Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180706013340

"What kind of a trait do you have in mind? It's a psychological trait, it is a magical trait too, but not a measurable one. In this case, a magical trait is the "flavor" of a human soul, and a human soul can only have one flavor. There is no proof that "flavor" mixing is involved here."

..So, if that's the case, that would mean the magical traits would appear as a substance AFTER the one SOUL trait was determined. I do believe the MODES don't mix, but that's self-explanatory, and I see no reason why anyone would believe they can mix. (But mode-mixing HAS been utilized in fan-fights anyway.. Oh, the fandom..)

"FYI, I didn't mean court order or anything like that. I don't think wanting this to be fixed counts under the justice trait: http://d1xgwawrm1fpry.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ocd-pavement-e1439886249695.jpg"

Just like you can expand some of the other traits based on chains, you can do the same here. Now, to extend the table a bit.

- patience, unexpectedness - bravery, impetuosness, fierce - integrity, originality, creativity - perseverance, taking notes (questionable, but alright), learning, strategizing - kindness, care, compassion - justice, accuracy, order - ??? (Combines the previous six)

Here, any concept that ties to one of these (e.g. patience → observation → learning) belongs to that concept. You are allowed to use these chains to expand the definition of these, so that this 7-system can cover all N cases.

"I mean, HAVE you read something about chakras? Not the babble about how they connect to our bodies, and which moonstones they rule, that's nonsense."

That's actually what I think of when I think of the nonsense that is chakras.

"I meant the psychological part of it. Red IS defined as the sum of all the previous traits, because it's a cycle. It's all of them, while being nothing on its own."

What about the first time around?

The only thing it is sure of however, is its own existence, it is the "root". Then comes orange, and suddenly, it is given a definition. All the higher chakras are given an unambiguous definition, except for the root chakra, because it's transitional. I mean, you are probably going to find precise definitions on the internet for all 7 of these, but what we care about here, is combining it with the UT lore. So, after the new cycle begins, red is born out of the sum of the previous traits, and gains nothing new on its own. But the subsequent chakras do. Here, this is what I'm mainly referring to (it doesn't speak of the cycles the same way I do, but you'll get the point):"

Survival is red, eh? Hm, what do we know about that has to do with surviving, the will to live? OH WAIT. (Determination)

"That was not in the name. That was the trait's description. I simply tried to come up with an explanation for it that wouldn't collide with an extension of the patience trait. It is learning, yes, but with only one goal in mind. So that you would pass whatever you're trying to pass."

Yep, that's about the kind of learning perserveance is about. You took notes.. To win, as you felt trapped.

"Patience is not necessarily about that, it's not about anything mandatory for your existence or well-being. I mean, IS perseverance just patience in disguise? Is bravery just an inverted patience (due to its in-game mechanics)? I don't think so."

Neither do I. Hence why I didn't consider patience as learning at all, because that would make it just perservearance. And the mechanics of moving and not moving doesn't make them inverted versions of each other-The inverted bravery is fear. But, really, that's a lack of bravery, it need not be its own trait.

"The Maslow hiearchy of human needs is partially based on chakras, with the first level being original, the second being based on the root, the third on the sacral point, the fourth on solar plexus, and the last one on the sum of the throat, third eye and crown chakras."

If the root is survival, technically, the first two levels could fit in there.

"There's nothing stemming from the heart chakra here, in this much more practical system. So I had to do some more digging. Why did the vedas differentiate between these two? ... In essence, when an emotion comes closer to sexuality, it is sacral, and when it comes closer to social skills, it is the heart. One is expressing, the other is giving."

Somewhat makes sense-The former is closer to nature, for survival of the species, while the latter is purely social, and thus further away. It was grouped in with the first level of the heiarchy.

"Actually, there is some degree of truth to it. After all, I did mention Maslow's hiearchy of needs, which, while not being without criticism, is still widely taught, and is scarily similar to the chakras concept. But that's as much as I'm willing to believe when it comes to chakras. The rest is bs."

Looks like we have an agreement there.

"The progress is non-additive, the traits are being added in spontaneously as you ascend. The only time you add, it is during the purple-red transition, which bumps you up to the next cycle."

