Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20171226010621

Starscream1998 wrote:

Tsskyx wrote: You really think they defeated Asriel with their bare hands? Um no, where did I state that? They defeated them with words not bare hands, I would've thought that as Mr 'I know this game' you'd figure out bare hands don't do diddly squat against Asriel. No, Frisk beats him with words and endurance...let that sink in. Also, did you just not see how Frisk's soul casually put itself together after breaking. You know, breaking in two that thing a soul does before it dies? I don't know about you but I don't really see how 'death defiance' could've been more obvious unless Toby wrote it in big capital letters.

Your theory is basically "so uh yeah Frisk's soul trait isn't determination he just doesn't have one probably or maybe we never know I mean it's not like the one defining attribute of this character with very little personality hasn't been determination." Yeah okay I don't see a problem with that. You're so right man, what am I doing here on this theory board which you are also on but you didn't conveniently include that detail.

Yeah better luck next time. ''"Suuuure, the Human powerful enough to defeat a literal God hasn't got a SOUL trait yeah I don't see a problem with that statement." ''

"Frisk beats him with words and endurance" 

I mean... you sure are skilled at contradicting yourself.

''"Also, did you just not see how Frisk's soul casually put itself together after breaking." ''

Now this is an interesting point. You see, why do you think Frisk's soul breaks other times, but doesn't break right there? Well, we know that Asriel wanted to Reset the timeline right there during that battle. If Frisk were to die, he would succeed. So the soul didn't shatter exactly because of this, because Asriel was in the control of the timeline already and therefore we couldn't reload as per usual (remember, as Omega Flowey, he already WAS in control of the timeline, but now, he's even MORE powerful - so that's proof that he indeed was in control of the timeline right there, just like he was when he was Omega Flowey - except with the difference that this time, he wanted to Reset the timeline, not to torture Frisk endlessly by Loading and Saving over and over again - in fact, in his God of Hyperdeath form, he didn't do that even a single time!).

Anyways, as I was saying, since Frisk  couldn't reload as per usual, t he only remaining option was to persist. In all other cases, it simply shattered. However, that's in fact not giving up either! Frisk is very determined, the action of their soul shattering indeed does serve a purpose. Giving up would be akin to giving the soul to the monsters - just like the 6 other humans did. But Frisk's soul shattered each time, allowing them to reload. That was the purpose of the shattering, to return and not give the soul to the monsters. And since this move wasn't possible during Asriel's battle, the soul was LITERALLY forced to do the only other thing possible - to defy the HP counter itself. All because of determination.

So, their soul did defy death, but it was because they didn't want to die, but didn't want to Reset either. Out of determination to defy those two, Frisk's soul picked a third route, and that was, to simply ignore death itself, to de facto cheat the system.

The question however is, why didn't their soul do this during Omega Flowey's battle, or during Asgore's battle, or anywhere else? What's so special about Asriel?

Well... it's just that. Asriel is special. I think Frisk likes him. They wanted to help him. Plus, they've been most likely getting encouraged by Chara to continue, assuming the narrator Chara theory is true.

So, now that we have all of this cleared up, let me drop the bomb.

All of the other humans would be able to do the exact same thing.

But they didn't. Not because they didn't have the same potential as YOU may think, but rather because they didn't get a chance to get so determined. They didn't meet so many close friends, they were probably straight up HUNTED for their soul... Frisk was lucky. When they entered the undergroud, the monsters were mostly chilled already, not really wanting to witchhunt anyone for anything. Probably because it was so long since Asriel and Chara died. That's probably why.

All I'm saying here is, that since the other humans had the same powers as Frisk, there's a good chance that some of them were even STRONGER, more determined than Frisk, and yet, they've all failed. According to some lines, Frisk is very young (some stuff that seems to be supporting this is for example the line in Toriel's home: "look at these cool toys!" - if Chara said that, they've probably assumed that Frisk is very young), and so, the chance that they were the youngest, or at least one of the youngest, is pretty high. We simply cannot rely on the possibility that Frisk was the most determined one because they were the oldest human yet.

And so, we should rather be looking at the possibility that the reason they managed to utilize their own determination in such way was because of all the things that MADE them determined. Heck, they don't feel determined at all when they're about to face Asgore! Imagine how the other kids must have felt. With so little determination, it must be very hard to defy death, or even to reload and not get stuck in a jar, lol. Frisk had everyone's mental support. Plus the fact that Asriel simply WAS in a dire need of help does convince me that Frisk defied death not because they were special, but because they were encouraged, because everyone believed in them, as opposed to the other children, most likely. For what we know, the others had only one person ever wanting to support them, and that was Toriel. But they rejected her. Too bad for them then.

Err... I think that's everything I wanted to say there. Moving on!

"Your theory is basically "so uh yeah Frisk's soul trait isn't determination he just doesn't have one probably or maybe we never know I mean it's not like the one defining attribute of this character with very little personality hasn't been determination."" 

There is one more thing that could be interpreted as Frisk's trait, and that is the phrase "you continue to be yourself" - and all of its variations. But other than that, I don't understand what the heck is your problem. Can't you acknowledge that Frisk's trait is simply not known? Determination ties to all the humans, not just to Frisk. Plus, all of them had the same powers. It would be meaningless assigning Frisk the trait of determination. Just because you've got one thing confirmed to be mediating their journey (determination), doesn't mean it is also the one thing that we're missing elsewhere (their trait). It is thoughtless from anyone to be drawing such connection. I mean, heh, determination is never even labeled with the color red in the game! I highly suggest you go read this post:

http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/153875085963/the-red-soul

While it is a popular headcanon, many people are not agreeing with it. Logically, there's nothing "wrong" with it, so they must have a very good reason to be disagreeing with it.

I hate to admit this, but I'm slowly starting to think that the people, who despite all the evidence STILL believe that Frisk's trait is determination, are comparable to the people who believe the Earth is flat.