Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180703002545

"It is really difficult to pull that off. For the soul, it is easier to just reload."

I guess one could argue the SOUL doesn't know if it'll have the DT required to do such a thing..

"But why did he load for such a trivial action?"

So that we'd be thrust back into his fight, rather than sent to the overworld, which is what usually happens when you run away from a fight.

"Why didn't he?"

"Exactly. Why. Maybe he was too excited about his newfound ability to feel? idk"

..Oh, look at that big 'ol plot hole! Yeah, this would be why I took the other approach instead. The simpler one in this regard:Frisk had the power, and since determination (power) is linked to determination (feeling), it can fluctuate like that-Not to mention a link between this and Undying, an actual case that is CLEARLY a DT fluctuation. How can Undying possibly NOT be a DT flux? As right now, I take Undying as proof that DT fluctuations are canon, and link her to Frisk in Asriel's fight.

"It was psychological. They literally wanted to die, after so many vain attempts at leaving the underground."

So, you think they tried doing this several times before, and gathering all the humans was a last-ditch effort? (Remember, it would be the final timeline that we get to see in the tapes) Alright, that wor- wait.. Wouldn't Asriel remember these events? It's pretty clear from Frisk's case that monsters DO recall events that happened in previous timelines. Yet, Asriel doesn't appear to recall previous timelines in the tapes. Not only that, but it took "Chara"(actually Frisk) to override his determination a second time (The first being Chara loading to try again on the Surface) for him to realize that Chara has more determination than him, and thus Flowey wouldn't have the save ability anymore? Why was there no mention of Asriel feeling like it happened before? He SHOULD get this feeling.

"I meant Chara killing themselves. They managed to die without going back in time."

That. Yeah, Chara clearly wanted to die then.

"If I recall, it was Alphys who first named this power. So in that case, them saying that was probably just metaphorical."

Do note that they weren't told to use their determination, only to stay determined. Perhaps it had been theorized that determination helps one stay alive longer, which would have been confirmed eventually, but never that it was a physical power capable of changing fate itself! (Also, Chara relays that to us every tine our SOUL shatters. So.. Why?) Besides, what would they mean in this regard? Chara was dying, and that was plain obvious. "Stay determined"? ..Why? How is that supposed to help?

"Frisk's boost was circumstantial, and so was the lack of DT for the other kids. There is no proof that Frisk's DT was any different. As I said many times already, if they had the DT, the battles against Flowey and Asriel wouldn't be any different from their usual battles."

The case of Asriel WASN'T any different in terms of powers. In Omega Flowey, remember, I said there WAS a boost for Asriel. Frisk had a little LESS than Omega Flowey's six SOULs worth of DT.

"It is unreasonable to assume that Frisk's soul has more DT capacity than 7 human souls (one of which being the combination of thousands of monster souls) combined."

It doesn't naturally. Asriel was a special boosted case. Think of it like the Undying case. Monsters can never naturally come back to life, yet Undyne was able to do it anyway, because of her determined state. She became SO determined that she rivaled the determination of an Amalgamate. Naturally, it's only around 5. A 50% jump from that is 7.5.

"Sure, they didn't have the DT. But they didn't lack it physically, they lacked the motivation to utilize it."

Is now a good time to mention how Undying literally melts from determination in the end? Just like an Amalgamate would? Which is something that happens because monsters can't PHYSICALLY hold that much DT?

"This is how an absence of DT is explained with humans. Monsters may be able to generate it, but human souls are so precise with their levels of DT, that they're used to measure soul power (which is nothing but DT, may I remind you, there is no hidden element at play here)."

Asriel's fight debunks this idea. DT is not SOUL power. Else Frisk could break the Barrier themselves while in this state, thus avoiding the entire fight. Determination is the will to live, and is only used for THAT (and SLR). It does not determine one's strength in magic, or really anything else for that matter. LV would be a better indicator, as it physically changes your stats, but we know that's not right either, as it too changes, unlike SOUL power, which never changes. Every human always has the exact same amount of SOUL power, and are the same as each others' (Yes, that includes red SOULs.)

"Ergo, for them, it is the amout of DT their bodies can utilize at once. If they lack motivation, they lack the ability to extract from this large pool and use the DT physically. I like to believe that DT is physical, because it can be extracted."

It's esentially physical and magical at the same time. Considering that extracting it into a flower is enough to bring it to life, we can't use only physics to explain this. There is clearly some magic in the works. As any biologist would know, there is no one substance that can just bring any vessel to life-Let alone give a plant intelligence close to that of a human! There HAS to be some magic involved!

"Ergo, it is found in humans, and so, any fluctuations cannot be due to the DT disappearing, but due to the levels of it changing outside the soul, as it flows in and out of it, or something like that."

Well, at least now we have the same idea and our differences are only in interpretations, like Many-Worlds vs Copenhagen. What's important is how much DT we have, not what happens to DT that we have no longer. (Frankly, my interpretation was that the reaction that generated DT was simply undone-It decomposed BACK into its parts. It wasn't even a stable reaction, only held together by magic-The magic that's keeping it together loses stability, causing it to split back into its parts.)

"Monsters must generate it for themselves, as they cannot have large amounts of it in them permanently. Humans don't need to generate it, but having it locked within the soul is useless for them."

True. At least we both reach the same conclusion that DT can fluctuate.

"Moreoever, please explain to me again, where did you get the idea that red = DT from."

The Asriel fight, as you stated, 600% boost is a stretch, so Frisk's DT would naturally be bigger than normal to make it NOT a stretch, there's the fact that the only two anomalies are Frisk and Flowey, Frisk's power brought Chara back, when the other six humans didn't, Frisk has shown immense determination throughout their run, it's as if that's their only consistent personality trait... And Bravery didn't try a Genocide Run.

...Okay, that last one's probably a stretch. But, the rest?

"All the other children could save, load and reset, and the only thing they failed at is Asgore. But that was just Asgore in his natural form. In fact, it was Asgore who failed."

Um, no. He succeeded. Six times. The containers prove it. Unless they failed before Asgore, which they have no reason to do if they could SAVE/LOAD..

