Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27136653-20180228205701/@comment-27136653-20180330080806

"Or, it was just a coincidence, because "Loox" is his actual name. Even the HUD agrees with that. So, unless Chara somehow IS the HUD... And "eyewalker" could just be because he looks like an eye with legs."

But eyewalker makes no sense whatsoever. No one walks on their eyes. Plus, there's the fact that "Loox" sounds like "Luke." This IS a Star Wars reference. That's undeniable.

"We do-From the same shot that we first see the CORE, directly above magma. Yeah, there's actually proof the CORE is above magma:You weren't aware?"

As I said, perhaps there are other routes to New Home that utilize no elevators, but take too long to get through. I mean, there HAS to be some alternative way. What if the elevators malfunction? Oh that's right, the monsters make no engineering mistakes according to you. Yeah, no. Everyone makes mistakes. And there for sure were routes before the elevators happened; as I've explained, it is improbable for the area to be a one massive cliff all the way across. In fact, Waterfall is leveled with New Home, so Hotland is more of a pit. As I said before.

"As I say later on in the same post, I don't believe the CORE was always a powerplant. At the time of that post, I believed the CORE started out as just an elevator. A large-scale building with an elevator, yes, but still, just an elevator."

Even simpler, there were just scaffolds and ramps at first, assuming the cliff was unclimbable all the way across. After all, you need a power source for the elevators. Also, "CORE" refers to the powerplant. Not to anything else. So what you're referring to isn't the CORE anymore.

"Unless, they just so happened to already be above the hill when they first came into existence."

We are talking about a real-world picture here. That did not happen.

"Or, Alphys in more modern times coined the phrase by totally ripping off the humans, and Flowey learned it from her."

For that, the phrase must have been contained in the trash, most likely in some computer. Alphys had to learn how to read from the memory, extract this specific passage, understand the context correctly and finally start using it frequently enough for the others, for example Flowey, to pick up on it too. Do you know how incredibly improbable that is? The chance of someone knowing this phrase firsthand coming from the surface (Chara) telling it to Asriel is much, MUCH higher. This is inarguable.

"Because there's more than one elevator."

Because some are labeled L and some R, while being a part of the same system.

"Though perhaps it's the ONLY example that could have been given.. Because there aren't any others!"

I gave it as an example because it combined several directions at once and therefore, it fit the category. The fact that it never stopped didn't matter, as one could just add a stopping system and the problem would be solved. Besides, if you were to just google this, you'd immediately see you're wrong. They exist. And we aren't discussing thermonuclear reactors here either, just simple lifts. So I don't know why you would think there aren't any.

"The reason is actually simple. The CORE isn't made out of wood. Scaffolds are, evidenced by their very definition."

I don't know of any definition of scaffolds that would specify wood only, but when I google this phrase, I find metal ones too.

"Which is why the elevators were needed as evidence."

The elevators themselves don't prove anything. Not the concrete shape of the cliff, since we don't even know if the elevators run in a straight vertical chamber to begin with (but even if they did, that still wouldn't tell us anything about the cliff's shape), nor its shape across the entire length, since we don't know if the elevators run across its entire length (and they most likely don't anyways). But as you said, yes, there would have to be more walking involved. But since we end up on top of the castle wall (I mean, we do see the buildings in the background from a high elevation perspective), then either the elevator began inside of the cliff if the cliff isn't straight, or the elevator itself isn't straight, as you yourself admitted just now.

"the problem was actually being able to do it."

That's a problem that applies to everything. And magma powerplants just aren't so common here. For monsters however, it would be the only way, so they would try extra hard.

"Yes, I REALLY think they do. Take another look at the image"

All I see is a black void around the pool of magma that could be filled with safe alternative routes.

"It was all educational information, and they serve to explain historical events"

How do you know that it was meant for education though? Lots of historical documentations were made to remember and recall the events, not necessarily to be easily understandable to the young. And if it is as detailed as you're saying it is, then it must be an all-encompassing encyclopedia and not just a simple history book, contrary to what the title says.

"Some things weren't explained, such as humans being unable to represent themselves through magic, and what would happen if an evil human came down-Instead, they were explained in books not even in that series."

