Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20180104155430/@comment-32182236-20181006202837

"Yep!"

...And robbing random NPC's houses..

"Not if he fuses with 7 Human souls, at that point he's Thanos and can wipe out humanity with the snap of fingers. Not much of a war.  Collective humanity: Ugh, I don't feel so good. *polygons into nothing* "

So you think destruction of humanity is better than imprisonment of the monsters? That's clearly unjustified favoritism towards the monsters. I can understand why Chara would want this, but Asgore? Come on. (Also, Chara wanting this doesn't mean they're JUSTIFIED in wanting it.)

"(Here's a cool fanmade idea for a God Asgore theme) https://soundcloud.com/toby_fox/genocide-asgore-preview "

I say that better fits a Chara fight, as it mainly uses "Once Upon a Time".

"He said "Don't kill, and don't be killed" before that, yes. You can do it Pokemon style by weakening them and then giving them Mercy or running. Though the only boss this applies to is Asgore."

You could argue it applies to Undyne too, if you're willing to consider making her overheat from the hot weather as weakening her.

"Oh, monster propaganda, eh? Wonder who's been spreading it?"

"History books and passed down experience mostly. But Asgore and the Royal Guard after the demise of the children played their part."

Either way, how long until this becomes Soviet Union level of propaganda? Or have we already reached that point?

"What events afterward?"

When the monsters meet the humans and another war inevitably breaks about because some random monster decided it would be a good idea to absorb a SOUL and try to take over the world.

I can see it right now.


 * Long ago, two races ruled over the earth:HUMANS and MONSTERS.| *insert picture from the True Pacifist credits here*

Well, you know what's next in the script, right?


 * One day, war broke out between the two races.| *insert a photo of war with current modern-day tanks, bombs.. All of that stuff.*

"Of course she is. Even though THEY attacked ME first. And in Genocide, she even thinks I'm going to destroy humanity as well! Undyne, I think you got the wrong person. Chara hates humans, I (in my Genocide Frisk persona) hate MONSTERS!"

"Well it's a classic case of dehumanization... (Demonsterization?) Undyne hates Humanity as a species, as a race, collective humanity, individuals be damned, they're all the same! That kind of thinking."

Yes, just like Frisk in this take on Genocide! Undying, am I looking into a mirror right now?

"Humans in general are dangerous to her, so she goes in spears blazing."

Monsters in general are dangerous to me, so I go in knives blazing!

"And with her job being to collect Souls for Asgore to free everyone, well, as she put it, "Your continued existance is a crime! If you really want to help us, die! (paraphrased)" "

I don't want to help you guys anymore, not after you just straight-up attack me like that. THIS. IS. WAR!!!

"Well that's mainly because you're a psycopath, so who's to say your murdering spree would end with Monsters?"

..Eh, only as much as your typical RPG hero is. And if you mean me, the player, outside of the game, remember, Undertale looks like an RPG at the very start. So you'd play it as a normal RPG at first. Level grinding, all of that stuff.

"(Though she doesn't reallly understand that there is a biological reason why this child can kill Monsters with ease, simply by not caring enough. Again, on the surface, with humans, they'd just be a baby with a guardening tool.")

Right, it takes Chara's powers to destroy the world. Frisk's powers is next to nothing compared to that. Charisk's, on the other hand.. (What happens when Chara takes over in Soulless Pacifist..) "And while yes, Chara hates Humans they don't really care about going after them, in the end they destroy the world *in general*, consuming this Timeline with their DT, as they own the SAVE file and can Stop or Start alternate timelines."

Yes, they do that. This destroys the humans as well, but it was really the first step towards getting your SOUL.

"No, that's Armored lol. I meant weapons."

Oh, lol. Well they're stuck with bullet patterns instead.

"THAT'S RIGHT PUNK!! HERE AND NOW! LET'S END THIS! With every Monster's hopes and dreams I CAN'T LOSE!!!! NGAHHHH!"

YEAH, LET'S END THIS!!! I won't let you destroy all of humanity, I'll take you down first!! With all the humans counting on me, I CAN'T LOSE!! Because I'm determined to STRIKE YOU DOWN!!!! NGGAAAH!!!!

FIGHT->Undyne *SLASH*

"Indeed, that kind of thing is the source of all conflict, two sides, both think they're the good guys, they refuse to compromise, think about that next time you hear about conflict anywhere in the world."

I side with the humans. They're the good guys. And the Barrier is the best compromise there is.

"Well not Genocide, Genocide is Psycopathy, self defense would be the just Sans neutral ending."

It's not just defending myself against the monsters. It's clearing the whole area, so that no monsters remain to breach to the Surface and destroy humanity. Remember, humans and monsters are opposing sides, and I'm a human. So, which side would be natural to take? "Under normal circumstances there is no way you would encounter an entire room's worth of Monsters if you're just passing through. Only by Grinding can Genocide be done."

Of course, why do you think I climbed the mountain in the first place if I didn't want to meet the monsters?

"The reason was paranoia.  Monsters had no such intention at the time.  But now...."

At the LATEST, they had this intention ever since Chasriel breached the Surface world.

"Yes, but I'm talking from the perspective of a sympathetic Pacifist.   It's still pretty bad, one has to see she's trying to protect the Monsters."

No, she wants to free them, not protect them. They're safe Underground. We're not if the monsters invade and Undyne keeps her plan of destroying humanity. She's clearly the bad guy in this situation. Who said Frisk was a sympathetic pacifist?

Of course, a better question we might want to ask is why we're worried about this in the first place when we can just reload if it DID go wrong.

"Yep! In pacifist anyways.."

Right..

"Try talking it out? Though it's highly unlikely a single Monster could beat a Human on their guard."

They'd fight an obviously weak and helpless human. Also, go ahead, talk it out with this evil monster. See how that works out. While you're at it, see what happens if you try to "talk it out" with someone like Adolf Hitler.

"Also, I have to wonder if this fear was unfounded for another reason, as we saw with Flowey, the SOULs can revolt if they disagree. It's a partnership. It seems like a SOUL fusion has never happened before Asriel and Chara and was always a question of "They *could* do this, they *could* do that." Never putting this into consideration."

Asriel and Chara both worked together to try to kill six humans. Chara may have wanted to kill all of humanity, and Chara could have if they wanted to. Sure, the human might not agree with it, but maybe this monster can find a human who's willing to participate in this plan, and do what Chara and Asriel did, but this time, pushing it over to kill the rest of humanity.