"He failed to defeat Frisk, for his own faults."

Oh, you mean how he didn't smash the FIGHT button! We've already gone over this-When he declared that SEVEN souls would be used, he ALREADY started hoping that nobody would fall, and have to die. He wouldn't smash that button for the other humans either. He wanted to lose the whole time, while not looking like he's TRYING to lose.

"So naturally, Frisk wouldn't stand a chance against Asgore either."

Well, not without a fight button. But Justice still has a chance. Fire away, yellow SOUL!

"Of course, then there's the fact that their soul refused, but that was technical. They couldn't go back by dying, but didn't want to die either. This situation never occured for the other kids. Those never lost their ability, while in the middle of a battle they needed to win, while being motivated by a ghost. Those rather gave up out of frustration."

So.. Like with Sans. Okay.

"So I don't see any reasons to believe that the red soul is any special, really. The things it accomplishes can be perfectly rationalized without giving it any fancy abilities, and that's the completely reasonable Occam razor principle."

Or can it? Let's find out together.

"It never did. It was simply accepted as the common truth and people moved onto different questions rather."

I guess I missed those early days..

"Because it died. When you drop a glass, it shatters."

It's supposed to persist. Like the six SOULs in Asgore's containers.

"When a human dies, the soul persists due to DT. Conversely, when the soul is shattered, the body dies. Here, the soul effectively restored itself thanks to its DT, before its death could harm the body. You could say the essence never left it, never disconnected itself from the body, so it didn't harm the body in any way."

So.. You're saying attacks at the SOUL destroy the SOUL first.. But yet, Asgore's magical attacks at the other six kids' SOULs did NOT shatter the SOULs at all, but instead, the SOUL persisted like it usually does? Well.. I guess red IS special after all, isn't it?

"When the soul shatters, the body dies."

Yes, but it's not instantaneous. Otherwise, LOADing by death would be impossible.

"We did die every time. And maybe the same happened to Flowey. He did die, he just didn't know it, because the moment it happened, he was already transported back through time, and when you die, you lose your consciousness, so even if he was dead for more than a mere instance, he didn't remember anything from it."

Except he DID remember. He remembered leaving the mortal coil, and exclaming that he didn't want to die. THAT is when he LOADed his SAVE point. Yeah, I'm using Flowey's WHOLE story on the matter here, not leaving that part out.

"Which makes no sense, considering he had more soul power than Omega Flowey."

Which is exactly why this is proof that DT can fluctuate. We have a case of it happening right there.

"And as for the reason why, I think I stated that already."

Side effect of Asriel's powers? Why can't we say it's a side effect of Frisk's DT boost, something that has actually been demonstrated to be doable from Undyne turning into Undying? That'd CLEARLY be the simpler choice-Using something that's already been demonstrated, rather than making up something completely different, just to keep the theory that DT is SOUL power, when Alphys clearly distinguishes the two.

"Besides, we couldn't really fight back. And all he wanted was to keep us in, to prevent us from leaving the undeground. Leaving the battle is exactly what he wants, although he also wants a reset."

No, he explicitly said he wanted to WIN, so that he can reset, and for you to lose over and over.

"After I defeat you, and take full control of the timeline.. I just want to reset everything. All your progress.. Everyone's memories.. I'll bring them all back to zero!"-Asriel

Leaving the battle isn't "losing". He wants to play with us, thinking that we're Chara. This is not an adequate explanation. So.. I ask again:Why didn't Asriel SAVE, and take full control right there and then? Remember, I already gave my answer:He COULDN'T. And WHY he couldn't was because of the boost I talked about, which worked like with Undying's boost.

"The only way we can go against him, is to endure the battle. If we die, he resets, good for him. If we leave, again, good for him. So the only thing left is just to... not die, I guess. Hence the refuse."

No, if we leave, we're not fulfilling what he said he wanted. Beaides, if we leave, and never return, we're STILL not playing with Asriel anymore, so if the reason why you thought leaving meant he won was because of the line "If you leave the underground satisfied, you'll 'win', if you ', win', you won't want to 'play!' with me anymore", well.. Leaving and not returning isn't playing either. He wants to PLAY. That means fighting over and over again.

"I don't know what does this have to do with resetting."

SAVing and RESETTING are strongly linked. At least as linked as traits are to modes, if not more.

"A reset would trasport him back to the moment he first gained consciousness, when Alphys returned his body to Asgore's garden."

I suppose that's the most likely option-Otherwise we'd be assuming something special about Frisk, when in fact that only thing that makes them unique is that they're the playable character, which means nothing in canon. Which means when Asriel was going to reset everything, and bring it all back to zero, he either:

A-Was going to do just what we both agreed a reset does..

B-Somehow wanted to erase our SAVE, and force us to LOAD that.. But.. How?

Considering the lifespan of a golden flower is only around a few months, Flowey wasn't re-born that long ago at all. At most, it was a few months ago. So.. The idea that he'd wait out just a little while before Frisk comes around again isn't too far-fetched.. But, considering the case of SAVing/LOADing and how it doesn't affect the Surface, what if that would alter the timeline instead? Since the Underground is casually isolated from the Surface (Humans SAVing and LOADing on the Surface isn't possible), Frisk would be brought to just after they fell, but continue to travel back in time with Flowey.. Hence, we WOULD start over, but things would be ever-so slightly different-We'd be brought earlier in the timeline. ..This seems like the logical result of Asriel's reset he described. That or time itself will ALSO get cut off, and Frisk is only sent back to the time they fell, with everything going on as before.

"What are you even talking about here? Also, the topic of erasing the saves is a bit flimsy, since ours definitely wasn't erased. Maybe he did erase the saves of the other children, since he had their souls, but then again, it wasn't the souls themselves that were doing this, it was the combined system, aka Omega Flowey doing this."

So.. When you said he erased their saves, you didn't mean that? ...Well, I guess I'll just assume you meant "overwrite". In that case, I have no problem with how he used the other SOULs by your take.

"Why do people yell at their computers when they lag? Are they sentient or something?"

