Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180724175809

"That's healing magic. Why would you send medicine through a post card? They haven't said anything specific, so I assumed it was white magic."

Green magic makes more sense. It's very easy to use, just as easy as white magic, and doesn't hurt anyone. It's better to HEAL someone than HARM them. The pattern is to represent themselves, and it's in green so that touching it doesn't harm you. It's that simple.

"Be careful, there's a lot of Floweys out here."

Those that won't accept your mercy. Those who CAN'T be saved, and problems that can't be solved by just being nice. By pacifism. So, what's left? Oh, that's right, FIGHTing!

"Or the other way around. There's no way of telling."

We play as a human though. In an RPG, you almost always play as the good guy. And since we play as a human, the monsters are on the other side, at least that's what we assume at first.

"Well? So Napstablook was an exception. And spears and lasers aren't alive."

He still attacked, though. We tried to wake him up, and he attacked. And when he attacked, the FIGHT began. My point is that it happens when the monsters attack, but that it doesn't have to be for no reason or just because you're a human.

"I'd say otherwise, since Undyne managed to break the bridge using spears. Unless you're insisting the the bridge has an HUD too."

Oh, I had a different reason.. (Also, as humans have the HUD, you've got your "solution" backwards:The HUD solution would be that humans are the exception for having the HUD, not the rule that applies to those without it.)

"Then tell them to go away before closing off the road."

Hm, Asgore? That's a great plan to capture all the humans! Come on, let's go with it! Just order everyone to go away from there, and then make a barricade! It'll be SURE to capture the humans!

...Asgore? Asgore? …

(The reason why he didn't go with that plan:He doesn't want to capture the seventh human)

And really, the only one who can make such an order would be the king himself, so..

"Well, they aren't really effective, are they?"

Of course not! Papyrus is too wacky to think of a better idea, or that they don't work! (And there's evidence for that-Seriously, he gives away his plan for the spaghetti trap, and leaves it cold, ensuring it won't work, takes literally anything as a compliment..)

"As I said, it may not have been an offensive magic to them. I don't think there is any "offensive" magic. It's simply that a regular monster magic (through which they express themselves) doesn't harm them."

Well, then we can Occam Razor's it to see what's better. I offer an explanation that only assumes that monsters don't have to use white magic all the time, which has been proven true on multiple occasions (Vegetoid, the SOULs from Omega Flowey..) And you assume that magic doesn't always operate the same way, depending on who it's aimed it. Which has no basis within the game.

So... evolution, you're saying. The HUD evolved. Describe every detail of the process please.

It's not the HUD itself that evolved. I still stand by that the HUD always existed. It's our relationship WITH the HUD that evolved. Our ability to use it. It all started with a steady rise of determination, as more determined beings are more likely to survive things that would kill them otherwise. (The will to live on, the resolve to change fate..) Eventually, modern humans gathered enough determination to be able to utitlize the HUD. Then started the relationship between the HUD and humans. Over many generations, they started getting closer and closer to the optimal way to utilize the HUD. Before then.. one might have said there was no HUD, because it could never be utilized. Now, being able to make a virtually undodgable attack (remember, it's invisible, and virtually unpredictable) would massively boost the population, because hunting would have become quite easy-Especially since violence was quite popular in the early days, meaning that these humans had high LV. This lead to communities forming much quicker than they otherwise would, and the magic that had to do with the (other*) traits would have began to form around then.

.*Yet to be determined

"It happens every time, and only after we execute an action. I think it's automated."

Us executing an action might have shattered the barrier that prevents the monsters from attacking. Works perfectly for FIGHT and ACT, seeing how we have to cross the barrier ourselves (or have Charrator do it).. .Okay, scratch that. Doesn't make sense for ITEM.

"It's most likely an exception, because of the nature of the amalgamates."

Universal rules don't HAVE exceptions.

"The monsters were too preoccupied trying to stay alive during what could be hardly called a war. It seems to me as if they never actually realized the humans were cheating."

Cheating? Not really, they're just using their powers. Also, just about anyone would notice that they just suddenly felt some damage, when visually, nothing was there to cause that. They probably questioned it then.

"But bodies can. What's wrong with that? Have monsters developed an immunity for physical attacks or something?"

We control our heart, our SOUL, not our body. This means our essence is within our SOUL, not our body. So that doesn't even matter. Also, monsters can be harmed by physical attacks. Like the ones we're using on them.

"Then force it back. You said they can do that."

How can they do that when they don't even know where your SOUL is? Like I said, it takes serious research to know these more complex aspects.

"So we've found a plot hole. Excellent. And I don't know why you think the bridge was made out of magic or something. There could be a solid cliff below it, we just can't see it. Maybe the bridge wasn't there to bridge anything, but rather to make walking over an extremely uneven terrain a bit easier."

Or, maybe that detail was on purpose, to offer a solution to our "plot hole"! Like how the detail of Asgore being basically a coward at times was on purpose, to offer a solution to our "plot hole" of why he didn't just take one SOUL, and take six from the humans! Besides, there's also the explanation that using magic would also decrease the total amount of physical matter you'd need. It could have been their version of cement, which monsters never had.

