Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180102064613

"No, we need to analyze the message itself, and THEN try to figure out what he meant. Otherwise you get a bunch of wild guesses like the case of Issac Asimov. Toby didn’t confirm what he meant, so we shouldn’t just be wildly speculating possible metaphorical meanings, we should analyze it scientifically."

We (you) already did that, that's why I said that. And besides, the message cannot have a literal meaning. After all, it's a phrase that doesn't even make any sense in the given context.

"That breaks the canon that the player’s not an (separate) entity. You know what my guess is? “Still just you, Frisk.”"

Eh, what do you mean? The game did all of that to MAKE you realize that Frisk is their own entity, not your pawn. And the player is not an entity at all.

"No, it’s supposed to make you realize that you didn’t NAME Frisk, and the child that fell wasn’t you, AND that you’re not actually playing in 201X."

That's what I meant -_-

"noticed the disrepency Temmie made (or maybe noticed that WE noticed it in the demo), and added Chara as a separate character after that to explain this"

It's the biggest spoiler in the game (maybe the second biggest one right after Flowey). It couldn't have been a mistake, he did it on purpose. And maybe you're right on the narrator. But if he changed something, he would have went back and fixed anything.

"It takes determination to get that flag."

You can say that pretty much about anything. Does it not require determination to get the other flags for example? Wait, you did say that. So then... what was the point of this argument?

"Perseverance is persevering to the very end, and, according to the purple flag, involves taking notes, so it’s also being analytical. Determination doesn’t do analysis, and it’s closer to self-preservation, aka “de-termination”."

As I said, that foreshadowed muffet's battle. Nothing indicates that purple can only appear in fights where little creatures announce you the next round.

"Yeah, but when you look up the definitions, of say, kindness, you’ll see how it makes no sense for them to be anything but a personality trait."

I don't see the problem. Out of all soul modes, this is the one where you're being kind to the soul. It can't move, so you at least protect it. Idk why do you have so much trouble understanding this simple concept.

"There is one thing in common for all of them. They represent an obstacle."

> For orange and blue, the ball isn't even mentioned.

<p style="font-weight:400;">...?

<p style="font-weight:400;">Also, for green, the ball is mentioned, but in that soul mode, you are the green one. So that gives us a clue as to what the ball represents in that case. Or we could just browse in the fields of speculation.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"There’s a difference between a character making a metaphor and the UNIVERSE making a metaphor."

<p style="font-weight:400;">What even... do you even THINK when you write? I'm talking about ASGORE, not the game.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Here, look up the definition of kindness."

<p style="font-weight:400;">I'm sorry, but no. That definition clearly contradicts what we observe in the game, therefore, we've applied the definition incorrectly. I keep telling you this. The green mode is kindness by definition, and you cannot change that in any way. Certainly not by being witty about it.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"You’re the one who said my reasoning can be applied to all the traits, and I did just that. For example, hopping around has nothing to do with strong moral principles."

<p style="font-weight:400;">And that's why it's wrong. Because you're clearly doing something wrong here. You're separating soul traits from soul modes. That's like separating Flowey and Asriel, they are the one and the same, just in a different skin.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"The definitions of the traits in a dictionary show they ARE personality traits."

<p style="font-weight:400;">No, that's your idea of what they are, just so that you could preserve their literal meaning, ignoring the fact that the soul modes are a direct representation of them - which in turn is proving that they cannot be personality traits.

<p style="font-weight:400;">You are breaking everything just to preserve your headcanon that these "traits" behave exactly the way they are described in a dictionary. Stop that.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"These “extra traits” can be defined simply by mixing from the seven traits already given"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Oh fuck off, that's the Glitchtale fanon. Read anything from this list instead:

<p style="font-weight:400;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trait_theory

<p style="font-weight:400;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16PF_Questionnaire

<p style="font-weight:400;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_five_model_of_personality

<p style="font-weight:400;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits

<p style="font-weight:400;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEXACO_model_of_personality_structure

<p style="font-weight:400;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_NEO_Personality_Inventory

<p style="font-weight:400;">"A quick look at the dictionary will prove they HAVE to be personality-related for their names to make sense."

<p style="font-weight:400;">They already do make sense. You are just looking at it incorrectly. Also, never forget to ask yourself, what would Toby do? Would he make it this complicated because of one tiny discrepancy? No, the issue lies in your theory.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Now, what if you going by against the stream and following your own path is being honest with YOURSELF, and doing what YOU think is right, instead of just following the herd like a sheep?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">It doesn't always apply. Only in those cases when the others are breaking moral principles en masse. So in the end it's still about staying 100% moral, not about being unique. That happens only in those selected cases.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"The very definition of kindness requires that it be to others, as I pointed out above."

<p style="font-weight:400;">Well then it can't really work if soul modes are always applied to your own soul, can it? So where is the problem? It works for colored (non-white) attacks, so why shouldn't the green mode be kindness, DESPITE being green? I dunno, but it seems to me like the problem is on your side. Maybe you're taking the definition of the traits too literally. I refuse to accept that green can sometimes be something else than kindness, since the game never implies anything like that. We should instead be aiming to explain how can the green mode actually represent kindness, since... well, it DOES represent it, we just haven't figured out the exact metaphor for it yet.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"We still move it to stop it from getting hurt."

