Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180721124230

"Yeah. I don't think any parent would allow their child to go nearby something that could kill them. That's over the top irresponsible. It's conclusive, monsters express themselves through magic, which means magic doesn't always need to harm them."

Which can mean another thing. In this case, the bullet pattern uses green bullets!

"Well, for some, the attacks were flying all over the place, they weren't all aimed directly at your soul. But that's still a pointless argument, because there's only so much space inside the box. Where exactly is the dividing border between a directed and a non-directed attack?"

Where:


 * 1-The place and angle of the attack depends on where your SOUL is
 * 2-The SOUL is more likely to be aimed for than any other random point on the grid (regardless of where the SOUL happens to be when the attack is used)

If both of these conditions are met, it MUST be directed. You can either play through hundreds of rounds and gather statistical data, or cheat by looking at the code that determines how the attacks are used.

"Yes, I am 100% sure about that. Why did Toby make monsters so nice? Also, pay attention to context, the line you brought up straight up proves all of this:"

It means that's life on the surface. You said Toby's message is that fighting isn't necessary. Now, if he wanted to seriously tell that message, to us, in the real world, where monsters don't exist, how should he describe what we should do on the Surface? What matters here is whether or not it works on HUMANS-If it works on fictional monsters, so what?

A much more likely take on the message Toby is going for is that racism and stereotypes are bad, and we should investigate further before determining one side is bad. Take a look at the intro:The intro presents the monsters as the enemy of the humans:Making a blind player probably want to kill them, seeing as they are the enemy of the human race, and, well, they play as a human. Combine that with everyone who comes never returning, and you already get a spooky impression of monsters. Then, you actually meet the monsters, and find many of them AREN'T pure "monsters" who only wish to bring harm to everyone they see. They're NOT Eldrich abominiations. From this, the message is clear-Look at both sides of the story before taking a stance. Asriel's message doesn't contradict this either-Yes, not everything can be solved by just being nice. Sometimes, the person in question really IS evil, and fighting is the answer. But, investigate before then, okay?

See? I can use Toby as an argument too. And whose side has more evidence? (I challenge you to find all the logical fallacies I've used here. It is THESE fallacies that will always be used whenever someone tries to use Toby as an argument. There's no way around it, and that's why we shouldn't do that.)

"Or it could mean that one out of every 30 monsters is going to attack you. We have no way of knowing just from the word "may". It could indicate a low probability, as well as a high probability expressed via a milder word."

Perhaps that alone doesn't say much. But, when combined with the point below...

"A fight happens when you encounter a monster. Whether the monster approached you, or you approached it first, is irrelevant. Though usually it is us who do the walking, so I'd say it is the latter."

We can't attack Gerson, any shopkeepers, or any of the NPC monsters, even if we wanted to. Also, yes, we can approach them, but a fight happens when monsters ATTACK you. Take for instant Napstablook:WE tried to force them out of the way, and they attacked us out of retaliation. A FIGHT also happens when one of Undyne's spears hit us, or one of Alphys' lasers, but that only lasts for one turn, and it's not ours-Seeing as the FIGHT is just the weapon itself. However, this tells us something about the HUD and the mechanics of damage-You can't be damaged on the overworld by magic, and encountering attacking magic is what pulls you into a FIGHT.

"Then what about any other route? And why set up puzzles when you can barricade the roads so that the human doesn't escape, something we've been over already? Though... I forgot what I'm on about here."

Yeah, that's pretty apparent. Once again, you can't just barricade them without blocking out the monsters too. Also, this is a question that still applies no matter WHICH stance we take, because we KNOW that puzzles were designed with stopping humans in mind.

"Well yes. Monster attack on a human soul does hurt. But the intentions of the monsters themselves are more questionable."

You should NEVER use offensive magic on someone if you don't intend to hurt that same person. That's like, one of the most basic guidelines to ever exist. There's a thing called green bullets! Ever thought of using them?

"That's how I meant it."

So he's not going to pull out one of those phones and tell the authorities that way? Why not? Hm, could it be because someone else already did?

"Exactly, why can't they just barricade the roads?"

This is a problem with YOUR theory. Not mine. I already explained it-That's NOT a mechanic of the HUD-And since it's never been alluded to, ever, that's completely reasonable. YOU fix the holes in YOUR theory-I've got mine to take care of. And this is GASTER we're talking about. You know, the Royal Scientist that Sans almost certainly worked for?

