Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-31536324-20180918220426

"You die. Simple as that. The HUD therefore cannot possibly be doing that."

You really like contradicting yourself, and disregarding canon, don't you? The plaques YOU used and provided as flimsy evidence outright disproves this statement here. You really ARE bad at this.

"I detect a head canon. There can be any explanation as to how and why that button is there. It's a totally arbitrary question."

Arbitrary - Based on random chance, or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

The button is there as an option to actually attack the monsters, what THA is doing is trying to explain how it OPERATES. If anyone's questions are arbitrary here, it's yours.

"Totally arbitrary explanation. We can just as easily say the universe uses our soul to read the soul of our enemy and generate the appropriate setting based on how would they resolve a fight were they not stuck in this dystopian setting. And since no one is asking any questions, it must be a natural occurrence for both us AND the monsters, implying this power exists everywhere. We don't need any ambient magic or whatever. Just blame it on the sentience of the universe itself, that's a much simpler explanation. Just make sure to lock away your common sense first."

Yup, you're DEFINITELY in denial. "Dropping Toby, we drop his idea of a universe where all of this is canon and go back to the dystopian simulation hypothesis."

No, we don't. The game acts as if these things are natural parts of the world, and since there is literally nothing to say otherwise, they ARE natural parts of the world. With or without Toby's word on the matter, it's still canon. Your "dystopian simulation" hypothesis still has no ground to stand on.

"Though, consider, we don't need to do any of that. We can ignore the HUD at all times, except for the case of Sans's battle."

One errant example is all it takes to bring down the whole thing. I thought you knew this already; and if that one instance forces us to acknowledge it, then we have to acknowledge it across the board in all other instances. Once again, you are BAD at this.

"And what is simpler, ignoring this battle, or rewriting logic itself?"

Which is more stupid, being in denial or accepting facts? Clearly you chose the former.

"If battles and speech bubbles are all governed by the HUD, and according to this interpretation, the HUD is a mere translation method, then what we see is just a translation of the original, which could have been and probably was very different. So much so, it may have even been in accordance with these alternative rules."

Except Sans talks about EXecution Points while NOT in the battle system. So what he's saying in both has to be true across the board, and not an alternate interpretation run through different rules.

"It's literally there on the screen in front of your eyes, just like the buttons, just like the battle arena, just like the speech bubbles."

The same can be said about you and both the Alphys Entries and the plaques.

"I shan't then. Saving, exp, lv, all of those are canon. And nothing else concerning the HUD is. Moving on!"

Here's the quote again: "Use the format of a video game to tell the story: traditional fourth-wall breaking tropes such as "SAVING," "EXP," and "LV" are an integrated part of the game's world." "Then let's agree, Flowey spoke of YouTube viewers at one point."

He was talking about people like him. "And what kind of a lame ass deductive logic is this again?" Actual logic, the kind that you seem to be allergic to. Gaster never used or manipulated the invisible barriers to his or the monsters advantage, and neither did the monsters. Therefore - unlike the Battle System, EXP, LV,and S/L/R - because no one in the game mentions, hints, explains, elaborates, or even uses them in any way, they are not canon.

"No u. The power of a soul = soul's power = soul power. It is not my fault you nitpick."

DENIAL! "Nowhere in the game it is said that souls have two distinct forms of power. No, when speaking of its power, the word is about its strength. And the plaques define soul strength as the ability to persist after death."

In other words, Determination. The plaques were talking about the SOUL's ability to persist after death, which is what Determination is defined as.

"This is a definitive proof that soul power is determination, besides the obvious correlation between the two."

No, it's not. The plaques are just describing what DT is and how it's the one weakness of humans.

"What else do I have to say?"

How it actually contradicts the evidence we've provided. DT can't be what the metric is talking about, because we've clearly seen two instances where it CAN increase and change in quantity. In other words, the very thing a metric is NEVER SUPPOSED TO DO.

Asriel had the power of 7 SOULS, and 7 was what was needed to break the barrier. No more, no less.

Frisk NEVER had REFUSE as an ability before the GoHD fight, meaning that their DT increased and achieved the threshold to attain that ability.

