Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-25672219-20170405004515/@comment-27701762-20170406071033

The herobriner wrote: it is barely talked about by anyone about the deja vu caused by the RESETS. there simply isn't a lot of information avalable. but if monsters would have any sort of trace memories between RESETs, then the same should be true for all of the ones that Flowey did, right?

I'm happy to admit that there's an issue that needs to be solved about why the majority of monsters don't seem to remember anything Flowey did. But this same problem exists for your argument, because even if all a reset does is give monsters a feeling that they "should" remember something, that same hole exists, as the number of actions Flowey did should leave all monsters with the feeling they "should" remember some of the things Flowey did.

Meanwhile, there is plenty of evidence that the characters actually remember these events. Again, not in a clear and vivid manner. But they remember them: there is Toriel accurately guessing Frisk's preference (based on what was said previously), and specifically saying that it feels like she knew all of the humans before actually meeting them; there is Papyrus noting the familiarity of the rock he confuses for the human; there is Undyne getting the feeling that she befriended and even remembered befriending the human. These quotes definitely aren't accidental, and clearly are meant to convey that the characters are remembering across timelines.

statistical likelyhood aside, think for a moment how frequently 'statistically improbable' things happen in videogames. it is 'statistically improbable' that we will have a zombie apocalyps, but we play games about them anyways. it is 'statistically improbable' that a lost race of monsters would live underneath a mountain, but then we play a game about a human in that exact scenario. the statisticall probability that a game is even possible means that it is capable of happening. so maybe Frisk just got lucky, we dont know. (but my 'the player' point can counter this.) I think this is a good time to return to my original point.

The fact that this background story is so incredibly convoluted just to get to an explanation of a particular line in the game's narration shows that this theory is contorting and twisting itself to preserve a particular conclusion. Think about all of the necessary plot elements that need to be true just for this theory to work. Then think about the fact that none of those plot elements are even vaguely hinted at at any point.

In contrast, think about the explanation I offered earlier: humans are just much stronger than monsters, so monsters simply weren't powerful enough to kill a single human, and Asgore's line is talking about his recollection of killing Frisk (an interpretation of the line that works just as well with your "monsters 'should' remember X" reading). It is a simple explanation of the background plot, and is explicitly supported by the game's text.

The original idea might have been cool, but if preserving the conclusion means essentially doing violence to what the game is actually saying, then why is the conclusion worth preserving?

no, we are in control the ENTIRE TIME. at any point we can close the game and decide to LOAD or RESET. the only time we actually lose control over the timeline is whenever the game crashes. this happens only twice, once with omega Flowey, who overrides your control and kicks you out. there is no telling what he did between when the game crashed and when we tried to open it again. anyways, Flowey is toying with you and LOADing for you every time you die so that he can get to kill you again. the other time the game will crash is when Chara 'kills' you in the genocide run. and by that, i mean slashing the game itself. they hadn't actually taken full control over it yet, just been able to move Frisk for you and take over command prompts, such as attacking sans or Asgore. but after you kill Flowey, you lose the ability to close the game. you literally cant, other than going into task manager and force closing it. anyways, after you are gone, Chara killed Flowey already, and you are out of the way as well. they could easily have the determination then to destroy the world when you come back.

also, Frisk doesn't remember through a TRUE RESET either. there IS evidence to back this up and i WILL fight you on that point. i dont think even once does Frisk actually have the power to RESET. Your description makes sense, except for one major flaw: save points. The way saving, loading, and resetting work is by the person who has the power having a save point that they can go back to. But the person who makes the save points is Frisk, as it is Frisk who is given determination by particular events or sights in the Underground that allow them to save at particular places. For example, Frisk crinkling the leaves in the Ruins, feeling dread in Waterfall, and smelling ozone in the Core. The save points and their dialogue indicate that it is Frisk being filled with determination to save, not the player. Which means it is Frisk who is in control for much of the game. What the player is relative to this is unclear, but it is not as the supplier of the power to save.

An alternative explanation is that Chara is the one who always has the power to save, and is essentially lending it to Frisk, and that what we as player are doing is playing as Chara controlling Frisk. This is not a perfect explanation, but at least solves part of the dilemma.

I am aware that Frisk does not remember across True Resets, and I never said or implied anything to the contrary. I completely agree with the claim that Frisk loses the ability to save and reset at the end of the True Pacifist and Genocide routes. But I dispute the claim that it is simply because a more determined being happened to come along at one of those two points. In the True Pacifist route, it is because Frisk leaves the Underground, leaving the only beings in the Underground that still have determination as Flowey and Chara/the player. Which gets to my overall argument about the power to reset which is that it is only capable of being exercised in the Underground. In the Genocide route, it is still technically Frisk who has the power to save, but Chara has simply taken over Frisk's body and is able to exercise that power on their own, meaning that Chara is the one who is actually in control. In these cases, the power to reset is not some special power that humans have always had, but is restricted to a specific place.