"We see this in Waterfall, everyone assumes Asriel had total control over Chara's SOUL, since he absorbed it, even Flowey did (foolishly) when he absorbed the 6 Human Souls. "You're supposed to obey me!" but Asriel breaks the news that Chara and Asriel had shared control over the fusion-body."

So the humans and monsters didn't know this? They'll learn after a while.. Until then, the few evil ones that exist will try to absorb the SOULs of helpless humans.

"And the same can be seen with Flowey as there are intervals where the SOUL takes a turn fighting you, as seen with those static pauses. And even the music, the main melody is Your Best Nightmare, but it is interrupted by Static, Alarm sounds, and a little intermission where the SOUL fights you, with unique instrumentation for each one. They were working with Flowey, so they use the Your Best Friend tune, but after you call for Help they stop and the music becomes calm and serene and slowly but surely they stop taking their turns and sabotage Flowey."

Actually, it's the SOULs under the complete control of Flowey. Your determination is enough to set them free.

"First by lowering their defense, and then by disrupting the Fusion altogether."

Yep.

"This is even true for Asriel's fight, calling out to your Friends makes them take a turn fighting. But It seems that in this case, Asriel was able to manipulate them, turning them into Lost Souls. But this was in order to make them want to fight you, supressing the memories of friendship and turning them into their pre-you selves, but even so, he still had no control over their ability to appear. (It also gives an interesting insight into their motives, regrets, and characters.) Toriel: "This for your own good. No one will leave again" Sans: "just give up. i did. why even try? you'll never see 'em again" Papyrus: " I MUST CAPTURE A HUMAN, THEN EVERYONE WILL-. . . " Undyne: "You're our real enemy. All Humans will die!" Alphys: "You hate me, don't you? All I do is hurt people.." Asgore: "Forgive me for this. This is my duty..." But you remind them!   Toriel: Our fate is up to you now! Sans: nah, i'm rootin' for ya kid. Papyrus: WAIT, YOU ARE MY FRIEND! I COULD NEVER CAPTURE YOU! Undyne: Well, some humans are OK, I guess!  Alphys: That's not true! My friends like me! And I like you too!"

And yet, they do nothing to try to stop Asriel. Why not?

"You can feel their Souls resonating within the Fused Soul, which is why honestly why I think, even if Chara hadn't reminded you to Save Asriel his plan would fail like before. "The souls?! What are they doing?! NO! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO OBEY ME! STOP IT!"

We never get a chance to save the human SOULs this time. I wonder why?

"You've gotta pont. Well, if this was the Undertale YELLOW fangame, Undertale's story is "You control a lost child trapped underground", it's not about Justice. It's simply about making it out alive. But then again, said child finds they get stronger with each kill so, yeah.  You're right. It would become RPG hero mentality."

Yep. And that's my point.

"Still should take time to consider their misery. And Undertale has plenty of guilt trip scenes for that purpose."

..Where? All I see is the "villains" claiming that they're the "good guys" after all. There are MANY RPGs and stories where the villains say they're the good guys. Just because they say it doesn't make it true.

"Not really, remember that metaphor involves your choices speifically making that RPG character a demon. Link won't rob houses of their Rupees if you don't make him!"

Yes, but he WILL kill enemies because there's no other choice. And not killing them is very un-RPG like.

"A Character cannot move on it's own! That is the metaphor of Chara's character arc and backstory. Chara's search to see if Asriel was right by letting you teach them what is right and what to do is a metaphor for how a Character doesn't do anything on their own."

Actually, there are many cutscenes where they do in fact do things on their own, and you're forced to adapt the classical RPG hero archetype. Undertale might just be the first ever TRUE "roleplaying" video game. (Video games. D&D beat Undertale to THAT concept a LOOONG time ago.)

"I'm talking about an Innate moral compass. Flowey did what's right first because he had been taught to do what is right, but when he got curious of what would happen if he did what's wrong, there was nothing to stop him. He got guilty but he was capable of continuing. And sure enough, the guilt went away after a while."

The same is the case for us too, though isn't it? =]

"Flowey corrupted himself. His own curiosities and lack of inhibition did."

We also corrupted ourselves.

"At first, Chara didn't need to trust Frisk, just see what they would do. They looked to Frisk's actions for an answer to their question of who was right back there when those Humans attacked. Chara never needed to know them personally, and in fact Chara never reveals themself in Pacifist."

If we attack, all that proves to Chara is that humans attack. Just like they always did. Why don't they just call us one of THEM, since we basically ARE one of them at this point?

"*Chara: "You can do it, I believe in you!"
 * You: "Who are you."
 * Chara: "...N-None of your beeswax!"
 * You: "Okay?...What's wrong don't you trust me?"
 * Chara: "I haven't even known you for a day! Now go save my BFF!"
 * You:" Fair point, headvoice! Let's save goatboi!" "

Now, in the new Genocide Package!


 * Chara:You can kill them, I believe in you!
 * Frisk:So, who are you?
 * Chara:None of your beeswax!
 * Frisk:Okay…? What's wrong, don't you trust me?
 * Chara:I haven't even known you for a day! Now go kill everyone like you taught me it was right to do!
 * Frisk:..So you took that message to heart? ..So do you trust me or not?
 * Chara:...
 * Frisk:Come on, which is it?
 * Chara:..That's not important right now! Just continue the mission!

"Now, in Genocide, Chara reveals themself "It's me, Chara", and gains trust in us, this is because in order to cope with the knowledge that Asriel was wrong they begin to project their lost friendship onto us."

Hm, you say they trust you enough to get corrupted as early as late Ruins, though. So are they corrupted at Late Ruins (When they first urge you to kill), only at the end of the Genocide Route (when they actually flat-out call you a partner and thank you), or not at all (because they supposedly snap at you for killing everyone and punish you for it)? Which is it? "But again, at first they don't trust us, at first they're turned to the darkside by watching us, *then* they start to cozy up like Chara: "Hey howya doin' I'm Chara, and I think we should be friends! While I normally wouldn't approve of what you're doing, watching you kill those enemies of yours instead of getting yourself killed by bistowing Mercy on killers like these, -unlike somebody I used to think was my friend-, makes me think I'd like to join you and you'd be a way better friend, you've got some sort of mission right? One you'd never betray for any reason? I'll help you complete it! Let's show, Asri-, I mean those Monsters how a real partnership works!"

Yeah, let's do it, Chara! Let's show these guys who attacked first some justice! And let's complete our mission to erase the entire Underground!

-

Chara:Alright, congratulations, you killed everyone in the Underground! We did it together, and this went well! Now, let's destroy the world!

