Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-34798955-20180310144518/@comment-32182236-20190121005654

Alright, let me dissect your argument piece by piece.

First off, a fellow NarraChara theorist! Nice job! I've actually proven the theory:https://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:140457

And I mean CONCLUSIVELY. I've went over even strange characters that I don't think anybody has even argued the narrator might be, like REDACTED and the Gaster Followers..

But Chara does NOT help you spare monsters. In fact, a FROGGIT is more helpful than Chara is. Seriously!! A Froggit gives away how to spare Toriel, but all Chara does is ask if you can get through without fighting or running away.. Only AFTER you reload after killing her. After you've proven to Chara you're not interested in the Genocide plan.

Everywhere else, Chara only describes what the monsters are doing. Never once do they mention how to spare any of them-You have to figure that out yourself. Yes, Chara helps you dodge Aaron. That knolwedge is also useful if you want to win a fight against Aaron, it does not indicate intention of sparing. The only time they offer direct help regarding what to do.. Is on the Genocide Route.

"Froggit attacks you!"-Charrator

Yes, Chara said that, for the first Froggit. So, three possibilities:

1:Yes, Froggit attacked. They're hostile. Monsters aren't peaceful. They WANT TO KILL YOU. 2:Froggit meant no harm, but Chara was convinced he did, despite the fact that Chara was unaware of the rule against humans put in place after their own death, and clearly loved the Dreemurrs! 3:Chara was trying to trick you into thinking you were in danger, and wanted you to kill the Froggit.

2 got exposed as a nonsense, 1 means the Genocide Route might actually be justified, at least up until Papyrus' one-way fight, so Chara's judgement against it is null and void, and Chara's "corruption" makes no sense, since our first act of evil is AFTER Chara starts "turning evil" in late-ruins. We could genuinely say that we just wanted to defend ourselves, and then continued killing because Chara told us to!

Just because Chara wasn't necessarily evil pre-death (I have my own take on Chara here:https://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:151492 [pre-death is finished, but post-death isn't.. It's been dead for a while.]), doesn't mean they're an angel post-death. Things have changed since the death. Asriel was directly responsible for the death of both Chara and Asriel. Any love Chara had for Asriel vanished at that moment.

Then, Chara finds Toriel takes Frisk in as her new child, acting as if Chara never existed. It appears as though Toriel doesn't care about Chara.. That she just forgot them, abandoned them, ceased to care about them.

To say Chara would still love these monsters is quite the assumption there.

As I explained in my Anti-Villain Hypothesis thread (the link), Asriel was relunctant at first. It did take some convincing. And Chara was planning on killing far more than six. They hated humanity. They wanted to kill ALL OF humanity, not just six. They knew they'd have split-control, this is evident in the tapes (have you looked at the link yet?), and they wanted to do this TOGETHER. If Chara simply absorbed Asriel's Boss Monster SOUL, it's unknown what would have happened. Maybe Chara would gain magical abilities, and be just as powerful as Chasriel, maybe they wouldn't, because their body is still mostly physical matter, and a monster with a human SOUL is thus more powerful than the reverse, and thus, there was a good reason to have Chara do what they did. But ultimately, none of this matters, one thing is for certain- It would not have caused the humans to attack Chasriel, and thus would ruin Chara's attempt at bringing forth the SECOND half of their plan.

Killing 6 humans was the plan Chara directly told Chara. Chara knew that if they said directly, then and there to kill EVERYONE, Asriel wouldn't have accepted it. After all, he only reluctantly accepted the plan of six humans. So, they were going to set up a situation to make Asriel "come to his senses", in a sense. They were going to set up an attack. This is why they picked up their own dead body, and buried it into the flowers. Once they reached the Surface, they could have dropped the body there. Their excuse wish had done its job, and nobody would notice, because nobody could breach the Barrier. If the plan succeeded, everyone would know the true nature of the wish anyways, so nothing is lost. But instead, they brought it into the village, KNOWING this would attract the humans, and cause them to attack. They did it BECAUSE the humans would attack.

This would serve as a message to Asriel, about the nature of humanity. How clearly, they were innocent, yet the humans just tried to kill Chasriel, just like that. So, to protect themselves, they'd need to kill these humans. As Asriel states at the end of TP, if this happened, they'd need to wage war against ALL OF HUMANITY. Which was Chara's plan. No doubt they'd then give a message that things like this is why they hated humanity. They tried to answer the question Asriel wanted to know, by showing him directly. But Asriel didn't get the message.

--

I actually agree that Frisk is the one killing everyone. Well, ALMOST everyone. The idea that Chara took control and FORCED Frisk to kill everyone is just as ludicrous as you think it is. WE choose FIGHT. Just because Chara WANTS us to doesn't mean they MAKE us. They don't have the power to take control at all until LV19. (Yes, that includes the scenes where Frisk moves on their own to skip Papyrus' puzzles. That is FRISK. Just like Frisk holds Toriel's hand on their own. If we play evily, our character will do evil things in cutscenes! Natural, right?)

But, Sans, Asgore, and Flowey, were all Chara kills, for the simple fact that our kill count does not go up as a result of Sans. It doesn't go up because WE didn't kill Sans.

Pressing Z is something we must do to advance cutscenes. The same is true with Flowey's death:http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/145625412741/chara-kills-flowey-without-your-permission

The Soulless Pacifist IS Chara killing everyone. Chara possesses Frisk in the Stay With Toriel ending and laughs menacingly, and takes the place of Frisk in the photo, Xing out the monsters. If this was truly supposed to be Frisk, why do we see Chara?