Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170909153214

1) Logically speaking, he wasn't able to turn back into that form, since he gave all the souls away. All of them. He wouldn't be lying to us about that. Now, it's important to remember that after fighting Toriel, you can go back to that same area and she will be there. So probably the only reason why Toby put Asriel there (besides him explaining certain things to us - which he could have done still in the black void) was so that it would reference this. But ok, he's there, so let's talk about that.

As I said, maybe the immense magic that he just possessed gave him and his emotions the ability to persist for some extra time. That's definitely possible. But, he can't cast his OP spells or turn into his other form in this state, since he actually doesn't HAVE the magic. If anything, I think this is similar to boss monster souls, which persist for a short amount of time after death. They DO persist, but they aren't ALIVE anymore. The monster just died. Same thing here, Asriel still persists, but he can't use the magic. Actually, I think he can, but it would immediately turn him back into Flowey.

And how would he be showing us his HUD, from the perspective of our own HUD? I thought you said that no human or monster can see the HUD of other humans/monsters? But even if that was possible, I don't think we would see it from a first-person perspective. That's just too sketchy to be true.

2) The dog programmed an entire game. Notice the past tense. And it is implied the game in the corner is Undertale, since Toby made no other big game yet. And he did not foreshadow an upcoming game by that. No, it was meant to symbolize Undertale. The entire room was symbolic. It actually makes MORE sesne for that game to be Undertale, than some other upcoming game, since the rest of the room hints at what Toby did, not what he's planning to do next. I repeat, the room is not canon. I dare you to ask Toby himself. Ask him whether does the game in the corner represent an upcoming game or not.

3) It's cheaper with a disc. And besides, we have those tools now. We have programs and plugins that can emulate essentially any sound. So why are people still using discs today? Because they're cool and fun to use.

4+5+8) The monsters got there through the BARRIER. And the hole might have naturally opened up, perhaps during an earthquake. After all, there is a pool of magma in Hotland, implying that earthquakes can happen. Perhaps that's what trashed Home - besides the time itself. And it's not just that. There are literally holes in the floor. So the natural caves are falling apart too. And Asriel+Chara's soul does fit the definition of a "powerful soul". After all, they combined their souls into one. This is unlike Flowey, who absorbed 6 - he had them, but they couldn't "fuse" with anything. On the other hand, Chara's soul fused with Asriel's.

All in all, I don't see any flaws in the credibility of the plaques. Toby put them there not so that we would question them, but so that we would learn more about the plot. What about the monsters that tell the story of Asriel and Chara? They possibly couldn't have known what happened at the surface and yet, they tell us everything. Again, I don't think it's the king feeding the monsters with fabricated stories, but again Toby giving us some direct information.

This is your problem. You assume that everything in Undertale has a logical "inside" explanation. You believe it so much you practically can't see through some obvious bullshit.

Also, I never said that a theory of everything (of Undertale) also must be perfect. I hinted at the fact that you're trying to construct the broadest theory possible, while it's in fact falling apart in your own hands.

6) When I said visibly, I meant everything that happens outside of Frisk's head. This includes visual cues, but also sounds, or smells. And I do think the wave represents a sound wave. That's the only type of wave that can fit the definition of an "ACT".

7) You reset in the menu, and there's no soul visible in the menu. So nope, Frisk can ONLY reset without a soul being visible.

8) So you admit that you believe there is no canon universe, and that everyone is just an actor? Well who would have guessed! This LITERALLY crushes all other theories!

No seriously, isn't this exactly what you were trying to disprove, by saying the game is canonically not a game?

9) I don't think different "worlds" get loaded. It may be possible, but Frisk doesn't wake up lying on the ground when Flowey loads. And besides, Flowey destroyed our save file, so how would we load the old world back then? I don't think he saved it. If he's ready to spew nightmares, then he wouldn't do that.

11) As I said already, perhaps it was the fact that Flowey had more than one soul in him that made a transfer of power impossible without killing Frisk. Something had to "kickstart" the process, and apparently, absorbing more souls didn't do it.

And it is impossible to have tied amounts of determination for long periods of time, simply BECAUSE of the sole fact that they can fluctuate.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Next, monsters are trying to shatter the barrier, not pass through it. Passing through DOES require a monster and a human soul. It doesn't matter whether soul power is or is not determination. Without a monster soul, you can't do it. So I argued that there's something special about monster souls and then came up with the equations (read below).

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Next, the barrier is a magic spell, yes, but I didn't say that magic is needed to break it. I know it is soul power that is required. So, if human souls have so much more soul power than monsters, and they also have so much more determination, don't you think those two are tied together? Perhaps they're the same thing even?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">"Do note that with seven SOULs, the barrier can be destroyed, even if not a single monster SOUL partatkes in it. The amount of magic contained does not matter, merely the DT does."

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So, you DO agree that it is DT that matters when it comes to breaking the barrier then? Does that not imply that DT in fact IS soul power? Remember, the barrier is a magic spell, even the intro said that. So obviously it's not made out of DT, but magic (to clear it up, it is made out of magic, but soul power is required to break it). I myself actually never said that it was made out of DT. No, but there is something connecting all souls. The measurement of their power. And human DT seems to be the biggest contributor to this measurement. So it makes sense to say that determination is soul power. Monster souls are also a contributor, but not a particularly big one (it takes many monster souls to equate one human soul). And since monsters have very little determination, it again makes sense to say that that's why they have so little soul power.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And this actually means that Alphys got her terms confused. The barrier is NOT locked by soul power, since there are no souls in it. Still, it requires lots of soul power to break it. So her approach was correct after all. She just incorrectly assumed that it is soul power that the barrier is made out of.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">"Therefore, naturally, it shouldn't require a monster SOUL to cross the barrier."