<p style="font-weight:400;">I guess I forgot to say that right there, the soul is also immobile, ergo unable to dodge attacks without our help.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"When did I say I knew the game better than Toby Fox?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">I didn't say you said it. I said you think it. Because that's clearly how it looks like.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Oh, a connection! Let’s see.. You’re kind by protecting yourself, you uphold strong moral principles by being forced to hop around, you’re just by just shooting at everything, you’re whatever the red trait is just by MOVING and you’re persevering and taking notes just by hopping around a few webs. Wow, what a connection!"

<p style="font-weight:400;">It's not my fault that you're unable to grasp metaphors. And besides, the connection is there. Why else would he give the modes the exact colors of the traits? And also one more thing. Think about how he designed this game. First came the battle system. Then an explanation. He made the ball game as an explanation for the individual modes, not the other way around. Frankly, without anything else, the "personality traits" as you're calling them are meaningless. They only serve as an explanation for the game mechanics.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"You see my point?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">No, because this is Undertale, not the real world. That's another thing you keep forgetting.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"I already have a theory-But maybe there’s some flaws that I missed! Maybe you can start pointing them out so I can fix my theory!"

<p style="font-weight:400;">There isn't anything you missed. After all, you cannot get anything wrong when fabricating new info. You can't say it's wrong, since the game doesn't disprove it.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Yeah, like actual scientists do?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Scientists keep their paradoxes instead of resolving them? Lmao what? Can you even read?

<p style="font-weight:400;">"No, the guy above you assumed human essence didn’t exist because there was no book about it in a world of MONSTERS"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Ergo in the game,

<p style="font-weight:400;">"I’m one to argue no such holes exist"

<p style="font-weight:400;">because you know Toby Fox better than anyone else,

<p style="font-weight:400;">"so I’m much different than he is"

<p style="font-weight:400;">indeed, unlike him, you're actually basing your theories on pure fanon and then trying to prove them in any way possible, even at the cost of making stuff up. Sheesh, at least be honest.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"You’re actually closer to him, by tossing out evidence just to support a theory, claiming it’s just a mistake Toby made."

<p style="font-weight:400;">I'm not actually tossing anything out. I'm simply broadening the definition of the terms I come across so that they would align with the confirmed canon. You on the other hand are restricting them - creating paradoxes in the process, and then destroying the canon to resolve them. All because it fits your headcanon and because you're unable to grasp the concept of a metaphor. I keep wondering whether there's any point left in arguing with you. After all, you've proven yourself to be an incredibly dense person.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Good so far..."

<p style="font-weight:400;">I'm done with you. This is incredible. You're abandoning everything just because it doesn't fully fit. Do you realize it will never fully fit without us making stuff up? That's why fanon content exists. Because the original game isn't perfect. There is no "universal" explanation for it, as Toby never made one. He did what was necessary for you to have a good experience with the game, he never knew it would get so big and that people would dig so deeply into it. And that's why we keep finding all these flaws. Saying that this game contains no plot holes is the single most retarded thing you can say.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"When does the lore portray them as perfect reflections of the traits?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Okay, a small correction here: As I put it above, the trait descriptions describe the modes. Nothing extra is needed.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"They change the color of your SOUL to change your battle mechanics. Undyne turns you green so that you can’t run away, and to give you a shield to make things fairer."

<p style="font-weight:400;">And what do you THINK is the purpose of those trait descriptions then? Without soul modes and colored attacks, they're meaningless. And logically, having a color of your soul changed to a different one is the same as having that different one to begin with. We don't know if there's a difference, so it's best to assume that there isn't. YOU came up with the idea that green = being kind to others, not the game. YOU keep bringing up the dictionary, despite it CLEARLY contradicting the game in multiple ways (an example would be the word "soul" - in the game, it is portrayed as a magical object, but that's not its real world definition; just like the real world definition of kindness doesn't match the type of kindness we see in the game - not that it's not really kindness as you keep saying, it IS kindness, but you're just interpreting it incorrectly; it's given canonically that that's kindness).

<p style="font-weight:400;">Anyways, I said that a default and a modified soul behave exactly the same. But since you cannot just change a personality, then the color of a soul cannot represent your personality. Alternatively, if humans had magic, I would call these the magic types. Because that's really what these are. Except that for humans of course, they can only be projected as fighting styles, as they have no magic.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"What’s the conflict? I see no reason why we can’t just refute them all this way, and have no probem."

