Thread:Seralyna/@comment-5956954-20180510094348/@comment-35880544-20180621224745

i have little interest in engaging with you further on this. below, please find a response by a close friend of mine who also understands the situation.

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Hi there! I'm Tsareena from the tweet you referenced in the above comments - for now, you can just call me Tsa. (No, that's not my name, or nickname, or alias, and it's not my URL either. However, I'd really rather avoid being concretely linked with this wiki past this comment, as I'm quite disappointed in how this situation is being handled by an official face of its moderation team.) I've come here with Celene's permission as I've watched this situation unfold, and feel I'm probably a better person to answer your questions right now - partially because I've dealt with situations like this before, and partially because I have less at stake if I don't say things in a way you personally find satisfactory. As such, I'd like to address each of your points one at a time, at which point I'll bring up a few salient points that I think you might really want to focus on if "learning [about the transgender community/issues transgender indivduals face]" is in fact a priority of yours.

Additionally, I intend to link several sources - both for the claims I'll be making and for further reading. I'd prefer you take further questions/learning opportunities to these sources rather than asking for further responses. I am an industry professional who doesn't have much in the way of time to spare giving free education towards people who, regardless of their intent, are acting in a way which makes me doubt their actual intentions. If you have short questions, you are obviously free to drop them off - just as both Celene and I are free to ignore them in favor of more productive uses of our time if we find them unreasonable. (Alternately, if you'd like to pay my opportunity cost for further time spent, I can draw up a rough estimate for you - but I think reading the linked sources will probably be a more efficient use of your time and money. :] )

So to begin with, let's start quoting things!

UPDATE: I have removed the names and added to the dotpoint it was upon request. I hope this eases the tension observably increasing between you and me and prevents it from escalating further unnecessarily. I do want you, however, to continue discussing this with me so it can be seen if a compromise could still be reached another way and if it is a better solution than the current. I wish to learn.

First, I'd like to give you some credit here: taking the actions requested and then discussing potential other options is the professional call to make when dealing with vulnerable populations. While the Undertale Wiki doesn't employ you (I assume this is volunteer work and not a paid position), this is likely closest to the position a decent HR department would have recommended in the first place; additionally, as an act of good faith it makes your later claim ("I wish to learn") seem much more believable. This is actually an important point to make: members of the trans community are often treated as though they have an individual responsibility to teach anyone interested about anything they might ask. This can range from well-meaning but detailed questions, like "why would seeing your old name potentially be harmful," to people asking detailed questions in bad faith, such as "have you had SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) at this point in time" as a means of proof/gathering information.

Further, consider the time disparity between asking a question and writing an answer; even a question which takes thirty minutes to pose may take several hours to explain the necessary context for to an individual with no experience on the topic. (For a tie to a professional field, consider the question "What does a chi-square test mean?" to a statistician. To even explain the answer requires that several different concepts be established in order; tests, distributions, the chi-square distribution of n degrees of freedom, critical points, and so on. Shortcuts may be taken to explain or generalize the answer, but if this answer is deemed "unsatisfactory" or "nonrigorous" the question asker may decide to probe further - or worse, to disregard what is being said as irrelevant.)

These two points in combination lead to a distinct issue: for transgender people, justifying their own existence often is a responsibility left to them, one which can potentially take hours for each new person that asks, and one which may get you questions several times daily. All of these factors combine to have an exhausting effect, and people who have spent much of their time rehashing the same few conversations can grow tired. This leads to exchanges like the one between you and Celene, where several questions were asked and Celene did not want to spend a significant amount of time explaining the nuances of the responses or (worse yet) finding studies and sources for you. Consider that you are likely only having this conversation with one person; Celene may be locked into having it with many people at once.

As such, it's my personal opinion that Celene does not "owe" you long-winded explanations or detailed responses. If she chooses to spend her time giving them to you, that's great; however, there are other forms of education available. We live in the modern age! Libraries, online encyclopedias, and user-written primers on the topic all exist and can be found en masse with the click of a button. (I'll be linking some of these personally later on in this post.) Further consider that "I wish to learn" barrages can and often are used intentionally to exhaust people; the Gish Gallop in formal debate settings is an example of this malicious tactic.

The evidence that I can find where keeping the information appropriately "respecting trans people's wishes" may harm someone like yourself is the misgendering I have mentioned before, which can come with psychological turmoil due to a past history with the name. Fortunately, the dotpoint does not mention the use of pronouns nor does it state to continue referring to this person by their deadname. Negative connotations and connections are out of the question.

