Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-38742181-20190308020842/@comment-38742181-20190312091302

Pyrauxe wrote: there's a few points wrong with what you said. Firstly, the yellow soul of Justice also has the ability to freely move around the bullet board. Secondly, you forgot to think about the fact that in the Genocide Route, while the player can certainly think about acting how they wish and commiting genocide, they aren't really free to just go around to kill everything, as multipile characters, especially Sans, will attempt to stop them... If the soul power truly is freedom, and the protagonist can think and act as they wish, it doesn't make sense to me they could be so easily manipulated and controlled by not only the enemies and the semi-forced path they have to follow through the game (not being able to go around objectives, skip through the story, etc), but the player behind the screen themselves. Lastly, the red soul cannot change its own heart mode at will, it has to be manipulated by the enemy and forced to change.

It's a posible theory, but in my own opinion the red human soul, and what seems to be the most powerful soul, if it was freedom, then the control over it by everything that's happening --the enemies changing Frisk's heart mode,h aving to take turns attacking, having to go through specific things to get to the end when they could simply just not-- including the player would likely be non-existant. Ok, I sorta' agree with what you are saying; however, there are a few key elements you seem to forget about freedom. I get it that whenever you think of freedom you think "no rules" and yes, true freedom is like that, but there is also a direct coralation between freedom and power. An example: Chara is described as a human with a red SOUL. In the end of the genocide run, Chara (having been given power based on you gaining EXP/LOVE) finally takes form and then gives you a "choice" of whether to destroy the world or not. Either way, Chara will destroy the world and make you unable to play the game for at least 10 minutes. Sure Frisk has freedom, but they never had the power to attack NPCs or skip the rules of battle. Chara, on the other hand, regained power though each and every murder the player committed through Frisk.

Let me poke a hole in my theory now with the situation of Flowey... Flowey is divout of a SOUL and yet they can break the rules of the game when they get the 6 human SOULs. Weird right? Well, here is another theory: red is the ultimate color of any SOUL. When other SOULs combine together, they eventually become one red SOUL. Also remember that Frisk is able to move on their own without player input, we just help them along in how to make decisions and in dodging attacks.

Next, justice is sort of a variation of freedom. Justice is telling right from wrong, and a SOUL full of justice will most definately judge free action as either right or wrong. That is the thing, you can't have justice stopping bad decisions without being able to stay in the same kind of motion as free thinkers. This is also why the justice SOUL is upside-down and can shoot, it is so that they can stop renegade evil-doers who are exercising their free action in (what is deemed) a horrible way.

You also got me there when it came down to how the SOUL can't change mode on its own will-power. However, this kind of thing goes back to the problem of power. Without power, the SOUL can't break any rules that are set by the "supreme creator" (I.E. Undertale's god: Toby Fox), this also means that the SOUL can't change its mode unless it has extreme levels of power or is helped along by enemies. That is why all those characters could change your SOUL mode.

Hope I covered all your arguements!

Starbomb155 wrote: well determination can be mutiple things and why would determinationion's use be running away Ok, have you been to the true lab? I ask because that is where we learned that monsters were kept alive through a determination machine. Sure they required to be put together in order to stay alive, but that is because they are made of mostly magic (unlike humans). They were still alive and mostly themselves. (Plus the whole issue with Flowey being Asriel just adds to this point) Another thing, you can run away and still be determined. In that case, you are determined to stay away from conflict/to survive.