<p style="font-weight:400;">You really don't? Alright fine. We don't have a problem. But I personally see no reason to make this division. It can work normally, if you just broaden the definition. This division serves no practical purpose except for getting rid of the single discrepancy. What if you're wrong and I am right? We both know that they cannot be personality traits and at the same time relate to the soul modes. So do we keep the connection, whose existence is more than obvious, or do we keep the concept of a personality trait, which hasn't been confirmed by the game? (Using a dictionary as a proof doesn't work as I have showed you with the word "soul", besides, it's a weak argument.) I'll personally pick the latter.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Oh, I have great moral principles because I’m forced to jump around a lot!"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Which is exactly the reason why it cannot be related to personalities. It even prompted you to make a joke about it, that's how ridiculous it is! The fact is, that the connection is there, and it cannot be ignored. You are the one ignoring it. I am the one refuting your personality headcanon, because I refuse to do the other.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"WRONG! Either they’re the same thing or they aren’t. If they’re not a match, they can’t be the same thing."

<p style="font-weight:400;">You're building your entire church on this single axiom, not even realizing your foundations aren't even solid to begin with. This is Undertale. Made by a person who did not prioritize consistency in deep lore, although the lore is kind of deep, but only when you start thinking about it too much (in all honesty, I think we are overanalyzing things a bit, especially Gaster and Chara). The proof of this is all around you. When will you acknowledge that we're not solving the mysteries of the universe here, but just discussing a game? As I said a loooooooong time ago, we should be taking everything with a grain of salt.

<p style="font-weight:400;">And also, may I remind you that if we're not inherently trying to be creative, all theories that would assume the "death of the author" are probably wrong. Toby had a certain goal in mind, and a theory that doesn't live up to or follow that goal cannot be right. But that's just a side note. I am often using that to rule out certain arguments, such as that Sans's station teleports around, or that nothing except for Frisk is real within the UT universe.

<p style="font-weight:400;">And as a final word on this, these definitely cannot be personality traits. As those Wikipedia articles might have showed you, almost none of those traits listed there mach those in Undertale. Conclusion? They aren't personality traits. Or perhaps we're not dealing with the same "kind" of humans here, which I do not find plausible anyways. They must act the same as us, else how are we supposed to relate to Frisk and all these other human-like characters, if we cannot even understand how they're thinking? They must be like us for this to work. Ergo, they're human. So these cannot be personality traits.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"I’m doing this because if you look up the definitions of the six traits defined in the Red Flag, you get personality traits."

<p style="font-weight:400;">And you look up the definition of a soul. Conclusion? Souls cannot exist because the dictionary described them as an entirely different concept. Huh.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"I said fighting styles, not SOUL modes. They’re two different things. By “fighting styles”, I mean stuff like rushing in to obstacles, caring for your enemy, taking notes to overcome obstacles… The stuff mentioned in the Ball Game."

<p style="font-weight:400;">Does that change anything? You still have two categories here, personality traits with fighting styles, and soul modes (which I've described as fighting styles; you practically warped the definition of this phrase).

<p style="font-weight:400;">"The very definition of kindness proves it MUST be a personality trait! How is the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate NOT a personality trait?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">The psychological trait of kindness is a personality trait by definition, but a magical trait of kindness is not a personality trait.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Does this make sense?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Why yes it does. The only weird thing about it is that it's placing the person stating those sentences outside the known timespan of the universe. That's not weird from a linguistic point of view (I mean, you can craft any sentence, and it will be right, as long as the grammar is right), but it's wrong from a logical point of view. No one should be able to exist outside that timespan. If anything, this sounds like something some divine deity would say. And that's exactly what I think the ball game is. I mean, it was of course constructed by someone, but the meta meaning of it does have this quality of "predicting" the future. It's not just some meaningless game someone in the Snowdin forest made. It's flat out giving us all the necessary info to deduce stuff. I am seeing the same kind of continuity errors as with the plaques, or the story of Asriel and Chara. Every time Toby chose to dump a ton of lore in front of us, there was always some continuity error or a logical discrepancy.

<p style="font-weight:400;">And you keep saying there aren't any plot holes. Doesn't this rather prove that he wasn't all that careful with these 'info dumps'?

<p style="font-weight:400;">I chose to say that the in-game explanation for these is that it was just a coincidence. You chose to follow them literally and come to a conclusion that the monsters were lying in those plaques or something.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Listen. A mistake is a mistake. I chose to dismiss them. You chose to hold onto the paradoxes they create and come up with wild theories to resolve them. All because you think that that's the "correct" way to approach fictional story lines.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Would you also act like this in some other fandom, for example when analyzing the Game of Thrones lore, or the Star Wars lore, or the Lord of the Rings lore? If you say yes, then that will prove you're a moron. If you say no, then that will prove you are a fanatic.

<p style="font-weight:400;">In either case, I probably shouldn't be talking to you in the meantime. Not until you acknowledge that this game contains plot holes.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Anyways, the fact is, that the ball game is foreshadowing Muffet's battle. The movement on strings is given, but the one about taking notes, that is no longer a part of the purple soul mode, it's rather a mechanic of the battle itself, as I said.

<p style="font-weight:400;">And so, from an in-universe point of view, this could be taken as a coincidence, but from an out-univere POV, this is pure foreshadowing.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"No, it’s a reference to the fact that in order to get that flag, you have to struggle to get the ball in the hole."

