Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20170925142542

1)Alright, good-We agree he had the SOULs when he destroyed the barrier. Well, when he destroyed the barrier, he used the SOUL magic from those SOULs-Not his own-The SOULs had moved outside of his body, and therefore the only "SOUL magic" he could have used is the magic still inside of them-Not the SOUL magic that he already had gained during the Asriel fight.

He gave away the SOULs, but not the SOUL magic that he got from them during the fight-That's why he still has some "power" of the SOULs remaining-But he only has 7 SOULs worth of SOUL magic, and it can be used up-It doesn't regenerate for him anymore-There's no SOUL power to generate SOUL magic-Asriel gave that away with the SOULs!

Also, the Asriel we see is Phase 1 Hyperdeath, only a FRACTION of Asriel's true power when he has 7 SOULs:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5VWRvSS0zSzRIRjQ

So it's not as powerful, nor magic-draining as what seven SOULs can actually get you-Phase 2 Hyperdeath.

And since Phase 1 Hyperdeath has infinite health, that means that since we're seeing Phase 1 Hyperdeath, Asriel does indeed have infinite health. So, I stand by the statement that this IS his health. The white "attacks" do not harm us because they aren't even attacks-They're more similar to Naptablook's "Not really feelin' up to it right now. Sorry." "attack"-They don't actually harm you. Instead, touching them merely turns them yellow. You don't have to accept the "he's tampering with the HUD" answer-That's not the one I'm accepting either-The fact that this is Hyperdeath Asriel is evidence enough that he really does have infinite health-The HUD bar only reinforces that fact.

Your last point, about Special Thanks, however, is a good one-In fact, it proves that either Undertale is canonically a fictional story (game, movie, perhaps the same play/act as Hard Mode), or the Special Thanks is non-canon-And even if we take the former to be true, that still makes the latter one true by deduction-If this is canonically the special thanks of the act that is Undertale, it's not a part of the story (especially considering that Asriel wouldn't know all these human names of 2015, unless he's played Undertale himself... And got to the Special Thanks.. But Undertale existing within Undertale just raises quite a lot of problems, and doesn't really solve anything (For that game would contain yet another Undertale, and so on.. And if Asriel did play "Undertale", then when? If it was before the events of the game, why didn't he see his downfall coming as Omega Flowey, or as Asriel, and how did he play that game from the Underground? If it was after they reached the Surface... Why was nobody aware of Asriel getting the game? He'd need to buy a computer, and get a Steam account.. Some fan of Undertale would probably tell Toriel that Asriel's on the Surface.. So why isn't that reflected in the actual scene, or when he returns to Flowey? Yeah, let's not get into that mess. I don't think I even went through half the problems of Undertale existing within Undertale being a solution to this.)

However, the scene where Frisk finally opens the Mystery Door, however, does not break canon like this. In the meta-canon, this would be the stinger.

2)It doesn't need to be "foreshadowing." The narrator would only consider this as foreshadowing if the objects of the room representing things happening in the future, relative to the game world. This is Toby from whatever year the game takes place in. Since it's not the future from the game world's perspective, it's not mentioned in the future tense, or as "clues".

As for "jokes".. I know what a joke is, and acknowledge that Toby uses them.. But that these jokes are also canon if they occur within the game. Toby has made joking tweets before, and Papyrus' name is clearly a joke about the font (So is his font Papyrus). "Mr Dad Guy" is a pun on "Mr. Bad Guy", since that's who Asgore was made out to be the entire game-A "bad" guy. But that does not invalidate it from being canon-Should we be looking for Papyrus' "real" name?

Really, jokes in Undertale are quite similar to references-And Toby once tweeted his stance on references.

"In general think references are OK as long as the material stands on its own without knowledge of the source material"-Toby Fox, 2015. (You can look up the quote yourself in case you think I made that up. Nochocolate also uses that quote as well- http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/135990645365/what-was-chara-laughing-at)

So if this was a reference to Toby fixing glitches, it still needs to stand on its own without knowledge of the source material-And that would include Toby being the reason behind most bad internet posts. (That's something that wasn't true in 2015.)

3)How clever, you noticed I was using the principal of Moore's Law. Indeed, I actually used the law itself here. And here's the thing-Yes, there is a point that the AI will achieve its maximum efficiency-Becoming perfect- That will happen at a point very close to the point of singularity. However, they will exceed us all in every skill, and quite vastly as well. And if they're better than humans in every way possible, then they can replace humans in all the jobs. Even the AI designers won't need to do any work, as the AI will be making its own successor.

"If they wanted to make music, they could just buy a good AI and do some heavy marketing to push those songs out."