Which is again more proof that this is no encyclopedia meant to explain the basics too. It's just a compilation of documentations written by (most likely) multiple authors throughout the years, and whoever compiled it didn't want to leave any of it out, meaning, things unrelated to history wound up in it too. And the fact that not all info is contained in them shows that they bothered to make no more research than this, further proving my point.

"Not omni, some stuff isn't explained."

So it can't be what you're saying it is. Either you explain everything you can, so that the learner understands as much as possible, or you don't.

"Like Asgore being terrible at names? That's practically a fact."

It was an unnecessary remark directed at their supreme leader. It's not something that belongs to a school book. School books would undoubtedly glorify the royalty. But we all laugh at our politicians at home, don't we?

"Title implies otherwise."

The title says monster history, so that's what we should expect. So if we see something unrelated to monster history, rather than trying to stir up a paradox, we should be looking for a rational explanation. If it isn't just monster history, it makes more sense to argue that whatever we saw was just a footnote. And then I added, that due to how subjective some of the parts are, this wasn't meant to be a strictly learning material, but it's probably just a compilation of knowledge about their history, which implies that different parts were written at different times.

"It helps clear things up, though, so you don't find yourself utterly confused when you get to the documentation part."

I've seen multiple books doing footnotes at the end of chapters. If it's consistent, one could always go to the end to check for something they don't understand. Now that I'm thinking about it, that is the standard procedure for most books and educational magazines actually. One can go straight to the topic that way, since the footnotes are not the topic discussed.

"Where are you getting this info from? This is just as ridiculous as alchemy, and for the same reasons, as well. Come on, let's go through the Scientific Revolution again."

I'm talking about Toby here, not about ancient alchemy. Toby wrote these for a reason, and he scrapped many of these for a reason too. Understanding why may just help us understand what could be written in those missing volumes, and whether the individual parts really are ordered chronologically or not. Think outside the box for once, sheesh.

"...Why? Because illuminati?"

Because the books seem to contain all the important things that we learn later on in the game. Taking the time range, we can guess what the volumes 2 and 3 contain. The guess is, that they contain the most important events of that time range, which Toby later decided to scrap in favor of a better storytelling method. There's no reason why they should contain unimportant information, when you look at it from Toby's point of view. These were meant to explain something vital to the plot, just like the rest.

"I mean, what's to say the Chara info isn't in, well, I don't know, Volumes 6-7?"

All I'm doing right now is looking at it from an out-game point of view. Each volume contains only what we see in the game, since that's exactly how long Toby each of those volumes made. If Toby wrote about Chara, it wasn't in the volumes that we've seen, since if it was, we would, logically, see it in them. Ergo, he wrote it in a different volume which he then erased from the game's files. Though, with how chaotic the strings are, it is possible that Chara's story could have been merged with one of the other volumes, but probably not, because Chara's story is quite long, so it would undoubtedly be split up and moved into a standalone volume. After all, volumes 6 to 8 are kinda continuous and yet, they're not merged into one.

"It demands a deep and abiding faith in things you cannot know."

And yet you seem to be adamant that horizontal elevators don't exist.

"Right.. Yeah, I actually deduced it using deductive reasoning. I used the fact that the Quran and Bible keep the original names to show the standard cannot be to discard them and start numbering them-If it was, it would be followed by these books."

That's inductive reasoning. Inductive reasoning of a sample size of 2. Also, don't you dare claim that no other compilations exist. There are others. Saying that I can't present proof that there are others proving that there really aren't any is like saying that quantum mechanics aren't real, just because I can't explain it to you. Or that the Earth is flat, just because I cannot disprove someone's idiotic claim about some star dome and horizon perspecive bending, because they explain it using their own made up rules.

Listen. I want a rule. Not a list of books that obey the said rule. Show me a rule that explanations of a chapter must preceed a chapter. Ps., there's no such rule, anyone is free to write whatever they want and however they want. And no, it doesn't make anything simpler either, since that's subjective. If the discussed topic requires more fundamental knowledge that's too big to explain in a footnote, you probably need a different book to learn it. If it's small and insignificant enough to be included there, it shall be included there, usually at the end. None of my books assume that I cannot read or do basic arithmetic. That's my inductive proof. From the hundreds of books I've read, none started from the very basics, unless I've specifically picked a book that's all about the basics.

