Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-33883848-20190307192443

"Because that's what you're saying."

I meant that just because you say firmess of purpose is to get the best conclusion doenst mean it true.You can have the firmess to achieve anything,not just the objectively best ending.

"No, it's stated that they achieved the quota for thr Red Trait by using a combination of the 6 traits, and the trait itself in the case of the second flag."

Stop to be that dumb please,all tactics you use to get the ball in the flag reflect it trait.You use kindnesz to achieve the quota for kindness flag by being nice with the ball,patience to achieve quota for the patience flag by being patient,you were brave to achieve the guota to get the bravery flag,you had "strong moral principles"(originality)to achieve the quota for the integrity etc...

So if Frisk used all those traits to get the red flag then that means the red flag=all flags.

'2nd Flag: Try as you might, you continue to be yourself."

Huh,why did you wrote this quote?

"Despite your attempts, your are firm in who you are," is essentially what it's saying."

Its saying that Frisk hardly "continue to be themself"as its hard for them to use tactics required to get the second red flag.This quota is in fact the most difficult to achieve in the ball game so its only stating fact.

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"1: Why?"

Because there's something we call logic,that why.

"2: You do know "fills you with Determination" is to mean that you're becoming more determined, right? Outright saying that would be redundant. Frisk is already determined, so they're becoming more determined through these things."

But the narrator NEVER says it give Frisk more dt,only that it "fills them with dt",

"Wrong, all humans HAVE DT, same with monsters. Frisk however is explicitly associated with DT; like how the other SOULS are associated with their trait."

All fallen humans had enough dt to get the save load power and so were also explictly associated with dt even at save points as save load power  is related to determination.

"1: Your goal is to live, so you're determined to live."

My bad,i meant goal in general

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"And wanting to leave in all of the Neutral Routes, and kill all monsters in Genocide."

Perhaps returning home but its not what give them "determination"(the determination Alphys is talking about)as the nareation never mention it.

And iam not sure if they are determined to kill alll monstees in the genocide run as the Chara make it pretty clear that Frisk is no longer themself since the start of the genocide run unlike in any other run as they no longer says "its you!"but "its me Chara",they are projecting themself a soulless person into Frisk,even Flowey says that Frisk behaves like a soulesa person.So they are likely isnt themself anymore,which is reflected by how monsters decribes them in this run,even cant easily notice them as Papyrus.We are forcing them to do what they wouldn't(so i think they are okay with killing monsters in neutral runs as they are themself in those runs but not hunting down every single monster to kill them)

"Again, it's the only candidate, and it all lines up. The only question i if it actually IS."

Again,it DOENST need to be trait,its a POWER,a FEELING not a trait that descrines you and your behaviour(let be honest the "firmess of purpose"has no behaviour associated with,thats just a feeling)as any trait should such as justice,intergrety ,kindness would

"

"1: The fact that they're their own separate sentences, and even mentioned separately at all, is enough implication."

Which again means nothing,they might simply be complementary definitions given the fact that it first definition is related to death and that Death is also a fate(according to literally every single fate's definition i found on the internet)and that even the ability to persist after death is well...related to death,then,thats likely the case.Even the fact the second definition comes after "...."implies that they rather complete each other.

"2A: Oh look, a god like entity is going to erase the world and make the Underground go empty! But I don't want that to happen, so I will do everything in my conceivable power to stop that."

So youre talking about the fate's definition right?Well,nothing assume that the world's destruction is a predetermined event ,there no reason to believe its a fate

"2B: Oh no! I'm trapped in the Underground, and might be so forever! I will not let this stand! I will do everything I can to leave and go home!"

All fallen humans also wanted the same thing

"2C: Oh no, I'm dead! Wait, I'm hearing someone telling someone to stay determined. It's not directed toward me, but the voice is so wholesome and compassionate that it fills me with strength. Surely if whoever was on the receiving end of this could be determined, then I can be too! *pops in back at save point* Onward with my quest!"

If Frisk was determined or using their own dt to come back by themself then they wouldn't need at all a voice telling Chara to stay determined.Besides,that doesn't matter,theres literally no narrative reasons for Frisk to be the one who use their own dt to come back,considering that the message is adressed  to Chara,they are the one whos determined.Theres a reason for Frisk to receive the specific line about Asgore telling Chara to stay determined,when Chara dies along Frisk,they hear the message of a closed person telling them to keep the will to live,thus it make them brought back to life.

Consider also the fact that the save load power ia under CHARAS name not Frisk and that Flowey says Chara is the one who have the power to reset,then its pretty obvious that Chara is the one who posses it,Frisk can only use it.

"1: The 6 Human SOULS".

Okay,whatever its suposed to mean

"2: That's Flowey, who has no SOUL, if he had no will to live then he wouldn't be here."

Wtf is that??So now you assume its the will to keep living that brought him back to life??but isnt the will to keep living dt??So dt is only the will to keep living??

Yeah,that works considering that Alphys says "what will happen if a souless being GAIN THE WILL TO LIVE",without saying "and the resolve to change fate",so dt is only related to death

"3: This is not persisting, the aforementioned 6 SOULS are a better example."

Thats the ability to deturn death in a way or another.When you dies having the save load ability,instead of persisting thanks to your will to keep living,you come back to life by returning to the save point.

4: SAVE clearly works by way of your will to live, while REFUSE works by use of your resolve to change fate. Again, how are these two not separate things?

What that suppose to mean??Flowey says that s the dt that gives you the ability to have the save load,without specifically mentioning the "will to keep living"part of this substance.Thats because dt only has one function:to de(turn)-termination(death).

By the way,Frisk has the refuse ability because well...their soul is determined to not be shattered/die.