This was actually my argument that this scene did not happen in the 22nd century, because if it did, they would do just that-Otherwise, the music wouldn't have gotten this many listeners, when AI has far better music. My explanation is simple-It happened in the 2020's, and AI does not exist at that point.

"No matter what happens, non-artificial beings will always be more impressive and more entertaining, simply because they're "worse" at everything. So reaching the same results will count as more impressive in their case."

Now there's a great one. In fact, after doing my research, I found that AI has already overtaken humans in chess, and yet-They're not getting the praise-Bobby Fisher is still getting more praise. So perhaps this is what happened-In which case the scene happening in the 22nd century isn't too far-fetched after all-And since it's a scene we can both agree on, and a quite simple one, I'll be using that date from now on.

"And people would not want to look up to some AI, they would want to look up to real people, real beings, thinking they can do the same if they just try."

Here's something I'm going to clarify-Actually, I do not believe they will look up to be like the AI-They know they can't match the AI. Instead, they'll probably just do nothing, and let the AI do all the work for them. They'll become lazy like Sans, but not because they think things are hopeless, and they can't stop a problem, but rather because they know the AI will take care of the problem anyway, and much better than they ever could, so they can just, well.. do nothing. But, they probably will try doing some things to pass the time, which takes us back to the previous paragraph-Indeed, 22nd century isn't that far-fetched after all, it seems.

4)"It seems like multiple people wrote the plaques, not just one. Since this is a contradiction so obvious that not even a monster would make it. Yes, monsters aren't totally trustworthy, but they don't make mistakes like this. No one does."

Actually, someone already did. Meet MatPat's Gaster theory. He claims that Gaster split into Sans and Papyrus, and yet also claims that Gaster worked with Sans and Alphys on Entry 17. But.. by his own theory, Sans didn't exist until after the experiment, splitting Gaster into Sans and Papyrus. What's to say the monsters didn't also mess up like this? And then there's Sans being Ness. So yes, it is possible to mess up this badly. (And MatPat has also made quite good theories at times) Once again, I suppose that the monster who wrote the plaques was completely ignorant, on at least a "Sans is Ness" level.

Do note that the part about no entrances or exits also logically connects with the part that mentions the barrier-First the barrier's properties were mentioned, including anything passing through it, and how it takes the power of 7 human SOULS to break it, THEN, as a response to that, it mentions how a human will never fall, and therefore, they will be trapped forever. So actually, they would have "learned" about stuff falling through well before mentioning there being no entrances or exits was written down. So, since we've established the plaques are not objective facts, we should view them as the speculation they are, instead of just blindly trusting them, and taking them as fact. We should be skeptical.

"Far, far into the earth we walked, until we reached the cavern's end."

This is the full quote from the book. Now, that's one-fifth of the Underground, so that is quite far. Also, it's only Asgore's castle that we see look tiny from Waterfall-Not all of New Home. Now, this quote mentions the end of the caverns, that is the Ruins-None of the other areas are like caverns. Now, if they made it to the END of the caverns, then why isn't there anything in Flowey's room but a bunch of grass? Why do we have an entrance to the Ruins from the far side of the Underground? Wouldn't they be entering the city from Snowdin? I'm pretty sure walking through the Royal Castle's basement, working your way up to ground level through mere stairs, and then leaving through the main room of the castle, and what appears to be an actual entrance isn't really how someone would want to build the entrance into their city. And yet, if they went from New Home to (Old) Home, that would be the entrance to the city for everyone that wanted to come over after Home was originally built.

Another question to raise-Why was the lands of Snowdin, Waterfall, an Hotland mentioned as territory they had to endure on their quest to New Home, but not the original journey to (Old) Home? "We braved harsh cold, damp swampland, and searing heat. Until we reached what we now call our capital. New Home." Wouldn't this be more relevant the first time they braved through it, rather than the second?

Yes, I do believe the barrier exists on both ends. And since the monsters saw the barrier when it was made (Hey, they were the ones being banished-How can you not witness your own banishment?), they know that if they go too far, they will reach the other barrier. And so, they stayed at the end of the caverns, knowing they went far enough-It was quite far. Once they feared the humans no longer, they expanded, braved through harsh cold, deep swampland, and searing heat, until they made it to the other side of the Barrier.

"(Side note, I hope you do realize that when Chara fell down, monsters were still living in (old) Home, right?)"

