Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-31536324-20190106202652

">Okay then, explain how it's better.

Pretty much, when we assume that red is DT, we are inherently assuming that the trait is something that is already native to the soul, when in fact we can simplify Frisk's "DT achievements" as being due to the native determination, rather than their own trait. In essence, occam's razor."

Traits ARE native to the SOUL, the color is based off what your trait is. DT naturally allows your SOUL to persist outside the body and after death. Humans with any trait but DT would be able to SAVE and RESET when in the Underground because the ability goes to the most determined being, which is how it's expressly stated to work.

What is your argument here?

">Integrity.

Integrity = morality, wisdom, honor. Being yourself is much more vague than that, it's not limited to just those three synonyms."

Integrity is outright stated by the flag to be about "sticking to your original style", i.e being true to yourself, and honesty.

">How can your trait be Kindness when all humans have it?

It's not just that all humans have it. It's also the fact that it's essentially a real magical substance. If all humans have this magical substance within them, then what does having one additional magical component of the same nature, the "trait of determination", change exactly? What exactly is the difference between having magic, and having magic?"

The whole "Everyone has DT" argument falls apart BECAUSE everyone has all of the other traits as well by matter of simple common sense. Everyone has Bravery, Justice, Kindness, etc. What makes everyone having DT so special of a counterargument? However little it actually counts as one. All humans have Determination, all humans have the resolve to change fate, and the ability to have their SOULS persist outside the human body and after death. As well as the ability to be brave, fair, kind, patient, honest, and perseverant; that's basic nature. Everyone has all of these things, what makes DT such a special exception regarding this?

Also, "additional magical components"? Now who's making up new rules just to fit their theory? Oh wait, that was still only you.

"Once again we spiral back to the fucking fact that DT is soul power, which implies that the soul owns 99% of its power to the substance of DT, which shows just how pathetic this increase in magical DT is if we assume that red is DT, contrary to what is being claimed all around, that having a soul of DT somehow makes a huge difference."

The SHS (Six Human SOULS) all had DT extracted from them, likely enough from each to equal 1 HS (Human SOUL) worth, seeing as how they're still around by the time of the game. As Omega Flowey, Flowey had 7 HS worth of DT, and regained the power to SAVE from Frisk. After becoming Asriel again, he had at least 8 HS worth of DT, and yet Frisk still retained control of the Timeline, meaning they still had more even then.

Given that Frisk had more DT than base Flowey, who had at least one HS worth of DT, that means they had at least two HS worth of DT and jumped to at least 9 HS worth of DT to beat Asriel out by one. Meaning they jumped up 7 HS worth of DT. (Toriel, Sans, Papyrus, Undyne, Alphys, Mettaton, and Asgore; would you look at that, seven.)

Also, you're still on that DT = SP thing, despite THA and I disproving it multiple times with nothing but in game evidence and common sentence structure? Wow.

The "plaques" are the same plaque, they're talking about one thing: Determination. There is no mention of SOUL Power AT ALL and the "correlation" you "had" (Strength and Power being synonyms) had no basis to stand on.

The True Lab Entries clearly differentiate the two into two different subjects, never once correlating one with the other. SP is explicitly stated to be what's powering the Barrier, and that what a single human SOUL's worth is what NAMS (Nearly All Monster SOULS) put together would equal to. DT is given no such metric, the closest thing being that both Entry 17 and Alphys outright say that Monsters can't handle human levels of DT due to having little physical matter, but that still is not a metric.

There's also the fact that DT can decrease and increase, as shown by the SHS having theirs extracted (i.e decreasing), and the differences between the OF and GoHD fights(i.e a clear INCREASE).

"I believe in continuality. So if you tell me that a 1% decrease in DT from the full state disallows Frisk's soul to refuse, I'd laugh, not only because it's a disproportional change, but also because obviously this is implying that in order to refuse, the soul must use up 100% of its power, which would allow for only a single refuse, and then permanent death (if you drain the soul of its soul power, something bad should happen, logically)."

To the bit in parenthesis: obviously.

To everything else: we REFUSE multiple times in the exact same fight. It's even lampshaded by Asriel in that same fight.

"This is why I view "DT trait" to be bs. Because due to various other facts, it just makes no god damn sense."

Care to actually SAY what these "various other facts" are instead of vaguely implying their existence?

">All of which are attributes of Determination.

And all of which can be explained using the default DT substance, rather than their own trait."

Yes, but REFUSE can't. I was pointing out how Frisk actions directly correlate to DT's most prominent attributes, something that would only make sense is their trait was Determination.

"Heck, those things you've listed, I can say that the 6 humans were capable of doing that too, and I wouldn't be wrong. They could reset, there's proof for that. Luckily, they haven't commited a genocide, but I bet it would still be possible, because DT wasn't giving us any special powers, it was merely allowing us to reload."

Those are DT's most basic abilities, all humans can do them, except for SAVE and REFUSE which I will get into after this next paragraph.

"One thing that is unique to Frisk though is the refuse power. But here, I can just say that that's the culmination of their DT power, that anyone would be able to do that, and that the only reason the other children didn't was because they couldn't get through Asgore and eventually lost all hope, giving up. Frisk achieved this power in order to save Asriel. The other children had no such noble goal."

SAVE goes to the most determined being in the Underground (i.e Frisk), so any single human with any color SOUL other than Red would get the ability hands down, simply by virtue of humans naturally having a butt ton more DT than monsters.

REFUSE on the other hand, no. First off, the other six kids are dead, and clearly staying that way. Secondly, REFUSE is clearly an ability that requires someone to have a megaton of DT in order to use it, they have to be so certain of their goal and willing to achieve it that they'd defy death for it (which Frisk does). The other kids clearly didn't have the determination to go so far to achieve what they wanted (which was likely to go home), while Frisk did. The fact that they're dead and Frisk isn't should be enough of a sign.

