Thread:Mabian/@comment-4383275-20160827050912/@comment-4383275-20160827203535

Mabian wrote: If I recall correctly, you acknowledged that Toby may not even have originally intended that Sans actually be Ness, but that the theory is valid because of the nature of subjective interpretation. I should remark at the outset that this is a position that I flatly deny. The benchmark of truth with respect to an artistic work has to be the original intention of the creator. An interesting pespective! Yes, I think we can work with these parameters to some extent.

But insofar as there is any room for discussion about the interpretation, it must revolve around the standard of whether the theory itself was what Toby had intended. If we move away from this standard, then there won't be a point of connection for our discussion.

The problem arises, however, that if Toby's true intent was indeed to link EarthBound and Undertale, he may be liable for a lawsuit. The only thing preventing that from happening is the veil of vagueness that currently separates both of those games. We can never know what Toby truly intended, nor would it be in his best interest to intervene in this discussion: the longer people keep talking, the more publicity his game gets. Therefore, any evidence we gather would have to be derived from a series of incredibly subtle clues.

So with that rather long intro out of the way, I'll get to your points:

"Badge"

Given that there is no description of what the badge looks like, and it has no defining characteristics other than being a badge, it is a bit of a stretch to jump only to the conclusion that it is the Franklin Badge. It certainly could be, but presumably if Toby had wanted to signal that it was the Franklin Badge, he could have placed some sort of descriptor, such as "There is a badge with a strange lightning bolt on it," or something like that. A subtle reference for those who know, without being too obvious. You have a point! However, the badge is not the sole piece of evidence linking Sans to Ness, It's not just "a badge," it's "a badge in a world that looks virtually identical to that of EarthBound." By process of elimination, this can only be the Franklin Badge. And who has the Franklin Badge at the end of EarthBound? Ness.

"Courage being similar to Determination in its analysis and properties"

On the first point, the initial similarity doesn't quite seem to hold up. From my limited memory of Earthbound, courage does not play any role in the act of saving (since you save by having your father record your adventure), whereas the entire point of saving in Undertale is that specific spots fuel the protagonist's determination which allows them to create a sort of anchor in the world. Nor does courage have any other major role in the world itself.

Courage revives Ness upon death (" decided to return after summoning all the courage and energy he had") and is studied scientifically, just as Determination is (see MatPat's video).

"Surface world of Undertale looks virtually identical to the world of Earthbound"

This I think is the single strongest point, but once again I return to the question of its significance. Assuming that it is indeed supposed to be the same world, is it the same world because Toby intended to literally say that Undertale occurs in the same universe that the Mother series does, or is it just another subtle nod to a game that he loves? Even if it is the former, it in itself cannot prove that Sans is Ness, since the idea would be that the monsters existed in the background during the entire Mother series, offering us nothing about where Sans himself came from (with the null hypothesis being that he was originally a monster born in the Underground).

Monsters made of dust did, in fact, appear in the Mother games. Specifically, in the first game (Mother, EarthBound Beginnings, etc.), there is an enemy called a Dust Ghost that does not attack the player at any point until it is about to die. Likewise, in Undertale, monsters do not seem to have an innate desire to attack the player despite doing so in order to save their own skins.

The Dust Ghost also existed around a century prior to The War of Humans and Monsters, during which time it may have grown into many different forms. After all, being made of dust, it is not bound by the laws of evolution or metamorphosis if it wants to change its shape.

Sans' attacks in the Genocide Run "drain" damage, the way it was "drained" in Earthbound

I'm not sure how much significance we can draw from this either. One of the key issues of any game designer in creating a purposefully difficult fight is not making it impossible (or not making it feel impossible). Since one of the key points about the rolling HP counter in Earthbound is that it allows you to defeat an enemy before it rolls down to 0 and thus survive a massive attack, the design points don't seem to match up. After all, KR never reduces your HP to 0, and the battle is scripted, so there would be no way to use the draining to your advantage by defeating Ness before you died: you either take too much damage, or you don't. The drain from KR seems instead to be a way to make the battle less difficult while retaining the key parts about Sans (i.e. doing only 1 damage; ignoring invincibility frames; being generally tough). Preventing Sans' fight from being impossible is certainly a utility of Karmic Retribution, but the way it never reduces the player's HP to zero parallels the "Guts" stat in EarthBound: if the player has a high Guts stat, an attack that would normally kill them will leave them with 1 HP. And defeating Sans while your health is draining is impossible, like you said, but since the fight is scripted, the player's health is drained to 1 before the final hit in order to increase dramatic tension and make a greater spectacle of the final hit.

