Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20171213151556/@comment-27136653-20180211124527

"You misinterpreted my statement again. I said the USDA didn't exist when the monsters were firstbanished underground, not when the game takes place. As I stated in the original timeline, the game takes place in the present, centuries after this initial banishment, and it is during that time gap the USDA was created."

Then what the hell do you keep arguing about? If there's no problem then don't try to make one. Vegetoid is not monitored by the USDA since the USDA doesn't know about its existence. Done. End of discussion.

"...War bonnets had to be earned, they weren't just something everyone had-In fact, the number that wore those were quite few. It being commonplace is a sterotype, and not historically accurate. It could be the humans depicted did not earn their war bonnets."

Then there's no proof they are the Native Americans.

"Yeah. That's what the PUZZLES were for. And, what side of HOME are they at? Towards the start of the game, and away from New Home? Why, that would be correct! So... Why are the puzzles placed on the other side of the door? If the monsters were coming in from Snowdin, and believed the humans would come from Snowdin, the puzzles should have been created in Snowdin. Under my theory, it makes sense though-If humans fell from where we did, it would make sense to place the puzzles on THAT side. And also, it doesn't make sense for the entrance to face the Ruins anyway. Who'll be entering from the Ruins anyway if there's no hole there? How will that halt anybody?"

"So if the door already sealed the humans, what's the point of the puzzles? Were they created after the Ruins hole? And still, that doesn't leave a reason to make the entrance face the Ruins. (I said entrance, not puzzles. Look at the architecture of Home and the castle.)"

The monsters believed they would come from the barrier side, so they hid on the other side of the underground, where a hole later opened up or something, so they started constructing the puzzles. Lemme repeat that, the puzzles in the ruins were constructed only after the hole opened up. Also, I don't understand what do you mean by "entrance facing the Ruins". The only made entrance is the door, and the only way you can go through it is from the Ruins into the Snowdin forest.

"Key? What key? The only key in the entire game besides the two to Ashore's castle is the Mystery Key, and that's for Hapstablook/Mettaton."

A key to a door! It's a door, it requires a key. You know what, if you keep asking for answers, then expect answers. I never before thought I would ever have to explain the concept of keys and doors to anyone.

"Except they do. The plaques literally tell the tale of the war of humans and monsters. If we had a war against aliens and lost, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be saying they won't come here."

We won't, since we don't have a shield around our planet.

"Which is why the monster who wrote that wasn't a serious historian, but, as I said, someone rather ignorant in history, and why we shouldn't take the plaques as historically accurate, and go with what the intro said happened during the war instead, such as the battle being long instead of short."

Who says they wrote about history? To them, it could very well be the present. As I said, different plaques could have been written at different times. And this one could have been written after they scanned the entire underground but before the first human trash started flowing in. Also, the intro portrays the legend as the monsters know it. The last bit is what is also known to the humans, apparently. In any case, it is a legend. Would you rather trust a historical book or some ancient knowledge-passing text, or a simple legend? I would take the books and knowledge any day of the week. The legend is definitely not of a divine origin, as all legends and stories have been created by humans in our world (including even the "word of God"), so this conclusion comes from a simple implication. And I see no proof that this legend is of a divine origin either.

"It was less "the humans waited for the monsters to scout the mountain" and more "The giant hole was CLEARLY visible, even from a distance", and as for one of the holes (in my take it's the one in the Ruins, in yours, well.. it's not?), they were literally banished through it. I'm pretty sure you'd be aware of the hole that's being used to put you underground. A giant hole that's not hidden whatsoever doesn't need to be scouted for."

The giant hole is rather small and hidden in a cave somewhere on the mountain. It's no Arizona crater. In any case, they said there are no entrances or exits, and since I believe this, this proves to me that there indeed weren't any. So far, I was able to explain the plaques rationally and didn't have to resort to debunking their "historical accuracy." You're the only one doing that. You're the only one who keeps questioning the canon here, up to the point of sounding ridiculous. Honestly? If something is canon, then you don't debunk it because it doesn't fit your perfect theories, you tweak those theories so that it fits. And the plaques weren't made to be questioned, so we shouldn't assume that they're false. Else we would have nothing to build upon.

