Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170806214238

1.1) You asked why would they drop it. So if I've already answered that, then we can close this point. And why would that monster drop the items they have received as a gift? Idk, but in the comic they wanted it only because it had a heart on it. Maybe others thought it was stupid, or the monster grew bored of it. Or both. And same with the pan.

2+2.1) I don't know. There isn't much vegetation in the ruins anyways, it's all rotting away. In this sense, the ruins represent autumn. But my main point here is that New Home was built around the time Chara came, and yet uses the same architecture as the old Home. So you can't just say the city on the surface is abandoned because it looks "old" compared to what could be called modern in ~210X. We don't know what "modern" is supposed to look like anyways.

Look at this: http://www.aribalive.com/uploads/images/Hero/prague.jpg?v=95141bb250e190f69f5bd957f61a5120cb68d973

Looks like a town from a previous era, doesn't it? And yet, it is not abandoned. It's just that. Old.

2.2) This point was about why Toby didn't include any humans in the outro, but ok. Do you know why I don't think Undertale doesn't take place in the present? Because of the date 201X. I think that's the present. It's just too specific to not mean anything. We first think that we're playing as the kid in the intro, but then it's revealed that that's old history, and the game actually takes place in the future, that's at least a hundred years distant from 201X.

3) I don't know what you're trying to say here, so I'll rephrase my own statement. By sparing everyone, we unknowingly show Chara that killing is not the way to go, and that Asriel was right. By killing everyone, we show Chara that they were right, and that it was Asriel's fault that they both got killed.

Now, Chara isn't completely innocent. Since they apparently had self-harming tendencies, one would think they could be a bit messed up in the head too. I mean, they did kill themselves after all. Maybe they knit those sweaters just to not get bored/act weird again. Kinda like a distraction tool. Still, their intentions were good, but after their plan failed and they woke up, without a soul, only being able to see that some kid is murdering everyone... well, if that was me, I too would probably think that the divine gods stepped down to finish the job.

After all, the world DID become kinda pointless after their plan failed. They wanted to free everyone, and instead they put the monsters into an even bigger misery. Chara didn't know there was hope, so seeing that someone is killing everyone, they would obviously jump into the conclusion that we're just purging a meaningless world, that we're just doing the right thing, that we're even giving everyone a favor, by liberating them from their own misery.

That's kinda messed up, but that's genocide for ya. On the other hand, true pacifist is about hope and optimism.

3.1) Therefore, we can conclude that it's not about whether Chara does or doesn't trust you. In fact, they have no idea what's going on. Backstabbing is when you turn against someone who trusts you. Not the case here. Chara didn't know Frisk, and Frisk didn't know Chara. Therefore, the only reason Chara helps you, is BECAUSE of what I wrote in the previous point. They DID want to help you. They acknowledged your ideology and went with it. On the other hand, in the true pacifist, they're most likely confused up until the very end, when they finally realize the true meaning of your actions. Killing isn't right. All of this also answers points 3.2 and 3.3 - why did Chara side with us even though we're humans? Well, in such scenario, who's who isn't really all that important either, considering the mentality of the situation.

3.3) No, that statement was interpreted correctly. Being brought back to life thanks to Frisk's guidance makes no sense. How can someone be brought back to life thanks to something that happens in the future? That makes no sense whatsoever. The real meaning of that sentence is that Chara questioned the purpose of their reincarnation at first, and found it thanks TO Frisk's actions. There is no other way this could be interpreted without turning the entire speech into a nonsense.

3.3 cont.) But it's still weird that Frisk is using Chara's save. Maybe it's because their souls are the same that this connection has formed. And I strongly believe that they share those stats as well. Therefore, if Frisk is LV 20, then so is Chara. But of course, as it was pointed in that link you posted, Chara doesn't care about the stats (maybe except for GOLD, but who doesn't, amirite? :D), they only care about killing everything, since it would be pointless to let someone live.