So again, the fact that the monster history contains stuff about monster biology and satirical remarks shows, that it is not meant to be an educational series for schools.

"He explains all about the Delta Rune to you, and asks what they teach you in school since you don't know about that. He's ALL ABOUT explaining everything."

So he's concerned and knows a lot. That still doesn't mean he wrote anything. Heck, this sole information doesn't even tell us whether he can even write. We of course know that he can from other things. But there's absolutely nothing to tell us whether he really wrote that series. I would bet that some of his notes were used in it, but I wouldn't bet that he was the one to collect and compile them too. There's just not enough proof for that, and I like to stick to my razor of Occam.

"It was over a thousand years of history, there'd be enough memorial events to fill that gap."

What events? As I said, one could remember the vague details and the biggest events, but to remember enough to fill several books all at once after a thousand years of not writing a single note simply isn't possible. Though, keeping notes and then rewriting everything would be an acceptable explanation. But then again, I already stated what I think about Gerson writing all of these himself. And also, if he's the compiler, then there's no science involved (because he's not a scientist).

"Why can't he be both?"

He doesn't appear to be dedicated enough to this subject for us to start drawing such conclusions from him. As I said, he chose to run a shop.

"with the adults being a few hundred!"

Perhaps. But none of this matters. Either they remember the war, or they don't.

"Yeah, but we don't SEE any "teenagers"."

Snowdrake is a teenager. So are his friends. This is directly mentioned in the game. There's also even younger monsters in the game too.

"He boasts about being the Hammer of Justice."

He says that knowledge is the only reason he's survived for so long. I wouldn't dismiss this.

"He usually actually inverted it."

Yes, it's obvious he made fun of plenty of things this way, by putting everything upside down. So this does surprise me. Why did he choose a turtle as an image of an old person? Perhaps, he had no intention of doing the reverse thing here. You can never be sure on anything. And inverting absolutely every preconception and superstition that exists out there would be very difficult. Impossible even, as the context may not make any sense that way. It's true, Toby made fun of many things, but there's nothing to show that he did it here as well. Nothing to show that everyone can get exceptionally old, except for Gerson. We simply see that Gerson is very old here. That's it. So I said that this is perhaps why he chose to use a turtle monster here, to further emphasize his age. I'd say there's nothing wrong about that.

"Just the stuff you need to know to understand their history."

If you mean history by that, then there's Monster History for that. If you don't mean that, then I can guarantee you the monsters don't learn solely from the Monster History series, but actually have multiple subjects, just like in regular schools in the real life. If that is the case, the Monster History series isn't meant for teaching. And besides, not every historical book you may find in your local library is an educational book. Most aren't anyways. You usually buy those in a bookstore.

"Enough so that more historical events would affect the whole."

That's what I said.

"Before the first move, there was ONLY "globally", because the Ruins was all there was."

Not necessarily. We're not talking about entire locations here. So events that involved only a few monsters still count.

"Pretty sure they don't think the humans are stupid enough to leave escape routes like that."

You think that, not them. We don't know anything about what the humans and the monsters thought. So I take it that the monsters at least hoped that there would be an exit somewhere, and that the barrier only protected the main entrance.

"Yeah, they would. Because they'd know that one was sealed as well."

Remember though! They also mentioned nothing getting in. Since stuff can regularly fall through the barrier as if there was nothing, this could have meant only one thing if they were sure on that. That there were no natural openings at all. And, as I've explained, the New Home entrance most likely doesn't count due to how it behaves. You can't see the barrier elsewhere, but you can here. So the monsters probably thought that even though it isn't caved in, nothing can get through it anyways. Which, as I said again, implies they thought the barrier is blocking only the part that they entered through. True, they could just dig their way out then, but who knows if the one who wrote those plaques really thought of this back then. I mean, picking solid rock is definitely harder than searching for a way out.

But assuming they did, I think we should come up with an alternative explanation for all of this for the time being.

"Or, it implies they knew the Barrier would seal ALL the entrances. Because they witnessed it be cast."

