Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190820122909/@comment-32182236-20190930184550

Alphys evacuating everyone to the True Lab, where the Dimensional Portal is located, would be the first logical step in transporting the monster refugees to another dimension where Chara couldn't get them.

That does appear to work... Now that I think of it, the portal would have to be in a place where Frisk couldn't get to.. Otherwise they could just go in there and kill the evacuees.

So it'd have to be somewhere where Frisk couldn't reach. So we have the True Lab.

Gaster's technology must have been from another world. The monsters, using their garbage studies, have access to the human technology of the world above.

That rules out him getting it from the humans. I never argued he got them from the humans.

In this world above, anime isn't real. Toriel knows that. The surface humans in Undertale's world have technology similar to our own world of the same year.

The surface humans are in our current era during the events of Undertale, yes.

And yet, suddenly, real anime tech appears sometime after the start of 201X, and suddenly dimensional travel and cell phone jet packs become possible.

Yes. So there must have been some kind of revolution. But how do we know it was sudden? I'd imagine that Gaster showed up decades before 201X, and he gradually (but still faster than humans!) progressed monster technology.

Some of his tech may have even remained after his fall, but anything that wouldn't last for ~100 years should disappear. And even those that do remain, it could be that nobody really knows how to use it. It might even be how the machine broke.

...Though I'm not going to say it is, and I still think the machine breaking happened during the accident that erased Gaster. That the machine breaking was somewhere in the chain of events that lead to Gaster being shattered across time and space.

The "accident".

The monsters with their medeval society and Libarby are not known for innovating tech on their own. Yet suddenly they have access to wonders far beyond what even the surface humans have.

Clearly, whoever brought them this new tech had to be a genius. Someone with so much intelligence, that he'd outshine everyone else!

The Riverperson established that Gaster, the Man Who Speaks In Hands, is The Man From The Other World that we should beware. And he came to this world as Sans' traveling compansion, to invesitgate The Anomaly.

They established that there is a man who speaks in hands, a man from the other world, and that we should beware them. Or him, depending on whether or not you think they're the same person.

So no. Gaster isn't an Undertale Monster. He's from another time and place, and either learned how to work with Determination by experiementing on himself and Sans, or had already researched it back in his home dimension, which must have had humans in it.

The first is far more plausible. We shouldn't expect the "other world" to have the same laws as Undertale. The monsters did not research this future tech on their own, as you claim. Two tech sources: Human Garbage and Gaster, are presented in the lore. And each one is very distinct from the other. This cannot be a conincidence. It's evidence for establishing the timeline.

Gaster did. And yes, Gaster did not use the human's tech. He made those revolutions on his own. He is the missing source. Why do we have to add an extra layer to it? Why can't Gaster just be the super-genius that the Gaster Followers say he is, and that's it?

One evevator can take you from The True Lab right to Asgore's Castle. These places are connected.

Well, Gaster is the Royal Scientist.

The Core is where Gaster preformed his various research, and is the creation he fell into. Gaster was shattered in The True Lab. Which is definitely part of the Core complex.

Okay, how do you know that the True Lab is where he shattered? Can you provide evidence for this claim?

Memoryhead seems to have six heads in it. While there does seem to be a link to Gaster in some fashion, I wonder if this might be residue from The Six Human Souls?

Maybe Memoryhead was injected with determination from all six humans.

Gaster performing (or knowing about) Determination Research before Chara's fall is not a paradox. It's surfire evidence that Gaster did have Determination to study before this time.

You're right, it's not a paradox. A paradox means we got something wrong. Which simply means that Gaster didn't perform the DT experiments. When something leads to a paradox, it doesn't mean there's a problem with the game, like some might claim (it's a good thing neither of us claim that), it means the thing that lead to the paradox is incorrect.

But yes, that would imply that Gaster had determination before then. Which I hypothesis would have likely came from the monsters, or himself. He wouldn't get that much, but it might at least be enough to know what determination is, and how it works. If he finds out its composition, he might even be able to make some... artifically.

Somehow, someway, Gaster has had contacts with humans before Chara fell.

And it can't be a human that fell into the Underground, at least not after the war, considering that Chara was the first to be found.

Though it could be that other humans DID fall before Chara... But from the other entrance. Then, the one-way door could have made it impossible for humans to make it to the Ruins, ergo, they starved. (We could say they actually died from dehydration, but surely, the water at Waterfall would suffice, right?)

