Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180830175515

"I'm assuming that if Toby wanted a certain information to get debunked, he would have pointed it out, like with Alphys. So since he didn't point anything out here, didn't even drop any hint whatsoever, both information must be true. So we have to find a way to make both of them work simultaneously. As in, they are correct, we are just misunderstanding them."

While this is true with the intro vs monster plaques, (long BATTLE versus hardly a WAR), there's really no way to make both of them true..

"He was killing them nonetheless."

Exactly:To keep the charade, to keep the hopes of the monsters up.

"Not while he keeps the charade up."

He can't anymore. You're the last human. If he kills you, the barrier breaks, and he likely still believes another war would break out:That's WHY he wants everyone underground. (Toriel makes it clear he'd rather have everyone trapped underground, and meekly hope another human never arrives. That's my main evidence for the Asgore charade, by the way.)

"It doesn't, though."

Undyne proves it does. Specifically, Undying in Genocide versus death in all the other routes. And Asriel shows that applies to humans as well.

"Maybe they are the most determined human after all. Who knows?"

So why did Frisk only gain that power once they hit the underground? Why did Flowey have it until then?

"Maybe eating monster food had something to do with it? You know, DT is a magical substance after all."

Nonsense:We don't even have to eat monster food ONCE in the game.

"Concluded."

From..? Where's your reasoning?

"That's different. One was a monster human soul fusion. Here, we have two essences sharing the same human soul."

You flat-out sold your SOUL to Chara. Pretty sure the SOUL belongs to them now. Their essence is now within your SOUL. Which yes, does combine with yours, wrestling for control.

"We don't even know if they can fuse. And if yes, I assume that would fuse their minds together too. Imagine that. A backwards split personality disorder."

Which is quite contrary to how it was described, since in both endings, it's clear Chara "took over". They both share the same body, and the same SOUL, as if they had one and fused with ours. Their relation is therefore very similar to that of Chasriel.

"Those same teens ruthlessly decorated Gyftrot, by the look of things."

We know somebody did, but we don't know who. Probably Jerry. Just about nobody likes him.

"And not everyone can cast orange or green magic, not everyone can work with soul modes, etc."

While I do agree SOUL modes is something not everyone could do, I wouldn't say the same for green magic, and there's likely some reason why certain monsters can turn your SOULs into certain colors. For a while, I've guessed that thing happens to be what their second trait is (first being magic)-Papyrus fits blue well, Undyne fits passion (green) well, but that breaks down when we look at Mettaton-He fits integrity, not order:So it has to be something else. "Every monster is different. We don't know if they all can. But yes, I don't really think HP reading falls into this category. I still find it weird that the monsters just ignore it."

Me too: Hence the conclusion that hey; maybe they DON'T ignore it, and perhaps they want to kill you after all?

"Maybe they just don't know what they're witnessing, since their attacks never harmed anyone before."

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5eExWRVBhWDlWcWM

HP seems to be common knowledge, that's taught to students over time.. This particular one doesn't quite understand what HP is just yet, though.

Napstablook knows what HP is as well, he flat-out mentions that he's been lowering his HP to not be rude (..okay, monster HP is definitely far different than human HP). HP isn't something that monsters don't understand. They'd know that you're losing HP.

"Armies fought. So it's a war. Short wars are a thing too."

Yep. But barely.

"Though the monsters don't tend to call it a war, really. More like a genocide."

Not a single human SOUL was absorbed: Which means it's pretty likely not a single human was killed. So, in that sense, yes, it could hardly be called a war. ..More like a conquest.

"I don't. I believe that the game has no consistent explanation. My third race belief is my headcanon for fully explaining the rules of the world to myself."

And I've got the Boss Human theory, which at least has SOME merits (about as much as human essence)

"So you do agree that his message still is, that the humans were at fault, and that monsters are not monstrous, but rather innocent and misunderstood, and that the pacifist route is the only true route? None of that nonsense you were spewing out yesterday?"

Do you even know what deconstruction is? Deconstruction is what happens when you take into account everything that goes on into the story.. Then start looking at how things would realistically be. Yes, you have the "hero", fighting off the "bad guys", but what exactly ARE the "bad guys"? They're not just a bunch of non-living entities that only know how to fight and nothing else-They have lives too. Motivations. In this case, likely the fact that you're a human and Asgore wants to destroy humanity, and Asgore is their king.

"Which is obviously a nonsense, and considering we both know he's not insane, you're wrong."

..It's not a nonsense if they plan on destroying all of humanity. It's not justified, obviously:I still consider Pacifist Neutral as the best ending. Papyrus in Genocide NEVER wanted to kill you. He's instantly sparable, and never attacks. There is literally NO way to justify killing him in Genocide. Not saying Genocide is good:If it was good, I'd be saying the war was a failure, because the humans made a barrier instead of killing everyone then and there. Just because monsters pose a threat to the very existence of humanity doesn't mean we should kill them when we can just make the threat not a threat! Because not all monsters are bad! It's just that it only takes one or two bad monsters out of the entire monster population to literally kill all of civilization though absorption of a human SOUL.

By the way, why do YOU think he objected to calling the bad route the Genocide Route, if it's not because he didn't think it was a genocide?

"Joke's on you, I'm still using it."

Then let's get back to the discussion on whether or not it's a reliable source, shall we?

"Because it was never a rule. At least not the way you're citing it."