Seeing the barrier traverse through the walls? Only if you have a magical X-ray vision or something. From their POV, they would just see the entrance getting sealed. Unless the spell could be visible through the walls somehow.

"These specific plaques come before the Trash Dump. Before Mad Dummy."

Then they would have went back and erased them. There's no way they forgot about them when they lied so close to the place where they found the proof that their prior assumptions were wrong. Unless they cut off the expedition there, and then did another one x years later, taking an entirely different route to the dump. That's the only way I can see them forgetting about the plaques they wrote during the expeditions.

"They first had to make some puzzles, which they did, until eventually they reached the end of the caverns. And that was it. Exploring around the dangerous terrain of Snowdin with the technology level of.. Like the 1850's (Probably earlier than that-Monsters were ahead of humans because they were progressing at a faster rate.).. Isn't really feasible, especially when humans could just come from another hole. (I'm pretty sure they wouldn't assume this was the only hole.) So.. They stopped there, and made the one-way door."

So you're saying they didn't even try? As I said, they would have scouted the terrain for better hideout places. They wouldn't stay in the very first area where the humans could find them easily. As for their level of technology, that's completely debatable. All we know is that they were sealed a long time ago. So their technology should be by all means of logic comparable to that era. Also, didn't you say above that the monsters didn't think the humans left any 'accidental' holes open? Why did you say here that the monsters thought they did then?

"It was a little over a century after the war."

Exactly. But we don't know that. As I said, they wouldn't bother building an entire city there, with stone buildings and architecture and whatnot. They settled there permanently, meaning, they didn't want to continue further. Else they wouldn't bother. So the real question now is, DID they really come from that direction? If they came from the New Home end, they wouldn't continue further, because, well, they couldn't. The ruins is the last area. And Home spans the entirety of that area.

Home and New Home are both permanent settlements. When they settled there, they hoped they would get out one day, but they had no plans and no real reason just yet either. Which is why Home looks like something more than a temporary camp.

Alas, I already stated all the reasons why Chara fell in the early 21st century, all of which you have dismissed the same way a flat earther dismisses a proof of the Earth's roundness. I will not accept any further counter arguments towards this from now on, because now you're just in denial. You are basically putting probability above evidence, even though 8 children falling down within a single century within a millenia of nothing is a totally possible scenario, even if it is unlikely. As I argued earlier, perhaps something prevented them from falling down.

"Something similar to this was my explanation as to why they didn't keep going towards New Home:That they feared a human attack from the other side, from other holes, if they went too far."

How did they know that there were holes on the other side though? Because they scouted it? As I said, there is no reason they would stay in Home, else they were absolutely sure that that is the safest place they can be. And if they knew both sides had holes, they would stay in Waterfall, which is still more safe, because even though it has holes, there's water going through them. So if the humans wanted to attack, they would most likely choose one of the more comfortable routes.

"And undo the one thing they were trying to do when they made the barrier in the first place..?"

Yeah. If you're gonna kill the monsters, you don't need the barrier anymore afterwards, and you also have to get out somehow afterwards.

"It's just that over a century passed with NO humans falling, and that's when they decided no human is EVER going to come down, because they "can't"."

Because they found no holes. If there were holes, they wouldn't be sure on that. And a single thing falling through one of them and they would know they're wrong. But they were VERY sure. It's not just melancholic denial. They STATED that the underground has no holes, which is the reason why no one has fallen yet. They had PROOF.

"Monsters, you missed a hole. *points to the New Home hole*"

As I said above, I think they perhaps thought that nothing can get through that one either way, since unlike the other holes, this one has the barrier visible inside it. It's a strange assumption, but perhaps it's true, perhaps they did think that. And as for the other holes, they either weren't there, or they were, but the monsters didn't notice them. I'm talking about the Waterfall right now. Of course they would notice the hole in the ruins (so it wasn't there most likely).

"Why even do that if they didn't think the humans knew? Also, why didn't they put their city at the VERY end, instead of the Snowdin/Ruins border? They supposedly went to the END of the caverns.."

Because all humans can be dangerous. Building puzzles WAS necessary. And as I've explained already, it's nonsensical to argue that Home sits close to the border. Home is a city, not just that one room accessible in the game where we see the buildings in the background. What however does make sense to argue over, is why was the royal home built near this border.

