Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20190114161006

>What is your argument here?

See below.

>Integrity is outright stated by the flag to be about "sticking to your original style", i.e being true to yourself, and honesty.

It implies you have an original style to begin with. By which we mean a certain degree of stubbornness, not conforming to the society's standards, some sort of a personal honor code, etc. Red doesn't need to have this, it can be anything, it can apply to any kind of personality (except for the 6 pre-defined ones obviously), no matter the person's talents or interests.

>Everyone has all of these things, what makes DT such a special exception regarding this?

My original argument was that DT cannot be a trait, if everyone has already got the substance itself. Notice, I am working with three different concepts here: the soul trait (magical), the physical substance (magical), and the personality trait (electrochemical). My argument said that it's nonsensical for humans to have the soul trait, if they have already got the physical substance. In other words, it is nonsensical for them to have two "identical" magical components within their souls.

Now, you have argued that everyone has got kindness, right? Well, if you say that everyone has got the SUBSTANCE of kindness in them, then according to my logic, it is nonsensical for the soul trait of kindness to exist.

But there's the issue. It hasn't been confirmed whether the other traits (such as kindness) also exist as their own physical substances. Only DT has been confirmed to be physical. And on top of that, DT hasn't been confirmed to be a soul trait, so its physicality cannot be used as an argument for the physicality of the othe 6 traits.

What's most likely the case is that DT is not a soul trait and is physical, while the 6 traits are soul traits, but aren't physical.

This is basically what my theory states, and I hope you understand that now.

(Also, in case you have missed it, when I call a trait "physical", I mean it's quantifiable and extractable. Only DT has been proven to have this property.)

>Also, "additional magical components"? Now who's making up new rules just to fit their theory? Oh wait, that was still only you.

Anything that's in the soul: magical soul component. It's just a label.

>likely enough from each to equal 1 HS (Human SOUL) worth

Yeah, you can't really know that. Maybe the amount extracted didn't equate to even 1% of a human soul, what do you know. The exact amount is simply unknown. But even if it was one full human soul, we don't know if Alphys had the means to somehow utilize it for the barrier. We know that either it was one full human soul or more, but she didn't have the means to utilize that, or she did, but it wasn't one full human soul.

>Given that Frisk had more DT than base Flowey, who had at least one HS worth of DT, that means they had at least two HS worth of DT and jumped to at least 9 HS worth of DT to beat Asriel out by one.

Yes, that is indeed a nonsense. Remember, some of that DT also went to the amalgamates. So that already makes his powers but a fraction of a human soul, and we're still assuming that Alphys extracted such an unreasonably high amount of DT in the first place. So realistically speaking, Flowey should have even less than that.

>Also, you're still on that DT = SP thing, despite THA and I disproving it multiple times with nothing but in game evidence and common sentence structure? Wow.

You haven't disproven anything, you just keep talking that you did over and over again, when in reality I have very much addressed the flaws in your reasoning multiple times. What you regard as "common sentence structure" is still ambiguous and I have highlighted that it can be interpreted both ways. And I chose the other one, because it simplifies other parts of the game.

Please, prove me wrong. Reopen the argument if you wish. Also, read the next few paragraphs below before responding to this one or them. I explain my reasoning throughout them.

>the "correlation" you "had" (Strength and Power being synonyms) had no basis to stand on.

I mean, they are listed as synonyms on thesaurus.com, and my argument was about the fact that DT is the only confirmed substance found inside human souls (aside from the traits, which I don't think are the culprit here), making "soul power" the measure of the hypothetical power output of this DT. In other words, we need not assume that DT and SP are two different phenomena. We can merge them without breaking anything. And the fact I have no proof for this "trick" is not important to me. The trick itself is a proof of the simplicity of the entire system. You on the other hand are going around the long way. Hey, if you have anything against this theory, write to nochocolate about it, they were the first to make this claim.

>The True Lab Entries clearly differentiate the two into two different subjects

My argument is that the monsters haven't discovered or realized this fact yet. It works, that's all I've gotta say about it, and nothing contradicts it, because everything that seems to do can be explained differently. Now, don't get me wrong, if it was explicitly stated somewhere that I'm basically wrong, I would drop it. But the "counter arguments" actually present in the game aren't this explicit about it, and they truly can be reexplained differently.

Yes I know, I'm nitpicking. But isn't this better? Tell me, why should we adhere to the more complex theory, when the game supports a simpler one? Don't give me that "it's not stated/confirmed anywhere" argument. Yours isn't confirmed either. Both work flawlessly, and it's obivous that neither is confirmed nor denied, because we're still arguing about it. So, what exactly makes yours better then? And, once again, I want none of that "it's more faithful to the game" talk. Both are faithful to it, both are unconfirmed yet unflawed, and the only reason why mine is better is because it's simpler. Actually no, here's another reason, the correlation between SP and DT. That's a pretty objective argument imo.

If you too have any such objective arguments towards your theory, I'm all ears. As I said, we will never be able to prove either one, but we can at least try to compare our weaker objective arguments. Mine are Occam's razor and a statistical correlation. What are yours?

>There's also the fact that DT can decrease and increase, as shown by the SHS having theirs extracted (i.e decreasing), and the differences between the OF and GoHD fights(i.e a clear INCREASE).

In the first case, it's physically extracted. In the second case, we're merely comparing the power output of different amounts of souls. I'm not exactly sure what your argument is. If this is supposed to be an argument towards that "DT flux" thing that Frisk's soul experiences, it failed, because you didn't even address it.

>To everything else: we REFUSE multiple times in the exact same fight. It's even lampshaded by Asriel in that same fight.

