Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-31536324-20190114222235

"See below.

>Integrity is outright stated by the flag to be about "sticking to your original style", i.e being true to yourself, and honesty.

It implies you have an original style to begin with. By which we mean a certain degree of stubbornness, not conforming to the society's standards, some sort of a personal honor code, etc. Red doesn't need to have this, it can be anything, it can apply to any kind of personality (except for the 6 pre-defined ones obviously), no matter the person's talents or interests."

Yet the second red flag clearly highlights this same aspect as a major part of the Red Trait.

">Everyone has all of these things, what makes DT such a special exception regarding this?

My original argument was that DT cannot be a trait, if everyone has already got the substance itself. Notice, I am working with three different concepts here: the soul trait (magical), the physical substance (magical), and the personality trait (electrochemical). My argument said that it's nonsensical for humans to have the soul trait, if they have already got the physical substance. In other words, it is nonsensical for them to have two "identical" magical components within their souls."

Well now that you've explained it better, I can better argue with it.

First Point: The SOUL is able to become a physical object once outside the human body. It can be touched, thrown, and even locked away in something physical once it does so. (As shown both by the basic fact that Frisk can absorb Asgore's SOUL, and Monsters can absorb human SOULS, and the final scene of the first chapter of Deltarune.) Meaning that everything that makes it up, and is inside it, becomes physical as well. The 6 Human SOULs were clearly experimented on AFTER the kids had died, meaning that they would be physical, and everything in and about them extractable. Speaking of which.

Second Point: "Entry Number 5: I've done it. Using the blueprints. I've extracted it from the human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination."

Nowhere in this entry is what was extracted stated to be a substance, just that it was able to be extracted. Any kind of injection was stated in entry 12, which is after the extraction, and implying that what was extracted BECAME an injectable substance. The SOULs would have had to have been physical for the extraction to work, and since DT, Bravery, Justice, Kindness, Patience, Integrity, Perseverance, and literally everything else that makes up a SOUL would have been made physical by default in that scenario, then there is literally no argument to be made about them not being extractable substances.

And if you're going to ask, "Well why isn't there a Bravery Extractor, a Justice Extractor, or something that implies this to be the case?" Or something along that line. The simple answer is that they didn't care, that they didn't care about anything but what allowed Human SOULs to persist, or about the other traits since they would ultimately serve no purpose to their goals. If they know what they want to extract, have a means to do so, and actually manage to do so. Then they would they want or bother to do so with anything else?

Third Point: This pretty much explains, and completes, my explanation on how I think SOUL Traits are determined: how much of each (magical) trait you have - and by extension the SOULs color - is determined by your psychological trait; how you act and deal with problems and situations. The substances are just the magical power of the trait made extractable when the SOUL is physical.

If your trait is DT, then you have a fair or equal balance of each trait. How can you achieve your goal or be firm in your purpose if your not brave enough to do it, willing to care enough about it, thinking it's right, willing to wait or take your time, able to stick to your ways, or willing to repeat and do things again and again?

"Now, you have argued that everyone has got kindness, right? Well, if you say that everyone has got the SUBSTANCE of kindness in them, then according to my logic, it is nonsensical for the soul trait of kindness to exist."

Exactly.

"But there's the issue. It hasn't been confirmed whether the other traits (such as kindness) also exist as their own physical substances."

I refer you to my above points.

"Only DT has been confirmed to be physical. And on top of that, DT hasn't been confirmed to be a soul trait, so its physicality cannot be used as an argument for the physicality of the othe 6 traits."

Once again, I refer you to my above points.

"What's most likely the case is that DT is not a soul trait and is physical, while the 6 traits are soul traits, but aren't physical.

This is basically what my theory states, and I hope you understand that now."

I definitely understand it more, but as my points above state, if one thing in the SOUL becomes physical and extractable when the SOUL becomes physical, then all things in the SOUL become physical and extractable. It makes no sense for one thing to undergo this change, and nothing else, when the SOUL itself - the one encapsulating these things - is what turned physical in the first place.

Do you get what I mean?

"(Also, in case you have missed it, when I call a trait "physical", I mean it's quantifiable and extractable. Only DT has been proven to have this property.)"

I get that, thank you.

">Also, "additional magical components"? Now who's making up new rules just to fit their theory? Oh wait, that was still only you.