"One meter for one mile.. That would mean a centimeter for 526 feet. A millimeter for about 52.5 feet. Now, you can't keep your balance on a platform that's only a millimeter wide, and neither can you jump 52.5 feet. The stairs would be unusable."

Did I say one meter long? No, I did not. I said one meter wide. The stairs can be a mile long, I don't care. As long as it gets people one mile up in the air, I don't care.

"Of course you don't. Those preparations would need to be taken into consideration. What I am saying is that during these preparations, the calendars should still keep on being made, and only halt when it's actually time to move out."

Moving everyone at once is not a good idea either. The monsters would need to move to an area that already had everything functioning, which means the people running everything must first move there. The production must be moved. And no one is going to export calenars across the underground.

My reasoning for everything is simple: The calendar cannot be stuck at the beginning of 201X because of that being the date that everyone moved. Since else, no one would find Chara. And I see no way that Toriel and Asgore would let Asriel go there, because of safety, nor go with him, because, what else is there left to do half a year after their departure, honestly? Talk to the monsters still left there? Isn't it kinda suspicious that this happened the exact day that Chara fell down? I rather think they were all in the ruins all this time, as they were the last to depart. Which of course raises the question, why is the calendar not showing the END of 201X instead? Well, here I argued that this calendar actually comes from the year before 201X, but it just had the first few months of 201X printed on it as well, due TO the mass migration to New Home. This would explain why the calendar is stuck there. It can't go any further.

To be honest, I don't know why Toby chose to make the departure year the same as the year of Chara's arrival, and NOT put those two dates close to each other. It really makes you wonder what the hell was Asriel doing there in the ruins half a year later.

"Well, let's see-Mettaton was the only star.. So, if entertainment was SOOO important back then... Why weren't there any celebrities? Not even Asgore knows what anime is-He asks Frisk what it is, in fact."

Who says there weren't entertainers before? And Asgore knows shit about anime, since anime is a human invention. No one said he doesn't know what cartoons are though (and yes, there is a difference between a cartoon and an anime).

"Um... Mettaton being the only star? Really, entertainment only become popular because of Mettaton. Without him, the underground wouldn't have that "spark", as Mettaton put it. And since Mettaton was created AFTER the Gaster Era..."

Maybe not a spark, but again, prove it. No entertainers whatsoever, ever? Really? Not even a single silly party clown or a mime or something?

"...The same Gaster Follower who specifically said Gaster built the CORE is my evidence that he was the only one. The rest is my speculation of how Asgore could have figured it out-And he wouldn't find documents from dozens of monsters, because Gaster was the only one. Asgore just needed to connect the dots to figure it out."

Did any of the Gaster followers say he was the only one? I don't think so. Again, a single person managing to do all of this seems unlikely, even if you call them a genius. And if the monsters are as brilliant as you're saying, then there DEFINITELY should be more than just one. And your Asgore argument is relying on this unsupported assumption that Gaster indeed was the only one. And also you just kinda assumed that Gaster was forgotten and completely dismissed the fact that nothing is indicating so. It works if you believe these assumptions to be true, but it won't convince me, since you have to prove these assumptions first, or don't, but make it into a REALLY good theory, by connecting many other things that such assumptions would lead to. By which I don't mean finding any possible excuse for any possible hole that such theory might have. I can see you always first assume something to be true because it fits your headcanons and then "fill in" all the holes by constructing the wildest of plot arcs. That's not a good approach. You must always seek the simplest route. If a certain assumption leads to too many weird assumptions, such as the monsters ALL being geniuses and pretty much outlawing drama and poetry because it is a distraction JUST to get thousands of years ahead in technological progress, then yes, perhaps you should seek a simpler explanation. As I said, this is no Eureka, this is just a simple race of monsters, whose main traits are love, hope and compassion. Not necessarily geniality.

