Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27136653-20180228205701/@comment-32182236-20180318230322

"Wondering why out of all things a Star Wars reference was put there can get really messy. Like, yes, without the western world, SW wouldn't exist. But on the other hand, there's monsters and magic in this world, which kinda implies this isn't our world. Either way, the first episode of SW was released in 1977. Ergo, it is as I said, Chara fell in what translates to 2015 present day world. People didn't dream of space in 1915 the same way they did in 1977, and they didn't dream on this level at all in the centuries prior to that. In any case, Chara fell after space sci-fi movies were already a thing. And it wasn't a monster thing, else they would have no reason to tell it to Frisk. No one makes a witty pun/reference knowing the other side won't get it."

Or, it was just a coincidence, because "Loox" is his actual name. Even the HUD agrees with that. So, unless Chara somehow IS the HUD... And "eyewalker" could just be because he looks like an eye with legs.

"It's not at the bottom of the cliff, since we already have to ride a few elevators to even get there, remember."

More than one cliff exists-"The" cliff is simply the two platforms that are separated by molten lava! And MTT Resort clearly sits on a natural rock platform.

"We don't know if everything is cut off by the magma. As I said, perhaps there are other routes that utilize no brides. And about bridges, the very first bridge in Hotland IS made out of wood, and it isn't burning. So bridges are not an issue."

We do-From the same shot that we first see the CORE, directly above magma. Yeah, there's actually proof the CORE is above magma:You weren't aware? Here it is-https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5b2xkcTVISmZpLUU/0B6gS2LPXdIc5dmNyUWVCQUpRRDQ/0B6gS2LPXdIc5STZsekVqN0dyeFk/0B6gS2LPXdIc5cUltOVdzOWswNTQ?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a

"We don't know if everything is cut off by the magma. As I said, perhaps there are other routes that utilize no brides. And about bridges, the very first bridge in Hotland IS made out of wood, and it isn't burning. So bridges are not an issue."

You're talking about the bridge TO Hotland. From Waterfall. That after Undyne crosses, she faints. And after you leave, the material that monster cups are made of evaporates. (Wow, their boiling ooint and melting point have got to be pretty close together! Either that or the temperature itself jumped by A LOT, but.. Then we wouldn't be alive.) Of course, you do raise a point. Waterfall or not, the bridge is still directly above lava. Maybe not as HOT of lava as the rest of it, but.. Lava's still lava. In fact, if we compare the distance from this bridge to lava, to the distance between the bottom of the CORE (which is also the bottom of the cliff) to lava.. The CORE's higher above. (It's like a tenth of the CORE's height, that's going to be a lot higher than 4 meters.) Now we just have to explain the lack of bridges that appears to be evodence that the CORE is in fact the first bridge.. And I think you did it pretty well later on in the post. We'll get there soon.

"How? By not building an entire powerplant, but just a single bridge instead. There is literally no need to build a powerplant in order to bridge two places. Unless you want to get power from whatever you're bridging too. But then again, simply going somewhere and deciding to build a powerplant there right upon arrival is incredibly rushed no matter what. A set of simple bridges was built first."

As I say later on in the same post, I don't believe the CORE was always a powerplant. At the time of that post, I believed the CORE started out as just an elevator. A large-scale building with an elevator, yes, but still, just an elevator.

"Because without stairs, they wouldn't get up in the first place. And if they got up without stairs, then they got down without stairs too. I've never seen anything written anywhere about someone building a freaking staircase just to descend some stupid hill."

Unless, they just so happened to already be above the hill when they first came into existence. Not everybody in the universe starts at the lowest possible ground! And, the "hill" (It's a cliff, not a hill) there's quite big. You'd probably sustain a few injuries if you just walk off the cliff. Not only that, you'd be trapped there-What if you wanted to get back up? The stairs were built so that they'd have a safe way down, and would be able to get back up.

"And actually, hmm... trolling, in its exact definition. There is only one place where this concept has been proven to exist. The real world. So by implication, Asriel learned this phrase from Chara. Ergo, Chara is a 21st century child. And again, no, this isn't likely a monster phrase. It could be, but this is primarily a real world reference, ergo, it is very plausible that it is human of origin."

Or, Alphys in more modern times coined the phrase by totally ripping off the humans, and Flowey learned it from her.