Frisk:Chara, that was never the plan, I only wanted to kill those killers, not innocent humans, so I'll have to say-

Chara:Since when were YOU the one in control?! You don't get a say in this, I am the master!


 * SLASH*

"Chara's like: "You're the kind of friend I wish I always had, commited! A good partner!"" And you're just like, "yeah, thanks" and then in the end Chara's like "We did it best buddy! We're all done here, gonna go somegame else?  Let's do it!  BFFs forever! I'll always be there to give you a Heads Up Display!"

Alright, opening up my game, and.. Chara! You said you'd be there!! Where are you, Chara? WHERE ARE YOU?

.*silence*

Chara? Chara?! CHARA!!!!

[Mission Failed.]

"And then you're like "Hey screw that and you, I want this old game back, I'm not done playing with it!"  And Chara's like "!!... Y- you......you betray me......     ...    You mean this wasn't a mission, you just wanted to do this because you could?"

Oh no, this was a mission alright. I just want YOU to show me the way to the next world. I want you to keep on giving me narration, keep on giving me hints on killing everyone, keep doing what you did before. Guide me, partner. I can only see you in THIS game, and I want to directly speak to YOU.

Don't you know? You never split the party! Demons at the HUD (or stats) to keep those fighters (the player) hale and hearty! The wizard (Chara) in the boxes, where he can give some tips, and you never let the kills left out of sight...

Also, since they take Frisk's SOUL and say it's ours, that means we're Frisk. And we don't play as Frisk in all of those other games. I also want to keep playing as Frisk. Chara, I said I wanted to move onto the next, with you, not let the next genocider move onto the next, without you.

---Alternatively, if I had instead said no to erasing the world...---

Look, I was trying to kill all the monsters, not just wipe out humanity too! I wanted to be the hero, to protect humanity from the threat of monsters, not kill them all! Chara, how could you?

".   .   .   WELL SORRY "PAL", THINGS DON'T WORK THIS WAY! ACTIONS HAVE CONCEQUENCES! SCREW YOU TOO!" "

How is me killing the monsters supposed to result in the humans being destroyed too? Chara, you're getting this all wrong! So sorry, it's screw YOU!

"Then you come back and after a while Chara's like: "What's the matter? Lookin' for your little toyland? Why? You're the one who broke it dummy."

No, YOU broke it. I just took out those troublesome monsters in there.

"But of course you don't get it, you think you can do whatever you want, no problems, huh?" You: "..Yesss?"

Yeah, of course I can! If I have the power to SAVE, I really can do that! Just undo everything, and vuila, everything's back to- *LOAD failed.* Wait. What's happening? *LOAD failed.* *LOAD failed. *LOAD failed.* Chara, what did you do? ..CHARA!!!!

"Chara: "Hah, That's right. ... How about we make a deal, give me something and I'll give you your game!" You: "Anything!" Chara: "So you'll give me your SOUL!" You: "....Yes yes, I'll do it!"  Chara: .... Then it is done! Happy gaming!"

No, screw you, Chara, I'm not giving that away! YOU destroyed the world, I don't have to pay for what YOU did. Now are you going to come WITH me to the next world, are you going to just stay in the void instead and abandon me again?

"One pacifist later.... You: Wow, looks like nothing changed after doing a that Genocide, at least I still get to enjoy my fav ending  Chara: THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK! *gives you the metaphorical bird by killing everyone* Remember our deal? Punishment time! "

Oh, THAT'S what you wanted it for? I thought you were going to do something good with it, not kill everyone anyway. So, killing people is ACTUALLY fine...? Sure. I'm glad we agree on the value of a life. I've learned SO MUCH from you, Chara. You can stop telling me to do a pacifist now.

"Or: One genocide later.... Chara: Hi, It's me, your Character, the demon that comes when you give it a name! That feeling you get when you Level me up sure is great huh?  But... That's not what you want is it?  No, you just want to mess with us.  Just remember, you did this to yourself!"

Chara, look. I wanted more power. If you're not going to take me to the next world, I might as will just keep destroying this one for power. "In a way, it is like your theory, with the added detail that Chara only thinks this IF you show them Asriel was wrong by killing (not enough, tho, they'll just be depressed) AND then turn them into a sadistic killer/your BFF by showing them a full on genocide."

No, we COMPLETELY disagree on what the SOUL deal is supposed to be.

"Again, at first Chara's neutral like Chara: " Hey wha? I'm ALIVE! ...Man.. What is life? Is it kill or be killed? Like I thought? Or Spare or be spared? Like he thought..."

First, it's Spare AND be spared, not Spare OR be spared. Second, Chara, what happened? Why did you doubt yourself? Shouldn't the fact that Asriel's thinking got the both of you killed only FURTHER reinforce your original belief? Flowey even says this at the very start, so it seems you finally taught Asriel!

"Hey look a humanperson, I hate those things! ... But hey, they've never seen Monsters before, and the Monsters will try to kill them... maybe...maybe they can show me!"

Yeah, they'll show you the WRONG answer, alright. They'll show you how THEY are like. Also, Chara doesn't know about the war that was declared while they were dead for this long. You: *is under attack* Chara: "Hey you!"

"You: "Who, Me?" Chara: " Yeah You! Look at that enemy guy over there! Will you Spare or will you Fight?" You: "Hmm..." Chara: "Consider this: He's had it rough! Well?" You: Hmm....Y'know headvoice, I think I'm gonna fight! (I did what you said, SUoveranalyzer!)"

By the way, they only say that life is rough if you check them, that is-NOT fight them, and waste a turn. I think I'll just strike on Turn 1 like the other humans did. ...What, did you think I'd be any different than the rest of them?

"They REALLY start supporting you tho, when you fight Toriel, like,  Chara: Hey look it's my Mo-nster! ...A Different Monster! She's not going to be like the others, can you show Mercy without Fighting or Running away? Oh, BTW, she knows best for you, she's the best most responsible Mommy ever YOU HEAR ME?!"

Yeah, no hints whatsoever. Even though a Froggit literally spells out the answer. Did you even READ my other three posts? Are you still going to respond to them? Your post doesn't go over all the information I've given you in those three posts.

"You: "Okay!?.... Hmm... "  Chara:" *watches anxiously* This'll really prove who's right! Did my goatbro betray me?"

Let's see, she can't spare me, and.. Chara? A little hint here?

Chara:....

She's supposedly your MOTHER, based on your description of how you know she apparently knows best for me, so how can you not have ANY idea on what I should do, partner?

