Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180916033612

"Stats are actually one of the simplest parts of it."

'Simple' is reserved for the quantum world, not a macro-scale phenomena. And once again, the macro scale world being quantized is reminiscent of a simulation, not a 'realistic' world.

"You've already made an explanation of HP, and I would consider magical attacks to be using a quantized form of magic"

An amount of water you can hold in your hands could be considered a quantized amount of water. In the case of monsters, we're talking about souls, and they all look the same to me, so sure, precise measurements are involved. I have no problem against that. But magnified "bits" of data, as presented by the "HUD", that's a totally different story altogether.

"As I've said before, the best way to look at a FIGHT is an alteration to the natural overworld."

But... why? WHY does the universe NEED to alter it? Also, HOW is it able to alter it?

"When your SOUL (with your essence) gets separated from your body"

You die. Simple as that. The HUD therefore cannot possibly be doing that.

"You don't exactly have any hands, after all."

But it stil has legs you're claiming...

"This method of using magic to trigger the weapon, is what we see as the FIGHT button"

I detect a head canon. There can be any explanation as to how and why that button is there. It's a totally arbitrary question.

"The ACT and MERCY buttons are more complex"

Then let's hear it. I'm intrigued.

"It's the ambient magic coming from monster attacks. That's enough to interfere with what we had absorbed. Looks like we have to wait until the attack is OVER, first."

Totally arbitrary explanation. We can just as easily say the universe uses our soul to read the soul of our enemy and generate the appropriate setting based on how would they resolve a fight were they not stuck in this dystopian setting. And since no one is asking any questions, it must be a natural occurrence for both us AND the monsters, implying this power exists everywhere.

We don't need any ambient magic or whatever. Just blame it on the sentience of the universe itself, that's a much simpler explanation. Just make sure to lock away your common sense first.

"If you stop trying to bring Toby into this, go back to looking for an in-game explanation, and don't ignore what Sans said like that, and start analyzing it as its own world, as it SHOULD be, THEN I'll stop the meta arguments."

Dropping Toby, we drop his idea of a universe where all of this is canon and go back to the dystopian simulation hypothesis. Though, consider, we don't need to do any of that. We can ignore the HUD at all times, except for the case of Sans's battle. And what is simpler, ignoring this battle, or rewriting logic itself? If battles and speech bubbles are all governed by the HUD, and according to this interpretation, the HUD is a mere translation method, then what we see is just a translation of the original, which could have been and probably was very different. So much so, it may have even been in accordance with these alternative rules.

"No, it's you grabbing what's not there."

It's literally there on the screen in front of your eyes, just like the buttons, just like the battle arena, just like the speech bubbles.

"He said what he said, don't add to it. He said:"Use the format of a video game to tell the story: traditional fourth-wall breaking tropes such as "SAVING," "EXP," and "LV" are an intergrated part of the game's world.""

I shan't then. Saving, exp, lv, all of those are canon. And nothing else concerning the HUD is. Moving on!

"and fourth-wall breaking TROPES are used."

Then let's agree, Flowey spoke of YouTube viewers at one point.

"Besides, as I said before, if that looks like a stretch, take into account that if the invisible walls WERE canon, Gaster would have taken advantage of it. He didn't, therefore, they're not canon."

And what kind of a lame ass deductive logic is this again?

"How did I give it to YOU?"

To my knowledge, you repeated the same thing they did.

"And it's not my fault that you don't interpret English properly."

No u. The power of a soul = soul's power = soul power. It is not my fault you nitpick.

Nowhere in the game it is said that souls have two distinct forms of power. No, when speaking of its power, the word is about its strength. And the plaques define soul strength as the ability to persist after death.

This is a definitive proof that soul power is determination, besides the obvious correlation between the two. What else do I have to say? Your entire counter argument is based on the fact that the two phrases, "soul power" and "the power of a soul" are not the same gramatically speaking... as if that actually made them semantically different.

No, this is a proof. Not a conjecture, not a hypothesis, not a theory, this is a canonical proof. Meaning, all related facts must be reinterpreted to fit this proof. Thank you for cooperating!

"That is horrendously weak, and correlation does not imply causation."

'Weak' is a subjective term, and although true, correlation does not imply causation, it also doesn't deny it. Besides, we were kinda left with no choice before. The correlation was there, nothing was pointing against it (not even your theses about a DT flux, since those could have been easily reexplained to fit this correlation), so I kind of assumed this has always been true. But now, I have a factual proof. Wait no, not "I," we do. This is our proof. This is canon. This is what the game is saying.

"He doesn't have to use his Twitter or any social media to say it-He can just put it in the game, and that's fine too. In fact, that's BETTER."

Nah, the media is faster. Remember his notorious laziness?

"Flowey said it himself, and transforms into Asriel."

He never said that he's Asriel. And Asriel never said that he's Flowey. Just something about """some""" flower. All of us of course knew he's talking about Flowey, but it's still an implication. I bet I could redo the entire plot line of Undertale, fully referencing myself to the canon, so that Flowey wouldn't be Asriel. I bet it would be possible.

"By the way, we do know two more things about Gaster, he created the CORE, and was a genius. It's anything beyond that which is mere speculation."

That comes bundled with being the "previous royal scientist", I didn't forget about those two facts.

"Oh, please, Alphys gave hints for my case."

Referencing soul power and DT in different contexts but never as a single thing at the same time? That's just induction, I cannot accept that as a proof. In fact, abiding by what is now the 'confirmed canon™', Alphys simply didn't know or didn't realize that those two were actually the same thing.

"Alphys wins, because the True Lab is way past Waterfall."