<p style="font-weight:400;">Oh yeah, you're right. Still though, you aren't really "trapped", unlike in Muffet's battle. But that's all besides the point.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"If that’s the case, then that would make the green SOUL mode the exact same as the red one. No, it’s clear the shield, and everything that comes with it, is a part of that mode."

<p style="font-weight:400;">Anything that belongs to a soul mode is a part of that mode, that's obvious, isn't it? What did you think I meant by that? I said that the movement restriction came bundled with that, ergo, that this, as well as the shield, is a part of that soul mode. I said the exact same thing you said. Also... what the heck does the red mode have to do with anything here? Did you somehow get really confused all of sudden or something?

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Exactly. That’s my point-They don’t. That’s why the green mode can’t be kindness. But, at the same time, the green trait must be kindness! Now do you see why I separated them?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">If the green trait is kindness, then the green mode cannot be kindness. That's true. But the connection is there, therefore, the green mode must be kindness. However, for that to work, we must change the definition of kindness in Undertale. Just like Undertale changed the definition of a soul in its lore.

<p style="font-weight:400;">I am seeing a similarity with the relativity of spacetime here. Both are counterintuitive, but both work, since the concept that is being changed isn't constant (spacetime, kindness). Unlike what you may think, the definition of kindness can be broadened. You made the assumption that it must be a human-to-human characteristic. However, if we assume that it is a human-to-soul characteristic, then it works perfectly; you are kind to your soul. Not to yourself, but to your soul. That doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing.

<p style="font-weight:400;">You see, not much is known about the true nature of a soul, it would be foolish to presume that it is exactly you. Is it a culmination of your being, or can it be described as for example an extension of you? Well, since soulless creatures can exist, the answer is quite clear - a soul cannot be a culmination of one's being (else Flowey would have one too). It must therefore be something extra, a mere extension of your personality, but not something necessary. Caring for it therefore isn't exactly synonymous with caring for yourself. Souls have their own rules, they are very different from a human's body.

<p style="font-weight:400;">In fact, the only creatures for which the synonymity of caring for their soul and caring for themselves applies are monsters. Their souls truly are the culmination of their being. But the same probably doesn't apply to humans, nor to creatures that live only thanks to someone's essence (as they don't even have a soul to begin with).

<p style="font-weight:400;">Therefore, I'd argue that a human can care for their soul, and that this can be viewed as an act of kindness. They aren't caring for themselves, since their soul isn't necessarily them in the same sense that a monster soul is that monster for example.

<p style="font-weight:400;">And if we look up the definition of kindness (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/kindness), we can see that it doesn't specify that it must be a human-to-human characteristic. After all, you can be kind to your dog too.

<p style="font-weight:400;">So if being kind to your soul does make sense and it can work, then the green mode can represent kindness, since then you CAN say that you are caring for your soul, when you're shielding it from incoming attacks when it cannot move, as the soul isn't really "you", as I said above. It is merely a different "version" of "you".

<p style="font-weight:400;">Besides, a soul mode is only an indicator of what YOU have to do in order to succeed. It doesn't indicate that you are this and that, only what you SHOULD be at that moment. So yes, changing the mode doesn't change your personality, so soul modes have nothing to do with personality.

<p style="font-weight:400;">So then, are soul traits what you are, and soul modes what you should be at a given moment? Yes. But what are soul traits then? Well, using this logic, we can conclude that every human has some default fighting style, and that a soul mode only changes it. It doesn't change their personality, nor does it change their default fighting style. It only forces them to act differently.

<p style="font-weight:400;">However, at this point, we don't even need the personality. If soul modes are fighting styles, and soul traits are the default soul mode, then we come back to my original argument and say that soul traits aren't personality related, since it's not necessary.

<p style="font-weight:400;">The only thing left to explain is how the names of the individual traits relate to the soul modes. Well, cyan, orange, purple, green and yellow have all been explained already. Red doesn't even have an associated trait, so there's nothing to be explained and so, the only thing left is blue.

<p style="font-weight:400;">How exactly does hopping and twirling relate to integrity? Keep in mind that if we can answer this, we will find an explanation that unifies soul trait names and soul modes, eliminating the need to use the personality argument, which has no supporting arguments to it anyways.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Well, the cambridge dictionary mentioned the following:

<p style="font-weight:400;">"someone's high artistic standards or standards of doing their job, and that person's determination not to lower those standards"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Hmm. Could hopping and twirling be defined as such? I think it could. Surely hopping and twirling could be a metaphor for those morals, but here we have it written in a dictionary.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Also, here's a funny thought. Toby assigned the blue mode the trait of integrity BECAUSE of this definition. Heh I mean, the word "determination" is mentioned there, so... who knows really? owo

<p style="font-weight:400;">So... what else is left there to argue about? All the names of the traits fit their respective modes now. If you're still unsure about integrity, then let me put it differently: You refuse to stop hopping and twirling, even when the others think you're crazy. It's not really about being original, that's just a second characteristic that arises when no one else is doing the same.

