Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-31536324-20190212010848

"'It's the mayhem of BALL, not the Ball of Mayhem. Important difference.''

You've put an end to the mayhem caused by the ball. In other words, you've stopped the ball, whose property is mayhem."

Gonna have to say that, to me, the flag is referring to both something under mayhem or causing mayhem. Still vanquishing chaos, but in more than a single way.

"'Think of Justice as the orderly system, and Integrity being what principals to BASE your system off of-Your original style.''

An "orderly system" is a very vague statement without context. With justice, you are striving for order and... justice. And integrity is about morals. The next step is figuring out what real-world scenarios this translates to in such a way that these two fundamental traits overlap as little as possible."

How about Justice = Judicial System, and Integrity = Moral Code?

"'I simply ignore the fanon and build my own canon based on what the game says.''

I mean... don't we all do exactly that? Though I also think that literature has nothing to do with it. I think that was rather the purple human's own personal hobby, rather than the property of all purple souls.

Furthermore, "trial and error" seems to also fit my own head canon about it, which is a reiteration of magic. I've used that to explain Sans's KR hurting you multiple times in a row, but you can also think of it as the necessary action needed to be taken for trial and error - repeating the same thing over and over."

Same, and that's what I take Perseverance for: repeating and doing over continuously to learn and get things right the next time.

"'The Yellow flag makes it clear that the ball is an enemy.''

To the yellow flag it is an enemy. Remember, the narratives could be skewed individually for each flag. Especially if the green flag isn't treating the ball as an enemy. In other words, you don't know, so don't assume."

Agreed. Each flag treats the ball differently. Yellow clearly as an enemy of sorts, Green as something to care for and about, etc.

Purple Flag: Even when you felt trapped, you took notes and achieved the end of "Ball." (Ball is presented as a challenge you're undertaking.)

Blue Flag: Hopping and twirling, your original style pulled you through. (No mention of Ball, but the sentence infers it as a situation to push through even without it.)

Cyan Flag: "Ball" is "Small." You waited, still, for this opportunity, ... then dethroned "Ball" with a sharp attack. (Ball is an opponent or obstical to overthrow.)

Green Flag: Your concern and care for "Ball" led to a delicious victory. (As stated before Ball is something to care for or about.)

Yellow Flag: Your sure-fire accuracy put an end to the mayhem of "Ball." (Ball can be taken as either an opponent to vanquish, or something under mayhem to save.)

Orange Flag: You are the kind of person who rushes fists-first through all obstacles. (Like with the Purple and Blue Flags, Ball is inferred as a, well, obstical.)

First Red Flag: Bravery. Justice. Integrity. Kindness. Perseverance. Patience. Using these, you were able to win at "Ball Game." (The game itself is something to overcome.)

Second Red Flag: Try as you might, you continue to be yourself. (No mention of Ball, or inferring of it; nor either for the game itself.)

"'I'm using the streamlined conclusion of the other traits to find out what green is.''

That's what I said. You're using their conclusion to streamline the conclusion about the others. To change their meaning to make them conform to the rest."

I use what we see in the game itself and real world definitions to do so. After all, doesn't the second red flag seem like Firmness of Purpose?

"'Compassion is a subset. A subset means just that-A SUBSET. Passion is a set, and the set of compassion is contained within that set. Not all passion is compassion, but all compassion is passion. Capiche?''

If the two aren't equal, then... why are you trying to connect passion with green?

''We can't say that green is classical kindness as you define it. Remember, red is a combination of all six traits. So that means Frisk has the green traits.. On ALL routes. Including Genocide.''

That's why I connected green with defense, rather than actual literal kindness."

This is why I go with the iteration I do.

"'I still cite the Asriel paradox.''

I call plot hole. Funnily, there are more, in case this conclusion surprises you. Notably the fur stuck in the sink. It should turn to dust, shouldn't it? And then all the others which we may have touched already in our previous discussions."

Plot Hole - an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television show, etc.

Again, Asriel not commenting on your reset is not a plot hole, because he has literally no reason to do so. That and he outright says that he doesn't have control of the timeline in that same fight.

What fur and sink, and plot holes that supposedly cropped up, are you talking about?

