Thread:Seralyna/@comment-5956954-20180510094348/@comment-5956954-20180621144432

Ombrophilia wrote:

yeah, i made an account because i didn't think i would have to get into a discussion about respecting trans people's wishes with somebody on the undertale fan wiki, but here we are. The evidence that I can find where keeping the information appropriately "respecting trans people's wishes" may harm someone like yourself is the misgendering I have mentioned before, which can come with psychological turmoil due to a past history with the name. Fortunately, the dotpoint does not mention the use of pronouns nor does it state to continue referring to this person by their deadname. Negative connotations and connections are out of the question. I require further proof that keeping a deadname ("a" being anyone's) will actually risk harm beyond controllable and reasonable subjectivity (if it is not too sensitive). Ombrophilia wrote:

i found this thread by google searching my deadname to see where it still exists and what i have to be worried about. it's an option available to literally any employer in the world, and if you can't see why that might be a problem for me then there's a fundamental misunderstanding going on of the prejudice trans people face in the world. I do not know the problem it poses for you, no. That is why I asked for an explanation which I did not receive. Beyond that, I have searched your two names on Google. I see multiple results on various websites, which I believe are not created by you. It would be impossible to identify you so long as you continue not to associate personal credibility with your online accounts.

I will attempt to explain a hypothetical perspective from that of an employer. If I were to see this abundance of results from Google as I attempt background checking for something that may discriminate you (which is illegal in the US under the FCRA and can be countered by the EEOC or similar), I would see multiple results that, upon scrolling, would not be able to reliably connect you with the previous name. If it does or is seen through more formal checks like "credit/criminal reports", then the issue would be more than the reveal of the deadname. If not, then it's for identification, tax, and reference purposes which do not risk avoidable psychological distress or employment chances.

From what I see as a different individual, I cannot find or connect the personal information that can be used for discriminatory purposes through google searches of your names. I personally would not bother to search further at that point and potentially focus on other background checks that require your consent, knowledge of what's on the report, and the right to dispute incorrect information. If I am mistaken, please let me know (or don't if it's too sensitive). Ombrophilia wrote:

i've gone to painstaking lengths to erase links between my deadname and my real name, and this is one of the last ones i have to deal with. I will also attempt to help however I reasonably can. I have applied the "&#95;_NOINDEX__" tag to the changelog page in an attempt to stop search engines and web spiders from indexing the results while still keeping the information on the page for those who are curious for the differences alone. If this does not work initially, then I will check to see how to update the cache version provided by archive systems, update them without the names, then prevent further indexing.

I am attempting to think of plans to satisfy respect and integrity, and I will continue trying until nothing else is reasonable. If necessary, I would need your help and cooperation. Ombrophilia wrote:

take my deadname off this wiki. my safety outweighs your need to have pristine, perfectly sourced data. I truly wish I could understand the actual danger of keeping the names would cause. I have googled how deadnames are harmful, transphobia itself, the status of the group in this world today, particularly the United States, what your rights are against employment discrimination (FCRA), and if there were further connections to the names that both concretely identify you and in thorough detail that can be used for full-blown discrimination. I cannot, which to me means if there are no further recounts or references to the names or other personal bits of information one would want to keep hidden for their safety, then I cannot see how an employer working quickly through various applications can dedicate themself to such a thorough non-legal search like I, a person with a lot of free time, have for 3 hours now. Ombrophilia wrote:

if you insist on some sort of source then https://twitter.com/ombrophilia/status/822659013271834624 is the tweet i made when i came out. That is not a source I was asking for, though I believe you are aware of that with this linked tweet. I see there is a lot of misunderstandings in these tweets, so I'll be commenting on them as well.