Oh, and I did not come up with this after reading that link, I figured this on my own. I mean, it's kinda obvious that Chara WANTED to kill everyone, since the world IS pointless from their point of view after they woke up INSIDE it.

3.4) point closed

3.5) I think this point was about the perverted sentimentality statement, which I've already acknowledged to be said by Chara due to your conflicting actions (as you pointed out), but ok. Destroying the world is a good deed in its own way. We free the monsters from the miserable reality. Have you seen the movie Inferno? A couple of guys want to release a deadly virus into the world, but they justify it by saying that the world is overpopulated and is in need of this. Same here. As cruel as it is, killing all monsters it is good in its own way. No one survives, no one suffers no more. Unfortunately, it's the worst kind of thinking at the same time.

And yes, Chara has changed when Frisk comes. But they're still confused, and we can still show them the better way. It's the two conflicting ideologies. Kill everyone so that no one has to suffer no more, or continue the suffering by letting everyone live? Of course, in this case, the possibility of an actually good ending wasn't so obvious at first. If it was so obvious, then I believe Chara would have picked that path instead.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">3.6) Still, "but it's not funny" must refer to the fact that Frisk didn't laugh. Whether it was a genious laugh or an anxious one. It's weird that those options are available in the first place. Maybe Chara has something against the Snowdrake family, but it's clear that Frisk didn't laugh. Since, Chara just corrected their narration there.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">3.7) And the player? Well, if the player is not in the story, then who is acting as the player? Since the HUD is designed that way. It can't be Frisk, if Frisk doesn't even obey the command. And it can't be Chara, since Chara is the narrator. So that kinda makes the HUD meaningless then, unless the player IS real, in which case, why does no one acknowledge them? Well, maybe Sans does, as I've already pointed out. But then, does that mean Flowey knows about YouTube viewers?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">See? We run into bullshit either way. Which is I like to keep it simple and say there's no HUD at all and try to explain everything without it. Even if it means dismissing certain things, like the 4th-wall-breaking aspects of Sans's battle.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Face it, Undertale was designed to be a good experience for us, the players. The HUD was meant to serve us, not the characters in the story. Trying to explain how does the player fit into the story when he's not even acknowledged to exist is pointless.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4) I just think that one of possible explanations for Sans's behavior is that he's trying to hide something from the player. I brought that up only for you though. I personally don't really believe it, since it's not consistent with the canon universe, if the game doesn't even acknowledge the player's existence. Have you read the Dogs of Future Past fan series? It does utilize the HUD, dimensions, code, and Gaster, but it also creates exactly what I'm talking about. General nonsense. The HUD only makes sense if it's in a videogame. It was designed that way. And it was designed to break the 4th wall, Toby made sure of that. So then, does that mean that the 4th wall interactions are canon? Does that mean Flowey knows about YouTube?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON

<p style="font-weight:normal;">^ That's you if you keep this up. I already ran into so many paradoxes I've decided to drop the idea of HUD being canon altogether. So unless you find some magical explanation for everything the game has to offer, I don't think I'll ever change my opinion.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Also, <span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">"Yes, Sans still activated the HUD. Remember, the HUD activates when someone uses a certain magical move on you. What if that move was to alter the space around Frisk, as to not let light in?"