Do the computers actually RESPOND to said yelling? No they don't. You argue that by Asriel esentially doing the same thing, it would actually RESPOND, and give Asriel the power. Not only that, your wording was that it had trouble distunguishing them, as in, organically, not computery, which would just be lag, or one of the things a computer would normally do in such a situation, which I deal with below.

"Technically, yes. I believe this system was created by Gaster, and he worked with some sort of a computer code, to generate the basic "if else then" statements for this power."

So.. Gaster made the power to SAVE/LOAD. Powered by determination, likely explaining the DT extractor. I don't know what your take is, but perhaps his motivation for this would be to start experimenting with the timeline? ..But by giving it to the most determined, he's essentially giving the power to a human rather than himself.. ..I can't seem to find his motovation for this. It might take a while to figure this out..

"But I still don't believe that the power looks exactly as we see it. I mean, chaning one's vision to a black/white screen, restraining your movement to buttons, manipulating the opponent into thinking that fighting in a white rectangle is normal..."

...Hey, the monsters have adapted to the basic turn-based combat quite well! ..Almost as if that was ALWAYS how it was. (Hey, why isn't Intellegent Design a possibility? In Undertale's world, this seems more and more likely the further we look. Why couldn't the world of Undertale have a creator? Like, canonically a creator? Not as a game designer, but as, well.. A deity?)

"You see, none of that is necessary to explain the plot, so I'm not accepting it."

You just said that you believed it! Oh.. You meany my red SOUL take and the HUD.

"In fact, it's harmful to the plot, because if this were true, then that only confirms that Undertale is self-aware and that nothing we do matters."

What? Just because the HUD is a physical law made by an intellgent designer? I don't see any references to them being inisde a game from that. Just because their world has mechanics made by an intellegent designer doesn't mean it's self-aware. Nobody said their creator had to be Toby Fox, or that their world was a game. It just means that Intellegent Design is correct in the world of Undertale. (Though WHO the designer(s) is/are, we don't know.)

"Toby wanted to integrate this system into the in-game world as a way of saying "screw the gaming meta", not to create more gaming meta."

Intellgent Design does not imply gaming meta. It implies theism, and that's not a concept exclusive to gaming.

"Yes, this does contradict what Sans's battle presented. However, that route was all about the meta, that is, playing the game like any other RPG game (e.g. more LV = the goal). If you believe that turns are real, you may as well believe that what Sans was saying was literally what was happening."

It IS literally what happened. Frisk wanted to see what happened, and that created distortions in the spacetime continuum (Sans, you said the name wrong.), just as time travel normally would. They're definitely determined, as Sans said. I never once said what Sans said ISN'T what happened. When did he explicitly mention that we're in a game? ..That's right, he didn't.

"I take it as if his battle was the highest point of Frisk's delusion, because what is all this theorizing good for, when we can simply say "because Toby did it so"..? You can use this argument anywhere if you believe in such meta."

YOU'RE the one who uses "Because Toby did it so" as an argument, whenever I find a contradiction! And yes, you CAN use the argument anywhere all the same. Nice that you finally figured that out. Hence why I've opted to not use it at all.

"But what if there's no meta, the battles don't work this way, but rather the same way that combat does irl, what if there's no Toby, no creator whatsoever?"

I didn't say there was a Toby here. I said there was intellegent design. And said designer only determined the laws of physics of their world, all the mechanics. Nothing more. The story was NOT made by said creator, it happened naturally. Also, Frisk is not a "chosen one", in case you're wondering. Think of it less like game meta, and more like intellegent design/theism, and it will make more sense. But, of course, only the Undertale universe itself came from said creator-Other than the mechanics themselves, "Goddidit" is NOT an explanation! (Also, the creator might not even be a god.)

"In short, if you believe the world works like a game, then it is a game. Saying it is a game, while not being a game, is an oxymoron."

If I SOMEHOW gained god-like powers, and created my own, PHYSICAL universe, and gave it game-like properties, is it a game, or is it a universe?

"Lastly, back to my Gaster head canon, some people, like Camila Cuevas, believe that Gaster literally turned the entire world into this meta world, where all of this does make sense, because it has simply been said so. I refuse to accept such belief, because no mortal being could possibly have the power or resources to accomplish something like this, that is, change the LOGIC of the universe itself (even if it applies to the underground only)."

Exactly. You said you believed this, but you don't, and neither do I. No mortal being could do such a thing. Therefore, it must have been designed that way from the start. An IMMORTAL made it that way, when they created the universe!

"I merely accept the idea that this power uses computational methods to allocate the essences within its scope, and may have troubles distinguishing between singular units and composite systems, because it wasn't designed for such task."

...Why would Gaster fail to consider such an obvious possibility? He of all monsters would know about the soul absoprtion ability.

"Which also means that the only reason that Flowey/Asriel had more power than us was because the power wasn't completely mechanical, and could, at least to some sense, adapt (which would make sense, considering it works with essences, and essences are the brains of a soul - they store the consciousness of a being)."

So, you're saying that since it worked WITH essence, it started to gain essence of itself, gaining consiousness? And therefore, Gaster just created sci-fi AI? (Not to be confused with the more scientific term, which is NOT sentient, but still far more intellegent than we can ever hope to become ourselves, which simply checks for the way to maximize its utility function.)

Well, there's just one problem with that. If that were the case, the system would NOT gain a mind of its own.. Instead, monsters would actually start to BECOME the system, and so would humans. The machine would transform from a machine to a hivemind.

"My explanation would be, that the least significant if else statement would get scrapped first, in the case of a contradiction."

Yes, that makes sense. But.. There's no contradiction here. I was making my own explanation, not raising a contradiction yet. If the lag was so bad that we fully died before it got our request to LOAD, the LOAD would fail, as the recipent for the LOAD now no longer exists, and thus, Asriel gets the power.

"However, I don't believe that it works based on a computer code per se."

You just SAID that it was a digital machine! Is it digital, or is it not?

"Such code wouldn't even ADDRESS the idea of combined soul systems."

Why not? You COULD write code for that!

"No, it is something much more organic, but nothing sentient/moral either."

...Organic/life means it IS sentient.

