Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20190721003717/@comment-32182236-20200113123315

Even if Hard Mode is a play the characters are putting on for us, that doesn't mean it's devoid of useful information.

But as I pointed out, it being a play doesn't even make sense in canon. Frisk ACTUALLY attacks Toriel. By the rules of Normal Mode, Toriel should actually die from that. The fact that she didn't means that it's possible to just.. Not die. Something the monsters don't use in Normal Mode when it would REALLY help them.

And Toriel could have died. She specifically made it clear she just didn't feel like it, because Hard Mode is over. So it's not just a play, it's a play that monsters would literally DIE for just to keep it going. And it means Toriel knew about Frisk before they even arrived, which would mean there's a conspiracy going on between the humans and monsters to set this whole thing up. Which means they're actually friends, meaning the War likely didn't happen either...

Putting Hard Mode into canon ends up erasing everything else from canon. Demoting them to fiction witin that world. It ends up like Dream Theory for FNAF.

You say we should use the rules of science in our real world to solve problems in the worlds of FNAF and Undertale. But what if the rules of science are different in these worlds? Both properties involve science so advanced that it appears to be magic.

The physical laws may indeed be different. By the rules of science, I meant the rules we use to figure out those laws. We used the rules to find out what the laws of our world are, and we need to use them again to find out what the laws of Undertale's world is.

Even MatPat now thinks that both Charlie and Michael are androids in his latest video. Something I've been arguing for in the four years you've mentioned.

I was talking about UNDERTALE. Are you still so sure that we can throw out all the evidence in Sister Location that shows that Michael isn't as normal as he seems?

Do you not recall? I AGREE that Micheal must be an andriod! That's not the thing that made me leave FNAF.

Did you take me saying they should look for an explanation that keeps Micheal human as me saying I believe he is? That's not what I meant. I meant, if they don't think Micheal is an andriod, they should find an explanation that keeps Micheal human, rather than calling your evidence "mistakes" Scott made. I don't think they did this, though I'm not sure-I left FNAF a long time ago.

The baby vampire has Michael Afton's own color scheme of blue and purple, something we see in the child pictures as early as FNAF 2, and the Sister Location Custom Night cutscenes. While his father Vlad is solid purple, like William.

Actually, purple is a VERY common color to give to vampires.. And several other monsters in fact. In fact, it's become the sterotypical color of vampires. So we shouldn't be suprised that a vampire show has the vampires be purple. That's literally the main color of a vampire.

And blue goes with purple. See:Frisk.

The story involves a mansion like the FNAF 4 house

Why can't it just be a mansion, what makes you think it's like the FNAF4 house.. Which actually doesn't look like a mansion at all.

and a fire, which is also referenced many times from FNAF 3 onwards.

Fire is a VERY common trope for disaster.. In general. (In fiction, that is, but The Immortal and the Restless is a work of fiction.)

So many aspects of the story of The Immortal and the Restless touch on the real life and times of the Afton Family that it's very improbable that the opera ISN'T about Michael. Again, it's about discovering how the artist shares information with the audience, they can do whatever they like.

The whole plot of the show is Vlad saying the baby isn't his, the baby having powers that are only explainable if the baby IS a vampire.. And Clara trying to make it clear that YES, the baby is indeed HIS. That doesn't really reference anything we know about Micheal or William. The closest we get is a song from Ballora. (Something about being trapped? Abanoned? It's been a long time since I heard that song, I don't even know the title.)

So I do think that Undertale's Hard Mode does have canon evidence in it. Even if that evidence is presented second-hand in the form of a play.

An IMPOSSIBLE play. Or, if it is possible, it pretty much wipes all the lore we learn in Normal Mode out of canon.

I think there's a high possiblity that we might learn more about the original Alpha timeline by studying Hard Mode. The reason Sans knows about when Frisk is going to arrive, is that he made that trip himself at the same point in the other timeline. A timeline we're still trying to map.

The monsters actually act the same way they do in Normal Mode-The attacks are just harder, you can take fewer candies, and Toriel makes you snail pie instead of Cinnamon-Butterscotch. She still takes care of you, we still get a narrator, and Toriel still doesn't want us to go because others died before us, placing this after the second human past Chara. Which is strictly after the move.

I've accepted your idea that DeltaRune and it's dark world is a world after Gaster's Darkest Experiment. And present a hybrid theory between yours and mine: That Gaster's experiment turned the residents of the Underground into twisted Toys after removing their souls in his attempt to break the Barrier with harvested monster soul power.

Taking their SOULs should make them like Flowey, not turn them into toys. The Darkners might be dark clones of monsters, or an experiment to try and turn Toys into life. The legend is indeed that Darkners had no purpose until the Lighterns gave it to then.. Then they abandoned the Darkners. It seems to be that the Toys were brought to life. Gaster wasn't taking SOULs.. He was trying to make his own artifically. (And of course make an alternate timeline without the Barrier for monsters to escape to.)

Gaster either didn't bring the Undertale monsters to Deltarune yet, (and never did because the experiment went wrong, which I believe may be the plot of Deltarune) with the monsters we see being the Deltarune timeline version of them.. Or he did, meaning Deltarune didn't have any monsters of their own, or the Toys WERE the Detarune monsters.

Undertale's Hard Mode can be like the FNAF novels and games: Two related realities close enough to learn from each other, but also telling a different story. It might not be literally the whole truth, but casting the blanket ban of "Non Canon" on Hard Mode isn't accurate either.

Wasn't the novels just the same world, but from a vantage point that isn't as it seems?

And remember, it's not just the fact that Hard Mode is a play. It's everything that implies when looking at Hard Mode as a whole, though most notably the ending.