Hannah wrote:

christ, that fucker still is being an asshole about it? This language and attitude is consistent, which is why I am pointing it out. There is no reason to condemn me with words of ridicule or name-calling. Treat me with the respect I am giving you, as I am attempting to work with you. Ombrophilia wrote:

he sure as hell is!! i bet he just doesn't understand why his stone cold logic isn't swaying me, a woman, who only thinks emotionally I am not attempting to persuade you. I am attempting to persuade myself to believe without any reasonable doubt removing the names is the best action possible. I have mentioned this to Seralyna already ("I apologize if my opposing stance on your decision is intimidating. My purpose is to find out with you what the best objective course of action should be made in regards to this edit.") to make note I am cooperating and am willing to come to a compromise, but I need a sufficient reason to remove a non-antagonistic and rule-abiding detail. Otherwise, it compromises the integrity of the wiki for a purpose that has not been proven to be a risk. Hannah wrote:

he wanted... a primary source... like, what the fuck, there literally cannot be a source more primary than you! You are correct. That is why I asked for verification. Otherwise, there is the reasonable assumption that the Wiki Celene was impersonating the real Celene. I am not trying to make changes or negotiations to be difficult. I just wanted reliable and unquestionable proof so I may use it to speak for Celene in case people do attempt to argue why the information was omitted. It's like banning closed-source citations. If they cannot be accessed by the public for free, then the content within can be disputed and manipulated to force people to purchase a potential lie. Ombrophilia wrote:

he wants proof i am who i say i am because i only made my account to comment on this thread :') Hannah wrote:

what... the fuck. what does he want, your fucking id? toby fox to descend from on high and tell him he's a fucking shitbag and to change it? Ombrophilia wrote:

yeah to both lol If you read my request carefully, I asked if "there was a way for you to verify that you are indeed the same Celene?" This could be done this way, which you have. Therefore, I am now 100% certain it is you, and things can proceed normally with that fact. Please do not misrepresent what I have said. ♔ tsareena ♔ wrote:

yeah just to be clear he LITERALLY wants both from cel lol, that's not even exaggerating. he said so in the thread Let me clear the confusion: Seralyna wrote:
 * 1) I wanted proof that it was the same Celene, which could be any way I can know it is the real Celene, like a tweet saying "doing this to confirm" or similar. I did not as for an "ID" or anything like a credit card, social security number, etc.
 * 2) There is apparently a negative stigma in saying I will seek out Toby Fox (if I have to) for the confirmation if I cannot find it anywhere else. Remember that I would not bother to do this because it goes against my self-interest. I am, however, because I am attempting to reach a compromise that benefits everyone. I apologise the intended message was unclear to people.

Im super sorry this is happening, I was getting extremely frustrated just reading his responce so I cant imagine how you feel I apologise for frustrating you. What needs to be understood, however, is that you're reading a discussion about a change made on a wiki that anyone can edit. If someone disputes the edit, they have the right to speak about it however they can and to have their decision and reasons respected (which does not mean it overrides better reasons and/or consensus). You are free to criticise me and my thoughts, but it has to be with respect and contributes to the further understanding of the discussion and progress to a consensus among those interested. Ombrophilia wrote:

it's okay <3 i'm sorry that i dragged it out on your userpage, honestly, if he keeps replying i'll ask him to move it elsewhere I was conforming to the conditions you have agreed on. You could have asked earlier to move this conversation somewhere else like a private chat on Discord. Since you have not, it is assumed the discussion will continue here unless you set up an environment (that does not put one at an advantage) that will be appropriate to transition to with reference to this location.

I will repeat what my plans are (mentioned in my last message) above with the inclusion of the Google Cache refresh. If I am to continue, however, I ask everyone to be reasonable, respectful, and not to attach negative stigma that risk bias and "meatpuppetry". Do not use straw man fallacies either, which is misrepresenting what I actually said to make it easier to knock down. I am not misrepresenting or twisting what you are saying for my personal gain, and I expect the same to be done for my messages. Celene, I will also continue to stress the streisand effect because connecting yourself further to personal attributions and making it public further will both be self-destructive to your wishes and cause a "psychological reactance", which noted by the linked Wikipedia page makes the internet reveal and connect more information. If you wish to continue the discussion to somewhere secluded and/or private if it requires revealing more (if you wish), I can make the arrangements if you cannot. Other than that, I hope my response was not too long, and I hope to hear you back soon!