"Remeber that Gaster shattered across time and space. Maybe it is the leftover of his essence still trying to do its best even though it has no idea what's actually going on anymore."

So dead Gaster IS the "machine"? Hmm.. That one I'll have to think about for a while. But.. Isn't it rude to talk about someone when they're listening? Wait, how is he listening?

"Yes, 600% is a stretch. But if red is determination, it's not 600%. It's more like 50%. (5*1.5=7.5)"

"Frisk's soul power is equal to 1. That's how Omega Flowey could do what he did. If Frisk was stronger, that wouldn't have happened."

Um, no. Omega Flowey's DT was equal to 6. 5 is less than 6-Omega Flowey would win here.

"Also, you're multiplying. An "increase" requires you to add."

You add 50% OF 5, which is identical to just multiplying the whole thing by 1.5. 50% of 5 is 2.5, add that to 5, and you get the same 7.5.

"If you add 100% of something to that thing, you've got a double."

Yep. Doing that with 5 gets us 10, not 6. 50%'s enough.

"That's why I said 600%, because 1+6 = 100%+600% = 700% = 7."

And why I said 600% is a stretch, but red being determination makes this all moot, since we can start with 5 now. 5+2.5=100%(5)+50%(5)=150%(5)=7

"No, a reset is going back to the moment of your inception in the system, as proven by Frisk, who, upon a reset, spawns in an area with no save point."

Yes, your inception. A "New Game". Before there WERE any SAVEs you used.

"Also, you are forgetting again, the game demonstrated that the two are separated in the case that the bearer of the power has a composite soul."

That was never demontsrated-You're confusing your theories with canon again. Frisk can both LOAD and RESET in Asriel's fight, while Asriel can't reset, and doesn't have control over the timeline. He also doesn't demonsrate having the power to save or load. Flowey can both SAVE and LOAD in HIS fight, and we can't do any of those, or reset!

"He does nothing. We come back to his save."

Yes. HIS save. Not OUR save, and not right where we left off. The only thing that is kept is how many SOULs we helped, but Flowey demontsrated with his LOAD after his first death that the state of the SOULs is not affected by said loading.-The SOULs then revolted, rather than being returned to their state before being called.

"If not, we would come back to our last save - before the fight with Asgore."

That would be if WE loaded. We DIDN'T load.

"I couldn't care less about the opinion of someone who thinks the monsters are so dumb they don't even realize we are stuck in a white box each time they fight us."

They do realize this. That's why they aim for the SOUL, and bound their attacks by the same white box!

"No, the power is not sentient. It allocates the essences in its scope like a machine would, and then simply compares them."

How exactly does this "comparison" work? Like a machine, or like a sentient being? You seem to be flip-flopping on which it is.

"How would it know?"

"The essence was not torn away from the soul the moment it cracked. So it quickly refused to prevent dying."

Oh, it figured it out after it tried and failed to LOAD. That makes far more sense. ..Except not really. The choice to LOAD doesn't happen until after it FINISHES shattering. If it wasn't for that detail, you'd make a valid point.

"Not by dying."

Sure, not by dying, but we can still LOAD by any other means of LOADing. Which means we still have the power, and Asriel still doesn't utilize it. So, this once again implies that it just "forgot" about all that and gave it back to Frisk, all by mistake. ...Yeah.

"Because that's when we last saved, and because Toby programmed the game so."

There's you and your "Because Toby made it so" arguments ago. The same one you just talked about earlier.

"Yes. That's exactly what I'm talking about. When we do that, we get moved to where we last saved. And we are Frisk in-game, not Asriel."

Which means WE HAD THE POWER HERE. Also, you said we ran away here. "By running away, we get moved to..." No, we didn't run away this time. We loaded here. Stop getting Omega Flowey and Asriel mixed up.

"Yes. Because Flowey saved in that fight."

He also saved before the fight, as evidenced by the Flowey's World SAVE. ..Why didn't Asriel again? He already knew about this mechanic from his experience as Omega Flowey.

"Only those who have previously saved have a file. No saved file = LV 0, and such LV doesn't exist."

That's what we call a blank file. One with no data on it.

In all those movies, physical objects were moved. So I don't think it's fair comparing magic in Undertale to them. Summoning magical attacks is most likely way different from controlling physical objects with magic. Sure, with them, you need to focus on each boulder you want to lift individually, but that's not the same as simply throwing pure magic attacks about. Having to focus on every single piece of magic we summon would be unwieldy."

Exactly why monsters are prideful on humans not being aboe to represent themselves with magic.

"So much so I don't think the humans would find magic very practical, let alone be able to summon a spell no monster would be able to break."

It's ONE. SIMPLE. BARRIER. That's ONE piece of magic. I don't see the problem with focusing on ONE piece of magic. And they don't want it to change, so they don't have to do any more concentration after making it, as it is to remain stationary!

"Remember, they have an essence. If everything they need to make their spells automated is encoded in that thing, then the problem's solved."

Encoded in their essence? That's likely how monsters do it. Humans don't necessarily have that ability. In fact, I would argue they DON'T, and that's the reason why they can't express themselves through magic. Their SOUL trait isn't white.

"By having a birthday card summon a bullet pattern. Else it's not a card. You can't exactly "open" a bullet pattern either. It's doing whatever its creator wishes it to. How does the creator know when someone touches it, and whether it is the person they're sending the card to?"

Simple-They DON'T.

"Why not send a normal card with a bullet pattern included in the first place? That would be akin to creating an artifact: a magic-imbued physical object. Which would make more sense. Afaik, there are several objects in the game that could be considered artifacts, from the items of the previous children to Burgerpants's hat."

...Burgerpants' hat. Really? Also, the closest item of the fallen humans I could find to an artifact is the Empty Gun, which was probably used by using those magical yellow bullets that the yellow mode offers.

"THIS is what you need to have humans do if you want to show a contradiction."

"Only that? Can't I for example suggest something that debunks this, as well as something else? Perhaps, the entirety of magic?"

Only if you prove it to be the case. To debunk a theory, you have to prove it wrong, not just present an alternative that ignores evidence from the intro. You want to show that there's a contradiction. So actually prove that there's a contradiction.