"That's the SLR system. I'm talking about the battle interface itself. The SLR is 100% canon the way it is, minus the menu and death screens, in my opinion at least."

Below..

"But would have to be, if not everyone sees it. Since that would be the only way to explain why the monsters don't react, et cetera et cetera."

Go further down..

"But why give the monsters a chance to attack at all, why not ensure the hit never misses, and why move the soul into the battle rectangle at all? That would have been far better for them."

Giving us chloroplasts would be better for us too. Then we would also be able to photosynthesize, alongside everything else we can do.

Also, since it takes serious study to be able to dodge these things, it essentially never misses. Natural selection wouldn't care. Also, the SOUL being moved to the battle rectangle is probably something the MONSTERS do.

"No, it doesn't. It's a turn after turn when that system is active. Even overworld dialogue, by the looks of it. The amalgamates are an exception to that rule though."

The very fact that the Amalgamates can talk at the same time means it's possible. And since it's possible, that can't be a rule.

"Then explain where this familiarity came from already."

From the war. Where there were MANY fights all happening at once, all using the HUD system. It was then passed down through the.. 1-2 generations. (Monster generations, not human generations)

"And that's what I'm talking about. Instead of being freely able to touch the monsters - attack them, your soul gets stuck in a system where you can't do anything, and can only use weapons given to you - the fight button."

Hearts can't hold anything physically. So, the FIGHT button is the way to use the weapon you have. The ITEM button is what you use to use your items.

"Next, you can't do anything on a monster's turn but to dodge."

ONLY because you can't reach the FIGHT button. That is literally the only thing stopping you. Once again, if I make a barrier around you, you really can't do much. Type up messages? That's on the other side of the barrier. (Same for using the computer PERIOD.) Watch TV? The remote's on the other side of the Barrier! Pretty much all you could do is move, and things you can do without using any tools, because the tools are all on the other side of the barrier. But, if there was a way to break through the barrier, move it, and so on, you WOULD be able to do those things you couldn't otherwise. Just like if there was a way to move the box, we COULD fight, because the button is no longer outside of the box.

"And the monster could also attack you when it's your turn, but cannot."

Which makes sense-They can't see the buttons, so perhaps the SOULs being within the buttons makes THAT invisible to the monsters as well. From their perspective, the SOUL vanished. And what's the point of attacking nothing, amirite?

"And that's not because they can't get the soul, we saw that Undyne's spears can damage physical matter, so she could theoretically summon some and hurt our physical body, but didn't."

She summoned them, and that merely brought us into a FIGHT. So magic can't harm our physical body, merely our SOUL. Perhaps there was magic holding the bridge together? There'd probably have to be, since the bridge wasn't actually connected between two sides of the cliff. It'd be a way for monsters to use less material when building, seeing as magic can regenerate, while physical matter can't. So they can build more stuff with what little they have!

"So monsters too are locked from doing anything with our bodies. Of course, Sans found a way around all of that, by attacking the soul outside the designated battle 'arena', but nevermind him for now."

That's still the SOUL. Not our physical body. So, he's locked out from attacking our physical body too. Because once again, magic can't harm the physical body. It only does that indirectly-Damage to the SOUL will carry over to the physical body. This is why Toriel remarks that you are hurt when you've lost HP. (Specifically, when she reunites with you, just before she shows you her surprise.)

"That's not what artificial means."

You're right, it's not. But that was your argument for Undertale's laws being artificial, so.. yeah. I said artificial-LOOKING, not actually artificial.

"But just for fun, name one such law."

I have several, actually! Eletromagnetism, Schrodinger's equation, and the law of gravity!

"The HUD registers their name as the former owner of the save power. That's all. They have no influence on any other but the genocide route. We thought our character is a player insert, but then we find out that they have their own name, their own story. We didn't get to choose that for them, we only guided them through. Maybe, our input was Chara's commands, you could have that head canon."

No, our input is still Frisk. But Chara has their own input. You know, walking past Papyrus' puzzles? I'm not arguing that they ARE Chara, but that Chara has a fundamental connection with us throughout the events of the game.

"There's nothing to indicate that he "felt" their presence."

Why else would we remind, say, Asgore, of Chara? That hope in ours eyes.. That wasn't us. That was Chara. That's also the REAL reason why Asriel thought we were Chara.