"'Not necessarily. I've taken both and sacrificed none, and I haven't run into any contradictions.''

At the cost of massively bloating your theory. You know what you will get after you manage to unify all the facts presented by the game under one singular set of rules and axioms? An exact replica of the game's code. Bravo."

The code itself has no place or effect on the world of Undertale. Unless it actually plays a role in the story and world, then it's to be discarded. Anything involving Gaster is exempt due to changes including those elements, as well as that one phone call that mentioned him that was in the final project.

"'They're not. Any SOUL of determination can do this, and I headcanon that it's a 1 in 7 chance.''

That already makes them better though. It's not just a unique property, it's a quantifiable advantage that puts it above the rest. And I don't fancy this inequality. I mean, if Frisk's soul was white, a color that's a mixture of other colors, I wouldn't find it as weird. But when it's just another chromatic color... I'm skeptical. I'm not saying it's not a mixture already, but... the colors certainly don't match. So even if it is a mixture, it probably isn't superior to the rest."

That's assuming they can REFUSE willy nilly, when we very clearly see that's not the case. SAVE goes to the most determined being in the Underground, regardless of your trait (assuming it's a one by one case like in the game), so REFUSE would likely be an exclusive ability to Red SOULS.

"'It's SOUL power. You know, the thing mentioned by the Waterfall plaques? It's something completely different, that determines your POWER. Not HP or durability, but POWER.''

And what is soul power? No seriously, tell me, what is it exactly? Is it some sort of a mixture, or is it something new entirely?"

It's the power of the SOUL as a whole, that's it.

"'We should ALWAYS fix them. We should never disregard them.''

Define "fix". Acknowledge and integrate? Or perhaps change to make it conform? Once again, when you adhere to one fact by sacrificing another one, that's changing. Taking both and arching over them with a slightly bloated explanation is integrating it. But either works. Changing something isn't disallowed, since you're merely using a different explanation for the same phenomena. Kinda like the geocentric model vs the heliocentric. An alternative explanation.

My grand point is, sometimes, it's better to find an alternative explanation, for the sake of perserving simplicity. Especially if we can never know what the true answer is, such as with Undertale. But it's also a tradeoff. Too much simplicity and you're gonna be making ridiculous conclusions. Too much adhesion to the canon and you're gonna be making ridiculous conclusions, due to the canon being simply imperfect. Toby's game is imperfect, there does not exist a full explanation, that is also simple. I know this because you've failed to present one after some, what, 2 to 3 years of constantly probing this game? Are you sure what you're looking for actually exists?

I'm still taking the path of the simplest rational conclusion, a healthy balance of both fact reexplaining and weird-ass conclusion making."

Really? 'Cause all I've seen is of your "simplest rational conclusion" essentially you saying that the world of Undertale is itself a game just because it's a game in real life.

"'Asriel's line would like to argue against you.''

Idk man, he didn't actually say anything, nor were his words changed after we did that. It's not about what he said as much as what he didn't say after we did it."

That literally makes no sense, amd here's what he said: "After I regain control of the timeline...I just want to reset everything."

"'ALL of it. The Dirty Hacker Ending is noncanon simply because we can't access it, and secondly because it results in clear contradicts.''

So, already assuming that Frisk isn't the player? Okay, that's one head canon switch you've just successfully set. I wonder what's the next one gonna be."

Frisk and the Player are two separate entities, this is made abundantly clear by the Pacifist Ending.

"'But you need to simultaneously explain the 1st. You can't pick and choose, or flip-flop.''

It's a cyclical system. 0 = 7 mod 7."

This explains nothing, nor makes any sense.

"'But if you blatantly contradict what was said, your theory has a problem.''

Yes. You too can keep it in mind."

We do.

"'In the case of the SOUL, the six traits ARE the dominant ones. The rest just add TO said traits, based on what they are. A square still counts as a rectangle, after all, so compassion still counts as passion, for example.''

So there are more than 6 fluids? Or what exactly are you trying to say? How are the sub-traits distinguished from the main ones to give rise to a different personality? Also, the fixed paragraph is saying the same thing to me. So, don't be bothered about it."

Water is made up of 1 Hydrogen and 2 Oxygen atoms. He likely means the same things with the traits.