Chara:No hints for you! Give up?

Yes, I give up! *FIGHT*

(Meanwhile in genocide it's like, Chara: "She's not worth talking to, bestbuddy, she never let us Kids get a say in things! Knows best for you, BAH!" )"

So much for a final examination to see for sure who's right. Yes I do argue that, why do you assume the Floweytale genocide run took more than a day to complete?"

It didn't take longer than that to complete, it took longer than that to START. Probably around a few months.

"And the player can go from loving these characters to learning to kill them in a day, just watch any Undertale full stream of all runs. Undertale's a short game after all."

Yeah, that's because we treat the game as just that-A game. We never truly cared about them, they were just our playthings. We didn't befriend them because we CARED, we befriended them because we wanted the good ending.

"No it wasn't, Chara was unsure of this, they needed an example from which to draw a conclusion."

They had an example, the time they both died.

"They needed proof that Asriel was right or wrong. And they get it from our actions. It isn't that Chara likes humans, I'm sure they'd choose a Monster if given a choice but they were not, seems they could only sync with a Human soul (probably due to the DT which brought them back) and specifically one of a similar color. Why? IDK, but there is a mechanic in the universe called "Synchronicity" alluded to by Clam Girl."

My point isn't that they could have chosen anybody else. My point is they have no reason to have a guide. No guide is probably preferable to a human who just LOVES doing the wrong thing all the time. We might just be like the "tester" (us, the player) from "Dude, Stop". (Yes, there's a game with that name.) If they see us killing, all that should prove is that humans haven't changed from the last time Chara has seen humans.

"This theory being how Undertale's world works can explain why the Determination of a SOUL can influence physical Space-Time and create Timelines, What Sans wants to stop, or why Monsters(Paranormal beings) and Humans(Physical beings) are polar opposites (even have opposite looking Souls) but can combine into perfect beings, as Synchronicity talks about a perfect oneness between the Paranormal and Physical."

All I saw about those theories was that they believe that coincidences are the result of a mystical, meaningful connection between the two, not that time can literally be restarted. Not only that, Flowey really complicates this idea of it being the reason for SOUL absorptions, as he can absorb both of them. It really seems to be that a species/race simply cannot absorb another one of its own kind. But Flowey can absorb six human SOULs, which are now combined together, with him. Asriel can do the same with ALL the monsters, but now that he has become a monster himself, he can't hold onto those SOULs much longer. This is likely the reason why we were able to get the monsters freed a lot easier than we could have freed the humans. "Synchronicity relates to the Universe having purpose, a fate in store for you, when it does things, that it isn't random and is trying to make things perfect. It can explain why Asriel and Chara were revived in the first place. As no matter which route you take, their "unfinished business" is dealt with. Heck you, the Chara look-alike, Frisk, even help Chara complete their mission of being the Future of Humans and Monsters despite their death, the Universe, fate, just decides to add in those Souls to make it easier for this Chara reencarnation to do so, which is why you're the 8th Human."

In Genocide, Chara is most definitely NOT the future of humans and monsters.

"And even in genocide, we help Asriel get his sense of Mercy back, when he decides it's a better idea to bail on genocide as Flowey. (Must have pissed Chara off, thinking about it. "Oh, again, huh?")"

Oh yeah, it most certainly did. Played a big role as to why they made Flowey suffer as they made their final kill, rather than just one-shotting him, which is possible to do at this point. (We, Frisk, can even do that in Neutral after the SOULs revolt, and Flowey had been restored to full health at this point.)

"Clam Girl knows this is how the Undertale Universe works. "Not knowing where I live is no issue, fate finds a way."  This is the line before she tells you that you and Suzy are connected, even if you don't know it yet."

Indeed we are, it's just we don't know how, yet. She might even be why we came in the first place.

"Hell, Clam girl seems to have even more insight into the Universe than Sans does, she can sense Aura in a paranormal way to determined you've killed Undyne for example. It's a shame she doesn't get much attention."

Yep, all that attention was moved to Suzy, who was then frankly forgotten about for a while. Probably because of a lack of information about Suzy meaning that theorizing about her will get us nowhere.

"She's almost like an opposite to Sans. Sans is a science guy, he knows how things work scientifically and knows a thing or two about Space and Time. Clam Girl is more like a spiritual medium. And according to Synchronicity theory, they are both right, just only looking at one side of the Cosmic coin instead of the whole. (It's kind of like Doctor Strange, jeez what's with me and Marvel today?) They both are connected to Gaster, with their knowledge combined, maybe that's what drove Gaster to conduct the Experiement that made him one with the Universe."

The experiment failed, though. He was likely trying to turn the mystic into a science.

"Though not in the way monks recommend..... Maybe how he built the CORE a magical powerstation that can create infinite electricity."

Infinite electricity? No, the CORE just took the heat of the lava it's under and uses that as a power source. We actually have similar structures in the real world! (Thermopower is the name of said power) No perpetual energy machine here.

"By knowing the true nature of reality, making him a genius who's brilliance was irreplacable. A half Mage half Scientist. Maybe. All just speculation."

That would explain his irreplaceable genius, yes. Perhaps so smart that his continued existence would disrupt the balance between humans and monsters, and thus, the experiment was destined to fail, to restore the balance?

"(Another thing I find interesting is that even Clam Girl and Sans' attitudes reflect this. Clam Girl like spritual people is happy and content with any situation, as sprituality makes you believe there is a necessary reason for why things happen. While Sans is depressed and discontent with any situation, as cold hard science teaches you that the Universe has no meaning or purpose, things happen because of the laws of physics and that's the way they are. They need to hook up and see the big picture together! Synchronicity! I feel like Sans would be happier this way, while Clam Girl would be more rational...but still happy.)"

Essentially, it's that they have meaning, yet they don't.. Mainly because the mystical parts only happen at the quantum level.. or something like that. And in Undertale's world, this is indeed quite plausible, and unlike this world, there is indeed some evidence that points towards a mystical direction.

Point is, Synchronicity(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity) is Undertale's version of supersymmetry(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry) in our Universe, connecting two seemingly unconnected facets of reality, the paranormal and spiritual, and the physical and scientific."

Supersymmetry speculates that each boson has a fermion partner, and vice versa, and somehow, there's a way to get a T-symmetry violation from this. By the way, if CPT is a real thing, a T-violation MUST exist, because we already have a CP violation. The "arrow of time" is often suspected to be entropy, which gradually increases, meaning that there could already be evidence of a T-violation. Either way, this has nothing to do with traveling backwards in time, just that backwards time is not the same thing as forwards time.

