Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-33883848-20190309185139

"As well as its own thing, which has to be something, and Determination is the only thing that fits that."

Nothing suggests that red soul is an own thing at all '

"First: That means that despite their efforts, they're barely ever theirself. The literal antithesis of the quote!" During the whole game is implied to strugle to be themselg as implied by this quote"DESPITE EVERYTHING its still you",implying that even though ita difficult,they continue to be themself.

"A "fact" that you made up." A fact that the game made up as Frisk need to use the SAME tactics to get the flag that corresponds to themself again,so "continue to be themself despite how hard is to be using all those tactics" "Because there's something we call logic,that why."

Hey,dont still quotes "Yes, because it fills them with Determination. Having them say more every time would be clumsy and redundant, since anyone capable of rational thinking would be able to piece together that Frisk is GAINING more DT, not spontaneously getting DT from nothingness."

BUT THE NARRATOR NEVER NEVER SAYS IT GIVE THEM "MORE"DETERMINATION,IF SAID IT AT LEAST ONCE THAT WOULDNT BE REDUNTANT .So yes,they only get determination from this stuff "All humans nturally have DT, so the only thing to take from this is that Frisk is getting MORE." That's not something natural,that's a feeling that you either have or not.Humans have a lot of it when they dies because they fear to die

. "Except everything we know about the other kids specifically associates them with their trait, even with the idea that they could SAVE in mind. Their trait is their trait, they just happened to have enough DT to be able to SAVE. Frisk on the other hand is associated with nothing but Determination, none of the other traits, just Determination." Maybe kindness when they spare the monsters??Justice as the will to free the monsters??lntegrity that stay themself??(Frisk is associated CONSTANTLY with the "stay true to yourself"by mirrors Sans etc...)Maybe hope as Asgore notes they have hope in their eyes???Maybe bravely to face Undyne???? Frisk is associated with a lot of things not only the dt which was associated with all fallen humans as they had the ability to save.Yeah,Frisk is associated with dt in the save points but thats because saves are related to dt,not to anything else. Regadless what they shows im any other run,we cant jump into conclusions too fast as we arent sure whats a personalitys trait in the game and whats not and dt is a POWER not trait,some have it more than others but THERES NO EVIDENCES THAT IT IT BECOMES A TRAIT DEPENDING THE QUANTITY OF DETERMINATION ANYONE HAVE,especially considering that every fallen human had enough dt to save. Plus ,there's NO SAVES when they are om the surface while the saves are the "manifestation of dt",which means that they no longer have dt on the surface.

"You gave the example, I provided response, amd there is no way for wanting to live to be a "goal in general". Wanting to continue to live IS a goal, same with changing fate."

Yes its a goal but not every single goal.Dt is SPECIALLY the will to live ..change fate...this goal nothing else. . "It's still their goal regardless, everything else just fills them with the determination to achieve it. It's like when your trying to finish a painting, but can't, and you see a child struggling to hit a ball with a bat. When you see the child finally hit the bat and succeed, you feel a passion to achieve your goal of finishing that painting; being filled with Determination. You were already determined to complete that painting, but that moment gave you more that compelled you forward. Short, sweet, and simple."

Thats maybe their goal i dont care but the SUBTANCE dt is the will to keep living specifically,not the will to achieve all goals

Except Chara doesn't appear until the "end, and makes it clear that the determination to do all of that was Frisk' not theirs. Not even taking control until Frisk gives them their SOUL." -Chara says that Frisk dt was JUST something that brought them back to life -Chara is aswell as Frisk determined to kill monsters for power as indicated by the fact that they provides te kill count,says that Frisk shouldn't continue if there still monsters that are left to kill before fighting undyne etc... -Chara can clealy take control of Frisk even without love as they skip Papyrus puzzles etc...at low love,plus they could posses Asriel while they had no love in their lifetime(when you check Chara's stats,it says they have 1 lv) "Also, the term is projecting onto, not into since they're already IN them." I dont what it could be else since Chara make it pretty clear that they arent controlling Frisk by giving them the kill count,accusing them of killing everyone etc... .

"Bravery is a feeling," Bravery isnt a feeling,that's our individual capacity to deal with fear "Justice is a feeling," Justice isnt a feeling again,thats something philosophical based on principles etc... "Kindness is a feeling" Empathy is a feeling,kindness is a result of it and a way of be,so a personality ," Patience is a feeling" Wrong,patience is the the capacity of endure difficult circumstances and a personality trait ", and Integrity and Perseverance are (more abstract) feelings."" "Integrity is the practice of being honest and showing a consistent and uncompromising adherence to strong moral and ethical principles and values.[1]["Wikipedia Its a pratcice of being honest NOT a feeling,which is an emotional reaction as joy fear etc... Also: "Determination - You're someone who's firm in your path, steadfast in your goals, and unwavering in your decisions. You want to do or achieve it, so you do it no matter what."

