Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-31536324-20190129231540

"Okay then: "ENTRY NUMBER 5: I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination."

Yeah, that still separates the two as different applications of DT. Also, the God of Hyperdeath fight is a FANTASTIC example of "resolve to change fate.

"They're synonyms, not the same thing. Determination is the will to continue to ACHIEVE A GOAL; the drive to complete a purpose. Perseverance is the will to repeat and continue a task despite difficulty; the drive to finish a task."

To be perseverent to achieve your goal, you have to have strong will to achieve goal aka determination. So real world's determination is rather part of perseverance, its not an own trait as both traits complete each other. However since real life determination trait has no color in the game as the ball game implies that there's only 7 colored traits since theres only those traits in the ball game, their soul turn into purple, perseverance trait."

I refer you to the part of my response my this was responding to. As that still disproves this. You're conflating the two like how people conflate Jealousy and Envy - jealousy is the fear of losing what you have, and envy is the desire for what you don't have and others have.

"Determination leads to Perseverance, okay then. Perseverance leads to Determination, as shown by the flags, meaning the other traits do as well, and that the inverse is true as well."

But even though perseverance leads to determination, it doesnt leads to any other trait. Determination is an important part of perseverance, not any other way around."

I repeat, Perseverance is the drive to repeat and continue, Determination is the firmness of purpose, the drive to achieve. Also here is how Perseverance leads to the other traits:

Bravery - Continuing to face enemies and obstacles despite the danger.

Justice - Continuing to do what you believe is right.

Kindness - Continuing to be caring and concerned.

Patience - Continuing to wait, stall, hold off, other word that coukd be used here.

Integrity - Continuing to hold to your morals.

See the pattern here? CONTINUING, as in REPEATING, doing things over again and again and again. Not being driven to achieve, or doing so to fulfill a purpose, simply REPEATING like a scientist or analyst.

The Purple SOUL is associated with the glasses and notepad, meaning Perseverance is more of an analytical approach rather than a compulsory one.

Determination gives a sense of drive and purpose, while the others give a different means to achieve that purpose, apply that drive.

DT gives them drive, the other Traits give DT foundation.

"What's your point here? That DT and Pr are too similar, so Red can't be DT? Well I just showed you how they're different, and that "point" doesn't do anything other than show what the game already implies."

Yes, they cant separated traits because they complete each other."

DT also completes the other traits, and all the traits complete DT. So, by your logic, there shouldn't be ANY Traits. Period.

"Let's see, Frisk continuously defied fate and death (REFUSE)"

Ya know like all fallen humans did."

Except they didn't, they're dead. SAVE is not the same as defeating a god like entity, and literally refusing to DIE.

" they continued on their paths until they achieved their goals (Neutral, Pacifist, Genocide; resolution), and those SAVE Point quotes all associate them with DT (what else would they be filled with other than what defines them?)"

Hahahaha that's honestly a so funny misconception ive often saw, especially in Camilla cuevas blog. Here a fact:the save point is something that allow us to use save load power and as Flowey says, you need to be the most determined being to use this power."

Yes.

"So to save on a save point you need to be "filled with determination/the will to keep living",so allfallen humans were filled with determination in a save point. . Theres no evidence that the stuff youre filled with when you save reflects your trait. And i feel like youre very influenced by the fanon stuff you saw in internet."

OH WOW! THAT doesn't change anything.

"Yes, because DT isn't something only a Red SOUL Human has, it's just what defines them as their trait. EVERYONE has DT, Monsters have it, Humans have it, A FLOWER has it; and as the flags imply, a Red SOUL has all the other traits, meaning the others do too even if their trait isn't Red. They're all a part of the SOUL, of course they'd have them.

Of course the other kids had DT, of course they had SAVE, because they were the most determined beings in their times! That's how the power is explicitly stated to work!"

So if the fallen humans were the most determined beings, why their trait wasn't red?"

BECAUSE DT WAS NOT THEIR TRAIT! THEY WERE THE MOST DETERMINED BEINGS IN THE UNDERGROUND BECAUSE THEY HAD MORE DT THAN EVERYONE ELSE, EVEN IF THEIR TRAIT ISN'T RED! THAT'S IT!

"Again, what else would you be filled with other than what defines you? Also, you're going STRICTLY AND ONLY by the "will to live" definition thr game has, while also completely ignoring the "resolve to change fate" definition that clearly implies the real world definition (firmness of purpose; resolution) is also applicable. Meaning that, yes, DT also fits as a trait."

No,Alphys was talking about death when she said "the resolve to change fate", when humans die, they refuse to die, they want to change fate thats reserved for them, so they want to change the fate."

No, she was not. There is no correlation between the two at all in terms of pure definition; the will to keep living folds more into firmness of purpose than anything.

"That still the will to keep living but just worded differently."

No it's not, it's resolution. What you're saying is redundancy.

"And there is big difference between the will to change fate and the will to achieve goal or firmness on purpose because that doesn't necessarily include the will to change fate."

Yes it does. The word used is resolve, another form of the word resolution, meaning firmness of purpose.

Here's Entry 5, in case you forgot: "I've done it. Using the blueprints, I was able to extract it. I believe this is what gives the Human SOULS the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living...The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power...Determination."

"For example:your fate is to become a responsible adult but that doesn't mean that an individual wouldn't be determined to be a responsible adult, so here thats not the "resolve to change fate". Alphys use the "will to keep living "and "resolve to change"fate as the same definition but worded differently to explain us fully the meaning of determination.

And determination was ALWAYS associated with the will to keep living in the game. For example, Asgore told Chara "to stay determined "as synonym for "keep the will to keep living"when they were dying. This definition of determination is the most important in universe thing, so thats wrong to ignore it. Flowey even says that he was "determined"to keep living."

