Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20171213192752

Before I begin, the following post establishes the fact that determination is not unique to red souls, nor is it ever highlighted in red, and that the only permeating theme for it is "being yourself": http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/153875085963/the-red-soul (furthermore, ignore everything this post said about Chara, it's not relevant)

Now, consider this (I wrote it just a few hours ago, what a coincidence): https://tsskyx.tumblr.com/post/168506609523/the-7-soul-traits-probably-dont-represent-the

Lastly, consider this: http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/141805499420/all-fallen-humans-could-save-and-reload

For this last post, one could argue that what could be interpreted as humans resetting was actually Flowey resetting. However: http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/154174945896/flowey-only-met-two-of-the-fallen-humans

Now, knowing all of this, lemme begin.

It is true that there are two definitions for determination - "perseverance" and "conclusion". And they both fit actually. It's "de-termination" (opposite of termination) and also "determination" (decision) at the same time.

However, everyone has free will, but not everyone has red souls. Unless you're implying that Frisk is the only one with free will and everyone else is fake. Wow, how meta! (I actually did think about this already. You see, there IS something unique about Frisk besides their soul, and that is the fact, that we can control them).

But in all seriousness, the statement that red = free will doesn't work, unless you say that Frisk has a free will, since we're controlling them, and that nobody else has a free will, since they're just a part of the game. That would be the simplest explanation ever, to call everything fake and move onto another game. I've heard Doki Doki Literature Club is good.

ANYWAYS, back to the point. Everyone has free will. Let's just establish that. And with that comes the fact, that red cannot represent a free will, else every human would have had it (unless you say that they got captured while in a different soul mode, but we have no proof of that - let's just assume that all the souls are free of any soul modes).

Now,

"It is true that Alphys extracted Determination from each of the human souls, meaning each human soul would have some amount of "determination", but couldn't the same be true for each of the other soul traits? Each human soul should posess varying amounts of each of these traits, but each individual soul could have an abundance of one trait in particular."

recall what I said in that Tumblr post. That the traits aren't personality traits, but that they rather represent your fighting style. Therefore, there's no mixing involved. Either you shoot yellow bullets, or you jump around like crazy. You cannot combine them. But even if you dismiss this argument (it is pretty weak tbh), there's still the fact, that determination is a physical thing and that there's no proof of the other traits being physical too.

In ALL honesty, if anyone of you absolutely adores the idea of trait mixing, go watch Glitchtale. I've heard it's one of the least canon stories out there xD

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">There would be no possible way that Chara's plot to cross the barrier would have ended in failure, as well as the death of both Chara and Asriel."

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Three explanations: A) Their souls got combined - ergo, a new soul was created. One that was only 50% determined - not enough to reset, apparently. B) the power to reset didn't exist yet. I wouldn't call this one all that far-fetched. C) As  SparkOfTheAbsolute<span style="font-weight:700;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:14px;"> said, time continuity broke when they stepped outside the barrier. We don't know if this power exists outside it, but I'd argue it does not. So... that's that.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:700;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:14px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So why is it that Frisk, who's soul is also red has the ability to save, while Chara could not?"

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Are you really asking this? Don't you think the answer might perhaps be as simple as saying "Frisk is more determined than Chara", hmm? (albeit it being a lazy statement, it could work)

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Flowey was injected with an unnatural amount of determination (possibly as much as 6 human souls worth, give or take)"

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">If that were to be the case, there would be nothing left of those souls in those jars. Less than one full human soul of determination was used for the DT experiments. Else there wouldn't be enough soul power to shatter the barrier. Frankly, DT is the only thing that is making human souls so strong, which is why only 6 of them account for 6/7 of the power needed to break the barrier. Why do I think it's the DT that is making them so strong? Well, it's simple. There's not anything else that would make them so strong that we know of. Abduction method my dear Watson.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Chara has enough determination to assert their will over others to the point of posession (this happens to both Asriel AND Frisk)"

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">AI've never heard of Asriel or Frisk possessing anyone. Did you?

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">"Chara, the RED soul, is the only character that has the ability to possess another living being, which seems to also imbue the possessed with Chara's abundance of determination as well.  <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">As a matter of fact,  it's this same abundance of  determination  that allows Chara to persist, even after death, even after their soul was shattered.<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">"

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Ugh. Brace yourselves. First, their soul shattered. It's gone.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Second, since the narrator being Chara is most likely the correct theory, it means that Chara is always present, but possessive only in the genocide route.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Third, it is implied that Chara joined Frisk as an essence.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> An essence is something that lives on inside a physical thing - for monsters, it is their dust. For example, t <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">he golden flowers in Asgore's garden contained Asriel's dust, and upon Alphys imbuing one of them with determination, Asriel's consciousness was reborn (albeit inside a flower vessel).

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;">So, why do I think that something similar happened to Chara? <span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;">Well, because there's no other way to explain it!

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;">Chara's soul must have shattered (since else someone would have picked it up, not let it travel all the way to the Ruins), meaning, that the only thing that could have persisted is the aforementioned essence. I mean, if it persists for monsters, then why not for humans, amirite?

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;">A <span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">nyways, when  <span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Chara's soul shattered, their essence must have lived on inside their body, which was then transported by Toriel to the place where Frisk would later on fall down, and there, Chara's essence bound itself to Frisk's soul. (It didn't bind to any other soul that got there before Frisk, since as Chara explained in the genocide route, they were confused, until we showed them the purpose of their reincarnation; WE, not someone else.)

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So... yeah, no, Chara's essence doesn't have the ability to possess others, only join them. And since they've lost their soul, they most likely also lost the determination. Unless... you think that the essence naturally carries determination. However, I wouldn't say that. DT seems like a soul thing to me, and without a soul, well...

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So that sums it up. Determination didn't allow Chara to persist, since their soul shattered, ergo, they didn't have any DT left in their essence - which was the only thing that remianed of them (besides their body of course). However, their persistence CAN be explained using the essence theory, just like this theory can explain how Flowey got Asriel's memories.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> " Frisk posessed the determination of two red SOULS <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">(which seems to be even more than what was present in all of the other 6 human souls combined)"

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">What makes you think that Frisk was stronger than 6 human souls? Omega Flowey? No... no... no. Frisk convinced the souls to revolt. They didn't use brute force to defeat Flowey. I thought that was common knowledge by now. Sheesh. It's crazy how little informed people still are.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">From a gameplay standpoint, this could also be the reason why we, the player, are only able to assume control over Frisk & Chara."

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">We never control Chara. Never.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The player controling the player-character could represent the player-character's determination."

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Yeah. That's the crazy meta theory I was speaking of. It could be possible, but... eh. Bleh. Nah.