Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180705002739

"If everyone has DT, why SHOULD DT be a trait? In what extra way would that make it any more special?"

Seeing as nobody cowers in fear at absolutely everything, everyone has some bravery. So, if everyone has bravery, why SHOULD bravery be a trait? In what extra way would that make it any more special?

..See my point?

"Besides, it is implied the substance can be isolated and yet, the ball game implies that red is the sum of all the other traits or something. It all gets very complicated if we assume that DT is both a substance AND a soul trait."

DT's already complicated. DT identifies DT, the actual substance, as "the will to live". And it turns out to be true as well, as the case with Flowey. But, the will to live is purely mental, isn't it? And yet, it clearly manifests into a substance here. Undertale is a very, VERY strange world. ..But, let's adress the middle argument, since there's actually a good point in there-The red flag DOES show a combination of the six traits, implying this is a part of the red trait. If red is determination, we should be able to substitute red for determination here too, meaning determination is.. The combination of the other six traits?

MysteriousMalice has sort of the right idea with this-But that involves mixing routes, when we don't HAVE to do the Genocide Route-Therefore, it's flawed. But, let's try to fix this, by defining determination, and seeing how you might need the other traits to even HAVE determination.

As is the case with Undying, the will to achieve a goal would also increase DT, implying that BOTH are actually the same thing-Determination. So, keeping that in mind, what do you need to be determined in that regard? Determined, as Sans puts it? Well, the obvious stuff is bravery (If you're too scared to do it, you'll never succeed), perserveance (Self-explanatory), and patience (If you grow impatient, and can't wait longer, then that probably means you'll give up). But, I can't just end it here-Then it'd be half-baked! The ball game didn't say "with SOME of these", after all! So, let's look at how the game defines integrity, shall we?

"Hopping and twirling, your original style pulled you through."

Original style. Now, let's look at the OTHER red flag, shall we?

"Try as you might, you continue to be yourself".

Welp, looks like we have a link. But.. That's an argument of its own, isn't it? What does THAT have to with determination? Well, if "free will" is indeed a possible way to define determination as the OP suggests, we could link those two together, seeing as acting on your own will, and your own will alone fits being yourself.

Now, onto Kindness! Just like before, we need to look at the FLAG definitions-And the green flag states that it is your care and concern for BALL, the thing you're using, that lead you to a delicious victory. But wait.. Kindness like that doesn't just lead to a victory, does it? And what does this have to do with determination? Well.. I think I've found a way to prove that your older argument that attempted to show there was no contradiction between the traits and modes right, while trying to find out why you need green for determination. But, in a different way. "BALL" wasn't the issue here at all! It was our interpretation of "care and concern"! Sure, you can care, as we interpreted it, but we might also "care", as in, be passionate about it. That seems to be what Undyne wants you to be here, and it would explain the shield, and Undyhe's battle as a whole much better. Of course you're not giving care and concern to Undyne, but surely, you're passionate about the battle, right? Concern can even be interpreted in a similar fashion:Here's the OTHER definition of said word:

"a matter of interest or importance to someone".

..Could this also mean a kind of passion? This isn't something that we see in other traits, either. But yet, passion is a key part of determination! So, five down, one to go. This last one's the trickiest to dechipher.

Justice:"Your surefire accuracy put an end to the mayhem known as Ball".

Surefire accuracy? But.. That's a skill, not a trait! How are we supposed to turn THAT into a trait? Or even fighting style? Accuracy is very clearly a measure of SKILL. And "surefire" just means it is certain to succeed. Well, perhaps the true meaning behind the trait involves not specifically the accuracy, but the fact that it stops "mayhem". What IS mayhem, exactly?

"Violent or damaging disorder-Chaos."

Seeing as we're violent and damaging in Genocide, any arguments involving that portion are null anyway, so I won't even try there. (Though interestingly, we don't get the yellow upgrade in a Genocide Run..) "Chaos" is the part I'll be using.

So, if surefire accuracy puts an end to chaos, that means the yellow trait is more than likely order. It's accurate, and it would put an end to chaos, just like the description says. And doing things in an ORDERLY fashion IS something we do on both routes-It's not route-dependent. But, that just makes my argument better than Malice's, if I can't connect it to DT, it's pointless. Well.. Turns out we're missing yet another definition of determination!

"Firmness of purpose, resolution."

Chaos by definition has no purpose. Order, on the other hand, DOES. THIS is the missing link between justice and determination.

And, there you go!

