reset everything clear, and his intent to kill you to regain SAVE clear as well. You're determined to save your friends and the world, to the point where you even outright DEFY DEATH REPEATEDLY, but only so long as your Determination last at that level. You can't SAVE, but you can SAVE everyone.

Get the point?

"They want to save their friends and the world, that's their purpose, and they're unflinching in accomplishing it. The whole scenario was nothing but then achieving that, nothing about wanting to live."

I never said that wasn't the case"

I know I was just disproving your statement about it being ABOUT Frisk wanting to live.

"Repeatedly doing kind things is not the same thing as STAYING kind yourself. Repeating that which makes you yourself is not the same as STAYING that way yourself. Repeatedly doing brave things is not the same as STAYING brave yourself".

How its related with anything at all?"

Whem you're perseverant, your just doing and repeating for the sake of what you're doing. When your determined, you're doing because of the intent of what you're doing.

Determination is replaying a hard level in a gane to achieve the best rank, score, and unlockables. Perseverance is replaying that same level over and iver again because you keep dying at various parts, learning from those deaths, and wanting to just finish it and move on.

"Perseverance is the ACTION of repeatedly doing the same thing over and over until you finish.

Determination (both in the game and real life) is the WILL to keep going and do so over and over to achieve a goal or purpose."

Perseverance is the ACTION of keep doing because of strong "firmess of purpose". You cant have Perseverance trait if you have no strong "firness of purpose"

Determination is replaying a hard level in a gane to achieve the best rank, score, and unlockables. Perseverance is replaying that same level over and over again because you keep dying at various parts, learning from those deaths, and wanting to just finish it and move on.

And yes you can, I refer you back to my scientist and analyst analogy. A scientist does experiments to see the results, write them down, and see what else can be attained from the process and both any new results that might crop up. An analyst looks at something, does it, takes notes on their faults, and does it again with the new knowledge in mind; making note of any new mistakes and repeating. You don't work toward a result, you repeat to get new results and learn.

Determination works toward a result, pushes you to a goal, urges you to achieve and attain your desired outcome. Yes you repeat, but you're not doing so to learn, you're doung so to keep trying to do and get what you want.

"You come across an enemy that wants to kill you, you repeatedly (Perseverance) compliment and be nice to them (Kindness), never changing your tactic even when your near death (Determination). They're touched, no longer want to fight, and you spare them."

Nothing implies that the fallen kids acted like that"

Given that they ran into Toriel, who would have no doubt taught them about ACTING and SPARING, I find this assumption hard to swallow for ALL of them. Bravery, (likely) Justice, Patience, and Integrity most likely killed; but Kindness, (likely) Justice, and Perseverance most likely didn't.

Also, that was in response to your inquiry about the other traits fitting into DT.

"Considering that even in Deltarune we can't use it on the surface, I think it's a safe bet that we can't at this point."

Dark world is whole different world from the lighter world. Its magical and all plus is imagined by Kris."

I'm really beginning to hate MatPat for instilling this stupid theory into people's heads.

"But save load power do work on the surface :when Flowey and Frisk cross the barrier in the neutral end, Frisk can still reload. And no matter how many recept you made, the surface events wouldn't change in the true end, that means recepts affect the surface"

Frisk needed a Monster SOUL to get through the barrier, something that DOESN'T HAPPEN in the first run. So, no, they didn't cross the Barrier. At least then. In the other Neutral Routes, yes, they had to.

But here's the thing: the Monsters don't know about the Omega Flowey fight. To them, all that happened was that Frisk killed Asgore, took his SOUL, and the Human SOULS disappeared. Sans himself is even aware of things like tinelines and SAVES, and he never once said anything implying that Frisk crossed the Barrier in the 1st Run. Flowey didn't even bring them to the Surface, he just brought them to a void where the SAVE Files existed. Even then Frisk was dropped down to one of the two rooms with purple doors in the Underground, so both of them were STILL down there at the end of the first run.