Since Sans seems to be a human, and Gaster was his traveling companion, and one of Gaster's follows is holding a talking human head that it says is a piece of him, I don't think it's a stretch to say Gaster was probably human too.

Only skeleton heads can talk. We know skeleton heads can talk because Papyrus' head was able to talk.

Human heads? They wouldn't be able to talk. They'd be DEAD.

This is clearly a skeleton head. It might look different than Sans and Papyrus (who are also quite different from each other in their own right), but a skeleton head still makes more sense than a human head. Besides, if my hypothesis is correct, Sans is a Darkner.

While I agree with you that Chara was not the first human to vanish on Mout Ebbott, and that a civilization existed before Asgore's Kingdom that also seems to have been sealed underground and escaped somehow, Chara was certainly the first human to publicly arrive during Asgore's civilzation. Asgore has no stored human souls until the Six Human followed after Chara's death.

I don't recall actually stating that. I have responded to that claim, however.

I do remember talking about the legends that say that those who climb never return, someone proposing Chara wasn't the first, getting "debunked" by saying Chara was the first to VANISH.. But that doesn't mean they weren't the first human to show up in the Underground.. Since they could have arrived, say, though a Phase Distorter.

But I pointed out that that was backwards. Chara was the first to arrive Underground and be known by the monsters.. That's the fact. And it is possible that Chara wasn't the first to VANISH.

So we shouldn't be wondering why nobody vanished before Chara. We should be wondering why nobody showed up in the Underground before Chara. And Sans and Papyrus showing up before Chara does not explain this.

Though I do think someone was in the Underground before the war. It's the only way to explain the Waterfall statue. Which I believe represents the Angel from the Surface. The generic Angel from the Surface, because nobody knew exactly who the angel from the Surface was.

Then again, this was the Delta Rune. There could have easily been an Alpha, a Beta, and a Gamma. I wonder if there's an Epsilon...

So this still means that if Gaster had knowledge of Determination before Chara's fall, he must have had contact with humans before this time.

Or he could have seen humans. Maybe the reason why we don't see any bodies of people who died prior to Chara's fall is because Gaster used THEM.

And there's still the many, many other possibilities I proposed.

I'm quite sure that Gaster and Sans did not want to advertize their status as humans. That's what the disguises are for.

So why would Sans pick a disguise that can easily be seen thorough by the monsters, on sight? Since you argue that Papyrus could see Sans as a human through pure sight?

Sans tells us he ventured here to investigate The Anomaly.

No, he only says that their findings have spotted an anomaly. He never specifies where on the timeline that is. All we can say for sure is that these findings happened before the scattering of Gaster.

Although Sans has seen the surface before, and knows what The Sun is, he doesn't consider the surface above The Underground to be his home. He lists The Surface and Home has two seperate things.

He never even specified a "home". He said he wanted to "go back". And that DOESN'T mean going to the Surface.

If his home is right here in the Underground, the line still makes sense. Sans might have wanted to go back to before Gaster's fall.

Sans traveled here, to the Underground, along with someone else. That's why he said "We".

"We" was referring to the team that spotted the anomaly. We have no context on what lead to them researching these timelines, nor what they did after they found the results. And I'm convinced the reason why Sans is so lazy now is because of the ramifications of these results. After all, as he says..

" cause even if we do... we'll just end up right back here, without any memory of it, right? to be blunt... it makes it kind of hard to give it my all. ... or is that just a poor excuse for being lazy...? hell if i know. "-Sans

And if Sans had been the inventor of The Silver Key Machine, likely the vehicle used to make this trip, he could have repaired it himself. Instead, the machine remains broken.

I do not disagree that Gaster made the Silver Key Machine. What we disagree about is why he built the Silver Key Machine, and what that machine actually is.

I think the Silver Key Machine is the same machine that Sans and Gaster used to make those analyses. A machine that allows one to analyze the many timelines. You think it's the Phase Distorter.

"We" does mean Gaster's team. The team of Gaster and Sans. Two humans from another world.

I do think it's Gaster's team. We disagree on what "Gaster's Team" actually IS. I think the Gaster Followers were also included as part of the team, which is part of why they got a fate different from the rest of the Underground.