Assuming once again that you're not arguing this in bad faith, I'll take things one at a time. First of all, the use of pronouns is not necessary to convey gender clearly in the English language under the assumption of a standard, cisgender viewer. If I say "Robert's name changed to Jessica (by request)," it is immediately clear to the majority of readers that this reflects a shift in gender, whether they respect it or not. (Interestingly, this is less clearly the case in more queer-accessible communities, thanks to the current prevailing view that gender is a spectrum rather than a single binary; Frisk is a good example in this very canon.) Thus the use of pronouns is unnecessary to convey gender in many contexts.

Further, you are correct in that the initial dot point does not "state to continue referring to this person by their deadname." However, your logical deduction between these two points and "[n]egative connotations and connections are out of the question" is a step too far. You have pointed out that no explicitly negative connotations exist, which is a good first step. However, thanks to the implicit biases of potential readers, the information provided - and the specificity thereof - can be used for negative ends if they have any inclination to whatsoever. To illustrate this, let's set up a brief example.

EXAMPLE: let's hypothetically say that one of the admins of this wiki has a traumatic past with their father. For purposes of illustration, we will say that their father was abusive in physical, emotional, and mental senses. Under an information page for that admin, you are given the chance to write something about their father. You write the sentence "[Admin]'s father beat them between the ages of 12 and 19, and discussion of this topic can lead to immediate mental distress/suicidal ideation. Please do not do this." This dotpoint would have no explicitly negative connotations; if anything, it is telling people to be kind! However, by giving this specific level of information, you have given people who might act in bad faith an immediate and perfect way to reach their goals. Further, this level of specificity may actually be enough to upset the discussed admin in the first place! As such, despite you taking care to put no negative implications in, negative consequences have been reached as a result.

I require further proof that keeping a deadname ("a" being anyone's) will actually risk harm beyond controllable and reasonable subjectivity (if it is not too sensitive).

"Beyond controllable and reasonable subjectivity" is in itself a highly subjective measure. However, a 2018 study in the Journal of Adolescent Health[1] indicates that the use of a transgender child's chosen name was linked to 71% fewer symptoms of severe depression, 34% decrease in reported suicidal ideation, and a 65% decrease in suicide attempts. If this is too general of a result, more specific studies regarding the presence of a deadname without parental coercion likely do not exist, and given that you seem unwilling to take anecdata as evidence a thought experiment may be necessary instead.

EXAMPLE: let's hypothetically say that a transphobic reader of poor disposition came across the page linking Celene's deadname and full name. In this scenario, the page has been set to not be indexed by Google, Google's caches have fully updated, and the only way to find this link was by reading the Undertale wiki itself. However, Undertale was a popular game, and thus at least a few ill-intentioned people have likely visited this wiki. By seeing the link between a "male-coded" name and a "female-coded" name, this reader could likely put together that the name shift was due to Celene being transgender. At this point, if they wanted to link the two identities - whether by trying to dox Celene under either name, or finding her workplace/old workplaces - nothing is stopping them from doing so. This reader would be less likely to have immediate access to the name differences if they only knew that two names were changed by request; they would likely have no reason to look further if the text read "two backer names were altered in the credits by backer request."

I do not know the problem [an employer being able to Google a link between your deadname and your name] poses for you, no. That is why I asked for an explanation which I did not receive.

According to the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey[2], 27% of transgender people who held or applied for a job in the last year reported being fired, not hired, or denied a promotion due to their gender identity. Additionally, in thirty US states, you can be fired on the grounds of being transgender[3]. This represents a real financial impact for Celene and people like her.

More notably, this is all cursory research performed under the assumption that Celene is a citizen of the United States. In many other countries, transgender individuals face very real threats of violence or death. Seventy-two countries in the world (as of 2017)[4] criminalize same-sex activity, and the vast majority of these countries are at minimum equally harsh on transgender individuals. Eight of these countries treat same-sex activity as a capital offense, punishable by death.

Beyond that, I have searched your two names on Google. I see multiple results on various websites, which I believe are not created by you. It would be impossible to identify you so long as you continue not to associate personal credibility with your online accounts.

I do not know whether any of these individuals are in fact Celene. However, I do not believe whether they are or not is a compelling argument for keeping a link that can in other ways provoke suspicion in an employer, citizen, or person interested in doing harm.