"Build it where the magma is not directly below it, where a safe ground exists. You yourself said that the MTT resort is at the bottom of a cliff. Shouldn't the resort be burning? HMMMMM?"

No, the resort simply isn't made out of wood. It's probably made out of concrete and bricks, not wood. You know, just like OUR big buildings? Of course, this is irrelevant now, due to what we discovered earlier on in this post.

"Except, the elevators are literally labeled L and R, and they're also placed this way in the game. If you're getting confused by those elevator tubes, then don't be. Perhaps they go horizontally somewhere we can't see. You know, some sort of an elevator junction. I reckon that's possible to make."

Alright, I think I figured out exactly where. Underneath the rocky platforms. (That's the only explanation as to why we can't see this in action)

"Exactly. Which is why I argue that you cannot use the elevators as a proof of the cliff's shape, since you didn't even prove whether horizontal-riding elevators exist in the game. And by the looks of things, they do."

Based on Hotland's R and L, yeah. Otherwise, it would more than likely be true that there AREN'T any, due to the lack of an elevator directly from Hotland to New Home, without having to enter the CORE on foot first. (Because the CORE's a power-plant. If there was another way to get there, Asgore should have used it, as random citizens just walking around a powerplant isn't exactly a good thing.. Unless Asgore's just as bad at planning as he is with names..)

"None of the "inconsistencies" you find in this are actually touching the point. If you say that the elevators are all in a single vertical column"

Multiple. Not all elevators connect with each other. For example, the True Lab elevator is not in the same column as Hotland.

"despite their layout appearing to be horizontal as well as vertical"

Because there's more than one elevator.

"and despite horizontal elevators existing in the real life too",

All the evidence you gave me was an elevator that travels horizontally by EIGHT meters, that was discontinued, because somehow, it never stops. That was about the worst example that could have been given. (Though perhaps it's the ONLY example that could have been given.. Because there aren't any others!)

"all because of your presumption which you're unwilling to change that the cliff is unclimbable, so that you could say the monsters used the CORE to bridge it instead, since according to your view of things which you're also unwilling to change, the CORE, unlike the scaffolds which I've proposed, would for some unknown reason simply not burn up"

The reason is actually simple. The CORE isn't made out of wood. Scaffolds are, evidenced by their very definition.

Of course, this is all irrevlant, as the wood argument is now null and void to begin with, making anything I built from it also null and void.

"My own point is, that everything is fine. Since there's no evidence, there's no reason to assume the elevators are stacked the way you're saying they are. In fact, it is very much safe to assume they run in an "H" shaped grid, since we can clearly see that there's a left and a right side to this system."

Yeah, that's sound so far..

"Next, the cliff does not necessarily have to be completely vertical, as that would be quite unusual. Improbable even."

Which is why the elevators were needed as evidence. Because without any evidence, that'd just be a completely baseless, uneccesary assumption. And, turns out it kind of still is, due to elevators in Hotland connecting with each other, on both sides..?

"And once again, there is nothing in the game that can tell us about the shape of this cliff. There isn't even any visual proof that it exists, it's all just implied. And if there are no images showcasing the cliff, then there are no images that would would tell us about the shape of this cliff either."

Yeah, which is why I didn't try to use images as proof here, but rather, elevator acheticure. Since it's a fact that there's an elevator that goes straight from MTT resort to the area of New Home. Also... I've spotted a few inconistencies in the vertical elevator theory between the previous post and this one-If the elevator was vertical, and MTT Resort was on the other side of the cliff.. Then it would take us to the top of the Core, and we'd have to walk on its ceiling to actually get to New Home.. Which obviously doesn't happen. No wonder you thought I said New Home rests on the CORE-That'd actually be an implication of it. "Still though, a vertical elevator existing somewhere does NOT prove the verticality of the surrounding terrain. It really doesn't."

It wouldn't work though. Fact is, we go from that elevator straight to New Home. If the cliff wasn't vertical and e elevator was, you'd have to do more walking afterwards. Unless the cliff is actually more than 90 degrees, which would just make climbing it even harder. (Upside down hill..?) Of course, this is irrelevant, as the elevators probably aren't vertical in the first place.

"The actual reason why the monsters chose to build elevators there could be, that using them is simply so much faster than going by foot."

