Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-31536324-20190306162903

"She was talking about fate in general. That entire spiel was about DT as a whole, not just one aspect of it. The strength to persist outside the human body and after death, the will to live, the resolve to change fate; all of these are a form of firmness of purpose"

theres no evidences that she was talking about fate in general, and she wasn't talking about dt as a whole considering that she firstly used specifically the "will to keep living"definition to describe it,meaning dt is something specific."

She outright list the two as separate things about DT. She specifically says that it's what allows human SOULS to persist and change fate; she is talking about DT as a whole in general. The two can be swapped and the point of the sentences wouldn't be changed at all. Her speil is essentially an inverse of the Waterfall Plaque; saying what DT does and then what it is, in contrast to the Plaque's exposition on what DT is and then what it does.

The fact that these two things are their own sentences alone spells out that they're separate things about DT. Having a form of and in a sentemce isn't the only way to convey that.

"And we can certainly say that the "resolve to change fate"pretty much match with the first definition describing dt as "the will to keep living"as "the will to keep living"is actually the resolve to change fate, to change death, to keep living despite our destiny."

No it isn't. This is literally just a cheap attempt to try and force teo things into being one thing. As I said, death is only a FATE/DESTINY if it's outright foretold what your end is going to be.

The hero will die in the heat of a hopeless battle.

You will die by a truck on August 15th at 7:45PM on a foggy rainy night.

The world will end at the turn of the year to 2012.

These are all examples of death being a predetermined fate, an event meant to be unavoidable and unstoppable, no matter the circumstance. The will to live cannot change this, it's simply wanting to live, what we do subconsciously every day.

The resolve to change fate is exactly that, the will to defy destiny, to change these things, prevent them, alter destiny to a new outcome.

"Also, in the game dt is always associated with the will to specifically change death, the will to keep living as Asgore telling Chara to hold on life(stay determined) or Flowey "As long as I was determined to live... " but never with changing fate in general"

Except for Flowey outright saying you could do X to change the ending and get a different one. As well as the Asriel fight post first REFUSE in general.

"And considering her entry :

"I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination.""

It doesnt seems to describe two different functions as there's no "and"between the two definitions but ".... "as if they were completing each other and not two different functions."

1: I refer you to my above spiel about this.

2: The mere fact that she's LISTING them shows that they are separate applications and functions of DT.

"And actually you misunderstood something :the ability to persist isn't a form of dt, its A RESULT of dt"I believe this is what give their souls the strength to persist after death"

I know.

And this is pretty clear that "the resolve to change fate "isn't "the firmess of purpose in general"as this is too specific as definition, that endorces the idea that dt has a different function in Undertale"

Except for the vey clear application of the real world definition via SPARING and the quote about making monsters not want to fight you (i.e lowering their Determination to do so).

I'm not saying DT is the firmness to do a specific action, like what you implied. I'm saying that it's the firmness behind thr action that drives it.

"But yeah, i agree that "the will to keep living"is a form of "firmess of purpose"BUT this substance she extracted from the souls is specifically the "the will to keep living", the resolve to live, not something more"

1: Both are a form of firmness of purpose. Just specific forms.

2: How does that make any sense? I'm confused here.

"Second: It's literally stated in the game that to spare a Monster you have to make them not want to fight you. In other words you have to lower their determination to fight."

"But the substance she called dt is SPECIFICALLY "the resolve to change fate", "the will to keep living"not the "determination to fight"

I refer you to above.

"And where is the proof for this statement?"

I don't know, maybe the fact that the soul is actually "the culmination of your being"?

Well, yeah, but how does it act as proof?

"How?

Well obviously because if "the resolve change fate"was something general and not related with the will to persist then it wouldn't allow them persist after death as humans can only persist after death if they wants to persist. And Flowey even confirms that only the "determination to live"can allow us to keep living"But as long as I was determined to live, i could come back"

Both are a part of DT, so they're related by nature, just not so intricately that one can't be without the other.

"First off, who has ever said the former at all in this thread?"

Person that person and the human ambassador (not sure for the latter)

"Second of all, WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE SITUATION IN THE GAME, whoever is the most determined- regardless of their trait at that time - is the one who gets the ability. The kids are heavily implied to have fallen one by one at different times, and since Humans have more DT than Monsters naturally, they would get the ability to SAVE. I'm talking specifically about the situation presented in the gane, nothing else."

But NOTHING implies that the save load ability is limited to the underground, so they must be the most determined beings in the world not just in the underground. That would be really weird if it was as it would foreshadows that the underground for some unknown reasons has it own rules that don't applies to the surface"

True.

