Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180710192208

"My patience with you -_-"

That's not the same as the game's patience. Remember, as Malice as said, the wirld of Undertale =/= our world. I've tried to unite the two before, and, well.. THAT'S where my light frequency SOUL magic theory came from. (Which I no longer believe in)

"That's mostly for the chakra concept. You see, there's another issue. The chakras work well for psychology, but soul traits don't."

Yeah, that's why we can say the traits AREN'T the chakras.

"Still, the connection is there, and I like exploring it. Similarly to how I like exploring the connection between the soul traits and the infinity stones. The latter works for magic, but not so much for the human soul traits. And then there's of course the combat styles, as well as musical scale degrees (which I haven't even tackled yet). That's why the connections between the same colors in different topics are only loose. Something always has to be tinkered with in order to make it work, but the core idea is always there."

Well, how about we tinker them back to what the game presents them as? We're analysing Undertale, not Hinduism. So instead of tinkering the game to fit chakras, we should be tinkering chakras to fit the game. Now, if we were followers of Hinduism trying to figure out how chakras worked (or skeptics doing the same thing so we could see how plausible the concept is, or, in the third case, we were having a debate about it, which would both belong in a DIFFERENT wikia, since at that point, we are no longer talking about the world of Undertale), THEN we'd be tinkering the game to fit them.

"I do and I don't believe that that's the case. By "another false flag", I was hinting at your accusation of the monsters making up their history."

They really only left out a part of their history. The part where a monster absorbed a human SOUL. They've corrupted this, turning the event into mere fear of it.. When they have no reason to fear what they have no idea could happen.. It lead to a contradiction. So there's actually evidence here. In the case of the Ball game? The simplest answer is that mental note-taking IS a part of the purple trait. There, all done!

That also means you didn't give a serious answer to the question I had asked, so I'll ask again:Why would the monsters put in the aspect about mental note-taking, if that wasn't actually a part of the trait?

"That's what I meant by that."

So.. Using meta arguments.. To exclude meta..? ..Something doesn't add up here.

"So was the war. Yet, neither is in the game. It's just words."

...Yeah, the war DID happen in the game's world. We know this for the same reason.

"That was more of a call towards the player."

ONE player, MULTIPLE floweys? Yeah, that doesn't add up.

"The idea of it, at most. Undertale is a huge paradox. On one end, it's acting like a game, and on the other, it's trying to act like it's real. This is unlike for example Oneshot, which is explicitly a game, and the "real" portion of it is only ever shown in dreams. So there's no issue there. But with Undertale, we gotta pick and choose."

In-universe, these are all just physical laws. If we're tying to go meta once again, remember that Undertale was created to make game mechanics canon concepts, yet have a real world at the same time. The Kickstarter makes note of this. So, essentially, explanations are to be given for these mechanics, and that's exactly what the game does with its SAVE and LOAD mechanics, and it makes note of others being canon like turns.

"I mean, I would say we should strive for both, if we didn't try it already. We clearly failed at trying to preserve both, that is beyond obvious."

Maybe you did. I haven't given up yet. If you meant we've all failed at least once, well, yes, I'm included here. But, if at first you don't succeed, then try, try again!

"The game can get away with this, because it's just a game. But theories and stories cannot. It's never gonna be the same, nothing will ever be the same as the canon, from principle."

So by that logic, why are we theorizing at all, and calling them theories, rather than what you argue they actually are? That includes yourself, by the way (obviously.) ....I can definitely see why you've grown alin to fanfiction, in the case of Wizardtale.

"If that's the case... where is that world? Why did Toby go practically silent afterwards? I gave up on believing he will ever expand this universe. MAYBE we might get a prequel, but even that's highly wishful and debatable."

I didn't say he planned on revealing it, and, when I said it only existed vaguely, I kind of meant that. Toby didn't flesh out this expansive world, but he showed it existed. He had in mind an expansive world, but only really fleshed out the Underground, being where the game's main story takes place. Take for example Mobius, back when the first game came out. The whole game takes place in South Island, implying the developers imagined the world was much greater than that-But they never really fleshed it out. Same thing here, though in this case, as you said, Toby doesn't plan to do this. ...Even though he hit the stretch goal for this expansive material. (Hey, the comics didn't come out either, what do you expect?)