You keep saying that DT and SP HAVE to be the same thing because Human SOULS are used as a metric, when there are two clear instances of DT itself increasing that break the basic rule of a metric. This is why I keep saying that SP is the power of the SOUL as whole, and not DT; because no matter what the increase of any of the traits or magic, it will never change (increase or decrease) and remain static, something that DT has shown to go against.

And you can't say, "Oh, well, DT didn't increase in the GoHD fight," because Frisk attained an ability that THEY NEVER HAD UP UNTIL THAT POINT. And no, the other kids couldn't have had it, because THEY ARE DEAD and it wouldn't make any sense. If they had it, then Frisk should have had it throughout the entirety of the game, and making S/L/R pointless.

But they didn't, which already poses a problem, because if the other kids did have REFUSE during their journey, then why didn't Frisk? This implies, by your hypothesis, that Frisk has LESS SP than the other kids and GAINED SP throughout their journey, which automatically goes against the metric, which shouldn't be possible by your "DT = SP" Hypothesis.

Your problem about Frisk having more DT then the other SOULS wouldn't be a problem if you simply applied the base idea of DT and SP NOT BEING THE SAME THING into the equation. The metric would remain true and unchanged, the base rule of a metric wouldn't be broken, and there'd be no need to make up things that aren't ever even a possibility to begin with.

"Your entire counter argument is based on the fact that the two phrases, "soul power" and "the power of a soul" are not the same gramatically speaking... as if that actually made them semantically different."

The phrase, "the power of a SOUL," is not used in either plaques. Here's the exact quotes of the plaques again: "(Plaque 1) But humans have one weakness. Ironically, it is the strength of their SOUL. (Plaque 2) It's power allows it to persist outside of the human body, even after death."

Plaque 2 is talking about the power of the "strength of their soul" from Plaque 1; Determination.

"No, this is a proof. Not a conjecture, not a hypothesis, not a theory, this is a canonical proof. Meaning, all related facts must be reinterpreted to fit this proof. Thank you for cooperating!"

Plaques + Alphys Entry 5 + Difference between entries 2 and 5 + Correlation between Entries 3 and 5 + Entries 6 and 7= Proof.

"'Weak' is a subjective term, and although true, correlation does not imply causation, it also doesn't deny it. Besides, we were kinda left with no choice before."

Not really.

"The correlation was there, nothing was pointing against it (not even your theses about a DT flux, since those could have been easily reexplained to fit this correlation),"

No, it does: the basic rule of a metric, and no it can't.

The basic rule of a metric is that the quantities are to remain both stagnant and unchanging, and reach the same result every time. (12 Inches = 1 Foot for example.) Any flux, decrease, or increase that occurs and reaches the same outcome automatically proves it false.

If Frisk, in your SP=DT Hypothesis, has as much as the other 7 Humans, then they wouldn't have GAINED REFUSE period, because they would have already had it. But they didn't until the GoHD fight, and because they NEVER had it before, the idea of the others having it but Frisk not automatically going against the hypothesis. Since that implies that Frisk DT/SP were LESS than the others, which, again, shouldn't be possible by your hypothesis.

So even if you remove that discrepancy by saying that none of them would have it until a situation like the GoHD fight. The core problem still remains, because Frisk GAINED it and the other kids are DEAD, meaning that their DT/SP INCREASED in order to attain the ability. Which ALSO goes against the hypothesis.

"so I kind of assumed this has always been true. But now, I have a factual proof. Wait no, not "I," we do. This is our proof. This is canon. This is what the game is saying."

No it's not.

"Nah, the media is faster. Remember his notorious laziness?"

He made Undertale. Point?

"He never said that he's Asriel."

"And Asriel never said that he's Flowey. Just something about """some""" flower. All of us of course knew he's talking about Flowey, but it's still an implication. I bet I could redo the entire plot line of Undertale, fully referencing myself to the canon, so that Flowey wouldn't be Asriel. I bet it would be possible."

