Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-34762984-20180927183143/@comment-34762984-20180928031221

TheHumanAmbassador wrote: "However, even though Chara does not exactly share your enthusiasm about committing wanton murder, there’s no need to worry as there’s another person who’s a lot more willing to be a “great partner”. Who am I referring to?… you know exactly who I’m referring to."

Of course! It's Flowey! Too bad we betrayed him, even though he wanted to help us. ...That's just before Chara betrays us, though, so I suppose it's poetic.

Well, time for Part 2!

Frisk? Seriously? But we ARE Frisk! Just as much as we're Link, or Samus, or Simon Belmont, or Steve, or.. You get the idea.

But at least you got right that it was Frisk who walked past Papyrus' puzzles, and so on, and your first argument being very similar to one of my own. (Of course I say that who you play as moving without player input is perfectly normal:Happens all the time in oter games, and this is no exception. Doesn't suddenly make the player some third entity.) They're the one that punched the Mad Dummy so hard as well, and that's actually where I'd begin my argument supporting the idea of Frisk doing these things.

I DO believe Chara killed Sans, but that's not because the slash is automatic, it's because the kill count doesn't go up. This also places the point where I believe Chara gains the power necessary to control you at LV19 (You only reach that LV in a Genocide Route, after killing Mettaton NEO.) Which means perhaps Chara made that face as well-Chara's known for making a creepy face in the tapes. The MERCY button doesn't exist at all in Asgore's fight, and in Flowey's "fight", there is no HUD at all. You're losing control, as Chara starts taking it away from you, slowly but steadily, and after killing Sans, it accelerates, and continues to accelerate, until it finally ends with them taking it away completely, and you losing the ability to LOAD, when they destroy the world.

By the way, Chara is restricted to the HUD just as we are:Chara could only automatically kill Sans AFTER the box was moved. That's why they didn't do it sonner and save us a lot of trouble.

Your arguments against Chara being in control the WHOLE time after the Sans one, however, are completely valid, and I agree. As I said, I don't believe Chara took control at all until LV19.

And they DO gain power from LOVE.

"HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV. When a number goes up, that feeling.. That's me. 'Chara'."

I consider their ability to posess you in Soulless Pacifist as an effect that ONLY applies AFTER you give away your mortal SOUL to them. It makes sense for giving your SOUL to them to mean they can now control you, after all. And they WANTED this. This is part of my take on the SOUL exchange:I'll get to the rest when you do.

"It's me, Chara."

We see Frisk, Chara sees themselves. This IS Chara's body, this is their vessel. And your body is in fact their source of determination.

"My 'detemrination'. My 'human SOUL.' They were not mine, but YOURS."-Chara

So it'd make sense to associate Frisk's body with themselves.

I agree that many say that Frisk is NEVER evil, that Frisk is supposed to be good, and always was. I'm not one of those people. Being one of the believers that Frisk is the player, I'm convinced that Frisk is whatever the player is when playing. They're definitely evil in Genocide-The player chooses what Frisk is. They roleplay Frisk. And thus, Underale may in fact be one of the first true video game RPGs-One that's ACTUALLY about roleplay rather than grinding to level up and going after every quest.

Back to Snowdrake, I realized the reason why I was able to refute the argument before. I had said in BOTH instances, it was Frisk. Now I suppose in both instances it's Chara. We have no evidence this WAS ment to be sarcasm, after all. (Poe's law here, we can't detect sarcasm on the internet. Or through text like that.)

Yes, that snowman claim is in fact completely ridiculous. In BOTH cases, that is Frisk/the player. And you've reached the exact same conclusion that I did about the two sides:They both use the exact same argument:That one side is corrupting the other into being evil.

Also, I have a better name for those people:The Frisk Defense Squad. Makes the similarities/irony more obvious.

Now to your take on first:First off, the jokes.

I don't believe Frisk made the jokes on the HUD, that was either Chara, or the HUD itself. For the sake of simplicity and our very sanity, I'm choosing Chara. They're a jokester according to the tapes, after all-This wouldn't be that farfetched. As for the legendary fartmaster and being a stupid doo-doo butt, that was from Sans. Remember, that was the secret codeword that Sans whispered into Frisk's ear, Frisk just repeated the codeword-Nothing more. And we all know Sans loves jokes.