"He did one QnA, and released one art book about Undertale. So much for the expansive world he wanted to share with us, isn't that right?"

Having something in mind doesn't mean sharing it. Take literally the entire world of Gravity Falls, minus the town OF Gravity Falls, for example. The first episode implies there is a world beyond Gravity Falls the town, but we only ever get a glimpse of one other town at the start of episode 1. The ENTIRE rest of the show exists SOLELY in Gravity Falls. Kind of like how we only get a glimpse of the Surface at the end of Undertale.

"I'd say he has no idea what to make, because he never planned Undertale to take off as much as he did, as he said himself. He has nothing planned, and will move on to other projects of his."

Doesn't look like he's planning anything. Unless you mean the new game that's shrouded in darkness.

"Nope. It's making no sense and it's constantly falling apart in our hands even three years after the game's release. It's clear, the plot of Undertale is not its strongest feature."

That's because we were trying to do everything in the wrong order. We started theorizing the story BEFORE the mechanics, and looked for the wrong things as well, like what order the humans fell in (which I believe will never be solved, because of how little evidence there really is about these humans). We won't solve the history of the Underground, but the basic questions that were brought up by the game CAN be solved.

"That's not the case. It's both. Which is why it's so confusing."

Well, why don't we just go with the confirmation, rather than the connection? They never said it was a game, and plenty of evidence that it's not.

"They don't fit. We also have too little info to come up with a single theory that answers everything."

Yeah. But we can start with each of the major questions that CAN be solved, and use those answers as pieces of their own.

"Look at them again."

..So one's lighter. That's an aspect of the HUD, not Frisk. Remember, fighting itself is a unique option-The only one that:

A-Contains an interactive moment

B-Doesn't actually hold a subset of actions (There's which item you want to use in that case)

"Yeah they do. All the time in fact. And my name is not "Frisk.""

You're right. It's also not Steve, Mario, Link, Sonic, Henry Stickman, *insert D&D name here*...

"Or if you think that Frisk is not a representation of the player, then we agree. But in that case, we must also agree on the fact that they are also steering the story and we don't have a full control over them."

They are as much of a representation of the player as Steve or your D&D character is.

"Hence why I put the word "player" into quotes. Chara is the player stereotype. I thought you knew that by now."

Still isn't confirmation of us playing as Chara. It just means they treat the world like a game.. Kind of like how a megalomaniac would if you literally got stronger by killing.

"He can't leave the world though. We can. So can Chara. With enough power, that is."

Chara can only leave the world by first destorying it, though. Plus, the line turns out to be a total con, because we never have the option to actually do what they say and see them in the next world.

"The polar opposite of the pacifist route. Frisk's personality is pretty much irrelevant in the genocide run, as we all know."

It's just as revelant there as it is in Pacifist. If by "personality" you mean "being a total sicko and killing just to see what happens".

"And yet, they are a meta mechanic. I cannot imagine a single physical law that would conditionally prohibit the simultaneity of actions."

Neither can I imagine a physical law that makes magical spells work the way they do in Harry Potter.

...Maybe it's a magical law, like in the case of SOULs, and summoning bullets out of thin air. Still though, it's a natural property of their world.

"Looks more like a gaming mumbo jumbo to me, rather than anything I could describe with the real world mechanics. And I tried, believe me. This is one of the few parts of the meta that are inexplicable to me."

We're not SUPPOSED to be using real-world mechanics! Undertale is not our world! We only need consistent mechanics, and nothing more!

"Doing it the way you did it combines them. You get 50% for the in-game effort, because you could go even more in-canon. And you get 50% for the meta effort, because you tried to even think about steering away from the meta."

That's not how percentages work. Steering away from the meta on ONLY the highest level, when there's more than two levels of meta, deserves more than just half. And never once have I contradicted canon, so.. What do you mean more in-canon? If the game doesn't take note of it, there is no reason to assert that it MUST be canon, unless you can prove it must be canon from other canon moments within the game.