Yeah, that's why.

"Lava can be used easily to generate heat. Just because no one thought of it back then doesn't mean the monsters wouldn't either. Quite frankly, the monsters would have no other option BUT to use the magma. Us not using magma to such an extent does not mean we couldn't do it."

We didn't do it AT ALL until this decade. There were problems with it, like, say, the powerplant overheating (hence why ice had to be moved from Snowdin).. Some mertials could probably literally MELT at temperatures this high.. It WAS considered at the time, because, well, we already knew lava was hot, and had geothermal power, the problem was actually being able to do it.

"Next... the CORE first being just a passage way? You mean... like a bridge, with perhaps some ladders, or if not ladders, then ramps or something?"

I meant an elevator. Of course, now I actually do mean a bridge. That's how you explain why we don't see any others.

"DO they though? Do you REALLY think they do? Do you perhaps not believe that there are simply some routes which we did not take that would go AROUND this magma? I'm suggesting this for like the 5th time now."

Yes, I REALLY think they do. Take another look at the image:https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5b2xkcTVISmZpLUU/0B6gS2LPXdIc5dmNyUWVCQUpRRDQ/0B6gS2LPXdIc5STZsekVqN0dyeFk/0B6gS2LPXdIc5cUltOVdzOWswNTQ?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a

"They're books about monster history. I think the fact that they contain entire chapters about stuff unrelated to history shows they were never meant to be used for education."

It was all educational information, and they serve to explain historical events, so they are tangentially on-topic. Some things weren't explained, such as humans being unable to represent themselves through magic, and what would happen if an evil human came down-Instead, they were explained in books not even in that series.

"I also don't learn my stuff from some "omni-book" of human knowledge."

Not omni, some stuff isn't explained.

"Plus, there's the fact that they're highly subjective, containing personal remarks and such."

Like Asgore being terrible at names? That's practically a fact. Just like snails being bad at races.

"As I said, they're most likely personal notes"

Title implies otherwise.

"ergo, there is no reason why the explanations should preceed the actual documentation inside them, since there are no rules whatsoever about casual documentation."

It helps clear things up, though, so you don't find yourself utterly confused when you get to the documentation part.

"Just one: the more you write, the better. Which is just a recommendation anyways. Which would actually explain why the books veer off the topic so much."

Yeah, I explain this too, by saying they didn't-Parts 6 and 7 are supplementary to parts of Chara's story, while Part 8 fills in the "plot hole" of why Asgore didn't just take Chara's SOUL. (What do you call a "plot hole" in actual history? Like, if a history book fails to explain something important?)

"Which is why I then talked about Toby. He wrote only so much for each volume. It seemed like each volume contained an independent spoiler to the plot."

Where are you getting this info from? This is just as ridiculous as alchemy, and for the same reasons, as well. Come on, let's go through the Scientific Revolution again.

"He didn't write actual books. So one of the missing volumes HAD to contain something about Chara."

...Why? Because illuminati?

"It's weird thinking about it this way, but knowing what is and isn't possible is always good."

It's downright ludicrous. Just like numerology, alchemy, and the "moon hoax" theory. I mean, what's to say the Chara info isn't in, well, I don't know, Volumes 6-7?

"The plot of this game is largely a mystery, but analyzing the meta of the game can be just as useful as analyzing the plot itself."

The latter's actually reliable. The former's just a bunch of speculation of things you can never know. Once you're forced to make up conspiracies and discount evidence to keep your theory possible, you've stepped into the realm of magic. It demands a deep and abiding faith in things you cannot know.

"Watch out for oxymorons. They make you look like a moron whose existence is just a waste of oxygen."

Right.. Yeah, I actually deduced it using deductive reasoning. I used the fact that the Quran and Bible keep the original names to show the standard cannot be to discard them and start numbering them-If it was, it would be followed by these books.

"Also, there is no standard. Show me a standard."

I already did:The standard the Bible and Quran used in the compilation. That's the standard.

"Yep. But I don't think he wrote an encyclopedia that would have to explain and reference every single fact it presents."

He explains all about the Delta Rune to you, and asks what they teach you in school since you don't know about that. He's ALL ABOUT explaining everything.

"He just made notes. Nothing indicates whether those latter parts were his addition or not, and it definitely doesn't show us where exactly does it talk about Chara."

