Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-33883848-20190130161221

."Yeah, that still separates the two as different applications of DT. Also, the God of Hyperdeath fight is a FANTASTIC example of "resolve to change fate."

Listen, Alphys use those two definitions for the EXACT SAME SUBSTANCE. Why would it have so different functions? In one hand the will to live on, on the other the firmess of purpose?? Not only that but Alphys talk about those definitions as If they complete each other.And yeah, perhaps Asriel battle is good example of "wil to change fate"amd what?? This is also a fantastic example of keeping hope regardless anything etc... But that doesnt mean that dt is related with anything more than the will to keep living.during pacifist end, Frisk has huge determination yes, but during Omega flowey fight, they havent, their soul doesnt even refuse during this battle.Given that dt's first dt is "the will to keep living", the "resolve to change fate"likely means the "firm will to change death", because here the two definitions complete each other.Dt substance just cant have so different functions. And Alphys also never describe dt as the will to achieve goal,but specifically as the resolve to change fate amd that part is important.

And honestly, Frisk seems to only have huge will to keep living in the pacifist end battle,because they dont want to die as they want to save their friends

"See the pattern here? CONTINUING, as in REPEATING, doing things over again and again and again. Not being driven to achieve, or doing so to fulfill a purpose, simply REPEATING like a scientist or analyst."

What??? Perseverance is described in the game as somethimg that push you to go forward despite feeling traped. Thats because of their will to achieve their goal, so dt. And how kindness etc .. have anything to do with perseverance?? Kidness is beimg kind, integrety being honest and original, bravery with being brave, they have nothing to do with perseverance.

"The Purple SOUL is associated with the glasses and notepad, meaning Perseverance is more of an analytical approach rather than a compulsory one."

The fallen persevernce kid had analytical approach but that doenst mean that there's no other way to be perseverant. But that honestly doesnt matter, you can be analytical and have "the firmess to achieve goal", being analytical can help to achieve goal.

"DT also completes the other traits, and all the traits complete DT. So, by your logic, there shouldn't be ANY Traits. Period."

How showing concern towards others, being honest match in anyway related to the firmess of purpose?

"Except they didn't, they're dead. SAVE is not the same as defeating a god like entity, and literally refusing to DIE."

They at least get Asgore so that shows how much they were determined. And again, Frisk only has huge dt during Asriels fight not during omega flowey fight where their soul even doesnt refuse when its destroyed. The true end battle is special because Frisk's friends forgot frisk and are under asriels control.

And honestly, nothing implies that the save load power doesnt work on the surface.The fallen humans may have only got this power in the underground because they were in permanent mortal danger. Frisk can also load their save point when they get the surface in the neutral end.So seems like all fallen humans were tye most determined beings in the world but still their soul wasnt red

"BECAUSE DT WAS NOT THEIR TRAIT! THEY WERE THE MOST DETERMINED BEINGS IN THE UNDERGROUND BECAUSE THEY HAD MORE DT THAN EVERYONE ELSE, EVEN IF THEIR TRAIT ISN'T RED! THAT'S IT!"

AND SO WHAT PROOVE THAT ITS FRISK'S TRAIT?

"No, she was not. There is no correlation between the two at all in terms of pure definition; the will to keep living folds more into firmness of purpose than anything."

Yeah, theres relation to "firmess of purpose"but in Undertale, dt is only described as the firmess to specifically overcome death.determination as the firness of purpose in general likely exist in undertale but the substance alphys is talking about is specifically the resolve to change death.She called it determination because just like dt in general, this substance is a firm will to achieve something,here to change death, to keep living.

"Yes it does. The word used is resolve, another form of the word resolution, meaning firmness of purpose."

Here the firmness to change death

"And no one is ignoring it, but YOU'RE ignoring the other definition that the game uses and DEMONSTRATES IN THE PACIFIST ROUTE."

the pacifist run demonstrates many things.

"Yes, the game does imply that Frisk was suicidal on some level, but not only is it never brought up until the end, but it's even resolved by the time you leave Toriel the first time!"

If Frisk is suicidal sorry but their trait cant be determination because dt is the will to keep living, a polar opposite of suicide. And stop ignoring again the games implications of Frisk being suicidal:only silly random stuff give them the will to keep living as implied when you save, so what do you think would happen if those silly stuff dont give Frisk the will to keep living??Yeah, they would try to "dissaper ". If those things give them the will to "keep living/dt"but not the fear of death, that implies that Frisk's will to keep living has nothing to do with the fear to die as monsters wants their death, that means that its related with their will to kill themself but those silly stuf give them the will to keep living.