...They weren't. Asriel's bedroom contains only one bed in the Ruins (for Asriel), and it contains two beds in New Home (one for Asriel, and one for Chara). The reason why they feared the monsters no longer is because no humans had fallen in over a century-If they were going to attack the monsters, they would have already. Do note that the end of 201X is "The date I came here." Toriel's calendar is still in the beginning of 201X, likely being when they began to move. Therefore, Chara fell at least after they left the Ruins, and considering that Asgore has a calendar of the end of 201X still there, they probably arrived sometime before the end of 201X as well. Underline gets how they met quite well, actually. (Not about Gaster being two skeletons, nor the corruptions, but simply how they met-Though I do agree Chara could SAVE and LOAD.)

"It glorifies and exaggerates the events, and it pretty much is just an artist's rendition (Temmie Chang's)."

How do we know that this is an exaggeration? Why can't this be the actual events? And yes, Temmie made the art for this. Toby designed the game as well, so by that logic, the game is a glorified and exaggerated rendition of the story of Undertale.

"It could very well be true that when they were written, there were no existing exits."

The plaque also says no existing entrances, and we both know that for them to figure out anything can travel through it, and for them to have fallen underground in the first place, there had to have been an entrance.. The same entrance that the monsters fell through in the first place!

"And Chara does not necessarily have to ask them, they could very well be just "observing" the stats, somehow. And any monster can also hide those stats, but most of them choose not to, or perhaps can't."

This doesn't fit Glyde's narration. "Refuses to give more details about its statistics." Not "Is hiding its stats" or "Refuses to let me see its stats", but "refuses to give more details about its statistics". They're giving their statistics to Chara. Monsters can also lie about their stats-Chilldrake's check data is ATK12, DEF7. Their in-game data is ATK6, DEF2. So we can't say this is only Chara being emotional to monsters they're close with.

"Why did Flowey never acknowledge the existence of the narrator, except for the very end of the genocide route?"

The narrator is irrelevant to what Flowey was speaking of, save for that route and the end of TP (as Flowey) where he does acknowledge their existence as Chara, just by their identity. After all, it's not Chara who killed Toriel, and then reset. It's not Chara who was playing God with the ability to SAVE and LOAD, and it wasn't Chara who made friends with everyone and therefore allowed Flowey to become Asriel.

"Why do only so few monsters react to Chara's quotes, if they can be heard normally?"

They're usually bland quotes, like "Froggit hops close!"- Statements that wouldn't elicit a response.

"You're saying that everything is a part of the game, except for that. Well, what if those meta moments are canon too?"

They are. They're simply not meta moments at all. The final speech is canon-It's to Chara. Flowey's Genocide Speech is canon-It's referring to the narrator. And the reason why I consider Undertale as not canonically a game that they know about, is that if they knew Undertale was a game, why hasn't Flowey attempted to hack the game? Why does Asriel say to go be with the friends that love you, when that ends the game, and therefore, the world of Undertale? (Going by the Undertale canonically being a game theory here) But yes, these moments are indeed canon-Just as we can't prove the HUD moments aren't, we can prove these aren't. It's just these moments aren't actually referring to the game at all-They're referring to something else-When Flowey spoke Chara's name at the end of TP, they were talking to Chara, not you. Like I said, he could have done a OneShot and spoke the player's PC name. (If he did that, then I'd be convinced that he spoke to the player as an entity of their own. Also. my main argument against the world being code is not that it's "nonsense", I have no real to use that argument when I've already established that's not a valid argument. My real case against the world being code is that Sans isn't hacking the code in his fight, and how the world being code was never mentioned or abused once, unlike the HUD. I also have further evidence against Undertale specifically being the game made by the Annoying Dog, and how it leads to a contradiction.)

Oh, and as for Undertale having to be a game, that's only true if the Player exists within the story. And even so, there's something called an AU-We can all make our own AUs as we please... But we shouldn't consider them as canon. A good example of this is Dreemurr Reborn:A very interesting story-We just shouldn't call that canon-We know what actually happens to Asriel. (Whether or not he's eventually SAVEd is... debatable, but we know he wasn't SAVEd before they reach the Surface, which is DR 's take on it) That doesn't change that it's a good story, however, and it can stay-Just don't consider it as canon to the original Undertale universe. Right here, we're theorizing about the original Undertale universe, to answer one question-Is the red SOUL determination or not? While doing so, we got into side questions as well, also about this ONE universe.

"On the other hand though, I regard people who keep the buttons but not the actual battle interface as not being well-taught about the game. Since you either have the HUD, or you don't. Duh."

