Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180705201145

"... because it is a trait, as has been proven by the game. Yes, everyone has some amount of bravery in them, but only metaphorically, it's not literally a magical trait."

So, is it a trait it not?

"It's not needed to be. Besides, we get back to the 7/N problem. What if someone's dominant trait is something outside this 7-trait system? Say, a sense of order? If justice can be a trait, then order can be too."

As I deduced, order fits under justice. That's the explanation of putting an end to mayhem with surefire accuracy.

"Such person would always want everything to be perfect and aesthetically pleasing. And saying that this is just a form of integrity is the same as saying that perseverance is just a form of determination, so think about it hard. IS this system really tied to these psychological traits in a 1-to-1 correspondence? I don't think so, it makes no sense per any irl psychological trait study. A function with an unmeasurably high input N and an output of 7 cannot be based on a 1-to-1 correspondence."

It's not quite a 1-1 coorespondence. The high input is all the combinations of the traits we have. None of the traits can be zero. Then, the highest one is the one chosen. Sure, we have plenty of combinations, like (42,96,25,86,35,12,34) and (23,87,32,43,76,76,09), but in both of these, bravery, the second trait, is chosen. Think of it like a point on a 7-dimensional grid being turned into one of seven categories, depending on in which direction it traveled the furthest out from zero.

"So... all of this implies the names of the traits are not meant to be taken literally, because they are not defined literally. Patience may as well be knowledge, bravery emotions, integrity wisdom as well as originality, perseverance an unexplainable motivating force, green social skills and understanding, yellow accuracy, ego and goal seeking, and red some root stability (it can literally be anything). And these are the chakra definitions. This is how I managed to merge the two concepts."

Red need not be root stability. It's supposed to combine the other six.

"Another thing you need to open yourself to: the fact that purple is more than just about taking notes. Seriously, that would be the lamest trait of them all if that was the case. And it's not about learning per se. It's about persevering. So you take as many notes as you need to escape a sticky situation, no more, no less."

Didn't you just say the names aren't meant to be taken literally? Though, I suppose you meant closer to my take, where both the in-game description AND the literal meaning are used. And it is learning. That's what best fits the description.

"Orange is emotions, hence bravery. And I meant positive emotions. All the chakras speak of positive aspects of their definitions. A brave person is self-confident. That's what these "emotions" are referring to. Not crying and running away in fear."

Would it not then also fit in with kindness, compassion?

"Red is NOT your connection to earthly energy or whatever. That's bs science."

..The chakra system in GENERAL isn't supported by science. Those that say science DOES support it are using the same level of "science" as those "Quantum Healing" books.

"At the start of a cycle, one finds their root, stabilizes themselves, and then starts expressing themselves (orange). Then yellow, then green, etc. -"

Yes, you start with red. The flag says that red happens by using all the other traits, which would put it at the end of the cycle, not the beginning. That's why there is no match.

"Justice is also karma. That's how the Vaapad form works, you turn the evil against itself. That's justice, that's karma. But in a way, being accurate also represents shooting for your goal, reaching for it, reaching for justice. Yellow is very expressive, but more specific than orange. It's not about overcomming struggles, as much as about seeking your goal, your target."

I see.

"The difference between orange and purple, is that with purple, you at LEAST take some mental notes and don't approach a situation head on. Purple contains the sum of the previous steps, which are red, orange, yellow, green, cyan and blue respectively."

Makes sense when its the end of the cycle. Yet, Undertale puts red as the one combining the others together. So, to say the traits were based off these chakras doesn't fit anymore.

"Oh and purple has nothing to do with religion."

You said it had to do with divinity. Divinity is explicitly religious. Seeing how Hinduism is what came up with the idea of chakras, it makes sense as well.

"It's about spirituality and finding motivation in literally nothing physical at all. However, is that not what motivates those islamic extremists we keep hearing about all the time?"

Yes, it is what motivates them...

"And the difference between purple and CYAN, is that cyan is about observing."

...It's about waiting.

"Observing is learning. And then putting that knowledge to use. This is unlike purple, which is solely oriented on persevering."

AND taking notes.

"If taking notes is what it takes to persevere through Muffet's battle, then so be it. I mean, those spiders were literally showing you the contents of the next round. That's why I said a long time ago, that the ball game rather foreshadowed this."

The ball game was invented by monsters that had no divine knolwedge. They would have no reason to put in taking notes, unless that was a part of the trait they were trying to demonstrate.

"They only do if you take them literally. As I said, it's all about loose connections."

Loose connections are one of the worst kinds of evidence. It's what leads to all those Illuminati theories... And those theories that 9/11 was planned because folding a $20 bill into a paper plane gives you an image of the Twin Towers..

"I'm not trying to come up with a theory of quantum gravity over here. You are always nitpicking everything, as if Toby hid some grand design into this game."

He took many years, with one tested in particular playing the game hundreds of times to make sure the story was consistent. He DOES have a story to tell, and it's consistent in every way. When our theory is threatened, we shouldn't just say it's Toby's fault. We should FIX our theories.

"My theories will always be broken. You might as well stop pointing out the obvious."