Truthfully, I can only guess. Perhaps, they started building the city from the very end, and made the royal home last, so it sit the closest to the border. After all, they also did the same for New Home, and there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason for that, except maybe an easy access to the surface for the king, or the first line of defense for the monsters, etc.

But my main point is, that arguing over the position of an entire city is nonsensical. And as for the positions of the royal homes, they were most likely chosen based on some arbitrary decision. Since there's so many possibilities, so many reasons they could have had for doing it the way they did, I think it may have been a random decision.

"Only AFTER Chara showed their kindness would the fear dissipate."

Which is what I meant. But Chara wouldn't have to do this in front of everyone. The monsterkind would just believe Asgore's word. Lastly, I can see what you're implying. I don't think there were no plans to move before Chara came. It would be just too weird. Why relocate because of a single human? All that struggle through the different areas of the underground for what exactly? They could have just stayed where they are, else there was another reason for it, for example, Home being unsuitable for living, after existing for so long.

But they definitely stopped fearing the humans because of Chara.

"but before they reached the trash dump."

So they just forgot about them? Lol, who wrote those plaques, Gerson? As I said, unless they stopped the expedition there and did another one x years later by taking a completely different path, I see no reason why they wouldn't just go back and quickly fix their enormous misconception, since the two, the plaques and the dump, are so close to each other.

"What's to say nobody noticed that giant hole when the monsters were at the top of Mt. Ebott, just about to be banished?"

It's just a single door-sized frame: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6gS2LPXdIc5ZFRCdHo4T2hyMVE/view

If it is located on the same mountain, it must have been at the other end of it. Invisible to the monsters. Unless they knew about it beforehand. But then, they wouldn't be so quick to assume there aren't any holes, don't you think?

But this does make me question one more thing. The door frame. The barrier lies in front of it. Meaning, it itself lies outside of the barrier. How is such thing even possible?

"but just thought they couldn't be passed through."

Perhaps it was about size. Perhaps they weren't large enough, which is why they thought no human will ever come through them. As for the big holes at the ends, we know that they are indeed large enough for a human to pass through them.

"The one who scouted the area was just Asgore and a certain few dozen regular monsters. So.. Yeah. That's reasonable."

I always imagined that the king would send members of the royal guard as scouts, not himself. Ever heard of a king scouting or leading any expedition for that matter? Wars, maybe. Scouting, nope.

"It was. That's why the puzzles were created in the FIRST PLACE."

Yes. That didn't move the monsters at all though (pun intended). As I said, moving was not something on the urgent list. It was their stone city, their permanent settlement for what I believe at least a thousand years.

"The humans, who picked out the mountain to banish the monsters to, didn't know about an obvious hole...? That's suspicious..."

Yeah... perhaps it wasn't there back then.

"See that tiny white light in the intro?"

That's sunshine. Imo the white part doesn't look smooth and weird enough to be the barrier. If the barrier is there, it is invisible.

"If nothing can get through either way, it would be black."

The visible barrier is quite clearly generating its own light.

"Bottom right. That's clearly a hole. If it's not, I don't know what is."

A cliffside. The entrance most likely lies opposite to where everyone is staring. Sans walked into that direction near the end. Besides, the fact that the end contains a door and not some stairs leading up or something plays more towards the straight entrance possibility. Besides, if that dark area WAS the hole, they would probably need a ladder or something.

"It's a flashback."

Is it though? The part showing Chara definitely is. But does Chara remember the monsters getting banished? No, of course not. So the story of humans and monsters at the very beginning could very well be just a stylised myth, since there's no apparent person present to whom this part, assuming it is a flashback, might belong to.

And it goes like this for plenty of games, shows and stories. We first have the stylised intro, and then we learn the "truth". Heh, I mean, why would Toby bother adding the plaques, if they were obviously a lie? No no no, the intro is the lie here.

"Because they literally fell through it."

Fell through a walkable entrance, which got sealed of immediately afterwards with what looks like an impassable wall of pure magic. Yeah, I still think the monsters thought it was meant to be impassable from both ways. Since the humans never entered directly through it.