Thats not a specific behaviour but a feeling again,each trait has to have a specific behaviour when they face a chalenge as indicated by the ball game,perseverance use notes ,patient is parient and wait the greatest opportunity etc... "Chara is in Frisk, Frisk is hearing those memories, those memories are making them more determined. Not giving them the determination to gk back. That's it." There's no reason for those memories to make them determined to come back,they are adressed to CHARA not them.If Toby fox didnt want to imply that Chara is the one whi bring Frisk back to the save point,then he wouldn't include this memory at all when Frisk dies. "Except for the fact that they're the main character, the one the ability to SAVE is under the control of, the one whose SOUL is the coveted item everything around them wants, and the one that's going through all of this and doing all of this." I mean by the fact that Asgore was asking CHARA to stay determined not Frisk,CHAARA.Plus ,Frisks soul SHATTER when they dies,which meabs that they couldnt be the one who use their dt to come back as their "culmination of being"is destroyed.

."Excelt they have no SOUL or DT, freely admit so at the end of Genocide, and could only start doing anything when Frisk reached LV 20." -We dont need a soul to have dt as dt is a FEELING thats not even love or compassion -Chara only says that Frisks dt and soul was something that brough them back to life"You power awakened me from death,my human soul my dt wasnt mine but yours" -Chara can do anything whatever they want ,they refuse so because Frisk is their guide as they themself admits"with your guidance i realized the purpose of my reincarnation power" "Except they're dead, even when using Frisk as a vessel, they're dead." They literally says that they came back to life"Why was i BROUGTH BACK TO LIFE"and they literally dies along Frisk when Frisk dies. "1: Flowey NEVER says anything of the sort." Oh really "But there stil one treat,someone with the power to reset everything,i talking about you [...]see you latter Chara"-Flowey talking to Chara at the end of the pacifists end credits "2: Chara outright says that everything was all because of Frisk DT. Frisk is the most determined being in the Underground, and thus the one who has the ability. That's it!" -We dont know whatever its Frisk or Chara the most determibed being as both shares the same body so Chara could be tbe one who have "most detemination" -Stop to make Chara say what they dont,they only said that Frisk s dt was something that brought them back to life ""They're persisting, and yet they're not alive, so the "will to live" and averting death is not as all encompassing as you think." They ARE ALIVE ,they are just physically dead,otherwise Alphys wouldbt says "that the will to KEEP LIVING that allows them to persist after death". They lost a bit of their dt while fighting Asgore,thus they werent the most determined beings,thus they didbt return to their save point but just persisted out of their body

"It's literally stated in the game." But you always described dt as something else then the will to keep living

"It's the will to live, change fate, and firmness of purpose; whose strength allows the SOUL to persist both outside the human body and after death. That's it."

Wtf,thats wasnt related with that .I meant that Alphys wonders what world happens if she inject a mindless flower with dt but insted of saying "what would happen if a souless beibg gains the will to live AND the resolve to change fate"she insted said "what would happen if a souless being gains the will to live"as if dt was only the will to live

"Not injecting something that doesn't belong in a sentence into a semtemce automatically means that I'm right!" - MegalomaevaAnima"

"Because Alphys explained dt with two sentences necessarily means that dt has two or even more differents functions"-Mysterious Malice Also its "Magomaeva" .' ." "No, that's the strength of DT that allows the SOUL to persist outside the human body and after death. Something explicitly stated in the game and listed as a capabiltiy of DT by Alphys." Wtf??Flowey exploctly says that ITS dt that brought him back to the save point. Also your soul SHATTER when you dies and so it repersist if you come back to your save point, ." "Persiting is due to the strength of DT, not an actual capability of DT itself." I have no idea from which planet you are.

"Exactly as it says." Te will to keep living allows your soul to refuse and persist. "Oh so the person constantly preaching about Flowey's "So long as I'm determined to live" line suddenly doesn't believe that?"

I do but that means that dt isnt the resolve to change fate in general just death since its NOT the willl to change fate(besides death) that allows him to "persist"after death(so return to the save point)but the will to keep living That wouldn't also make sense for dt to make the souls persist if dt was anything else then the will to keep living as any other stuff arent related at all with death and the will to overcome it. "They're determined to save their friends, and the world, from Asriel's reign of destruction." AND SO THEIR SOUL IS DETERMINED TO LIVE

"You're just repeating what I said. What was the point of this?"
 * https://www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/amp/anglais/fatehttps://www.dictionary.com/browse/fate"

Fate is a FINALITY something thats inevitable as death that comes at the end of the life ."Yes, and it's a fate when it's foretold to happen in an exact way."

