Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20171213151556/@comment-27136653-20180119140127

About the motive, I dunno, I just don't see the monsters doing something like that. I see no reason. I can see why everyone wanted a war after Asriel and Chara died, but back then, not really.

"But the fact that they both look, act, and operate like humans, and are flat-out CALLED humans means they're probably humans. OUR kind of humans. ON EARTH. The intro even says "Two races ruled over the earth.""

Naming your planet using the same word for soil isn't that uncommon. Plus, many fictional worlds have human-like races, yet the story doesn't happen on some version of our Earth. Besides, Toby didn't think much about the outside world. If he did, we would have probably learned where exactly on our Earth was Mt. Ebott located. That would be the least he could have told us. But he didn't. So I see no reason to think that their world is identical to ours. Besides, why would a vegetoid be controlled by the USDA? Isn't this implying the story is happening in the US? Despite the fact that the US isn't as old as the monster kingdom? So unless the monsters have been sealed by native americans, this is either a plot hole, or the Earth in the story isn't our Earth.

"If the swords match swords in that time period, chances are, they're swords from that time period."

They merely look similar. People have been crafting swords for thousands of years, across the entire globe. But the main point here is, we're not looking at our own history here. This is obviously a fictional world. Who says that the Celts, or even Ireland exists in it? Of course you can find connections with the real world in the game, but that's it. They're just connections, nothing more. They certainly do not prove that this is specifically our world. If it was, Toby would have made it more obvious. Since, you know, WE don't have magic, so unless stated otherwise, this story is probably not happening on some magical variation of our planet.

Plus, the design of swords hasn't changed all that much over the years. The only thing that has changed are the decorations.

"Said counterargument is simple-If Chara slept with Asriel in the Ruins, why wouldn't the same be true for New Home?"

Suddenly more beds available. But as I said, I no longer believe this. The more I look at it, the more weird it seems that Chara spent an entire year in Home.

"The book mentioning them enduring these harsh conditions on their way to NEW Home"

Well just because they haven't mentioned them on the first journey doesn't mean it didn't happen. Besides, I think the fact that they walked to the ends of the caverns speaks for itself. The Ruins are an open place, judging by the view in that one room in the Ruins. And probably not too big. And New Home is crowded already - imagine the current monster population living in Home. So saying that they walked to the ends of the purple caverns, where they founded their first city is a bit weird. I mean, you're already there, it doesn't matter if you found your city in that corner of the same cavern, or in a different one, it's still the same sub-cavern, you're still describing the same area. Reaching the ends of the caverns really looks to me as if they're implying they went through the entire underground. After all, if they were so fearful of further human attacks, they would have continued all the way to the gray caverns where New Home is, don't you think? Of course, they would have probably returned back, since that's where the barrier is, but that already makes my explanation simpler. If they knew a hole was present on both ends, they would have stayed somewhere in the middle most likely, no matter from which end they were sealed in. But instead, they settled in the Ruins, where a massive hole is present. This is suggesting that they either walked from the gray end and then installed sets of puzzles when they found the second hole, or, the hole wasn't there to begin with, which would align with what the plaques say, that there are no entrances or exits (which probably means open ones, so the barrier in New Home doesn't count as an exit), meaning, the plaques weren't really lying.

So as you can see, I can explain everything, while keeping all of the plaques true. I don't have to assume that the monsters lied in this regard. It's not that difficult, really. Isn't this the simplest explanation we're striving for? You said yourself that you want to explain everything so that it fits. But what you're also doing is assuming that certain things are not true. Why not assume that the entire game is not true and make up your own story? That could work, right? /s

"And home's on the FURTHER end of said caverns."

Again, I wouldn't think so. It looks bigger than the path we took from the entrance to Toriel's home, so it probably doesn't matter. As I said, the Ruins are small. It wouldn't make sense to say that a city was founded on that end of it, or the other. It only makes sense to talk about the ends of the entire underground. Unless you think that each of the biomes is dozens of miles long in the 3rd dimension, which could make this work, but then again, Occam's razor. No need to be stretching the things so much.