I will attempt to explain a hypothetical perspective from that of an employer. If I were to see this abundance of results from Google as I attempt background checking for something that may discriminate you (which is illegal in the US under the FCRA and can be countered by the EEOC or similar), I would see multiple results that, upon scrolling, would not be able to reliably connect you with the previous name. If it does or is seen through more formal checks like "credit/criminal reports", then the issue would be more than the reveal of the deadname. If not, then it's for identification, tax, and reference purposes which do not risk avoidable psychological distress or employment chances[citation needed]. From what I see as a different individual, I cannot find or connect the personal information that can be used for discriminatory purposes through google searches of your names. I personally would not bother to search further at that point and potentially focus on other background checks that require your consent, knowledge of what's on the report, and the right to dispute incorrect information. If I am mistaken, please let me know (or don't if it's too sensitive).

While discrimination for a number of reasons may be illegal under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, it is much more difficult for an individual to prove that they were fired/passed up for hiring on the basis of their gender. Further, in at-will employment/right-to-work states, employees can be let go for many reasons (even with the potential exceptions many states provide). As discussed above, being transgender is only protected in twenty US states; more notably, it is not difficult for employers to find other reasons to dismiss a transgender employee if they make up their mind to do so. Labor courts often side with employers, as I understand; I am not a lawyer and do not know in-depth particulars on this topic.

I will also attempt to help however I reasonably can. I have applied the "__NOINDEX__" tag to the changelog page in an attempt to stop search engines and web spiders from indexing the results while still keeping the information on the page for those who are curious for the differences alone. If this does not work initially, then I will check to see how to update the cache version provided by archive systems, update them without the names, then prevent further indexing. I am attempting to think of plans to satisfy respect and integrity, and I will continue trying until nothing else is reasonable. If necessary, I would need your help and cooperation.

Once again, credit where it's due: this is a good step to take regardless of whether it's a satisfactory one or not.

I truly wish I could understand the actual danger of keeping the names would cause. I have googled how deadnames are harmful, transphobia itself, the status of the group in this world today, particularly the United States, what your rights are against employment discrimination (FCRA), and if there were further connections to the names that both concretely identify you and in thorough detail that can be used for full-blown discrimination. I cannot, which to me means if there are no further recounts or references to the names or other personal bits of information one would want to keep hidden for their safety, then I cannot see how an employer working quickly through various applications can dedicate themself to such a thorough non-legal search like I, a person with a lot of free time, have for 3 hours now.

As mentioned before, it would only take one person acting in bad faith to make the knowledge particularly dangerous. Additionally, please consider the issue of multiple random events; if an employer only has a 5% chance of finding this link, that's good! It means only 1 in 20 would see it immediately. However, if we consider 50 employers having been applied to, we would expect 2-3 of them to have found the link (calculated using a B(50, 0.05) distribution). These cumulative chances add up, and the same is true on a non-employment scale as well. Further, speaking anecdotally as a transwoman, it can be frustrating just knowing this information is out in the open for someone to find. I have well-meaning but clumsy friends who know my deadname, and all it would take is one of them using it in public to potentially out me (with dangerous ramifications).

That is not a source I was asking for, though I believe you are aware of that with this linked tweet. I see there is a lot of misunderstandings in these tweets, so I'll be commenting on them as well.

Given that the sources you were asking for were, to my understanding, a form of legal identification/legal name change form OR an explanation from the creator of the game you mod a wiki for, I feel that Celene's compromise is not unreasonable. It links her current identity (Celene) and user account to a time as far back as January 2017, which I believe predates the changes to Undertale's credits. By contrast, any form of legal identification is dangerous to post around online, as it enables doxing or identity theft. This leaves the only "viable" option being the creator themself stepping in to explain the situation, which is - quite frankly - an absurd thing to request. Toby Fox is a very busy individual. He almost certainly has better things to be doing than answering arguments between two fans of the game about the name change.

This language and attitude is consistent, which is why I am pointing it out. There is no reason to condemn me with words of ridicule or name-calling. Treat me with the respect I am giving you, as I am attempting to work with you.

With all due respect and then some, these are private expressions of frustration which don't link to you. To my knowledge, no name is given; Celene has been hesitant to give out the location of where this was happening, even when I explained that I'd like to make her life a little easier by answering. As such, what you're demanding here is that people be nice to you in the way they discuss their frustrations with friends. At best, this is unnecessary and frankly a bit demeaning; more to the point, however, you currently hold a position of power over her as the only person (evidently) who can potentially remove her deadname from the wiki. As such, demanding respect in a person's private interactions (not just their responses to you on this page) can be seen as an implicit threat; this is something you should be aware of in your interactions with other wiki users.

