Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20181006015346

"And the point is, you reload while you're still conscious, which means before you actually die."

That line is incredibly blurry, since one can be "alive" even with only their essence left and nothing else. I will reiterate this below.

Besides, I see that the reload happens after the soul shatters and after we hear the encouraging words. I don't think it happens before we die.

"Because hacking is not what you're supposed to do as the player. It's cheating."

And yet, the possibility of it is coded. My point is, you are trying to keep everything canon, and yet you're filtering through the canon. How's that ANY different from what I'm doing? How do we know what to filter and what not? What is meta and what isn't? How about the post-pacifist credits with Asriel, how meta is all of that once again, I ask?

"Also, they have been wrong before. They said that "we" (the monsters) will be trapped forever, because no entrances or exits exist, and human will never fall."

Hence why I argued the hole didn't use to exist. That this was before things have changed to their current state.

They weren't wrong, back when this information was written down. At least, that's my guess here.

And about information that doesn't change, for example the rules of magic, I argue that that's unchanging, ergo, the plaques cannot be wrong about this topic, unless disputed somewhere else by the game, by Toby explicitly creating a plot twist where old information is discarded and replaced by new.

And thinking about the utility of the plaques, they serve no other purpose but to inform. Replacing them therefore seems utterly pointless. Hence why I argue they are objectively true.

"And yet you claim the intro was wrong just to support your "third race" theory, while my simpler one keeps the intro correct."

It's someone's vision. At first, it's an objective truth, that's what we're meant to think. But then we learn that it isn't. It was a fake one, or, a very distorted truth, at the very least. The true objective info are therefore the plaques.

"Actually, the only case she got something wrong was with the amalgamates. We do have her getting the layout of the CORE wrong, but that's because Mettaton rearranged it."

And that's why I don't think her sole role is to educate the player. Which was kind of obvious from the get go.

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"The strength of the SOUL is DT, and the power of that strength is to persist outside the human body even after death (as shown by the other 6 SOULS and the Battle System)."

Why tho, why complicate it so much? Why "the power of the strength", why not "strength of the soul = power of the soul?" We are allowed to interpret it like this, since those two words could be synonyms, referring to the same object.

"What we've been saying are on two different plaques, they're on the same plaque, I'm not kidding."

I think it's like this on PC too. My info source probably merged all the plaques together and spliced them row by row. I've been referring to them as individual plaques simply for clarity.

This doesn't change anything.

"No, I don't. But Frisk had more DT than Asriel by that time, but not Omega Flowey when he came into power, that's all there is to it."

And is left unexplained. DT flux is never mentioned in the game, and it is rather implied that everyone has their own levels of DT, so this would be rather a bit weird, Frisk going from 1 to over and beyond 7... somehow. A really pathetic deux ex machina tbh. Plus, if Frisk blah blah flux, then their soul wouldn't need to refuse, and there's no proof that Asriel's projectiles would prevent them from reloading, none. Plus, throw in the correlation of DT and SP, and you've got yourself a nice and convincing argument, that's nowhere near as dumb as your deux ex machina hypothesis.

"You LOAD as you're leaving the mortal coil, just before you die, and feeling the primal desire to not want to die, as Flowey said. If you can't even BE at that point, and are killed instantly, then you won't LOAD. Simple logic an deductive reasoning."

One can exist as an essence though. Plus, our soul clearly breaks and that's it. I think we DO die. Flowey is different though. He has no soul. What does that mean, I'm leaving up to you now.

"Asriel NOT commenting on something that would honestly be redundant is NOT a plot hole."

Redundant? He comments on all sorts of things as Flowey. My point is, this action has no acknowledgement in the game, and considering the intensity of the situation, it makes sense that Toby might have forgot about this possibility.

Let's face it, this is the limitation of the game, that if you close the program, it will execute a reload, even if it previously established some lore rules, such as, losing means X, yet we can bypass it.

Not quite the same, is it? It seems like everything is at stake during the final battle, and then we get this loop hole. No, I'm not buying this, this isn't something that Toby did intentionally. This is no longer theorizing, this is nitpicking.

"You make up a rule about composite SOULS and another rule about S/L/R splitting just to explain why Omega Flowey and Asriel are different."

And you're arguing that power isn't power, yet strength is power. We have a strength and power used as synonyms here, both referring to the same object, not to each other as you're claiming.

All I'm doing over here is addressing the simple issue that Asriel had more power than Omega Flowey, yet seemingly lesser abilities (which I've explained by attributing those lesser abilities to Omega Flowey too, which I can do, since the game didn't actually confirm whether he had more or less abilities than Asriel, especially with the reset power, since he didn't get to use that one at all).

If we truly were capable of generating so much DT, there would be no fight, no struggle, the battle would have been a breeze to us. But it wasn't, it was presented as a single-shot situation.

The solution cannot lie in DT, because then it wouldn't "feel" right. I'm also referring to how Toby made us feel about the plot, not just the info it presents.

Plus, you know, you're claiming that you use Occam's razor, yet you're refusing to acknowledge the fact that the "power of the strength of the soul" is more redundant than "the power of the soul", and the latter works totally fine gramatically, and would actually be the preferred meaning linguistically.

"No, the burden is on YOU, you're the one who made the claim so you're the one who has to back it up. That's all there is to it. No, it's not, for either case."

I made what claim, that power is power? If that's what we're discussing, once again, my take is simpler, and the burden of proof is on you.

"Frisk is only a Mary Sue if they can do it whenever and wherever they want, which they can't, as shown by the rest of the game."

Yeah. I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's ridiculous for their DT to multiply 7-fold, enough to beat a literal god. Even if you think soul power isn't DT, DT is still a literal superpower, so such a wild jump does matter quite a lot. It's the fact that they have this ability at all.

As I said, with so much DT, getting through that fight would be a breeze, since nothing can threaten Frisk at that point. So now we get to the fact that their soul refused instead, which is really weird. There's no proof that Asriel poses any threat to them, they're just another monster. The only two explanations remaining are: pointless addon, or our assumptions about Frisk being so determined were wrong.