"And I used percentages, not points."

Yeah, but I took note of how both added up to 100%, and took that as you just splitting it up. The point was, being in both places at once doesn't give you half and half, it gives you full and full. If you take math and history at the same time, is a 50% and 50% the best you can strive for? What about a 100% and a 0%? Or perhaps maybe, JUST maybe, you can, well, do well in both courses, getting an A on both?

"The meta must stay meta. If you try forming a logical theory, you are already breaking the meta."

Which is why I don't plan on using that. I use canon and logic, not meta.

"So you agree that that was not Toby's main focus point?"

No, I agree it's not fanficiton's main focus point. Fanfiction's main focus point is to present their own, creative take on the franchise, with no need for canon regard. That's why Undertale AUs are a thing.

"Because the meta seriously restricts us from developing the story creatively. We are locked into the rules that work only in a gaming setting."

And that's the division between theorizing and fanfiction. In theorizing, the goal is to find out how Undertale works. Theories are always supposed to be about canon. Fanfiction is not bound by these rules, because the point there is not analyzing, but storytelling.

"No there isn't. It's just a game. Don't lose your marbles just yet, you're too young for that."

Of course the universe is fake. Undertale canon isn't real. Just like fanfiction isn't. I meant according to Undertale canon, not in the real world!

"Which is all pointless when you realize that his main focus was the game as a whole, and not the story."

[citation needed]

The story IS a major part of the game..

"Exactly. Undertale is not meant to be developed. It's just what it is."

Well, yeah, that's why I'm not making fanfiction and then saying it's canon. If I do make it, expect me to break a lot of the rules I've been talking about in that fanfiction-Because there, the rules are completely different. I'll be giving an order for the humans falling, despite me saying that being unsolvable, for example. And probably changing a few canon mechanics, which I explicitly said theories shouldn't do. Because fanfiction ISN'T a theory. Kind of like what Underline does.

"I did. It's mainly the meta versus the story. Or the story versus the story."

The only real contradictions you've brought up is a contradiction between implied mechanics and factual mechanics. Like humans not REPRESETING themselves with magic, and creating the Barrier in the intro. Now, tell me, which one should we ditch? It's pretty obvious. (We need not ditch the original notebook either-Just our own leap that humans can't use magic. Or we could say the can't NATURALLY use magic and need to learn like wizards in Harry Potter do, or that those humans were Boss Humans-"Seven of their most powerful magicians" implies not every human is a magician. I mean, Frisk clearly isn't one.)

"Hmm... the Henry Stickmin series perhaps? Or I'm sure there's also plenty of other games that have multiple endings. Undertale cannot be the only one."

Yeah. You asked why a game, right? Yeah, that's why he made it a game and not, say, a book.

"What. Well, you can always randomly change the subject, idc."

That was me giving an example of doing something about theorizing that HASN'T been done before, proving we HAVEN'T fully exaushted the possibilities and interpretaions of evidence over these three years. That was my counterexample.

"Begone the HUD then."

We make the HUD some sort of magical construct of the universe in the conversion process.

"Neither was the intro, nor the surface, nor that house in the distance visible from the cliff that's the entrance to the Annoying Dog cave in Snowdin. And neither was the stupid slashy mechanic in fact."

Yeah, the intro isn't something Frisk sees. I've given up there. It's the game presenting us its story. The Surface was mentioned-Being where the monsters wish to come back to. As for the house.. Okay? I myself never used that to prove anything. Nothing really changes from that. As for the slashy mechanic, well, that's why I said you COULD say that's not canon. But, you'll have to come up with an alternative explanation for both monsters not dodging, and Sans dodging. And it being initiated by the button. ...The slash was the best fit, so that's why I used it. And that's still my headcanon (I don't consider it factual), but only for those reasons.

"That's a thing in the game too though."

Yep. That's my point. It turns the meta aspects like SAVing and LOADing into the concept of determination. It's a fit as well, determination is the resolve to change fate, and Flowey remark that your determination is greater than his, implying that's why he lost his ability.

"So... I guess H2O doesn't make water water?"

