Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180728121818

"The game was likely there when Chara lived in the underground"

The text wouldn't be there then either, though. Chara still has no source.

"Can you explain why they say "hole"without using the red text in the genocide run then? (Warning they don't use red text for "hole"word when you can't play the ball game anymore in the genocide, which also implies this red text is related to the ball game)"

They don't care about that anymore in Genocide. All they see monsters are forgettable things that are just free EXP.

"Well why do you think the game associate some colours with some traits? Because in this universe perseverance is associated with purple etc.."

Yes, but that doesm't mean the monsters should be aware of that! We didn't automatically find out that the sun is literally just a star! They would have had to figure it out scientifically.

"Plus I don't think the monsters analysed the fallen children's behavior and concluded a specific trait. After all humans are supposed to be bad etc.. so do you think they would associate a human kid's behavior with kindness?"

Um.. No. The monsgers don't see all humans as bad. Just rather judgmental and foolish, banishing the monsters out of fear of a very real ability, that the monsters would certainly "never ever use" (because "love, hope, compassion"). Besides, the traits are just ways to get through obstacles. You can rush through obstacles and still be evil. You can have perservearance and still be evil. Nothing links them with (moral) goodness.

"Yeah but there's not any indication of writing on the flags I doubt Toby wouldn't put any indication in the narration too"

It's implied, though. Other games do this all the time.

"There's would be features or something as there's many words. Plus as you can see most of the Alphys's notes have a smaller sprite comparing to the flagshttps://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5MXZYY1ZHbVJkNWs/0B6gS2LPXdIc5bHRvVnp0eUk4TjQ/0B6gS2LPXdIc5U0t1enBfUElfUzA/0B6gS2LPXdIc5MXZWY3pqLUVNMFE/0B6gS2LPXdIc5dHFkck4xVUwyNXc/0B6gS2LPXdIc5M21uakswaUo4WGM?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5b2xkcTVISmZpLUU/0B6gS2LPXdIc5dmNyUWVCQUpRRDQ/0B6gS2LPXdIc5STZsekVqN0dyeFk/0B6gS2LPXdIc5OGJUZTJUTkh6MWs?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a"

Are you counting the pole? Because there's no writing on the pole, only in the triangular section, which I'm certain has less than 70 retro pixels.

"They have to keep that will, though. And that requires patience, perserveance, and bravery, depending on the situations. It also requires passion, which "care and concern" could also mean. Another definition is "firmness of purpose", which requires order, the opposite of chaos, and the yellow trait is defined as "surefire accuracy brought an end to the mayhem of BALL". Mayhem means either violent desctruction or chaos. So, we have a connection there. And finally, integrity. This is a connection by the red flag itself-You continue to be yourself. The blue flag defines integrity as "your original style pulled you through." That's being yourself. So, the red trait, determination, is a combination of the other six."

"Not only there is no indication that a mix of traits lead to determination trait"

I showed just how you need all six. And Red Flag 1 indicates that a mix of all traits is needed for the red trait.

"but if Frisk's trait was determination the narrator would say something like "by being determined regardless the obstacles you could reach your victory "(as tactics we use to win the ball game corresponds to  trait)"

Using all six traits is how you GET determined. Just like how rushing through obsacles is how you GET bravery.

"when Frisk get the ball in the hole but no the narrator says Frisk used all traits to win and not Determination."

Because determination IS combining all six traits.

"And I dont any connection between determination and others traits(such as kindness bravery integrity, justice etc... ) logically to have determination you only have to be determined to reach your goal."

Determination, the will to fight on. Firmed of purpose, resolution. The resolve to change fate. You have to be determined to reach your goal, and thus, you're passionate about doing it (green), you'll do it even if things get scary (orange), you'll push through no matter how hard it gets (purple), no matter how long you have to wait (cyan), gaining breat accuracy (yellow) over time, and to uphold the principals you put down, by being yourself (blue).

"And by the way Frisk doesn't used tactics that correspond to any trait, its only says Frisk used traits."

But the flag text and color shows there is a correspondancr.

"WHAT? Its rather the opposite of bravery since humans want to change their natural fate(death) because of fear"the will to keep living... the resolve to change fate let's call this power Determination ", in fact Alphys indicates that the will to keep living and the resolve fate are the same definition of determination but worded differently"

Refusing to revive yourself is essentially suicide. That's not bravery. But changing fate, standing up to make things better for yourself, to rush through those obstacles, without looking back? THAT'S bravery.

