Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170920194430

1) Yes, Asriel had all the souls in him when he destroyed the barrier. Kinda obvious.

And I can't argue with the other thing. You're saying that not only did Asriel have his image, but also the power of the souls. Too bad there's no proof of this except for the fact that his health is infinite in the questionable mini-game. So either he had his full health back, or he was just tampering with the HUD. If that IS his health, then explain why aren't the white attacks hurting us? Where is OUR HUD? And if your answer to all of this is that he's just tampering with the HUD, then I'm sorry, but I can't accept such answer. That's like saying "god did it" to every rational question. Sure, it's easy, but then don't use it as a proof for other things. And let me remind you that when we backtracked to meet Asriel, he didn't really look like he knew he had any leftover power. If he did, he wouldn't just stand there, all resigned. And if he didn't but then found out that he did, he would not prank us like that. Not the right mood.

So even though I do not believe he had the power, since logically, if you give something away, you no longer have it, I still do believe that even if he DID have it, he would not initiate such minigame. And finally, if he DID give the power away and therefore did not have it, then WHY is he there? Well, when you backtrack to the same spot after fighting Toriel, she will be there too. Perhaps that's the only reason why Toby put Asriel there. To reference Toriel. So logically, Asriel shouldn't even BE there! But ok, it's canon, so I'm taking this as the only exception from a rule - Asriel's projection is there, but NOTHING ELSE. Certainly not the power that he gave away.

Besides, it is one thing to generate a projection of someone, and another thing to give them god-like powers. That's quite the difference I'd say. A single monster soul is enough to create one monster body. Same with Asriel, only that much power could have been left inside him when we met him near the golden flowers. There is no implication that he did have god-like powers still inside him - as that would be WAY more than the amount required for his body, or just a projection of it.

Oh and one more thing. What even IS this "special thanks"? It was even highlighted in red:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5MnBhWUpfcEp1alk

Honestly, I think this was an off-canon event. It is much simpler to assume so. The attacks are the names of the kickstarter backers. Explain that. Where and when did Asriel learn so many human names?

2) And are you dense? The room refers to the present Toby Fox (or rather, the 2015 "present"). This is obvious, since there's no foreshadowing going on in that room. Just because the fucking game takes place a hundred years after 201X does not make the room talk about Toby making more games in the future. It was meant to be an off-topic content, meaning, it spoke of the 2015 Toby Fox. We don't even know what year 201X is in the first place. And fucking wow, the statement about the holes getting bigger is just another fucking joke. It does not invalidate the statement about patching them. Do you even know what a joke is? Do you want me to call you an idiot and finish this conversation off for good? I'm not willing to discuss the game with someone who acts like an obvious internet troll. You're arguing just so that you can prove me wrong, even if you do not believe it yourself (frankly, I think you're starting to actually believe your own lies).

That room references Toby and nothing else. So that's canon, meaning the room cannot exist "in-game". And since there's no different "in-game" canon for this room, this room is non-existant "in-game".

3) So you're saying that as early as 2060, all DJ parties will be run by an AI? Do you even math?

And your doubling logic can't work. It's based on the same principle as Moore's law, which is failing as one. AI can only get so intelligent by self-improvement. After all, a normal AI does reach a point in which it can no longer improve itself. And this will be true for true artificial intelligence too. AI, as well as humans, can only get so observant, based on the info available. They can get only so good at their job. Infinite efficiency is by all means impossible.

And besides, music isn't just about the sounds, it's also about the personal feel. Many people don't play an instrument simply because they want to make music, they're doing so since they're enjoying it. So why can't that be the case with Mettaton and Napstablook? If they wanted to make music, they could just buy a good AI and do some heavy marketing to push those songs out. But no, they played their own song. No matter what happens, non-artificial beings will always be more impressive and more entertaining, simply because they're "worse" at everything. So reaching the same results will count as more impressive in their case.

And people would not want to look up to some AI, they would want to look up to real people, real beings, thinking they can do the same if they just try.

4) So, on one hand, they're saying that there are no entrances, and on the other, they're saying that anything can enter through the barrier.

It seems like multiple people wrote the plaques, not just one. Since this is a contradiction so obvious that not even a monster would make it. Yes, monsters aren't totally trustworthy, but they don't make mistakes like this. No one does. At least not anyone who can write on the language level these plaques were written at (and that is, above-average english). So it wasn't one monster that wrote them, there were at least two. And I think it's safe to say that despite this, the remaining plaques are still trustworthy.