Every other time Flowey would be still trapped Underground with the others, he never leaves. So even if it DOES affect the Surface, neither Frisk nor Chara are the ones actually doing it, thr Player/Anomaly is. This is why I say that Red SOULS are vessels for possession by other entities, and even then either unwilling or unknowing possession.

Kris is clearly aware (as shown by Deltarune's ending and the SAVE Files; Kris DOES have their own after all).

Frisk however is likely not and thinks that everything they do is of their own power (as shown by their reveal of autonomy in the Pacifist ending). True Reset even wipes EVERYONES memories, even Flowey's. So the idea that Frisk' memories would be included wouldn't be that far fetched, and give, say, Genocide a more reasonable explanation for happening.

Both have the power, but something like the Player/Anomaly can use it if they possess them.

Chara has no SOUL or DT of their own, both are GONE; everything they have now is a result of Frisk DT and SOUL. They directly say so IN THE GENOCIDE ENDING. They say that what ressurected them, brought them back, and is allowing them to destroy the world is Frisk DT AND SOUL. There is literally nothing that implies thatvthey have their own of either, and no the Asgore quotes don't count, they themselves don't give Frisk DT the reason BEHIND THEM does. Hearing someone encourage another to keep at it, continue even in a tough time, would definitely push someone to do the same. It's, again, no different from what Frisk gets DT from before.

Flowey has no DT on his own, he needed to be injected as stated here: "ENTRY NUMBER 8: I've chosen a candidate. I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it... In the center of his garden, there's something special. The first golden flower, that grew before all the others. The flower from the outside world. It appeared just before the queen left. I wonder... What happens when something without a SOUL gains the will to live?"

That DT is all he has, unless he absorbs other SOULS and gains more, that's it.

"Everything that they've done is toward achieveing their goal of leaving the Underground/Sparing Everyone/Killing Everyone. Everything Frisk does is a result of and association with their Determination, much like how the other kids are implied to have done things and died by doing what's a result of their trait. (Running headlong into danger, doing only what you think is right, being kind, waiting, sticking to your own style, and repeating.)"

All fallen humans wanted to come back and any human would want to leave the world filled of monsters that wants their death."

No duh, Sherlock. They have DT, everyone does, like how everone has Bravery, Justice, etc. Read it again.

"No, it's also associated with changing fate. The Monsters themselves even disprove this, by everything they do leading back to their goal of leaving the Underground and breaking the Barrier."

In the context of Alphys's entry, the fate is death as dt can't have so different functions."

No, it's not. If it were then one of the two wouldn't be mentioned, not both, both are separate things.

Fate is what's to happen, events that are going to happen or happening.

"Death is not fate! Fate is fate!"

Death is also a fate, everyone gonna die. Plus here what Alphys wanted to say:when humans dies, they refuse to die, so they want to change the fate that's reserved for them(death), that's why she put the "will to keep living"and "the resolve to change the fate"together."

No, that's redundancy, idiocy, and you putting words into another's mouth.

"DETERMINATION IS NOT JUST THE WILL TO KEEP LIVING!"

Yeah, this is also the will to defy death,to overcome it. Basically the same thing as the "will to keep living"

And change fate. Living longer is not changung fate, you're going to die in the end. Changing fate is winning in a battle your opponent is destined to win. Changing fate is preventing a disaster to create a better outcome. Changing fate is going against what's laid out for you.

"These little things don't make Frisk want to live more, they make them MORE DETERMINED, as in more determined to achieve their goal, more firm in their purpose."

Dt is the "will to keep living", so those stuff make frisk to want to live"

DT is the will to live, resolve to change fate, and ability to persist AFTER death (the SHS are clealr shown doing just that).

Stop simplifying it to one thing, and no I'm not "complicating" it, Im using exactly what the game says it is which is the above. I'm not giving it multiple functions, TOBY HIMSELF AND THE GANE ITSELF GAVE IT MULTIPLE FUNCTIONS.

