Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190425222457/@comment-32182236-20190510013136

So, now it's time for me to do Chapter 8. And remember what I said at the end of Chapter 7-Resetting should be enough for Sans to undo anything wrong he did! It worked for Frisk, so it should work for Frisk. (Sans is Frisk, right?)

Seriously, why didn't Sans reset? And we know that by your take, he didn't reset, since Flowey (and previously Asriel, when he mentions purging the timeline) reveals what resetting is. It's purging the timeline, and bringing everyone to a new one. That's the reason why you don't see two Frisks every time you reset. If there were two Frisks, then Sans didn't reset. So we have to ask:Why?

...You never responded to my defense of said rebuttal, either. I guess we got too carried away with MatPat's rendition of the Ness theory. But I made some points there.

--Chapter 8:Gaster, the Pillar of Temporal Magic--

When Gaster first came to the Underground, he must have seemed like a miracle worker.

Well, he was smarter than Einstein, so of course.

Alphys claims the only reason monsters have modern human technology is because they reverse-engineered all the junk that flowed down the waterfall from the world above. Diligent hunters like Bratty and Catty have salvaged this junk, and figured out how it worked.

...Wait, wasn't it Undyne who said that? Ferret, if Alphys said it too, can you say where, so I can check? Right now, I only see Undyne doing it, if you call her at the Garbage Dump. https://youtu.be/TC3plNwe9SM?t=487

Anyways, I have two explanations for this.

1-Gaster really WAS forgotten after all, so she theorized that all that tech had to come from SOMEWHERE, and decided it came from the humans.

2-If this was only Undyne speaking, remember that she thinks that anime is real. Which means anime would be recording the adventurous lives of the heroes of the shows. Maybe she actually thinks anime is the modern technology..? We did get anime from humans...

---

This is why the monsters have electricity, cell phones, and little wonders like the Christmas Lights you see in Snowdin.

The CORE converts geothermal energy into magical electricity. Humans don't use magic like that, that's a monster thing. Monsters couldn't have gotten electricity from the humans.

Without actual contact with the surface for ages, the monsters have no frame of reference for what the human civilization above actually looks like. Alphys and Undyne both enjoy anime and manga, and Undyne was horrified to learn that humans do not actually swing ten-foot swords or pilot giant robots on a routine basis, feeling horribly let-down.

Their only frames of reference are the media that happens to fall into the dump, and they have no idea what is fiction, and what is non-fiction. And since not everything ends up in the dump, their sources are quite.. incomplete.

That's why Papyrus mentions Santa, but calls him "a chubby, smiling man who loves to surprise people".

Chara, our sometimes helpful and sometimes homicidal narrator, is from the human world of the surface above. And she gives us dialog options that suggest that, just like in our world as players, the magical super-technology in manga is just a fantasy designed to look cool on the page, and is not the normal human experience at all. And the surprisingly normal level of technology we see in the surface town of Deltarune suggests that the humans living on the surface of Undertale’s world are very much like our own.

You still think Deltarune is Undertale?

Well, it's time for my next paradox!

Asriel is still alive, and heading off to college. It couldn't have been that far since 201X. Less than a generation, most definitely. And yet, Gerson is dead, and Monster Kid is older than he is in the present, so it must be later than Undertale.

It's been a long time since a human fell when Frisk showed up in Undertale, and Papyrus never met a human until he met Frisk. This means it must have been a LONG time since 201X when Undertale takes place. So long, in fact, that Papyrus didn't even know about the queen's existence. So at least a full generation.

So, let's review the constraints.

Deltarune must take place less than one generation after 201X.

Undertale must take place more than one generation after 201X.

So, Undertale must take place after Deltarune.

But Monster Kid is clearly older in Deltarune than in Undertale. So Deltarune must also take place after Undertale.

Looks like we have a paradox. Deltarune can't take place in Undertale's world at all! It must be, as I've said, an AU!

--

But somehow, the monsters of the Underground gained access to technology that the humans above had never actually seen before.

Like, for example, magical electricity.

Alphys installs two extra dimensional bags of holding into our phone in a matter of seconds, one of which links to all of the dimensionally-linked boxes we find laying on the ground all through Undertale. As if these wonders that bend time and space are about as interesting to the common monster as a discarded cardboard box. And Alphys has a huge portal in the Core that she plans to use to evacuate the monsters fleeing No Mercy Frisk to another dimension entirely.