In my opinion, REFUSE is an ability exclusive to Determination and those with Red SOULS. Much like how Bravery would have the Orange Attacks, Justice has the projectiles, Kindness the shield, Patience the Light Blue Attacks, Integrity the Gravity Manipulation (going by Sans fight, and the general heaviness of the SOUL when in BLUE MODE, that's very much likely what it is), and the strings would go to Perseverance.

">Now YOU tell ME how Frisk actions attribute to "being theirself."

That's the thing. Individuals labeled that way aren't unique in anything. You could view them as a mix of the other 6 traits, or as neither. They can be anything whatsoever. The only condition is, that they don't conform to solely one of these 6 traits (because then that would logically be their trait, right?)"

To the bit in parenthesis: yes.

To everything else: the problem here is that everyone else would already be being themselves due to their traits, making Red stand for "Being yourself" redundant. My interpretation is that while the SOUL is you, the traits are who you are. That by acting through your trait, even when you think your not, you are being yourself even when you're not doing anything. Again, it makes Red being "Being Yourself" redundant, since their would literally be no difference between a Red SOUL and any other SOUL that's doing what they do in life, other than their color.

You get what I'm saying?

While you could argue something similar with DT due to Perseverance, Determination - no matter what way you look at it - is about having a firmness of purpose and achieving your goal, Perseverance is about continuing/repeating something until you complete/finish it (which is definitely what the PURPLE SOUL MODE exemplifies).

At least with Red = DT, there's a clear difference and distinction between Red SOULS and any other SOUL.

Determination: REFUSE; firmness of purpose; resolve to change fate, and achieve your goal.

Bravery: Orange Attacks; capability to press on despite unpleasantries.

Justice: Projectile Attacks; ability to discern right from wrong/belief in what's right.

Kindness: Shield; care and concern for others.

Patience: Light Blue Attacks; capability and willingness to wait and bide time.

Integrity: Gravity Manipulation; Honesty.

Perseverance: Strings; willingness to continue or repeat until finished.

"If you like meta explanations, you can say that this is because Frisk is controlled by the player. The player's personality varies, and so does Frisk therefore. Hence why a red soul is needed to describe them."

Players also have the DETERMINATION to complete a game and 100% it. I however refuse the Meta Explanation, and simply take the remaining quotes, lines, and such as your basic cosmic horror story. Nothing much really changes other than the loss of the double meta meaning.

The Player instead is the Anomaly. Flowey, instead of talking to a player that he thinks is Chara, is talking to the Anomaly that he thinks is Chara. Nothing else really changes. Heck, Deltarune even outright confirms that Red SOULS are vessels for other worldly entities in the Undertale Multiverse. What better trait for a situation like that than Determination?

">No, just that you need to select the item through the HUD to use it.

I still regard HUD as a purely meta concept. It's ok if we wanna analyze the gameplay itself, but the ultimate goal is to remove HUD from our theories, so that we can have a non-conflicting universe."

No, that's YOUR goal, not mine. Mine is to: come up with a way that this world works without the Meta, and discern what the trait of the Red SOUL is. The HUD is clearly a part of the world since it's been interacted with by multiple characters (Sans and Asgore immediately come to mind) and very clearly having an affect on the world (the SAVE Button and final bit in the Sans fight come to mind).

"I'm tired of this. Either, the world is a simulation, or there's no HUD."

Or the world is not a simulation and there is a HUD. Stop giving this stupid ultimatum. I'll explain WHY it's stupid below.

"Anything in between makes no sense. You're saying the world works like a videogame, while not actually being one. That's an oxymoron. You're describing a universe that is identical to a simulated universe, while claiming that it's not simulated. That's a nonsense, that's what grinds my gears."

Oxymoron: to make haste slowly.

Also, OK KO Let's be Heroes very world would like a word with you, it acts exactly like a video game (EXP, Stats, etc.) but is not a game.

"I'd even be happier with the simulation case, because it just makes more sense than this. But the best case is the "no HUD" case, where there's no weird meta whatsoever, while things actually making sense. And if they don't, we just find an alternative explanation for them."

I've given you the same alternative over an over, and you've kept saying it doesn't make sense while never saying WHY it doesn't make sense.

Also, here's that explanation on why that ultimatum of yours is stupid. The Battle System and HUD are intrinsically connected, you can't have one without the other. Flowey outright says that the battle system (and by extension, the HUD) are how things work in the Underground at the very beginning of the game. Muffet, Sans, Undyne, Alphys, and Asgore all manipulate and interact with the Battle System and HUD by either changing the SOUL MODE, or outright attacking a part of it, further proving it a part of the world.

I've repeatedly given you examples and proof from the game that prove my points, and disprove yours. Yet you constantly ignore them and act like they've never been mentioned, despite the fact THAT THE GAME OUTRIGHT SHOWS THEM!

">Except he KNOWS that you STILL have control, and even says so in the fight. He knows it, and WE know it once he says it, so why should he say it AGAIN?

We always have control. And yet, he always talks. I fail to see your argument?"

Exactly what that sentence says.

Here's an example:

We're sitting at a coffee shop working on papers, I get up to get a coffee and come back with my cup, sipping it. You ask, "You got coffee?" I stop sipping and say, "Yes." A couple hours later, I get up to get more coffee, come back sipping my new cup. You knew that I'd get up in a couple hours to get another cup of coffee when you saw me get the first one.

Answer me this: would you ask "You got coffee" to me again when you, A: Saw me get the first cup, B: Knew I'd get up to get more, and C: Clearly saw me doing so?