"Because that WOULD aamof include all the cases of birthday cards made out of bullet patterns... or any other kinds of bullet-pattern cards, sheets or whatever objects for that matter. I don't understand why we must be bullet-pattern-resembling, birthday-related, and card-shaped specific on this one."

Because that's what the book said. But really, the bullet pattern is the only important part here, because that's the only one that actually involves expressing yourself with magic.

"And the books say they can't. So they can't."

Except they don't.

"One of them is not correct. And I choose to believe the books, considering how the intros can be misleading, or don't always have to tell the full truth."

The intro that is more objective on the storytelling is more believable than books that is just a bunch of monsters speculating. But, as I said, they can both be true.

"Also because I see no point in false, contradictory information appearing later on in the game for no reason."

It's monsters speculating. Think in-universe. Look at it like a detective would.

"You can say the books talk about a very specific case all you want, but all you'll get from me is a thesis on how very blurry the line between what counts as "expressing yourself" and what doesn't is. I am also avoidant of the intro, because it's not canon to the story. It is just an intro after all."

Its purpose is to tell the story. Containing false info doesn't fulfill that role.

"It's no one's memory, vision, or anything."

Chara proves otherwise with their sepia cutscene of Asriel.

"Just something to explain the basic story to the player."

Explaining the story, exactly. Not telling lies about the story.

"And the same goes for Flowey manipulating with the intro, as well as manipulating with the game's name (this goes for Mettaton's musical too) - not canon. This is on a whole new level than Sans speaking of turns, or Flowey supposedly talking to the player at times - those can be explained within the bounds of the story, albeit through ways I am not very fond of. But this one is a pure no-no from me."

You're right on one thing:It IS a whole new level. But Flowey easily could have interrupted the story that was trying to be told to us, and as for the name change-

-Wait, name change?! |FLOWEYTALE|

...Well, at least THIS time, it was never brought up in the story, and wasn't even commented on by Flowey or Mettaton, in these regards. So it can actually make sense to draw the line here.

PS:"Undertale the Musical" wasn't Mettaton's doing, by the way. That was the name changing itself to reflect the musical Mettaton was performing at the time. Not brought up in story, therefore, not canon. That's like calling the Joystick Confic canon, because it's different depending on whether or not you have a SAVE file. Remember, my main argument for the turns being canon was that they were explicitly mentioned, and was therefore a plot point.

"Another reason I don't believe that humans have magic. Their cities look too much like our cities."

Hey, who said some of those schools can't be magic schools?

"The deadpan simple one I meant rather. Since you're being nitpicky again."

We're supposed to be. Theories can't have holes in them, lest they be proven wrong.

"Those weren't humans, even though they looked like humans. Kinda like boss monsters look like goats, while not being actual goats. There, now let's move on."

Why aren't they Boss Humans again?

"I never noticed them lying ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

Compare their plan as dicussed in Tape 5, with what they were actually planning on doing, when it comes to putting the body there, to kill EVERYONE in the village, which, mind you, is far more than six.

"You didn't address the thing you were replying to here at all."

You were implying that your third race theory was farfectched, and thus, came up with the thing I was replying to in reaponse. I then stated that hey, maybe, another way to make it less farfetched is to just call these special creatures Boss Humans, as that's essentially what they are. No need to invent a third race when we can have Boss Humans, as the human version of Boss Monsters. I even demontsrated how it would actually make sense as well! I consider Boss Humans as a good alternative theory. I used that theory once before-I forget how you responded to it. The actual part about humans losing their magic? That was discussed below, in the same spot that it was originally discussed.

"Then how come the souls of the 6 humans didn't persist after the barrier broke?"

They DID. They just got away, because they were free from their containers.

"It's clearly stated that the absolute, full potential of 7 human souls is required to break the barrier, as that's how much was used to seal it. I mean, the souls are used as a metric. So the variation of their absolute soul power must be very minimal or non-existent. And I don't think the power of 1 human soul refers to the maximum amount that can be taken away from it without the soul dying, since that COULD vary from person to person."

Yes, it is the whole power. But, using up all the power just means you have no power, not that you're dead. You're once again needlessly fusing two things that Alphys clearly separated. The SOUL power will need to get restored, the wizards have none left.

"False. The game proves this in no way, and logic is telling us that their bodies are already decomposed at that time."

What, do monsters not know about mummification?

...Also we land on Chara's body, with their essence, which is how our power awakens Chara in the first place. But considering a previous argument that I've made to explain Charrator, I suppose I have to agree with you here. (Essentially, it was that the reason why Chara isn't physical is because their vessel was unusable, unlike Flowey.) What ACTUALLY happened was that the SOULs just got away. It also means monsters DON'T use mummification.

"There is nothing the souls can go back to. And if they were to persist, we would see them - I see no reason why would Asgore hide them away from everyone again."

He didn't. They got away, passed on to the afterlife. After all, we don't see billions of SOULs on the Surface, from all the humans that died over the years!

"So since we don't see them, the truth is simple, they did not survive the attack that broke the barrier."

They met the same fate as the SOULs of all the dead humans that we don't see on the Surface.

"And here's why the other souls did: the monster souls are said to be equal to just over a single human soul. Ergo, not all the soul power of each one was used up for this. That's how they survived. However, with the humans, they had no choice. With the monsters providing 1 soul worth of power, the 6 souls had to provide a full 6 souls worth of power. They couldn't share the burden among themselves like the monster souls did. 6 - 6 = 0, ergo, they died."

Why not combine it WITH some of the monsters?

Let's, for a moment, say that all together, we have 6+1.001. Why can't we make it 5.9995+1.0005?

"Also, yeah. They didn't kill themselves. But still provided that full power of a single human soul. How's that possible?"

Because they provided it, they didn't permanently erase it.

"They weren't humans, but someone far stronger. If the game speaks of "the power of a human soul" - and using that as a metric, I conclude it means the soul in its entirety. Not the amount needed to """kindly""" take away from the soul so that it """kindly""" doesn't die."

It would only die if DT and SOUL power are the same, and Alphys' entries say they AREN'T THE SAME. Also, does the idea of Boss Humans work?

