Thread:Mabian/@comment-4383275-20160827050912/@comment-4383275-20160829081925

Mabian wrote: An important part of this method is knowing what things should look like if the theory as a whole is true. Usually one of the most helpful things we can do is posit something that should be true alongside the theory in question. So without bringing in our knowledge of the rest of the game and its universe, if Sans is indeed Ness, what else should be true about the universe that we can then check and verify.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be prioritizing the formulation of parameters for our debate, which I certainly think are important. In the original forum thread for this discussion, I offered the following parameters to disprove the idea of Sans being Ness:

-If less than three bullet points in the "Evidence for Sans Being Ness" section are not debunked

-If there is no way Ness could have become a revenant

-If Toby Fox (or a similar official source) explicitly states that Sans is not Ness

My "three bullet points" criterion is based on the structure of a form of humorous logical reasoning called the Duck Test: "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." The Duck Test is also the reason I uphold the belief that all these seemingly disconnected bullet points or, as you called them, nods are indeed part of a larger, more cohesive whole: there can only be so much coincidental evidence before it no longer seems all that coincidental.

If a clue can only be understood in light of pre-existing theory, then it is more likely that the clue does not actually exist.

Per my estimation, the Duck Test does not seem to be beholden to this idea.

To genuinely engage in the process of elimination, we need to begin with all the other reasonable possibilities for what the badge could be. Only once we have shown that those possibilities cannot be the badge in the drawer, or at least that the Franklin Badge is significantly more likely, can we legitimately say that we have engaged in the process.

There are two badges in the Mother series: the Franklin Badge and the Courage Badge. Only the former appeared in EarthBound, with the latter appearing in Mother 3, so only the Franklin Badge could be the one in Sans' possession.

None of which still answers the major differences between courage and determination, since they do not appear to operate in any mechanically similar way, aside from the revival. Courage plays no actual role in saving, and since the concept of saving is central to the world of Undertale, this difference is incredibly important. Determination has the following three traits:

-The ability to let its user SAVE at certain points -The ability to revive its user upon death -A physical form

If we consider EarthBound's Flying Men to be the physical form of courage, which their dialogue seems to affirm, that gives us as 66.67% similarity.

I recall this point that you made. On the first part of it, the claim still doesn't get us anywhere. It does allow that Undertale takes place in the Mother universe (a slight crack in the explanation is that ghosts in Undertale are incorporeal, and thus cannot be harmed, meaning that if Toby is indeed working off of the Dust Ghost as a sort of blueprint, then the ghost enemies in the game should be vulnerable as well)

Napstablook is more similar to EarthBound's Tiny Lil' Ghost, which is indeed incorporeal and immune to physical harm.

In other words, it could be the case that Toby intended for Undertale to take place in the Mother Universe, but still be the case that Sans is not Ness.

Who else shares Sans' clothing, stance, grin, and badge? Certainly not Poo or Jeff. Comparing Sans to Ness seems to be the most logical idea.

It still leaves open some holes. For one, staying at one HP is not restricted to the drain from KR. Other attacks that would normally do damage will cease to do damage if the player is at one HP. This seems to indicate otherwise.

If Sans's blood also turned to dust, then what he "bleeds" is indeed ketchup Or it could simply be blood that had turned to dust and flowed like a red, sand-like substance, not unlike this

Sans physically moves at the end of his fight, but the reason for that is to provide some indication that something about him is changing. Au contraire, Sans moves throughout his fight. Papyrus does not.

That still, however, leaves open the question of acquiring a monster soul. In some of their appearances in fiction, revenants consumed the souls of others, and Sans is shown to be a bit of a glutton. It's also worth mentioning that he's the only main character who doesn't have a SOUL Mode of his own, switching between Chara/Frisk's red and Papyrus' blue. I'm not sure what that coloration indicates, but evidence seems to point to the idea of Sans gaining his monster soul through consumption.

If Papyrus is a Starman, then that problem goes back to the issue of why A) Ness would be traveling back with a Starman, B) why Ness and a Starman would partner up, and C) why a Starman would turn into a skeleton. Given that Sans specifically says that "battle body" was made for a costume party "a few weeks ago," the idea that Papyrus is actually a Starman doesn't make much sense. The question of Papyrus' identity and origin seems worthy of a theory unto itself, and I plan to come back to it in the near future.

As ever, I thank you for your time and would be happy to clarify any obfuscated ideas that I've presented.