If that's what the book says, then that's a rule according to the book. Yes, you're correct that it was never a rule. Which means the book was false.

"Yes, exactly!"

So, that isn't canon. Simple as that.

"This is what happens when you let the meta go too far. This is why I refuse to believe that turns are real. Because it's a slippery slope from there that ends in exactly this kind of madness."

I don't follow that slippery slope, because I've drawn a strict line on how far we are to take this. I've said it before: If the game explicitly mentions it within the story:Say, we see a monster abusing it, then it's canon. Otherwise, there is no reason to say that it's canon, and it's usually not canon at this point.

"Then so is all the meta. E.g. the intro is an actual intro to the world and not just someone's memory, ergo it takes precedence when comparing facts."

But that's on the other side of the line:For it wasn't mentioned within the game. It's an introduction to the story, in the same way any other story has introductions, but it's not something anyone canonically sees. How do you see the intro narration of other stories?

"We also have to explain how dialogue texts work."

That one wasn't explicitly talked about. "Reading this doesn't seem like the best use of your time" is a mention to the narration, and Chara being the narrator is hinted at many, MANY times. If the narration was closer to how narration of other games work:An omniscient narrator with no human bias, and without all those lines referencing itself, I'd say there is no narrator according to the game's story.

"Although, meta needs no explanation... it just is, just like the turns. MysteriousMalice was very clear on that, that turns somehow exist without a logical explanation."

Indeed, if you take anything down far enough, down to its very fundamentals, there is no explanation for those fundamentals. I've devised something that somewhat explains the concept, but you can only take things so far.

"So if the graphics aren't real, why should the buttons be real and not just inside Frisk's head for example?"

Because Sans makes use of that, by aiming bone attacks at the buttons, and Asgore destroys the MERCY button. If it wasn't for that, I'd say the buttons weren't real either.

"They can regain it quickly, and it is more difficult for them to lose it."

So that's the second question answered.. What about the first? What IS that?

"You've been developing this conspiracy ever since you posted that bs post about monsters starting the war or whatever. What's next? That genocide is justified?"

As I've stated several times before, Pacifist Neutral is the best ending. We can both agree that trapping the monsters behind a barrier is better than flat-out destruction of one of the two races. Whether that race is humans in Pacifist, or monsters in Genocide, the fact is-It's bad. (And it's implied Chara destroys humanity too in Genocide, so.. Genocide is THE worst. Well, Post-Geno Pacifist too, but come on, that's Post-Geno.)

Now, onto your second post.. -- "All of those were monsters. We're talking about humans here."

See above, the second half shows that Asriel and Omega Flowey proves it's for humans as well. By the way, there's no reason to assume that humans are some special exception, or that monsters are some special exception.

"If you suppress them, it is a supression, and I never claimed they cannot be suppressed."

Pretty sure they mean you aren't "suppressing" them at all.

"They make sense to me, because I'm living it. UT doesn't make sense to me, because I'm not living it."

They make sense to all the Undertale characters, because they ARE living it. There you go.

"Besdies, Toby didn't take any particle physics classes or anything, it's not like he has any deep explanation for the rules of his universe."

He MADE them. Pretty sure he knows what they are. You wouldn't need particle physics, you would need Undertale physics.

"If turns exist "just because", then that's an example of bad story building. Especially because they are just so nonsensical. I would understand it all a bit more if the monsters were to point to its presence more often, if the "laws" of this universe were truly addressed for what they are often enough."

We don't point to the presence of gravity, they don't point to the presence of turns. And gravity's a special case, created by mass bending spacetime:Not the natural state of the universe. And I've attempted to explain turns as well:As I said, the buttons are what create the attacks, and once that's over, it sends your SOUL over to the box. Interestingly, part of the box exists in the distance between the SOUL at the buttons, and the monster:Perhaps, then, your SOUL, when using its magic to power the attack, ends up inside of the box, for it to then become stuck in there, only being able to move inside of it. Seeing as the buttons are outside of the box, you won't be able to use them:Thus, all you can do is dodge. The fact that moving the box allows you to fight on Sans' turn supports this interpretation on the matter.

"And once again, Toby has no explanation. He merely explored the concept, without putting much background thought into it. I'm positive about this at this point. Three years and no word from him? Man, either he's preparing a sequel or something in an absolute secrecy or he truly has nothing."

The very nature of his plans is shrouded in darkness. https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/682652148639875073

"Even this is an assumption, you are assuming these magical traits combine. Or that there's only 7 fundamental ones to begin with. How do the combinations of 7 traits explain the incredible complexity of the human mind?"

If you can do it in six, you can most certainly do it in seven, especially since the seventh is just a combination of the other six.

"All humans had DT and they could all reset (so probably save and load too by extension). The only thing they didn't have, was a narrator reminding them that they're filled with determination. Is that the reason their souls weren't red or something? Ofc not."

.*SOUL SHATTER*

.*No! You cannot give up just yet! PATI! Stay determined...

..*But it refused.

Oh, good! You refused! Now you can fight Asgore and- wait, what are you doing, you're dying, come on, LO̴A͝D͘ ͠yo̶u̷̧r̶̢̡ ̢̛S̵͞Á̷VE͢͝͡ ̷͜͡͡͞f̴̧̨́͟ì̸͝͏̶l̨͠e̷͟͞.

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