The main hole I'm talking about here is the start of cycle 1. Though, perhaps, maybe, just maybe, the start of cycle 1 is actually where the SECOND red flag comes into play.

"I mean, you don't LOSE the stuff you've previously acquired. But with red, it's only defining quality is the fact, that it's a sum."

During cycle 1, a sum of nothing.

"It doesn't gain anything new on its own, because it ISN'T anything on its own. It's just "being yourself" - Literally? Nothing. Figuratively? Eh... god knows what."

So how can one even start their first cycle?

"Spirituality. It doesn't have to be anything religious, just, otherworldly, transcendental. After all, that's how you transcend to the next cycle, by understanding the underlying philosophy of the previous cycle, and that's often to ask the deepest of questions. That's also the source of the perseverance power - nothing physical, to be concrete."

Oh, PHILOSPOHY! Yes, that works, and can also fit purple pretty well, if we take the whole mental note thing into consideration.

"and how does one know when to strike? Is it not about observing and or preparation as well?"

True, there's observation, but one doesn't take note of what they've seen so far. They observe to see if one's guard is down, and then, when the oppertunity arises, strikes the foe. Purple, on the other hand, takes note of what happened so far, to come up with a strategy.

"I mean, if that's what it takes to survive, sure. It is one of many aspects of perseverance. Other times, you may need to LISTEN for signals, or perhaps utilize math to analyze the situation in order to predict it. So, to broaden it, it's about taking mental notes, it's about PRECOGNITION."

I said mental notes before. But precognition? Well, I suppose, since knowing what comes next WILL help your strategy out, and strategizing is the only real reason why one would need to take mental notes in the first place. In fact, I'll go ahead and add that to the chart. ...You already saw it on the chart before though, didn't you?

"Then it is possible that they put that line in just because of Muffet's attacks. Maybe she's the only monster with purple attacks currently alive, who knows. Also, such would imply that the ball game is not to be trusted. Maybe, this is yet another false flag that Toby planted in. So... in such case, why are we even discussing it?"

The monsters created the game, as a sort of personality test. It's designed to tell you your trait, depending on how you play the game, by determining what trait best fits your playstyle. Since the traits fit their meanings quite well, and don't contradict evidence within the game, there's no reason to doubt the game. Unlike the plaques, the monsters have no reason to lie about this. What do they gain from this? There's no reason to assume a conspiracy when there isn't even a motive for it, and there's no grounds for suspicion. We're not like those who actually believe the moon landing was fake. They've also encountered humans of all the traits-They would have a feel for how the traits operated from these experiences.

"It's been 3 years. We've got nothing better at this point. Nothing. Nill. Zilch. People analyzed and probed this game from all kinds of scientific, meta and psychological points of view. You're not the first one tapping this topic (nor the last one, unfortunately). The only direction we can go on from here, is outwards. To broaden the scope of our theories, and start discussing new possibilities."

We really have no reason to add to the traits, though. They are what the game says they are.

"I mean, he did do some patching work, such as the explanation Toriel gave for why Asgore chose not to go out with the first collected soul, but the story he created was nowhere as complex as let's say the Lord of the Rings lore. And most of that time he spent actually PROGRAMMING the game, you know. Or working on the music for that matter. In retrospect, Undertale is a game about shattering the 4th wall and putting a spin on the classic gaming tropes. That's what Toby was aiming for."

The 4th wall shattering wouldn't take that long. And wait, I thought we WEREN'T supposed to go meta? If the game was inherintly supposed to shatter the wall, tell we, why CAN'T we call the HUD canon?

"Listen, I don't know what you keep looking for, but you're not gonna find it. There's nothing more to the lore than this. The beta testers didn't ask the questions that we do, they didn't question whether for example Gerson wrote those books in Snowdin or not, they've had better things to focus on. And nor did they datamine the game."

Simply a grand theory that explains the mechanics of the game, and all the central focal points of the game. I don't need an exact detail of bravery's life, or even the order the humans fell. What I need are the answers to the main questions the games raise. Why did Chara come back to life? (Answered) What is the narrator? (Answered) Where did Sans and Papyrus actually come from? (Brought up by Snowdin Bunny) What was Gaster's "own creation"? What is the basic structure of Undertale's world? And what was Chara's motivations?