"In Undertale's plot It's Toby's in Universe explanation, a metaphor for how game mechanics such as plot and monsters and saving and loading works. (Fun fact: Toby has dipped into Synchronicity before, his Earthbound halloween hack had a track called "Synchronicity". (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy9PfbXFQJM) which played exactly when the main character, Varik got his "call to adventure" after running into a missing poster which lead to the game."

Plot, yes. SLR? Not really.

"I wonder if Synchronicity will be explored in whatever is "fast approaching"?"

Probably, we'll be meeting Suzy, after all. "The time you will meet her" is what's fast approaching.

"Yes, I feel like he'll get more into Synchronicity in this game, that is meant, according to him, to explain more of Undertale's world to us. The game's also got something to do with Gaster and "darkness".   "THE DARKNESS KEEPS GROWING" -Dr. W. D. Gaster ex-royal scientist."

Gaster and Suzy, the two mysterious of the game we can't quite solve yet. We can get close with Gaster, though. We know almost nothing about Suzy.

"Do see how it's not? It's literally what happens, you are making up stories about Chara pushing us to kill when they do absolutely no such thing, you are free to make your own choices with no biases put upon you."

Yes, we make our own choices. But have you not read the lines of Chara doing just that? And yes, they don't do the opposite in Pacifist, they just do nothing at all to help!

"What? What are you even getting at? This isn't even about wether or not it's useful to us, it's about how Chara describes it and how that description lets us see into their world view. Whether they see a container as half empty or half full when it only contains 50% of stuff."

We usually talk about glasses of water. Since, you know, we can actually DRINK the water?

"Chara describing it as "something funny" shows they also believe it's funny. If Chara did not think it was funny, they would say "You find this funny."But no, they are agreeing on the concept that this is funny. They say "something funny" as if it's a fact.  They don't say "you found this funny" they are saying you remembered something that IS funny. As if it's a fact to them."

So maybe they both think so, and in the former where Chara doesn't say this, Chara still thinks it's funny (only if you killed the Dogi, because otherwise, there really is nothing to laugh about), but Frisk doesn't unless they've corrupted themselves enough. Frisk simply didn't remember the "funny" thing otherwise, because they don't see it as funny.

"Nice play on words."

Thanks:By the way, that was actually the whole purpose of the title I gave in this thread.

"But I disagree. After their death they were neutral, it is during a genocide that they are a fallen angel."

They only really help us in Genocide, though. They're THERE in the other routes, because they're the narrator, but they don't do much to help you.

"Frisk hasn't changed, Frisk was the one who wanted to fight in the first place, that's how Genocide happens, no Chara is the one who changed."

I was kind of going for Frisk having "changed" from Chara's actions in life, but seeing it now, yeah, I wasn't really making much sense. Frisk's actions were far different than Chara's in life, hence the lack of recognition.

"Chara is not in control, control is split between You and Chara, but Chara always lets you make your own choices as you are their guide, you are the one who walked over to Asgore's room. The one who could just do a true reset instead or could spare from the very beginning."

As I said, Chara doesn't take control until LV19. You could have spared from the very beginning, but you didn't. And now THIS happened. Are you happy about that? The very last paragraph of my original post still applies right now.

"Chara kills Asgore FOR you, believing this is what you want, partner, and likely because they felt like they had to do it, character wise.  And both would get the EXP anyways due to their link."

The HUD does not say that we've gained any EXP. Our LOVE does not increase either, as the sound does not play.

"As seen with Sans, who was Chara's kill but you still LV'd up and so did Chara."

We only gained EXP from Sans because we both participated in the battle. It's like how in Pokémon, if two Pokemon work together to KO an enemy, they both share the experience points. Asgore was all Chara.

"Neither of you are human. You turned Chara into one of you."

No, I'm human alright, but that doesn't make me a hero. =]

"Though you could say Frisk was corrupted, and that it's player's actions."

They corrupted themselves. We corrupted ourselves.

"As I said, it's Chara too."

Chara's finding of it being funny doesn't depend on the 20 kills, though, merely Frisk's.

"No it's because of what Frisk did, "dusty dance" Chara does not exist until you kill enough Monsters. And you do that of your own will with no guidance from anyone, because it is you who gives THEM guidance."

No, we show them that we're willing to kill the monsters, and thus, they see that we are worthy to help them in their goal...

"The change in perspective happened in the first quote where he, (similar to Chara) calls upon you to show him if killing isn't the way, what you did was change it back again. You confirmed his old beliefs and he tells you that sarcastically, because he didn't really learn anything new."

But I never changed it in the first place, I started by not sparing a single life (while not actively searching for monsters.)

"No, it is you who is confused.   Take a look at this statement.   "Perhaps. We can reach a compromise." This SHOULD be. "Perhaps, we can reach a compromise." The earlier one is grammatically incorrect. It's due to Chara's way of speaking. Again, Chara's speech is broken up into short sentances during this meeting.    But you can still get what they're saying."

Seems as though Chara was thinking carefully on how to phrase this deal..

"Guidance cannot bring someone back to life the very idea is ludicrus.  To guide someone they have to be not dead."

You "awakened" them from death, though the power of your determination, getting them to stay determined.. Guiding them to stay determined afterwards... This is what they mean.

"It was our Determination that brought them back. And it was our guidance that taught them to grind for power.  When they talk about our guidance they are no longer talking about what brought them back to life. As, they already answered that with "You. My "human soul" my "determination" they were not mine "but YOURS" (you ommited that.) telling us that it was our SOUL and Determination that brought them back."

That answer was before they asked the reason why they were brought back to life. They went back, to how they were confused, as to how they were brought back to life if their plan failed. Then, they realized it was you. YOU. Your determination, its guidance, so that Chara would stay determined! Kind of like what Chara does to US every time we die!

"Edit: looking at your next posts, I see you do not doubt it...I'm still going to leave it, you confuse me, this one seems to suggest you do, IDK."

I don't doubt that they exist with us in Pacifist, what I doubt is that they're actually a useful guide in Pacifist.

"Yes, but not only do they stop seeing this as a mission, they stop being murder-y in general and just are a gloomy neutral."

As I said, what's the point? The mission is already failed! Just like last time...

"Uh yes they, can. Chara's ability to control your body isn't just in genocide, it's also in pacifist, when they open a random page of the Monster History book for you."

Why can't that be Frisk again, with Chara just narrating what it says like they always do?