The Gaster Blasters were indeed invented.. by Gaster late in the Alpha Timeline, around when he recorded his version of Entry 17. Sans and Papyrus took Gaster Blasters back to the past with them when they went back in time to created The Beta Timeline. And this adventure, somehow, resulted in Beta Gaster's early death before Chara even arrived. I said the Gaster Blasters were never invented in Frisk/Undertale's timeline, and we don't find any evidence of them in The True Lab. They were brought from another timeline to here, after being invented by Alpha Gaster.

Why should we find them in the True Lab? They're magical constructs that vanish when your turn is over.

I don't think Gaster is chilling in the True Lab, keeping those Gaster Blasters around.

Though at I know that your take is consistent.

If Alphys was an understudy of Gaster, she would have certainly been immediately tapped as his replacement upon his death.

No she wouldn't have. How would Asgore know that Alphys worked for the Royal Scientist, when nobody knows who the Royal Scientist even was?

Even Alphys wouldn't remember working for Gaster.

Instead.. Asgore had to search far and wide for years to find any monster who could even approach Gaster's ability, and finally settled for Alphys. Alphys was not originally part of Gaster's party. She's exploring his abandoned laboratory and gradually uncovering secrets she was not privy too before.

She forgot all of Gaster's secrets. She forgot everything about Gaster. Everyone forgot everything about Gaster, except for Sans and the Followers. Because Sans isn't from Undertale's world, and thus wasn't affected by the memory retcon, and the Followers have shared Gaster's fate of being gone.

Though there's probably a reason why he had to make that note saying "don't forget". If he did forget, he'd have no way of getting the information back, because it'd be lost. It doesn't exist anymore. Gaster is gone.

My main assumption about the two Entry 17's is that they were both indeed recorded at the same time... in two different timelines. With Alpha Gaster recording his time-lost version in the original timeline, and Alphys recording her own version in the Beta Timeline where Gaster had been long dead.

While my assumption is that Gaster's list and Alphys' list are two completely different lists, because a new writer would logically start at one. It's their first entry. It doesn't matter that Gaster wrote before Alphys, Alphys would still start with Entry 1. It does seem like Alphys and Sans are working together in the True Lab Entries, since some of the entries are all in lower-case. Which is Sans' trademark.

Perhaps. It could be how they got to know each other. I still think the reason that they know each other is ultimately lost to time, because they met as partners in Gaster's team. Which no longer exists.

So, what would it look like for the time you met to have been erased from your memory.. Yet the events of it remained? You would have known each other.. without an origin. So, if someone asked how you guys met, and when you try to think about it, you're just in a mental void..


 * 1) JMP #5A8C3A3DF03E


 * 1) 5A8C3A3DF03E:NLL

In the Alpha timeline... Alphys would have been around at the time of The Darkest Experiment, since she's clearly around at that time in the Beta timeline. ... so it is possible that Alphys could have been in Gaster's party in the Alpha Timeline.

Right. It makes perfect sense.

Although, if Alphys was part of the team on the eve of The Darkest Experiment, why did only Sans and Papyrus travel to the past together, leaving Alpha Alphys behind?

Because nobody traveled to the past.

Papyrus was certainly there. And Papyrus took the trip with Sans. So although Alphys might have been active at this point in the Alpha Timeline, I still don't think she was one of the two others in the room with Gaster. This does look like a Font Brigade meeting.

There was no trip!

..You know, maybe I should just focus on finishing my interlude. Then I can get through the rest of my analysis, do the simulation, and you'll understand why I say that there was no trip. Remember the rules of the simulation:It assumes that your entire theory is true.. And then simulates the effects of your narrative. So maybe after we find out what that would look like.. (And watch the simulation glitch out), you'll see why I don't believe in this hypothesis. As I've said, it has to do with the many paradoxes that find themselves in the Alpha Timeline.

Early-Alpha, to be more specific. It'll crash before we even get to Gaster's fall!

Saving and Loading allows someone to time traveling within their own timeline.. but I don't think it allows someone to rewind time back to before the Barrier was cast.

The idea is to reverse-engineer it. See how it works, and see if we can manipulate these effects. Maybe create an artificial SAVE file that links to the time before the Barrier.

I do think Alphys was trying to find away to dimensionally bypass the barrier as you described. But for whatever reason, it never succeeded, and she eventually had to turn to soul energy research instead.

Which doesn't make sense. If you go back to before the Barrier, it will succeed. There's no reason why it wouldn't. In fact, I'd say that this is what the Gaster Blasters were meant for-Once they returned, and probably got attacked by humans again, the humans would get blasted with the Gaster Blasters, and the monsters get to claim the territory.