Anything that's in the soul: magical soul component. It's just a label."

So the other 6 Traits also apply then, and again, match up with my above three points.

">likely enough from each to equal 1 HS (Human SOUL) worth

Yeah, you can't really know that. Maybe the amount extracted didn't equate to even 1% of a human soul, what do you know."

It's definitely more than any Monster SOUL, enough to enable Flowey to acquire the ability to SAVE in the first place, and less than Frisk SOULs levels of DT. I just go with the numbers I did because, well, it's simpler.

"The exact amount is simply unknown. But even if it was one full human soul, we don't know if Alphys had the means to somehow utilize it for the barrier. We know that either it was one full human soul or more, but she didn't have the means to utilize that, or she did, but it wasn't one full human soul."

She extracted the DT to make Monster SOULS last longer and make a vessel to absorb them. What exactly are you trying to say here?

">Given that Frisk had more DT than base Flowey, who had at least one HS worth of DT, that means they had at least two HS worth of DT and jumped to at least 9 HS worth of DT to beat Asriel out by one.

Yes, that is indeed a nonsense. Remember, some of that DT also went to the amalgamates. So that already makes his powers but a fraction of a human soul, and we're still assuming that Alphys extracted such an unreasonably high amount of DT in the first place. So realistically speaking, Flowey should have even less than that."

Okay then, how about this model?

Let's say that Monsters have .1 DT, and Humans have 1 DT. If Flowey doesn't have 1 DT like humans, then he has to automatically have more than monsters due in part to his physicality as a surface plant (lets say this is .3, and he was injected with .2). This would make him have .5 DT, more than a monster, and still less than a human, but still able to attain SAVE.

Flowey then absorbs the 6 Human SOULs, gaining 6 DT altogether, and bumping him up to 6.5 DT. More than enough to outs Frisk and regain SAVE.

Then however comes when he absorbs both the 6 Human SOULs and NAMSs, gaining 7 DT, and bumping him up to 7.5. Frisk however, as canonically stated by Asriel, still has control over the timeline despite this. Meaning that Frisk DT, in that instance, would have had to have jumped to 8 in order to beat out Asriel by that last .5.

No matter what way you look at it, Frisk DT would've had to have increased past Asriel's in order for the situation to play out as it did. Asriel is gunning for both Frisk straight up death and the loss of SAVE on their part, he clearly learned from the Omega Flowey fight - where he screwed himself over by toying with Frisk.

">Also, you're still on that DT = SP thing, despite THA and I disproving it multiple times with nothing but in game evidence and common sentence structure? Wow.

You haven't disproven anything, you just keep talking that you did over and over again, when in reality I have very much addressed the flaws in your reasoning multiple times."

No you have not.

"What you regard as "common sentence structure" is still ambiguous and I have highlighted that it can be interpreted both ways. And I chose the other one, because it simplifies other parts of the game."

While also ignoring multiple endings, making a glaring plot hole, and creating rules that don't have any basis in canon.

"Please, prove me wrong. Reopen the argument if you wish. Also, read the next few paragraphs below before responding to this one or them. I explain my reasoning throughout them.

>the "correlation" you "had" (Strength and Power being synonyms) had no basis to stand on.

I mean, they are listed as synonyms on thesaurus.com, and my argument was about the fact that DT is the only confirmed substance found inside human souls (aside from the traits, which I don't think are the culprit here), making "soul power" the measure of the hypothetical power output of this DT. In other words, we need not assume that DT and SP are two different phenomena. We can merge them without breaking anything."

I'm sorry, but I have to point out that it DOES break the pacifist ending, and almost all of the neutral endings.

"And the fact I have no proof for this "trick" is not important to me."

If you want it to be taken as a credible view point, then yes you need proof and evidence.

"The trick itself is a proof of the simplicity of the entire system. You on the other hand are going around the long way. Hey, if you have anything against this theory, write to nochocolate about it, they were the first to make this claim.

>The True Lab Entries clearly differentiate the two into two different subjects

My argument is that the monsters haven't discovered or realized this fact yet. It works, that's all I've gotta say about it, and nothing contradicts it, because everything that seems to do can be explained differently."

Pacifist Ending - Cannot happen because DT cannot increase.

Flowey's mere existence - Cannot happen because DT cannot decrease.