<p style="font-weight:400;">So anyways, I just gave my theory a solid foundation. Please, disprove it and then put forward your proof that soul traits relate to the personality of a human. You already have a foundation (your dictionary argument), but you don't have the proof. I have a foundation now, and I don't need to present any proof, since my theory assumes the basic, that they are what they are - just the soul modes, but as a default. It is therefore supported by the game itself, the game itself is my proof. Where is proof of your own argument?

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Which raises its own problem, as that doesn’t fit with the definition of “kindness”."

<p style="font-weight:400;">It does now. owo

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Loophole-They can just not represent anything."

<p style="font-weight:400;">Represent nothing you say? I mean, sure, but without a proof for your theory that the traits represent personality, this argument isn't good for anything. My theory already works.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"You can (Take FNAF vs Bendy), but remember that my argument is that fighting styles are similar to traits, and fighting styles are not SOUL modes."

<p style="font-weight:400;">Did you define the phrase "fighting style?" No, you did not. When I say fighting style, I literally mean the soul modes. It's something you have to change when the mode changes. I mean, you don't have to, but you won't suceed if you don't. And in addition to that, each human has one as a default. One that they prefer. But they still have to change it when the mode of the battle changes in order to survive.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Because there’s only 7 personality traits?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Oh wow, how did you figure? Because those aren't humans? I'm actually pretty sure that humans have far more than just 7 personality traits. You are okay with bringing the USDA and the Celts into the story and at the same time claim that these humans aren't the same as us. Make up your mind already.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"You have no way of proving they are plot holes. Stop blaming the author every time your theory’s threatened. He worked on the game for YEARS."

<p style="font-weight:400;">Yes, he worked on the game for years, not on the story. It is only rational to assume that plot holes in the story are present. And I'm not blaming Toby literally every time that a theory that doesn't work, you know that very damn well. So stop assuming that this game is perfect. It is not. Toby Fox is not a god in real life. He is not the best game developer, he is not the best musician, he is not the best storyboarder, he simply isn't any of that. And besides, as I said, he never anticipated the popularity of this game, so that's another reason to think he probably didn't go as deep with the lore as you may think. As I said, if you have doubts, ask him about the said plot holes. Yeah, go right ahead. That should settle this argument. After all, who are we to speak for him, right? And besides, I already showed you that a logical discrepancy is present in every lore dump in the game, suggesting that he wasn't all that good with keeping them consistent with the canon story line.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"When the game’s story is what makes it stand out, lore facts are very important."

<p style="font-weight:400;">I don't think what we're debating here fits into that category. He made an interesting and clever story, but it isn't comparable to stuff like Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, or Game of Thrones. It's not that big, he wasn't aiming for that. Think about the message of this game. That's what it really is about.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Or just something theorists assume is a plot hole to defend their theory. Rafip did something similar, to say that Frisk isn’t a human. “Therefore, DT is soul power. There's no contradiction here, it fits, Occam's razor is happy, we can sing hippie songs happily.”"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Rafip said that since there's no proof of a human essence existing but proof of human souls persisting, Chara's soul must have persisted. And since Frisk apparently absorbed it by the looks of it, they cannot be human. Despite the appearance AND their soul.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Now you. Since there is no proof of Sans being able to duplicate stuff but proof of him teleporting around, it means that the stations found all around the underground that are all identical to one another cannot be the duplicates, but rather just a single one that he's constantly teleporting around. Despite the difficulties AND his notorious laziness.

<p style="font-weight:400;">See the resemblance? Both of you are bullshit talkers.

<p style="font-weight:400;">As for the thing about Asriel, I already defended that argument. Maybe you just forgot. There is no problem with the assumption that soul power is DT. Even though it's not necessary to make this assumption, it does simplify the overall lore, which is why I'm supportive of it. Essentially, because of Occam's razor.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"It’s that we can load in Asriel’s battle, but not in Omega Flowey’s. That’s what proves what our DT is."

<p style="font-weight:400;">We definitely do not load.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Actually, a Froggit couldn’t do that. They’d turn to dust right away. Only Undyne could, and that was also due to, you guessed it, determination."

<p style="font-weight:400;">???

<p style="font-weight:400;">Any monster can kill you if you refuse to defend yourself. As I said, a mere froggit could bring you below the 1 HP treshold, but only during Asriel's battle did your soul actually re-fuse. That only proves that our determination was at maximum (since there was no other instance of this in the game where we could do that), nothing else. Besides, convincing someone not to do something doesn't show you're more determined, that's not how DT works.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"You can have magic and not be able to represent yourself, personally, from it. Try forming a barrier-That’s not representing yourself, but you’re still using magic!"