''""Unfortunately, his life was cut short." Experiments went wrong. "He fell into his own creation. (Yes, I'm aware I didn't put quotes around the middle one. The middle one wasn't an exact quote.)''

''He just had bad luck. Something happened during one of his experiments, that caused him to fall into his own creation-The CORE."''

So much for his intelligence then, falling into a pool of magma. But in any case, I think the evidence here is strong that what he "fell" into wasn't the CORE.

"Yeah, pretty sure Gaster was one of the monsters who helped make that report."

So you do acknowledge that he wasn't the only one then.

"And why do you think Papyrus' memory was wiped out? My take is that it's because Gaster was erased, and so too was the memories of him, what's yours? Also, technically, Sans and the CORE shouldn't exist. But they do. Sans coming from Gaster is likely the SOLE reason why he remembers Gaster. Or, perhaps it was because Sans had some of the Gaster Blasters with him. (Gaster Blasters.)"

My theory is that everyone got affected in a different way. Some were forgotten, some forgot, and some simply got shattered across time and space. And I don't think fragments of Gaster surviving would make anyone remember him. I mean, if their memories were wiped clean as you're saying, then they didn't just "forget", they simply technically never knew. Else everyone could once again remember Gaster if they just trired hard enough, which seems contrary to what you're saying, that he was forgot due to some timeline mumbo jumbo, which would suggest that he technically never existed in this timeline. Alas, no one ever said he was forgotten by anyone. That's purely your headcanon.

"Yeah, they showed up. From where? They don't seen to have any idea. And of course she didn't imply they came out of thin air-I don't think that materialization was actually witnessed by anybody. Their origin is just a mystery. One day, nothing, the next day, they're here."

From where you ask? There's only three directions they could have come from. The first one leads to pretty much nowhere (honestly, if they came from the Snowdin forest, I think there would be some monsters that would already recognize them) and the last two both lead to the rest of the underground. And I don't think it's weird the shopkeeper didn't say from which one of these paths they emerged. You find it weird that she also didn't state the exact date, week day, day time and velocity of their arrival, as well as the path they took when they started approaching the town? You really find that weird? I find you weird. The shopkeeper is a simple bunny woman. Just because she said they "showed up one day" ain't mean there's something suspicious about it. It would honestly be much more suspicious if she said something like "they showed up out of nowhere". If anything, she said that to compare it with the next sentence, that they asserted themselves. Implying they asserted themselves rather very quickly, which indeed is a bit suspicious now.

They either came from Waterfall, or from the river.

"So yeah. They know you're a human. Toriel, Napstablook, and Sans are the only ones who don't want to kill/capture you."

Bravo. You listed every monster that knows you're a human. You managed to prove nor disprove nothing. Also, as you pointed out, some monsters that recognize you as a human do have their reasons not to kill you, which again is totally useless for this discusison. As I said, many monsters don't know you're a human.

"Just about everybody except for Monster Kid and the monsters at New Home know that you're a human. And hey, like I said, they want to drain your will to fight. Spread their "we're made of love and compassion, and without them, we can't exist" propaganda."

I can confidently say here that you're wrong. Only the monsters that say you're a human at some point recognize you as a human. The rest falls under the "expression through magic" category. I know this is canon, since Papyrus almost not recognizing you as a human at first is canon, as well as Asgore in the genocide route. And since monsters recognizing you as a human but never showing it off is pointless for the story as well as the game, I don't think any of those that we've met that didn't say you're a human actually knew you're a human. It's such a pointless assumption too. And I think it's very clear that monsters are made out of love hope and compassion. After all, it was written in one of their OWN books. Emphasis on "own". It's not like they made that book just for you to read it. There was an entire library of books there. You were reading their own stuff, not stuff they wanted you to think about them. So stop speaking like an alt-left conspiracy idiot. The last thing we need is Undertale conspiracy theories. Honestly, you're saying the monsters are dishonest. Do you also have these issues in real life? Do you want me to label you as such? Stop then if you don't.