I am not attempting to persuade you. I am attempting to persuade myself to believe without any reasonable doubt removing the names is the best action possible. I have mentioned this to Seralyna already ("I apologize if my opposing stance on your decision is intimidating. My purpose is to find out with you what the best objective course of action should be made in regards to this edit.") to make note I am cooperating and am willing to come to a compromise, but I need a sufficient reason to remove a non-antagonistic and rule-abiding detail. Otherwise, it compromises the integrity of the wiki for a purpose that has not been proven to be a risk.

I have discussed why I believe this to be a risk above. I further do not believe that changing "Name x was changed to name y" to "Two names were changed at the backer's request" compromises wiki integrity in any real sense, much in the same way that "a space was removed after the end of every sentence" does not compromise wiki integrity over a list of every sentence in the game before and after the space.

You are correct. That is why I asked for verification. Otherwise, there is the reasonable assumption that the Wiki Celene was impersonating the real Celene. I am not trying to make changes or negotiations to be difficult. I just wanted reliable and unquestionable proof so I may use it to speak for Celene in case people do attempt to argue why the information was omitted. It's like banning closed-source citations. If they cannot be accessed by the public for free, then the content within can be disputed and manipulated to force people to purchase a potential lie.

This is reasonable to an extent, as long as the proof required is reasonable.

If you read my request carefully, I asked if "there was a way for you to verify that you are indeed the same Celene?" This could be done this way, which you have. Therefore, I am now 100% certain it is you, and things can proceed normally with that fact. Please do not misrepresent what I have said.

I may have misunderstood your earlier writings on the topic; "that is not a source I was asking for" did not seem to imply to me that you believed the source at the time. However, I'll be proceeding from here under the new understanding that Celene has verified her identity with that tweet and that you accept it. Feel free to disregard previous bullet points on this topic.

I wanted proof that it was the same Celene, which could be any way I can know it is the real Celene, like a tweet saying "doing this to confirm" or similar. I did not as for an "ID" or anything like a credit card, social security number, etc. There is apparently a negative stigma in saying I will seek out Toby Fox (if I have to) for the confirmation if I cannot find it anywhere else. Remember that I would not bother to do this because it goes against my self-interest. I am, however, because I am attempting to reach a compromise that benefits everyone. I apologise the intended message was unclear to people.

Further confirmation on previous point. Skipping ahead.

I apologise for frustrating you. What needs to be understood, however, is that you're reading a discussion about a change made on a wiki that anyone can edit. If someone disputes the edit, they have the right to speak about it however they can and to have their decision and reasons respected (which does not mean it overrides better reasons and/or consensus). You are free to criticise me and my thoughts, but it has to be with respect and contributes to the further understanding of the discussion and progress to a consensus among those interested.

The criticism you are talking about belongs in the context of this wiki. I personally feel that Celene has been acting with a fair degree of respect given the context of this conversation, and all venting/legitimately upset talk has been kept in other spaces (twitter which is careful to not mention you/direct things at you specifically, and private discussion).

I was conforming to the conditions you have agreed on. You could have asked earlier to move this conversation somewhere else like a private chat on Discord. Since you have not, it is assumed the discussion will continue here unless you set up an environment (that does not put one at an advantage) that will be appropriate to transition to with reference to this location.

I do not believe Celene came into this discussion expecting it to be a formal debate. I believe Celene saw an instance of an outdated name being kept for her, one that (whether mild or severe) could have negative repercussions on her personal life, requested a change, and reopened an old argument as a result. Given her surprise at the continued responses, it seems reasonable to assume that she did not intend for this to be an argument or a debate.

I will repeat what my plans are (mentioned in my last message) above with the inclusion of the Google Cache refresh. If I am to continue, however, I ask everyone to be reasonable, respectful, and not to attach negative stigma that risk bias and "meatpuppetry". Do not use straw man fallacies either, which is misrepresenting what I actually said to make it easier to knock down. I am not misrepresenting or twisting what you are saying for my personal gain, and I expect the same to be done for my messages.

The only potential strawmans in the twitter posts linked above were the misunderstandings concerning the level of proof you desired. Apart from these, all other fallacies have been reductio ad hominem - or rather, they would have been if Celene's thoughts on twitter (intended for an audience of followers and friends, and never giving a link to you) were intended to be part of a debate.