Alright, here's what makes me think Alphys is evacuating everyone to the True Lab, and not another dimension, and why everybody DOES die when Chara destroys the universe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7NJ6dIjV_U

I realized I had to do something. Even if it meant everybody would... Have to learn the truth about me. -Alphys, Near-Genocide Ending

Now, how would they learn the truth about Alphys? Well, if they went in the True Lab, where the Amalgamates are, then yes, they would learn the truth. The True Lab is also the one area that we can't go to in the Genocide Route. The elevator must be so secure that even Flowey with his vines can't make it take Frisk/Chara down.

And sentient transforming robots like Mettaton actually exist, and work!

Mettaton isn't a sentient robot. It's a robot body for a ghost to possess. Did you ever use that Mystery Key from Bratty and Catty? It reveals the truth about Mettaton. But you are right about the transforming part.

You can build an epic transforming structure in a lava field without it melting, and you can turn a cell phone into a jetpack or laser gun with the touch of a button!

The monsters really are good at using magic to their fullest potential. I wonder how..?

Undertale’s monster technology is -already- anime made real! There’s no way that any of this stuff was salvaged from the human world above, because this technology doesn’t exist up there! And since the monsters didn’t research this tech on their own, it must have all come from another world!

..Um, they DID research them on their own. That's literally the only explanation for this. Well, specifically, one monster... I think you know who I'm talking about. It's who this chapter is all about.

Someone of remarkable brilliance must have visited the Underground from another world, and left his mark on the entire monster civilization. A scientist capable of doing things even beyond what the humans of the surface above could achieve.

Either way, Undyne was wrong when she said it came from trash. So, if she was wrong about that, then what ACTUAL clue do we have that the monsters didn't research them on their own? (Specifically, Gaster.)

And besides the cover story of this amazing structure acting as a power plant, it also housed The True Lab that served as Gaster’s mad science headquarters, until his eventual death by falling into this very creation, and being scattered across time and space.

The True Lab was not a part of the CORE.

The True Lab is underneath Alphys' Lab, which was L1 of Hotland. The CORE is in L3 of Hotland.

If you told Gaster something was impossible, he’s do it just to show you it wasn’t!

I found another typo. "He's do it"? It's "he'd do it".

And this is why Asgore named Gaster the Royal Scientist, gave him the massive resources he needed to build The Core, and tasked him with the single most important mission in the Underground: To break the Barrier, by any means possible.

"The barrier is locked by SOUL power.. Unfortunately, this power cannot be recreated artificially."-Entry 2

Gaster:..So you think that's impossible? How about I prove you wrong again?

(ex:You place Gaster's Entry 17 with Alphys' Entry 17. Which means Gaster was around to read Entry 2. You also said if you said it was impossible, Gaster'd do it to prove it wasn't. So... that means he'd start a project to artificially create SOUL power. Hey, it's a natural thing that exists, and new SOULs are created naturally when new people are born. Such a process.. What if Gaster recreated the SOUL power creation?)

The Memoryhead amalgamate, the first one Frisk encounters when visiting the True Lab, is unique in that it doesn’t actually resemble any monsters we’ve seen. It attacks you with ghostly heads that might resemble Gaster, has stats that are strangely determined by Frisk’s own +10, talks through Frisk’s phone, and puts a piece of itself in Frisk’s inventory, which becomes the Bad Memory.

What if Memoryhead was one of the shattered pieces of Gaster? It's a shattered piece, not a fully autonomous Gaster, which is why it's not, well.. "Intelligent" compared to Gaster.

You're spot-on with the memorial fountain. ...At least until I find a candidate you missed. Do we know if the Royal Guard even existed before Asgore declared war? I'd like to say they didn't, since they don't exist anymore in the True Pacifist Ending, but I'm not actually sure when they were formed, and haven't actually found any evidence pointing to when they were formed.

If Gerson was dead, I'd have said Gerson was the one the memorial was for. But he's very well alive.

Yet somehow, Gaster was still able to conduct his research into Determination Extraction, because Alphys discovers Gaster’s blueprints for the DE machine in the True Lab, which is how she was able to build her own.

Good catch! ...This very paradox is why I've been trying to avoid the statue being of Gaster, to try to make it anything BUT Gaster.

And if Chara was the first human who fell from above, this unknown human hiding alongside Gaster must have arrived in the Underground through some other means.