Not in the various alternative universes that can exist.

"Similarly, Undertale's properties are too similar to a game no matter which direction you look at them from. Ergo, it is a game."

Determination is a magical aspect-It would make sense to assume similarily of the HUD.

"The heck man where did that hit come from?" "Hey now what, why can't I hit you again?" "Hey no cheating, where did you pull that bun from?" "Hey this monster right next to me just got brutally murdered but I ain't gonna respond or change my behavior or anything because I wasn't in love with it... looks good to me!" "Sorry pal, you can only ask me these 4 questions. No more, no less. Wait, why is that the case? ... Oh well."

As Malice has said, they likely did question it at first, just as we questioned why everything seemed to magically fall down, and why the sun appeared to just go around the earth, breaking this exact same force (apparently). But now they accept it as just another mechanic about their world.

"Yes because everyone else besides S and G are absolute sheeple that don't question anything at all."

Oh, they know about turns. And if they didn't, eating Instant Noodles should teach them. That's why Undyne decides to attack in a way so that her turn lasts for a long amount of time. Knowing that turns exist is one thing. Knowing how they work, and why they exist, and being able to essentially break these rules is completely different. Plus, tell me, how can anyone link just standing in a certain spot unusually to literally creating a SAVE point in the space-time continuum, for everyone to return to when they decide to?, without doing some serious research? Not everyone's a scientist. Not everyone does this kind of research.

"Oh shap you got me there. Here, try remembering this one: Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz."

Looks like a glitch.

"Yeah... I don't think the dog's hiding any more bones than it barks about."

So, the only thing left for us to to see how the pieces come together. WE have to do that, not look around and expect the game to do that for us if we find a certain Easter Egg.

"Thanks, no. I tried already. Now is your turn to fail."

Yeah, that's why my theories are the way they do. Look, this thread was arguing that red was determination IN CANON. So, the rest of this discussion must be talking about the CANON world. Anything beyond that isn't even tangentically related to the subject.

"Yes, I also thought of that analogy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlyTq-xVkQE We have less than 17 clues. That's our case, unfortunately."

Which is exactly why we won't learn the order of the humans falling. But we can get SOME information, although in some areas, there exist multiple possibilities, just as a 16-clue Sudoku contains muktiple solutions.

"No, that's called slapping the story so that it finally starts making some sense. Because it made no sense before that. The game was bordering the meta too much and it was always colliding with the theories, while theories about the meta were always deadpan simple, because you could always refer to the game's code to find out how and why everything works."

Once again, none of the aspects need be meta at all. Just convert what the game talks about into that world's mechanics, and you naturally get Undertale's canonical world. It's that simple!

"There is no Sans either."

You know, that's exactly what your line of reasoning would lead to. Which leads to no Papyrus, which means no Undyne, which means no Alphys.. Also no Toriel, so no Asgore.. Yeah, canon falls apart once you start taking away pieces.

"Jk he simply meant something else by that line. Not the actual in-game turns, but just the idea of us striking him, and him striking us."

..Yeah, he said if he never strikes, we can't strike him back. Explain how that's supposed to make any sense at all if turns don't exist.

"Magic. Magical hallucinations."

Yeah, that's a possibility.

"Yep. I'm breaking the meta. I'm tired of it at this point. You should try it too, it's very liberating."

I'll remember that for if/when I make fanfiction.

"Well, we striked eventually. From the non-meta perspecive, that was just us waiting for him to fall asleep, because we saw that he was tired. And him speaking it's never gonna be our turn? Well, that just means he's ready for anything we do, so we may as well give up, due to the fact that we couldn't hit him a single time before (so what's the chance we will do this time, right?)."

...That would imply he already used his special attack at the start. Remember, doing nothing was his special attack. So.. What's his special attack here?

"Yeah, single particles. But even then, they're virtual, not real. They're just a standing wave in the quantum foam."

Correct. But now, we know such a concept is plausible. Now, can we not imagine that in the alternative universe that is Undertale, something similar can happen with the buttons?

"Yep, and computers are the only thing we know of that can generate a standing text."

Or perhaps a type of magic?