In that case, your theories will always be wrong. We need to find the true story, which there is only ONE of. The others have holes. And if yours has holes, yours is one of them.

"Every single person who jumped down a bridge and survived said they regretted the decision in the instant they flipped themselves over the edge. The will to live is psychological."

Yes, and everyone has it.

"The power of soul persistence and the connection to the SLR ability is magical however, and is mediated by DT."

And they're also the same thing, as Alphys later showed that this IS the power that lets the, persist. This, by the way, is exactly why Undying gained a DT boost.

"It is in GT. But the more you think about it, the less sense it makes, doesn't it? So, is red not DT after all? DT is always spoken of as something concrete, not as some sort of a composite substance."

Composite substances still would act the same way, though. And, you do need other traits to have determination-I went through that in my previous post.

"It's all connected. You can find bravery in justice, you can find patience in perseverance, you can find kindness in integrity. Such approach gets us nowhere."

Justice is order. Bravery is being brave. They're completely different. Integrity is taking your own path, not necessarilly with the passion that "care and concern" is talking about. Perserveance is willing to fight on, patience is simply about waiting for the right oppertunity.

"Yeah... my other point. How are the descriptions of these describing them, if they're derailing to such mundane concepts?"

They demontsrate how you USED the trait. You have to use context from that to determine what the traits themselves are. Hence my decoding into it being order.

"Hence my statement that you cannot take the definitions themselves literally, but rather work with everything the word itself (e.g. justice) is connected to. In my case, it was to realize that justice can in the worst case be reached only by peeking into someone's mind, hence, that justice rules the mind, and could therefore be connected with the mind stone from the Marvel movies, which, coincidentally, is also yellow. Or that being accurate is striving for a concrete goal, ergo ego, goals, that is, the solar plexus chakra, the Manipura. Which, coincidentally, is also yellow. Or, the Vaapad form, which is all about being just and karmic towards the dark side."

Manipira and Vaapaar work. The mind stone is more of a stetch, thoug.

"And it also has to do more with that, than with being accurate - all lightsaber forms require you to be accurate, one mistake and you're dead after all. So I defaulted to the other definition, that is, justice/mind."

Accuracy isn't a trait, though. It's a skill. The trait must be determined with the second half-Putting an end to mayhem. The yellow trait is order.

"Not good enough. This simply means he didn't want to be proactive. After all, then the guilt WOULD be on him, for openly starting another war. But being fed humans passively is a different song."

When he orders them to capture the humans, and/or kills anyone who meets them, it's clear that he's the one responsible for killing them.

"It wasn't guilt that prevented him from doing it this way, it was his cowardice. But guilt was the thing that made him lose the battle against us. For god sake he wasn't even dodging and yet, dodged every single one of Undyne's attacks. And no, the HUD plays no role here, remember, we are trying to NOT go meta here. Afaik, there's no proof that the battle interface is real. Sans's battle is an exception but then, what are all of our theories good for, if Undertale is just a "player vs. game" type of game?"

HUD need not be player-versus game. MysteriousMalice has the right idea AGAIN:It's just how the monsters fight the humans in the world. Nothing more.

"I don't see any part of the HUD in that battle that would belong to Flowey's point of view."

FILE saved. FILE loaded. And, before all that, Flowey's HUD. No, no one can read our HUD, not even Frisk. Frisk rather hears it. That's the in-canon explanation, and that's what we should be defaulting to. Text is not real, speech is.

"Yep. Now show red outside their personalized subjective genocide speech. Or any other color for that matter."

What makes red so special here? I've already shown that Toriel uses red text, that Chara uses the same system with yellow text, so it is really much of a stretch that they use red text in the same way? Besides, how would they know about how the game works BEFORE the game begins?

"As I said, the end of the genocide run is irrelevant."

Why is it irrelevant?

"Chara speaks in first person there, and THAT is emphasized with the color red."

Still proves red means emphasis.

"I see no compelling reason why would a single word elsewhere be emphasized like this, if it wasn't for the fact, that it's in the area which is ALL about colors and color traits."

Well, first off, we and Chara fell down a hole, perhaps holes, therefore, remind Chara of that.

"Plus, a DT boost doesn't address the soul refusing."

It's actually my exact explanation for the refusing-It's only possible during such a boost, and it is similar to Undying coming back to life in a similar situation.

"As opposed to Asriel TRULY having the ability to reset right there."

And never using it because... You're the one that fails to explain something.

"It's pointless. A reload would accomplish the same thing. It did a hundred times before already. And me speaking of memories, that was to address the continuity issue. Yes, continuing like this would make the battle progress, as opposed to resetting, but Flowey could sense us resetting, and even remember it. It would still be the same. While no progress on defeating Asriel would be made, he would still remember, and we could frustrate him the same way we did by continuing without dying."

He was frustrated because there was no way for us to lose. If we keep on dying, we're losing over and over, so we're a lot closer to doing what Asriel wanted. Plus, there's the whole "can't move your body" to LOAD before dying. So, we still can't reload by dying, only by the same means we use it everywhere else.