Pretty much all Neutral Endings - Cannot happen because SP should not increase, no matter what, and absorbing a SOUL would do exactly that.

"Now, don't get me wrong, if it was explicitly stated somewhere that I'm basically wrong, I would drop it. But the "counter arguments" actually present in the game aren't this explicit about it, and they truly can be reexplained differently."

I refer you to my immediate above points.

"Yes I know, I'm nitpicking. But isn't this better? Tell me, why should we adhere to the more complex theory, when the game supports a simpler one?"

First, please explain how DT=/=SP is more complicated.

"Don't give me that "it's not stated/confirmed anywhere" argument. Yours isn't confirmed either. Both work flawlessly, and it's obivous that neither is confirmed nor denied, because we're still arguing about it. So, what exactly makes yours better then? And, once again, I want none of that "it's more faithful to the game" talk. Both are faithful to it, both are unconfirmed yet unflawed, and the only reason why mine is better is because it's simpler."

Mine doesn't contradict almost every ending of the game. Also, despite what I said earlier about the numbers I use, simpler isn't always better.

"Actually no, here's another reason, the correlation between SP and DT. That's a pretty objective argument imo."

Again, my three points near the beginning, as well as the ones just above.

"If you too have any such objective arguments towards your theory, I'm all ears. As I said, we will never be able to prove either one, but we can at least try to compare our weaker objective arguments. Mine are Occam's razor and a statistical correlation. What are yours?"

I simply take what I have and see, and try to come up with the most sound and logical way they can work.

I see no correlation with DT and SP, even after digging around - without hacking of course, since I have no means of doing that - so I don't correlate the two.

DT and other emotions are no different from one another here in the real world, so why should I assume they are in the game if there's no confirmation of it in the game?

DT is an extractable substance when the SOUL is physical? Well DT is a part of the SOUL, and since SOULs have been shown to come in all sorts of colors that represent different traits, then all those other traits are a part of the SOUL too and thus also extractable substance by association when the SOUL turns physical. It wouldn't make sense for there to be some strange difference that doesn't make it so, when there isn't anything that indicates a difference even existing.

I just use basic logic and deductive reasoning.

">There's also the fact that DT can decrease and increase, as shown by the SHS having theirs extracted (i.e decreasing), and the differences between the OF and GoHD fights(i.e a clear INCREASE).

In the first case, it's physically extracted. In the second case, we're merely comparing the power output of different amounts of souls. I'm not exactly sure what your argument is. If this is supposed to be an argument towards that "DT flux" thing that Frisk's soul experiences, it failed, because you didn't even address it."

Yes, I did, again, logic and deductive reasoning. DT is DT, if you lose it then you lose it, regardless of how you did so.

It still increased, Frisk still had more than Asriel, who had 7.5/8 SOULs worth of DT.

The argument was, again, against DT=SP; the metric given is broken by the simple actions of the SHS DT being extracted (and thus decreased), and Frisk having more that GoHD Asriel (who had either 7.5 or 8 HS worth of DT; thus an increase). A metric cannot change no matter what, and both of these events are clear violations of that metric, with or without a clear number of monsters.

">To everything else: we REFUSE multiple times in the exact same fight. It's even lampshaded by Asriel in that same fight.

To couple this with my responses above: It's not Frisk's physical DT that fluctuates, it's their psychological trait. This allows them, in the most extreme case, to refuse death itself. This is my explanation for this phenomena. And why couldn't the other children do this? Well I mean, in this case, the premise is that once you die, someone else will yoink your powers. The other children didn't face such a problem, meaning their souls didn't NEED to use the refuse power to begin with."

There wasn't someone else who also contended to have that power, like Flowey. There is also the fact that Frisk still has control of the timeline, and not GoHD Asriel, who had more DT than he did as Omega Flowey (and yet didn't regain SAVE, when he did as Omega Flowey) - I'm not even using the whole "you can go back to a SAVE in the GoHD fight" thing as an argument anymore, since I have the much better CANON QUOTE that proves this for me.

"So in other words, no, this isn't impossible if your trait isn't DT, because DT is a substance of the soul and does not manifest itself as a trait, so the issue isn't trait related. It is psychology related."

Trait are, literally, completely psychological. Do I even need to refer you to my first three points at this point?

">First off, the other six kids are dead, and clearly staying that way.