Oh really because you say so??Nothing says that fate is something thats supposed to happen in a specific way,thats a definiton you pulled from nowhere.Fate is something that HAS to happen and it doenst matter how according to all definitions i ve read

"Irrelevant, unimportant, and not at all what a SCIENTIST would do."

Many characters word death in a different way,somepeople call as "a freedom from the mortal realm"others as "leaving the mortal coil"etc...Plus Alphys already mentioned death,so she didnt want to be redundant

"Oh so that legend/prophecy of an angel whose seen the human world descending and making the Underground go empty (i.e exactly what happens/would happen in both Pacifist and Genocide) is just nothing?" Yeah its a fate but but nothing says thats something ireversible,just that it WILL happen "The monsters being trapped forever as part of the machinations of the humans of so long ago AREN'T fate?" No because nothing assume that they will be trapped forever L "Resolve is resolve, your firmness of purpose, what you're resolved to do is not your resolve!" The resolve to persist after death and JUST this specific resolve "No duh, fate isn't the will to fight! Fate is what's predetermined to happen to you, others, or your surroundings!" You said so. "Determination is the resolve behind your actions, the drive that pushes you to do things, the motivation behind your goals!" It all make sound like you are trying to force your interpretaion of red soul being determination just because it sounds cool not because you have narrative reasons behind besides VERY vague evidences,nothing concrete.Naratively theres no reason for Frisk's trait to be "determination"even though they show it as any single character as Undyne,Flowey etc...do. 'Firmness of purpose = willingness to live/fight/etc." Exept THE SUBSTANCE=firmess to live after death nothing more.

If you didnt notice the entry says  "to KEEP living",and"AFTER DEATH"so....this feeling only happens when youre dying (and perhaps if youre suicidal since it says to "the will to KEEP living") Even Flowey confirms it as he says he was "determined to live"only when he was dying,even the fact that the Asgores message only comes when Chara/Frisk dies and he was telling Chara to "stay determined" when Chara was dying. So,How would it make sence for them to feel the resolve to change any fate besides whats coming to them aka death when they are dying ?

"No you're not." So now you who add TON of meanings im dt that arent in the game,making assumptions as the one saging that souless entities cant have own dt while nothing implies so,changing the meanings of all 6 traits to "dt"etc...Is totally making sence?

"She was looking for what allowed human SOULS to persist, she found it, amd named it." If what she found was "firmess of purpose in general"i doubt that she would ever had tp name it instead she would say"i found dt". "How?" Because firmess of(any) purpose already has a name.

"1: Again, stop simplifying DT into one thing." Iam not symplfying it,youre the one who OVER COMPLICATE IT adding meanings that arent even used im defimitiom of dt.If dt substancewas "firmess to change any purpose"then she would outloud say "dt is the firmess to change any purpose".So far dt was ONLY associated with the will to deturn death as by Asgore's message"stay determined"while Chara was dying, "2: DT has all the capabilities that's been said before (persist, change fate, live) it makes no sense for something that is the physical form of DT to just be one aspect, when it would also be ALL OF THE OTHER ASPECTS." THAT IS NOT A PHYSICAL FORM OF FIRMESS OF ANY PURPOSE AS OTHERWISE ALPHYS WOULD SAY SO. Just stop to applies real world definition in a video games definition "Again, both are forms of firmness of purpose, and even then resolve is used in the second definition. So firmness of purpose is the underlying attribute of it all.' She never even mention the firmess of purpose,that's specifically the resolve to change fate...the will to keep living" The mere use of the word resolve literally says that firmness of purpose is a major aspect of DT - because that's what it means. Again, both the will to live and resolve to change fate are different forms of firmness of purpose." "Resolve"in question is the "resolve to CHANGE fate/death not firmess of any purpose.

"When have I ever said that? Flowey only has the DT he was injected with, and everything he "feels" is because of that DT - which is then, essentially, his. Chara is possesssing Frisk, they don't have their own SOUL or DT, so they leech off of Frisk SOUL and DT. That's it."

Oh really and what are your evidences to endorse it???

