Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170814193932

2) When the evidence doesn't fit the theory, you don't change the evidence, you change the theory. The evidence says the game the dog programmed IS Undertale, since the dog represents Toby. Therefore, the developer's room cannot be canon with the story.

And who said that futuristic cars cannot look sportsy? And also, flying cars are impractical. Even if the humans found a way to make them, and make them more efficient than normal cars, it wouldn't happen for a long time. Therefore, the game can't take place in the far future, but it CAN take place in the next 100 years. In 100 years, we will most likely be using self-driving cars for fast personal transportation, but not personal helicopters. Seriously, get real.

3) So they did. When you want to kill someone, the line between an obstacle and an enemy can become blurry. Just because Chara called them their enemy doesn't serve as a proof that they did it to end their worthless existence.

3.3) Well ok, I'll try to come up with a sufficient explanation for all of this.

When Chara and Asriel combined their souls, they actually got scrambled. The data in those souls got scrambled (after all, a new soul was created, they didn't just join, they literally fused together - otherwise Chara's soul would survive Asriel's death). The essences stayed though. It seems like the essence is capable of carrying a person's name, since Flowey too had his own save, which had his name, despite Flowey having no soul.

When Frisk created a save file, everything Chara's essence already contained got ported over, probably because it was older. Much older than Frisk. I don't know why it showed LV 1. That stat was present even during the very first encounter with Flowey, so it wasn't the first save point that created it. It was most likely Chara's stat, since Chara did have the ability to save before. It could be Frisk, but they didn't save yet during Flowey's first encounter. Now, the time. The time shows not Frisk's time, not Chara's time, but their shared time. It seems like time is calculated from the earliest instance of a system, and this system is Chara+Frisk in this case.

And I think this is how resets work too. Why would a reset, something so universal, have to send Frisk to a specific time and place each time? I'm guessing that it looks for an earliest instance of a system, and then sends the participant there. And the other humans? If they didn't have the ability to reset, then there's no problem. If they HAD the ability to reset, then the question is, what is the earliest instance of their system? If we go by the same logic, we would arrive at the conclusion that it is the time of their birth. Which is kinda dumb. So either they couldn't reset (but still could save and load, which would still explain why Toriel gets a deja vu from them), or they could, but the earliest instance of their system is when they first saved.

So then, why isn't that the earliest instance of our system? Something probably confused the reset ability, and instead of sending Frisk to their first save, it sent them to the very beginning of their shared existance with Chara. It's hard to come up with a sufficient answer for this, so I'll just stick with the explanation that something confused the save somehow for now.

Now, you asked why a reset doesn't bring us to Chara's time of entering the underground. It seems like I already provided an explanation. The system the save file is working with is Chara+Frisk, not just Chara.

Your other question was about determination. As I already pointed out, DT isn't exclusive to red souls, and monsters can have it too. It's even possible to isolate it and measure its amount. This leads me to believe that all creatures have varying amounts of DT. Just like every human has varying amounts of blood in them. It's always around 5 liters, but the chance that two randomly picked humans have the exact same amount of red blood cells at the moment of the picking is very low.

Determination isn't found in absolute quantities. It can change too. If two humans have DT, their amounts will probably vary.

This also brings me to another point. Frisk is in control of those saves, since he has determination. Chara has none, since they have no soul, so they can't share the control over the save in the first place - Chara is not the owner. Still, that doesn't mean the save can't acquire someone else's data. After all, we DO know that the save had Chara's name on it. The save wasn't theirs, but their name was there. We never see Chara doing the saving and resetting for us.

3.5) By game, I did mean the world, I guess. We are somewhere, and somehow, Chara can bring everything back. They're a god it seems. If Chara could destroy the world at any moment, why didn't they do it earlier? They acquired 20 LV after killing Sans, so then they could just end it all after that. And yet, they chose to do it manually. Manually kill Asgore and Flowey. If destroying the world destroys Flowey, then why not just destroy the world after reaching LV 20? I guess it was a personal revenge. But still, I can't get over the idea that whatever they've left behind is still there, we just can't access it. The world still exists, it's just been moved to a "trash bin". Chara doesn't have enough power to erase it permanently.

We can return to this trash bin, and that's what annoys Chara. That we want to return to something we trashed, that we convinced THEM to trash too.

3.6) Why? We don't know if it's capable of formulating sentences based on context. But we know that Frisk can. So why assume nonsense?