"Yes, because he was injected with DT, and thus had it."

He LITERALLY WANTED TO DIE because of his inability to love, so no the injected dt no way influence Floweys own will to keep living otherwise he would never think of killing himself as dt is the "will to keep living". Plus he explains himself why he changed his mind about dying

"But as I left this mortal coil... I started to feel apprehensive. If you don't have a SOUL, what happens when you...? Something primal started to burn inside me. "No," I thought. "I don't want to die!" ..."

That was his fear to die, because he didnt know what happens when you die so its not due to the injected determination.Souless beings CAN have their own dt because every person aware of death can have "the will to keep living".Souless beings need injected dt to come back yes but how could they have their own dt while they are kinda dead? That why they need other people's dt come back and that doesnt mean that they cant have own dt once they come back to life

"Frisk and Chara are literally sharing a body, a SOUL, a LIFE. Frisk was the one in control, not Chara, and Chara literally says that the DT and SOUL that brought them back "

Again just because Frisks dt was something that brough Chara back doesnt mean that Chara cant have dt once they are alive. Of course they hadnt any dt when they were dead because well.. when youre dead you cant have any conscience nor will to keep living but once you come back to life, you can.

"Obviously Frisk would see Chara's memories as they're being sent back, THEY SHARE A BODY. Even then, Frisk gains DT from seeing anything, from random silliness or predicaments others are in, to buildings in the distance that even vaguely associate with their goal."

The issue here is not that Frisk has Charas memories but that every time they dies those memories tell Chara to stay determined and right immediately frisk is sent back to their save point.

"Hearing suportive words from a kind sounding stranger that ENCOURAGES being determined isn't that far off."

Yeah, especially when this stranger encourage someone else to be determined

"You are not Frisk, people are not restricted by logic and reason, they more often than not do, think, and act outside of reason."

So i should ignore logic according to you?? Think about it, why would toby include the message telling Chara to be determined and right after sent Frisk to save point?? And after all Flowey confirms that you need to be determined to come back to the save point, that means that Charas dt was something that bring Frisk back to the save point, that keep them alive since the message telling to be determined wasnt adressed to Frisk but Chara. When Frisk dies, they loose all of their dt but chara doesnt.

So, Frisk is in no way determined kid. The only real instance where they are is Asriel's fight.

"It doesn't REPRESENT DT, it's a MANIFESTATION of DT, and yes there is a difference."

And where the difference?Anyway the manifestation of their dt is yellow.

"They played the game until they got the red flags, played until they got the ball into the hole in the fastest and quickest time and way possible. I do believe that is firmness of purpose."

You played the ball game to get the other flags aswell. Plus the red flag never says stuff like "by keeping your firmess to achieve your goal regardless anything, you won at the ball game"but literally says that Frisk used all the traits to get the red flag. That indicates that Frisk's red soul is the mix of all the 6 traits not determination. Not only that, but the only freaking stuff(ball game) that associate a color with a soul trait never associate the red with dt. Instead with the "hole"and "ball game"suggesting that its a neutral trait by default that either turn into the one of the 6 traits or remain red if you have personality's trait that mix them as personalitys traits. .So, its possibly the trait every human is born with.

Theres no evidence that red soul is dt, thats never implied in the game. Also often contradicted since Chara was a suicidal kid who tried "to erase themself from existence "by climbing the mountain. Flowey confirm it in the genocide run and he wasnt talking about the buttercup suicide because they didnt try to "erase themself"doing so, but to fuse with Asriel to free the monsters so Flowey is making a reference to their "unhappy "reason to climb the mountain. Frisk is also implied to be suicidal as they climbed the mountain where people dissapear and only silly stuff give them now the will to keep living and they are the most determined being because they are fused with Chara and Chara after death has huge dt as implied by the fact that they bring Frusk back to life every time they die, possibly they are so much determined because they want to finish what they started and free the monsters, to fulfil their role as the "future of humans and monsters"(chara seems to believe that meant to "free the monsters"since they would likely never believe that monsters think its possible to live in peace with humans). The only real instance where Frisk is determined is during Asriels battle but you cant make deductions just because of it. Frisk is also described as having strong feeling of hope in their eyes by Asgore but does that means that their souls trait is hope? Probably not. Humans in undertale are complex individuals so just because they show one characteric doesnt mean it reflects their personality's trait