Celene, I will also continue to stress the streisand effect because connecting yourself further to personal attributions and making it public further will both be self-destructive to your wishes and cause a "psychological reactance", which noted by the linked Wikipedia page makes the internet reveal and connect more information.

The Streisand effect is almost certainly not applicable in this case; or rather, if it is becoming that way, it is likely because of you providing the initial resistance necessary for it. The Streisand effect requires an initial degree of notoriety/spread to get off the ground in the first place; if one person addresses one person (with no audience) and requests that something be removed, it can only spread from that point if the requested person intentionally spreads it. This is true at slightly larger levels as well; when considering whether the Streisand effect might kick in, you should consider the specific audience of editors/readers following the changelog documentation page.

The Streisand effect might apply if Celene informed a large population through a public announcement on Facebook to "please don't visit the Undertale wiki until I get this name issue fixed." It is much less likely to apply in a request to alter a niche page to not contain PII (personally identifying information) about her in a searchable/extractable format.

If you wish to continue the discussion to somewhere secluded and/or private if it requires revealing more (if you wish), I can make the arrangements if you cannot. Other than that, I hope my response was not too long, and I hope to hear you back soon!

This is a good offer to make in situations like these. I do not know if Celene is interested in continuing this conversation further; given its nature and her response I would highly doubt it.

With that, I believe I've addressed all the points you requested Celene address. Given that, I'd like to take a few moments to give some quick thoughts of my own before I provide a potential reading list.

First off is the matter of time. I chose to respond to your points in Celene's stead specifically because I know her scheduling difficulties and the issues she faces offline (to some degree). Given my familiarity with these topics and the abbreviated nature with which I addressed several points, this only took approximately three hours to write. As I did this in my downtime, this isn't a huge issue; however, that is still a large time investment to expect and demand of someone in exchange for continued respect/potential safety. In the future, it may be better to ask individual questions one at a time; these are much easier to answer than walls of text.

Second is the matter of wiki integrity. In this case, I simply do not understand why the link between the names is necessary. For a changelog, "two backer names were changed at their request" is more than descriptive enough of any necessary changes; the mere fact that people asked to change them should probably be an indicator that they wouldn't want the old names attached. Combined with Celene arriving to request, for both personal and personal safety reasons, that the name be taken down, I'm having a hard time reconciling the equal weighting of "keep the full names explicitly written out" and even potential danger. I'd personally rather it not even be a transgender issue; if I found my name on a wiki I didn't explicitly request to be put on it (and I wasn't a dev on the project/something like that), I'd personally be upset. I would want to be able to request that name be taken off for any reason, as long as an appropriately descriptive replacement could be found. Essentially, I'm of the feeling that personal requests, regarding the sharing of information about you personally, should likely trump questions of depth/accuracy.

Finally is the matter of learning and responsibility. I believe I've already mentioned this, but it is not the responsibility of either Celene or I to educate you on these topics. While doing so can make your life easier (through saving time sorting through pages/research), it does so at a possibly disproportionate cost to us. I am doing this for now to try and establish why I feel that Celene should be allowed to remove her deadname from the wiki if that's what she wants; I am doing it because Celene is a friend, and I care for her quite a bit, and I personally know from talking privately with her that this is causing undue levels of distress for her. As such, I am trying to make the load a little easier on you by providing sources; please do not assume this is the norm.

I hope this answered your questions, at least to some extent, and I hope you will consider the words I've written as a transwoman directly impacted by things like this. I do not intend to answer further questions, unless they are small clarifying ones that I know will not take much time to answer. Have a good day.

READING LIST:

An Ally's Guide to Issues Facing LGBT Americans (http://web.jhu.edu/dlc/resources/external_diversity_resources/allys-guide-issues-facing-lgbt-americans.pdf) Violence Against the Transgender Community in 2017 (https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgender-community-in-2017) The Whipping Girl, Julia Serano (https://www.amazon.com/Whipping-Girl-Transsexual-Scapegoating-Femininity/dp/1580056229)

SOURCES:

[1] http://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/fulltext

[2] http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS%20Full%20Report%20-%20FINAL%201.6.17.pdf

[3] http://www.lgbtmap.org/equality-maps/non_discrimination_laws

[4] https://ilga.org/downloads/2017/ILGA_WorldMap_ENGLISH_Overview_2017.pdf