"DO they now?"

Yes. That's why we had the intro and how legends say those who climb never return. That's also evidenced by the case with Chasriel:The humans recognized Asriel as a monster.

"Not for more control, but to constrain the power. These artifacts would be the only last remaining magic left in the human world. New generations would grow up oblivious to magic and believing in science. That's why these would get hidden away. To keep it simple for everybody."

..To keep it simple? No conspiracies? ...How could it NOT be a conspiracy? I don't see any legitimate reason to hide magic from everyone. Unless..


 * Only a power equal to that of seven human SOULs can break the barrier|

....

Could the wizards THEMSELVES be responsible for this? To prevent a group of monster supporters from breaking the barrier?

"Oh, you meant that. Yes, I do think that constraining humans to just 7 types of personalities is ridiculous."

Indeed. And that's exactly what you seemed to be doing in this case.

"If there's no soul mixing, then there's only 7 pure types of souls. At this point, we can either say that all humans of a certain soul color are the same, because no mixing = no variation, or we can go the hash way and say that every type of personality falls into one of these 7 cases (my interpretation)."

Yeah, the latter works better.

"If you like trait mixing, sure, that could explain the large variety of personalities, but the traits themselves (e.g. patience, bravery, integrity etc.) don't make any sense. Why these, and why 7? Why did Toby not choose the big five, or the HEXACO system? (google those)"

Oh, that? You know, there's one lost reply that I made long ago on this thread that you never replied to. It was the lastpost in our FIRST conversation. Somewhere in there, I actually went through each one of those, plus more, and talked about the seven trait system. You had given me links, and I decided that I'd go through ALL of them instead of just one. Here's a part of it:

"Openness to experience and conscientiousness are both just integrity. Extraversion TOO can be considered integrity, perhaps with a hint of bravery? Agreeableness is clearly kindness. Neuroticism is a lack of integrity and bravery, and perhaps a lack of perseverance as well. Honesty-Humility is what you get when you have integrity as your dominant trait, and kindness as a close second. The Dark Triad is what happens when you remove these things. Self-esteem? MORE integrity. Harm avoidance? Kindness. Novelty seeking is a lack of perseverance. SPS is a neurological condition, not a personality trait. Perfectionism? Like Papryus? Well, nyeh heh heh-That trait is what happens when you have a LOT of justice, and like NO integrity whatsoever, to the point where you start imposing justice on YOURSELF, for every little thing you do wrong. You shame yourself this way, then say everyone else will ALSO not like you. Alexithymia is a very interesting case… It’s the real world equivalent to what happens when you lack a SOUL in Undertale. Rigidity is the lack of flexibility, and flexibility can be defined as a combination of integrity (be creative, like you point out later on), and perseverance (take notes! See what works and what doesn’t! Don’t just give up!)"

And it goes on. I went through every system as detailed as that. Point is, the seven traits DO work as a system. To see the whole post, just use the Ctrl+F shortcut, and paste a bit of that excerpt I gave you-It's an exact quote.

"Hence my argument that such system is unwieldy, silly even. Why would the traits mix, if the game didn't imply such thing at all? And why mix, when you can simply introduce new ones into the system?"

Because they're literally mixing these traits together. All these extra traits can be defined as mixtures of the seven.

"When you're already adding the headcanon of mixing traits, why not make it even simpler and say there's more than just these 7 traits? That would certainly make explaining new types of personalities a lot easier."

While also contradicting the BALL game. Besides, you yourself said more than seven traits can't exist. By the way, white's only for monsters-That's why THAT didn't appear in the game. Humans aren't fluent in magic-Magic can't be their trait!

"You're still giving red a special treatment. Stop that and we can continue being friends. Honestly, at this point, you're in pure denial."

The only reason why red can't be zero is that if it was, that means no DT, which means no life. Everything else is fair game.

"When your theories start sounding like the Glitchtale lore, that's when you should stop and think about yourself."

Glitchtale literally added a black trait out of nowhere, assumed that the game can create new characters to fix itself (Betty), AND both made the HUD canon and not canon at the same time. Also, negative bravery is not an inverted trait that can be used to one's advantage. Negative bravery just means you are fearful, not that you can CAST fear. Then again, you could just say that's a lack of bravery. In fact, I'll go ahead and do that. Zero bravery means you're the biggest coward known to man, deathly scared of literally everything. ...Which nobody is.

"Camila Cuevas pulled her ideas out of DeviantArt's ass. Literally every cringeperson in there believes in that crap. Also that Gaster is the daddy of Sans and Papyrus, also that Papyrus's magic is orange, and that this means Gaster's magic is purple or whatever. OH, and haaaaate is blaaaaaack! Because obviously we NEED to have a black trait!"

Yeah, that black trait makes no sense. By the way, black's the opposite of white, magic. If ANYTHING, black should represent a lack of magic. But, why can't we just call a lack of magic, well.. A lack of magic, so all that means is no white trait for you? ..I dunno, ask all those DeviantArt guys. They've already crossed the line at Gaster's magic being purple. Even saying Papyrus has orange magic is a MASSIVE stretch-We never see that. They only did that because Papyrus is wearing an orange scarf, if I were to guess.. His magic is almost certainly blue, like Sans. That means Gaster's magic as well should be BLUE, if he's their father. (Actually one of the more plausible theories-Sans and Papyrus came out of nowhere according to the Shopkeeper, Gaster was erased from the timeline, so.. If Gaster was their father, then they'd have actually came out of nowhere according to the revised timeline. But yeah, everything below that was really bad.)

"Tell me, truthfully, why do you STILL insist that Frisk is special somehow?"

All the points I've brought up earlier in this post.

"The game presented us the proof that their unique accomplishments weren't so unique after all"

..It didn't.

"and you still keep blaming it on the HUD (which is very questionable)"

When Asgore and Sans confirm its existence

"and the incredible meta ability to stop the undertale.exe program from running (which is not even canon)."