"Chara's ability to control you has nothing to do with LOVE (again, LOVE is not physical power, it's just your willingness to hurt.). It could always be done. Control over Frisk's body is split between them like a Soul fusion."

Chara has no SOUL, though. All of that came from us. At this point, Chara's existence is fully dependent on ours-This is probably why they tell us to stay determined no matter what the route is-If we die, so do they.

"While it is debatable whether it's Chara or Frisk that moved it's likely it was Chara as Chara in their narration shows a ton of impatience, they wouldn't stand Papyrus's puzzles. Frisk never moves during a conversation."

They don't when it's not genocide. Frisk is far different in Genocide than in other routes. This is them deciding they'd rather just skip the puzzle to kill Papyrus sooner.

"Only when walking and preforming actions. It's unheard of for a player character to do this."

It's also unheard of for a player character to ever get this evil in the first place. "We don't have any power, LOVE is your Level Of ViolEnce, it shows your willingness to hurt, that kind of thing cuts though Monsters like a hot knife through butter (as seen in Monster history)."

It also gives you the power to destroy the world.

"Otherwise we're still just a kid with a gardening tool which is close enough to a real knfie that Chara calls it that in genocide, despite in pacifist explaining it's dull and only good for cutting plants."

Like some random kid can just erase the world with a single attack, dealing so much damage that the 9's take up the entire screen (That's over 100 9's, we did more than a googol of damage! Even if we make 1 damage to be a quanta of energy, the smallest amount of energy to exist, we output more energy than exists in the entire observable universe, which is certainly enough to destroy the world.)

Chara is almost certainly LV9999 at this point.

"Chara could always erase the SAVE file, but they don't have the willingness to destroy the world until they reach LV 21 and all guilt is gone."

21? It's either 20, because we never heard a level-up sound after Sans, meaning they should have done it right after the Sans battle (so if we share LV with Chara, it HAS to be 20, because WE never LV'd up after that), or it's 9999, because of their ability to deal as much damage as they did. Also, they didn't erase the SAVE file. They attacked the world with a physical slash. Little details like this matter.

"Because, it's the lesson of Undertale, they would learn that it was wrong to try and kill the Humans and do a genocide. And because they would learn that Asriel was indeed trying to teach them to do the right thing and it was not all for nothing, that they were going about all this wrong."

Chara doesn't have meta-knowledge like that. If they knew that Undertale was one big game trying to teach a moral lesson, they would never have gone with their plan in the first place. And tell me, how did they learn that? What brought them to that conclusion? I'm not asking why it'd be good to learn that, anyone SHOULD learn that, but why it's plausible that they DID learn that.

"Of course it would, considering Frisk was attacked to and fro by Monsters and still spared them."

Because monsters are supposedly the good guys? ..Wait, they didn't kill them? Looks like we have another human that's kind like Chara was! They're not the only one! ...Still, though, doesn't make the other humans any better, does it, Chara? "Yes we do teach this to Chara, as seen by their actions in pacifist."

..What actions?

"That was way before we came along, dude."

Yes, but that shows the parallel is not quite such a match after all. "All of the pacifist narration, Chara is very very happy in pacifist. At the end of pacifist they celebrate at your image "It's you!" if you look in the mirror at Toriel's."

That is well BEFORE Asriel. I'm asking for evidence that they forgave Asriel and were happy at the END, not whether or not Chara likes to say that you're the one behind the mirror rather than themselves in Genocide.

"When you turn on the game after Pacifist Flowey acknowledges Chara's fight alongside Frisk against Flowey's ability to RESET he acknowledges they might be worried about Frisk, and tells them not to worry or reset themselves. Though, knowing the allure, assume it's totally possible they have."

He assumes that it's Chara's choice, that Chara is the ONLY threat, not Frisk, meaning he got completely wrong who has the power to reset. If he got THAT wrong, what's to say he didn't get this one wrong too? Frisk was the one fighting to stop the power, Flowey assumed it was Chara because there's no way to distinguish whose actions are who if two people share control, and that's what Flowey assumed happened.

"No, Chara was unsure wether what Asriel did was betrayal, or wether it was right, therefore that's not true at first. Only in genocide. Though it isn't hatred for Monsters, just the need to attack the targets of the mission in order to complete it."

The mission is to kill everyone, not just kill Asriel, you can do that in Neutral just fine. Therefore, because of their desire of this mission, it IS hatred for ALL of monsterkind. Also, as I asked, why would they suddenly change their mind after Asriel's actions GOT THEM KILLED? If Chasriel survived this, then I could see Chara questioning themselves, but them getting killed just proves Chara's point.

"It's talking about Pacifist first of all, (by the way these are quotes from the post about this theory I sent you which I can see you lied about reading. (https://determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this)) secondly Chara works with you, giving you guides and in the Asriel fight the SAVE option."

I actually almost called you out for plagiarism at the very start of the post, before realizing you linked to that post before, and this CAN'T be an attempt at that. Anyways, even in Pacifist, all they do is still just give you some statistics and a few things about what the monsters are doing-The latter was kind of an indication that this wasn't solely talking about Genocide, since Chara doesn't really do that much in Genocide. Also, Chara didn't make the SAVE option. I discussed this in one of my earlier posts that you decided not to respond to, and I suppose you didn't even analyze them either.

"Well, Frisk is still a young child, I dunno if Chara hated Human chilldren like them. They can learn to not be garbage. But they didn't. And if a CHILD couldnt...."

Then that only proves Chara's point about humanity as a whole, and that it applies to children as well.

"And they're still a person, so it applies."

Yes, but you shouldn't exactly follow an evil person's advice like that.

"Again, they do not reach this in the beginning only during genocide, nor do they have a hatred of Monsters, genocide doesn't come from hatred, just completion of the mission to kill them. It's the mission to do Genocide and get LOVE."

But why did they MAKE the mission in the FIRST place? I'm saying the mission came from hatred.

"No it would be Asriel onto Frisk."

So that's not backwards at all, Asriel did Chara onto Frisk.

"Not my conclusion."

You quoted it, though, so you should at least understand it.

"The stats and descriptions seem to depend on the run. Maybe it has to do with the amount of power they FEEL they're getting from this objects. Increasing their confidence. IDK."

They do depend on the run. So does the number of boxes, by the way. That box in Judgement Hall only exists in Genocide. So perhaps they really are two different lockets. (It's also very clear evidence of something mystical, there is no way this can be causally related under natural means.)