The rest is you interpreting cutscenes as if that meant the player is some canon entity. No, it's cutscenes. This is your character now. You picked the Evil alignment, so your character will do evil things in cutscenes. You and Frisk are SUPPOSED to be one and the same.

So let's go back to "Dog food, V3.0".

They usually describe things they can USE as half-full or half-empty, dending on whether they're an optimist or a pessemist. But you can't eat dog food, so this is merely a change in terminology. You could even argue that they're enthusiastic, and "half-empty" was optimistic, because this was someone ELSE'S food, and THEY'RE half-gone, which is GOOD for Chara, seeing them as enemies and wanting to kill everything, after all-Thus, you could say that calling it half-full would be pessemistic of Chara in this scenario, there's still half to go. And yes, Frisk is the one amused by the dog food. You got that one right. And I fully believe Frisk is the one that feels good by punching the dummy, but I also don't believe that we're teaching Frisk, but rather, that we ARE Frisk, so I can see why you're doubting that.

Now for the big argument, the one that supposedly shows that YES, Chara IS an undercover cop, and they just slipped up the act (Or maybe at this point they already knew you were evil and were truijg to see if you would change after this was pointed out-Then again, Chara already tried that test with Undying, I'm not sure what would be different-Perhaps it's that here, it's explicitly said that you're doing evil, rather than just your opponent doing good, since good can fight good sometimes?)

"You felt your sins crawling through your back."

Yes, yes they are sins. Murder, in fact.

But remember, Chara only says this after you're hit with KR. When you actually feel them.

Now, I belive the first defintion ("a") is what Chara meant-It's the most common, after all. And in that case, well.. Everyone's sinned. I don't see how you were able to go through the meaning of sin, and not find out about the principal of "Everyone's sinned" that's so prevalent in Christianity, which is the most common theme where that word will be uttered. "Sin" DOESN'T have to mean something utterly horrendous, it's as simple as breaking one religious law. So what's to say Chara wasn't talking about a bunch of petty things?

Then again, Chara calls themselves a demon in the second Genocide Run, so they clearly see themselves as evil at that point:Perhaps they DO say that for themselves, hoping that you'll realize your evil.. But still do it anyway, just as they do. Hoping that you won't CARE about those moral standards that you're breaking by being sinful.

...Hmm, maybe the idea that this was a second test like Undying isn't so far-fetched after all.

Chara had no idea that Sans wasn't sparing us at first. Sans trolled Chara too. And he is technically "sparing" us. He just goes back on his word to troll us. Sparing is SAYING you don't want to fight, according to one of the Froggits, the same one that gives you the solution to solving Toriel's conflict peacefully. Sans technically did that, so he's technically sparing you. Doesn't mean he follows through with it.

Now, tell me. If LOVE didn't give them power, then what DID give them the power to give you that sweet, sweet retribution?

The reason why nobody noticed Frisk is gone is because they, including me, believe we ARE Frisk. Flowey's encounter had no HUD, and no Frisk sprite. This merely carried on to Chara's "encounter". This is because it's now first-person. We're seeing through Frisk's eyes. Chara asks for "our" SOUL, and it's Frisk's SOUL. We are Frisk.

Now for the second "warning":The eerily music. Hey, you just summoned a demon. I don't think that deseres triumphant music. Undying got the triumphant music, because she's the hero, even if she turns out to lose. This doesn't sound like a hero's thene, but would it work well as a theme playing when you watch the villains perform evil sorcery, or detailing their evil plans to MURDER everyone? Frisk is NOT the hero here.

..I didn't notice the heartbeat. Just the "music" that is the same note being played over and over again.

"Our plan" is Asriel's plan. I see no reason as to why Asriel being dead makes this inconcievable. "At first, I was so confused" means AT FIRST. When they first awakened. So yes, it can't be a plan with Frisk. It's the one with Asriel. Why were they alive if their plan failed? The one that got them both killed? They were detailing their inner thoughts here, in first-person.