That is completely backwards.

Chara is the first known human to be seen in the Underground. Hence why they were adopted into the Royal Family, and not this mystery previous human.

However, there is no evidence to suggest that they were the first human to vanish into Ebott. Remember, the legends about humans vanishing already existed by the time Chara fell. While this could be because of the nature of Ebott itself, as I theorized, it also allows the possibility of Chara not being the first to fall from above.

So the evidence points to Chara being the first to be seen underground, not the first to vanish from above. The latter has just been implied from the former. Appearing from another world wouldn't solve the former problem, and the latter problem doesn't actually exist.

He arrived along with at least one other, because “We” had gone to check on an anomaly in the space-time continuum, where timelines kept starting and stopping, until eventually everything ended.

Why can't "we" just be Gaster's team? Why does "we" HAVE to be someone from the same world as Sans was presumably from? Why does Sans even have to be from another world at all? If the man was Gaster, and/or Chara, where does Sans fall into this? How is HE from another world?

Getting to the surface is not the same as going back, yes. Sans isn't from the human world of Undertale. Doesn't rule out him being from the underground itself, or an alternate timeline of it.

Both these lines mention “man”, as in “human”. And they are both certainly about Gaster, because he is The Man Who Speaks In Hands, and since Sans is trying to help Frisk rather than kill him, Frisk has no reason to beware of his future self unless Chara’s ghost warps him completely beyond recognition.

Sans refers to Toriel as a woman when we dine with him at the MTT resort, and we know how a fact that she's a monster. "Man" and "human" are not the same thing. You made the exact same mistake that MatPat did when he assumed the photos of people you don't recognize must be humans because it said "people".

And why isn't it Chara who Frisk needs to beware? Chara, from the Surface World, the "other world"?

Based on your previous posts, you seem to have been confused on what my take is.

Here you go, you can have it in full.

Sans:From the Underground (Likely related to Gaster) Gaster:The Man Who Speaks in Hands Chara:The Man from the Other World (Surface World)

If I find a monster that speaks in hands that actually DOES something to Frisk, I'll replace Gaster with that monster in my take. But I doubt that will happen.

The Gaster Blasters might be artifacts from another time entirely, and may never have been invented in Frisk’s timeline at all.

If they weren't invented, they wouldn't exist.

What do Sans, Papyrus, and Wingding Gaster all have in common? They’re all members of The Font Brigade, the only characters in Undertale who talk in the fonts they’re named after, showing they all share some type of strange bond.

That's probably because they're all skeletons. Or, at least are SUPPOSED to be. If we went into the world of Undertale, and somehow made the skeleton population grow, each and every skeleton would probably speak a different font.

And we know from his secret Lab Entry 17 that while Gaster was setting up his Darkest Experiment, he was confiding in two other people in the lab, and asking them “WHAT DO YOU TWO THINK?”

The common concensus is Sans and Alphys. Alphys only entered the scene, and took over Gaster’s old laboratory, after he died. But in Entry 17, Gaster is still alive, so Alphys wouldn’t have replaced him yet. And Alphys would have no reason to be in that room.

So you've changed your mind about the two Entry 17's being made at the same time? Gaster's Entry 17 DOES predate Alphys' Entry 1? Alright, then. Now take away the Entry 17's serving as a link between the two timelines. And then, I'll take away that bit about Gaster proving to Alphys that it's not impossible to artificially create SOUL power.

What happened on the Night of Gaster’s Darkest Experiment?

What makes you think it was dark? Because the darkness kept growing? Just because darkness was a part of the experiment doesn't mean his experiment was dark, as in, the other kind! You're taking the literal and metaphorical darkness as if they're the same thing! That's the fallacy of equivocation!

We know Entry 17's darkness was talking about literal darkness, since it explicitly mentioned the photon readings being negative. So it was literal darkness, with possibly literal shadows, and no photons.

So we have no reason to assume that it was a dark (figuratively) experiment.

Which was the very reason Gaster researched Determination in the first place, when he was the resident Royal Scientist. Because once bypassing the Barrier failed, the only alternative to breaking it was with SOUL power.

Why would it fail, though? Here, Gaster:I have a plan!

1:Find out how humans can save, load, and reset

2:Artifically recreate that power, to time travel before the Barrier.

3:Bring everyone to the Surface World

4:Go back to the present with everyone

5:Profit!