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Doesn't that basically happen each time the HUD is activated? Each time, everything goes pitch black, before the HUD loads.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.1) Maybe glitches are canon. Maybe it's the magic itself that can break reality. I still believe that somehow, Sans found a way to duplicate the sentry stations. It would be a nonsense if he was teleporting them each time someone who knows about them passes by.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.2) That was not my point. I was pointing at the fact how Toby deliberately chose to shatter all assumptions that we're in full control over the protagonist. It looks like we are, but then it is revealed that the name we picked them isn't even theirs. Their name is Frisk. Not the one we've picked. As if we don't even know them. As if they're completely foreign to us. And that's why I think Frisk has their own character, their own personality, and that they're not the player, nor the player is them.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">If you say that Frisk is the player, then it wouldn't make sense to name Chara and not Frisk. The biggest plot twist in the entire game wouldn't make any sense. The fact that we first think that we're let's say John, but then realize that character's name is actually Frisk is supposed to separate us. And this is further supported by the fact that at the end, Flowey talks about Frisk in 3rd person. Still looking directly at us, but Frisk is no longer there. But we still are. I'm not saying that we're Chara, just that we're not Frisk.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.3) Being in control of the story doesn't equal possessing someone.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.4) So you actually agree with me that Asgore had no choice. Point closed.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.5) So you're saying the buttons exist in the overworld? As far as I'm concerned, they only exist in the HUD, and I've already explained that the HUD is meant to be for our eyes only. Therefore, there are no buttons in the overworld, and Asgore didn't smash anything at all. It was a metaphore. Point closed, because you will bring up your arguments about why the HUD is canon again anyways, and I'll just repeat the same thing.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.6, 4.7) Why do I think? Well, it's like that to help the player. Papyrus also explains to you what to do if you fail to jump. And I don't know how does standing still relate to kindness. I know that protecting the soul with something is an act of kindness, but apparently it's not a part of the mode. Like, I get that the blue human probably hopped around a lot, but they weren't cursed by it.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.8) So Sans can see the HUD. Point closed.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.9) How do you know that it's not like Napstablook can hear Chara only because they're both incorporeal? There is no proof of anyone hearing Chara except for Napstablook. And I can still say that Asgore didn't actually smash the button. It's hard to expain Sans's battle without the HUD, but it's easy with Asgore, since it can be interpreted as a metaphore.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.10) The fact that the game doesn't take place in 201X is a plot twist in itself. Saying that there's another plot twist and the game in fact DOES take place in 201X is nullifying the first plot twist. There is no proof that monsters use different calendars. The humans might be using a calendar which reaches 201X only after a long time has passed since 201X for monsters, but there's no proof of that. So it's better to just assume that both races use the same calendar for keeping time. Why would you want to complicate things like that? Just to prove me wrong?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.11) The entire turn system is nonsensical. Fights don't happen like that. They can't. I can't imagine a universe with such laws. It defies everything. People taking turns when fighting? Imagine martial arts going like that. This is why I think the entire HUD is bs when it comes to the overworld. It's simply not compatible with it. You can keep thinking that that's how fights in Undertale actually happen, that they're 100% identical to how they are presented to us. But I personally find it incredibly constricting. Why should the characters obey some battle system, why can't they be free like us? Because of a few 4th wall quirks? That's why I said I'm dismissing those.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And the metaphor represents Asgore refusing mercy and Frisk refusing to die like the other humans (by giving up) - both can be achieved by not sparing. So the button gets broken. But I also think it was done like that so that the player wouldn't try to spare Asgore. You know, so that they would realize the only way to go is fight.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.13) And I think the soul never leaves the body, it just starts glowing, it gets visible. Unless the HUD can break laws of physics, by doing something that wouldn't normally be possible.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.14) So you admit that being determined is not what heals Frisk? Point closed I'd say.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">5) So if they have a backstory, they must have lived on their own, meaning they still do during the game, since there's no proof of a player entity existing in the game, possessing Frisk. (Unless you say that the fall killed them or something and we took control of their body.) Therefore, it was all Frisk's decisions, and we just carried them out.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">5.1) Why would Sans summon darkness to start a battle with you if he's so skilled with the HUD as you say? Why can't he just enter a battle with Frisk directly? Why do you need to pull another thing into this?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">5.2) I meant to say that Sans can utilize the game's mechanics, WHILE not realizing he's in a videogame. Maybe the same is true for the real world too, who knows. How do you know that quarks aren't perhaps bytes on a computer? Anyways, point closed, this isn't going anywhere anymore.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">6) Why does Frisk want to leave the underground in the first place? They seem reeeeealy eager to leave the Ruins as soon as possible. It's not set that they are totally merciful. The only thing that is set is that they want to leave. And you still have that option when you reach the surface.