Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180801120720

"Just because some do, doesn't mean that all do."

But it DOES make the idea of all of them FAR more plausible, and a reasonable explanation for the HUD, which is supported by Sans, Asgore, Gerson, Flowey...

"The monsters that do recognize us clearly state so,"

Toriel, Undyne, Alphys. Mettaton, Asgore. What do these five monsters all have in common? Did you guess "They all have formal jobs"? You would be correct!

Papyrus is a human-hunting FANATIC. Whom Sans warns you about because of the promise-So he's mentioning that you're a human in a similar way that Toriel does.. He was going for something like "Since you're a human, you have to watch out for my bro." But in a funnier, (bad) jokier way. (He likes bad jokes)

"the Froggits somehow seem unshaken about our presence (probably due to them realizing that you can't hurt them; after all, they know a lot about the game in general, so they're most likely an exception too),"

They really only seem to know about the existence of the four things that a human can do, and don't know what a "full screen" is. Makes it look like they only had some of this from hearing about it from someone else.

"and the monsters at the end can be explained with the Asgore argument."

What does bad names have anything to do with this?

"But the rest doesn't seem to have any reason to be so quiet about this fact while acting so normally at the same time."

Maybe they're not hateful of humans..?

"If they knew, they shouldn't be offering their services to us."

They already know Asgore will kill you. Why should they try to attack? They KNOW you're going to lose. (At least they think they know..) Papyrus already alerted the authorties, there's nothing left.

"And pretending doesn't seem to be in their nature. So the only explanation for their hospitality is that they simply don't know."

You're putting down an explanation based on an assumption? Seriously?

...Look. Maybe not every single monster is someone who enjoys killing and the idea of literally killing all of humanity, and they genuinely care about humans. Maybe, even though the book saying they were LITERALLY made of hope, love, and compassion was wrong, they generally have these traits in abundance. (GENERALLY. It's not a rule, even if they like to say it is. We've seen exceptions to the "rule".) Or maybe they were, but the humans before us befriended them, changing thier outlook, just like what we do to some monsters we encounter here in the present day.

"Well then, show me. It's not like I missed anything. I probably have an explanation for them stashed somewhere at the back of my head."

...It's the quotes I was talking about. But, here's more analysis on the Froggit quote.

"If you ACT a certain way or FIGHT until you almost defeatthem.. They might not want to fight you anymore. If they do not want to fight you... Please, use some MERCY, human."

This means if a monster DOESN'T want to fight, you should use MERCY-AKA sparing them. Which means if you CAN'T spare them, they DO want to fight. It's that simple. And since monsters violently attacking each other for no reason would be far-fetched, this all but confirms they know you are a human.

"That still doesn't mean everyone can use it."

..It's the food that monsters EAT. Which means conjuring up green magic is at least as easy as making food. Probably easier.

Really, it's just another magic type. Nothing more. It's just as simple as a white bullet.

"You can describe any phenomena in the game as a rule with exceptions, for the sake of simplicity. You then additionally explain those exceptions and you've got the entire game described."

Yet we haven't EXPLAINED the whole game.

"Yes. But there's always a reason behind the exception, that differentiates it from the rest of the cases."

In this case, it happens to be the only time that we can act on more than one monster at a time.

"In this case, it is the nature of the amalgamates. That could very well be the explanation."

It could be that they are all one entity.

"And then we can blame the existence of this rule on the HUD and move on."

I already did that, since the HUD's WHY you can onoy act on one monster at a time.

"The existence of such subject is assuming the humans have always had this power, which would give the monsters enough time to get used to it and start studying it."

Exactly my argument. That's what I'm saying they did.

"To even figure out how to dodge, how to shatter buttons, et cetera. Explain that."

....That requies several leaps of logic that would rrquire some kind of genius. Like Sans or Gaster. For the longest time, they would go with the simpler explanation, like we did with Newton. They attack, the human SOUL seemingly vanishes, then the human either spares, uses an item, attacks, or does an action, then it's the monster's turn again, and the SOUL is teleported, likely by monster magic, back into the box. That's easy to discover. But the idea that four invisible buttons are what causes this to happen, that they can be destroyed, and that the invisible attack CAN be dodged by moving at just the right time? THOSE require more genius-level thinking to reach. What ordinary monster would come to this conclusion? Why would they think of that?

"That's true only if the above is true"

The idea of monsters having enough time to get used to it because it always existed? Yeah, that's true.

"If the humans have for example gained this ability only after Gaster's infamous experiment as some theories are claiming, and if monsters themselves don't have this due to their lack of DT, then the existence of such school subject is impossible."

..Gaster fell into the CORE. Nothing more. Gaster wouldn't try giving humans such a power. It wouldn't benefit the monsters at all, and would only ensure that a human would succeed instead. Like us.

"And mind you, you haven't proven they have this subject yet, so don't try to use this as an argument that my original assumption is wrong."

I'm using this as an argument that you don't need this assumption, and since the HUD is CLEARLY said to exist, we go with that, and now, there is no plot hole.

"Implying what?"

