Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20181123023529/@comment-32182236-20181123133733

..There exists a few problems with this.

First off, Deltarune cannot be used as evidence for the events that happened in Undertale. If Deltarune was the same world as Undertale, it would both have to be a sequel (Gerson is dead) and a prequel (Undyne never met Alphys). Beyond that, there are very clear contradictions! (Alphys likes Mew Mew 2? The atrocity! 0 stars!) The best Deltarune can be is an alternate timeline, but even that starts to fail when we consider the method of SAVing and the nature of SAVE points in Deltarune, and compare them to Undertale.

Now to the theory itself.

--Chapter 1:Fading Away--

"In fact, the only time you ever actually see Asriel turn back into a flower... is when you reset everything by restarting the game."

This is false. If you SAVE in the Epilouge, where Asriel is clearly still alive, and THEN exit at "The End", Asriel STILL fades into Flowey. So we can't fully call the fading a result of a RESET to before it all started, because this happens before the reset would have concievably occured:In fact, if you Continue then, Asriel is gone:He's only there the first time around (in the current True Reset)

"What’s going on? Is Asriel not going to fade after all?"

Oh, he is. We just proved he did.

"And while the monster soul Asriel used to possess was overflowing with Compassion, the soul he had now was damaged, and unable to feel Compassion at all."

He had none at all. This was explicitly stated. The flower, which had no SOUL, was injected with determination, and that brought the flower to life. The only reason why Flowey is Asriel is because of Asriel's essence:His dust that scattered across the garden.

"But then Frisk felt a seventh soul deep within Asriel, and reached out to it, calling a name.. and the moment Frisk did, Asriel became confused, feeling an alien emotion fore the first time in ages."

"You reached into ASRIEL'S SOUL and called out to your friends"-Narrator (Chara)

"Deep within Asriel's SOUL, something's resonating!"

These quotes are spoken when you try to save your six friends. So why is it "his" SOUL? Because..

"Frisk, when Chara and I combined our SOULs together"-Asriel

SOUL absoprtion involves the SOULs combining into one. With this knowledge, let us revisit the Asriel fight.

"Something else began resonating within the SOUL, stronger and stronger. It seems that there's one last person to be SAVED."

One. ONE. And we end up saving Asriel. Therefore, we can't be SAVING Chara at this point. As for why memories of Chara can exist? Chara's the narrator, right? And since we called out "their" name, it's almost certainly Asriel himself we called.

"CHARA was the name Frisk called out, striking at the very core of Asriel’s being where not even he could see, reaching out to the human soul that still resided there ever seen the doomed trip to the village. The human soul that did not vanish with her death, or even Asriel’s, but remained with him to this day."

Up until Flowey came to be, after Asriel died, he ceased to exist. Or went to whatever afterlife exists, either way, the point still stands.

"Asriel couldn’t feel compassion.. because Chara couldn’t feel compassion, and he still carried her damaged human soul within him after all this time."

It's not that they couldn't, it's that they DIDN'T. They hated humanity. I'm not sure how that leads to the SOUL losing one of its fundamental properties. By the way, maybe Chara wanted Asriel to reach the same conclusion when the humans attacked, so that he'd agree to THAT part of the plan too! Asgore knew that if monsters were free, there'd just be another war. (See:Gerson Boom, Genocide Route, Talk->Fate)

"Asriel Dreemur has two souls. His own monster soul he’ll regain over time, and the human soul of his best friend that he shields within him still. And although he decided to stay in the Underground after the others left for the surface, Asriel, OUR Asriel, will certainly be in the next game."

So where's his ultimate power?

..Maybe I was underestimating by saying "a few" problems.

--Chapter 2--

"Flowey answers this question in the No Mercy route after Chara kills Toriel, by referring to her and her “stolen soul”. Frisk’s soul, the one the player is actually able to control."

This entire line was completely misguided by Flowey. Remember, through and through, Flowey thought that you were Chara, when you were Frisk instead. Flowey know that Chara's SOUL was no more, their old body dead, therefore, he "knew" Chara's new SOUL must have been stolen. Their presence as the narrator might have a little something to do with that assertion.

"We see this at the end of Deltarune Chapter 1, where Chara’s, who has one-stripe on her shirt, tears out Frisk’s soul and throws it in a cage, where the player is still able to move it around during the cutscene. We might control that heart.. but Chara now controls the body."

Kris isn't Frisk. ..Isn't it strange how Kris is the only human? They're your vessel, player. You took control of that vessel, and at the end, Kris is taking control back. Look around town before you go to bed next time. Talk to people. They'll reveal how Kris was like before you took control.

"Which Asriel died, his dust scattered on many flowers, dust that contained both his essence and Chara’s determination. This is why you find patches of golden flowers growing in inhospitable places in Undertale."

We only find them in three places:The spot where we first fall, the spot where we fall again into the Dump, and Asgore's garden. First, none of these appear to be inhospitable. Second, DT still wouldn't explain patches skipping from New Home all the way to Waterfall without showing up anywhere in Hotland.

"When Frisk fell into these flowers, he was not only exposed to Asriel’s dust, he was also infected by the lingering presence of Corrupted Chara. And Frisk’s actions during the game determine how this effects him."

"Thank you. Your power awakened me from death."-Chara

That's the moment where it happened. This time, the determination came from us, not an injection, but the concept is still the same. If a monster's essence is their dust, their body, then the same would likely apply for a human's essence. And where was Chara's body? Right where we land at the start.