"Kinda? You need it to pass through the barrier after all."

I said INVERSLY related. As in, magic reduces your DT and/or SOUL power kind of relationship.

"Yeah, it's a brief look into the past. But who's past? Who lived throughout all those images? If Asriel lived through the flashbacks he had in the fight, then who did here? God? That's equivalent to saying that it was no one's flashback, and the game simply gave us some starting info here. Just as I said."

And if it IS the game giving us info, why should we say what the game directly told us is wrong?

"Alphys is a counterpoint."

"She's a person. This is a rule we observed. Ergo, she's wrong. We are NOT changing the facts just because someone got it wrong so that they could be right again."

Hey, she was doing actual experiments when she reached this conclusion. As a scientist, she clearly would have seen that they were the same if they were-The proof being right in front of her.

...My point here is, the game won't directly have an answer to everything. If we assumed it did, I could just say red is determination because it's the only real candidate for the red trait, and be done with it. What, others exist? The game doesn't give us any!

"I did that because you did it with red = DT. But now you keep saying that it's wrong to do that? Pardon me, I must have missed your sarcasm."

I was using the logic of self-enclosement and taking it to its logical extreme, to point out its folly.

"Yes, she is not that insane."

Of course not! The text only said she felt like she knew them, not that they WERE someone else she met, like Flowey saying you ARE Chara! Give the medal of insanity to Flowey.

...Actually, don't. He's actually half-right. Chara IS there.

"This feeling of knowing things that haven't happened is what she meant. And that couldn't have been a Chara flashback, that was a legitimate reload deja vu."

Feeling like she already knows them. Not feeling like this has happened before, like the case of, say, Papyrus.

"I mean, we can just say he was too strong of an opponent and be done with it."

Not when Frisk comes into play.

"Plus the fact that he also could have been dodging them (similar to Sans, after all, Asgore knows about the buttons, so he should know about this too... maybe the reason he didn't dodge during our battle was because of the guilt, which was distracting him)."

Actually, he was trying to lose. Which he would have done with the previous six.

"If you wanna stick to the meta being canon, that is."

Yeah, the problem is less on how he could have beat them if he wanted, and more on why he wasn't feeling the guilt when the other humans showed up.

"She did."

When did she mention having these feelings with the other humans? Sure, she has it with us, but remember, it's pretty obvious we have the power.

"All the major characters did. Asgore double so, as he nods to us telling him we fought before all the time (he doesn't remember, but isn't surprised and understands why it's happening)."

Yeah, he does. Remember? He knows aspects of the HUD and mechanics too? He probably knows the concept of saves?

"As if the cave continued there, until reaching the surface. Or as if there was an actual (although pointless) door there. I thought the barrier generates its own light? Hmm..."

It doesn't. I never said it did. In fact, my argument was that it reflected light from everywhere, but let sunlight in, because NOTHING can exit other than powerful beings, and anything can enter. And under that argument, we need not see light radiate from the barrier-Not unless we should expect sunlight without the Barrier. And we don't see this sunlight in Pacifist, so rule that out. The most reasonable explanation is that the Barrier, alongside Asgore's room, is what lies beyond the purple door. The twilight shining through means sunlight IS visible there, placing it closer to the Surface.

"The garden was elsewhere."

Right. Because these are two different rooms.

"Or carried there."

"I don't. The game does. I suggest that's a plot hole."

As I said, pointed out, that invisible wall CANNOT be the Barrier. It doesn't fit. We can't enter the Underground through it, which we SHOULD be able to. Not only that, but as I say earlier in this post, twilight shines through the Barrier, meaning sunlight should be visible from the Surface ahead. The fact that we don't see it through the purple door implies Asgore's room, and with it, the Bartier, is closer to the Surface than Room 2-Ergo, beyond the purple door.

"But we don't want a soup. We want a steak. Something we can make more sense out of."

At least it's a more conpact soup, as I say what the facts are instead of scattering pieces all over the place! Sense CAN be made when the individual mechanics are established, and that's my next step.

"So be it if the canon doesn't make any sense. Bad dog, the lore of your game sucks."