Implying they would more than likely be taught these things. If they're inevitably going to find a human in their lifetime, they ought to know what to do, and how it works. And how to recognize a human.

"Gravitons."

A hypothetical particle? If that's separate from the Higgs-Boson, the supposed creator of mass, then why is the number of gravitons ALWAYS proportionate to the number of Higgs-Bosons?

"What do you mean "charges?""

Electrical charges-The reasons for the elctromagnetic force.

"Yes. σ(x)*σ(p) ≥ ħ/2 and ħ/2 ≤ σ(x)*σ(p)."

Yes, but.. Why?

"Then explain it."

...I'm asking you to explain these mysteries first. Until then, look at what I have, going only as deep into the HUD as you did with my three laws. It's directly below what you quoted.

"Indeed. An overpowering noise."

..okay..

"No, that's not what I meant and you know that god damn well. I meant they did that after the barrier broke, but before Frisk woke up."

...There is no indication that SOULs can speak. Also, didn't you just say they shattered just after the barrier broke? They wouldn't have time to tell Toriel if that's really the case!

"They're said to persist due to their life cycle. And I don't think the life cycle is DT-based."

...DT is the will to live. So yes, it is. DT and life are one and the same. That's why DT brings Flowey back to life.

"I don't think there is any DT flowing in between boss monsters."

Then they're dead.

"So rather, I think it is the energy of their life cycle being wasted on their soul that makes them persist."

Which is DT, or "DT magic".

"Also, you are forgetting how powerful Undyne was, yet her soul didn't persist a single second."

Her entire BODY and SOUL persisted several MINUTES. She technically "died" the first time aroun, but persisted for the entirety of the Undying fight.

"And on the other hand, the Dreemurrs weren't even trying that hard to stay alive, they both seemed to accept their demise (Asgore can even die willingly if you don't give him mercy - this is the case because he died at the same moment Flowey would have attacked him, which is a bit of a coincidence, his natural death occuring the moment someone else tries to kill him, don't you think?), yet their souls persisted."

First off, it's if you DO give him mercy, and you play a Pacifist Neutral run, after having beaten the game before. Don't give him mercy and YOU kill him. Second, there is no indication that Toriel was happy with her death, or accepted it. Thirdly, we have another dillema... And it has to do with the six human SOULs.

If they could SAVE and LOAD, then they MUST have accepted their deaths, else they would reload. Therefore, they should not have persisted according to these rules, thus we have a contradiction. Therefore, we can also define DT as the will to persist-To live on in the afterlife, as a SOUL, rather than in the physical realm. This is how Asgore could have persisted-He did have the will to persist. Why? So you could absorb his SOUL, of course!

If they COULDN'T.. Well, then it all makes sense, and your argument has merit.

"Here's an explanation for you: it's meta, and meta content is to be ignored."

So a reasonable explanation, or flat-out tossing out evidence because it doesn't fit your theory. I choose the former.

"Not like this. The context of the conversation CLEARLY implies they are talking about a literal freedom. Clearly, absolutely, meaning nothing else whatsoever. End of the debate. The end. Period."

...How? I told you, they might want you to be happy that with your sacrifice, ALL of monsters are free. You'll have freed everyone. A hero to the monsters.

"We encountered them. Hence why the encounter sound played."

...It plays when THEY encounter us. That's how the system works-THEY come to attack YOU. Since the same sound plays, and the same icon, that should mean the rule keeps up-They're encountering you.

"And still, even if we didn't ask, the assuming part still works. They assumed we are young and didn't know the story yet (especially since we are a new face). Maybe, I dunno, Asgore allows the monsters to live there or nearby, and they are obligated to automatically tell the young about what happened there. Which would honestly explain Asgore's absence and his generally surprised face when he sees us."

Well, we ARE a new face. ..Looks like we've lost one piece of evidence. But we both have an idea on the matter. And one solves a plot hole. And there's still such a thing as school.

"Indeed. The physical matter. The essence always lingers to something physical. At least that's my hypothesis."

Mine as well. Also why we bring Chara back-We bumped into their grave, causing their essence to be connected with ours when oir DT brings them back.

"IS it possible to change your entire personality, your entire being like that?"

Who knows? But you've got the right idea about it being less likely than it seems. That's why Frisk is red the whole game. If it's not possible at all, then there's now no reason to assume that there's a problem with the human keeping the same SOUL color for all their life.

"You know, this is one of the reasons I assumed red might just be a scrap category for souls that do not fit any of the other 6. After all, there's more personality types than just those 6 mentioned."

Which completely contradicts the red flag, which CLEARLY states that red is a mixture of all six.

"Some may not come close to any of them, hence why this one is needed."

Whatever's closest. And closest to balanced is a thing too.

"Though, I don't think it's used for people that do not fit any of the other six perfectly, nor that only people that are "prefectly balanced" fit into this scrap category. The dividing line is somewhere in between, I dare to say to maintain the same number of red soul people as there is of any other soul type."

It's no scrap category, it's a category for balance of all six. But if the six are close together, even with some variance between each individual one, red's still most likely.

