Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190403163405/@comment-32182236-20190417133456

New Home was actually the second stop, after the monster originally came in from Home in the Ruins.

The Ruins is where we begin. It's where the hole leads. That's the first place the monsters were at. Some monsters did stop in the respective towns before they got to new home, of course. The Snowdin Shopkeeper explains the origin of Snowdin, and then we have Part 4 of Monster History. (Part 2 and 3 are mysteriously missing. There must have been some historical events that happened between the banishment underground to the move to New Home, to put inside those missing parts.)

I’ve always wondered how the Spiders got split. And how did some of them get through Snowdin if the cold was lethal to insects? … or did they come in through the Ruins?

If they came in from the Ruins, they had to have gone through Snowdin. That doesn't avoid the problem, it creates the problem.

Asgore show’s there’s an opening at his castle in New Home that leads right outside. The Barrier would prevent anyone from walking out.. But not anyone from walking in?

Oh, so you meant to say that perhaps the spiders DIDN'T come from the Ruins? Yes, that makes sense-There are TWO ways to end up underground-Ending up at the Ruins, and ending up at New Home. (There's also a light in Waterfall, right at the Garbage Dump. Right where the golden flowers are. That might be a third entrance.) But there is communication among the spiders, because at the end of the Muffet fight, there's a telegram from the Ruins spiders. (Probably papers being pushed through the door.)

While only burrowing creatures and ghosts can freely travel to the Ruins under their own power, there’s no law that prevents Toriel from opening the door and letting others in.

And yet, she doesn't.

She does that for Sans and Papyrus after all.</span<

No, she doesn't. She doesn't even recognize the two until she hears their voice. Take another look at the cutscene that comes before Asriel's battle. She only knows of Sans as "the voice behind the door", and Papyrus as "the brother of the voice behind the door". Similarly, Sans only recognizes Toriel as "the voice behind the door".

And we know she opens the door occasionally because she let the other humans through, had Alphys upgrade her phone, and delivered all the Fallen Down Vegetoids to Alphys’ lab.

Alright, I can understand why you'd think that. I did deal with this argument in Chapter 6, but this is Chapter 5, so I hadn't presented it yet. (This is the argument you made in Chapter 6, after all).

The Vegetoids we see in New Home must live in New Home. And now that we know there are Vegetoids in New Home, then THOSE could have been the ones that are fallen down. No Ruins involvement required. There’s no reason Toriel wouldn’t open the door for others, too, if need be.

And Toriel is certainly still the Queen. She’s identified as that when she returns on the neutral endings to take the throne. She left Asgore, but there’s no indication she ever abdicated.

..After further analysis of said ending.. Sans did say that "the queen returned", and then added that she "is now ruling over the underground".

So Toriel did remain queen, but only as a formality. She didn't actually enforce her position as queen, and none of the monsters in the Ruins call her that. She's just Toriel, the guardian of the Ruins. But to everyone outside the Ruins, she's the queen.. Who left Asgore.

So No Mercy is a better term than Genocide. We don’t actually kill them all.

I would actually use that term, if it wasn't also used for a Neutral Route where you just don't spare anyone, but don't exhaust the kill count either.

You count adding up to 666 is interesting. No reason that wouldn’t work.

And eventually, we'll find out whether or not that count is actually accurate.. If it is, though, then that is VERY interesting.. Given Gaster's connection with that number.

…Alphys DOES know that Toriel exists. Toriel has opened the Ruins door before, and specifically visited Alphys both for her phone, and delivering the Fallen Vegetoids. Alphys even knows that Sans called Toriel to the Asgore showdown instead of Papyrus.

Here, have a video of the ENTIRE cutscene before Asriel's fight. You point me to where Alphys makes this indication. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48AqPEPBYc

Meanwhile, explain why Alphys seems to indicate that you are WRONG here:https://youtu.be/L48AqPEPBYc?t=191

Oh, and by the way, if you were planning on using this... https://youtu.be/L48AqPEPBYc?t=380

That doesn't count. Here, Alphys just knows Papyrus didn't call Toriel. Alphys knows that because Papyrus thought Toriel was a clone of Asgore, meaning he doesn't know Toriel at all! And knowing Papyrus didn't call her is not the same as knowing that Sans did.

It doesn’t make sense that Alphys wouldn’t know who Toriel is. I believe she and Papyrus are both playing dumb. They’re working together to test Frisk.

At this point, didn't they already pass? Sans gives you the key a little bit before then.

And your reasons to believe that Alphys wouldn't know Toriel? Because they've interacted with each other? That's something that I called into question by calling into question whether or not the Vegetoids really were from the Ruins.

The Waterfall Glyphs specifically state that, while difficult, in theory a SOUL *can* be removed from a living monster.

Yes.. But since that's implied, the writer likely didn't know HOW it could be removed. Just that it'd take a great amount of power.

Alphys injected monsters with Determination and waited for them to die.. But they never did.

Because by injecting them with Determination, she made the body persist as well as the SOUL.

Alphys never attempted to take the SOUL from a living monster… … like Gaster did.

Of course Alphys never tried this. But how does that point to Gaster doing it?

What's to say the Amalgamates don't still have SOULs to this day? Likely multiple, as they're multiple monsters. Remember, the difference between the fusions are that the bodies fused, while with Flowey X/Omega Flowey/Photoshop Flowey, (Flowey X is the file name, while Photoshop Flowey is the name in the credits), only the SOULs fused. The body still belonged only to Flowey. But with the six human SOULs there, they could break free of control with the help of Frisk.

Are you really sure that Mettaton only has 9 viewers? Or was that comedy?