Alternatively, you could use your Gaster Blasters to turn the tide of the war.

If I can think of it, Gaster could have thought of it, because he's a genius.

So Gaster developed Determination Extraction and injection from the very beginning, as a way to collect monster souls.

Right, where else could he get determination from? Humans that didn't fall yet?

Though he wouldn't get very much. But perhaps he could study it and try to recreate it artificially after finding its chemical formula..?

But if CoolSkeleton95 was born in 1995, he would be around two decades old by the time Gaster died in Frisk’s timeline in 201X. So while there are still mysteries surrounding Sans’ brother in bones, Papyrus is certainly a normal Underground monster during the game, and definitely not Gaster’s skeleton. So Papyrus could have easily met Sans and Gaster when they arrived, and joined their party.

Why couldn't CoolSkeleton95 have been born in 2095? (I've asked this several times, as well.)

And it just so happens...That there is a memory from the Alpha timeline, hidden deep in Undertale’s code, in the form of the TWO secret True Lab Entry 17s.

no No NO NO NO NO! You just made it clear that Alphys wasn't there at the same time that Gaster fell! Was Alphys with Gaster or not? You have an inconsistency in your theory, just like MatPat did in his FNAF3 theory, saying the thing Purple Guy was holding in SAVETHEM both wasn't and WAS a phone!

The second Lab Entry 17 is stashed deep in the very code of the game, an echo of a footnote. It writes about the formation of the Amalgamates. In it, the author theorizes that monster bodies can’t withstand large amounts of Determination without melting. A theory that’s incomplete because it doesn’t account for Undyne in her role as the control group.

It easily can, Undyne simply had less determination than the Amalgamates did!

The timing of Entry 17, appearing between 16’s “no No NO NO NO NO” and 18’s “The flower’s gone”, has an eerie significance. The moment Gaster mentions that his next, Darkest Experiment will be very interesting… Flowey animates, and disappears. Much to Doctor Alphys’ surprise and chagrin.

Entry 17 explains what happened to the Amalgamtes. Alphys really wouldn't have anything new to say, or any reason to make a new entry, until the flower vanishes.

Instead, both Gaster and Alphys had to create a vessel out of a living creature that was neither human nor monster, then bind this vessel to their control as a type of puppet, so they could force the Vessel to wield the power of Seven Human Souls to do their bidding, and break the Barrier for them by remote control.

Yes, they would both need a vessel. But, I imagined Alphys' plan as just taking the SOULs, putting them into SOUL capsules to trap them, and giving them to the vessel...

..Though I suppose you would still need to control the vessel to have it actually break the Barrier. But I imagined the vessel as more of a non-sentient means to an end, than an actual, living being. Which means that through a quirk of overlapping timelines, Gaster and Alphys BOTH created Flowey in their respective realities!

How do we know Gaster created Flowey, specifically, and not something else?

Someone is controlling Flowey the vessel now… And it isn’t Alphys.

It's Asriel!

The Elevator Voice claims to have known Chara, specifically, from the past, and says that they haven’t met in a long time.

Say it with me... "It's been a long time", PERIOD. The voice never said "It's been a long time since we've met. You need to stop adding those last three words to the sentence. They were never there. It's one thing to use evidence that actually exists, but that's just making up evidence.

He stayed on as the Royal Scientist right up to the point in time where Alphys wrote her own Entry 17: A time after Chara had already visited the Underground, and Asgore had collected six human souls from the ones who followed her.

Cue Gaster reading Entry 2 and trying to prove it is possible to make SOUL power artificially.

Sans and Gaster were two human friends from The Other World, a world where anime super-technology was real, and humans had amazing mind-powers.

Ferret, how do we know it was normal in that world? Gaster easily could have invented all that technology himself.

They detected an anomaly in the space-time continuum happening on a different world, where timelines kept stopping and starting, and eventually lead up to the End of Everything.

Well, at least you finally made a motive for them to go to the other world in the first place. That puts you WAY above MatPat.

Once they arrived, they found the Barrier prevented the Silver Key Machine from warping back to their homeworld again, breaking it in the process of trying. So unless Sans and Gaster could find a way to destroy or bypass the Barrier, there was no way for them to go back to The Other World they came from.

Why would they instantly try to go back? They came to fix the problem, so they should have just, well.. fixed the problem.

