Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-27136653-20190216185029

Toby Fox also stated that there WILL be another game set in Undertale's world:It was the final stretch goal of his kickstarter.

Maybe we misinterpreted what he meant by "Undertale's world" (as in, the general canon UT multiverse, as opposed to this timeline & this reality). Then again, he set himself this massive goal, that he himself said would take like 7 years to complete. So either he massively disappointed the kickstarter backers, or he delivered. I like to believe that he delivered. And what do we know, maybe he did begin to work on it only after releasing Undertale? Maybe that 2012 sample thingy was just the beginning of him designing the story and music (he was composing songs long before he began working on Undertale, so this date is probably not related to the actual coding he did for Deltarune). He said after all that he first got the inspiration from a bunch of media, then transferred some of it over to Undertale, and then finally composed the thing he wanted to make in the first place from the leftovers.

''We never see said tiles in natural gameplay.. Unless we walk out of bounds ourselves.''

There was a legit bug with Undyne. That's how he fixed it.

I suppose that means you argue that Toby ISN'T skillful?

Nah, just lazy. And also definitely not focused on what we're focused over here.

''That's exactly what we're trying to do. That's what the truth is. I'm looking for canon, not a bunch of headcanons. Theories rely on truth, not a fantasy.''

The truth is the one that factors Toby into the equation. That he wasn't going as deep as we are with the plot of the game. But again, if you wanna give this game's story a more solid foundation, go for it. It's not my right to tell you what you can and can't do. All I'm saying, is that your approach is just one of many. Because none of these "extended explanations" are the truth. They extend the truth.

The former is what you do if you're actually trying to solve the work in question.

Doesn't exactly look to me like you're doing that. You're doing exactly what I'm doing. You're just being more rigid about it. My approach is actually still partially rooted in assumptions about Toby. It's how I'm preventing myself from steering too far away from what could be the potential canon. An example of a (good!) story that steered too far is once again Golden Quiche. It took everything, and gave it a "canon world" explanation. Like, Frisk actually physically existing in that menu screen. In comparison, I drew a boundary. The same that you used: if it seems silly and is not referenced, it should probably be disregarded. So I have disregarded the menu. And then also added one more boundary, a such that allowed me to keep my sanity: the world is fluid. By this, I mean that all instances where the world appears "locked" into some small constrained system, such as battles, I completely disregarded.

''By "your own logic", you did mean whatever kind of logic works, right? Like looking for possible references and building upon them, expanding the world as much as we can?''

If you can explain it, it's good. And using Toby as an argument counts as bonus points in this instance, because you're trying to nail the "feeling."

One is testable, the other isn't.

Neither is testable, because we can't just run the game's code to see the scenarios it did not cover.

remember how I logically showed that if DT is the seventh trait, the six other traits HAVE to be physical

Yes, that is logical. I mean, even kinda obvious. But that wasn't my point back then. I was talking about how DT is not the 7th trait. But if I had believed it were, I would have believed this too.

On an unrelated note, do you ever struggle with third conditional sentences?

''2-Frisk must demonstrate this trait throughout ALL the routes. (Else they'd have a different SOUL trait in the route in question.)''

I actually didn't address that yet, so here I go:

One way to explain it is through the absence of soul modes, which shows that they're nothing but "themselves" - stripped of all the colorful fancy. But then that would imply that the other children were constantly under the influence of their respective modes. Still, it would apply only in battles, so they at least would be able to travel.

The other way is to realize that we're influencing them. In other words, they're willing to do anything they're physically allowed and capable of doing, if you assume the "death of the player." So they're capable of displaying all 6 traits. But then, that would mean the other children were only capable of expressing one and only one trait. I guess this is where the trait mixing head canon comes into play.

And personally, I steer towards the battle style head canon: anything goes for them, be it calculation, bravery, elegance, persistence, defense, or accuracy. In other words, they're very open to experience and don't really display anything notable in this regard (they possess these six in more or less the same quantities - they display no extremes), so their personality may seem kinda bland. Maybe they don't even have any hobbies, if we assume the furthest extreme. Just... a total lack of anything sharp and distinguishable. That's how I like to think about them and red souls in general.

''You see? I present logical arguments, and make a testable claim. You just guess stuff about Toby instead. That would be akin to me trying to figure out how the universe works by trying to find out how a god would have made it.''

Well, we KNOW that Toby made this world in this instance, unlike with our reality and God, so...?

Okay, if I understand correctly, what I need to do is create a unified rule system, explaining all four of Mad Dummy's encounter dialogue, plus Glad Dummy?

How do monster bodies work, how do ghost bodies, ghost-possessed vessels and fused ghost vessels work, and how all of that does or does not explain MD's cousin, as well as all other monsters, as well as humans. Also don't forget about human food, monster food, Chara saying you're hurt during Mettaton's show, astronaut food and the reapplied bandage healing you, etc. It's a mess.

Get this as a bonus: https://minmago.tumblr.com/post/181689215359/why-do-monsters-turns-into-dust

They're a special kind of monster.

Minmago: They're not a monster because they don't have the one important thing that monsters do, physical bodies. They're rather body-less souls, that work the same way as the lost souls.

- This is all that I can answer to. That is what I got stuck on arguing with them about.