I just said LOADing. That's the only way to LOAD the game without dying, and LOADing this way IS canon. Do you think Flowey died every time he loaded a save in his Omega Form? Sure, sure, Frisk doesn't literally leave the world, but he does LOAD! And the fact that we can't do that in Omega Flowey shows that Toby knows how to make it so that Frisk not having that power actually means we can't do that.

"You choose answers based on questionable concepts over straightforward logical ones. Tell me, how much credibility does that give to your points?"

You choose answers that contradict evidence over ones that actually take everything into account, and have even used "Toby did it" as an argument on multiple occasions. That's not even a questionable concept, that's the equivelant of using a puff of smoke as an argument. Tell me, how much credibility does that give to your points?

"Yes. Due to the large variety of the human mind, two kindness people may be totally different. As you said, there is no connection. That's the con of reducing the human mind to just one of 7 cases."

Indeed. There are more than seven cases. It's just it's out into one of seven groups depending on how everything lines up.

"Even if the algorithm is logical, it's so complicated it's totally nonsenical. However, you are right in that a true cryptographic hash function changes completely if you make only a very small change."

Exactly-And you could then make a drastic change, and if you're lucky, get the same result. Essentially, you have two kindness people who are completely different, and two people of different traits that are nearly identical.

"However, I don't know of a better term to describe what I mean. If you know, please, suggest it."

I myself don't fully get what you mean. Is it similar to how scientists determine what family a species belongs to in their system?

"Justice is more literal here. Accuracy, its other meaning, is therefore connected with patience."

That's not what the trait descriptions themselves say.

"Dealing a resolving strike that's very accurate, you could say. And waiting gives you an opportunity to analyze the situation, just like failing repeatedly does."

Okay, THAT one (for perserveance vs justice) works.

"I connect patience with memory and intelligence"

??? Why not perservance?

"integrity with wisdom (if you are wise, you know what's right)"

Okay, that works.

"perseverance with the divine (the last driving force, after everything has failed, is the prospect of a god)"

..Taking notes to move on is not comparable to asking a god for help. Also, I guess theism confirmed. (In the world of Undertale, that is.)

"red with some sort of a basic concept (root),"

Well, you elaborate more lower down, so I'll comment there.

"orange with emotions (sacral point)"

...Emotions? The LACK of emotions actually makes you braver, as you don't experience fear.

"yellow with goals and ego - e.g. justice (solar plexus)"

..Surefire accuracy is justice. Gold and ego have nothing to do with that.

"and kindness with love, hope and compassion (anahata)."

That one works.

"Form 5-Alright, that explicitly is split into two sub-forms. You can't do that when there's seven traits and seven traits ONLY. There's not two kinds of perserevance SOULs, there is ONE. ONE."

"Form 5 is about defending yourself while attacking at the same time. Very aggressive, but not as stupid as form 1. If perseverance is an indicator of your stamina, if being filled with peseverance turns you into an unstoppable tank, then so be it."

That.. Somewhat makes more sense? I still fail to see what that has to do with perservearing, or with taking nites when you feel trapped..

"All I care about, and I thought you would understand this, is the basic concept behind each one of these."

I figured,if you were going to use these as your explanations, they shouldn't contin holes like that.

"After the development of Vaapad, this one would include it. It takes the best from each one and combines it all under one method. THAT's the underlying concept for this one - the best of the rest. Again, idc about reading more carefully."

There's not supposed to be holes, though. I thought I made that clear, since a very common motif of these discussions is me pointing out holes in your theories.

"But I managed to get the basic concept down at least. Which is all I wanted anyways, a loose but meaningful connection, rather than a mumbo jumbo of overlayed bs to make it all work together without an exception."

The latter of which describes quantum field theory very well.

"Also, about the chakras, in case you're wondering how the hell does the sum of the other parts relate to a person's mental root, then remember, the chakras are a cycle. Your learning starts with red, then goes through orange, yellow, etc, until getting to purple. There, you employ the knowledge you've learned and shift yourself to a new cycle, which once again begins with red and you fearing the new horizons."

All that means is red is your starting point. Any other of the seven could fit the quota as well. Besides, what does one do at the start of the first cycle?

"Chaotic and erratic is not a combat form to begin with."

Your Form 7 explicitly said it was chaotic and erratic.

"This one was meant to employ dark emotions to combat the dark side, to turn them against it - the karma concept, essentially (which is NOT the same as KR, which is based on the amount of times you get hit; no, I'm talking about ACTUAL karma here). If you were to extend the idea of yellow past the concept of bullet shooting, which is something you were meant to do since the moment you began reading that article, you would realize it fits perfectly."

I generalized surefire accuracy, what yellow claims to be, to surefire accuracy of ANYTHING. Scoring a hole-in one would be surefire accuracy. But yes, turning something against itself fits that version of justice.

"You keep talking as if purple HAS to be about taking notes, yellow HAS to be about using guns, et cetera. That's not how it works. Not if you want to extend this idea past its own scope."

We're not supposed to. Its scope is its limits. We can generalize the idea, yes, but we can't flat-out go against its definitons. Sure, yellow doesn't have to be about using guns, but the element of surefire accuracy must remain. Sure, purple doesn't have to be taking PHYSICAL notes, but it must maintain the same element-Remembering (taking note of) details, and using the details to win.

"RED: the combination of all the others, providing a root."

If it was the culimination, it wouldn't be the START. By the way, the root chakra is supposed to be our connection to the earth itself. To nature. To survival. Wait, survival? That fits in with determination! So, is red determination after all?

"ORANGE: strong emotions, fire."

No bravery here. No running right through obstacles!

"YELLOW: energy, ego, using energy and ego to combat itself (something that requires you to be accurate, in a way)."

..Okay then..

"GREEN: kindness, positive/social emotions, love, heart, defense."

Yep, that's a match.

"CYAN: cold analysis, intelligence, opportunity, relativity (taking notes in UT refers to Muffet's battle; of course you're gonna take notes as you keep on persevering; but assigining it to cyan makes more sense)."

It was assigned to purple's flag. About using our notes even when we feel trapped. Considering that we must struggle to get it in the hole to get the flag, we very well did feel trapped here. The evidence speaks for itself-Taking notes is a purple trait. Cyan DOES fit oppertunity perfectly, though.