I actually agree with this-I consider both the buttons AND the interface as canon. However, they're probably still being creative, and trying to go meta, without showing the giant battle interface.. Animations just look better when the fights don't use the battle mechanics (Fan-animations aren't canon, after all..), because we're not seeing an epic fight.. (Dreemurr-Reborn's Chara fight, however, does the canon battle style VERY well.... Though the fight swaps the roles- Chara's a human-They don't use magic attacks. But hey, this is already an AU-Why not be a bit creative-It's YOUR AU, so you can make these fights be canon there-But we have to acknowledge that it's an AU and not use this for theories on the original game.)

"And if Undertale has an intelligent designer, then it's Toby Fox, who created a game."

...The game exists WITHIN the world of Undertale. That game cannot be the world of Undertale, because the very room itself is a part of that world. Toby Fox couldn't have created himself by barking into a computer that didn't even exist yet! Toby may very well be the designer (he does call himself a dog god after all, and asks for a donation in the japenese FAQ:https://www.jp.playstation.com/blog/detail/5224/20170628-undertale.html), but he didn't create the universe he's inside by making a game within the universe that didn't exist yet, using a computer that didn't exist yet-That's a contradiction.

"There's too many asterisks and exceptions to the HUD, and its rules can even be broken."

Einstien's physics contains a lot of those "asterisks", and there's even flat-out exceptions to them as well! (Quantum tunneling can actually happen FTL) Also, the rule isn't that you can't attack on someone else's turn, the rule is that when it's their turn, you must stay inside the box, and the only way to attack is to use the buttons. They never said you can't play it clever and move the box, so that you can press the button when it's not your turn.. So yeah, there is a universal cosmic set of rules.

"But if the world isn't code, then the parts that have to be code are non-existant."

Indeed:I'm not arguing against that logic; instead, I'm trying to show how these parts do NOT have to be code!

7)"Assuming that they are, that we are, is it still not possible that Flowey MIGHT be talking to the player?"

Why does he use Chara's name and not our PC name like in OneShot? (Or just call us "player" if he doesn't know our name) Clearly, he doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the player (Assuming they exist), as he assumes Frisk is the one SAVing and LOADing. He thinks we're Chara, the first fallen human in fact, so he can't be talking to us in Genocide-And the one watching it happen cannot be us either, as we're the one actually doing it. And Flowey's dialogue about that sicko is still the same even if you're not recording a video-So it can't be Youtube (How did Flowey figure that out?) How can he be talking to us, if he doesn't even know we exist?

"And now, assuming that the player is NOT canon, using the same logic, cannot we conclude that these conversations happen outside of the canon story, since we've just pulled the player out?"

If we eliminate the player (like we both have), then what remains is the possibility where he is not talking to the player, and that is the possibility we should be using.

"How can NOT one of them listen, while the other one can?"

They're both listening-Similar to how in a meeting, even if only one person was addressed, everyone there can hear it. However, that does not change the fact that the statement was meant for that one person. Yes, Chara is listening in on Flowey mentioning a sicko, and yes, we're listening in on Flowey speaking to Chara, and for exactly the same reason why you said-They're strictly connected. (That's actually why I originally theorized that the creepy face was a response to Flowey mentioning a sicko-Chara heard that.) However, the message is still addressed to the one person it's being said to, and Flowey makes it clear which one it's addressed to.. How? By referring to them by name! In Geno, he thinks you're Chara, and so, uses that name, and he thought you were Chara from as at the end of the Ruins onward-He doesn't know you're Frisk, and that's why he didn't use that name.

9)"I've seen a theory which says that Asriel's 2nd form takes place during a reset, and we're supposed to halt that reset."

That would explain "The whole world is ending".. But here's the thing-Resets are instantaneous-When we do it, it's instantaneous-So is Flowey kicking us out of the world, and into his own world, which is him reloading a SAVE. We couldn't have halted that reset, we would have no time! It would be just like Omega Flowey! Why is it that we can halt this reset, but no others can be halted at all? And why is a Reset this time destroying the world, yet every other time it's just sending the world backwards? Besides, we can still close the game, and therefore LOAD our SAVE file-We're not trapped inside the fight like with Omega Flowey-So we do still have that power within us.

11)"And we got the information that we need at least one monster soul to cross from Alphys. She definitely did not lie to us at that moment. And maybe this truth was actually false (meaning, that whatever source she acquired this piece of info from was also false), but we have no way of proving that, and so we must assume that it is true."

Correct. It's just this creates a contradiction if DT=SOUL power.. So, what's the only solution? DT is not SOUL power-Indeed, Alphys even has the two separated in her experiments! There-No more contradiction problems!