"And I have no idea where you got the idea that some beta tester played the game literally hundreds of times to fact-check literally everything in it from. Like, proof please?"

Didn't MysteriousMalice say the exact same thing about that tester before? Go look at his post on this thread. Hey Malice, where's the proof of that beta tester?

By the way, both of our claims about Toby are equally valid. Because our knolwedge of Toby's motivations are zero. Zlich. Nada.

"In essence, it is Toby's fault. He's the type of person who would rather put glass tiles below a sprite that went out of their bounds, rather than to fix the behavior of the sprite to begin with."

Which became a somewhat plot point with So Sorry. It seems to be something the monsters make.

"Or to outright contradict himself at a KEY POINT in the game, where we're supposed to leave the underground and yet, we have no monster soul, plus, the barrier is still not shattered. Two barriers? Please. Just because you came up with it doesn't make it confirmed canon. You're not Toby."

I didn't say two barriers. I pointed out how the invisible wall can't be the Barrier at all, because anything can go through the Barrier, and there is no glow. Really, I'm saying the Barrier is somewhere between the end door and the Surface.

"The true story is what the game confirms. Everything else is but speculations. The nature of the red soul? The author of the first 8 lab entries? The cause of the war? Chara's personality? The TIMELINE itself? The SLR ability/the meta aspect of the game? The fandom is still torn on these key points even 3 years after the game's release. You may be right in everything, but you may also be equally likely wrong in everything. It is CLEAR AS DAY that there is no, and that there will never BE any correct answer. Not until Toby starts barking again."

Not being findable doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

"Saying your theory is the only correct one is literally an offense to the entire fandom."

I just said there's only one correct theory, and theories with holes are wrong. If there's a hole in my theories, they're wrong! And I only said that after you went on and said "well, there's always going to be holes, we have to accept that!" We should all be striving for a theory without holes. THAT is my point. For all I know there's a hole in one of my theories that just hasn't been pointed out yet, and when it is found, I'll fix it. You should do the same. You need not convert to my theory, but make an effort to fix the holes! THAT is the important part!

"Well apparently, you do? So pick and choose, I guess."

Oh, I've changed my stance on that. Yes, you do. That's alao the reason why perserverance has a definition that seems to fit in with determination, by the way. And by interpreting "care and concern" in the passion sense, we get a trait that works far better with Undyhe, and we get passion, a core part of determination, and could help explain why a green SOUL is possible in Genocide.

"Justice is not order. It has nothing to do with arrangement, calmness, harmony, order, peace or tidiness, it is a proactive truth seeking and accuracy. And for that, you need a certain degree of balls."

Finding the truth? No. Perservearance is arguably closer. SPEAKING the truth? Yeah, you do need some bravery. But surefire accuracy, putting an end to mayhem, is simply being orderly and accurate, to end chaos.

"As for integrity, the concept of morality also ties to that one, as evidenced by Sans speaking so of Toriel (I mean, the way he put it showed the near synonymity of those two words)"

His definition of integrity is laughing at bad jokes, if we take that as definitive. Bad jokes is a big quirk of Sans-He'd clearly be biased here.

"Finally, patience is certainly not only about waiting. That would make it a direct inverse of bravery, if its only definition was how you gotta act during cyan attacks."

It's not acting during cyan attacks, it's waiting for the perfect oppertunity. The direct inverse of bravery is fear. More than likely running away from battle.

"However, even then, you cannot omit the fact that if perseverance is defined under taking notes"", then patience is DEFINITELY involved with it. Unless you'd like to back down on your own claims and say, that taking mental notes is NOT what defines perseverance? Because observing, taking notes, all of that is a completely natural extension of patience."

Observing, possibly yes. But, taking notes? You're waiting for one specific thing:The enemy to not suspect an attack. There's no need to take notes on what they have done, you just have to see whether or not their guard is up. If it's down, that's your chance. It's that simple.

"Unlike for example integrity being tied to originality - that one isn't as straightforward as this example."

That tie-in was because of the blue flag.

"How do you exert justice? When you have evidence? When you have witnesses? When you have indirect evidence? When you have circumstantial evidence? When you've got no evidence at all?"