Which is why we've had to theorize on it, with me saying it talks about Chara around the same time it talks about the things you'd need to know to understand that, with you saying it was earlier, and the latter parts were essentially purely non-historical, and hence, "monster history" no longer fits as a name. Which means Asgore was the compiler..? And left in the remarks about his naming...? ..Yeah, that's why I took the former.

"Fuzzy memory or not, there's no way he remembered enough to fill several books. But that's no longer the point here."

Then what is? And yes, he did. It was over a thousand years of history, there'd be enough memorial events to fill that gap. And whatever doesn't get filled in with that will be filled with very detailed explanations of the science of how each event was possible.

"He's not a historian. He's a shopkeeper."

Why can't he be both?

"Also, those three monsters are the only ones we know the lifespan of PERIOD. Except for Papyrus, who wasn't around to see a human. For all we know more than half the current monsters were there when the war happened. We can't say that since there's no proof they're over 1000 years, they HAVE to be under 1000 years. After all, there's no proof that they're under 1000 years either, and we already have a clear example of someone being over 1000. So.. Shouldn't we just use Occam's Razor here and say 1000's the norm? Also, Gerson's a monster, not a turtle. Undertale's a game driven by story and mechanics, not by vague symbolism. After all, we don't see Asgore and Toriel doing goat things, or Papyrus being spooky/scary because he's a skeleton."

"We don't know anyone's lifespans. I personally just see young monsters, adult monsters and old monsters."

Yeah, and the old ones can be 1000 years, with the adults being a few hundred!

"By implication, the young ones probably aren't that old."

They're not old by monster standards. For example, for a dog, 11 years is old. But not for us! Same thing here. 100 years isn't old to a monster.

"I wouldn't guess Monster Kid's age to be more than 10 years."

Well, that'd explain why he thinks you're a monster like him.

"The learning curve is also important. They all behave like us, so we shall assume that they learn at the same rate as us. Most of them at least."

"But anyways, by that implication, teenagers are teen-aged. It makes sense too just from the definition."

Yeah, but we don't SEE any "teenagers". We see monsters that ACT like teenagers, like Catty and Bratty, but we don't know that they're called that. In fact, they probably aren't.

"Everyone else is debatable, but Gerson kinda boasts about his age and achievements, so I'd say he, Asgore and Toriel really are the only ones to remember the war. And that's it."

He boasts about being the Hammer of Justice. So it's not just that he was alive during the war, it's that he fought well during the war. Therefore, he must have been at his prime age-Around 300 years old(?) This places Gerson's age at around 1300 years, compared to the norm of around 1000.

"Lastly, FYI, Gerson is a turtle monster. It doesn't mean he's gotta act like a turtle, but seeing that he's old in the game, and that turtles usually live long irl, I'd say Toby did rely heavily on symbolism when he worked on this game."

He usually actually inverted it. The skelebros are anything BUT scary, Asgore and Toriel do the gardening themselves, the snails actually participate in a race, despite their animal counterparts being really slow.. So, by that logic, he's actually YOUNGER than most of the monsters. (See what I meant when I was saying we can just prove just about anything by using Toby/meta as evidence? I suggest we stop using meta before we start saying things like Sans being Ness and end up becoming just like MatPat.)

"Monster history." Not "Everything about monsters."

Yeah, not everything's explained. Just the stuff you need to know to understand their history.

"You reference the whole by its correct name. But that is often not necessary. For the most part, history is about small, localized events. True, for monsters, events spanning their entire population were more common, but still, I don't think they were common enough to warrant the use of pronouns."

Practically every historical event involed all of monsterkind. Yes, events were small, localized events. But, to monsters, the whole world was now one city. That was their whole world, that they didn't leave. Then, for a while, it expanded to the rest of the Underground.. One mountain. ...Yeah, that's pretty localized. Enough so that more historical events would affect the whole.

"It was just the first move and the second move when everything happened globally."

Before the first move, there was ONLY "globally", because the Ruins was all there was.

"Perhaps they didn't think that the barrier in New Home was actually passable, since, well, it WAS a magical barrier. That said, they would probably fear any other hole, but at the same time, they would try to use them to escape (only to find out that that's impossible as well)."

Pretty sure they don't think the humans are stupid enough to leave escape routes like that.