"He gave the souls away, he doesn't have the power, he doesn't have an infinite HP. His form is just a projection, a lingering effect provided by the souls he no longer has."

No, his form came from the fact that he still has some SOUL magic left, from the SOULs, before he let them go. He kept the SOUL magic from them, but now that the SOULs are no more, this is his limited supply, and when it runs out, he turns back into Flowey.

"INFINITE HP."

That's Asriel's.

"Well not everyone was taught to fight humans, were they?"

Everyone who would choose to encounter and fight a human! Also, once again, we're all taught fire safety, but what are the odds of actually being in a building when it is caught on fire? Same thing here. It's simply to be prepared for this kind of thing.

"Those were the monsters themselves changing it."

Lemon Bread, yes. Papyrus, no. That was likely a surge of DT, and Sans was as well. But it was nowhere NEAR as big as in Asriel's fight, since the stakes weren't nearly as high.

"But if you think about it, it makes sense from a non-meta point of view. The amalgamate removed space by closing their jaw. Papyrus made you able to fly, ergo your space grew in size. Sans, he had no reason to let you move your own box though."

Which means it wasn't Sans. That simple.

"Well that doesn't make much sense outside the context of the genocide route, does it?"

Hey, the monsters are cheering on for the fight with Asgore, where for all they know, we will die. Nobody ever made it past him, after all.

Now, I ask this again.. Assuming they AREN'T trying to influence Asgore's fight.. Why would they tell you that story.. WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAHHHH!!!!!

"Yeah. Only, the big bang is very simple, while this thing is awfully specific in pretty much everything and requires lots of context. It's not a good analogy."

And I gave you plenty of context. I was talking about this particular portion of it. Here's a better example-Which interpretation of quantum mechanics is the objectively, 100% correct one?

--- "They clearly don't, as they can't even dodge and don't recognize that you're a human even though you are practically rubbing it in their faces."

I talk about the latter above, so I'll answer only the former here. I told you, dodging human attacks requires a lot more than just moving around randomly. Human attacks are invisible, and aim for wherever the monster is. From their perspective, the attack is undodgable. Like I said earlier, in order to successfully dodge an attack, you have to both know that there IS an invisible button that causes the attack, actually know when the invisible button is pushed, and precisely as well, predict the time gap between that and the attack actually being used, and THEN move, at just the right moment. So it's a lot harder than it sounds at first.

"If I recall correctly, he could tell we're a kid right away, but found out we're a human only after Undyne told him."

Hm, what do you know, the ONE time where an ordinary monster reacts, and says you're a human, is when he doesn't know that at first, and isn't obvious to him! Also, why don't the monsters telling the story of Asriel point out that you're a human? Because they don't want to state the obvious?

"Yeah. Somehow, they found out all about it, ALL thanks to their BRILLIANT people of science! Roll the credits, we now have all the answers we've been looking for!"

Look, the process is quite simple. The monsters notice there is an invisible attack, that damages them at times. They connect it to happening after they finish attacking. They literally SEE that your SOUL is in some kind of rectangle, and appears to vanish right after you finish attacking, and thus, they can't attack anymore. ...And that's about all they know about the HUD. This is actually pretty simple stuff-You don't even need brilliant scientists for that. What you DO need them for are the more complex aspects of it.

"And why is that?"

If I summon a magical barrier, is it only simulated? After all, I basically made something out of nothing. If I design a computer, is it merely simulated? If I create some of these complex bullet patterns, are THEY merely simulated?

..See my point? The universe being created by an intelligent being doesn't mean it's a simulation. It just means it was created be an intelligent being.

- "All rgs say that you are a human (with the exception of the Lesser Dog and Greater Dog, who are too preoccupied with being dogs, and Doggo, who cannot see you), which indicates they DO want to point it out."

Royal Guards, in their higher position, would be more formal regarding the battles.

"Well, how do we know the people living outside New Home knew what Chara looked like?"

..Chara fell into the Ruins. I'm PRETTY sure the monsters living outside of New Home would see the second prince when they stopped by at these places on the way to New Home. Plus, there's also the six humans after that.

"Also, if some monster that has never seen a human before knew what a human looks like, my guess would be that their parents described them to it in a great detail."

Or school. That's a thing too, you know.

"YO! How COOL would it be if UNDYNE came to school!? She could beat up ALL the teachers!!"-Monster Kid