And no one is ignoring it, but YOU'RE ignoring the other definition that the game uses and DEMONSTRATES IN THE PACIFIST ROUTE.

"I refer you to my immediate above response".

Acuatlly that does implies that Frisk only has the will to keep living because of silly stuff not because they fear to die. So without them the would kill themself, heck the game even implies that they climbed the mountain to die since why would else they ever climb the mountain where people dissapear?They even have a bandage that they already used "several times ".Other fallen childreen seems to lived with Toriel enough to overcome their suicidal urges even so they climbed the mountain to "disappear ",and so feared to die because monsters wants their death and be the most determined beings and so take over the save load power"

Except they can't. So almost all of this whole paragraph is nonsense. Yes, the game does imply that Frisk was suicidal on some level, but not only is it never brought up until the end, but it's even resolved by the time you leave Toriel the first time!

Once again, stop ignoring the definition of firmness of purpose the game clearly uses. The game even says that making the monsters not want to kill you is how you spare them, they literally say that lowering their FIRMNESS OF PURPOSE is how you SPARE them! Hell, the will to live is literally a form of resolve, resolution, FIRMNESS OF PURPOSE. There is literally nothing that says that Undertale's DT is not firmness of purpose.

"Except Chara has no SOUL, and thus no DT of their own to draw from. Both Chara (and thr Player if you're going Meta) draw their capabilities from Frisk DT. It's THEIR SOUL, THEIR DT, THEIR body, and THEIR life that's being used here. Chara even outright says that the DT and SOUL isn't theirs."

"Iam tired of this misconception:Chara only says that the power that brought them back to life was Frisk's determination and soul, not their own"your power awakened me from death. My human soul and determination werent mine but yours"

This is literally exactly what I said.

"That doesn't assume that they dont have their own determination besides Frisk's one. In fact dt is the "will to keep living", everyone who doesnt want to die can have it. Flowey, a souless being did to"But as long a was determined to live"

Yes, because he was injected with DT, and thus had it.

"The game implies that Chara has their own dt as they are the one who use their own dt to brought themself and Frisk to the save point."

There is literally no proof of this.

"There's no other possibility since Frisk come back to their save point when they died RIGHT IMMEDIATELY they heard Asgore telling Chara to keep determination, theres no reason for Frisk to listen a stranger and this message wasnt even adressed to them but to Chara. Chara use their dt to come nack to life because their father want them to."

Frisk and Chara are literally sharing a body, a SOUL, a LIFE. Frisk was the one in control, not Chara, and Chara literally says that the DT and SOUL that brought them back WASN'T THEIRS. Obviously Frisk would see Chara's memories as they're being sent back, THEY SHARE A BODY. Even then, Frisk gains DT from seeing anything, from random silliness or predicaments others are in, to buildings in the distance that even vaguely associate with their goal.

Hearing suportive words from a kind sounding stranger that ENCOURAGES being determined isn't that far off. You are not Frisk, people are not restricted by logic and reason, they more often than not do, think, and act outside of reason.

"Given Deltarune's info dump on the Red SOUL, I take it as the Red SOUL being DT, but being a vessel for other worldly entities."

I am not sure of what youre saying."

Exactly what the sentence says.

"Do you mean that Frisk's red soul isnt their own one?"

No, it is theirs, it's just liable to be used by other beings.

"And what about Charas red soul? Did it belonged to other world's entity?"

Their SOUL is gone, so I'm going with the above and no.

"Yellow is the color for important text, it's also the brightest and most stand out color in the spectrum, of course it was used for SAVE Points."

If the save point are yellow and that save point represent Frisk's dt, then dt is yellow, logically (not the same yellow as justice trait) ominant."

It doesn't REPRESENT DT, it's a MANIFESTATION of DT, and yes there is a difference.

"You realize that means the other SOULS can't have any other trait within them other than the trait they are, right? How exactly does that make any sense? You're doing the exact thing Tsskyx says Red = DT does: make every character on note uninteresting wooden cutouts."

Other traits dont have them as their personality traits, something that reflects how they are and what make them "special". But they probably have sence of justice, and even kidness(as all the human souls helped Frisk during omegas flowey fight)."

Exactly.

"Red soul is the only one that can have them as personality's traits.By the way, during the ball game Frisk doesnt use tactics that correspond to the "firmness of purpose"but rather all the six traits, which means that red soul isnt dt."

They played the game until they got the red flags, played until they got the ball into the hole in the fastest and quickest time and way possible. I do believe that is firmness of purpose.

"Yes, go by the CANON GAME, and what does this have to do with anything? This is what THA and I have been saying to Tsskyx: that the people are still three dimensional people that have multiple things that make uo who they are. The traits are just their MOST DEFINING QUALITIES."

Canonically yes, they have many facets:during omega flowey fight, their healing magic include music and all.But i don't think that their color reflect their most defining qualities as other traits like curiosity, self confidence, extraversion, stuborness etc... arent colored traits since the ball game only indicate that theres 7 colored traits."

This literally has nothing to do with anything, ignoring.

"That implies that if a perseverse soul has more self confidence or curiosity than their perseverance, than the soul would still likely be purple."

Ignoring.

"Or perhaps those are qualities that doesn't represent a personality's trait? Or that arent important to what humans are? After all the soul is the "culimination of your being", so the soul trait is something thats supposed to reflects our own self accurately."

Exactly, they're there, but whether or not they're traits is up in the air, because they're not important to the story. They could be, and they could not be; but that's not important, nor what we're talking about, or what this thread is about.