And somehow, these ancient monsters, trapped in a realm with no entrances or exists, developed a means to harness monster soul power to eventually overpower their barrier and escape.

I don't think there was a Barrier.

I do think the civilization existed-After all, the statue had to come from somewhere. But if the Barrier was broken before, I don't think the humans would just let the monsters get off with another one.

In fact, I believe the humans knew how the monsters were able to survive underground, and this is why the humans specifically chose Ebott as the amount to banish them into. They knew the monsters would survive.

They were looking for peace, not genocide.

Perhaps the ancient monsters found Determination from a hybrid monster? A child of Kanashi perhaps, that first monster who absorbed a human soul?

Or they were never trapped in the first place. They could have just been visiting. Maybe the prophecy used to have much more information, and they knew that THIS was the mountain they would be banished in, so THIS is where they should build the statue of the Angel to free them.

CoolSkeleton95 couldn't have been born in 2095 because in 2095 monster technology would have progressed to a similar point their surface humans had.

I've already responded to this one, though that was after this post, so I can't blame you for this one.

2095 PF. ~199X AD.

Remember that she thought all the Fallen Monsters were normal cases, going in. Yet dying of old age doesn't explain why so many younger monsters were effected. Or why, unlike Undyne, none of the Fallen seemingly developed super powers from exposure to Determination.

The Fallen DO have super-powers.

They literally can't die. Undyne will die if pushed to the limit. The Fallen will never die, no matter how much you fight. Some can even GAIN HP by being attacked.

They're far more powerful than Undyne. Because they have far more determination.

As for the Shyren.. I'll just repeat what I said in Round 6.

Since even after killing Shyren, we see a Shyren telling the story of Asriel, we know there's more than one, and we're not sure if the Shyren whose sister is an Amalgamate is the same Shyren who was afraid to sing. This could be an older Shyren.. One who WAS of old age.

The same reasoning applies to Aaron-We shouldn't assume it's the same Aaron we encounter-In fact, it can't be:If it was, we wouldn't encounter Aaron-He's an Amalgamate, remember?

So Amalgamate Aaron could just be an older member of the species Aaron.

So really, we have no reason to assume that the Amalgamates were too young to Fall Down.

Alphys might not even know that Undyne has Determination. She hurriedly confessed she just used the seagrass a human died in to make ice cream. Keeping track of what characters do and don't know is crucial for unraveling a mystery.

That implies she thinks all the determination that Undyne has was gotten from somewhere else. Though I do think she never compared the Fallen to Undyne. I do think she's aware that Undyne has some determination, simply because of what determination is. Technically, everyone has a non-zero amount of determination. One cannot be living without determination. It's just that humans have far, far more.

I'm sure both Alphys and Gaster planned on using a non-sentient flower as a vessel for something they could easily control.

I'd imagine that Gaster would inject himself with determination. So that he could gain the humans' abilities for himself. Knowing what the ability looks like to the humans would help a lot. It might even be why his face on the MysteryMan sprite looks melted!

...Oh, you were referring to the Seven SOULs plan. In that case, Gaster would need a vessel.. But I don't think he'd go with a vessel connected to Asriel's essence. I'm just wondering what makes you think he picked the same flower, and at the same time as Alphys did. It's far more likely he picked a DIFFERENT flower, at a DIFFERENT time.

Having high concentrations of Asriel's dust, infused with Chara's soul, on that flower may have been an unforseen complication.

It definitely would be for Alphys, but I'm sure Gaster would at least know the basics on monster essence. Is there not a science of the SOUL that would be studied? (I propose we call it psychonomy. I would say psychology, to keep with the standard name of naming branches of science, but that name's already taken. Just like astrology was already used when wanted to name the study of the heavens, astronomy.)

We know Gaster created flowey, because Flowey animated after Entry 17 on the parralell timelines.

...I'm still not convinced the parallel timelines even exist. And I still think it was solely Alphys' experiments and Asriel's dust that created Flowey.

Recall that the flower Alphys got was the first one, but also, "the one Alphys had no idea where Flowey went.

"The first golden flower, that grew before all the others. The flower from the outside world."-Alphys

The other golden flowers Alphys used must have grown after the first, and from the first, since this is THE flower from the outside world, i.e-The only one. So it's the ancestor of every flower we see now, which have grown less than 2 years before the events of Undertale.