"I'm not using personal ddfinitions, I'm wording them in a way for you to understand them. What you put is literally what I put. You've done nothing here but prove my point.'

So if Frisk is even showed to continue persevering despite difficulties that can rather mean they are perseverant. But no the firmess of purpose and perseverance complete each other, which could mean that the firmess of purpose is rather the characteric of perseverance souls as they are so determined to achieve their goal that they continue persevering despite difficulties"

Willingness to continue =/= Firmness of purpose.

I refer you to my two video game analogies.

Perseverance is getting to the end; learning as you play, getting a feel for the layout, enemies, tricks, and obstacles and adjusting accordingly.

Determination is beating the level; it doesn't matter how, you just HAVE to beat it.

"Excdpt no in is calling them, IT'S A MEMORY, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE POWER, FRISK DOES!"

"Asgore does when Frisk/Chara dies"

It's a memory! Chara explicity says that Frisk DT and SOUL are why they came back, and since SAVE goes to the LIVING being that falls into the Underground, Frisk is the one with the power itself. Chara COULD use it since they're attached to Frisk, and the ones getting the LV. But they only get power by Frisk getting EXP.

"For the last time: THE DT HE WAS INJECTED WITH IS HIS DT!"

Proofs??Also he literally showed that he had the psychological feeling of keep living due to his personal fear of death."

1: It's what brought him back to life for one.

2: He has no fear of death.

"And this is not because a monster is injected of dt that it can't has it own dt, same goes with Flowey."

Monsters have their own DT, Flowey doesn't, and needed to be injected with it in order to live; so that's all he has unless he absorbs another SOUL. That's it.

"Every single living being has this personal instinct of wanting to avoid death."

Exactly, and Flowey has it due to thr DT he was injected with, nothing more.

"Was this supposed to accomplish anything other than restating what we've ready been saying this entire thread?"

"Okay here briefly the proof The human ambassador used:

"So we need something that puts all of these things together."

Theres no evidences that Frisk need anything specific to put those traits together, rather it only seems like their trait is just a personality that includes the 6 traits, thus allowing them to use them to reach the red flag"

He meant as in what these six put together make.

"Bravery. Justice. Integrity. Kindness. Perseverance. Patience. Using these, you were able to win at "Ball Game."

They don't used any "firmess of purpose"to get the red flag but all the 6 traits, which means their "trait"(honestly it doesn't seem to have any specific trait, ) =all the six traits."

1: Playing a game to get the most elusive accomplishment =/= firmness of purpose. - MagomaevaAnima.

2: The second flag all but screams that resolution is how you got it, and here's the thought process for my point on this: "There's a red SOUL, my SOUL is read, the flags have shown all thr colors of the other SOULS except mine. There must be red flag, so I'll play until I get it."

"After all, during this ball game, each tactic to get a flag are associated with the soul trait symbolized by the flag you get. Example: ""Ball" is "Small." You waited, still, for this opportunity, ... then dethroned "Ball" with a sharp attack." This fits with the flag you get when you act like that:the flag that represent patience. So if Frisk's trait was the firmess of purpose, the flag would say "despite all difficulties, you never gave up your will to achieve your goal, this led you to your victory"or something like that."

What a coincidence, the second flag did just that.

But they used all the six traits to get the red flag, so the red flag is supposed to match with those tactics, so the mix of all traits,thats also implied with the fact that "ball game"is written in red during the ball game, implying Frisk's trait is the "ball game", so all traits"

The Ball Game is about achieving victory, getting the ball in the hole and the flags. Sounds like Determination to me.

"Are you talking about your arguments????" No, yours.

That's weird. I mean theres no strong evidences implying that Frisk's soul=dt and they are only filled with dt because of random, stupid things,I don't think they give them so much dt."

1: You are not Frisk, no one is Frisk, or even Chara for that matter.

2: The 'stupid things' are all either people striving toward a goal (mouse and the cheese) or something relating to your goal of going home (playing in the leaves or making snow constructs, a happy coincidence, an obstacle to overcome, or something that would remind you of home - however strange it might be). To Frisk they would make them more determined, because they serve as a push to pursue their goal in some form or fashion. Everyone gets empowered by different things, react differently to different things. Frisk just took these things as a reason to not stray from their goal.

3: Frisk and Chara have red SOULS, both are constantly and consistently associated with Determination, both are shown to never flinch or waver in achieving their goals. The other SOULS already have traits associated with them, and DT is the only canon candidate left that lines up with the flags, Frisk and Chara, and even the color of their SOULS.

I'm not kidding about that last one by the way, red really IS the color for Determination, look it up.