Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27907368-20160428221757/@comment-27907368-20160504052943

Alright, thank you for mapping all of these out - I noted a few more of them in a word document and lost track of time with finals. Eek! Anyway, let's do this!

We know how hot trash he is at identifying motivation within people. Similar to the TP Route, he may be projecting into the protagonist what he wants to see. His end goal is to share a body with Chara again and not use the god-like power they'll have. He just wants share a body with his best friend and have some that understands him. He just wants to live - and he’d hope to see that kind of “DETERMINATION” in his best friend.

http://i.imgur.com/isDiUEj.gif

I'd also like to make the difference between "saving" and SAVING. SAVING is what occurs in the TP final boss, while saving is what we do at the star things. The uppercase, man.

http://i.imgur.com/7A87Xtl.png

I'll note explanations for the reasons you've mentioned (though, you are correct. I'm looking to explain a few odd aspects of the game that haven't added up before). They are traits inconsistent with the rest of the game up until that point and are worth mentioning, so here we are.

Bergentruckung - during the encounters with the other SOULs, the red SOUL cannot shatter. When you call for help, HP is restored. Flowey gives you the same look that he gives you at the beginning of the game, basically a "what the hell" face.

Undyne the Undying - I mentioned this one. She refuses death and stays alive long after we believe that her HP is 0; this is akin to what Asriel sees in his boss fight, probably.

And come on, are you going to blatantly ignore an item that has both kinds of determination written on it? What's the point in that?

Think of it this way. What we see at the end of TP totally negates the saving and loading and resetting mechanic. Saving, loading and resetting in a battle occur after the SOUL shatters, which doesn't happen during that fight. Our HP reduces to a tiny tiny amount, but the SOUL will not shatter. Have you ever wondered why Asgore kills us? It may be because he expects our SOULs to refuse like every other human SOUL he's encountered.

http://i.imgur.com/Wrob90e.png

When true to their core trait, human SOULs persist outside of their bodies after death. Until we are true to Frisk's SOUL, this does not happen and we shatter like a boss monster. I don't know how the other humans got to Asgore, but it is hinted that they had determination because Toriel says that all of the fallen humans seem familiar to her, and Asgore isn't surprised that he's killed us a billion times. The last time Toriel fought them, they live, make it to Asgore, and had DETERMINATION in a fight with him.

Moreso, none of the previous humans erase all of the monsters. It's not implied that they kill any of them.

http://i.imgur.com/Wk4BnS8.png

Half of these traits could hardly be true if they gained EXP. I'm going to point out a few other facets of the Asriel battle that are unique. When struggling against the Angel of Death, you "Can't move your body". This follows Asriel using "HYPER GONER" and "purging the timeline". Some pretty interesting dialogue goes on here.

"In a few moments, you'll forget everything, too. That attitude will serve you well in your next life." I believe that our physical body is gone and that Asriel believes that, without our body, we'll forget who we are. Forgetting everything will serve us well in our next life? I mean, maybe it's a figure of speech, or maybe Asriel wants us to shatter and forget so that we have to reset. He's also wrong, knowing that the SOULs remember the DT Extraction machine. Ugh.

Anyway, there has to be a triumvirate. We know as a fact that we possess Frisk's SOUL. Chara tells us that our determination and human soul awoke them from death and tells us that we killed everyone and pushed the world to its edge. So, Chara is out of the picture when it comes to determination and DETERMINATION.

http://i.imgur.com/o3ZyZlz.png

If we're following the dogma that all Determination comes from Frisk, what can we say for the Genocide Route? Where is that determination coming from, merely one room away from Chara? Frisk is the recognized hero of the TP route and it's strange that they would still be determined after their SOUL is shattered dozens of times by someone they consider a friend.

It's canon that the human body is a physical vessel for the SOUL, and that this vessel is what allows humans to be so "determined". We guide this vessel for the vast majority of the game. The game doesn't play itself until Chara takes over with their "determination".

If we're to accept duality, Why would Frisk be determined in the genocide route? More so, why does re-fusing only occur in the pacifist ending? Game mechanics change, the changes in TP being impossible to ignore.