Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180823214734

"Asgore himself admitted the declaration of war was just a fit of rage:He likely didn't mean it."

Then he would have no problem calling it off.

"Me too. He actually does kill himself when you spare him..."

I'd say hope if I were me. Actually, I am. Hope.

"Which Asgore debunks."

So according to you, the mere fact that monsters don't display these emotions all the times disproves that line? Are you sure Toby was being this literal? Stating that line, and then immediately breaking it with monsters like Asgore, Sans, or Burgerpants?

"He WANTED that last SOUL to win, and monsters to remain forever trapped underground."

He wanted to be rid of the responsibility, yes, but actively trying to sink the hopes of all monsters is the exact opposite of what he's been trying to do this entire time, so no. He no longer cares about the possibility of human retaliation, he doesn't care about anything like that in fact. He just doesn't want his people to be unhappy because of his decisions, so he has to, but would gladly accept any means of unburdening himself from this. Hope no longer ties to him, he didn't "lose" it, he lost the motive that would require him to be hopeful.

So we cannot say he lost hope, when really, he simply lost motivation, as his anger subsided.

"Monsters being trapped underground is happier than every human being obliberated in a second war between humans and monsters. Wouldn't you agree there?"

If I recall correctly, Toby once mentioned somewhere that the relations with the humans were tots fine. Though I cannot find the source, you'll have to believe me. But even not considering that, aren't you an optimist? Once again, I don't think what you're suggesting would really fit with what Toby had in mind.

"Evidence suggests that you can't SAVE or LOAD on the Surface, so Frisk can in fact fail now."

What evidence?

"Either to give your SOUL to Asgore"

Whimsuns... in the ruins...

"So why'd you use that as evidence that monsters don't want to fight?"

I didn't.

"Also, as I said in the same post, Toriel and Mettaton can also see your HP in battle."

Another possibility is that the other monsters simply don't bother checking your HP bar, because they don't expect their attacks to actually deal any damage... perhaps.

"The last monster that we can encounter can change species:It's not the same monster. The monster count is a limit to the number of monsters that will approach you-Once you've met the kill count, the monsters are likely now afraid to approach you."

Good thinking.

"Still means this isn't the core principal that defines the game, if it has exceptions."

I'm rather talking about my own morals right now. From my point of view, if there's no one to remember it, it didn't happen.

"A is Neutral, B is Pacifist, C is Genocide. Neutral, Pacifist, Genocide. The path across the three routes you were meant to take."

And your grand point is? That people attempt genocide because they are subconsciously aware of this "C" constant or whatever?

"The intro makes more sense as a lore."

And is then updated with the information that there were 7 wizards. We saw only one in the intro. Which would make the plaques the lore, since they're at the end of the information update chain. Even if it was written by a monster. For there is nothing to indicate that THAT particular monster was lying. We know nothing of them. Why presume their notes were false? I mean, why else would Toby add update info into the game, if not to update our knowledge of the lore as we progress?

"Literally all you have to do to see that it's false is see that Asgore didn't have hope, which was implied several different times."

Even if I believed that, it would only invalidate that one single Snowdin book, nothing else whatsoever.

"The Underground was even devoid of hope after the death of Chara. Which, if the books were correct, should mean that every monster's SOULs stopped functioning."

Well maybe you're just being overly literal once again.

"The fact that they're books made by an author, in a library, and that any race would have bias towards themselves."

I never figured that when playing any other game. In fact, no other game, including Undertale, made me ever question in-canon lore, over out-canon premises about the game (even if those promises themselves later turn out to be in-canon too, e.g. the intro actually being someone's memory).

I must strongly disagree with you on this. There is no bias at play here. This goes in accordance to the very usual gaming tropes.

"Literally MADE of love, hope, and compassion?"

If Toby claims that a soul, something deeply spiritual and religious, is actually a glowing pixelated heart-shaped magical voodoo object you move around in a box and control the world that has meanwhile turned black and white and partitioned into turns using glowing buttons that are also physical, and if everything concerning simultaneity and smoothness of our world we are accustomed to turns into something even weirder than the already absolutely bizzarre concept of the quantum world within this game, I am willing to believe anything.

I actually find it harmless. My interpretation of this is, that they don't need to be constantly projecting it, but they can certainly gain / regain it easily. As in, they have this aspect that is central to their existence, meaning they cannot exist without it, and yet they can wholly suppress it. It still exists, they still have it, but aren't showing it. The only way to tell the difference between them and perhaps a depressed human in such case is how quickly they can regain it once again after their burden is lifted away.

Minus of course the difficulty of fully suppressing it to begin with: see Papyrus for further reference.

"They were placed right next to other books that imply they were written by school students."

Do not imply.