Another possibility suggests that the monsters simply don't erase old info. They did think that nothing can pass through the barrier, but then they found out that small things can get through and wrote a new plaque. One of them says that no humans will ever fall down, and yet, 8 did. Some info can be outdated. But the rest seems to align with the game pretty well, so I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the rest of the plaques.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And no, the barrier exists near New Home. One book in Toriel's home said they walked far into the earth. So they couldn't have been walking through the area of (old) Home, since that's not even technically "far". Sure, it seems pretty big when we view it, but still, I wouldn't use the word "far". The rest of the underground is much bigger. After all, the giant New Home looks really tiny when viewed from Waterfall. And what was their motivation for relocating their capital city? It is said that they did so since they no longer feared the humans, presumably due to Chara, meaning that they acquired HOPE. Why move even further away from the barrier then? (If it was located near (old) Home as you're saying.) When they first established (old) Home, they did so as far away as possible from the barrier, due to FEAR. That's what the book said. But then they established New Home even further away from the hole that we fell through? That doesn't make much sense. If the relocation to New Home was an act of HOPE, then why were they going AWAY from the barrier? Shouldn't they move closer to it? Actually, don't answer that. The answer is, they DID move closer to it, since that WAS the way towards the barrier.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">...

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Unless, you meant that the barrier exists on both ends. I actually agree with that, but it is visually present only on the New Home end, since that's where it was originally made, and therefore, that's what the monsterkind also refers to when talking about 'the barrier'. The black-white wall of energy. Not some invisible force field existing in the hole that Frisk fell through.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">But seriously, this is an established knowledge. There is more evidence to support the idea that they walked from the New Home end to the (old) Home end, rather than the other way around.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">(Side note, I hope you do realize that when Chara fell down, monsters were still living in (old) Home, right?)

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And also, the intro. I know it shows the humans trapping the monsters in some sort of a pit, but that's another reason why the intro can't be trusted. It glorifies and exaggerates the events, and it pretty much is just an artist's rendition (Temmie Chang's). The true story is provided by the plaques. I know this seems like an evidence that they were sealed on the (old) Home end, since that one also contains a pit, but again, more evidence goes against this. And on that note, let me repeat myself one more time. The plaques don't necessarily have to be lying. It could very well be true that when they were written, there were no existing exits. Maybe the hole did not exist back then at all.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">I do firmly believe that the intro was mostly fabricated info, due to how it is portrayed. Legends and myths are often skewed.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">6 + 15) That symbol is pretty much a universal symbol for sound. Yes, I know that some ACTs are non-verbal, but at least they're all visible. They're always something the monster notices. And Chara does not necessarily have to ask them, they could very well be just "observing" the stats, somehow. And any monster can also hide those stats, but most of them choose not to, or perhaps can't. I do not believe that Chara's actions are visible/audible like ours. As I said, the only proof for this is Napstablook and Tsunderplane, but those two are questionable monster species. And on top of that, we can't even see Chara at all, let alone actually SEE them asking anyone.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And your theory would raise even more questions. Why did Flowey never acknowledge the existence of the narrator, except for the very end of the genocide route? Why do only so few monsters react to Chara's quotes, if they can be heard normally? I believe the theory that Flowey said what he said simply because he was breaking the 4th wall at that point is more reasonable. After all, you CANNOT disprove that the 4th wall interactions are in fact canon. Just like I can't disprove that the HUD is canon. You're saying that everything is a part of the game, except for that. Well, what if those meta moments are canon too? Impossible? Kinda like the HUD? See, this is why I don't like your explanation of the HUD. It is too "meta". Just like the 4th wall moments. I am comfortable with saves, but not the battle interface. It's just too weird. Just because the game interacts with it doesn't make it canon. It's not that easy, it can't be. Just like other things in the game that are there, but due to simple logic, they cannot be canon (eg. the developer room). Undertale is a game, so if you wanna be so strict, then discuss it as a game, and nothing more. In which case, a half of everything we're discussing here is pointless to talk about. Things are the most exciting when you can rework the story into a kind of self-contained universe. Saying that everything in the game is strictly canon is practically saying that the game isn't and cannot be anything more THAN a game. Meaning that retelling the story in a form of a comic, or a video is not canon either, since there's no "choice". True, I've seen interactive comics, but then... what's the point of discussing the game when we don't allow ourselves any level of freedom? And in this regard, the HUD, as well as the 4th wall moments are pretty restrictive.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So either acknowledge that Undertale is just a game, or drop that silly idea that the HUD is canon, along with the idea that the meta moments are canon. You cannot drop one while keeping the other one. In all honesty, I admire the people who make a good story totally canon with the game (with a battle interface and everything), and I admire the creativity of people who drop all of that. On the other hand though, I regard people who keep the buttons but not the actual battle interface as not being well-taught about the game. Since you either have the HUD, or you don't. Duh.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And if Undertale has an intelligent designer, then it's Toby Fox, who created a game. But since we've already ruled out the idea that Undertale is canonically a game, we must explain the universe using something other than code. But I think that's impossible. There's too many asterisks and exceptions to the HUD, and its rules can even be broken. So much for a universal cosmic set of rules. If anything can describe the world of Undertale, it is code. But if the world isn't code, then the parts that have to be code are non-existant.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">7) (cont. to point 6) In one case, he's talking to Frisk, and in the other, he's talking to Chara. And yet in every case, he reacts to an outcome of a timeline. What makes you think he's NOT talking to the same person each time? Eg. the player? I mean, besides saying that the player is not a canon entity. Assuming that they are, that we are, is it still not possible that Flowey MIGHT be talking to the player? And now, assuming that the player is NOT canon, using the same logic, cannot we conclude that these conversations happen outside of the canon story, since we've just pulled the player out? I mean, it makes logical sense that Flowey might be talking to the same person over and over again. How can you say that they're talking to Frisk in one case, but to Chara in the other, when Frisk and Chara are strictly connected? How can NOT one of them listen, while the other one can?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">8) So hard mode is not canon. Glad you realized that. (Since how can one mode be an act, while the other one not? Either only hard mode is an act, or both modes are an act, in which case... err... the entirety of Undertale is... staged? Nice. And Sans is Ness.)