Once again disregarding canon I see. You are REALLY bad at this. Also, I do believe that is called a Fanfiction, i.e not canon. "Oh, please, Alphys gave hints for my case." Referencing soul power and DT in different contexts but never as a single thing at the same time? That's just induction, I cannot accept that as a proof. In fact, abiding by what is now the 'confirmed canon™', Alphys simply didn't know or didn't realize that those two were actually the same thing."

And where is the implication that they are the same thing? Oh, wait, I remember: those two plaques that only talk about DT, and not SOUL Power, that you thought counted as evidence for your case, but really didn't. The last sentence also doesn't flow with what's shown in-game, if they were the same thing, then she would've made that distinction before or after extracting DT. But she didn't, anywhere.

"Once again, I have to repeat myself. You use that rule only if the two possibilities have the same weight."

In other words, only when you want us to and not when we can use it to disprove you.

"Earlier, we've had two true-by-default statements clashing against each other. Now, we have another such statement, but against someone's spoken word instead."

what are these statements?

"If Alphys were right, that would not disprove the plaques."

No, because they ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT DT!

"They have no reason to be lying, else their existence would be pointless. So that would rather imply the laws of soul mechanics have changed over the years. Which is a moronic assumption, as we can all guess."

You're right, that would be a stupid assumption.

"Ergo, Alphys's spoken word must have been wrong. We don't know where she pulled that information from, and we know she was wrong several other times too. Go figure the rest for yourself."

Evidence to this statement. She experimented and got results that said as such; you are REALLY, REALLY, bad at this. "Tl;dr, Asriel had more cumulative DT than Frisk, but couldn't reset right away, since the composition of his soul laid out one more hurdle for him to overcome, and that is killing Frisk."

Except he didn't need to do that as Omega Flowey, disproving this.

"But Frisk didn't want to accept this, so instead of their soul shattering and accepting its fate, it refused, which in itself was not an act of a superior determination, but merely the resolution of the full potential of a human soul, the power of determination."

You literally just took what the plaques said and shoved your "DT=SP" hypothesis into it. Wow.

"They were not more determined than Asriel, but were determined enough to persist."

An ability that humans automatically have; unlike REFUSE. You disprove yourself here.

"Same thing happened to Undyne in the genocide route. Not in control, but not dying either. That's all there is to it. If you say it this way, you completely eliminate the problem Malice has been presenting."

No, you don't. REFUSE is an ability you GAIN, and can't be one you just have from the get go, as shown by both of my prior explanations before hand!

"And why wouldn't it? Why wouldn't "soul power" and "the strength of their soul" be the same thing? We're already assuming that the "DT extractor" extracts determination and not for instance deuterium+tritium, so what gives this time?"

Because the former is the power of the SOUL as a whole, and the later is but a PART of the SOUL as a whole, and clearly able to fluctuate.

"Sure. And then compare that to Frisk's DT spontaneously multiplying seven-fold. A literal anticlimatic Mary Sue/Deux Ex Machina moment, versus the addition of a pretty basic rule."

Canon vs Fanon, canon wins. I think you mean, "Compare Frisk's DT increasing due to their intense resolve to achieve their goal (i.e Determination), to a fanon rule that has no basis, no legs to stand on, and is disproven by canon."

"The one thing still bugging me though is reloading. Perhaps you could explain that. How exactly do you want to "turn canon" the fact that in order to reload/reset manually, you have to quit the game, without actually changing what the game shows us? I'd add a new button that Frisk presses instead of literally quitting the world, just like I added that rule with composite souls. And while at it, I'd also tweak Chara's world-killing attack accordingly, so that it doesn't have to be so "meta"."

Same as both of you; you do realize that means you have to settle for them destroying the world, right? Since there is literally no other explanation, and Chara even outright states it a what we're doing.

"Internal/psychological dedication. I reckon the same happens with humans, except they don't create any new DT, they take from the pool they already have. The pool which makes their souls persist after death and occassionally heal them."

So, they don't CREATE more DT - which I never believed - but instead gain more from tapping into the well that they already have, and adding onto what they already have from whatever mixture of the traits there is? I have a post that I've been trying for DAYS to post, but the site wouldn't let me for some reason - it's a response to your post prior to this Tsskyx - that had almost the exact same explanation in response to the part congratulating me for "making my theory more convoluted".

