Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-33883848-20190306180057

"She outright list the two as separate things about DT. She specifically says that it's what allows human SOULS to persist and change fate; she is talking about DT as a whole in general. The two can be swapped and the point of the sentences wouldn't be changed at all. Her speil is essentially an inverse of the Waterfall Plaque; saying what DT does and then what it is, in contrast to the Plaque's exposition on what DT is and then what it does. The fact that these two things are their own sentences alone spells out that they're separate things about DT. Having a form of and in a sentemce isn't the only way to convey that. "

Nothing implies that they are separated things and alphys gives you those two dt to give an accurate description of dt and implies that they complete each otehr ,the "resolve tio change fate"also doesnt make any sence with the context.Plus ONLY the will to keep living can allow to persist after death "but as long as i was determined to live,i could come back",thats not the resolve to change fate in general that allows humans to persist,while dt is Something that make the souls persist.

"No it isn't. This is literally just a cheap attempt to try and force teo things into being one thing. As I said, death is only a FATE/DESTINY if it's outright foretold what your end is going to be. "

death is literally a fate https://dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/dictionnaire/anglais/fate and youre actually trying to give another definition of fate so it would contradict this fact

"The will to live cannot change this, it's simply wanting to live, what we do subconsciously every day. "

yes it can allow you to change fate,death as it can allow you to persist after death

"Except for Flowey outright saying you could do X to change the ending and get a different one. As well as the Asriel fight post first REFUSE in general. "

the dt subtance alphys was talking about has Nothing to do with that,dt shes talking about is de-termination,so the ability to overcome death

"2: The mere fact that she's LISTING them shows that they are separate applications and functions of DT. "

which means Nothing,she was just trying to accurately explain it.You can use two définitions in a line that basically means the same thing but worded differently

"Except for the vey clear application of the real world definition via SPARING and the quote about making monsters not want to fight you (i.e lowering their Determination to do so)."

again,this has no relation with the substance she extracted from the souls,thats another kind of dt

"1: Both are a form of firmness of purpose. Just specific forms. 2: How does that make any sense? I'm confused here. "

the dt she extracted is specifically the will to keep living not just the firmess of purpose,if it was firmess of purpose in genral then she wouldnt have to call it at all as firmess of purpose already has a name:determination

" DT, so they're related by nature, just not so intricately that one can't be without the other. "

where is it said?And alphys only extracted one subtance from the souls not two

"Willingness to continue =/= Firmness of purpose. "

willigness to continie is a result of firmess of purpose.And in undertale dt is the resolve to chnage fate,not firmess of purpose in general

"It's a memory! Chara explicity says that Frisk DT and SOUL are why they came back, and since SAVE goes to the LIVING being that falls into the Underground, Frisk is the one with the power itself. Chara COULD use it since they're attached to Frisk, and the ones getting the LV. But they only get power by Frisk getting EXP. "

that doesnt matter whatveer frsik dt was Something that brought chara back ,that wasnt their own dt because they were unconsious but the fact is they are the one who bring frisk back to the save point when they dies as this message is adressed to chara and not frisk and as chara is the "demon that comes when people call it name",thus they come when asgore call their name.AND STOP WITH LV ARGUMENT,holy shit stop to overestimate this thing ,in the game its only allows you to be emmotionaly distant that everything that is said it does

"1: It's what brought him back to life for one. "

which means Nothing ,of course he needed otehr poeples dt to come back to life as he was unconcious but he can clearly have it when he came back,after all dt is a feeling that all,everyone can have it

"2: He has no fear of death. "

iam a little bit tired of talking with ignorant poeple who understands Nothing in this fandom. Flowey explicitly says that the Reason why he was determined to live is because he feared to die,because he didnt knew what would happen if you dissapear and he outright state he was determined to live"but as long as i was determined to live"

"Exactly, and Flowey has it due to thr DT he was injected with, nothing more. "

because he has his own psycological feeling of keeping himself alive,every single living "Was this supposed to accomplish anything other than restating what we've ready been saying this entire thread?"

"He meant as in what these six put together make. "

Nothing implies that its supposed to make anything,if frisk trait was dt then they would use other tactics to achieve their goal.And their whole theory was tied to forced interprEtations.

"1: Playing a game to get the most elusive accomplishment =/= firmness of purpose. - MagomaevaAnima."

oh really because you say so?Frisk personality is a mix of all 6 traits and that doesnt matter what you say as its literally explictly stated by the ball game

"2: The second flag all but screams that resolution is how you got it, and here's the thought process for my point on this": its only says that frisk is trying to be themself, "What a coincidence, the second flag did just that. "

no it didnt,it nevr says that frisk was determined to get any Victory but that tehy are trying to stay themself

"The Ball Game is about achieving victory, getting the ball in the hole and the flags. Sounds like Determination to me. "

but everything you wants sounds like determination to you

"2: The 'stupid things' are all either people striving toward a goal (mouse and the cheese) or something relating to your goal of going home (playing in the leaves or making snow constructs, a happy coincidence, an obstacle to overcome, or something that would remind you of home - however strange it might be). To Frisk they would make them more determined, because they serve as a push to pursue their goal in some form or fashion. Everyone gets empowered by different things, react differently to different things. Frisk just took these things as a reason to not stray from their goal. "

i dont know how "partacking in a worthless garbage"is suposed to give you dt,besides it never says that they incraese frisk dt but literally that they give them dt"it fills you with determination"and if they were really filled with determination because they wanted to return home,then the narration would say so

"3: Frisk and Chara have red SOULS, both are constantly and consistently associated with Determination, both are shown to never flinch or waver in achieving their goals. "

1.All humans are associated with dt 2.Achieving goals is not the same as "having the will to live on"or "resolve to change fate" 3.Frsik is honestly never showed of wanting to achieve any goal exept in the oacifist ending

"The other SOULS already have traits associated with them, and DT is the only canon candidate left that lines up with the flags, Frisk and Chara, and even the color of their SOULS. "

but dt DOESNT HAS to be a trait,its a feeling just like fear,joy,hope etc....A POWER all humans have and that allows humans to persist after daeth,just because dt is mentionned doesnt mean its a trait