<p style="font-weight:normal;">You can't just add up the soul power, since your calculations yielded an incorrect result. You argued that since DT can fluctuate, it would mean that a monster soul isn't needed. But a monster soul in fact IS needed! If something contradicts obvious evidence, then it is incorrect. Isn't that what you were trying to tell me all this time? I am sorry but who is right? Your calculations, or Toby Fox's word? I am siding with the punny guy here.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So, since monster souls are needed, they obviously have something the humans don't have. I have assumed it is magic, since there's nothing else left - they have less DT, so for this to work, they MUST have more of something else, and they have nothing else BUT magic. Or there's some extra weird component that has yet to be revealed by Toby Fox, but my explanation is already making sense, so I'm going with it. Besides, I think it makes more sense to go for the simpler solution here.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Now, please, review my equations. I think I got it all right. The recipe for crossing the barrier is some amount of DT, some amount of magic, and maybe the number of essences also plays a role, but who knows. The point is, it's not just about soul power. Soul power is the thing that makes souls strong. Determination makes souls strong. Magic doesn't. Magic on the other hand is required for a soul filled with determination to pass through the barrier.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So, what do you think? I think this theory is nice and elegant. DT+M = pass, DT*7 = break.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">11.11) This also bites another topic. The ancient magicians. If humans have so little magic, then how could've they been so stong? Have the humans forgotten their own magic over the millenia? Or were the ancient magicians some weird "hybrid" race that can have both DT and magic at the same time? Wouldn't that imply that they could pass through the barrier freely at any time? I actually think not, since the fusion of two souls has two essences, but these "magicians" would have only one essense. So I think the number of essences plays a role after all.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Again, what do you think? I already made my own story, my own AU based on this delicious theory.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">12) No. Asgore declared that they will wait for 7 humans. Toriel left the moment he declared that, before the first human (after Chara) even arrived. There was no point in waiting until one does fall down and then seeing what her husband would do with that soul, if she already knew he chose to store it in a jar.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">13) I don't see it. It is implied that since Frisk denied it, they denied all laughter. There is no evidence that they actually laughed besides us pressing the button. And Chara's statement was a counter-evidence to that. The sole fact that Chara made a contradictory statement is why I'm questioning this. If Chara didn't inform us, then I wouldn't say anything. But they did. It could be just Chara being weird, but then again, how many times have they properly failed to describe Frisk's actions? Is this the first time? If yes, then maybe there's something behind it. Maybe Frisk didn't do what we told them to do after all. And we told them to laugh.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">14) Neutral - If you believe that Frisk is the player, then he was talking to the player too. Pacifist - Not really. Why would it be Chara? Just because he said their name? As I explained, that name can be used for the player too. And there's no evidence that Chara had the power he talked about in the first place. As far as I know, Chara is just a passanger, and we / Frisk are the driver. So I don't know if Chara has the true reset power. I mean, it makes no sense. Why should Frisk have a normal reset, but not the true one? Genocide - HOW can he know there is a narrator? If he figured it out, why didn't he do so in any other route, and why only at the end of this one? Was it our murderous ways that convinced Flowey that there is someone in there with us? How would THAT work?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Particles are probability clouds. They do change, even if not observed. All of this is more complicated than a precise position we get when we observe them. So no, our universe can't be a simulation, because it's more complicated when we DON'T look.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And no one can apparently hear the narrator except for Napstablook and Tsunderplane. This isn't enough evidence to say that everyone hears them. Since Napstablook is a ghost, and Tsunderplane is a machine. Perhaps such creatures are an exception from a rule. Has that ever occured to you?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And with all these rules and you inserting so much into the canon storyline, I think it's safe to say that the world is canonically code, but the characters just aren't realizing it, because they can't. This is because without code, the HUD is a mathematical nonsense. And even if we found a way to describe it, the explanation that the Undertale universe is built on code will always, always be simpler.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">But I went a step further and declared all this stuff to be bs, since Undertale never itself acknowledged to be a game. I wanted to have a normal universe, that would be built on our laws, and would disregard ALL of the 4th-wall breaking stuff. Why? Well, I said it already, because Undertale never acknowledged itself. Oneshot did, and I have no problem with that. But with Undertale, the idea that the world is "real" is so much nicer than if it's just some virtual code. The biggest counterargument to this is Sans's battle, but I already showed you that I can translate everything the HUD shows us into a "real-world" event.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And the player. Yes, no matter what we say, the player can always be disregarded and evidence can be bent to fit our theory. Whether it is that the universe is code, or if the way we see the game a skewed version of the actual in-game reality happening.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">15) And when Flowey did the vines, he didn't absorb anyone's souls yet. That started happening only after he said that everyone is so stupid. And he said that only after realizing that the twist of the situation is actually beneficial to him. When the other monsters showed, he was genuinely surprised. And before that, he was genuinely angry, since everyone was deflecting his attacks. However, I suspect the moment he said his first word after this twist (the shaky "Urrgh"), I suspect he already planned his little surprise, since he already figured the situation turned from good to better for him.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">All of this led me to believe he never planned for the other monsters to show, since he was actually surprised. Whatever he wanted to accomplish, Toriel, Asgore, Alphys, Undyne, Papyrus and Sans was enough for him. He wanted to break Frisk there. So if he brought those monsters there, he too would get them with his vines. But no, he stuttered, and then went with his final plan.