Ferret, can you show me where you draw the line between comedy and real evidence? Because right now, you seem to be drawing one obviously comedic statement as comedy, and another obviously comedic statement as evidence as well. I say they're BOTH evidence.

I guess my statement from long ago DOES apply. You don't take things seriously enough. Those people who say you take things too seriously.. They're wrong! It's the opposite!

He made a media empire for himself, after all. Complete with a hotel. And a LOT of people called in at the end.

I only counted four callers. The first was Napstablook, and the other three, we don't know. Mettaton EX also had the most viewers, as Mettaton revealed just before he revealed the viewer call-in milestone had been reached.

Mettaton's fan club has, if we trust one of his fans by the ship puzzle, states that has fan club has two dozen.. no, maybe THREE dozen.. Not counting said fan themselves. So 25-37? That's still less than a tenth of all monsters.

So it's really not unusual to find someone who doesn't recognize Mettaton.

As you pointed out, there are about 666 monsters minimum down there. Probably more. And Mettaton is the premiere star in the Underground.

He's the premiere star in the Underground because he's the ONLY star in the Underground.

My point is that I think it’s impossible that neither Muffet nor any member of his numerous spiders would recognize Mettaton’s unchanging voice as the one who hired her.

I counted ONE spider. (Besides Muffet). Literally ONE. (It's the one that puts down the flower for Muffet after she dies)

But that does mean my count is wrong. After all, if you've been analyzing the game as much as (or MORE than) I have, you'd know that some spiders crawl and give you the Spider Donut. So there's.. At least 2.

Well, I guess I'm bumping up the count. It's 666 even without the Annoying Dog counting as a monster.

I admit that claiming Gaster hired Muffet is one of the weaker parts in my theories.

And since other parts relied on that part, they are also weak. It's as they say:A theory is only as strong as its weakest link.

But then again, when Mettaton claimed to have hired all the people who attacked Frisk, he might not have known about Muffet the Mercenary.

..Muffet owns the entire room separating the area of Hotland filled with elevators and puzzles, with MTT's special ballet performance.

This is a game mystery where knowing what each of the characters know, and how what they know influences their actions.

And in such a game, every detail matters. Including the fact that Mettaton doesn't have hundreds of followers.

Mettaton EX's ratings can't be viewers, because they can reach well over 10000, which is far more than the amount of monsters that would make sense. If that's how many monsters exist, 20 monsters wouldn't make it noticeably less crowded. (That's .2% of them in this case)

The Redacted Sprite could be a shapeshifted form of Gaster. We know for a fact that he does shapeshift, we see it happen when he gets surprised. His body is gluey, like an Amalgamate, and he seems to be a combination of two creatures.

...You made the claim that the Redacted sprite was the one who hired Muffet as if you already knew this BEFORE revealing that it was Gaster. How you present your theories and evidence can change how it gets perceived.

The sprite that watches Frisk take the apron in Hotland looks a bit like the Core Mercenaries.. But isn’t a perfect match.

So, you think THIS sprite is the one that hired Muffet? ...I do recall there being a hidden ghostly sprite in Hotland, but I don't seem to be able to find any sources.. Despite the fact that I remember there being some.. They gave it a name, even.. Does anyone here know who this Hotland, dark sprite is?

You’d think if it was a mercenary, it would attack. But instead, it’s just watching Frisk, clearly interested in him.. But refusing to attack him *personally*.

..If I just had proper context on this sprite, I'd be able to theorize on it.

Gaster never attacks Frisk directly. Either he’s cooking up some kind of plan.. Or he’s actually worried about how that fight might go. From experience, possibly.

Or he has nothing against Frisk? ..I'd say the former is more likely than the latter, considering who Gaster is.

Gaster’s Head in his follower’s hand can’t be a skeleton head, because it doesn’t look like a skeleton head, it looks like a fleshy talking human head.

..Why, because it's gray? The whole Follower is gray! ...Though I'd say we should find out whether or not skeletons use their heads to talk. I say they do.

Which is super creepy, because not only is the head saying these words, but it’s also Gaster’s head. Perhaps the Followers are part of him? Or he’s infected them with parts of himself?

And perhaps that's what the Follower meant in the first place.

The Elevator voice sounded very confident, like a mastermind. Yet Flowey was still surprised when all the other monsters showed up.

Do know that Gaster made a mistake in his plan as well. If he didn't mess up on his plan, he wouldn't have fallen at all. And Flowey was acting. Right after he said that, he then followed with his signature "You idiots". This was his plan the entire time, and now, he was going to turn into his true form. When Alphys asked how Papyrus knew to call everyone, he mentioned a talking flower.. Which got Alphys worried.. And right after that, Flowey showed up.

It hasn’t been a long time since Flowey and Frisk talked. Yet the Elevator voice says it’s been a long time.

Why do you insist on adding the words "since we've talked" to the Phone Call?

This voice belongs to someone other than Flowey. And if Flowey is using it, he’s either mimicing someone else (his personal knowledge wouldn’t change though) … or someone else is speaking THROUGH HIM.

The voice belongs to Hyperdeath Asriel. So he's mimicking.. himself.

I get a feeling of determined malice from the Elevator Voice. Which then uses the godlike power of Hyperdeath Asriel to make Frisk’s life a literal hell.

...Just because the True Lab was a horrifying experience? I'd say that whoever made the elevator fail was someone who wanted Frisk to discover the truth.

Something happened between them. And Gaster has a bone to pick with Frisk.

Really, all the evidence points to Flowey being the mastermind here. Who, at this point in time, is malicious.