Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-29788596-20160906011125/@comment-38451037-20200130011047

Inksaness wrote: MagomaevaAmina wrote: "Strange. In the intro, we can't see below the Barrier, indicating that light wasn't able to leave. And AT the Barrier, we see what appears to be a white, shining wall, indicating that light simply reflected off the Barrier."

In the intro...but we see the humans creating the barrier..And there's no natural light in the underground... No i dont see what you mean, can you explain this more precisely ?

"Yet Chara was able to bring their own body past the Barrier.Given this, what's likely is that living beings can take things that they're holding/touching across the Barrier with them."

That's still a STRONG evidence that objects can cross the barrier, you can try to find alternative interpretations but that's still a strong argument. I also don't see how it's possible for objects to cross the barrier thanks to the touch...How does that even work?

"Ragel only says this if you haven't killed any monsters, and the Barrier hasn't been broken yet."

I wouldn't take what this only character states at face value. Its just their own way to refer to the surface.

And the music when Undyne revive herself is "but the EARTH refused to die'

And whatever or not destroying the world also destroy the surface, THERE'S NO WAY for Chara to destroy more than 8 billions of strong individuals with a freaking kitchen knife. Do you know how long that would take? And are you trying to say that humans couldn't stop a freaking a child? And is there any evidences that they developed any super mega raindow powers when they come back to life while they never mannifest them throughout the game? The game only shows that they can destroy the world at a strike, that's it and since you cant load your save file when Chara destroy the world and when you open up the game (since you normally automatically load your save file when you open up your game, something that doens't happen when Chara destroyed the world) that implies Chara destroyed the world by erasing your save file. So no, dying did not give them any special powers besides the one related to their/Frisk's save ability and Chara already knows that they have the ability to destroy the world and how to use it, implying that they always had it, even prior to their death yet humans are still alive.

So can you explain me how Chara menage to destroy humanity in souless pacifist run if they their death havent gave any mary sue powers?

And if they had any master plan, they would carry it out by themsleves instead of letting Frisk to remain in control and choosing the path they want, letting them to ruin their plans. They have Frisk's soul after all and they wouldn't let Frisk to true reset the soulless pacifist end if you succeed their "plan" and wouldn't let Frisk to carry out their plan by themsleves as it would be too risky

And if it's their plan, why don't they do shit in soulless neutral runs? Why nothing implies that anything bad happened if Chara is on the surface?.

"I mean, Flowey killed people for fun, and even tried to destroy the world, killing both humans and monsters. And yet we forgive him."

Flowey was driven to this. He was brutally killed despite showing mercy. He lost his ability to love, to feel compassion which made him even more angry. He grew bored of everything and is desesperately trying to feel something new. But you're arguing that Chara simply hate monsters and humans and thus wants to destroy them simply because of it, with no deeper reason. I dont see annty complexity here.

"Of course. As I said, they're not pure evil. They don't kill For the Evuls, they kill because they hate humanity."

How doenst that makes them pure evil? Like they hate humanity and want to kill them all simply because of it??? And what are their justifications for this?? That they are simply evil? What aspects of humanity may have lead Chara to wish to destroy literally every single human in existence ??( which doesnt even work because they see Frisk as a good partner even when they steal their soul,thus having the ability to completely take over them)

And of course, there's no evidences that any human even died in the souless pacifist run, so this argument doenst stand.

"They're still really messed up, though. I do disagree with the Chara Defense Squad, after all-So don't think I'm saying they're good. They're not. I called them an Anti-Villain for a reason. I know the name's probably a misnomer, but Anti-Villains are still bad. They're just villains with actual motivations for what they're doing. Which makes them far more realistic than cartoon villains."

Except everything that make Chara an "anti vilain" is pure speculation. Is there any evidence that Chara destroy humanity at the end of the souless pacifist run? Nope, there's not even small hints of this, it's only implied that they killed Frisk's friends. Everything is even fine untill the last scene. Is there evidences that Chara wish to destroy the monsterkind since the start? Nope. After all, they didn't undertand their purpose untill you showed them the reason of the reincarnation.

"Chara's no cartoon villain."

Oh yeah, your intepretation of them is a cliche spirit from horror movies seeking to kill everyone for vengence for the sake of vengence without explaining WHY they want vengence instead of a complex character with good motives just like every other character of Undertale.

"This is the category that I place Chara in."

Explain me how your Chara is a relatable complex, human, tragic vilain ? So far you only argued that they are sadistic little shit wishing to make everyone suffer at their own hands (while these people havent done anything to them ) just because they hate humanity and monsters. So yeah, wishing everyone's death for no reason.

Not only that but you oppose the idea that Chara is redeemable, arguing that they can't overcome their hatred of humanity unlike every other character. You argue that they'll always wish their destruction. A character can't be complex and human if they are irredeemable, similarly to how a pure evil character can't be redeemed because the definition of pure evil is that there's no good left inside of them. So yeah, Chara can't be complex AND iredemable, it's either one or other. If Frisk doesn't do Genocide then Chara can be saved. They couldn't be saved any more than you save Azzy.

The best you could do is to get them to stay behind in the underground with Flowey (not officially confirmed, but some believed it to be that way). Other than that, you can't save a dead kid.