To couple this with my responses above: It's not Frisk's physical DT that fluctuates, it's their psychological trait. This allows them, in the most extreme case, to refuse death itself. This is my explanation for this phenomena. And why couldn't the other children do this? Well I mean, in this case, the premise is that once you die, someone else will yoink your powers. The other children didn't face such a problem, meaning their souls didn't NEED to use the refuse power to begin with.

So in other words, no, this isn't impossible if your trait isn't DT, because DT is a substance of the soul and does not manifest itself as a trait, so the issue isn't trait related. It is psychology related.

>First off, the other six kids are dead, and clearly staying that way.

When we talk about their abilities, we are assuming it's about the times when they were still alive. There's of course a very easy answer for what abilities they have when they're dead: none.

>In my opinion, REFUSE is an ability exclusive to Determination and those with Red SOULS.

Opinions are not arguments, dearie.

https://i.imgur.com/bkPNOXL.gif

>To everything else: the problem here is that everyone else would already be being themselves due to their traits, making Red stand for "Being yourself" redundant.

There's hundreds of different psychological traits. Since the claim that you can achieve any of them by combining some 6 arbitrary ones is quite clearly bs (because there's no explanation for it in the game, nor in the real world), there should be and definitely are individuals that don't conform to any of these 6, either because they have something very unique, or because their traits are so balanced and or faint, that it's impossible to tell which one is dominant. For those individuals, the red trait might fit. If the 6 other traits were more generalized, I'd probably come up with something else, because I'd have no one to place under this scrap category.

So it's a balance of sorts. It depends on how broad you make the traits to be. If they're too broad, you don't need to put anyone under red, except for when the 6 are in a perfect balance (but that can be said only if they're quantifiable and extractable like DT, which is purely speculative). If you make them too narrow, then most of the population would have to have red souls, because nobody's personality is so black and white.

>My interpretation is that while the SOUL is you, the traits are who you are.

And I believe that the humans have a brain which is the primary source of their personality. Opinions opinions.

>which is definitely what the PURPLE SOUL MODE exemplifies

Isn't that more about being bound to strings? I don't actually see how that ties in to perseverance.

>I however refuse the Meta Explanation, and simply take the remaining quotes, lines, and such as your basic cosmic horror story. Nothing much really changes other than the loss of the double meta meaning.

Now that you mention that, you need to explain something to me. I wanna know your opinion on the monsters trashing their yellow names, telling you which buttons to press (including the F4 button), the Mad Dummy supposedly getting cotton all over the dialogue box according to Chara, and saying "reading this doesn’t seem like the best use of your time" during Sans's fight. Those are the most meta tropes found within the game.

>Heck, Deltarune even outright confirms that Red SOULS are vessels for other worldly entities in the Undertale Multiverse.

In the Deltarune universe. Lots of things are different over there.

>Mine is to: come up with a way that this world works without the Meta

I'm doing the exact same thing. You're just doing it in a very idiotic way. If you think that there are universes as crazy as the Undertale universe, I cannot help you. Lots of people believe lots of different things. I for example believe in reality. So when I see shit like this, my mind immediately trails off to the simulation / computer program explanation, before anything else. And that's mainly because there's no proof of such universes existing, but there definitely is proof that such universes could be created using simulations. You would just need enough computational power.

I mean heck, think about it from the inside. Let's say that the characters one day find out that their universe behaves exactly like a computer program (which it does; it indeed does resemble a computer game more than anything else). What are they going to think? That their universe has NOT been created by some highly advanced trans-dimensional beings, capable of simulating entire universes? You really think their first thought would be to immediately rationalize this absolutely pure and obvious parallel? What if we found out the same about our universe? Would you also keep so ignorantly claiming that it cannot be a simulation?

This is probably one of the most intense cases of utterly stubborn disbelief and denial I have ever seen in my life. You're like one of those Flat Earth fanatics, completely denying all common sense and logic, just to assert your thesis. I at least have enough brain matter in my head to acknowledge that the simulation hypothesis is also very plausible, maybe even more plausible than my favourite head canon: no meta at all, instead of simultaneously denying both and coming up with some completely nonsensical "let's higgledy-piggledy merge the two hypotheses together like the morons we are" third case.

I'm sorry but there's no other way for me to put this. Your theory and method is objectively too convoluted to be acceptable. If you wish to think of Undertale as an entire existing reality and not just consisting of the things it has explicitly shown to contain, there are only two explanations: our own universe, with only sensible modifications to its own rules being allowed, or a simulation. There are no in-between cases.

>Also, OK KO Let's be Heroes very world would like a word with you, it acts exactly like a video game (EXP, Stats, etc.) but is not a game.

The more game-like tropes it contains, the more probable it is that it's actually a game, regardless of what its inhabitants think, or what the creator himself/herself thinks. Being a creator/writer/game developer does not give you the liberty to redefine logic. Either something is a stand-alone universe, which must imply a complete disassociation of the meta (example: Lord of the Rings), or it's a simulation due to the meta (Oneshot, Matrix), or something isn't a universe to begin with (ex.: internet joke comic strips; those rarely exist as their own imaginative universe).

>The Battle System and HUD are intrinsically connected, you can't have one without the other.

Very well. It's a simulation then.

>Here's an example:

Unrelating. I was saying how he doesn't comment about how you've managed to cheat your way out of the battle, when he does comment on other similar events, that are actually way less important than this one. He even makes multiple ones sometimes, for when you keep doing the same thing over and over again. Isn't his transformation into Asriel probably the most important thing to have ever happened to him?