Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-33883848-20190223194135

"She was talking about fate in general. That entire spiel was about DT as a whole, not just one aspect of it. The strength to persist outside the human body and after death, the will to live, the resolve to change fate; all of these are a form of firmness of purpose"

theres no evidences that she was talking about fate in general, and she wasn't talking about dt as a whole considering that she firstly used specifically the "will to keep living"definition to describe it,meaning dt is something specific. And we can certainly say that the "resolve to change fate"pretty much match with the first definition describing dt as "the will to keep living"as "the will to keep living"is actually the resolve to change fate, to change death, to keep living despite our destiny. Also, in the game dt is always associated with the will to specifically change death, the will to keep living as Asgore telling Chara to hold on life(stay determined) or Flowey "As long as I was determined to live... " but never with changing fate in general

And considering her entry :

"I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination.""

It doesnt seems to describe two different functions as there's no "and"between the two definitions but ".... "as if they were completing each other and not two different functions.

And actually you misunderstood something :the ability to persist isn't a form of dt, its A RESULT of dt"I believe this is what give their souls the strength to persist after death"

And this is pretty clear that "the resolve to change fate "isn't "the firmess of purpose in general"as this is too specific as definition, that endorces the idea that dt has a different function in Undertale

But yeah, i agree that "the will to keep living"is a form of "firmess of purpose"BUT this substance she extracted from the souls is specifically the "the will to keep living", the resolve to live, not something more

"Second: It's literally stated in the game that to spare a Monster you have to make them not want to fight you. In other words you have to lower their determination to fight."

But the substance she called dt is SPECIFICALLY "the resolve to change fate", "the will to keep living"not the "determination to fight"

"Which means nothing."

That would be hinted though

"No she wouldn't have, because she wasn't looking for anything else other than what allowed Human SOULS to persist outside the human body and after death! She knew what she was looking for, she had a machine that could extract exactly what she was looking for. DT was the only thing that mattered, the rest were inconsequential since they already had SOULS of those other traits."

Shes actually saying she was just making rechearch about human souls, not looking for something that would allow their souls to persist: " I've been researching humans to see if I can find any info about their SOULS. " I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs"

Yes she was looking for "any info"not specifically what allows them to persist

"And where is the proof for this statement?"

I don't know, maybe the fact that the soul is actually "the culmination of your being"?

"Because each trait has ot own unique property and power to it."

Oh really? And where did you get this info? From what we know none of the traits have any specific power even though they differ in fighting styles and behavior, plus alphys never call dt a "trait"but ONLY a power"Let's call this power... "Determination", so its NOT trait but power everyone have in different quantities without having it as a "defining"trait

"How?"

Well obviously because if "the resolve change fate"was something general and not related with the will to persist then it wouldn't allow them persist after death as humans can only persist after death if they wants to persist. And Flowey even confirms that only the "determination to live"can allow us to keep living"But as long as I was determined to live, i could come back"

"First off, who has ever said the former at all in this thread?"

Person that person and the human ambassador (not sure for the latter)

"Second of all, WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE SITUATION IN THE GAME, whoever is the most determined- regardless of their trait at that time - is the one who gets the ability. The kids are heavily implied to have fallen one by one at different times, and since Humans have more DT than Monsters naturally, they would get the ability to SAVE. I'm talking specifically about the situation presented in the gane, nothing else."

But NOTHING implies that the save load ability is limited to the underground, so they must be the most determined beings in the world not just in the underground. That would be really weird if it was as it would foreshadows that the underground for some unknown reasons has it own rules that don't applies to the surface

"I'm not using personal ddfinitions, I'm wording them in a way for you to understand them. What you put is literally what I put. You've done nothing here but prove my point.'

So if Frisk is even showed to continue persevering despite difficulties that can rather mean they are perseverant. But no the firmess of purpose and perseverance complete each other, which could mean that the firmess of purpose is rather the characteric of perseverance souls as they are so determined to achieve their goal that they continue persevering despite difficulties

"Excdpt no in is calling them, IT'S A MEMORY, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE POWER, FRISK DOES!"

Asgore does when Frisk/Chara dies "Chara stay determined "and Frisk coincidentally wakes up right after hearing it, which implies its due to Chara as Chara is the "demon that comes when people call it name"Nothing really shows that the save load power belongs to Frisk, they sure share it with Chara allowing them to reset and load but all the save files are under Chara's name, implying that it rather belongs to Chara.

"For the last time: THE DT HE WAS INJECTED WITH IS HIS DT!"

Proofs??Also he literally showed that he had the psychological feeling of keep living due to his personal fear of death. And this is not because a monster is injected of dt that it can't has it own dt, same goes with Flowey. Every single living being has this personal instinct of wanting to avoid death.

"Was this supposed to accomplish anything other than restating what we've ready been saying this entire thread?"

Okay here briefly the proof The human ambassador used:

"So we need something that puts all of these things together."

Theres no evidences that Frisk need anything specific to put those traits together, rather it only seems like their trait is just a personality that includes the 6 traits, thus allowing them to use them to reach the red flag . "Bravery. Justice. Integrity. Kindness. Perseverance. Patience. Using these, you were able to win at "Ball Game." "

They don't used any "firmess of purpose"to get the red flag but all the 6 traits, which means their "trait"(honestly it doesn't seem to have any specific trait, ) =all the six traits. After all, during this ball game, each tactic to get a flag are associated with the soul trait symbolized by the flag you get. Example: ""Ball" is "Small." You waited, still, for this opportunity, ... then dethroned "Ball" with a sharp attack." This fits with the flag you get when you act like that:the flag that represent patience. So if Frisk's trait was the firmess of purpose, the flag would say "despite all difficulties, you never gave up your will to achieve your goal, this led you to your victory"or something like that. But they used all the six traits to get the red flag, so the red flag is supposed to match with those tactics, so the mix of all traits,thats also implied with the fact that "ball game"is written in red during the ball game, implying Frisk's trait is the "ball game", so all traits

"Are you talking about your arguments????" No, yours."

That's weird. I mean theres no strong evidences implying that Frisk's soul=dt and they are only filled with dt because of random, stupid things,I don't think they give them so much dt. Bold text