"Gaster wouldn't be seen as a nerd-He'd be celebrated like Einstein. Because that's the kind of great discoveries he made."

His biggest accomplishment was the CORE, from what we know. Therefore, he would be at Edison's level at most. With some added benefits of course. But he never was "popular", as in Papyrus-style popular I imagine.

"Yeah, it doesn't make sense, unless she doesn't know about Gaster. And yeah, nobody knew him because he was erased. That's what I'm saying. And if Gaster wasn't one for publicity, why do the Gaster Followers know of him? How come Gaster's only rememberers are the ones that create space-time distortions preventing your phone from working?"

Because he wasn't forgotten. And it's not just these anomalies that remember him. Recall Asgore. In any case, I am stopping this argument. Evidently, you cannot come up with any new arguments, so I win. Not that I would brag about it of course.

"Them all somehow forgetting about Gaster without him being erased is the plot hole that I argue proves he had to have been erased to explain it."

Do I need to repeat myself? Again? You are the one who still believes everyone has memory lapses for some reason. And why? So that you could "fix" your plot holes that you created yourself using your nonsensical arguments. There is no plot hole, the only hole there is is the one in your head preventing you from perceiving the fact that there's no proof that anyone forgot Gaster whatsoever. Just because they don't talk about him don't mean they forgot. And that's another insert you added to prove yourself right, you said that he was "popular" so that it would seem weird to you that none of them talk about him. And you also keep ignoring Asgore, saying that the fact that he remembers Gaster is because he "connected the dots", instead of realizing that this indeed is the ultimate proof that no one forgot Gaster (since Asgore is not special enough by any means, unlike those with high amounts of DT for example), as any other normal person would realize by this point. No, instead you took the fact and bent it so that it fit your own theory. You would make a great alt-right leader, honestly.

As I said, I'm done with this part. If you can't bring up something new, don't even bother.

"Yeah, their items lying there. It only makes sense if they're DEAD. As I explained, if the human got past the Ruins, how did there items get BACK to the Ruins?"

Uh, they dropped it? Duh? And "only?" What do you mean, "only?" Perhaps, that human felt like the ribbon was stupid, and the knife too ineffective. There are so many explanations that don't involve their death.

"And Asgore just said Tories was disgusted with his actions-Not how and why. Toriel elaborates on the how and why in the True Pacifist Ending."

That still don't mean I'm wrong tho.

"...You do know that Frisk was there as a witness, right? If Frisk heard that monsters were planning to attack the Surface World, they might just go genocide. But, let's just say Toriel legitimately decided that the humans who fell would be treated as friends. ...Why can't it be a ploy? Treat them as friends, and then kill one unsuspecting on, OR, wait for one to die naturally, take their SOUL, and then kill everybody?"

Oh geez. My head hurts. I thought you were smarter than this. Welp, back to toddlersplaining once again I guess.

There's no way Frisk could get past the barrier, so even if they heard it, they wouldn't be able to tell the humans. No, honestly, they couldn't. The math doesn't add up.

You also forgot that in many of the endings, Undyne is elected the ruler and actually does declare a war. So what Sans told us wasn't a ploy. I'm kindly asking you, stop with the conspiracy theories, or I will honestly walk away and tell everyone you're insane. This isn't politics, this is just a game, and there is no conspiracy involved. Especially since there's no way we would know for sure anyways.

Lastly, Toriel is a loving mother. You are confusing her with the edgy Fell!Toriel. Toriel has integrity. She would never betray and murder a child. Justice? Maybe. It would seem necessary to them. But integrity has morals. At least according to Sans.

So as you can see, my point stands. Toriel revoked the rule immediately. And she revoked it even if you were an absolutely horrible person, which, frankly, does end up in her exiling again. So her morals indeed always were that killing is wrong, even for the greater good. If Asgore instead suggested to wait until those that fell down aged, died by an accident, or did it willingly, I think she would be okay with that.