Once again, I have to repeat myself. You use that rule only if the two possibilities have the same weight. Earlier, we've had two true-by-default statements clashing against each other. Now, we have another such statement, but against someone's spoken word instead. If Alphys were right, that would not disprove the plaques. They have no reason to be lying, else their existence would be pointless. So that would rather imply the laws of soul mechanics have changed over the years. Which is a moronic assumption, as we can all guess. Ergo, Alphys's spoken word must have been wrong. We don't know where she pulled that information from, and we know she was wrong several other times too. Go figure the rest for yourself.

"RESET is simply the same as loading a blank SAVE, though. That's literally all a RESET is. "LOADing" the point in time where you first gained the ability."

Technically, that's not a save. Unless by a "blank save", you mean "nothing."

"Could you demonstrate?"

Tl;dr, Asriel had more cumulative DT than Frisk, but couldn't reset right away, since the composition of his soul laid out one more hurdle for him to overcome, and that is killing Frisk. But Frisk didn't want to accept this, so instead of their soul shattering and accepting its fate, it refused, which in itself was not an act of a superior determination, but merely the resolution of the full potential of a human soul, the power of determination. They were not more determined than Asriel, but were determined enough to persist. Same thing happened to Undyne in the genocide route. Not in control, but not dying either. That's all there is to it.

If you say it this way, you completely eliminate the problem Malice has been presenting.

''"like ASSUMING that "its power" (CLEARLY referring to the strength of the SOUL, based on the plaque it came before) suddenly means "Aha! It MUST be talking about this specific thing called SOUL power!""''

And why wouldn't it? Why wouldn't "soul power" and "the power of a soul" be the same thing? We're already assuming that the "DT extractor" extracts determination and not for instance deuterium+tritium, so what gives this time?

"Add in the composite SOUL rule though, and it becomes more complex."

Sure. And then compare that to Frisk's DT spontaneously multiplying seven-fold. A literal anticlimatic Mary Sue/Deux Ex Machina moment, versus the addition of a pretty basic rule. The one thing still bugging me though is reloading. Perhaps you could explain that. How exactly do you want to "turn canon" the fact that in order to reload/reset manually, you have to quit the game, without actually changing what the game shows us?

I'd add a new button that Frisk presses instead of literally quitting the world, just like I added that rule with composite souls. And while at it, I'd also tweak Chara's world-killing attack accordingly, so that it doesn't have to be so "meta".

"Undyne demonstrates exactly what it is that causes these fluctuations."

Internal/psychological dedication. I reckon the same happens with humans, except they don't create any new DT, they take from the pool they already have. The pool which makes their souls persist after death and occassionally heal them.

"You can be fulfilling more than one at the same time, yes."

I meant the definitions themselves. For example, integrity and justice are very similar, as they both deal with what is right and what is wrong. Of course, integrity is originality, but only according to Toby Fox. The dictionary would disagree.

"They don't. What they do cover is how well you are at solving problems, using the six main attributes to help you out."

Why ARE these the main attributes? Why not some others? Why is it all so arbitrary?

"But that's exactly what the composite SOUL theory is-A new concept."

Not exactly. It's a conjecture. I'm not actually introducing any new elements into play.

"You still fail to explain why Asgore would choose to dodge when it's clear he wants to lose."

Once again, I have to repeat myself. He managed to push through it at first. He was telling himself this was his duty as the king. But with us, he finally mentally snapped. No particular reason why, it had nothing to do with us, it was just the timing. You could say we were lucky.

Heh, I mean, if Toby didn't want this to become a plot hole, WHY did he affirm those abilities to the previous children at all?

In the end, we can only speculate, but we must always hold in our minds, that Asgore defeating between 1 and 6 children who all had the SLR ability IS canon.

"Why doesn't the essence just keep the DT after it has already been fed?"

The DT is burned as a fuel. The product is pure magic. That's what fuels the refuse process. Magic™.

"What did they attack according to your theory?"

Our access to the world. It was purely meta.

"Then neither can you call a mention of power of the strength of the SOUL as a proof, when there is no use of the term "SOUL power" at all, and it CLEARLY just means the power of DT!"

Yes. That's because the power of DT is soul power and nothing else. This is what the plaques have been referring to. It IS clearly JUST the power of DT, because soul power is literally nothing else. There is no other hidden variable, this is it, this is soul power.

"We already know that all humans have some of each of the six traits."

We know they have many traits that go by many names. Assuming they're humans like us that is. The question whether any of these manifest as physical substances, aside from DT, is unanswered however. And I'd not dare to assume so, it's a bold claim after all.

"That's for YOU to explain. That's a problem with YOUR theory. My theory simply says he can't do I, because we overtook his DT via a DT flux. Simple as that."

And I have rejected it, because one, it doesn't take into account our soul doing weird shit. If the soul doesn't want to shatter, then it must mean it would not take the control back if it were to do that... just as Asriel hinted. If we truly had the control, nothing would be at stake during that battle. And two, according to your theory, Frisk > Asriel > Omega Flowey > Frisk.

"By choosing a particular interpretation of the plaques, and using a terribly weak correlation."

A particular interpretation that is also the only logical one, and a terribly weak correlation that is deadpan simple and unshaken by the rest of the game's content. Even Nochocolate has admitted this as a canonical proof already.

Man, you must be in denial, there's no other explanation for your ridiculous reasoning.

"No, I analyzed the plaques, word for word, and showed how there is no actual reference to SOUL power at all here, just a vague "Its power", which is almost certainly talking about the plaque before it."

No shit Sherlock. That's because soul power, "ITS POWER", is DT and nothing else.

"Also, we're probably the first human to ever reach LV20."

Improbable. Stupidly improbable when you think about it.