"In fact, depending on how you, the player, act, Chara’s outlook on life becomes brighter, or darker. A half-full glass becomes “half-empty” as Chara the Narrator’s pessimism grows. Monster Kid becomes “In My Way”, and “Looks like Free EXP”, and the narrator shifts more and more from a positive 3rd person tale of what Frisk is doing, into a negative 1st person narrative that makes it sound like Chara is in control instead of YOU."

Yet, you're still in control all the way until LV19. No, Chara is just getting more serious with what they're doing, partner. So why don't we finish the job? =)

"When Chara’s unauthorized attack hits Sans, making him bleed very un-skeleton-like red blood, Sans isn’t actually finished. He stands up, limps offscreen, says he’s heading to Grillby’s, then talks to a Papyrus we thought was dead, as if he’s just opened a portal to another dimension, and stepped through, leaving us in this doomed one."

No, he's fading on into the after life, hallucinating. You know about near-death experiences? He's experiencing one of those right then.

"And then, and only then, do we hear the familiar death notification sound, gain Execution Points, and reach Level of Violence 20."

Sans has finally died.

"You only get Execution Points when you kill something in Undertale. Yet Sans doesn’t die at the end of this fight."

Yes, he does. His HP was at 0. He's dead. But Chara is indeed the one who makes the final blow. After all, the kill count doesn't go up from this kill. Because it only counts the number of kills FRISK made.

"From here on in the story, Player Choice is gone, and Chara is the one actually playing the game."

Chara starts making their creepy face during Flowey's speech:LV19. Only then can we explicitly imply it was them, and not just Frisk acting in a cutscene. After all, if Chara was really in control sooner, they would have excerised it more often, to make aborting the Genocide Route impossible. Yet, they too were bound by the HUD in the Sans fight. We, Frisk, had to figure out HOW to kill Sans, but CHARA dealt the finishing blow. Then, at LOVE 20, they gained full control over Frisk's body. They regained physical form.

--Chapter 3--

"During the No Mercy timeline Alyph’s friends inform Chara-possessed Frisk that Alyphs is current evacuating the remaining monsters into the Core, and plans to send them somewhere where Chara can never find them. Considering that Chara destroys her entire universe when she wins, the monsters would have had to flee to another dimension in the multiverse."

That place is implied to be the True Lab, given the dialouge from the Alphys Ending. And yes, that would imply that they die when Chara kills everyone, despite Mettaton's words, but you have to remember that Mettaton had no way of knowing Chara was going to destroy the entire world, and it IS true that we'll never be able to access the True Lab to find them.

"And yet, whenever Sans tries to call Frisk at the end of the game, Frisk is always gone, and Sans has to leave a message."

Maybe they're stuck in the Barrier, as the popular theory goes?

--Chapter 4--

"Why was Undyne able to become so strong, and repeatedly touch Monster Kid without immediately fusing with him, like the Fallen would?"

Because Undyne didn't have AS MUCH determination as the Amalgamtes did. And there's evidence supporting this. First off, the Amalgamtes truly ARE unkillable, unlike Undyne. Second, if you beat the Undying fight, she refuses to give up. However, she ends up overdoing it, and starts to melt:Just like the Fallen. Some determination is okay, every monster naturally has SOME anyways, else they couldn't live. It's just they can't have too much. And we get to see Undyne shift from a healthy amount at the start of her fight, defending Monster Kid, to an unhealthy amount as she starts melting at the very end, doing everything she can to stay determined.

--Chapter 5--

"Young Shyren was one of the Fallen, old age did not apply to her. And buff Aaron was literally as healthy as a horse.. but that didn’t stop him from falling along with the others."

Shyren died of illness, Aaron of old age. There's the solution.

Even still, where did you get the idea that this specific Shyren was young? Why can't it be an older member of the species? Like was the case for Snowdrake's Mother?

"The Fallen Down monsters were much weaker than Undyne, and seemingly already dead when they were found, comatose and unmoving. It was as if someone had already injected them with Determination, making their bodies persist after something essential had been taken from them..."

The Fallen Down state is an occurance that precedes death. Now, in most cases, a human does indeed fall comatose before they die. That's when near-death experiences kick in. Why can't the same be the case for monsters? They're not dead, they're dying. The only injection was Alphys' one that then allowed them to begin to persist. At first it wasn't working, so Alphys put in more and more, starting to become desperate about it. She ended up overdoing it. Thus came the Amalgamates.

"But no humans had fallen into the Ruins in several years. And yet here we have The Queen of All Monsters personally making daily patrols for anyone who had Fallen Down."

What's wrong with that? She cares about humans so much, and if a human DOES fall, she only has a limited amount of time to take the human in before bad things start to happen to the human. Try switching over to the human perspective for a bit:Say a human falls, into the underground, with nothing but golden flowers around, and a narrow passageway. No food, no water. The first serious stage of dehydration begins around 24 hours after one stops drinking water. A day. Could it simply be that Toriel didn't want any of the humans to go through that state? That she wanted a healthy human? One that isn't in danger of death?

You do raise a fair point with the Vegetoids, but all that does is raise the question on how they got back to the True Lab.

...Okay, I think I know why you said Toriel was doing just that now.

"This is important, because Muffet the Spider Queen mentioned that the creature who paid her to retrieve Frisk’s human soul was able to shapeshift in the shadows. They also offered Muffet a LOT of money, enough to save the spiders trapped in the Ruins, which doesn’t exactly sound like our little flowery friend."

That's because it's not. It's Mettaton. He even says it himself-He paid everyone to come attack you! All for the show!

"And it seems, for whatever reason, from both paying Muffet to collect his soul, and hacking the elevator in The True Lab, that Doctor Gaster has a personal score to settle, with Frisk."

The latter was Flowey.