BLUE: "morality, wisdom, originality, aesthetics"

Yeah, that fits integrity.

"PURPLE: strength, seemingly sourceless power, transcendence."

Emotional strength is the only real link to perserverance we have. Power would more likely be attibuted to either bravery or the red trait.

"And just to top it off, here's the infinity stones I've assigned to each one of these, in the order above, for the lols: nothing, reality, mind, time, space, soul, power. - incredibly, 4 of them match the colors (well, the space stone is kind of ambiguous with its shade of blue, I guess cyan works too). If you're interested, say. This is a whole new area, that connects the traits to the magic. The above explained the traits, but this one aims to explain them in the context of monster magic, which ultimately allowed me to connect it with the infinity stones concept. So say if you want to know more about this, I've relieved you from reading 7 more huge paragraphs over here."

The soul stone controls who lives and who dies. That has nothing to do with making gravity affect your SOUL.

"When it introduced the concept of human soul traits. A white soul is a soul without a trait. Which humans don't have a brain? Are you saying conspiracy theorists have white souls or what? xD"

Suprisingly, they actually do have a brain, and have traits. Wait, are you talking about.. ..No, it can't be.. [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Chick him?] ...Well, maybe he's an exception. ...Actually, no, it's probably best not to underestimate human stupidity. There WILL be a worse one eventually, to prove he at least had SOMETHING not completely wrong. Not to mention, he clearly has bravery to publish this work in the first place. (Hey, it doesn't matter if your trait is used for good, fact is, he has the trait.)

Though really, white is magic. My explanation for a lack of white human SOULs is VERY simple:Humans aren't fluent in magic, so it couldn't define them more than any of the other seven traits could. In fact, they probably always have more bravery than they do magic. (As I've already established that no bravery pretty much means you're deathly scared of everything. That's what happens if you take away literally EVERY bit of bravery away.)

"Yes you DID. Lemme quote that: "Same magic that makes the shield appear in green, and the webs to move across appear in purple."

Why were you speaking of colors when I talked about how DT transforms into magic under the yellow spell?"

I meant the colors, as in the mode colors. You yourself mentioned the yellow mode just by saying "yellow"-I followed up the pattern here. Just as your statement "for harmful yellow," actually meant "for (a) harmful yellow (mode)", "The magic that makes a shield appear in green" meant "The magic that makes a sheild appear in (the) green (mode). Modes was always our context.

"But other than that, you are right, the yellow mode is not the only one where our soul's DT is used to generate magic. Thank you for pointing that out. But remember, that thing wasn't a shield, but a spear. At least, Undyne said so."

A spear that worked as a shield. So, it's both.

"Through how they're described, yes."

Which would mean their properties are also connected.

"The same way a monster would. Through M A G I C. Do humans not have M A G I C ? They both have essences."

That's probably where they differ. While they both have essences, they operate differently. Monster essence is their dust, and humans are made of far more than just dust, and it's not the same kind of dust. Perhaps their essences aren't imbued with magic? That, like I suggested earlier, humans can only use magic artifically because of that? Using actual science, rather than it being something you naturally know?

"Perhaps the essence could encode the instructions. It is magical after all, it would know how to process it natually, unlike the human brain."

Monster essence is their dust, and thus, easily to put codes in, and do stuff like that with. Human essence? Well..

"You're literally asking about waves at this point. Waves."

Sin waves aren't the same as natural waves, which always expand outwards. But, perhaps you meant that the human make two sets of waves, and use the interference pattern, and move the bullets through said interference pattern? Even so, you still don't get a sin waves.

"While believing the UT world is a game."

Correction-Contains game-like mechanics.

"A game which features rectangle buttons, but for SOME reason lacks the sin function?"

It doesn't have any functions, for that matter. All the HUD really does is enforce turn-based battles, make stats, and utilize the S/L/R ability.

"Does your interpretation of human magic also include an extremely fast exhaustion"

It doesn't.

"and the range of shapes available being limited to drawings by 2-year olds"

It's limited even more than that. Think of it like this-Could you reasonably make that shape with objects as is? Could you, say, juggle that shape, or make it by bending a few ribbons, and combining them however you want? If not, you can't make that shape, because of the accuracy that would require.

"as well as the ability to sustain for a single SECOND the incredible amount of magical energy that would heat up a kettle filled with water by a quarter of a degree"

You can do better than that.

"while introducing the physical accuracy and dexterity of no one else but the famous Boris Yeltsin while at it?"

Yes, you would need that to make such complex shapes. That's why you can't.

"Once you dive deep enough into it, you'll realize the only logical conclusion: humans cannot use magic, for all these exact complications."

Oh, the only problem is complexity. They can't express themselves with magic, for all these exact complications. Also, you'd have to be BETTER than Borris Yeltsin. Which nobody is.

"It is so impractical, beating a monster with a piece of foam polystyrene would be more efficient."

Yeah, humans trying to use bullet patterns really wouldn't do a good job. But, they'd be much better at just casting fireballs! Still though, their regular attacks would be dealing more damage-99ATK could oneshot pretty much any monster. And humans go first. ...No wonder nobody was killed.

"You can represent yourself with a piece of crap. The thing you're expressing yourself with is literally irrelevant."

...That's not magic.

"And if it isn't, then define the boundary between complex shapes, and simpler shapes. What counts as what? Hint: it's impossible. You can still try though, that'll make me laugh."

Well, think of it like this. What constitues as a shape that is unique enough, that it represents specifically you, and nobody else? What would be.. Trademarkable? That would determine what's truly representing yourself, and what's just you doodling shapes.

As for what's possible and what isn't, look above, where I demonstrated what humans can and cannot do.

"A pre-prepared array. I just said it. Just pull it out of your memory the last time you've cast it (albeit slower) and voila, you've got a fast pull-off."

Pull it out? That's not how it works! You have to THINK about it! You have to recall everything yourself, just as when you perform at a play! (Assuming it's not improv)

"Though, if Asgore did it instantly, I bet he did the same thing. There's no way he summoned multiple objects that quickly one by one."

He likely did the encoding method you described earlier.