Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180912210335

"No, because you gave an unequal example."

Yeah, what you can REALLY "prove" from that is that we have no free will.

"That doesn't mean it cannot work as a possible explanation. Once again, I have to repeat myself. Toby didn't think of all this, we expanded the rules he originally had in mind and made something greater. No doubt our theories are plausible. But are they realistic though, are they something that Toby had in mind? ... Why does it matter, nobody cares nowdays."

When discussing canon, we NEED to find the realistic answer. That's what canon IS-The real answer. Not a bunch of wrong ones.

"Toby made everything canon, yes. But he forgot to cement that using in-game evidence. What I mean specifically, is that he forgot to show, that the universe isn't a simulation. In fact, in many ways, it looks more like it is, rather than the opposite. If turns and buttons and whatnot are all real, then this is the more plausible explanation than some very weird and nonsensical "universe," simply because the idea of such a universe is more complicated than a simulation, and that is mainly because we know how such a simulation can perhaps work. But a universe which employs buttons and turns and menus and stats? First time I'm hearing about it."

Stats are actually one of the simplest parts of it. They're simply quantized amounts of your power. You've already made an explanation of HP, and I would consider magical attacks to be using a quantized form of magic-You can only deal whole numbers of damage, and use a whole number of "magical units", which we all know as ATK. DEF is the resistance, the strength of whatever protection the SOUL has, perhaps the strength of its magical matter?

"And to be honest, even if Toby Fox right now proclaimed that you're right, I'd still be reclusive. I'd need the concrete rules of physics for such a universe to start believing that such a thing is possible to begin with. I mean, magic is one thing, I have nothing against that. I don't think LOTR or Game of Thrones are simulated either. But at least everything else is realistic."

As I've said before, the best way to look at a FIGHT is an alteration to the natural overworld. When your SOUL (with your essence) gets separated from your body, you now control that, while a box is created to entrap the SOUL into this encounter. Some, but very few, monsters have the ability to manipulate said box. (But everyone can SEE the box)

Now, as a SOUL, you can't hold any weapons-You don't exactly have any hands, after all. But that doesn't stop you from having a magical remnant of that weapon-A way to indirectly use it anyway, with some magic. This method of using magic to trigger the weapon, is what we see as the FIGHT button-Placed in one of the four parts of the battlefield that's filled with magic (and can be used to access the other three areas, but only those.) Now, the monsters might try to get creative:What happens if I teleport the SOUL somewhere else? Luckily, a steady flow of magic is geared towards preventing monsters from doing just that.

The item button works similarly-A field of magic that links your SOUL with the magical properties of an item, drains the healing magic, and gives it directly to your SOUL, healing you, but making the item now useless, and thus unusable (its magic was already drained)

The ACT and MERCY buttons are more complex, but the basic principal is the same-They're ways to do things you normally couldn't as a mere SOUL.

Now, you only have enough SOUL power to do ONE of those actions at a time, before you must wait for the magic to restore itself. You only have a certain amount of SOUL power, after all. So, you'll have to wait, and choose carefully.

But, it's not just that simple. You see, once you've used up all of your magic making your move, no magic remains to keep up your layer of protection:Thus, the monster takes the opportunity to entrap you into the box-The FIFTH place filled with magic. But, it's even less than ACT and MERCY-All you can do is move across it, and ALMOST enough magic to teleport back. ..If there was only some more magic to absorb..

..Oh, there is! Monster attacks are made of magic.. If we could just absorb just a tiny little but of ambient magic, which had radiated out from the bullets.. We'd gather enough to make a teleport. So, how about we do that? *failed* ..Wait, what's going on? Why can't I do it? ...The monster isn't casting a spell on my SOUL, so.. What's interfering with my spell?

..It's the ambient magic coming from monster attacks. That's enough to interfere with what we had absorbed. Looks like we have to wait until the attack is OVER, first.

..Alright, there we go. Back with the buttons. So, now to think of my next move...

There we go! No causality breaks, just some magic effects! Causality is still here!!

"Common sense. On one end, you've got no HUD. You hate that."

Blame Sans.

"On the other, you have nothing but the HUD and the code. You also hate that, apparently."

Blame Flowey's last speech.

"In between, you have a cherrypicked mix of both, and you find it very tasty."

Oh, I just used a nice little razor, to separate the good from the bad.

"You find the creator's word more logical than logic itself, and yet here you stand, on a discussion forum."