When we talk about their abilities, we are assuming it's about the times when they were still alive. There's of course a very easy answer for what abilities they have when they're dead: none."

Well obviously.

">In my opinion, REFUSE is an ability exclusive to Determination and those with Red SOULS.

Opinions are not arguments, dearie."

That is literally what everything here in these forums are: opinions! And don't call me dearie!

">To everything else: the problem here is that everyone else would already be being themselves due to their traits, making Red stand for "Being yourself" redundant.

There's hundreds of different psychological traits. Since the claim that you can achieve any of them by combining some 6 arbitrary ones is quite clearly bs (because there's no explanation for it in the game, nor in the real world), there should be and definitely are individuals that don't conform to any of these 6, either because they have something very unique, or because their traits are so balanced and or faint, that it's impossible to tell which one is dominant. For those individuals, the red trait might fit. If the 6 other traits were more generalized, I'd probably come up with something else, because I'd have no one to place under this scrap category.

So it's a balance of sorts. It depends on how broad you make the traits to be. If they're too broad, you don't need to put anyone under red, except for when the 6 are in a perfect balance (but that can be said only if they're quantifiable and extractable like DT, which is purely speculative). If you make them too narrow, then most of the population would have to have red souls, because nobody's personality is so black and white."

Considering that the first red flag DOES imply the former, I go for the former.

">My interpretation is that while the SOUL is you, the traits are who you are.

And I believe that the humans have a brain which is the primary source of their personality. Opinions opinions."

That's what I mean, that the trait is determined by what's in your brain.

">which is definitely what the PURPLE SOUL MODE exemplifies

Isn't that more about being bound to strings? I don't actually see how that ties in to perseverance."

When in the PURPLE SOUL MODE you go through the same patterns and scenarios, with no differences or alterations to each one you go through. You keep repeating them, going through them, and continuing to do them until you finish them. Not achieve a goal, finish the patterns and trials. Which is what perseverance is all about: repeating something and continuing to do it until you get it done.

Remember that destination and journey analogy I did before? DT is all about reaching the destination, while Perseverance is all about the journey TO that destination.

>I however refuse the Meta Explanation, and simply take the remaining quotes, lines, and such as your basic cosmic horror story. Nothing much really changes other than the loss of the double meta meaning.

Now that you mention that, you need to explain something to me. I wanna know your opinion on the monsters trashing their yellow names, telling you which buttons to press (including the F4 button), the Mad Dummy supposedly getting cotton all over the dialogue box according to Chara, and saying "reading this doesn’t seem like the best use of your time" during Sans's fight. Those are the most meta tropes found within the game."

First off, I think you mean meta moments, not tropes.

Pink Names and Mad Dummy - Monsters ARE aware of the battle system and the basics of the mechanics - mainly fight and mercy if this was anything to go by. They can clearly affect the HUD, so it doesn't seem farfetched that they just did exactly as the actions imply: they took the yellow names, threw them out, and replaced them.

F4 - It's been replaced by a Froggit that explains changing borders in the Switch Version. But, sticking to the F4 thing, it is played for a joke, so without the meta meaning I count it as just that: a joke.

Chara in Sans Fight - Simply them saying that it's not worth the time to read. Nothing much else.

If it's played as a joke, and not explicitly mentioned or abused by a character afterwards. Then it's either played off as a joke, or just not something that happened. (If something random happens and it's commented on by someone, then it happened. If not and no one acknowledges it even happened, then it didn't happen.)

">Heck, Deltarune even outright confirms that Red SOULS are vessels for other worldly entities in the Undertale Multiverse.

In the Deltarune universe. Lots of things are different over there."

Obviously, but what's so blatantly obvious there (Red SOULS and the Players connection) was also heavily implied and hinted in Undertale. Like I said, Frisk and Chara are their own entities with their own lives and feelings. Applying that bit from Deltarune to Undertale makes everything make a whole lot more sense. In a multiverse, things carry over in some form or fashion, it wouldn't be happening in Deltarune of it didn't happen in some form in Undertale.

">Mine is to: come up with a way that this world works without the Meta

I'm doing the exact same thing. You're just doing it in a very idiotic way. If you think that there are universes as crazy as the Undertale universe, I cannot help you. Lots of people believe lots of different things. I for example believe in reality. So when I see shit like this, my mind immediately trails off to the simulation / computer program explanation, before anything else. And that's mainly because there's no proof of such universes existing, but there definitely is proof that such universes could be created using simulations. You would just need enough computational power.