Flowey also says that he was only determined because he feared to die not because he felt something in him that brought him back to life,so he had dt because of his own fear of death

"Chara is there from the start, and no one is calling them, them being "the demon who comes when you call it's name" is referencing the character naming sequence! That's the only time their name is "called"" -Asgore is literally calling their name -You were just NAMING Chara and not "calling their name"

"CAPACITY to hurt. As in how much you're able TO hurt. Destroying the world is clearly a capability of LV 20, and while you CAN'T do that in Pacifist, Asriel does the same thing in his attempts to kill Frisk in his fight. And seeing as how you need to kill nearly every monster to get to LV 20, and Asriel absorbs the SOULS of ALL monsters, the correlation should be obvious." Again NOTHING implies that you NEED love to destroy the world as love is only the capacity to hurt others.Chara need it because despite what one would assume they arent pure evil born with the highest will to hurt others ,they have to gain it by increasing their love(and they have only 1 LV when you check their stats).They arent so emotionally strong to destroy any otehr world in any other run and plus they WOULDNT destroy it in any other run because as they says the world s destruction is the consequence of Frisks genocide ."They share the body, so why not the power they gain from killing" The emotional power yes

"Because they don't want to die, be reduced to nothing, and forgotten." So yes because they fear of the unknown.Which honestly doenst matter at all here because the fact is:Flowey says that he was determined because of his fear of unknown/death .' ."Being suicidal AT ALL invalidates the notion that Determination is nothing but the will to keep living and defying death. You literally just disproved yourself." Thats still part of it according to you right??So the pnly thing it contradict is that the other people 's will to keep living doesn't influence at all your own one,thats something completely separated from your own psychology. "The only DT he has is what he was injected with, that same DT is what allows him to live and SAVE, and what spurs him to want to continue living. That's it."

Oh and any evidence to back it??yeah none.

"And they're a determined person, therefore their trait is Determination." In genocide and is some neutral runs they are cruel and so theit trait must be cruelty.And actually every fallen human was determined

"Which is something, the question is what that something IS, amd thr only candidate is Determination." That's only dt whem you change all the meanings of the traits to make them fit with dt in a way or another while the game pretty clearly says that Frisk ONLY used those 6 TRAITS to get the red flag and NOTHING else and so the red trait isnt an own trait but a personality with all the six traits and nothing else. "The mystery is what it is. Again, the only candidate is Determination because it matches with everything.'

."First: You need each trait in some capacity to get the seventh, which Frisk clearly has, and given the two flags, the six make up the seventh while the seventy clearly contributes to the others in turn." Yes because red trait is ONLY the 6 traits,with nothing personal as dt. "Second: No talking like you know Toby!" Same goes to you. "Third: You need to be brave to face danger and pursue your goals;" Not neserally you can be determined to achieve goals even though there's no damger even though youre not brave .For example:iam determined to get a game but that doenst mean that theres any danger or that i have to be brave to get money to buy it. " be just to determine what you feel is the right or wrong thing to do in your pursuit of said goals; " That doenst matter at all ,real life dt is the firmess of any purpose,theres no need of any moral judgments. "be kind and concerned over other people and things obstructing or associated with your own goals, " You dont need any kidness to be resolved to achieve your goal.You just have yo have the will to achieve your goal,thats all "be patient and willing to wait in order to do what you desire, " Not everyone who are determined to get their goal are patient,thats often the reverse actually. "have a standard to stick to in your endeavor" How the fuck integrity is related to the firmess of purpose? ,"and be willing to repeat and reattempt over and over again in order to move forward in your pursuit of your goal." Thats ONLY thing that fits the firmess of purpose while perseverance is already an own trait.And just because you are firm in purpose doesnt mean youare perseverant to achieve it,you claimed it yourself. "In turn, you need to stick to your choices and desires - be firm in your purpose - in order to be brave, decide right from wrong, be kind, be patient, stick to your morals, and repeat continuously. You need to be yourself"

Wow wow wow determination is a lot of things to you,this is what i meant by "you complicating everything"because in fact dt need NONE Of this stuff because well thats a feeling with no associated behaviour.The more easy is the reasoning the more it has chance to be true,mine is easier because it doenst add ton of assumptions about dt and all. And also we could use every single other trait with your reasoning for example love as you need to be perseverant to show your love and being concerned about people,you need justice because your love push you to want justice for loved ones etc....So thats VEEERY vague and doesnt prove at all that red means firmess of purpose

And of course Toby wouldn't need to include all of this limbo with all 6 traits to say that red soul is dt.Because VEEERY few would make the same reasoning as you. He would just put "determinatiom"in red but did he???Nope while it would be REAALY easy and he had no reason to hide it.which alone implies that he meant something else regading this trait.

Plus nothing implies dt is a trait at all so the theory sayimg that dt ia red trait is ONLY based on assumptions as "determination is likely a personaloty trait ,determination is likely a trait that only the ones who m show it more than others traits have and so Frisks soul is dt because they ""often""show it.