The only difference was that the more gained was from the DT made from whatever mixture of the other traits was.

"I meant the definitions themselves. For example, integrity and justice are very similar, as they both deal with what is right and what is wrong. Of course, integrity is originality, but only according to Toby Fox. The dictionary would disagree."

The main dictionary definition I keep finding for Integrity is honesty, and when you're being "original" and keeping to your "original style" you're being honest (or morally upright).

"Why ARE these the main attributes? Why not some others? Why is it all so arbitrary?"

Because they are, because they're either not or not as important, and that is not a question applicable to the discussion, more of a personal question that vexes YOU. "Not exactly. It's a conjecture. I'm not actually introducing any new elements into play."

You're introducing something that's never stated, hinted, implied, or referenced in the game in any way. That is literally the basic definition of "introducing new elements into play."

"Once again, I have to repeat myself. He managed to push through it at first. He was telling himself this was his duty as the king. But with us, he finally mentally snapped. No particular reason why, it had nothing to do with us, it was just the timing. You could say we were lucky. Heh, I mean, if Toby didn't want this to become a plot hole, WHY did he affirm those abilities to the previous children at all?"

It does explain how he knew where the Mercy button was, deja vu because of S/L/R is a thing as proven with Toriel.

"In the end, we can only speculate, but we must always hold in our minds, that Asgore defeating between 1 and 6 children who all had the SLR ability IS canon."

Agreed.

"The DT is burned as a fuel. The product is pure magic. That's what fuels the refuse process. Magic™."

So, DOES DT decrease and increase, or doesn't it? Because you're saying quite clearly that it DOES here, thus going against your hypothesis.

"Our access to the world. It was purely meta."

Or they just destroyed the world, because, again, it's clearly stated what would happen. Also, are you trying to get rid of the meta or keep it, you keep flip flopping here.

"Yes. That's because the power of DT is soul power and nothing else."

Except it's not, because it can fluctuate, and my explanations prior.

"This is what the plaques have been referring to."

No, it wasn't.

"It IS clearly JUST the power of DT, because soul power is literally nothing else. There is no other hidden variable, this is it, this is soul power."

My prior explanations disprove this. "And I have rejected it, because one, it doesn't take into account our soul doing weird shit."

And this "weird shit" is?

"If the soul doesn't want to shatter, then it must mean it would not take the control back if it were to do that... just as Asriel hinted."

First: How? Explain.

Second: Proof?

"If we truly had the control, nothing would be at stake during that battle. And two, according to your theory, Frisk > Asriel > Omega Flowey > Frisk."

Except Asriel actually succeeding. Also, Pacifist Frisk is clearly different from Neutral Frisk, as shown by the repeated citing of the Omega Flowey and GoHD fights.

"A particular interpretation that is also the only logical one, and a terribly weak correlation that is deadpan simple and unshaken by the rest of the game's content. Even Nochocolate has admitted this as a canonical proof already."

Except the Alphys Entries, OF and GoHD fights, and Undyne the Undying; also, proof, do you have any to show and back up your statement?

"Man, you must be in denial, there's no other explanation for your ridiculous reasoning." Once again, neither of us are mirrors. "No shit Sherlock. That's because soul power, "ITS POWER", is DT and nothing else."

Here are the EXACT text of the two plaques: "(Plaque 1) But humans have one weakness. Ironically, it is the strength of their SOUL. (Plaque 2) It's power allows it to persist outside the human body, even after death."

Nope, no mention of SOUL Power here, just DT. Once again, the second plaque is talking about the power of DT - the strength of the soul - mentioned in the first plaque. SP is the power of the SOUL as a whole; DT is a power of the SOUL.

Are you sure that WE'RE in denial? Because you clearly are. "Improbable. Stupidly improbable when you think about it."

Considering you need to kill 100 monsters, the intent to harm on top of that (LV), and the different rates EXP and LV goes up depending on the monster. It's highly unlikely that any humans would have gotten to that level given how wars go and how short the battle seemingly was.