"But outside the designated area. (area/arena, eh, same thing)"

Our SOUL is still our SOUL.

"You're just listing random things here. Explain how are they artificial or whatever."

I named them, like you said. First, you explain how your laws are artificial, then I'll use your logic to prove these are. (I'm trying to prove your logic to prove that Undertale's laws are a simulation is flawed. I thought you'd figure that out.)

"Hope in our eyes. Although I don't quite see how that makes sense."

Exactly. It DOESN'T. That's what he thought, but perhaps he REALLY felt the presense of Chara with us, and attributed that to the hope in our eyes, which likely was Chara's doing, just like they made that scary face when Flowey is telling his story.

"All the magic of the souls was used on the barrier. There was nothing left."

He released the SOULs AFTER the Barrier was released. He took the restored SOUL magic, then released the SOULs. Therefore, he has exactly 7 humans worth of SOUL magic, but it can't be restored anymore, because he no longer has the SOULs to do that. So do something that takes the power of one human SOUL, and he loses that magic forever now, dropping him to 6.

"Then we're Asriel. Which we can't be, because our soul is Frisk's soul. Plot hole."

You can see the opponents' HP bar too, you know. And the fact that there is no box nor buttons implies we're in a different form of the HUD, sort of like in Omega Flowey's fight.

"Well, again, it doesn't look to me like the monsters are very prepared, since they're not dodging the attacks, nor running away. So much for fire safety."

I told you, they CAN'T dodge. Here, let me grab a quote from my previous post, that was under the bar (so a response to your SECOND post)

I told you, dodging human attacks requires a lot more than just moving around randomly. Human attacks are invisible, and aim for wherever the monster is. From their perspective, the attack is undodgable. Like I said earlier, in order to successfully dodge an attack, you have to both know that there IS an invisible button that causes the attack, actually know when the invisible button is pushed, and precisely as well, predict the time gap between that and the attack actually being used, and THEN move, at just the right moment. So it's a lot harder than it sounds at first.

...So of course they didn't dodge! They're not genius scientists like Sans and Gaster! Also, even humans can't always run away. It can fail, and sometimes, like, say, in the Sans fight, we don't even have that option. So, how can it possibly be that farfetched that monsters can't run away either?

"Plot device."

In-universe, please.

"Or maybe, Asgore sent them to tell you. Since you deserve to know at least that much."

Okay then. That works. So, why don't they say that you're a human if monsters are as you say, and would state the obvious all the time?

Now, the bar separates the posts I'm responding to, not necessarily WHO I'm responding to. I thought the quotes below the bar, being from YOU, would have worked. Also, if Malice can join in on our conversation on the matter, then so can you. Now, below the bar, I'll be responding to your SECOND post.

---

"Indeed. Though, maybe many of the monsters simply don't know how a human soul looks like."

They don't need to. All it takes is the knowledge that it ISN'T a monster SOUL, and by process of elimination, it MUST be a human one!

"Though, many of the royal guards recognize you before a battle even starts. Nonetheless, there's plenty of indicators that we're a human and yet, as I said, it seems like no one ever bats an eye. It's not obvious, it's amazing that a human is walking among them again after such a long time (according to Toriel)."

It was amazing that a human would show up on this particular day, after so long. But it IS, and always WAS, obvious that you're a human.

"They are not attacking us, that's how it looks to us. If Toriel said that, that may simply mean she knows what monster attacks do to humans. I refuse to believe that all the monsters are acting hostile towards us and want to kill us. As was said, they use magic to express themselves. What we walked into may have simply been them talking to each other, or trying to talk to us in this way."

It looks that way to us because we didn't attack THEM. So THEY must be the ones attacking US. Also, not all the monsters are like that. Look at all the NPCs on the overworld ever. There's a whole bunch of monsters that never attack.

"Monsters aren't trapped. They can run away from the fight, can they not? Unless you're suggesting their freedom is left to our mercy of sparing/fleeing. In which case, again, why did they not notice this?"

They DID. This is why they starting using puzzles, to hold humans back, because retreating is no longer an option after the humans.

"What sort of power would be able to restrain them in such a way?"

..The same power that restrains us the same way in Asgore's and Sans' battle?

"And if the monsters know how dangerous this is, be left to the human's mercy, why did no one tell the monsters to stop roaming around? You don't know if the human is going to stay merciful up to the very end."

Then just DON'T ATTACK THE HUMAN. In the True Pacifist Ending, we see a massive number of monster SOULs, and from counting these SOULs, we know there must be at least 322 of them. We only kill somewhere between 104(105 if you count Flowey) to 117 (118 if you count Flowey) in the Genocide Route. (You can kill all the monsters in the Warrior's Path even after "nobody came", and encounter three monsters at once when there's "1 left" in Snowdin and the CORE) That means at MOST, ~36.6% of the monsters actually attacked us. So that's more monsters that didn't attack than ones that did. (And that's assuming there are literally only 322, there's probably thousands)

Also, see MagomaevaAmina's post regarding defense. I forgot about that Froggit, but it proves my point here. Plus the fact that they're not spareable until you do something to make them not want to fight anymore. It's clear the monsters that attack want to fight. And, as I proved above, that's not even half of the monsters.