I mean heck, think about it from the inside. Let's say that the characters one day find out that their universe behaves exactly like a computer program (which it does; it indeed does resemble a computer game more than anything else). What are they going to think? That their universe has NOT been created by some highly advanced trans-dimensional beings, capable of simulating entire universes? You really think their first thought would be to immediately rationalize this absolutely pure and obvious parallel? What if we found out the same about our universe? Would you also keep so ignorantly claiming that it cannot be a simulation?"

That's intelligent design, which is what religious nuts have been saying for years is the case. It's also what THA has been saying.

"This is probably one of the most intense cases of utterly stubborn disbelief and denial I have ever seen in my life. You're like one of those Flat Earth fanatics, completely denying all common sense and logic, just to assert your thesis. I at least have enough brain matter in my head to acknowledge that the simulation hypothesis is also very plausible, maybe even more plausible than my favourite head canon: no meta at all, instead of simultaneously denying both and coming up with some completely nonsensical "let's higgledy-piggledy merge the two hypotheses together like the morons we are" third case.

I'm sorry but there's no other way for me to put this. Your theory and method is objectively too convoluted to be acceptable. If you wish to think of Undertale as an entire existing reality and not just consisting of the things it has explicitly shown to contain, there are only two explanations: our own universe, with only sensible modifications to its own rules being allowed, or a simulation. There are no in-between cases."

The first one is literally WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYNG THIS ENTIRE DAMN TIME!

">Also, OK KO Let's be Heroes very world would like a word with you, it acts exactly like a video game (EXP, Stats, etc.) but is not a game.

The more game-like tropes it contains, the more probable it is that it's actually a game, regardless of what its inhabitants think, or what the creator himself/herself thinks."

Wow, how pretentious.

"Being a creator/writer/game developer does not give you the liberty to redefine logic."

I have the right to say what my creation is, make it the way I want it, and define it the way I want to. What you say does not matter in that case. I'm the creator, my word is law, what I say goes, and that's that.

What next, the universes of Peni Parker, Spider Man Noir, and Spider Ham are nothing but cartoons because they use tropes from anime, film noir, and cartoons? Despite the fact that they are canonically stated to be actual existing universes.

Do you see how pretentious you're sounding yet? And also why I said that you must not have any fun or enjoyment watching any show, cartoon, or movie, or playing any game?

"Either something is a stand-alone universe, which must imply a complete disassociation of the meta (example: Lord of the Rings), or it's a simulation due to the meta (Oneshot, Matrix), or something isn't a universe to begin with (ex.: internet joke comic strips; those rarely exist as their own imaginative universe)."

Depends on what you exactly mean by simulation, because everything you've said up 'til now does nothing but imply the "nothing - and I mean NOTHING - exist, matters, or has any purpose or meaning" interpretation of a simulation. The Matrix at least has a purpose, reason, and sense of reality to it despite being artificial. While it isn't real, the people, emotions, and relationships are.

">The Battle System and HUD are intrinsically connected, you can't have one without the other.

Very well. It's a simulation then."

Again, depends on what you exactly mean by that, because all that you've said NOW is what THA has said: Intelligent Design.

">Here's an example:

Unrelating. I was saying how he doesn't comment about how you've managed to cheat your way out of the battle, when he does comment on other similar events, that are actually way less important than this one. He even makes multiple ones sometimes, for when you keep doing the same thing over and over again. Isn't his transformation into Asriel probably the most important thing to have ever happened to him?"

First: At least answer it.

Second: And it's going to continue to happen because there is no other way things can go from that point on. He knows how things are going to go, how things are going to end - at least until Frisk flips the tables on him. It's the end, there's no other way things can go unless you do what he wants and reset.

At least with Genocide there was the fact that he was robbed of seeing something he failed to see so many times before At least when he did so when you did the same thing over and over, there was a level of annoyance to it.

Here, there's no point, it's the same thing over and over. The same end point again and again. The same outcome that'll result in the same fight and scenario every time.

Frisk still has control, both of them know it, and the scenario is never going to change - even if Frisk resets. There's no point.

It would be redundant.