"But since the text specifically said that there aren't any holes, it implies the monsters thought the barrier is not like a globe around the caverns, but just that one entrance, else they wouldn't be talking about escaping."

It just said no entrances, and, as I mentioned earlier, it means that all the holes were sealed up, meaning no entrances exist-If they're sealed, they're not entrances. Otherwise, they'd count the New Home hole. Also, this doesn't make talking about escaping unlikely, it actually EXPLAINS why. All it mentioned about escaping is that it can't be done. That it's impossible. So.. Yeah. This is kind of WHY.

"This also means that the hole in the ruins wasn't there at first. Else they would never write that plaque to begin with."

Yeah, they would. Because they'd know that one was sealed as well.

"Saying that implied they had the entire underground scouted already."

Or, it implies they knew the Barrier would seal ALL the entrances. Because they witnessed it be cast.

"And besides, how could they write it THERE, when they resided in the ruins? If they wrote that during that first expedition you spoke of, then there's a good chance they did find trash during it already."

These specific plaques come before the Trash Dump. Before Mad Dummy.

"Unless you say that their first expedition happened very early on, which I would personally agree with. After all, not scouting for further escape route options when danger is not imminent is kinda stupid."

Yeah. It was early on, and the plaques were written before they moved onto the Trash Dump.

"All that said, I don't think your version of the story can work. If they feared humans and got into the underground through the ruins hole, then they would have settled in New Home right away. They would never bother making an entire city so close to the hole."

They first had to make some puzzles, which they did, until eventually they reached the end of the caverns. And that was it. Exploring around the dangerous terrain of Snowdin with the technology level of.. Like the 1850's (Probably earlier than that-Monsters were ahead of humans because they were progressing at a faster rate.).. Isn't really feasible, especially when humans could just come from another hole. (I'm pretty sure they wouldn't assume this was the only hole.) So.. They stopped there, and made the one-way door.

"A makeshift camp or something like that is plausible, but in the end, they wouldn't wait until 201X to move. And as I showed above, 201X did not happen a few decades after the war."

It was a little over a century after the war.

"They were sealed from the New Home end, and traveled through safe routes (which we didn't get to explore in the game) all the way back to the ruins, where they founded their first city. If the hole was there, they would fear the humans and wouldn't settle there."

Something similar to this was my explanation as to why they didn't keep going towards New Home:That they feared a human attack from the other side, from other holes, if they went too far.

"After all, it's not just about passing through, the humans could also lift the barrier. So even if they knew they can't come through it and think the same goes for the humans, they wouldn't feel particularly safe anyways."

And undo the one thing they were trying to do when they made the barrier in the first place..? That would free the monsters. Besides, they DID fear the humans at first. It's just that over a century passed with NO humans falling, and that's when they decided no human is EVER going to come down, because they "can't".

"After that, they scouted the rest of the caverns and came to a conclusion that there indeed are no open holes, so they wrote the plaques and came back to announce it too."

Monsters, you missed a hole. *points to the New Home hole*

"After that, something happened and a hole opened up in the ruins. Knowing the humans couldn't possibly know about this one, they didn't flee someplace else just yet, but instead built the puzzles."

Why even do that if they didn't think the humans knew? Also, why didn't they put their city at the VERY end, instead of the Snowdin/Ruins border? They supposedly went to the END of the caverns..

"When Chara came, they finally stopped fearing."

Chara would make them fear even more and have them start fleeing. They'd know they weren't safe. ESPECIALLY with Asgore around. Only AFTER Chara showed their kindness would the fear dissipate. And that'd take some time.. Enough time that Chara'd need a bed. Yet, no mention of this. Because at this point, the only monsters still at the Ruins were like 30, Asriel, and Toriel.

"What I don't understand about your version is why would they not move further than the ruins, and why would they bother writing something in Waterfall, if, as you said, they were speaking of the ruins part only? What would they be doing there anyways?"

The Waterfall part was written after the expedition began. It would be written DURING that expedition in fact, but before they reached the trash dump. And I'm pretty sure they'd suspect there being more than one hole. Besides, the New Home hole is quite large. What's to say nobody noticed that giant hole when the monsters were at the top of Mt. Ebott, just about to be banished? This was the monsters surrendering to the humans. So they probably "agreed" to the banishment.