"Our" is NOT Chara and us. It's Chara and Asriel. And yes, it wasn't genocide against the monsters.

The "fourth" warning actually DOES seemingly break character, and that's where my theory on the SOUL exchange begins. You see, they were clearly trying to trick Frisk into wanting destroying the world at this point. This is obvious, it most definitely is not pointless when you still have humans, and you still have monsters like Grillby, Alphys, Nice Cream Guy, Gerson, Catty and Bratty.. According to the countable SOULs in True Pacifist, more than 300 monsters exist. We didn't even kill half the monsters. (We DID kill all we COULD though.) Why? So they can eventually extort your SOUL out of you, of course! So they can take over whenever they want, and kill everything and everyone on the Surface, anytime you try to save everyone. They want you to think it's a comprosmise, but it's not. They also lie about moving onto the next world for a similar reason.

Frisk didn't cross the Barrier in Neutral. They couldn't. Neither could Chara. They NEED to erase the world to kill the humans. As for the more painful option? Why do you think they ask you to do a pacifist afterwards? So that they can actually cross the barrier from that run, then kill everyone personally.. With all those screams of agony and sadistic stuff they would want.

Now for warning five.

Yes, it's aimed at your direction. But tell me, why is there no SOUL shatter? Yes, you're booted out, but the same thing happens when Flowey takes over your SAVE. And what happens when Chara boots you out? CHARA takes over your SAVE. It's the exact same thing here. You find yourself in a void because the world is gone. They destroyed the world-Of COURSE you won't find anything. Of COURSE it's blank. Of COURSE it's not the world we've come to know.

Now, here's my interaction with Chara.

Chara:You want to go back. You want to go back to the world you destroyed.

Me:Actually, I don't. I'm interested in the next world you were talking about, come on, let's go there.

Chara:It was you who lead the world to its destruction. It was you who lead everything to its edge.

Me:Chara, stop ignoring me! (Okay, I didn't have that reaction, I know Chara can't hear what I say, but you get the point.)

By the way, being above consequences doesn't have to do with not caring that you just destroyed a world. It's then trying to come back to the world as if you never destroyed it. Of course, this is nothing but a big scam because we're never given the option to actualy move onto the next.

By the way, if a human stays in the void too long, I'm pretty sure they'd DIE. You know, no food, no water.. They're going to die eventually. Though I suppose you could say Chara's somehow keeping them alive..

Yes, Chara is laughing AT you in the Post-Geno Pacifist Ending. You think Chara had a change of heart, or that you could finally set things right, and so on. But then, they tear it away from you, and kill everyone anyway.

You:"I've changed, I've reformed!! Why does everyone have to die anyway?"

Chara:"BECAUSE I'M EVIL!! MUAHAHAHA!!!"

Oh, and by the way, we already stopped killing everyone. That's why we did Pacifist in the first place. So that's a DOUBLE-flaw with Judgement Boy's statement, when combined with the first flaw you said.

So.. You're saying Chara replaced Frisk? Makes no sense:How can Chara speak to Chara? It also makes the player Chara now, which makes even less sense.

Anyways, perverted sentimentality is recreating the world after you destroyed it. Should you CHOOSE to recreate the world again, another path is better suited.. So Chara could take control and kill everyone, of course.. And the way they WANTED it to be. Just a harmless ERASE isn't good enough for those "despicable" humans.

It's getting long again.. But next post is the Grand Finale.. So I guess we're both kind of making a similar claim here. We both say that Chara cooperates with you and that they end up double-crossing you. The differences are that I say that they do this in order to get after you for your actions, you say they do it in order to wipe out humanity and fulfill the plan they failed. You say they're a demon in that they're evil, I say they're a demon in that they're someone destined to bring suffering and torment unto those that commit it. But regardless, it was still actually interesting reading your own assertions, and it was enjoyable and refreshing. to see a Cooperation theory that's not from Nochocolate. It was a pleasure to meet you.