<p style="font-weight:normal;">9) I've seen a theory which says that Asriel's 2nd form takes place during a reset, and we're supposed to halt that reset. We can't overpower Asriel, we must convince him to stop on his own. So Frisk does not necessarily has to have an incredibly high amount of DT.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">11) So that tells us that Chara and Asriel's souls really DID fuse into one then, don't you think?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And we got the information that we need at least one monster soul to cross from Alphys. She definitely did not lie to us at that moment. And maybe this truth was actually false (meaning, that whatever source she acquired this piece of info from was also false), but we have no way of proving that, and so we must assume that it is true.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And I disproved your claim that a monster soul is not needed to cross the barrier if DT is soul power by saying that a monster soul is STRICTLY needed to do so, since it contains something the human souls do not possess, and I backed up my claim using one of the Snowdin books. You even accepted the fact that monster souls are white BECAUSE of magic if I remember correctly.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And there IS a correlation between DT and soul power, since souls with lots of DT are very strong, eg. their soul power is very high. That's what "soul power" really means. The soul with a high soul power is strong BECAUSE it can resist change. And nothing disproves that this is what the barrier is made out of, as DT can naturally be turned into a powerful magic attack, as Omega Flowey demonstrated. Tell me, what IS soul power according to you? A high magic potential? Maybe. But that's what I said already. Maybe soul power is its own metric, but there is no doubt that DT has a direct effect on it. In this case, correlation might imply causation. I know how the saying goes. Correlation =/= causation, but that's hardly a rule. In a majority of cases, correlation DOES show causation.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And your theory about DT magic seems interesting, but I already showed that persisting can be explained using regular DT, which prevents human souls from shattering. And in case of boss monsters, I have my own explanation. I already mentioned how one of the Snowdin books talks about the boss monsters' life cycle making them strong. Well, what if this life cycle is caused by some new force? Kinda like your DT magic, but exclusive to boss monsters. It is what prevents them from aging, and what is passed down to their children, making the entire family age as long as a flow is present. As long as the child is gaining life force, it grows. When it acquires the maximum possible amount, it becomes a full-grown adult. And when this adult decides to have a child of their own, that child will again grow thanks to the life force. But since the parent cannot "un-grow", it will instead start aging. And when the parent loses all their life force this way, it will die. And another way for a boss monster to die is to get hurt. When a boss monster falls down, its life force will keep its soul intact for a few moments. But since it's nowhere near as strong as DT, it gets wasted quickly, and the soul shatters not too long after. And when that happens, perhaps the child won't be able to reach full adulthood, since the wasted life force cannot be regained. And wh en a child loses both parents, it will (most likely) stop aging completely.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> 12) "I would use their souls to become godlike..." Notice the plural. I don't know what are you trying to prove here. Asgore obviously didn't want to cross the barrier with just one human soul, he wanted to wait for 7 humans to fall down. He told this to everyone. When we first met Undyne, she explained to us that we are the last soul needed. The monsters are convinced that this is the plan. And he must have declared this right after his children died. After all, he did say so. He didn't want his people to lose hope. And declaring something like this right away, even before the first needed human arrives is what prompted Toriel to leave.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> Unless Asgore changed his plan. Maybe his original plan was to go through the barrier after acquiring just one soul, but when the first human arrived, he got scared, and told everyone about the change of plan, which is why Toriel left. But this has a flaw. This change of plan goes from better to worse, and he wouldn't do that to the monsterkind. He wouldn't get their hopes up and then crush them. The fact that he's still the king proves this.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> 13) You said that Chara said that Frisk cried. That's not true. Chara said that Frisk laughed. This matches the ACT option that we chose. And Frisk denied it. They denied laughing. They didn't specify how much did they actually laugh, so it is implied they denied laughing altogether. And I added that Frisk might have reacted like this since Chara exaggerated the laugh, since why would anyone laugh in that situation in the first place? Chara used sarcasm as a defense in there.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> 14) There is no proof that Chara can be heard. For what we know, it could just be a voice in Frisk's head. Then, no one would be able to hear it, except for some incorporeal beings, assuming that Chara too is incorporeal.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> 16) Yes, and I assume that when the monsters started blocking his attacks he pretended to be angry?

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> Yeah, I still think he wasn't pretending to be surprised. After all, he attacked everyone before those other monsters arrived, meaning he did not need the others, meaning he didn't tell them anything, meaning he did not anticipate them arriving.