"Fate is a predetermined event, circumstance, or happening that's to befall someone or a group of someones. Death is an inevitability, and the only way death falls into this is if it's a specifically planned death (like my examples) or an orchestrated event (ala Flowey's plan in the Pacifist Route)."

Oh so we have a specialist here!!!No really i have literally no reason to believe its true,especially that every single site i checked describe it as a predetermined event,mostly death.Here some links:https://www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/amp/anglais/fate https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fate

"That's not changing fate! The only way that would be so is if you went through an event (like being kidnapped and shot in a critical area) that made death a certainty, and you instead managed to survive long enough to live."

Death is a certainty.

" Except it does, because she outright says it. "The resolve to change fate" - Alphys."

1.That WASNT fate in general,she worded that way because its more poetic 2.The endings besides the true end ARENT fate as they arent predetermined.

" Except they don't."

Because we again have a specialist here?

"The resolve to change fate" - Alphys."

Thank you captain obvious!!!But fate isnt the will to fight!

"I believe this is what gives their SOULS the ability to persist after death...The will to keep living...The resolve to change fate...Let's call this power Determination." - Alphys"

If you didnt notice it says  "to KEEP living",and"AFTER DEATH"so....this feeling only happens when youre dying (and perhaps if youre suicidal since it says to "the will to KEEP living") Even Flowey confirms it as he says he was "determined to live"only when he was dying,even the fact that the Asgores message only comes when Chara/Frisk dies and he was telling Chara to "stay determined" when Chara was dying.

So,How would it make sence for them to feel the resolve to change any fate besides whats coming to them aka death when they are dying  ?

"So it IS determination yet at the same time it's NOT determination? Both the will to keep living and resolve to change fate are different forms of firmness of purpose. If it's one then it's also the other, because both are DT. You're not making any sense."

Im perfectly making sense,Alphys talk about it as if she discovered something new and even had to call it,if she waa talking about firmess of purpose in general ,then that wouldnt make any sence  .While she called this subtance determination well because its a pun,dt is a the ability to de(turn)-termination (death)and because its also a resolve even though its specifically the resolve to change fate.She never mention it as the the firmess of purpose in general.The substance she extracted is specially related to death and that allows to deturn death.

" Again, both are forms of firmness of purpose, and even then resolve is used in the second definition. So firmness of purpose is the underlying attribute of it all."

She never even mention the firmess of purpose,that's specifically the resolve to change fate...the will to keep living

"Yes, it was."

Oh,really do you have any proof that implies that souless people who come back to life thanks to other people determination cant feel the will to keep living/dt when they came back to life?

"It's a memory! No one is calling them!"

Memory or not,in this memory Asgore is calling Chara's name and Chara is the "demon when people call it name".

"It's also what allows Chara to destroy the world. So no, I'm not overestimating anything. Chara themselves say that they ARE the LV, EXP, ATK, DEF, GOLD, and STATS that increase with each kill."

1.Nothing even implies that you NEED lovw to destroy world,that's never implied to be required.but chara need it because they need to be emotionally distanced from themself to destroy everyone that live in the world and live in nothing for all eternity.Sans clearly states whats lv "Love is an acronym,it stands for "Level of violence"A way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt,the more you kill the more you distance yourself,the more you distance youraelf the less you get hurt and the more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others"

2.Nope,they are the "feeling"Frisk feel when they increases their stats not the stats alone,so they mean that Frisk can feel their stats increasing when Frisk increase their own ones as both share the same ones.

"If by nothing, you mean everything, then yes it does."

No like "nothing"

"You mean dead."

Yeah,not sentient etc...there was no way for him to feel anything when he was dead so neither dt ,neiter anything.When he came back to life,he feels joy,anger etc..and so also the will to keep living. "but he can clearly have it when he came back,after all dt is a feeling that all,everyone can have it"

Yes, because he was injected with it; and the same can literally be said about all of the other traits. "

"That's not a fear of death, that's the fear of the UNKNOWN."

So according to you why people fear death???Because the state you have when you dies is UNKNOWN.You dont know what is like to be nothing,this why you fear death.

" From the DT he was injected with."

If it was the case,he wouldn't be suicidal at first place since dt is "the will to keep living"but the fact is:he was only determined when he was dying because he feared of what would happen after death.That all indicate its his own will to keep living.

"The six traits are outright name dropped and implied to be what make up the seventh trait via both flags"

All traits combined make all traits combined ,conclusion??Frisk's trait is  ALL traits.

"You get the 7th Trait via the other 6 in some form, or exhibiting the trait itself more than the others. The SOUL and flags wouldn't have a seventh color if there wasn't a seventh trait it was associated with. And the 1st Red Flag wouldn't name drop the other traits if they didn't have something to do with it."

Okay here a freaking fact:you use tactics that match the trait showed by the flag.If youre patient with the flag then you get a patience flag etc...Frisk use all traits to get the red soul, so ITS their personality.And by the way the second flag means nothing,it only says that Frisk continue to be themself as they used the same exact tactics to get the second red flag as for the first one.Ans actually,the "try as you might you continue to be yourslef"is very very vague statement.

"The red trait is clearly its own trait, there wouldn't be a Red SOUL and flag if their wasn't, and has its own identity and attributes."

Yes,its all traits

"The mystery is what it is. Again, the only candidate is Determination because it matches with everything."

Match with nothing,you mean?

."And what ate these imaginary tactics?"

I dont know as "you never gave up your goal despite how hard it was to achieve it,that allowed you to win at the ball game"

"How so?"

Because they changed the meaning of kindness making it related to dt by giving kindness a whole dufferent meaning,said that you need order so "justuce"to have firmess of purpose etc....Thats so absurd especially considering firmess of purpose is only that firmess of purpose...Toby fox wouldnt put those whole traits to the red flag if red was simply the firmess of purpose.