Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20171226170632

Rafip wrote: It's the only type of an obstacle where soul modes/traits are involved. The point is I always perceived those "traits" as emotions/emotional states that are shaping attitude and behavior, like kindness that means being kind to others. After all, all those humans have choice to make Genocide or to stay Pacifist, they can choose between [Fight] or [Mercy], between [Erase] or [Do Not]. To overcome these obstacles is required something more than "fighting styles" represented by Soul Modes. But this is my way of thinking. ''Also, that line that Flowey muttered, it doesn't prove that Frisk was more determined than the other humans. It only proves that they're more determined than Flowey.'' That's what I have said: Frisk is remarkably Determined - Your DETERMINATION! Somehow, it's even greater than mine! Not only those related, it lists all possible ones. I can agree with that. It makes things easier. Also, there are no mentions about any other traits anyway. ''I know that there's no mention of a human essence existing. However, it is the only way to explain Chara.'' Are you sure about using unproved argumentation to explain things, because I'm not. it begins only after the first kill I have to disagree. Genocide starts much earlier than you think. It starts with a thought - decision to kill is always first while the act of killing takes place after it.

But it WOULD be able to absorb an essence, as nothing is saying it wouldn't. Everything which is not forbidden is allowed. That's a pretty thing. May use it as well?

''Chara's soul couldn't have survived, because Frisk's soul wouldn't be able to absorb it, since there's a condition if you remember, that a human cannot absorb a human soul. But it WOULD be able to absorb an essence, as nothing is saying it wouldn't.'' I know. Since "human essence" concept is unsubstantiated and has no basis in the game (even you're admitting it: I know that there's no mention of a human essence existing), the survival of Chara's Soul supported by its nature described by the game (Its power allows it to persist outside the human body) is the only reasonable explanation. In addition, it proves that Frisk having Chara's Soul obviously cannot be human: a human cannot absorb a human SOUL - Entry #7. To sum up: we have not only canoncal explanation what have happiend to Chara, but also consistent with canon conclusion that Frisk isn't a human as a bonus.

Chara was with us all the time as they say: "That feeling, that's me" - they've been with us all the time, so they must have also been with us without their soul. That's correct. They have been with Us all the time - ''Greetings. I am [Playername]''.

If Chara's soul survived, Asgore would have utilized it. Since Chara's Soul survival is proper explanation compatible with canon, monsters should find that Soul in the castle, where Asriel died. However, they somehow didn't. That's one preety plot hole. The hole people will try to cover with unproven concept of "human essence", because canon doesn't describe how Chara ended with Frisk and offer anything else but Soul's nature to figure it out.

''Do you know why I'm being so rude? (...) I've been digging into this, engaging in discussions for quite some time now, and debating whether Chara's soul...'' Maybe you should take a break? It is only a game.

''I am baffled by your lack of knowledge of the lore... All I'm saying, is that the proof of human essences existing is there, in the game... I know that there's no mention of a human essence existing.'' "The point is I always perceived those "traits" as emotions/emotional states that are shaping attitude and behavior" 

I first did too, I think we all did. But then I began to realize some of the flaws this theory has. I'm not denying that those humans might have had those personalities, that's entirely possible. But it simply cannot be what their souls represent.

''"Are you sure about using unproved argumentation to explain things, because I'm not." ''

It hasn't been ruled out as a possibility yet. So I'm taking it, as it also is the best and most consistent explanation we've got. Do you have anything better?

''" I have to disagree. Genocide starts much earlier than you think. It starts with a thought - decision to kill is always first while the act of killing takes place after it." ''

Well yeah, but I don't think that a mere thought awoken Chara. You're making it seem like they're some sort of a murder-thirsty demon or something when you phrase it like that. The point is, their essence was awakened by Frisk's soul, and it joined it. So during their journey, Frisk had another passanger within their soul so to speak.