No, my real reason for believing in the HUD is Sans abusing it. You're the one who got this meta conversation started, and so, since you decided brining Toby into this was a good idea, I decided to show you the Kickstarter post. If you stop trying to bring Toby into this, go back to looking for an in-game explanation, and don't ignore what Sans said like that, and start analyzing it as its own world, as it SHOULD be, THEN I'll stop the meta arguments. They're really just a counter to YOUR meta-arguments.

"Apparently, you wanna argue with logic, hence why you're here, and yet, you base everything on the assumption that logic isn't present in this game to begin with (let's call it that, I know you aren't really aware of this flaw of yours yet)."

Now that I've finally crafted a model of the battle system, maybe you'll be more willing to look into this?

">He said that the mechanics are canon to the world, not that literally everything (like the black and white world and invisible barriers that AREN'T the Barrier) on screen is canon.

That's cherrypicking."

No, it's you grabbing what's not there. He said what he said, don't add to it. He said:"Use the format of a video game to tell the story: traditional fourth-wall breaking tropes such as "SAVING," "EXP," and "LV" are an intergrated part of the game's world."

The FORMAT of a video game to tell the story, and fourth-wall breaking TROPES are used. Now, when's the last time you've seen characters lose their color in a battle screen? Is that even a trope? Invisible walls are more common, but is that a trope? Based on the examples Toby gave, he seems to be dealing with traditional game mechanics. Besides, as I said before, if that looks like a stretch, take into account that if the invisible walls WERE canon, Gaster would have taken advantage of it. He didn't, therefore, they're not canon. By combining what Toby said with actual logic in the game's universe, we reach a conclusion, and can figure out just what he meant when he said that. Whenever he could be saying different things, depending on how you interpret it, look at the game itself. It should clarify a few things for you. :3

"What exactly makes you think that? Give me your exact thought process."

...Here, I have nothing to add to your statement. But, I'll say that the latter part of the intro has been proven to also be Chara's memories. As for the former? I actually have no idea, but the information contained within it is supported later on in Waterfall, minus the part about the battle being long, but that wasn't contradicted, either.

"Neither of you have disproved anything, you used dumb wordplay to give it to me."

How did I give it to YOU? And it's not my fault that you don't interpret English properly.

"Also, earlier, I showed a correlation between DT and soul power."

Yeah, that humans have more DT than monsters, and humans have more SOUL power than monsters. That is horrendously weak, and correlation does not imply causation. There is a ratio of SOUL power, nearly all the monsters being equal to one human in power, but this adds nothing to our correlation if we aren't similarly given such a ratio in terms of DT.

"Too bad that's what we do most of the time. And Toby never says anything. Pretty lame from you to say that."

He doesn't have to use his Twitter or any social media to say it-He can just put it in the game, and that's fine too. In fact, that's BETTER.

"Well then, you must be a genius, because I just can't see what you find so logical about the HUD being compatible with the overworld."

Hopefully I can give you an answer, now that I've thought of it for all this time. (it's above here)

"Why are you still seeking confirmation, when the evidence is the same?"

Look, I have a Gaster plot-hole, and there is no evidence that this is particularly canon. The razor here would cut it off, because it wasn't mentioned or used by the NPCs, nor by the enemy monsters, nor Chara, nor Flowey.

"I am generalizing here and forming a theory. If you want the confirmed truth and nothing but that, immediately stop thinking that red souls are DT, that Flowey is Asriel, that we know anything more about Gaster besides that he was the previous royal scientist and is now missing, because all of these are unconfirmed theories."

Flowey said it himself, and transforms into Asriel. And take a look at the Genocide Speech. That IS confirmed. By the way, we do know two more things about Gaster, he created the CORE, and was a genius. It's anything beyond that which is mere speculation. As for red being DT? That's what all of this is for!

"Toby hasn't answered any of these directly, not even that Flowey is Asriel. Not even once. But we figured it out thanks to the hints he planted into the game, and much, much more."

So how about we use those hints from the game, instead of trying to make up stuff?

"And now that we've got hints for something new once again, you are refusing. Based on what exactly are you making the decision to not accept the theory in this case?"

Oh, please, Alphys gave hints for my case. And under the razor that your yourself had mentioned using, that information placed later in the game trump what came before, Alphys wins, because the True Lab is way past Waterfall. (And as I showed, Waterfall doesn't directly say anything regarding this anyway)

"Well then, you will have to refresh my memory. I must have stashed it away along with the rest of your bs."

It's probably the same flaw we're talking about right now-With Flowey and Asriel.

"Oh, is that what you think I'm claiming? Well then, that changes everything. No, I don't think he has just ONE soul. That's simply how I referred to his newfound abilities. By "composite soul", I rather meant a composite powersource, made out of many individual souls. This is what in turn partially messed up the SLR ability, kicking the R out under standard conditions, and requiring the previous host's soul to be destroyed first.