"You've got the burden of explanation backwards, ignoramus. If I were to walk up to you and tell you that the Earth is flat, you wouldn't be obligated to prove me wrong, I would be obligated to present a proof of my claim."

So first, present why Undertale's rules are artificial, then I'll explain why these rules are artificial. You made the claim first. My claim is that IF Undertale's rules are artificial, then so are ours. I didn't exclude the possibility that neither are artificial, and this second possibility is in fact the side I'm taking here. So, present your proof, then I'll take the standard that you used, and use that logic to present mine.

"And so, kindly present an explanation of why do you think those rules imply our world is a simulation, anyone."

That's not my claim. My claim is that they imply our world is a simulation just as much as Undertale's rules do. The answer to both could be "not at all".

"Also, when it comes to Undertale, I see it all very simply. Is it not true that everything we see on the screen is canon to the game? The HUD in all of its glory - the menu screen, the turns, the buttons, and so on. Those things can be found in many other RPG games and yet, Undertale seems to be one of the first ones to fully endorse its existence. Ergo, it endorses the idea of the world being an artificial game."

Really? A meta-argument? We're supposed to be looking into this IN-universe. Present an in-universe reason why, else your reasoning is equivelant to me saying our world is a simulation because well, God exists, and he's a gamer. What, does that sound like a ridiculous argument? That's because it is.

"It makes much more sense for the world of UT to be a game, rather than a world with its own physical laws shaped in this specific way. Because a game is already fully explained: it is governed by some root code, has a creator, and its limits are known - meaning it is fully explored, fully defined."

Same here:It's governed by some root code:What we know as the laws of physics and its equations, the randomness of quantum mechanics is from an RNG, has a creator (God), and its limits are fully defined. (We don't know all of them, but same is the case for Undertale. Plus, technically, the inhabitants themselves would have to know for this to make sense. Of course our designer knows everything about this world.)

"If it was a world, the explanation of how the world works (e.g. physical laws), or even evolved to be in this state would be missing. We would be missing a link between the point of creation and the present day, if this was the case as you are saying."

All we know about our laws are a bunch of formulas-Not WHY they are the way they are. Tell me, WHY does mass curve space-time? WHY is the speed of light what it is? What exactly IS an electrical charge? And what about quantum physics, how does that work? If Copenhagen is correct, how does the universe decide where the particle should be? If Many-Worlds is correct, how are the worlds created, and why can the particles from these worlds interact, yet not the larger groups of particles like us? If it's pilot-wave theory, where do the pilot waves come from? We TOO are missing a link. And yet, you choose to simply shrug it off. The exact same way I do. How about that? Now, it's time for another round of using your exact logic against you-Your next paragraph is a prime target for this.

"I'm sorry, but I simply cannot accept an explanation that is incomplete. I cannot accept that our world is based on some concrete physical, universal laws, without a LOGICAL explanation."-The Tssykx of the game of Life.

"Though frankly, the difference between our world + magic and our world + magic where an HUD exists is as great as the difference between the former and simply our world without any magic whatsoever."

Right-The distance is around the same. So first we make the leap from our world to the one with magic, then leap again to the world of Undertale. I really don't see the problem here. Just because it's 2 parallel worlds away rather than 1 doesn't mean it's a simulation. Because one of the worlds connected to our own is also connected to Undertale. 2 is just 1+1.

"It almost seems like the only sensible explanation is that the HUD has always existed, and simply waited for humans to evolve, so that they could gain souls and so that it could latch itself onto the being with the most determined soul."

Correct:It DID always exist.

"Which implies an intelligent design, as THA said."

Yes. And ONLY that.

"However, my note still stands in that case, that the monsters are being mind-controlled by the HUD to not think anything of it. But... it's never mind control! Never assume a conspiracy!"

Right! So what else can explain it? Oh, maybe they DO think something of it!

"So, how do we explain this without mind control?"

By saying they DO think of it, but they don't just point out the very obvious facts. For all this time, I never said that you were a human.

"See, no matter how I look at it, the artificial element persists. I cannot get rid of it without completely crossing off the HUD. And so, that's what I choose to believe, that the HUD is not canon."

While an alternative explanation stands right in front of you. It's staring RIGHT at you.

"Yes, Toby said it is. And so am I; all I'm saying, is that its effects are real. But to the people inside the game, it looks different than to us. We see it as an HUD, they see it as completely normal, mundane actions. No buttons, no invisible attacks, no turns, none of that nonsensical nonsense."

They (as in, the monsters) don't see buttons. Sans or Gaster deduced that there must BE buttons, because they linked contact with a certain area of space in front of a human to the attack that followed. Sound hard? That's why nobody else figured it out.