Sans bleeds and breathes ("blood" was hypothesized to be ketchup, but why would it come out of his mouth if Sans keeps it in his jacket pocket?)

Although I think it equally becomes a problem if Sans is presumed to be anything other than Ness in disguise, such as the revenant theory below, since any monster made out of dust should not spew out blood (and blood would definitely be an organic material that should be destroyed by the Phase Distorter). Sans' blood also may have turned to dust due to the effects of the Phase Distorter (notice how Undyne's and Toriel's innards are hollow when they are struck down).

As for breathing, it was pointed out by another user in the thread that Papyrus also breathes (he huffs if you get all the way through his battle), and he also is capable of producing tears. Since the point about Sans's breathing is meant to indicate that he does things that a skeleton shouldn't do, thus proving that he is not an actual skeleton, the point appears to fall apart in light of the fact that Papyrus does many of the same things (the only difference being the "bleeding"). I remember that. However, while Sans also "huffs" and "puffs" verbally, his sprite physically moves up and down with each breath. Papyrus' does not, which begs the question: what exactly is the deal with Papyrus? Is he just a skeleton, as the game implies? If so, how can he sweat? More on this below.

For point 3, the mechanism for Ness turning into a revenant is not explained. Gaijin Goomba's video does a lot to point out the similarities between Sans and revenants, and as such makes a good case that Sans's design is based on the myth of revenants. But there is no mechanism described for how a human turns into a monster in general, much less for the specific case of Sans turning into a revenant. After looking it up for myself, I've found out that in ancient European folklore, revenants could come back for a number of reasons. If they were summoned back to life through sorcery, for instance, they would have their original, human soul, as mentioned in Gaijin Goombah's video, but not if they came back on their own. Some corpses were said to have come back as revenants naturally, if they are not exhumed upon death. This latter narrative would fit Ness' transformation into a revenant, as his corpse could not have been exhumed while he was in the Phase Distorter.

In addition, I would need some more clarification on the Phase Distorter and what it is meant to do to organic matter. All I remember is that the organic matter would be destroyed generally, but not what would specifically happen to it. If it didn't simply disintegrate matter, but made it completely disappear, then there wouldn't be any dust to reconstitute Ness. That's the problem--we don't know. All we can gather on the effects of the Phase Distorter on organic matter is that organic beings do not survive usage of the Phase Distorter. A real-world analogue to the effects of the Phase Distorter may be a fire or explosion, which would only affect organic matter. In this case, we do certainly know what would remain: a charred corpse or, at the very least, ash.

As for point 4, the major problem is explaining why Sans bothers to essentially adopt Papyrus as a brother and treat him as a genuine sibling. This goes back to the point about Sans and Papyrus breathing. Just what is Papyrus? The way I see it, some options are:

1. Reconstituted Starman remnants (like the Remnants seen in the EarthBound Halloween Hack)

2. A random skeleton who received some Starman armor from Sans and incorporated it into his "Battle Body"

3. One of the Eight Humans in reincarnated skeleton form

4. Someone/something else

We know that both Sans and Papyrus appeared in the underground suddenly and "just...asserted themselves," according to the shopkeeper in Snowdin. We also know that Papyrus doesn't know what the Sun is, making the third option unlikely. His limbs are also very stiff when he moves, and he does so unnaturally, much like a Starman.

That's all I can think of for right now, though I think it should be sufficient for an initial reply. Certainly! I appreciate your time and look forward to continuing this discussion.