<p style="font-weight:400;">So you're saying that they could summon powerful, millenia-lasting spells, but couldn't summon a single friendliness pellet for example? Just because some book used a verb that would suggest a shape-taking pattern? I'm pretty sure that an expression of oneself can refer to any kind of a magic spell. For example, this guy over here summons a powerful shapeless attack out of rage. He just expressed himself through magic, wouldn't you say? I mean, if you can say that this truly is about expressing oneself and not about having magic to begin with, then I can say that this expression applies to any magical attack, no matter its form. Heh, I mean, you aren't the one to impose rules around here, I can make up my own too. And if you don't like it, then retract your original argument.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Simple-They can only cast certain spells!"

<p style="font-weight:400;">Wow, my fanon detector is off the charts again!

<p style="font-weight:400;">"The intro? It flat-out SHOWES a human using magic, where it says “They sealed the monsters underground with a magic spell.”"

<p style="font-weight:400;">And who was there to take a photo of that moment, hmm? What makes you think that ancient legends are always 100% correct? No thanks, I'd rather believe what the monsters wrote about the war, that seven of their greatest magicians (didn't say that these were humans) sealed them. After all, the way the books in Snowdin talk about humans would make you think that they never had these abilities to begin with. Essentially, we have the intro against literally the entire rest of the lore. I'll side with the latter if you don't mind.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"True-There’s no reason why their magic should vanish. Really, the reason why we don’t have magic in Undertale is because we’re a kid who never learned yet. Or maybe there’s a special “Boss Human” (Asgore naming lol) that can use magic, just as Boss Monsters have extra DT."

<p style="font-weight:400;">It is said that they don't have magic. That's canon. And boss monsters don't necessarily have to have any extra DT. I mean, Undyne is pretty buffed, but no boss monster behaved the way she did. Plus, there is no mention of DT being involved with the entire soul persistence thing. I think it is clear that what's making boss monster souls persist cannot be DT. That would look a bit different. I mean, boss monster bodies are only a sum of their soul and some dust. If the body dies, then how can the soul persist, given they are the same thing? If one persists, the other one should have too.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"That both explains the barrier, and what Omega Flowey did, AND why humans can't represent themselves through magic, or, say, have a white SOUL."

<p style="font-weight:400;">It doesn't explain one thing. How are they supposed to not have magic? I mean sure, turning DT into magic explains the color, but it doesn't avoid the magic expression problem (casting magic, that is).

<p style="font-weight:400;">"How can I take a look at it if I don’t know where to find it?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">I think I already gave you the link to it before:

<p style="font-weight:400;">https://tsskyx.deviantart.com/art/WizardTale-Tsskyx-s-Undertale-AU-Introduction-656234842

<p style="font-weight:400;">If the humans never could use magic, but those magicians could, then they couldn't have been human. That is the basis of it. It works, since they were never described to be human, just that they were on the humans' side ("seven of their greatest magicians", not "seven of the greatest human magicians").

<p style="font-weight:400;">"There’s no such thing. If it’s in the game, it’s canon, as long as you can get there without hacking."

<p style="font-weight:400;">But this wasn't IN the game. The game closed. The world can't just "close". That's what games do. But we're not talking about a game here. You can't just go and give the UT world game-like properties. It's either that, or the other, not a weird amalgamation of both. This is the same as the discussion about whether the HUD is just a representation of the mechanics of that universe, or whether it is those mechanics literally. If you're already talking about some in-game universe, then at least stop thinking of it as a game. After all, Undertale can ONLY work as a game. You can't really turn it into a set story, because the entire point of it is to be interactive. The more of the game mechanics stuff we can remove while keeping it canon, the better. Remember our goal, we're trying to describe the inner story itself, not the game. And for that, knowing where the cutoff is is crucial. Saying that everything in the game is a part of that story is as bs as saying that for example the save mechanic isn't canon, since it's clearly a game property.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Alas, you have yet to explain the void that appears afterwards."

<p style="font-weight:400;">Perhaps it's the same area where the barrier normally is. You know, after it's gone, that room changes to the room with the small grass patch in the middle. It's most likely the same room. As for why that grass patch isn't visible when the barrier is there, I'd say lighting overexposure. After all, the barrier is pretty freakily bright.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"So Flowey can control the universe now?"

<p style="font-weight:400;">No, of course not. It's just an illusion. Just like that one amalgamate that's disguised as a save point.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Which is a part of the HUD-The only part that appears in the overworld."

<p style="font-weight:400;">What was the argument here again?

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Unless someone else told them."

<p style="font-weight:400;">And how did that someone learn about it then? We don't know if Frisk can see or feel us pressing the keyboard buttons. Probably not. So no, there's no way anyone in the game should be able to know about the "outside" world. No way. The game never implies anything like that happening. It is fully self-contained. You're probably thinking of Oneshot again.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"Exactly what they said-Four frogs."

<p style="font-weight:400;">They didn't know what it was. That was just their guess. Besides, they also mentioned a "full screen".

<p style="font-weight:400;">"There’s a possibility that “X” here is just whatever button Frisk presses to confirm an action via the HUD."