"As the stats show, though, they're not useless. They make good weapons. After all, if they were so useless, they wouldn't be picked up by the later humans that moved them to Waterfall."

Perhaps, they couldn't see that they had their uses. Perhaps they couldn't see the stats. Or maybe the items needed to "age" in order to be any good. I mean, a dusty tutu doesn't really provide you with any armor. And neither does a locket. Nor many other things from this bunch, including some of the weapons too (honestly, how is a torn notebook a weapon?). Most of these rather seem like "sentimental weapons", if you know what I mean. That would then make the aging thingy understandable. But as I said, some of them could have had a potental to be hated, for example the ballet gear.

"So... Why do we see the buildings and not the rubble that should be surrounding them? And 1980's buildings would be this sturdy. (Remember, the cell phone puts monsters at the technology level of the late 1980's)"

Why are the buildings that we see not rubble?

Because the buildings that we see are not rubble. What kind of question even is that?

The rest is though. Or perhaps, there's not any rubble left, as it was all cleaned out. Remember, it could very well be a thousand years since this event. I'm not saying it happened recently. And it probably wouldn't considering that yes, a hole would attract kids, but then again, the legend would need some time to spread.

"You're taking every post you can find from him as canon, when they could very well be more jokes. You're not questioning him at all when he's known to joke/troll. Poe's law, remember?"

...?

I said I do the exact opposite of that, dude. You on the other hand don't even give him a chance. And some pathogens latch onto every word that he says. Which, as I explained many times already, is not my case. I told you very clearly that I can recognize a joke from a serious post. Toby's jokes aren't heavy-troll level, poe's law doesn't really apply here. It only applies to the hardest cases of sarcasm. So if YOU think that everything he says is sarcasm, then that's not my problem. You have this issue that you don't know where to draw the line. You think everything Toby says is sarcasm, you think every line in the game said by a monster is just charades and ploys, you would gladly disregard all conventions and common sense just because it's not "impossible" to prove your point... To be sincere, you are very bad at discussions.

"Which is why Scott trolled everyone with FNAF3, and why Toby did his trolls. There's no other reason to be an information troll, after all. To flat-out lie just because."

Making a joke versus deliberately outraging people. There's a difference. Toby never did the latter. Never. Also, it may surprise you, but I know nothing about FNAF. The deepest my knowledge of its lore goes is that there's some golden demon bear, some purple murdery guy, some ballon boy, a heckton of utterly useless animatronics, and some bite of 87 that was revealed in the 4th installment. So you can stop using it as an example now.

"Some of the posts you consider as canon even as it disagrees with the lore, saying the evidence against it is "just a plot hole"."

Nothing I agree with disagrees with the lore. Unless the lore is unclear, up to the point of seeming almost contradictory to itself. Then I call that a plot hole. I never call a discrapancy between any of my theories and the lore a plot hole.

"Either one could work. Just... think of Toby Fox the same way you'd think of Scott Cawthon, and maybe you'll understand why I don't take his posts as canon."

Yeah, you're right, I don't understand, because I know next to nothing about Scott Hawton. Just that he milked his own creation, unlike Toby. So if I can trust him, why can't you? And besides, it's not like the two know each other personally. It seems very unlikely that Toby would try to imitate Scott's humor... whatever kind that guy even preferred. I mean, was Scott obsessed by dogs? If not, then they probably didn't have a lot in common.

"You're the one who said "Yeah, the Chara card isn't canon, so Toby didn't lie about the official merchandise thing." So that's dumb wording for you, not me. I'm ridiculing it, pointing out how the Chara card not being canon proves nothing. The fact still stands-It's official merchandise, and the post said there wouldn't be any, so Toby lied."

I'm sorry he said there won't be any of what again? You mean Chara merchandise? So why didn't you say? I thought you were talking about the canonity of the tarot cards in general. Chara is an important character, and tarot cards are unbiased. They're nor hosile, nor obsessive towards any of the motives or subjects. But regular Chara merchandise is what's not gonna happen.