"Which means that the literal definition of determination is a characteristic of perseverance's souls and that its not a separated trait."

No, a characteristic of determination is the whole TRAIT of perserance, because determination is all six traits put together.

"And by the way there's no indication in the game that determination is a trait, there's substance which is a power"

No indication that it isn't, and no indication that Chara was ever a good guy. We only see them as a demon at the end of Genocide.

"I don't know about what you talking but I used this a possibility of why Chara is so determined in the game(after death)"

Exactly. A POSSBILITY. There's no indication within the game to support this.

Also, what I was doing here was using your own logic against you, showing you how it can be used to reach all sorts of wrong conclusions. ..You'll understand further down, because I'm about to make it really obvious what I'm doing.

"No its Frisk"this perfectly shaped lamp fills YOU with determination "the "you"is Frisk."

Yes, Frisk is filled from determination. But it's not from random objects, it's from the SAVE points.

"Plus the narrator always acknowledge when they wrongly describe what Frisk does"You laugh[...] wait you didn't do that? ", "Frogit's strength intimidate you. Just a kidding"but they doesn't in the save points which mean that what they describe in the save points is correct"

Frisk IS filled with determination all the same. It's just WHAT gave it to them that Chara got wrong.

"Where is the evidences that implies this power need time to affect the land? Seems like a headcanon you use as an argument."

Where is the evidence that implies Chara wasn't always a demon? Seems like a headcanon you use as an argument.

..See what I meant when I said it would be really obvious what I'm doing now?

Look. If the Barrier can stop it, then that means its range is an object, or a matrix set, or something with borders. Growing takes time. It takes time to add the aspects of the Surface to the file, and it takes time for area of influence to grow-It's an object, and bound by physics.

"And this power in fact exist in the surface too as the player can load their save point when Frisk is in the surface in the pacifist run"

We see Flowey just before then, though. And he said he was staying underground. That means we went back underground.

"Still the genocide can be gave up when you can't continue. And when you give up during Sans's fight you still in the genocide run as the point of no return is Mettaton's fight"

The next course of action Frisk does is reset, and try something else, to not fight Sans. All that time we spend not playing isn't canon. Frisk isn't canonically just standing there doing nothing for days on end as we take breaks. The world, and canon itself, is on pause. The time that we quit and the time that we restart happen right next to each other in canon. Frisk is always determined. Remember, when we're not playing, we're no longer Frisk.

"Yes because barrier is something visible where's the issue due("this is the barrier"-Asgore) ? We can clearly see the white wall is no longer here in the pacifist run when the barrier is destroyed and in the neutral end"

Right, no white wall in neutral end, because those are two different rooms. Asgore's room has the Barrier, and is beyond the purple door.

"That was what I said, the purple door is the same one in the both ends, my points were a recap of what happens. But a fact is a fact in neutral end we are in the other side of the barrier because the white wall is no longer here."

It's not the same room, of course we don't see a white wall. The white wall is past the purple door.

"And I dont understand what do you want to proove, do you want to proove that the room you get after Omega Flowey's fight is the same as the place where you fought Asgore? So where the white wall? Why theres a grace? And why there's a door in front of you?"

You effortlessly proved they can't be the same room. Good job

"Should I remember you that the barrier was created by the magicians in New home's side? Monsters moved from this place because of fear of humans"

Why did the monsters take their sweet little time building a door before getting banished? Why did the Mages LET them do that, essentially stalling for time, when that could be planning a way of escape, by running away without ever going into the Barrier when the Mages have to leave for food, water, sleep.. And if the Mages made it, WHY, when it has no reason to be used? Why does it have the Delta Rune symbol, which symbolizes the monsters' FREEDOM?

"If we reach the surface in sun rise that means the neutral end and the pacifist run happens in night logically before everyone cross the door, which explains the lack of light...."

"Twilight is shining through the barrier"-Text before Asgore fight

No, it's either dawn or dusk. So there should be twilight if the Surface is directly past the door, with nothing else before then. But there is no light.

"No seriosly what do you want to proove? Its clear and logical that Frisk cross the barrier but you try to contradict it for some non existent reasons"

Actually, Frisk crossing would be a plot hole. Barrier is locked by SOUL power, and Chara has no SOUL. But with this take on the matter, there is no plot hole.