"Which they know would free them."

The monsters would have no idea what's coming though. Remember, it's not like everyone knew immeditately what happened after the barrier broke. The Froggits didn't know, plenty of monsters reacted as if this was some news they've heard from someone, etc.

And even if, where would they go? If the humans took it from that entrance that can be easily walked through, the monsters wouldn't be able to flee, since the other one is pretty... unclimbable. They wouldn't manage to get through it quickly enough.

"Better be safe and assume they can until it's evident they're not coming."

Evident as in, guess? That's no evidence. Not to them, not to anyone.

"It was too high to reasonably reach to test. Plus, they'd have no way to test to see if it can enter, since they couldn't get anything out to try and get it back in."

Build stuff to reach it ffs. If it was a possible exit, they would have undoubtedly tried something like this the moment they first saw it. And I was talking about going out here, not about stuff going in. If they saw that they can't go out, but light can go in, what else can go in? And you YOURSELF said how much they knew about science. Alas, perhaps a leaf or something fell through that would then tell them that physical matter can indeed fall through.

"There were puzzles."

Puzzles that halt a person for a minute or so. They should have blocked the path off completely.

"Which means Gerson somehow wrote Volumes 6-7 before Chara fell"

No, since as I said, different parts could have been written at different times. This goes true both for the plaques AND the book volumes.

"But, of course, we have to ask, how?"

Idk, Riverperson can see into the future, so that's how, probably.

"Conservation of Magic?"

That implies the human magicians died creating this spell, using the entirety of their souls to create something that can only be countered with the same amount of power, ergo, seven whole human souls.

"that's convinced it all HAS to be real."

Yes, but in a sensible way. She still hasn't lost her touch with reality. I'm pretty sure she can recognize humans in cartoons. When you look at the TV, you also see people in it, and you don't think that somewhere, there's pixels in the shape of Donald Trump floating about.

"I even pointed out that her definition of "modern technically" is completely twisted."

No, you SAID it was twisted. I did not, for comparison. She took no insane leaps. YOU assumed that she meant that anime is literally real when she said that 'anime is real', and not that the events the anime portrays are real, as any other sane person on this planet would. She said all of their tech comes from the human trash, which isn't insane at all, but YOU said it was, because it disagreed with your little headcanon that Gaster needed no trash to get everything working, despite having no proof of this and yet, having L I T E R A L effing proof from another character about the converse being true.

ARE YOU SAYING UNDYNE IS INSANE JUST BECAUSE YOU "THINK" GASTER ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED EVERYTHING BEFORE THE HUMANS DID, JUST BECAUSE YOU "THINK" THAT CHARA FELL 200 YEARS AFTER THE BARRIER BROKE?

I'm sorry, this isn't a theory. It's just your headcanon. Let it go. Undyne said the trash is the reason why the monsters are so advanced and Sans implied that Toriel was gone for a century, not a millenia. This implies that the monsters were in sync with the human development and that the 8 humans fell roughly within one century (although I'm willing to add up to 50% to this estimate... but not 2000%). And Gaster? He was the underground's Nikola Tesla, not the luckiest crazy inventor in the history of game plots ever.

"By Occam's razor, "anime is real" means "anime is real"."

That is not simple. As you yourself described it, for anime itself to be real, special effects would have to be set up. But if it was just showing what the humans do and how they act (but NOT who they 'are'), we do not need to assume that. As I said, Occam's razor rules your possibility out quite easily.

...

Is this seriously the first thing that came into your mind when you first heard that phrase? That she was being literal?

"It's not safe to assume anything regarding Toby"

Language yes. Yes because otherwise, 'dog' could be 'cat' and 'tomorrow' could be 'yesterday'. If someone says that a non-physical concept is real, they probably mean the information that the concept is containing, not the concept itself. Since logically, a non-physical concept being physical makes no sense. And don't say it does to Undyne. You said she's insane based on this assumption. Just because she's eager into plenty of things doesn't mean she is insane. Just that she enjoys it. She's a monster after all. Plenty of monsters act weird and do stuff in untraditional ways. But they're not insane. They're just being themselves, they're being monsters. They're not like humans.