Also note that this first flower must have been brought from seeds from Asriel. Asriel's dust was all over that seed, since he was the one who ended up bringing it to the Underground. It would have centered there.

The rest of it would have gone across the garden, on the non-golden flowers. And all the flowers we see Alphys using are golden flowers. Not the original flowers from Asgore's garden, pre-death.

Flowers that grew AFTER the dust had already been absorbed, and wouldn't get any dust. So no Asriel essence.

The only way to create a second living flower from Asriel's dust is to use the flowers that were there when Asriel died. I wonder what it'd look like, though. If Asriel's essence was brought back to life.. As two separate organisms.

Alphys wasn't controlling flowey. It's as if Gaster's Darkest Experiment somehow woke Flowey up across timelines.

Of course she wasn't. ASRIEL was controlling Flowey. Because Asriel is Flowey.

He's controlling Flowey the same way we control our bodies.

And Elevator Voice, who somehow claims they haven'ted talked to us in a long time, while Flowey frequently has, is the same voice that comes out of Hyperdeath Asriel.

Stop adding those extra words to the dialogue. The Elevator Voice only says "it's been a long time". Not "it's been a long time since we've met". When will you cut those extra words out of the dialogue? He was probably referring to the fact that it's been a long time since that previous plan failed.

The key point is that Gaster's technology did not come from the humans on the surface. It must have come from another world entirely, along with Gaster.

That's a false dichotomy. Just because it didn't come from the humans doesn't mean it came from another world. They could be Gaster's original inventions.

And watching the impact of this event on the monster world tells us many things. Like why they lost their fear of the surface humans.

I still think the catch about never being able to leave if a human went in is what lead to the fear being lost.

I suppose Sans and Gaster could have been using different costumes when they first visited the monsters. I'm just keeping with the ghost and skeleton costumes to keep things simple.

Given the nature of the Gaster Blaster, and how we see Gaster as Mysteryman, Gaster should be wearing yet another skeleton costume. He talks in a font, like a skeleton. Not like a ghost. He wouldn't make such a clear inconsistency.

It wouldn't be possible for Gaster to collect the souls of non-boss monsters, unless he had a source of human Determination he could inject into the monsters to make their souls persist long enough after death to be collected.

Maybe Gaster is the reason why the Boss Monsters are near-extinct.

Seriously, there's only two left.

Determination research was all about collecting monster soul power as a means to break the Barrier, from the beginning. It's what Sans and Alphys were working on in the Beta timeline, and what Gaster must have been working on during the original Alpha timeline.

That timeline machine used for the analysis must have been made for some reason. And Gaster needed SOME motivation to time-travel.

Seriously, why couldn't some of it have been to replicate Save/Load/Reset? Sans didn't object to Alphy's approach of slowly collecting souls from dying monsters over a long period of time. Gaster must have been trying something different, for Sans to object to it so strongly.

Or Sans didn't object at all. There's that possibility too.

How did Frisk end up in the ruins, without a costume? I don't know.

And I argue that there is simply no possible reason as to how it could have happened.

I think the nature of The Anomaly is that, somehow, Sans and Chara crossed fates. And somehow Chara (us, the player) got control of Frisk/Beta Sans. Sans wants to help his earlier self. But Frisk really isn't in control anymore, and Sans isn't sure what type of person The Player is. So, he tests us.

Chara acts separately from us. If you want to keep claiming that the Player is Chara, explain why Chara talks to us, making it crystal clear that the player is NOT Chara?

Perhaps rewinding the timeline blurred the lines between Sans and Chara somehow?

Rewinding the timeline shouldn't lead to blurring the lines between two separate characters. Unless Frisk IS Chara, this makes no sense. <span class="green"Flowey gets reset physically each time you start a new game. But he always remembers details of the old game in that intro. The only way to wipe all of his memories is to do a True Reset. And he can't remember how often you've done that, so he just assumes it's hundreds of times.

That's right. And it's even explained how the two work.

Sans describes loading as pulling everyone back to where they are, with no memories. You're not traveling through time, you're restoring the world to the state it was in before. This is how it's possible have glimpses of memories after a reset. You've been through it all before.

Flowey describes Reset as completely erasing the timeline, and bringing everyone to a new timeline. This is why the FUN value changes.

I imagine that a True Reset would involve erasing the memories as well, much like what happened to Gaster.