''"That's a pretty thing. May use it as well?" ''

<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Prove me wrong on this first. Besides, this explanation is consistent with the lore. So it's not completely baseless. Also, just because there's no mention of something existing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The evidence is suggesting its existence.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">In addition, it proves that Frisk having Chara's Soul obviously cannot be human" 

<p style="font-weight:400;">This is why Occam's razor exists, people. From the two possible approaches, you've chosen to ignore the one that is "unsubstantiated" and went for the most absurd one instead. Funny. I'll stick to the canonical fact that both Chara and Frisk are humans, thank you. You can keep believing that Frisk is Bete Noire, I don't care. It is not in my power to educate idiots. After all, I already did test my powers on Flat Earthers. I bet you aren't any different from them, you'll just keep saying that I have no proof for my theory and reinforce your beliefs that much more.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The hole people will try to cover with unproven concept of "human essence", because canon doesn't describe how Chara ended with Frisk and offer anything else but Soul's nature to figure it out." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">It's a plot hole only if you refuse to accept all the explanations we give you. And saying we're trying to "cover it up" is actually fitting. We ARE trying to cover the hole (with theories) so that it disappears. That's what theorists do. If you think there's some conspiracy going on here, then please, write a blog post about it. You'll be the first one. The generally accepted theory states that Chara's soul shattered. After all, when Omega Flowey lost his battle, those human souls also disappeared for some reason, suggesting that absorbing them makes them fragile and can even lead to them shattering.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The simple fact is, that the soul should have been found in the garden by the king and the queen, and that it should have been utilized. The fact that it's not present when we reach Asgore suggests that it either shattered, or it was stolen. If it makes you feel better about your own speculations, the generator in the True Lab has the shape of a red heart. Some people speculated that that is Chara's soul. That would however contradict the narrator Chara theory, which is pretty much confirmed at this point. So if anyone stole it, they must have then returned it to Chara's grave, meaning that they had an access to the Ruins. I unfortunately don't know of anyone who can phase through walls, be able to carry souls and also be alive for when Asriel and Chara died. Maybe Napstablook or his cousin (Mettaton), but I can't imagine why would any of them be there or why would they attempt to take the soul for themselves. They wouldn't dare. And also, the game kinda suggests that these two don't have their own souls. Anyways, that theory went nowhere. The only other remaining explanation is that it was Toriel herself. However, I see no motive here. She would have to hide the soul right there right now so that Asgore wouldn't notice it, suggesting that she knew he was a bad person, which doesn't fit his personality at all. Toriel wouldn't be able to hide Chara's soul from Asgore. By the method of elimination, the only remaining possibility is that Chara's soul shattered, along with Asriel's.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I mean, it's not that weird either. They were dead already, maybe the soul was already too weak to continue persisting. Maybe it LITERALLY fused with Asriel's soul, suggesting that a new one was created instead, so when it shattered, both of its components shattered simultaneously. I mean, what do you think happens when a soul absorbs a soul? That literally implies they have fused together. This is on the contrary to Flowey, who didn't have his own soul, so when he absorbed the 6, he didn't "fuse" with them - as there was nothing they could fuse with; so he merely only absorbed them. But that's just a fancy headcanon of mine to explain why things have happened the way they happened. The point is, that it is entirely possible for a human soul to break. We've seen it multiple times. Frisk's soul breaks, the 6 human souls disappear (they didn't disappear past the barrier, Flowey didn't have a monster soul to venture past it), and at the end of the game, the souls are gone too (although here, the human bodies are gone too, so who knows what really happened).

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Maybe you should take a break? It is only a game." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> It's my hobby. I'm not stopping anytime soon. Besides, I have my own fanfiction that I have to tend to which I want to be as canon and non-contradictive as possible. These discussions help me filter out bad headcanons from my head and also educate other people on the good ones. I mean, you're already here, you came here to read about traits and whatnot. For sure you want to reach some conclusion. All I'm trying to do here is to pull you out of the dead end that is assuming that Frisk isn't a human. Besides, if anyone here should take a break, it is TheHumanAmbassador. He's capable of writing a 1000 word essay within one hour just to keep arguing. I often have to take week long breaks. I haven't even replied to him yet actually.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Also, don't confuse proof with mention. The concept of a human essence is indeed never mentioned in the game, but the proof that it must exist is there. Because saying that Frisk is not human is absurd. That's like saying the Earth is flat. Coincidentally, the concepts that people propose to explain how could a flat Earth work are not all that nonsensical. So in the end it all boils down to what you want to believe - both concepts work, it's just a matter of perspective. However, the Earth being round is a more convincing explanation. As for Undertale, the same applies. Frisk being a human is simply more convincing.