Board Thread:Wiki Discussion/@comment-39447774-20190514202810/@comment-39447774-20190621134459

MagomaevaAmina wrote: "No, it comes after. You press the button, and then he begins saying that." He was still fighting to keep Chats around because he cares for him before being saved

"Whom is he condemning, and where?"

Idk,maybe frisks friends to be in him forever?the world?"the whole world is ending ",frisk to do the same thing over and over?

"Because no human has ever lost the ability to feel, just like that. This isn't Undertale, silly."

Sorry but who were the one who said that flowery couldn't kill himself if he could feel joy,so I showed you that people can kill themselves although they feel joy

"And explicitly stated to be independent of what he lost."

I can personally be sad when I fail to achieve anything or when people mock me or lower my self esteem,I can feel joy while watching comedies,all those emotions are independent from love as well.Sure for some people love is their meaning to live,the only thing that bring them joy but you don't HAVE to feel love to feel joy.Or if its required give me some proofs or studies that shows its the case because your argument is low yet

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" Ergo, Flowey cannot feel grief, else he would have to be able to feel love too. The two, grief and love, are two sides of the same coin."

I AGREE that grief is related to love since its caused by a death of someone but sadness is different as it can be caused by different things.And i wasnt talkibg about grief at all i said that the way he says that he killed himself because he couldnt feel love sounds more like sadness than anger.And in fact NO ONE kill themself because if anger.

"So you DO agree that he lost some of the negative emotions too, not just the positive ones?"

No he didnt,its just that he feel more guilty about what heve done to others when he regains his compassion not that he cant feel guilt without a soul

"That's due to his own sense of integrity, his own compassion. Again, I'll explain below."

Feeling sorry THATS guilt

"People in real life usually don't lack the ability to physically feel love and everything associated with it."

Then wheres the causal link between the ability to feel love and joy if people can be happy with other stuff than love others?Ask psycopaths who arent capable to feel love if they can feel joy ,then you will find out that you re wrong.

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"Why do you keep comparing Undertale to the real life? I'm just stating my observations about Undertale and arguing for a few things that the canon did not mention, since it logically follows. "

Would you keep using your own definitions of feelings just to make your argulent valid?

"Such as, that if Flowey lost the ability to feel love, he also must have lost the ability to feel grief, but also many other positive emotions, not just love. It's pure logic, not rocket science."

Thats everything but logic as love is independant from joy and sadness(not grief since its related to love)and can come from different things besides love.

"But he doesn't. He feels entertained by it, that's different."

Jesus fucking christ,STOP IT .Thats exactly the SAME THING.You CANT be entertained or enjoy pain saying its "funny"if you cant feel joy,joy is enjoyment and flowey shows it many times in the game.Even the oxford dictionary describes entainement as "1The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment".So you ARE creating your own definitions that arent endorced by anything just to make your point valid.

". He didn't enjoy this period at all, and the longer it went on, the more he loathed it. So no, strictly speaking, he didn't enjoy it at all. He even said that spending weeks with Asgore was a waste of time. He HOPED, but hope =/= joy."

Sorry but i have no reason to not trust his OWN words" Their compansionship was AMUSING for a while".He says OUTLOUD that it was AMUSING even though for a while,meaning that he CAN feel joy.

"Do you now see how monumentally wrong you are about everything? You don't seem to understand anything about Flowey."

Because you do??When you ignores what he says himself?When he became suicadal??At least iam not ignoring all the instances where he shows other feelings than anger or fear.And you didnt give any evidences that he cant feel joy or sadness just gave biased interpretions in the instances where he seems to show it.So instead of contradicting my points,why wouldnt you provide your own arguments?

"That said however, losing all means of experiencing joy is, at least in my humble opinion, a totally valid reason to commit a suicide, although it has never happened, because it cannot physically happen, as we don't have souls, we don't live in Undertale."

He killed himself because he couldnt love his own parents,not just because he couldnt feel love.Thats also likely that i would behave the same manner although i can feel joy.And people DONT KILL themselves because they dont feel hapiness ,they kill themselves because they are sad and depressed.

"You seem to be very good at generalizing statements. When I say one thing about something, you immediately think that this is my stance on all things related too. No, it isn't. It cannot possibly be, because I'm not some bozo who knows nothing about psychology."

And youre pretty good at creating biased definitions to make your points valid but that arent stated anywhere

"That means he's entertained by it. It does not have to mean that he finds self-fulfillment in it, like he did with love."

AGAIN JOY IS REQUIRED TO BE ENTERTAINED STOP TO CREATE YOUR OWN DEFINITIONS,IF HE SAYS THAT HE SEE YOUR PAIN AS SMT FUNNY THAN THAT MEANS HE ENJOY IT THAT HE FEEL JOY

"Because the game has explicitly shown how those are different from the other emotions."

"Ultimately, I argue that he has lost his ability to feel true physical joy that love brings and everything associated with it, which includes things mildly related to joy and love, but also the direct opposites that result from the lack of thereof, such as grief. Everything else stayed."

What do you mean by "true joy"if its "strong joy",than i agree that he need his ability to feel love but other things can bring him joy aswell even though its on different degree

"My argument is my proof. If he can feel grief, then he can feel love. Ergo, his emotions must be the result of frustration, not grief. As I said, it's logic, not rocket science."

Grief#Sadness,Grief is caused by tbe death of someone while sadness alone can be caused by many things.

"Compassion, as said, is sympathy, combined with the desire to help. In other words, it is about: recognizing distress and attempting to resolve it. It can be summarized as "is there anything I can do to help you?", and the keyword is "help"."

"Compassion: "a strong feeling of sympathy and sadness for the suffering or bad luck of others and a wish to help them"

Compassiong is a result of empathy,the sadness you experience for others pain and wish to help.Flowey never show any sadness when someone suffer.

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"What is your definition of joy then?"

Iam not a philosopher but i now its related with pleasure.

"I am trying to describe that one feeling that is the result of a high serotonin and dopamine rush that many regard to be joy. Love produces this feeling. Love without this feeling is just plain old compassion. When Asriel lost this feeling, when he lost joy, he was no longer able to be empathetic, but he could still transform his efforts into compassion"

Dont talk about dopamine because Flowey is a freaking FLOWER that doesnt have any brain and thats Undertale where magic,time travel powers exist.

"The point is, that he lost what mediated love, he lost joy. Many other things produce joy too. So he must have lost those as well. If he found such an incredible fulfillment in love, or rather in joy, in the FEELING that love brings, then he could have simply found ANYTHING ELSE that could give him joy instead, in order to get back that feeling. I mean, love without joy is basically... nothing, just empty words."

Undertale#Real life and Flowey is a FREAKING FLOWER ,he doenst have any brain so nor dopamine.If youre tryibg to apply real life science in Undertale then try to explain me how hes consious while he doenst any brain in first place lolBold text Asriel isn't a good person: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAA9puWt2wE