"So you think the soul color of children can change? Kinda like in the movie Golden Compass with the demons? That would be an interesting thought, but Frisk's soul stays the same, despite going through many challenges along the path, which kinda speaks against such possibility (and the soul modes don't count, since those are applied by the monsters)."

Only if we assume the idea of changing your entire personality is possible. If it isn't, we can ditch this whole idea. Also, Frisk is filled with more DT than anything else. So.. Of course it wouldn't change.

"You sure about that? I don't see how that can be the case, nor how my explanation might be wrong."

In New Home, there is nothing that you do at all. Yet you still have the DT to SAVE/LOAD. And healed. So, you're still filled with determination.

"They don't play, they crinkle through them (with their legs)."

We don't see that either.

"Well, what says other things also don't fill us with determination?"

The narrator never says so, and we can't SAVE. Unless you think that maybe the narrator CAN be wrong on filling with determination sometimes after all....

"Maybe we can't know they do only because there's no save point window to remind us that they do."

Simpler to say the window itself is what does it.

"And determination itself is only relevant in relevant situations, such as accessing something you need DT for, hence why we aren't reminded this when inspecting other objects. Although, if the save point can heal us, maybe it can access our DT too."

Or fill us with DT, like it does with hit points.

"I don't think that is necessarily a rule though."

It IS a rule. You can't see something if you're not there. That's one of the most basic, and obvious rules to EVER exist. As simple as "I think, therefore I am!" You see, therefore you are!

"Meaning both would hear it, meaning it is still rude to talk about someone who is listening, regardless of context."

Hey, this IS Flowey we're talking about. He's SOULless. Probably doesn't care that he's being rude to Frisk. Don't think he'd care in Gaster's case either if he remembered Gaster.

"Why do people talk to the graves of their deceased relatives? Surely they've gone mad?"

...They do that outside of movies?

They probably do it because they think they're still there, listening. You know, since they believe there's life after death. That doesn't fit Asriel's conclusion that Chara is GONE, rather than still living, still alive somewhere.. Out there, listening..

"Hence why I speculated that Flowey is actually talking to the player there."

While I have a simpler explanation that doesn't assume the world is canonically a game like OneShot.

"Explain the trees."

..They were PLANTED? They had over a thousand years by the time we came around.

"No, the barrier is generating light. Reflecting is the exact opposite of letting it through. It's either transparent, or the room is pitch-black."

It's usually transparent, but because anything can enter, and nothing except beings with a powerful SOUL can leave, that includes light. So light can enter, but it can't leave. Kind of like a black hole in that regard, minus the gravity. Though in this case, we're looking from INSIDE the "black hole", making it appear white. That's why we don't see any light when we look down into the hole in the intro. It's not coming out to reach us. Pitch-black.

"Because he programmed the game? In the laziest way possible?"

Did he spend most of his time programming or making the story? Years of development is how long it takes AAA developers to make their games. And how long Undertale was developed for. And just like these developers, Toby had a team.

"Also known as "minigolf.""

Yes, but that means in the flags, "BALL" is likely referring to that game. In several cases, it has been proven to be the case.

"Which means you are wrong, because the ball is not an obstacle, obviously. It's an object that allows us to win the game."

The game ITSELF is the obstacle, and THAT is what "Ball" is according to the flags.

"The absolute psychological basis is survival, which is connected to fear."

It IS survival, that much is true. Which fits in-game DT to a T.

"Green attacks, green mode, green souls. This particular color gives us the most info about itself. I think every aspect of it counts. This is how I formulated my hypothesis, that green is causality. Shield and healing = reality disconnection + time reversal. You mark the area you want to unwind and then you follow so."

So.. The powers of DT.

Also, it could be that care and concern PERIOD is green. Passion, COMpassion.. They might both fit.

"It's about spacetime. Cyan detects movement. It detects acceleration. Acceleration affects spacetime. And just so that you wouldn't say, since orange has a different color, it cannot simply be an inversion of cyan (which is funny, because since the 1.1 patch, cyan attacks are a bit more blue, meaning their color inverse is orange instead of red), it has to be something different, hence why I connected orange to energy. Getting hurt when not moving = orange energy building up in you."

The problem was you assuming bravery implied impatience, or that patience implied fear-Not their different strategies. Remember, fear is running away entirely. Waiting for the perfect oppertunity, then making a bold strike? Still works. Orange IS an inverted cyan based on color theory. Yellow and blue are somewhat opposite as well-Order versus creativity.

"Or maybe everything. I think it does make sense. KR inflicts poison. Poison = persevering attack."

Then that's the FULL connection.

"KR seems more like a spell than a simple distinguishing mark to me."

But only the mark is purple. And poison is classicaly associated with purple (color, not trait) anyway.

"It however has a lot to do with being restricted to strings. You are being streamlined into a particular action. To persevere, you already know your goal, already know what must be done, you employ your full knowledge and do it."

No, you take notes, as the purple flag flat-out SAYS YOU DO. You use trial-and-error.