3.7) Chara never asked for the stats, we never did. We didn't even receive any options, since Flowey attacked first. If someone knows about the presence of a narrator, it's only because he/she asks for their stats. Even though I don't really believe that. But even if it's true, it didn't happen during Flowey's first encounter.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.1) Have you ever seen a proper snow crust? It looks absolutely smooth from far away. Now, the only way for there to be snow in Waterfall is if the temperature is below the freezing point, which means, the water is actually briny. Since everything flows into the dump, we would expect this salty water to flow there too, but then the golden flowers wouldn't bloom there. Besides, this doesn't seem like a very plausible theory. Waterfall is supposed to represent spring, so it can't be as cold as Snowdin, which represents winter. Ergo, the snow on Waterfall's station is also glitched, since Waterfall's temperature is above the freezing point. I still stand by my statement that if Papyrus were to stand at the Snowdin station, and Undyne at Waterfall, Sans wouldn't be able to have his station at both places at the same time without duplicating it. And Hotland? There are royal guards there too. I assume they would know about the existence of Sans's stations.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.2) "Kill or be killed" = don't trust anyone. Now, do you agree with me? You didn't address anything else.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.6) It is a plot hole. I hope you can agree with me on that. Perhaps someone should notify Toby? Though I don't think he will care. There are much bigger plot holes and forgotten lines of dialogue, and he never bothered to fix those.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.10) Whatever. Maybe. Probably. Most likely. I dunno. Do you still believe that Chara fell down thousands of years ago? I still believe that the sepia sequence portrays Chara, due to their shirt, and that the years are universal. Toby picked the year 201X because it coincides with the present, but that makes sense only in the context of the human race, but since monsters use it too, then it means monsters and humans use the same calendar. Even if the monsters were sealed underground in year 1, the difference wouldn't be that significant, observe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The Julian calendar was constructed 2000 years ago, and is off by only 2 weeks. There is no proof of monsters using a different calendar, so they are probably using the same one as the humans, albeit an unsynchronized one. Still, the error is minimal.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.11) The intro isn't a part of the canon story. The information it conveys is, but Frisk did not have a vision of it. That is ridiculous and you know it.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And the Lemon Bread moving the box? That's just the boundary Frisk can move in being Lemon Bread's jaw at that moment. And we can move before Sans falls asleep. We just can't interact with the border, since that wakes him up. We can safely move only after he falls asleep. There's my canon explanation for those two cases.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So again, I don't know why are you dragging relativity into this. I don't even think it's a good comparison. I think a better comparison is ether. People believed that light moves through ether, but in reality there's no such thing. What if the HUD isn't real as well, and everything can be explained without it? Just like I did it?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.13) If Frisk can hide their soul like that, then why would they ever have to show it again? And in case you reply that the monsters can forcefully pull the soul back into the fight, then why don't they ever do it in order to prevent Frisk from fighting/acting? And Flowey has a physical body, so we have proof that magic works on physical matter. So don't tell me attacking the body won't work.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And my explanation for the inability to flee? Asgore gave Frisk many opportunities to leave. When they enter a battle, they are decided to stay. And I guess that even if they wanted to flee, Asgore wouldn't let them. He is forcing us to fight. No fleeing, no mercy, just fight.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">5) Ok, let me say it like this. I don't think the player is a canon figure. Therefore, I think Chara inserted those two options on their own. Frisk didn't, since Chara later realized that Frisk didn't do what that option was describing. If Frisk was the one to add them, they for sure would also do what they were describing. So, Chara first assumed that Frisk did what was written there, but then corrected their narration.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And we don't get to assign anything to Frisk before we enter the underground. That was my point. Not even a name. Nothing.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">6) You found what I knew already. Flowey says it's a game. Of course it's a game, and it has simple rules: Win and be satisfied, or lose and keep playing with Flowey. O f course Flowey wants you to lose. Of course he wants you to stay. So that he can keep playing with you. That is his mentality. Who are YOU to think otherwise?

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> You may say that that's not how things are, but sadly, you can't. You can't tell Flowey that you can play with him even if you "win" the game. You simply can't, there's no button "tell him the truth". He even said that he will keep you in EVEN if everyone else gets a happy ending.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> He's absolutely convinced that you want to leave and never see him again. And what changed after we visit Asriel? Hard to say. First, he can't stay in that form. Second, he can't return in his other form either, he would just get obliterated by the angry mob that is everyone he ever hurt in that timeline. Maybe they might accept him, but only if he were to confess who he really is, and we know that that's never happening. So he must stay hidden. He can't play with you.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> And no, just because he called the current situation a "game" doesn't mean he's talking about the entire reality. He doesn't know that he's in a videogame called Undertale. That's not what his dialogue is implying. He just wants to continue playing with you. And what do you play? What do you call an activity that you can play? No, not a musical instrument. A game! A game, is played. He wants to play with you. For him, it is just a game. A game he wants to continue.