"Just the premise of something being ABLE to flow in implies that a hole is present. There were no waterfalls back then."

Not in the Ruins. There were waterfalls in Waterfall back then, but the plaques were written during the initial expedition, and they already knew about holes, but just thought they couldn't be passed through. When they learned otherwise, they overwrote it with the "anything can pass through" part.

"Or MAYBE, there were, but whoever scouted that area wasn't smart enough to realize this."

The one who scouted the area was just Asgore and a certain few dozen regular monsters. So.. Yeah. That's reasonable.

"Or maybe they did, but the monsters didn't want to move yet again, since it wasn't urgent, as the hole in the ruins itself wasn't urgent, even if stuff could go through it."

It was. That's why the puzzles were created in the FIRST PLACE.

"I mean, just the assumption that the humans didn't know about the hole in the ruins is a good enough argument to support my theory."

The humans, who picked out the mountain to banish the monsters to, didn't know about an obvious hole...? That's suspicious...

"We see no fancy barrier lights there. So even if it perhaps is protected by the barrier energy, it is safe to assume the humans didn't know about this one."

We do. See that tiny white light in the intro? That's the one. Also, they're not "fancy lights". It's white because even light can't leave the barrier. This is both why the underground was dark before the fall, and why the Barrier Room is white. And also a plausible reason on why the Mages didn't make the barrier two-way:If they did, the underground would be forever dark, and the monsters would all die.

"And that actually gives me a new idea. Perhaps, if there are fancy lights, nothing can get through either way, but if there aren't, then it is only impossible for something to leave."

If nothing can get through either way, it would be black. Not "glowing white".

"It's not a hole in this case. Just a freely walkable entrance."

Look at the Epilouge again. https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5anhtWkdydDhqSWs/0B6gS2LPXdIc5bExzZGhMSlhucHc/0B6gS2LPXdIc5ZTBIZEFESi1zak0/0B6gS2LPXdIc5TGdEZ0tXcEN3WXM/0B6gS2LPXdIc5TF90ZW9lR0tTckU?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a

Bottom right. That's clearly a hole. If it's not, I don't know what is.

"Whatever the intro showed you, don't take it for granted."

It's a thing that happened in the games. It's a flashback. We should take every piece of evidence in the game for granted. Of course, only for what it is. For example, the plaques just mean that's what the monsters wrote, not that it's absolute truth. (I mean, it's clear humans can fall, and monsters weren't trapped forever)

"And as I said above, perhaps they did not count this particular entrance as an open one, since, well, it doesn't really look all that open. It's just a hypnotizing wall of light."

They would see the entrance as they were getting banished, though. Because they literally fell through it. That would be evidence the hole is open-If it wasn't open, then how did they fall through it? That's like saying 9/11 never happened. (I don't just mean it being a conspiracy, I mean it literally not happening AT ALL. As in, no plane crashes.)

"Except, this doesn't account for the correlation between the move and Chara's arrival."

The move was before. As I said earlier, when Chara fell, the only monsters still in the Ruins was Toriel, Asriel, and maybe a few Froggits.

"True, they no longer feared the humans, but that doesn't mean that this was what the plaques spoke of."

"Fearing the humans no longer" came from Volume 4, not the plaques. I just connected the two together because the plaques were made on the first journey, which I proved separately due to it predating the fall of Chara. With Chara eliminated as a possible reason, and the plaques offering an explanation for this, I took it. It's the simplest and most plausible solution.

"The plaques just (supposedly) debunk the possibility of a human falling down. This does not account for the case when the humans lift the barrier themselves and attack."

Which they know would free them. They know that the humans feared the monsters too-That's why the war started in the first place.

"So I don't think they moved because they figured this out. By all means of logic, they should have still been fearful."

They "know" humans can't enter without freeing the monsters, and undoing the goal they were trying to achieve with the war in the first place.

"And I don't think they would have concluded this solely because no human arrived through the hole in the ruins either. As I said, if they built the puzzles, then they knew that humans can come and they can't go out through there."

No, they built the puzzles because they feared that this was a possibility. They weren't sure, but why risk it? Better be safe and assume they can until it's evident they're not coming.

"How? They observed the trash and tested this entrance themselves."

That wasn't until Waterfall.