Yeah, but this place is about Undertale. Here, canon is what matters when theorizing. Once again, Undertale, not Fanontale.

"Well you're late to the party, there. As I said, there is nothing left for us. Start doing fanon rather."

That's what fanfiction is for!

"Literally nothing is quantized in the real-world macro cosmos."

So there ISN'T a definite amount of mass and energy in the cosmos? That can be measured im indivisible units? (Though it can be a massive integer)

Wait, did you mean stuff like superposition? Well, technically, there is no superposition. There's one story. But, some things have not been defined by Toby, so we esentially have many equally "canon" worlds of Undertale. If Toby reveals more data, that counts as an observation, and the possibilities shrink-Like a wave function collapses. But, none of that is happening in the canon world that is Undertale. The characters don't see the Surface be multiple possibilities at once, lol.

"The same way I assume. Unless you'd like to brief me on your "post-pacifist surface features no HUD" theory?"

Yeah, it is likely the same way. Though, how the humans interact with each other, things like the nature of the city that the credits take place in..

"Yeah. That's the meta. The game is sentient. Break the meta once and you may do it any number of times you'd like to, because what's the difference, right? I mean, we may both agree on this one, but I'm sure some fans will disagree and say that Flowey actually changing the name of the game is canon... the same people who believe that crashes are canon, probably."

Yeah, it probably is the same people.

"The scientists. There are no scientists here however, we are all on our own."

Let's see, we have Alphys, Sans, Gaster...

Also, while the world's mechanics are completely different than our world's, the concept of science is the same. You still use the same scientific method.

"Good then. Although I must say, it still fits."

You're right, it does. That's why I used it.

"Synonyms don't have to have a textbook definition like that. Ever read anything at all? Metaphors are all over the place in literary works, and so are exaggerations, such as "the mayhem of ball". And it's not limited to just those. You can use them anywhere to sound more fancy. I know my own about this and I'm telling you, that's a perfectly valid synonym."

So why was it only used for yellow?

"That's what time reversal resolves. I'm talking about lies that one purposely hides. This isn't about resolving "I don't know" situations, but about knowing when someone makes something up on the spot and when not. Maybe they fully believe the thing that's acutally a lie. In such case, yellow wouldn't reveal a lie, because it's subjective for each person."

Time reversal can resolve any case, though. Just look at the crime, as it happened!

"We aren't actually doing them, we are just expanding the powers of magic. Something I've established in my AU. The infinity stones thing is just a coincidence."

So.. Why are we talking about stones again?

"I don't recall."

"you really think i'd just stand there? stand there and take it?"

..Why did we expect him to do that? Oh, right, because everybody else did!

..Also, as I said later on, I retract the notion that the inviisble slash MUST be canon, because yes, it wasn't directly stated. The only thing we can take for a fact is that some inviisble attack is a result of pushing the button. I kept the invisible slash for simplicity and sanity's sake.

"No? Such plot hole is not meta. It's purely an unexplained story part."

Right.. Well, the idea is, the line had some importance to it. If WITH the line, someone called it a plot hole, imagine what would happen if the line wasn't there to fill in the gap! Now, there might eventually be a theory that matches what the line said, but there'd probably be more Charrator followers than followers of that theory.

"The monsters must know. They aren't stupid. Can't attack the human? Why exactly is that? And how are they attacking us without us being able to defend ourselves?"

And so they do. They know that turns exist, and that they can't dodge. But.. Finding out why is harder than it seems. They might find out there's an invisible attack quickly, but finding out that it happens after pressing some invisible button, and then being able to predict WHEN it will happen is far more difficult. As Malice had said, you're comparing scientists to non-scientists.

"I'm not seeing any numbers behind that."

The number of villagers there was far higher than two. It was definitely at least six, but likely at least thirty.

"That's it, no?"

Seriously, what can it be?

...We both agree that Flowey knows about the HUD. Though, saying that he can summon things other than bullets.. Well.. I would say that would deduct some Occam points, but humans DID create a Barrier, so..

Yeah, the only thing I have to ask is what the FILE SAVED and FILE LOADED is.