I have conjectured all of this solely by observing the game."

And by leaving out what parts appear to not make any sense.

"Those rules were established with a soulless Flowey in the equation. Now that Flowey has many souls, everything becomes questionable. Clearly, he can save and reload, but he hasn't demonstrated whether he can reset. And as Asriel, he said he can't, at least not right away. So what if?"

RESET is simply the same as loading a blank SAVE, though. That's literally all a RESET is. "LOADing" the point in time where you first gained the ability.

"That's your hypothesis, not a confirmed fact. And if we tweak the other assumptions, we find that this hypothesis stands on "incorrect" assumptions."

Could you demonstrate?

"Once again, what made you think that this is the case? You certainly have no proof for it, so the best you can is find supportive evidence."

Make that the second time you've made an ironic statement. Because I have the exact same thing to say about your "proof" that DT is SOUL power, and your "evidence" is a lot weaker than mine.

"And I found quite the contrary, to which you used semantics to argue against, which means you can no longer find any logical arguments to disprove me."

No, it means I know what they mean, and adhere to strictly what it is they say, rather than trying to pile on assumptions, like ASSUMING that "its power" (CLEARLY referring to the strength of the SOUL, based on the plaque it came before) suddenly means "Aha! It MUST be talking about this specific thing called SOUL power!"

"By Occam's razor, I am proclaiming that my theory is simpler, because it unifies DT and soul power into one (by which I mean, it causes no logistical errors), and is therefore more favorable towards anything, except maybe for the creator, who still used two different terms for this power, so once again, the "correctness" is debatable."

Add in the composite SOUL rule though, and it becomes more complex. When judging a rule's simplicity, you have to also take into account all the extra rules that must arise to make the rule actually work.

"But still, what exactly is our goal here, to find what Toby had in mind, or to use logic to figure out the rules of the UT world?"

They SHOULD be one and the same. But, fundamentally, it's the latter.

"Well, yeah. Me thinks monsters have a "standard value" when it comes to their DT. Most of the time, that's what their soul power would amount to. And only very few can fluctuate enough to create a significant deviation from this standard. Humans on the other hand don't NEED to fluctuate, so they can be measured more reliably."

Undyne demonstrates exactly what it is that causes these fluctuations.

"Funny, how the 6 traits are just words. They don't actually give you anything physically, only mentally."

They do determine your natural SOUL color, and thus, your natural SOUL mode.

"And even then, they aren't all that special. The only noteworthy thing about them is that they're all positive, and that sometimes, their meanings may overlap."

You can be fulfilling more than one at the same time, yes.

"Not a very scientifically accurate system, is it? So how can we be possibly claiming that these 6 can cover all possible aspects of a human personality, when we have no evidence for it?"

They don't. What they do cover is how well you are at solving problems, using the six main attributes to help you out. Bravery, patience, "kindness" (technically passion/care), "Justice" (technically order, but an ordered moral system is what we call justice), persevearance, and integrity (using your own style-Possibly creativity?)

Remember, every single flag mentioned that you did a certain thing to achieve a victory, to overcome an obstacle, which is the ball game itself.

"But I'm side tracking. That was just a piece of luck. If you'd rather believe that humans are simply that dull, then there comes Glitchtale, where this concept is explored rather extensively. The traits are pivotal there."

Didn't they simply determine what kind of magic you were attuned with? (In Glitchtale canon, that is)

"Sure, I agree with that. What's the catch again?"

...You know, I'm not sure in this case. I don't even know if there is one. At least under your take on it never fluctuating EVER (You're talking about the rule of how even if it was allowed on the surface, meaning multiple RSH, only one could have it at a time, right?)

"That evidence can be explained differently. No need to indroduce new concepts into the play, when an explanation already exists."

But that's exactly what the composite SOUL theory is-A new concept.

"No one ever said anything about there being a limit. I just like to say that they failed because of Asgore. Since the game already proves that they had those abilities. Or if it takes your fancy, you can say that Gaster managed to do something to them before they could reset and stripped them of their power. Now that would be an interesting concept in the game, an area which you can evade from easily, but if you don't, you will lose your abilities, as the game will autosave your progress non-stop during that time, rendering it uncheatable."

I totally agree with your last sentence. It IS an interesting concept.

As for what came before? ...For this Gaster theory to work, we must assume that Gaster fell AFTER all six humans before Frisk had already done their thing, because his fall is the only way to explain why he didn't do it to Frisk. ..Now we should start searching for problems with Gaster's fall being placed after the final human's death. If there are any, that is.

