Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180705223455

"So, is it a trait it not?"

What kind of a trait do you have in mind? It's a psychological trait, it is a magical trait too, but not a measurable one. In this case, a magical trait is the "flavor" of a human soul, and a human soul can only have one flavor. There is no proof that "flavor" mixing is involved here.

"As I deduced, order fits under justice."

FYI, I didn't mean court order or anything like that. I don't think wanting this to be fixed counts under the justice trait: http://d1xgwawrm1fpry.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ocd-pavement-e1439886249695.jpg

Or perhaps, the trait of "openness to experience", which is an actual thing in irl psychology.

"It's not quite a 1-1 coorespondence."

Then it must not be taken literally. Here, I'll give you the outline:

- patience, unexpectedness - bravery, impetuosness - integrity, originality - perseverance, taking notes (questionable, but alright) - kindness, care - justice, accuracy - ???

Here, any concept that ties to one of these (e.g. patience → observation → learning) belongs to that concept. You are allowed to use these chains to expand the definition of these, so that this 7-system can cover all N cases.

"Red need not be root stability. It's supposed to combine the other six."

I mean, HAVE you read something about chakras? Not the babble about how they connect to our bodies, and which moonstones they rule, that's nonsense. I meant the psychological part of it. Red IS defined as the sum of all the previous traits, because it's a cycle. It's all of them, while being nothing on its own. The only thing it is sure of however, is its own existence, it is the "root". Then comes orange, and suddenly, it is given a definition. All the higher chakras are given an unambiguous definition, except for the root chakra, because it's transitional. I mean, you are probably going to find precise definitions on the internet for all 7 of these, but what we care about here, is combining it with the UT lore. So, after the new cycle begins, red is born out of the sum of the previous traits, and gains nothing new on its own. But the subsequent chakras do. Here, this is what I'm mainly referring to (it doesn't speak of the cycles the same way I do, but you'll get the point): https://malavikasuresh.wordpress.com/2012/09/22/chakras-7-year-development-life-cycles/

"Didn't you just say the names aren't meant to be taken literally?"

That was not in the name. That was the trait's description. I simply tried to come up with an explanation for it that wouldn't collide with an extension of the patience trait. It is learning, yes, but with only one goal in mind. So that you would pass whatever you're trying to pass. Patience is not necessarily about that, it's not about anything mandatory for your existence or well-being. I mean, IS perseverance just patience in disguise? Is bravery just an inverted patience (due to its in-game mechanics)? I don't think so.

"Would it not then also fit in with kindness, compassion?"

That's a whole new category. Believe me, this one's a bit difficult for me too. The Maslow hiearchy of human needs is partially based on chakras, with the first level being original, the second being based on the root, the third on the sacral point, the fourth on solar plexus, and the last one on the sum of the throat, third eye and crown chakras. There's nothing stemming from the heart chakra here, in this much more practical system. So I had to do some more digging. Why did the vedas differentiate between these two? ... In essence, when an emotion comes closer to sexuality, it is sacral, and when it comes closer to social skills, it is the heart. One is expressing, the other is giving.

"The chakra system in GENERAL isn't supported by science."

Actually, there is some degree of truth to it. After all, I did mention Maslow's hiearchy of needs, which, while not being without criticism, is still widely taught, and is scarily similar to the chakras concept. But that's as much as I'm willing to believe when it comes to chakras. The rest is bs.

"The flag says that red happens by using all the other traits, which would put it at the end of the cycle, not the beginning."

The progress is non-additive, the traits are being added in spontaneously as you ascend. The only time you add, it is during the purple-red transition, which bumps you up to the next cycle. Here, I've drawn a little something to make it more clear: https://puu.sh/ARw2t/918a467508.png

"Makes sense when its the end of the cycle. Yet, Undertale puts red as the one combining the others together. So, to say the traits were based off these chakras doesn't fit anymore."

I mean, you don't LOSE the stuff you've previously acquired. But with red, it's only defining quality is the fact, that it's a sum. It doesn't gain anything new on its own, because it ISN'T anything on its own. It's just "being yourself" - Literally? Nothing. Figuratively? Eh... god knows what.

"You said it had to do with divinity. Divinity is explicitly religious."

Spirituality. It doesn't have to be anything religious, just, otherworldly, transcendental. After all, that's how you transcend to the next cycle, by understanding the underlying philosophy of the previous cycle, and that's often to ask the deepest of questions. That's also the source of the perseverance power - nothing physical, to be concrete.

"It's about waiting."

... and how does one know when to strike? Is it not about observing and or preparation as well?

"AND taking notes."

I mean, if that's what it takes to survive, sure. It is one of many aspects of perseverance. Other times, you may need to LISTEN for signals, or perhaps utilize math to analyze the situation in order to predict it. So, to broaden it, it's about taking mental notes, it's about PRECOGNITION.

"The ball game was invented by monsters that had no divine knolwedge. They would have no reason to put in taking notes, unless that was a part of the trait they were trying to demonstrate."

Then it is possible that they put that line in just because of Muffet's attacks. Maybe she's the only monster with purple attacks currently alive, who knows. Also, such would imply that the ball game is not to be trusted. Maybe, this is yet another false flag that Toby planted in. So... in such case, why are we even discussing it?

"Loose connections are one of the worst kinds of evidence."

It's been 3 years. We've got nothing better at this point. Nothing. Nill. Zilch. People analyzed and probed this game from all kinds of scientific, meta and psychological points of view. You're not the first one tapping this topic (nor the last one, unfortunately). The only direction we can go on from here, is outwards. To broaden the scope of our theories, and start discussing new possibilities.