Direct evidence. Witnesses can be lying, after all.

"what reveals the truth in the worst case scenario? ... God? Time travel? We can get more down-to-Earth than that. The essence, the thing that stores a person's memories, works beautifully."

Memories can be altered, though. It naturally happens. One of the main reasons why testimony isn't good evidence-Even if the witness isn't a liar, they're still likely getting details wrong.

"Could have been a metaphor too. For example, it could have been about taking the fun out of the situation, since you were having fun playing that game, weren't you?"

Calling the fun "mayhem" doesn't really work, though.

"I mean, they would have died anyways. And that would have been a waste of a human soul. And besides, such would be pardonable. The monsters deserved freedom. And there was no other way to make them free. Letting God decide is better than picking out the humans yourself."

Picking out the humans that fell isn't "letting God decide". Now, considering the HUD, SAVE power, and so on, the world of Undertale likely does indeed have a god, but not like this!

"And yet, they don't fight themselves this way...? What exactly makes humans so special that they bend the laws of the reality itself?"

...Determination? The fact monsters can absorb human SOULs and not monster SOULs might be extended, into saying monsters can only influence human SOULs into this battle mode? Humans' attacks work differently, and therefore aren't bound to the same kind of dodging? Remember, that slash is from the HUD, and likely isn't visible to monsters. Sans knows, because he knows when your SOUL selected FIGHT, and noticed the notion of pressing Z to slice.

"Point taken. Still, I see no HUD of his."

My World-LV9999

"In this case, yes. It's right in the area that's all about colors. It's a correlation. And it could be the causation as well."

We have a completely different correlation that's canon, though! Also, the correlation is only on the flags themselves. To extend it to all references to the game is a stretch of its own.

"I think you can work that one out on your own."

I haven't-My argument is there is no solution. But how about I adress the "solution" you're probably thinking of:That the game was around when Chara first fell? It's the most reasonable one I could think of while trying to argue on your side here. After all, if it was around when Chara was alive, Chara could have played the game then, and recalled it after their reincarnation. Considering that monsters had VHS tapes during this time, their technology level was comparable to the 1990's-So the idea of mechanical flags wouldn't be that far-fetched:Especially when we consider that this is its only job, and only 7/8 flags exist. We can just say there exists eight thin slots, and a mechanism to rise them, determined by a simple computational program-Time, a wall counter, and the size of the ball (detectable by weight) The green flag is raised in the case the none of the other flags would be raised. So, it seems like a very reasonable possibility. But.. then the flags wouldn't make sense. No problems exist from a technological standpoint, but there are problems from a knolwedge on traits. Undyne wasn't a warrior at the time, Sans and Papyrus likely weren't born yet, Mettaton wasn't created yet, and none of the humans fell to demonstrate their traits. The solution to how they know the traits no longer exists, and thus, they couldn't have made the game. The latest point before then where they could have met humans would be the war itself, which happened around the Middle Ages level of technology:Before the Scientific Revolution was a thing. The monsters couldn't have been any better, because they were united, and would have helped the humans before the war.

Wait, the Vedas was around far earlier.. Hinduism would be the basis for physcology of traits. Therefore.. The most likely assumption would be to link the traits with chakras!

...You know. We might be onto something here. Let's continue this line of reasoning and see where it takes us.

"First person emphasis, whole sentences, LV 19. None is true for the "HOLE"."

It's not true for Toriel's case either. This is likely similar to Toriel's case.

"After we're dead of course. He said it himself, he needs to get rid of us first."

Yeah.. But.. Why? And why didn't he have to as Omega Flowey? From a Frisk power perspective, it's quite obvious-If Frisk dies for good, he's the next in line. "Will you kill out of frustration, or give up entirely on this world, and let ME inherit the power to control it?"-Flowey

"He wanted us to die for good though. Just like Dormamu in Doctor Strange. And he got frustrated quite hard."

True, and true. I said we'd be doing CLOSER to what he wanted. Exact words. Unlike in your cases, in my theories, these small details are actually important. Feel free to look for holes in them. Remember, though, he was frustrated because we didn't die at all. If he kills us over and over again, however, he'll probably just keep making us start over, expecting us to give up. It'd be the Omega Flowey fight all over again.