<p style="font-weight:400;">And what if I told you you can do stuff in real life without the usage of some imaginary buttons? If it isn't mentioned or implied in any way, then it most likely doesn't exist. Don't you think? And that essay, that was just Toby not giving two shits about it. It's that simple. Stop assuming that he never did anything lazy. I am free to blame him, because it's only rational in these cases. In any case, Frisk doesn't have a keyboard in front of themselves, we do. It's only rational to assume so. As I said above, know where the cutoff is.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Except it can be. My theories, when put together, attempt to make such an explanation. Haven’t run into any problems yet." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">If there was no problem with them, I wouldn't be arguing with you, don't you think? Besides, how do you plan to resolve a true, proper logical paradox with this kind of thinking? If it's clearly a factual mistake, you would rather flip the entire game upside down rather than acknowledge that it's just a mistake from Toby's side. And who sounds ridiculous now?

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Why would it imply that? Because it’s strictly mathematical like our own laws of physics?" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">No, because it looks like something created from code. And math can be used to describe anything, so it's not an argument.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Sans explicitly mentions turns and abuses it, so your explanation falters there. Turns must exist because they’re explicitly mentioned." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Ergo, the world is a game, which defeats the purpose of all discussions about it. As I said above, if we want to make a consistent explanation without simply pointing to the code and saying "that's what's going on", we must break some of these "facts". I'm not saying we should get rid of them. I mean, if they're already there, the least we can do is to find an alternative explanation for them.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I have an explanation for any text that implies a player without actually changing it." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Whatcha mean? I never changed anything either.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">That’s how Sans knows it exists, for the reason you just said. It’s invisible, but its effects can be noticed, because they’re still effects, and as you said, they’re not that dumb." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> No I mean, if they're confined to turns and if the humans deal attacks out of fucking nowhere as you're saying, then the question should have popped into their heads a long time ago.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Or, we can say it DOES exist this way, but they were also able to figure out it wasn’t a game, because canonically, it’s not." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">"It can have a HUD and not be a game." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> That's a contradiction. That's like saying you aren't gay for liking a woman with male genitals: https://webmshare.com/3XGrj

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Just stop it, okay? Either the world is a simulation, or it isn't and there are no buttons. You can't have a universe with buttons. If anything, if such universe were to exist, the simpler explanation WOULD be that it is a game. Since how do you plan to explain all of this without using a single line of code to describe it? Using metric tons of math? Sure. You go with the more complicated explanation. I'll stick to the simpler one. As per usual.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> " <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Their name is even flat-out stated in the final speech, and not your own name <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Toby knew that many players often choose their own name when naming the protagonist. It's what everyone is used to. He even stated it in a tweet that people should just name the protagonist after themselves. So it wouldn't be all that weird if he somewhere down the road tried to address the player directly using this name. And this was exactly that. Besides, as I said, there's no way Flowey could have learned that Chara was alive. If yes, it had to be somewhere between us speaking to Asriel for the last time (where he still didn't know that Chara was present inside of Frisk by the looks of it), and him already talking to them when we reopen the game.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> How though? That is the true mystery. Which is why I think he never did, meaning, he could have never known that Chara was alive, meaning, he couldn't have been speaking to them, meaning, that that monologue truly was meant for the player only. Simple elimination of possibilities.

<p style="font-weight:400;">'' " <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So, where did he GET the file from? You know, the file that shows a black void?" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">It's his save, his world. For what we know, he could have simply just teleported us to some dark cave or something. Or maybe none of that really happened, as Toby did it for an effect only.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Anyone has potential to get EXP."

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Depends on how you take it. And besides, I've just realized, EXP and LV don't describe the same thing. EXP directly relates to the murders you've commited, while LV is the potential indicator. So for example, growing up in a rough family would increase violent tendencies in a child, ergo, increase their LV. Violent propaganda would also most likely increase it.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So, what was used as evidence to prove that the other humans could save and load? Humans not being able to save and load on the surface" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The evidence used to prove that the 6 children could save and load in the underground was the following:

<p style="font-weight:400;"> http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/141805499420/all-fallen-humans-could-save-and-reload

<p style="font-weight:400;"> And this was in turn used to prove that they didn't have these powers on the surface. Not the other way around.

<p style="font-weight:400;">'' " <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Who said it was the exact same feeling? Why can’t it be similar to Flowey thinking he already met you, that you’re Chara?" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Because she's not ignorant, unlike Flowey. You're completely twisting her character.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">May I recapitulate it to you, since you yourself are that ignorant?

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">After we Reset, many characters get "the feeling" - the feeling of familiarity with Frisk, recalling their friendship with them. This includes Toriel, who not only feels familiar with Frisk, but also guesses their choice correctly every time. This is evidence that memories can leak across timelines, and that close friends are the ones the most affected.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Now, Toriel says that she gets this "feeling" with (probably every) human that falls down. She expresses how she already felt familiar with them when she first saw them. Not that they remind her of someone. If anything, she says that about Frisk: "Truthfully, when I first saw you, I felt... like I was seeing an old friend for the first time."

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">While about the other humans, she says this: "When humans fall down here, strangely... I... I often feel like I already know them."