Have you ever noticed we've been walking in a big circle for the past year of our discussions? Yeah. There's nothing new left for us anymore.

"He took many years, with one tested in particular playing the game hundreds of times to make sure the story was consistent."

I mean, he did do some patching work, such as the explanation Toriel gave for why Asgore chose not to go out with the first collected soul, but the story he created was nowhere as complex as let's say the Lord of the Rings lore. And most of that time he spent actually PROGRAMMING the game, you know. Or working on the music for that matter. In retrospect, Undertale is a game about shattering the 4th wall and putting a spin on the classic gaming tropes. That's what Toby was aiming for. The backstory for everything was just a cherry on top, to add some logic to the story too. And look how people played with it! Some of them are even claiming to this day THAT THIS WAS TOBY'S MAIN FOCUS SINCE THE BEGINNING, isn't that right?

Listen, I don't know what you keep looking for, but you're not gonna find it. There's nothing more to the lore than this. The beta testers didn't ask the questions that we do, they didn't question whether for example Gerson wrote those books in Snowdin or not, they've had better things to focus on. And nor did they datamine the game. And I have no idea where you got the idea that some beta tester played the game literally hundreds of times to fact-check literally everything in it from. Like, proof please?

In essence, it is Toby's fault. He's the type of person who would rather put glass tiles below a sprite that went out of their bounds, rather than to fix the behavior of the sprite to begin with. Or to outright contradict himself at a KEY POINT in the game, where we're supposed to leave the underground and yet, we have no monster soul, plus, the barrier is still not shattered. Two barriers? Please. Just because you came up with it doesn't make it confirmed canon. You're not Toby. So yeah, imagine what else did he save on...

"We need to find the true story, which there is only ONE of. The others have holes. And if yours has holes, yours is one of them."

The true story is what the game confirms. Everything else is but speculations. The nature of the red soul? The author of the first 8 lab entries? The cause of the war? Chara's personality? The TIMELINE itself? The SLR ability/the meta aspect of the game? The fandom is still torn on these key points even 3 years after the game's release. You may be right in everything, but you may also be equally likely wrong in everything. It is CLEAR AS DAY that there is no, and that there will never BE any correct answer. Not until Toby starts barking again.

Saying your theory is the only correct one is literally an offense to the entire fandom. So please, just shut the f up already, you self-entitled prick. These discourses are becoming literally insufferable thanks to you.

"Composite substances still would act the same way, though. And, you do need other traits to have determination-I went through that in my previous post."

Well apparently, you do? So pick and choose, I guess.

"Justice is order. Bravery is being brave. They're completely different."

Justice is not order. It has nothing to do with arrangement, calmness, harmony, order, peace or tidiness, it is a proactive truth seeking and accuracy. And for that, you need a certain degree of balls. As for integrity, the concept of morality also ties to that one, as evidenced by Sans speaking so of Toriel (I mean, the way he put it showed the near synonymity of those two words), and morality stems from justice, but also from certain aspects usually attributed to kindness. Finally, patience is certainly not only about waiting. That would make it a direct inverse of bravery, if its only definition was how you gotta act during cyan attacks. However, even then, you cannot omit the fact that if perseverance is defined under "taking notes", then patience is DEFINITELY involved with it. Unless you'd like to back down on your own claims and say, that taking mental notes is NOT what defines perseverance? Because observing, taking notes, all of that is a completely natural extension of patience. Unlike for example integrity being tied to originality - that one isn't as straightforward as this example.

"Manipira and Vaapaar work. The mind stone is more of a stetch, thoug."

How do you exert justice? When you have evidence? When you have witnesses? When you have indirect evidence? When you have circumstantial evidence? When you've got no evidence at all? ... what reveals the truth in the worst case scenario? ... God? Time travel? We can get more down-to-Earth than that. The essence, the thing that stores a person's memories, works beautifully.

"Putting an end to mayhem."

Could have been a metaphor too. For example, it could have been about taking the fun out of the situation, since you were having fun playing that game, weren't you? I mean, sure, justice ties to law and order, so why not. I'm just saying, it may not be this literal.

"When he orders them to capture the humans, and/or kills anyone who meets them, it's clear that he's the one responsible for killing them."

I mean, they would have died anyways. And that would have been a waste of a human soul. And besides, such would be pardonable. The monsters deserved freedom. And there was no other way to make them free. Letting God decide is better than picking out the humans yourself.

"It's just how the monsters fight the humans in the world. Nothing more."

And yet, they don't fight themselves this way...? What exactly makes humans so special that they bend the laws of the reality itself?

"FILE saved. FILE loaded."

Point taken. Still, I see no HUD of his.

"so it is really much of a stretch that they use red text in the same way?"

In this case, yes. It's right in the area that's all about colors. It's a correlation. And it could be the causation as well.

"Besides, how would they know about how the game works BEFORE the game begins?"

I think you can work that one out on your own.

"Still proves red means emphasis."

First person emphasis, whole sentences, LV 19. None is true for the "HOLE".

"Well, first off, we and Chara fell down a hole, perhaps holes, therefore, remind Chara of that."

Perhaps. I mean, I'm not ruling it out.

"And never using it because... You're the one that fails to explain something."

After we're dead of course. He said it himself, he needs to get rid of us first.

"He was frustrated because there was no way for us to lose. If we keep on dying, we're losing over and over, so we're a lot closer to doing what Asriel wanted."

He wanted us to die for good though. Just like Dormamu in Doctor Strange. And he got frustrated quite hard.