You only said that monster SOULs have more magic than human SOULs, and magic is likely monsters' "trait"-It fits white magical attacks. However, if it takes the equivalent of seven human SOULs in SOUL power to break the barrier, then magic isn't what's required to do so. It's merely SOUL power. So why would this be any different for crossing the same barrier? In order to cross the barrier, we're probably just temporarily breaking a small part of the barrier, allowing us to cross through the hole we've created.

"In a majority of cases, correlation DOES show causation."

No, it just means they're a part of a similar system-Either one causes the other, a third thing causes both of them, or they're independent systems, and this was all a coincidence. Considering how we only have two data points (Humans and monsters), there's actually a 50% chance we'd get a "correlation" by mere chance-There's only four possibilities-Humans have more DT and more SOUL power, they have less DT and less SOUL power, they have more DT and less SOUL power, or they have less DT and more SOUL power. Two of these imply a correlation. We can't call this real evidence, since it would have a 50% chance of happening anyway by mere luck. They're both properties of a human SOUL.

As for persisting being explained by regular DT, that's why my original theory was just that-It was regular DT. But the fact that the six human SOULS appeared to vanish directly after they killed Flowey/broke the barrier is evidence supporting the second hypothesis-Unless they just ran out of DT by coincidence, and the only reason why they persisted for centuried was because the DT they used just bounced off the wall and returned to the SOUL (I actually mentioned the DT bouncing off the walls and coming right back to the SOUL in my first hypothesis over at point 1-I still haven't reached a definitive conclusion on which hypothesis is correct.)

12)"I don't know what are you trying to prove here."

Alright, I'll remind you. I'm trying to prove that Toriel left after the second human fell, which would prove that Sans came into existence after the second human fell, which would mean Sans couldn't have told Asgore about the HUD before then, meaning he couldn't have used this knowledge to dodge attacks and beat the second human, and that if the second human could SAVE and LOAD, that they could beat Asgore, which will then lead to the conclusion that said human could not SAVE and LOAD-Only those with a determination SOUL can, otherwise Asgore would have died to the second human. So red=determination.

Now that I've explained what I'm trying to prove, let's get back to the discussion.

"Asgore obviously didn't want to cross the barrier with just one human soul, he wanted to wait for 7 humans to fall down. He told this to everyone."

The part in bold is what I'm arguing against. I agree he never really wanted to cross the barrier this way (Actually, he didn't want the humans to fall down at all, as Toriel points out. He never wanted monsters to be free at all, because he knew that would start another war.), it's just I'm convinced he did not say this to everyone, but rather, simply said it was time to end their suffering once and for all, and basically declared war on humanity. And Asgore likely did not expect to actually win against the second human, considering how humans are much stronger than monsters in SOUL power-He was probably playing to lose, like with Frisk. It's just Frisk could reload every time they were killed, but the second human couldn't, and so, they stayed dead, forcing Asgore to come up with a reason for why he's not absorbing the SOUL and crossing the Barrier already-This was not what he wanted. And then was the perfect opportunity to reveal the plan of seven SOULs, as before, he never said how he was going to destroy humanity.

"I was going to use their SOULS to become godlike"-Yes, he was. Remember, Toriel's plan was that after he crossed the Barrier with one SOUL, he could have taken six more from the humans, and THEN broke the barrier with his godlike power-This line still makes sense-He is still using seven SOULs, it's just his methods of acquiring the last six SOULs are much more efficient.

13)Chara says "Tears run down your face". So yes, they did say you were crying. And Frisk denied that tears were running down their face. Chara said Frisk laughed, and that they cried. Frisk denied the latter.

14)There's also no proof Chara can't be heard, and incorporeal beings don't hear telepathic voices. Also, you're saying Flowey couldn't have logically heard the narrator, and are trying to prove that it MUST be a meta-moment.. So why are you putting the burden of proof over on my side? If the narrator IS audible, Flowey can figure out the narrator exists, and did. No contradictions. It's perfectly plausible-We just need to accept the not-so far-fetched claim that the narrator can be heard, and we've solved a plot hole in the story, on how Flowey is aware of the narrator, the only possible being the "sicko" could be. And so, we don't have to call this a meta-moment. You're arguing we HAVE to call it a meta-moment, so you're the one with the burden of proof here. The "meta-moments" can all make sense within the story without being meta-moments-That's my argument-And I came up with a plausible explanation for this one, so it's up to you to prove that this doesn't make sense-And making an uncalled for assumption to do this doesn't work.

16)Perhaps he attacked everyone to get the others to arrive, hearing their distress? He did get you to play True Pacifist just to gather everyone up to absorb their SOULs, after all. And yes, he didpretend to be angry, just like how he pretends to be angry as Omega Flowey when he's "defeated" (before the SOULs revolt, not after)