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Due to the other characters saying the same about Frisk that Toriel says about them, we already know that this feeling she's getting with Frisk must be because of the timelines leaking, not because of Chara. So if anything, she feels familiar with the other humans, but recognizes Frisk as an old friend. So your argument with an old friend about the other humans is unsupported. She recognizes them, but recognizes Frisk as an old friend specifically. And that's assuming these two don't mean the same thing.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> But wait, there's more. Chara wasn't just a friend to her, they were her child. She's already filling this hole up with the maternal care for the other humans. Taking care of them fits this more, rather than the feeling of them being her friends. You don't call your child your "friend", even though it's technically true. So all in all, she couldn't have felt like they or Frisk are her friends because of Chara. It just doesn't seem plausible.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> But wait, there's still more!

<p style="font-weight:400;"> " <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I felt... like I was seeing an old friend for the first time."

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">She felt as if she was seeing an old friend, for the FIRST time. This is of an utmost importance. She didn't just feel as if she was seeing an old friend, she explicitly found it weird that she felt familiar with them, despite seeing them for the first time. Not that they reminded her of someone. She openly acknowledged that something is up. Else she wouldn't have used the phrase "for the first time", she would have rather used something like "again", e.g.: "seeing an old friend again." And the fact that this sentence connects to the previous one (this one:  <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">"When humans fall down here, strangely... I... I often feel like I already know them."), is an undeniable proof that she's talking about the same thing here.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">After all, why would she first start a conversation by guessing Frisk's choice, then trail off to talk about the other humans, and then come back and continue talking about Frisk? Surely that last sentence where she talks about Frisk connects to the first one - her correct guess prompted her to state that she quote and quote recognizes an old friend in Frisk. But the one about the other humans in between these two sentences isn't just an unrelated note. After all, as I orated, why would she include it in the conversation if it wasn't related to it? She isn't like, senile or anything. And the fact that she began the third sentence with the word "truthfully" also suggests a concurrence with the second sentence. As if she was acknowledging that what she observed about the other humans also applies to Frisk.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">And lastly, we DEFINITELY know that all three of these sentences relate to the same subject, since if you answer no, she says nothing. The yes answer is the prompt.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So all in all, it is the fact that she mentions the humans and Frisk in the same context, or rather, the lack of evidence that the context differed, that she was talking about the same thing, implying that the humans had the same powers as Frisk.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Do you believe it now? Or do I have to try again?

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Or, she projects Chara ONTO them." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Definitely, that's why she was taking care of them. As I said, she wanted to fill that hole in her heart, and also to protect them from Asgore. But this definitely wasn't the reason why she felt familiar with them since the very first moment she saw them. That would be an exceptionally weird way to formulate the thought that they reminded her of Chara.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Yeah, they would. They need the SOUL, after all." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Yeah. After their death. There is proof that they had deadly traps, meaning that they wouldn't have to engage in a battle to kill them. Recall the firey flames that Mettaton sent at Frisk in the dungeon, or Papyrus's final puzzle (which looked more like a meat grinder if anything).

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The impassible barriers couldn’t be passed by monsters either" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Oh my god then perhaps don't make them impossible to turn off??? EH!?!?

<p style="font-weight:400;">Seriously, do you have no imagination at all?

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">That’s assuming DT is SOUL power. It isn’t. Even if it was, remember that Asriel absorbed all the SOULs, and could have used his own and the amalgamates, so the barrier would break just fine. <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"> So what is soul power then according to you? If it isn't a trait on its own, but an overall power of the soul as we've both agreed, then what contributes to it? I see a correlation with DT here, so instead of assuming the existence of some new unknown trait, I'll rather hold onto the connection. After all, it poses no paradoxes. And what you said about Asriel, that's exactly what he did. What even is your point?

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">There’s four amalgamtes"

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">No, there's at least 10. Five encounters, 4 that approach Frisk (who look nothing like those encounters), and one that tucks Frisk into bed, who could also possibly be the one behind the curtain of the bathtub.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Except for the Asriel part, which you conveniently fail to account for here, so I used your other reply just so I’d have SOMETHING from you to work with." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Haha, as I said, I've successfully refuted it all, and you refused to acknowledge that. Please, feel free to reiterate your arguments at any time. Because I forgot them already.

<p style="font-weight:400;">'' " <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Sure you didn’t get the roles backwards?" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> You seem to forget what is a part of the in-game story and what isn't. It can't all be included in it. It simply doesn't work. You're the one trying to push a cube through a triangular hole here.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">That can each be divided into the seven we all know." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Oh yes. Toby is a psychology expert now according to you.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">How about trying to trick your opponent to then catch them off-guard?" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Pretty sure that's patience. Being one way at first, and then striking. It can be thought of as a metaphor essentially. And don't say that you aren't eating this. I can say the same about you trying to condense hundreds of traits into just 7.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">He said he found AN anomaly. So he’s implying there’s only one." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Because he was talking only about that one. It doesn't prove that it was the only one. No, really, shut it, it doesn't prove it. You can't talk your way around this.