"Flowey came to life BECAUSE HE WAS INJECTED WITH DETERMINATION!"

How it change at all about his ability to have dt when he came back?"

Nothing "changes", it's just fact. The only DT he has it what he was injected with, that's it!

"Keep in mind that dt is just a feeling (even so its "physical "), every little being can have it. Plus Flowey literally says that "he wanted to live because he feared to die", that means that he HAS his own dt once he came back to life"

No, that's the DT HE WAS INJECTED WITH, THE SAME DT THAT BROUGHT HIM BACK IN THE FIRST PLACE!

"THEY DON'T, ALL THEY HAVE IS WHAT THEY WERE INJECTED WITH!"

What does assume that Chara has no dt omce they are alive because they needed other one's dt to come back to life??"

They literally say that the DT and SOUL they have is not theirs. That alone is proof.

"Once again, just because they needed other person's dt to come back, doesnt mean that they can't have their own. Nothing in the game implies that souless people can't have their own dt.Flowey also confirmed that they can"

No, he doesn't, he only has what he was injected with. He can di what he does BECAUSE OF THAT SAME DT!

"Excelt they aren't alive. They're a bodyless spirit latching onto the SOUL of a child."

They say themself that they are alive, that they came to "life". They also have conscience. Even souls of death people can have dt, so why Chara couldn't?"

Because Chara has no SOUL, and they're only here because of Frisk DT. The SHS still exist, Flowey exist, Chara didn't even have a SOUL and were rendered nonexistent until Frisk fell onto their grave and their SOUL resonated with Chara's decayed remains.

Even then, EVERYTHING - even Genocide - is all because of Frisk DT. Chara OUTRUGHT SAYS THIS.

"Excdpt they're not alive."

Except they are pretty much alive and reincarnated."

Except only at the end of Genocide, which is explicitly stated to be because of Frisk SOUL and DT, with everything after being done due to Chara using both. Never once is anything implying that Chara theirself is doing this with their own power. They needed Frisk to get 20 LV to become physical, they needed Frisk SOUL to get control of the timeline, and they needed the Player/Anomaly to willingly agree to restore the world to corrupt the endings.

"That doesn't mean Chara is the one doing it, Frisk is the one with the power, not Chara."

Not only the save points are under Chars name, not only the recept power is also is, not only Chara can make a true reception as during the genocide ending, but they are implied to be the one who keep Frisk alive since Frisk come back to their save point right after hearing Asgore teeling CHARA to stay determined."

SAVE is under Frisk control, not Chara's.

That's because they took Frisk SOUL, the thing that has the power to manipulate the timeline. So no, Chara didn't have SAVE.

Again, Chara has no DT or SOUL of their own, they can't do shit until Frisk starts nearing 20 LV. Frisk is the one doing everything, not Chara.

"The point is still gotten across, and it's still no stranger than everything else. My point stands."

Listen,Asgore NEVER tell Frisk to stay determined but he tell Chara to stay determined.So,Chara is the one who reload when Frisk dies thanks to their own dt"

Correlation =/= Causation.

"As a hint to Chara and Frisk connection, and another means for Frisk to be determined."

"1.Theres so many other hints of Frisk and Charas connection"

Name five.

"2.Frisk can't be determined because of this message as this message isnt even addressed to them"

That literally means nothing. Frisk hears the message, senses ththe meaning and intention, and feels empowered by the that intention even if it's not directed at them. Again, no different then literally everything else that gives them DT.

"3.the message is specifically about being determined, those aren't random memories to just implies the connection Frisk has with Chara:

They're both.

"And literally the game in its entirety."

Exept they can stop if we the player decide to stop"

Except Flowey himself says to let everyone be happy and let Frisk live their life after Pacifist is done. Literally spelling out that the characters and world are their own, have their own lives, and exist independently from the Player/Anomaly.