"Well, Asriel, deep down, knew you weren't Chara, even in the Asriel fight he says "I'm not ready to say goodbye to someone like you again. LIKE you. He knows it isn't really them. So it's in a sense the same except Chara isn't calling Frisk Asriel."

Because it's Chara's qualities that Asriel likes, making them irreplaceable like that. Why does Asriel act so surprised when we reveal we're not Chara?

"And again, it's the reverse of what Asriel does at the end of pacifist."

No, it seems to be the exact same, projecting their best friend onto you.

"It was never our ability, we always asked CHARA to save their own file."

You're the one being filled with determination, not Chara.

"It's YOU who takes Chara to the next world buddy, you're the one who has to close Undertale and go into Game. The "next world" is a metaphor for another game. The multiverse is an in-universe metaphor for other Games you have on Steam or your Switch or whathave you. Chara is telling you they'll always be your HUD."

No, there was plenty of HUDs even BEFORE Chara awakened for the first time, so those HUDs cannot be Chara.

"Also Chara doesn't leave you in the void, they erase the world(which allows you to go into a new one) you are only presented with the void if you try to go back to the Undertale world. In which Chara is betrayed and gets the hint you did this for fun and proceeds to chew you out for expecting to find the world you destroyed here."

I didn't expect to find the world I destroyed, though. I expected to find myself in the next world, like how I found myself in Flowey's world after HE crashed the game.

"So you're saying you are a psycopath playing Undertale from prison?"

For all Chara knows.. Really, I played the route for the same reason why other players did:To see what happens. But FRISK very well COULD be this way. And we're canonically Frisk, so..

"It's also probably talking from the perspective of people who do pacifist, reset, and do genocide, which is common."

They shouldn't assume this, though, especially since not everyone does this. I mean, Markiplier (Or was it PewDiePie?) STARTED with Genocide.

"Because Chara thinks you are simply grinding for LOVE. You can't get anymore, so we're done here. On to the next world. Besides there isn't really a reason to protect humanity, the Monsters are behind the barrier, the only thing you'd need to defend is yourself, your point on protecting Humanity by killing Monsters to prevent them from taking anymore SOULs is moot as you don't learn about the concept of taking human souls until you reach Undyne."

What I do know is that everyone who enters never returns, and those people need saving. We also don't learn the monsters' perspective of the story until Undyne either.

"Besides, Undertale's story seems to imply Frisk climbed the mountain to commit die."

...Um, no it doesn't. It had to do with Suzy, remember?

"Undertale Yellow's plotline involves the Justice Soul investigating the dissaperences, they even bring a missing poster with them, and that could be why Justice came here in canon, but that's not what's happening with Frisk."

Or is it? Really, we come for whatever reason we make it. We ARE Frisk.

"Only you know the answer, don't you?"-Asriel

"What? I don't get what you're trying to say here."

Basically, I was telling them YES, Asriel wasn't their best friend, the sides were completely off. Asriel is a monster, and thought freeing monsterkind was a good idea, while my "take" is that the humans were the good guys all along, and thus, the monsters deserved the destruction (no they didn't, the Barrier was enough, but hey, this is GENOCIDE, corrupted me/Frisk.). Then, right after saying this, well, Chara still destroys the world anyway, killing the humans too, leading to my question on why they just did that.

"Well that's what happens when Toriel is your mother."

Toriel likes puns too, yes. But that can't be the full story, since they don't do this in Genocide.

"Chara: "Wieilds a stone dogger made of out of pomer-granite." Frisk: "I swear head voice! STAHP!" Frisk: *looks inside a royal guard dog's station* Chara: "On the floor inside is a box of Pomerraisins."   Frisk: "What did I do to deserve this torture!"  *Throws away raisins.

Chara: = ( "You remove the box of non-dog related raisins."

So the puns only stop when you throw away the raisins.. But then they start anew soon afterwards..

"I can just imagine Toriel and Chara having back to back punage like Toriel and Sans would probably be having nowadays."

Yep, that did probably happen.

"Yep, they can be quite judgemental. Explains why they criticized Asriel's crying like a baby back during the tape."

Yet they don't do this in Genocide at all.. I wonder why?

"I wonder if Sans and them would get along. Nobody explores that, only as worst enemies."

I'm sure they would in an AU where the plan never happened.

"Maybe Chara physically will not let them, slapping Frisk's hand with Frisk's other hand.  " *slap* No! Bad!" "

Frisk:But you let me steal all those shop items! How is this any different?

"Uh, I know this. Lol."

I attribute even MORE actions to Frisk than you do, with only the last three kills and destruction of the world going to Chara.

"No they don't. Chara can only know what you know, and what they know, that moment of sparing was just as unexpected for them as it was for you. And they let you do what you want with no interfearence."

In that case, that means they didn't know the solution to killing Sans either. That's why they didn't take control sooner.

"They don't say "Do what you always do" or "Don't fall for it." or "Are you seriously considering this?" Nope, just "Sans is sparing you." ...Now what, my guide?"

CHECK->Sans

Chara:"Can't keep dodging forever. Keep attacking."

.*flash backwards*

Sans: what? you think i'm just gonna stand there and take it?

Chara: Just keep attacking.

Chara also says that Sans is sparing you even if you've already been dunked on, so it's clear having this knowledge does not matter.


 * flash forwards.*

Sans: woah, you look REALLY pissed off... heheheh... did i getcha? well, if you came back anyway... i guess that means we never really WERE friends, huh? heh. don't tell that to the other sans-es, okay?

Chara: The REAL battle finally begins. "The player wishes they could do that the moment they saw him dodge after dying a million times before making it to the end. And we're shocked when it comes true."

Because we finally found a way to attack more than once per turn by moving the box to allow us, and Chara by extension, to interact with it when they shouldn't be able to.

"Chara:"He's my dad, I'll put him down." "Oh hey, Asriel not only did you steal our EXP, but as you've noticed, I've got a new friend now who won't betray me (lol, they don't see it coming!) so, bye!" "

He only stole half of it, but still, he took some away, and DID steal the kill.

"What? It never said the Kills were shared it said the LOVE and EXP from their kills were shared between them."

So where's our EXP from Asgore and Flowey?

"Right, you are a great partner. = )"

Correct. So, how about we keep this going? =)

"What? Yes they do. They are confused.   "No? ... Hmm. Interesting" (internal rage) "You must be confused. (suddenly external) SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL!" Our betrayal makes them angry and they decide to do it anyways, they don't need your approval anymore! They've already been completely turned, after all."