"And then we loop back to what I said originally. If they found a hole there, they would first test it out."

It was too high to reasonably reach to test. Plus, they'd have no way to test to see if it can enter, since they couldn't get anything out to try and get it back in.

"Then, they would get fearful that things can come through it, since light obviously can."

Light physics weren't known during the Middle Ages.

"And the moment that something, anything fell through it, they would panic and get out of there."

Nothing fell through the hole other than the six humans and what they were holding. And the Waterfall trash, which came from a possible third hole. (It could be just New Home though) After all, we don't see anything other than the flower bed that came from the Surface in the Ruins hole.

"It is much more plausible that the hole wasn't there, which would give them enough confidence to found their new city there."

There were puzzles.

"Or the plaques copied Gerson. https://youtu.be/hAAlDoAtV7Y?t=17s"

This would only be possible if Gerson became a historian BEFORE the plaques were written. Which would be before Chara fell. Which means Gerson somehow wrote Volumes 6-7 before Chara fell, even though we both agree that Chara was mentioned either at or before those volumes. This would require Gerson to know the future. And that's only possible if he had the SAVE/LOAD ability. And THAT's only possible if he had the most determination. Though, this might be more plausible than it sounds. After all, in the Genocide Run, if you threaten him, he says you can't do anything to him in the shop menu, demonstrating knolwedge about the HUD. Or he could just have gotten it from Sans like Asgore. However, that means my argument that "there has to be a minimum DT" might just be null and void, if Gerson had it whenever there weren't any humans...

"I hope we can both agree now that overwriting is why these ancient plaques contain such modern knowledge."

Some of it, yes. But, because of Chara's tape, it's proven that they knew how to cross the barrier before Asriel actually crossed the barrier. But, of course, we have to ask, how? *True Lab intensifies*

"You're assuming magic is that simple. Yes, it would be a hypothesis among them, but there's no actual way they could prove it."

Conservation of Magic? Magic is just another science in the world of Undertale. Capable of being broken down. And they follow a strict set of rules.. This is evident by the experiments done in the True Lab. And, besides, they had no proof no human could fall either. They were even wrong about that. So, it's clear whoever wrote the plaques was fine with speculation, and included it in. This would include the speculative hypothesis that since seven mages made the barrier, it would take the same amount of power to reverse it.

"And this is the chain of logic I think Undyne used, to conclude, that we're behind humans in tech, and we got everything from them."

"Obviously anime is made up."

Yeah. Not saying it isn't. I'm saying Undyne hasn't figured out it is. Basically, she's an anime fanatic that's convinced it all HAS to be real.

"The sole assumption that humans somehow managed to record the events of the actual anime goes way beyond Undyne's level of common sense and borders insanity."

When did I say Undyne's logic was sane? I even pointed out that her definition of "modern technically" is completely twisted. So is her logic. And her cooking, but you already knew that because she burned the house.

"I think you may need help if you keep coming up with this kind of crap for no reason whatsoever."

Undyne's the one that needs help. I'm just theorizing on what insane leaps of logic she took.

"Alas, perhaps you got confused on the phrase itself. When she said that anime is real, she wasn't being literal there. What she wanted to say, is that the events of anime are real."

And where did she get THAT from? "Hey, they made it all up, but it's still real anyway! NOO way that if they're clearly making this up, that the events are just that? MADE UP?"

"That is by Occam's razor the only correct explanation here."

By Occam's razor, "anime is real" means "anime is real". We already know Undyne is an anime fanatic anyway, even to the point of saying humans wearing spears was historically accurate, and not just the animators exaggerating things. (Or, you know, completely making the whole thing up, which is the truth?)

"And it's not the first of its kind either. I see language simplifications like this all the time. So it is safe to assume that that's what Toby himself meant here when he did that part."

It's not safe to assume anything regarding Toby, other than the fact that he made Undertale, the Halloween Hack, and Homestuck. And makes a lot of tweets.

"I'm sorry but certain things simply don't work together no matter how hard you try."

They do-You just say it doesn't work because "Toby wouldn't do that". Well, I say (not seriously, but just as a hypothetical using your logic), that Toby wouldn't just give everything to us:Therefore, the pink SOUL must be canon. Or, alternatively, Toby wouldn't make things so complex, so LV doesn't actually mean "level of violence".