"No way the intended way to enter Home was by walking through a basement and then exiting through the entrance!"

I don't see the problem? I mean, it's not like it was already there when they arrived. They built it all by themselves. And the same applies to New Home, so... what even is your point here?

"There is no way a human could come here."

As I said, this implies they knew the underground very well when they wrote that. For sure they would have scanned it for any possible openings. What this suggests is that the hole in the Ruins wasn't there yet when they were sealed. And I also speculated how it could have been created, if you remember.

"Therefore, they didn't fear the humans either!"

Uh... no. That's not what that sentence said at all.

"This couldn't have been written during that time when they feared further human attacks."

Unless we say that different plaques were written at different times.

"OR, they looked at the mountain from the Surface as they were getting banished!"

How. How would they be able to scan the entire mountain while getting banished? It's not like it took a whole day. The humans attacked quickly and without mercy. There probably wasn't even time for them to pick up their own stuff.

"There haven't been any humans falling in over a century."

Who said a century? And no, I don't think they said it because they were so desperate. That would mean they were deliberately lying to further victimize themselves. Kinda stupid, don't you think? Unless the plaques were written not by some official, but by some mentally unstable individual. For which again, there is no proof. So let's just assume that the plaques aren't lying again.

"Maybe the CORE was partially built to get to the flat surface that New Home resides on."

Just make a staircase. Sheesh.

"Monsters are smarter than that. Probably because they don't waste their time for knowledge on creating fictional books or anime."

Isn't it rather because they have magic? I reckon that stuff WOULD speed up their technological advancement. Not because they're overly smart.

"Monsters don't do fiction"

Are you saying they don't have literature? Is such thing even possible? For every monster to resist the urge to write their thoughts down on a piece of paper purely because it would have no scientific value? That's science fiction right there, and it was already made into a TV show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_(U.S._TV_series)

"Asgore could have deduced that the previous Royal Scientist was brilliant because of the CORE."

And how did he figure out that it was a single person, AND that this single person was the royal scientist? No, seriously, there's no proof of anyone forgetting anything. No one has any holes in their memory, they simply never mention Gaster because no one came to speak about that topic. Only the Gaster followers did really.

"It might even be possible to deduce that they were a skeleton due to the mysterious origins of Sans and Papyrus."

No, it might not. Please, this isn't the Glitchtale wikia. I keep telling you this.

"The evidence is there, and the monsters could "connect the dots"."

They couldn't even connect the dots that Frisk is a human. Sorry, but Occam's razor is posing a simpler explanation: Gaster was never erased from anyone's memories. Maybe it's just that most of those that would have remembered him are either dead, or maybe they aren't and it's just that his disappearance wasn't so memorable, since he himself wasn't all that memorable. I for example can't imagine Gaster being some celebrity in the underground. With all these accomplishments, he would have no time for publicity. I bet most probably didn't even know his name, just that there's "some" royal scientist that's doing a good job.

Or MAYBE, he was a celebrity and the monsters still do remember him, but they probably don't feel like talking about him when we meet them. Go through the game yourself and see which monsters might have said something about Gaster. I'm guessing the two construction guys in the MTT resort restaurant would have, but they talked about puzzles instead. One was very excited about them (I don't think he would be the one to start talking about Gaster), and the other one complained about puzzles in general (here I also think he wouldn't give two shits about some guy that made the entire thing x years ago).