To blend in with the monster population, Sans dressed up as a skeleton while Gaster pretended to be a ghost. And they befriended Papyrus, a real skeleton, to help make their undead disguises more plausible.

How do we know it wasn't a skeleton he was trying to be, only becoming a ghost after his fall? Also, this was during or before 201X. Long before monsters declared war on humanity.

After his attempts to bypass the Barrier through dimension travel failed,

There! That's when the Silver Key Machine could have broken in your narrative.

Gaster began to study the Determination generated by human souls as a resource that could be extracted and put into monsters, so their souls could survive outside their bodies and be collected.

What about time travel? Oh, and Gaster, I think you really need to start working on, oh, I dunno… Stopping the anomaly?

And since he began this research before Chara and the six humans who followed her fell into the Underground, Gaster had to use his own soul and that of his friend Sans as the source of Determination for his experiments.

Yeah, it's better to use the far, FAR greater source of determination, then go around trying to steal some from the innocent monsters. You gotta leave a good impression, right?

In the original Alpha timeline, Gaster stayed on as the Royal Scientist even as Chara and the six humans had their misadventures in the Underground. It was good thing Sans and Gaster had kept up their monster disguises, because after Asgore’s edict that all humans would be harvested, discovery would have meant the end of them

You know.. Maybe THAT would be when they put them on?

...No, then the monsters might wonder what happened to those two humans that were still alive, and put two and two together. This would probably be the first time they needed to reset. Unless they could find some way to fool the monsters into thinking the humans died.. AND that the SOULs were unobtainable for some reason.. ...Yeah, I think they're going to need to reset.

But hey, in their second try, they would be wearing monster costumes from the start. So.. I guess the second timeline is a bit closer to yours, now?

Both Gaster and Alphys were researching how to break the Barrier by the collection of monster souls in their respective timelines. And both created Flowey as a vessel to hold all the human and monster souls collected so that the power equivalent of Seven Human souls could be channeled in one place to finally destroy the Barrier.

2+1 is not 7. But since we've already shown they're willing to use themselves for experiments, they could have broken the Barrier on their own after 5 humans fell. No need to steal monster SOULs, they can just use the vessel. I still want to know when the goal shifted from stopping the anomaly to freeing the monsters, though.

A world where Wingding Gaster had already died years earlier in 201X, and had a fountain built in his honor as a fallen hero of the monsters.

I guess it was better off for him to die a hero, than live long enough to become the villain.

But through some sequence of events, Sans had once taken Frisk’s journey earlier in the Alpha timeline, making him the Alpha version of Frisk. So Sans knew that Frisk would eventually arrive, and roughly when, and was able to set many things in motion before Frisk’s game began in the Beta timeline.

Why did he take off his monster costume, walk back though the closed doors to the Ruins (I mean, I guess he could do that with a shortcut), and pretend to fall underground?

As I said, there have to be at least THREE timelines if the "Sans is Frisk" theory is correct. The Alpha Timeline, before Gaster fell, the Beta timeline, after Gaster fell, and the Gamma Timeline, the one we see in Undertale. That would interestingly make Deltarune a "Delta Timeline"... If it wasn't for the fact that it just doesn't fit anywhere.

Sans and Papyrus then established themselves as human-hunting guards to prepare for Frisk’s arrival. And they befriended Alphys, the new Royal Scientist, to aid in the cause of monitoring Frisk and doing what was possible to test him while also keeping him from harm.

Makes you wonder:

1-How did Sans survive the last time around, when he was Frisk?

2-Why didn't Frisk put on a monster costume like Sans did?

There's a third question, but that has to do with Frisk/Sans being Ness, which you haven't said yet, so I'll save it for then.

So Frisk had his adventure in Undertale, while slowly recovering from the head wound he gained after his fall, gradually regaining his memory and powers. And whenever Frisk reached the neutral end of the game, he used the Core Portal to go back along his own timeline and get a different ending.

Flowey and Sans already explained how resetting works. You're destroying the timeline, and sending everyone to a new timeline, with no memory of what happened. That changes the FUN value, as well.

And following Frisk, always hiding in the shadows, was the vengeful shade of Wingding Gaster. The ghost of someone who had once been Sans’ best friend. Who somehow knew Chara’s name, and addressed Frisk as if he were her.

How do we know Gaster is following Frisk? We only see him in that one mysterious room.