"Which I've explained earlier by stating that Asgore truly is that strong, as to frustrate humans with the power to reset into willingly ending their lives. The sole reason we lost is because this was the first time his own guilt truly caught up to him (so a coincidence, but still)."

Nothing's changed, though. As Toriel pointed out, if Asgore REALLY wanted to free everyobe this way, he only needs one-He can take the other six from the Surface. The fact that he didn't do that shows his miserable state was like that AT THE EARLIEST since after he killed the first human.

"Recall the tutorial in the demo, which is made to be solely for the player"

..That old instruction manual? That's not actually a part of the game, it doesn't count. Of COURSE that's non-canon. Hence why I've never used it as evidence.

"or just the bizzare ending of the hard mode in general."

When you name Chara (first human) to be the same as Frisk (eigth human), you've already crossed the line and ruined the story. You made Frisk and Chara the same, when they aren't. I suppose if you don't take the game seriously, it won't take YOU seriously. (That ending happens just before Flowey would first mention Chara, unlike when the demo ends, which was shortly after, as you leave the RUINS. It's VERY clear that the relationship between Frisk and Chara is the reason behind this.)

"Or Flowey mentioning someone watching, which honestly makes more sense if that someone were YouTube viewers, rather than Chara. (I mean, how would he know about Chara in the first place, right?)"

...You think he wouldn't know about his own sibling? And if you meant Chara being the narrator, of COURSE he doesn't know that Chara is the narrator-Just that there IS a narrator, because he can read the HUD, just as we can read Flowey's HUD when he's Omega Flowey. After all, why would he knowingly call his best friend Chara a sicko? Plus he thinks you're Chara.)

"Frisk is literally the player in Glitchtale. Someone unique, although not overpowered. It's a funny head canon, to stretch Frisk's uniqueness past the ability to defeat Asgore so much, and I wouldn't be far from believing it, if it wasn't for our little DT dilemma."

What dillema? I've been the one making dillemas! Also, of course Frisk is the player.

..OH, you meant, as in, they're not from the Undertale world, the player LITERALLY entered the world of Undertale, and BECAME Frisk, didn't you? Glitchtale DOES make Undertale canonically a game, and Betty's actually the game trying to fix itself.. Yeah, I don't believe THAT. Frisk isn't the special one, it's just a SOUL type that other people like Chara had too! Frisk isn't THAT unique! Probably about 1 in 7 humans also have a red SOUL!

"Show."

Alright, let's see here.. Turns out I was thinking of Chara reading out text that happened to be yellow.. But, I still have a case. As we know, Chara's the one translatting the Froggits. Their original words have no yellow text, but the translation of the froggit that teaches you about sparing DOES, namely, in "ACT", "FIGHT", and "MERCY". Chara added that in themselves. So, it's clear they too have yellow text be used for mood.

"Also, genocide is irrelevant here. In those instances, it's as if a completely different person is speaking (the narration becomes much more subjective and everything), and entire sentences become red, not just a single word."

It's still the same narrator, and this is even in early genocide, where it's things like "Where are the knives?"

"Finally, in the genocide route, this red text is not present at all, further proving that it's not the same as the red text at the end of that run."

The Ball game IN GENERAL doesn't work in the Genocide Route.

"So if it's not that, then what is it? Just a mood swing? Wouldn't that be a bit of a coincidence? Why out of all things would Chara get irritated by a simple hole so much? It just makes no sense!"

Doesn't have to be irritation. In Toriel's case, "ASGORE" was red because that name was important-He was the one that would kill you. ASGORE was emphasized. Besides, "I unlocked the chain" was also red, and there was no irritation there!

"You cannot indoctrinate me on backwards information. If a being with 7 souls is less powerful than someone, a being with 6 souls would be too. No, there is something else at play here."

Yeah, a DT boost!

"And besides, if Frisk TRULY had more DT, then there would be no reason for their soul to refuse. And it's not to make us persist throughout the battle to make Asriel remember it, since Flowey can sense reloads even without any human souls, so even if we reloaded the battle, he would know what had happened, kinda like Dormamu after Doctor Strange reversed time each time he died."

Wait. Did you seriously think the advantage was so that Asriel would REMEMBER? Ha! No! I already told you what the advantage was:The battle continues where you left off, instead of you having to start all over. It's like "continuing" in an arcade game, instead of restarting. If Frisk died, DIDN'T give the power to Asriel (even though the game makes it clear that Frisk can't reach their SAVE to do that), sure, Asriel would remember, but he'd probably make Frisk start over. It might be something like:"Now, we face each other again. Prepare to lose again, to me, the GOD OF HYPERDEATH!"