Another possibility is Alphys, but frankly, she seems rather young? That's the thing, many monsters are young, or look too fragile to be hundreds of years old. If they knew about Gaster, it would be only from oral tradition. Maybe Alphys did learn about him, but then again, maybe she simply never felt like mentioning this to us, since honestly, we didn't really need that information? And yes I know, we didn't need to know how the Core works either, but I think it's not that weird that she didn't mention him. If someone truly disappeared and suddenly there was a massive powerplant in Hotland, I think she would have mentioned that no one knows who built it or how the Core ended up there. That would be a much weirder occurence. But she didn't. So maybe, the Core isn't so mysterious after all, just like Gaster, who was never really forgotten by those that were alive during his times. Just because no one mentions him doesn't mean he was forgotten. If anything, it proves that he wasn't all that famous, despite his accomplishments. Do WE celebrate Alan Turing as the one who practically won the war, by deciphering secret Nazi messages? Not really. Many people don't even know who he is. History simply forgot.

And also, the only one who seems to be a real celebrity is Mettaton. Imagine Gaster acting like him to become popular. Not plausible.

"We know for sure SOMEBODY died in the Ruins"

>"Can you explain the problem?"

Why sure.

Does Toriel hate Asgore? Yes.

Did she leave, never to be seen again? Yes.

Does Asgore have 6 human souls? Yes.

Did Toriel ever manage to stop a single one from continuing? No.

Is there any chance that more than 6 (this is excluding Frisk and Chara) fell down? ... It is unlikely. The game implies that all that fell down got their souls taken. Plus, there's the fact that they could all reset - if they died so early, they surely would have returned and tried again.

So, the conclusion is: No one died in the Ruins. It doesn't make sense, given the stuff the game implies. Sure, you can say it's not confirmed and then twist the things so that 999 humans dying in the Ruins would be a likely scenario, but the current explanation that 6 fell and 6 died is the simplest. So assuming that, no one could have died in the Ruins.

''"Possibilities, I'll say. But, remember, Undyne's BAD at cooking. Like a child playing with fire." ''

And yet, she's not a child. She cooks as she fights. It's rather a reflection of her own personality.

''" Where's the igneous rocks and lava? Where's the ashes? Why was this never mentioned in the history books?" ''

It was an earthquake. That's what I meant. And the history books, well. We've read a few passages, but the books are thicker than that. Maybe it IS there.

''" But each and every one of those discoveries were made by ONE single person, Not a team of millions. Discoveries happen suddenly, not gradually. And when you have someone FAR smarter than Einstein, they could make many such discoveries at a consistent rate. That's why the AI revolution will be the greatest revolution that has ever happened." ''

Indeed, someone was always first. And Gaster was a scientist. Scientists test and observe. Trial and error isn't all that genial. And Einstein had the correct ideas about the world. That's how he succeeded in replacing the Newtonian relativity. But even he is no match for Srinivasa Ramanujan for example. That guy ineed was a pure genius.

''"Frisk befriended monsters, yes, but that doesn't stop there from being a dirty criminal or two stealing dead humans' SOULs and becoming like a demigod and go genocide on humanity." ''

I think it does. But even if, the other monsters would surely attempt to stop this one. And besides, the humans have nukes and stuff. And the monsters seem generally happy on the surface. Every single one of them. If 7 billion humans were wiped out, they wouldn't be cheering.

''"They're not canon, but they're not "Bizzaro canon" either." ''

He literally created the game. He knows all the answers. He would not lie to us if he wanted to correct someone. It is like with Undyne. She said to the other guards that if she was ever friendly to a human, she would be mind-controlled. So she cannot convince anyone when we actually befriend her.

Is this the same case? Are you also one of the royal guards who refuse to believe anything Toby says from now on just because of something he said half-jokingly sometime in the past? (Not implying Undyne joked ofc.) Plus, there's this:  https://i.redd.it/mx1956gg0r801.jpg

Someone contacted Toby about Chara merchandise and this was his response. Is it a lie then? Why would he bother responding to people if he knew that no one will ever take him seriously for the rest of eternity?

And before you say anything, yes, that is Toby. Please, feel free to accuse this person of forging fake emails: https://www.reddit.com/user/SaitoKojima/