Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-33883848-20180704164815

"Fact is, they do use red text in Genocide. And therefore, this means NOTHING." Are you a troll or something?? I CLEARLY STATED TWICE THAT THE BALL GAME IS THE ONLY TIME WHERE THE NARRATOR USE RED IN PACIFIST AND NEUTRAL RUN BESIDES THE GENOCIDE RUN WHERE THEY USE THE RED TEXT TO DESCRIBE SOMETHING THEY STRONGLY FEEL ABOUT.Here its clearly related to the ball game itself. Stop to contradict my points just to contradict ."OH, so trait mixing leads to a red SOUL."

I NEVER FREAKING SAID IT NEVER.I said a billion times that "hole"(from the ball game) written in red implies that red is a lack of trait or perhaps a soul that every one born with before developing one of the 6 other traits or keeping the red one if they have a personality outside of it. But Frisk use all the traits to reach the ball into the hole and get the flag that corresponds to their soul, which implies that their personality becomes a mix of the 6 traits, which means that they keep their red soul because their personality is outside of the 6 traits and cant be reduced to one of the 6 traits.The whole ball game is about which tactics each trait use to get victory, Frisk use all the traits to get the red flag, the one that corresponds to their soul. If you are not totally dumb then you must understand what Toby tries to indicate here. And dont try to ignore it.

"Which means one of two things:

1-It's something about the Underground ITSELF, not the Barrier, that makes S/L/R a thing.

2-After the Barrier was destroyed, the power remained, and started to radiate outwards. We can still do it, because the nearest place with humans is quite far away, as shown by the view we get at the ending."

I wonder what make this power exclusive to the underground even so theres no longer any barrier?? Also absolutely nothing implies that Frisk still have this power even so the barrier is broken because we are far from the humanity. Also Frisk had more determination than the absolute god of hyperdeath, so why would'nt they have more than every single other human?

"Frisk never made it to the Surface. You need a human SOUL and a monster SOUL. Frisk had no monster SOUL. That's we were able to hear Sans' call, when NOTHING is supposed to leave the barrier except for beings with a powerful SOUL. (Fun fact, this is why the Barrier appears as pure white. Not even light can cross the barrier"

Sorry Sherlock but Frisk and Flowey do cross and here a canonical proof : https://www.google.fr/amp/adamency.tumblr.com/post/143766235842/frisks-escape-from-the-underground/amp

By the way Alphys never says that we necessarily requires a human and a monster soul just that a human soul isnt strong enough to cross the barrier so that we need at least a human soul and a monster, but she dont know about the whole essence thing fusionated with a soul. So its seems like Frisk can cross the barrier because of Chara's essence and you have reasons to contradict this.

"NOBODY crossed the Barrier. But yes, he would have the chance to."

You should really check the game source you know like i do instead of making free assumptions

"They actually DO say that.

"My 'determination'. My 'human SOUL'. They are not mine, but YOURS."

They're living off of OUR determination to this day. Wow, no wonder they want to keep us alive no matter what we do! If we die, THEY die!"

This line comes right after "your power awakened me from death", so its seems like by "my human soul and my determination weren't mine but yours"they means that something that awakened them wasnt their own determination and soul but Frisk's ones. Which is nothing to do with whatever Chara can have determination or not. And after all they are the one who use their own determination to keep themself and Frisk alive.

"True, but there has to be more to it than that. There's a physical aspect as well, as proven by Alphys' lab experiments. Monsters can't hold determination, because they lack enough physicsal matter. Chara's an intangible ghost that's even invisible. They have ZERO physical matter. So they can't hold ANY determination."

Okay at first stop to use comics and aus as evidence and what people often wrongly assume. From the game's perspective monsters have determination(proven one of the Asriel's and Gerson lines but also undyne, who is canonicaly reborned in the genocide because of their own determination(its the narrator who say it not me) ), but as Alphys says in entry number 17(innacessible in game) monsters start to melt with too much determination, but if they have a normal quantity of determination they can handle it.They start to melt with too much determination because they doenst have enough physical matter. Also despite all the aus and comics, Chara isnt some kind of ghost floating around Frisk, they are literally fusionated with Frisk soul, so they are basically reincarnated into Frisk's body.So Frisk's body is Chara's body.

"That's Chara relaying Asgore's message from Tape 5 to Frisk, so that Frisk would stay determined."

So you changed your mind about it because the fact that Chara use their own will to live on to revive Frisk proove that Chara have their own determination? Because it contradict your headcanon now? **try as i might to not be rude**.Okay let's see it 1.Flowey is a soulless being who was reborned because of others ones determination. Though he literally says in the genocide that he used his own determination to not die when he committed suicide, so why wouldnt Chara have their own determination if Flowey has one? 2.Why would Frisk revive because of the message they get from an unknown person(asgore) and if Chara doesnt have any will to live on (determination) how can they want to be alive by encouraging Frisk to stay determined?. So if they doesnt had any determination they would not encourage Frisk to stay determined. Also Asgore encourage Chara to stay determined not Frisk.

"But.. Why did six humans IN A ROW become the most determined being (out of a population of approx. 1-8 billion, depending on when you believe they fell) when they hit the Underground? Why not when they started their climb? Why didn't some random guy playing in the Olympics or some grand-scale event take the power? Why not any of the soldiers fighting in a war?"

Okay, there is nothing that implies that theres any war when the children fell. And since this power must to belong to someone who is most determined why not to a child who discovered a full population of monsters who also wants their death? (also toriel explains since the very beginning that the underground is full of monsters who would fight any human who fell) I think anyone at their place would be the most determined being in the world(they were also kids, who feared monsters more than any adult do). That all contributed in their fear of death, so they developed a high concentration of determination

"Hm, maybe because the monsters didn't want someone taking 50G all the time?"

So they prefers to loose 20 gold a hundren times than 50 gold for two times?Also you ignored the main argument, is that the first message for red flag dissapears right after your first red flag.

"It only said Frisk used all six traits. Not making their own trait. Also, original style is integrity/blue."

"Integrity is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles, or uprightness. It is colloquially a personal choice to hold oneself to consistent moral and ethical standards"-wikipedia

And once again,when its says "perseverance, kindness, etc by using these you were be able to reach the ball game ", the "ball game"is written in red text, and since colours are related to traits during the ball game and that the ball game itself cannot be a trait itsself, then its seems like "ball game"is still related to Frisk's personality but that it means that the whole ball game was about Frisk developing their personality, that why Frisk ""win "the ball game because this means that Frisk developed their own personality and this is why you cant get this message again. Though i think its metaphoric, symbolic, because i mean Frisk cant get their own personality for a so short amount of time,they likely get their own personality at the end of the game, at the end of the true pacifist run because its the "true end"(its been proven by the game code).For me, in the ball game context the whole personality development thing is a game