Seems they failed to consider that maybe Frisk only wanted to kill monsters.

"Uh.. no. That's not part of their plan, it's something they come up with on the spot."

Or pretended to.

"Their plan, what they thought was both our plans, was to go to the next world, the next game, and keep going after they erase this one."

No, that's the fake plan that that wanted us to believe in, to goad us into this.

"But you, by coming back and clicking Undertale again after they closed it, shows them that this was never your plan, you just want to mess around with this world, and they proceed to scold you about how you're the one who destroyed it and that there are perminant concequences."

No, I wanted to see what happened next, like what happens if I do the exact same thing, but with Flowey! "I'd say it's because they would never assume outright their beloved brother did this to hurt them, they've been family for so long.   They don't know if what Asriel did was right or what they were trying to do was right. They need an example."

They HAVE an example, though. And the fact still stands that they both died from this, and when they awakened, the Barrier still exists. "I honestly don't know anymore. Prove to me. Prove to me you're strong enough to survive."-Flowey

In fact, you can do a True Pacifist Route at this point, meaning Flowey's plan to become Asriel had already been set into motion at this point-This likely being his REAL reason for railroading you into pacifist.

"Again, you're confused. YOU take THEM to the next world, you could say they closed the game so you'd open another. The void exists because Undertale has been erased."

Come on, Chara, take me to Underfell so I can kill those monsters too!

"And Chara themselves asks you what you are looking for(if you chose no to above concequences), we destroyed the world, dummy! When you open up Undertale again."

Yeah, so that we'd be more desparate to get something back!

I'm looking for YOU, Chara, that's what I'm looking for!

"Their Stats are on the SAVE, the owner of the SAVE gets their stats on the SAVE, this is seen when Flowey takes control of the SAVE. glitchy once upon a time in the background, a save file appears in a void."

Yes, the OWNER of the SAVE. Frisk is the NEW owner of the save, but it is strange how Flowey's name is on it new. Perhaps it is because of the Charisk situation that the SAVE file detected Chara, when in fact Friskis the one with the ability. This might also be the reason why "Frisk" makes you life hell, if it detects Chara first, asking you for their name, then detects Frisk afterwards, creating an error, a lot of things might change. Chara might even have never existed in this Hard Mode timeline, if it's even a thing.

"Um, what? No, we DID do it for power! Come on, Chara, I want that next world!"

"By coming back to Undertale you proved to Chara you did not do it for Power, but for fun, and you want your toyland back. You did not go to the next world."

Of course I didn't, you didn't show me the way! =< Just open the portal, come WITH me, and go to the next world!! You're not acting like a partner at all, Chara!!

"Ha, nah, you were just a Psyco, I mean Toriel wanted to protect you"

To stop me from meeting Asgore..

"Sans tried to be friends with you"

Also saying I shouldn't keep killing the opposing monsters..

"Papyrus wanted to teach you to be good."

By letting the monsters live..

"Asgore wanted to settle this over tea instead of fightng."

So that he could kill the next human and do the plan instead..

"Again, WE never has the S/L/R, "SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL?" this is what they mean. It's Chara's save file. Besides, what reason would you have to reload a dead world?"

To UNdestroy it..?

"You are misguided.  You did not understand the metaphor. Lol."

No, it was you, who simply couldn't fathom the idea that such a good kid could EVER lie to their "partner" like that. "The metaphor -> Your head."

Chara SHOULD have said:"Then either stay here, or move onto a different world.", if your take was correct. "Lol they aren't Chara's friends, they're your friends."

You know how all this time you said Chara wanted us to spare them, that they CARE about them and all of that? That's kind of what I mean here. Of course they're not really Chara's friends, that's why Chara killed them.

"Well, not really, you just killed them a timeline ago, they're just your playthings, Chara makes sure you don't get shiny new toys after you broke your old ones. You don't deserve them."

Toys to me, but that doesn't make them toys to you, Chara, not after I've changed. They deserve to live. Besides, why is Frisk still alive?

"No. And coming up is a post dealing with this flawed viewpoint."

This post never came to be.

"You go take them to the next world."

They REFUSE to follow me there!! "( Hope it changes some more! )"

If it actually makes more SENSE, I will. Otherwise, I'm keeping the anti-villain theory. Besides, think of it like this:In my take, even at the end of Genocide, they STILL wouldn't want to destroy any other world but their own, the one they hated.

"Exactly. You play with a world you keep killing."

So do you want it destroyed or not, Frisk?

Frisk:...

One or the other. Choose.

"This power is simply DT's power over the Universe, it's not attack power but time power. Chara can reverse a timeline, or destroy it altogether."

There's a difference between the two.

"As Sans says. "you'll keep on consuming timelines over and over until-"

"everything ends."-Sans

Why? Because Chara destroys the world, of course!

"No, they're Soulless, and Soulless beings can absorb both Human and Monster souls, they are a vessel, just like the vessel Alphys planned to use to keep the Monster Souls safe which ended up being Flowey."

Flowey is neither human nor monster-This was a major point brought up by Alphys herself. Chara is also neither human nor monster, and they are invisible until the very end.

"The Angel prophesy applies to the Human who falls."

In Pacifist, it's Asriel-HE broke the Barrier. In Genocide, it's Chara.

"Chara could still gain love and do that in their new body. Chara with DT could fight God Asgore like we fight God Asriel, maybe emotionally manipulate them abit, convince him to give back his power (in fact he probably wouldn't keep it after the deed was done, so they could just kill normal Asgore.) and kill him."

Actually, Frisk would have partial control over Asgore, so, that's a lot harder than it looks. And I don't think Pacifist Frisk would let this happen.

"Eh, not really, they enjoy death but they actually want you to kill people quickly, they don't go the "torture them" route."

That's the monsters. Tell me, how did they treat Flowey again? And Chara sees the humans as just as bad, so..

I mean, they see humans as so bad that they'd try to get their adopted brother to help them commit assisted suicide so they can take their soul and eventually wipe out every last human being on the planet under a pretext of rescuing monster-kind. Oh, and by the way, the humans won't KNOW what's coming until Chara's already appeared, and possibly not even until that first attack. There IS an element of surprise here.

"No, you can't do that.  Remember, Chara has the save file, you are powerless to return the world and are at Chara's mercy. (Unless you hack i guess.)"

Right. I have a far BETTER response elsewhere in the post.

"Good, I wouldn't either. What do you mean?  What stuff?"

You quoted that Chara was the last part of a long effort to hold you accountable for your actions. So, what's the parts of the effort that come before Chara?