"The SAVE Points are ckearly a SHOWING of Determination, not DT "

Just a showing or not, its represented in yellow, the rest doesn't matter. The save points are yellow,which means that dt is yellow"

The rest does matter, DT is not yellow.

"And what better trait than Determination?"

I don't care"

You wouldn't be on MY thread if you didn't.

"He outright said that they hated humanity, clearly they went doen for reasons that are not suicidal."

What's that again?? You want to say that they climbed the mountain every one dissapears to eradicate the humanity?"

They hated people, they wanted to get away from them, so they went to the one place they knew no one would go to. Simple as that.

"Wtf??"

What I think of a majority of your responses.

"Not only that but Asriels outloud says that he knows the reason why Chara climbed the mountain, if they wanted to eradicate the humans, they would never told it to Asriel."

I never once said anything about them wanting to eradicate humanity. Stop putting words into my mouth.

"And you completely denying the fact that Flowey says that they wanted to "erase themself from existence ", not just die to fuse with him and free the monsters."

Just because Chara hated humanity doesn't mean that they climbed the mountain to destroy it. They clined it to get away from it.

"Plus, their plan WASNT to eradicate humanity. After all, they themself says that their plan was common with Asriel, calling it "our plan"instead of solely "my plan". The only plan they told to Asriel is to free the monsters.As this plan was common, then they had no ulteriour motives.

And they would fail to eradicat the humanity as they would share control over Asriels body with 6 other souls. So Its unlikely that they ever thought of it."

My response: "Frisk...You really ARE different from .In fact, though you have similar, uh, fashion choices...I don't know why I ever acted as if you were the same person.Maybe...The truth is... wasn't really the greatest person.While, Frisk...You're the type of friend I wish I always had.So maybe I was kind of projecting a little bit.Let's be honest.I did some weird stuff as a flower.There's one last thing I feel like I should tell you.Frisk, when  and I combined our SOULs together...The control over our body was actually split between us.They were the one that picked up their own empty body.And then, when we got to the village...They were the one that wanted to...... to use our full power.I was the one that resisted.And then, because of me, we...Well, that's why I ended up a flower.Frisk...This whole time, I've blamed myself for that decision.That's why I adopted that horrible view of the world."Kill or be killed."But now...After meeting you...Frisk, I don't regret that decision anymore.I did the right thing.If I killed those humans...We would have had to wage war against all of humanity."

"2 - Determination isn't just SOLELY the will to keep living. STOP SIMPLIFYING IT."

Its actually you who complicate it, ading meanings that aren't even in the game."

Determination in game is described as the will to keep living, resolve to change fate, and ability to persist after death. I do nothing to DT other than give and use it in the exact ways, with the exact meanings, it's given.

You're the one simplifying it.

"3 - Nothing is ever implied about Chara "having huge dt" after they die. In Genocide, they literally say that they woke up AT THE FLOWER PATCH confused about what happened, and even say THAT THE SOUL AND DT ARE NOT THEIRS. THEY HAVE NO DETERMINATION."

They says that they wake up thanks to Frisks soul and dt, not that they haven't dt alone.They likely dont want to die again before fulfilling their failed plan. Flowey even tell Chara "to take a deep breath "in the pacifist end as monsters are free, implying that Chara wants to free them during the whole game"

They can't have DT alone, BECAUSE THEY'RE CONNECTED TO THE INE WITH THTHE DT THAT BROUGHT THEM BACK, THEY SHARE FRISK DT!

"The only trait red soul is implied to be is a complete neutral one that latter can turn into another."

No, it's not. Stop injecting fanon into canon.

"And that by the only stuff that indicates which trait is associated with each trait, so the ball game. Theres no other way to know which trait is associated with each soul color, so its extremely likely that this is only way we can figure out the red soul's trait."

Ball Game, and implications given throughout the game, which all point to Determination.