"Frustration is also important. Haha, crazy thought, Asgore teaching Sans how to become an unbeatable piece of shit. Neat head canon even."

Oh please, we beat Sans. Just use the same strategy on Asgore. (You still fail to explain why Asgore would choose to dodge when it's clear he wants to lose.)

"Physically? No. That stays put. The tricky part is utilizing it however. I have long speculated that the essence is the bridge between the physical and magical within a human body. So maybe, it all comes down to your ability to feed your essence the DT, which depends on how much mentally determined you are to do so."

Why doesn't the essence just keep the DT after it has already been fed?

"Then you must admit that your rule of "being able to hurt monsters solely through the HUD" is nonsense."

Take a look at my explanation. Also, if the world is also one giant entity, and Chara attacked that...

What did they attack according to your theory?

"They are plainly stated, meaning that if not contested, they are an automatic truth. Else Toby wouldn't put it there. And Alphys doesn't know everything. She may be referring to soul power and DT in different contexts, but that's not a confirmation. You cannot possibly count this as a proof."

Then neither can you call a mention of power of the strength of the SOUL as a proof, when there is no use of the term "SOUL power" at all, and it CLEARLY just means the power of DT!

"So now you're claiming that while all souls have DT, only red souls have even more DT, because that balance of traits counts as some sort of a secondary DT pool. Bravo, way to make your theory even more convoluted."

I'll simplify it a little:We already know that all humans have some of each of the six traits. So, could it be that this first set of DT is really just that? If that's the case, there's really only one pool of DT. And I've already explained my take on what makes a red SOUL-A dominance in red. (Though if you wanted to get closer to Malice's take, you could say once this base DT reaches a certain threshold. To further simplify things, we can say that threshold is the same as the minimum DT required to S/L/R.)

"Oh, she did now?"

..Maybe not that last part.

"As a human living in the Underground, monsters may attack you."

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6gS2LPXdIc5MDVxY2RHMWZiQ2M/view

"Lol, what makes you so damn sure a separation isn't possible?"

Not sure about Malice, but my case is that a RESET is literally just loading a second point in time that never changes.

"Also, the reason we could reset during Asriel's battle is because he didn't save. When we try to quit the game during Omega Flowey's battle, we fail, because he overwrote our save file, and he also personally comments on this."

He commented that we can't go back to our SAVE. So, there's two possibilities here:

A-If we try to LOAD, we DO LOAD-But we LOAD his save file, because ours doesn't exist.

B-If we try to LOAD, we somehow can't access our file.

A seems reasonable, but Flowey gives us back our SAVE after the battle, which means it must have still existed somewhere, eliminating that option. B's therefore the only explanation. By the way, the Flowey's World SAVE is what we LOAD the first time around, but once his battle starts, we can't even LOAD that file for some reason. Why can't we?

"So as OF, he was not only able to take our reset power away, but also KNEW about it.

But suddenly, as Asriel, he neither does it, nor appears to be aware of it (as in, if you do it, he doesn't comment on it the next time you see him). Explain this. He had even more power than OF, yet, he got some sort of an amnesia all of sudden."

That's for YOU to explain. That's a problem with YOUR theory. My theory simply says he can't do I, because we overtook his DT via a DT flux. Simple as that.

"Honestly, I see no other logical explanation other than this being a plot hole. It's just so obvious."

It's a hole in your theory. My theory fixes that supposed hole. So, that's one count of a hole in your theory. So unless you find a hole like that in my theory, it's clear that your theory's wrong. (And if you DO, that almost certainly just means BOTH of our theories are wrong. That is, if it's a real hole.) "So, let's just say you cannot leave that battle, as was intended."

Nope. Nope. I'd understand this leap of logic if you could leave Flowey's battle, but you can't. So, everything below here in this ENTIRE section is invalid.

"Now, if you wish to factor in the fact that we could load by quitting, we must make that a thing. We must make "leaving the game" canon. Which also means we must give Asriel the said amnesia."

Technically, quitting's the only way to LOAD besides dying. And such a LOAD doesn't count towards the death counter, which means that Frisk didn't canonically kill themselves every time you LOAD a file. They used a different method of doing it. And whatever that method is, is what happens when you "LOAD by quitting." "Leaving the game" isn't canon, what is canon is that LOAD. By the way, what amnesia are you talking about?

"They've got way more DT than necessary, are used as a metric, and all instances of a fluctuation have an alternative and equally valid explanatation that doesn't involve it."

I wouldn't say equally valid.

"It wasn't."

Yeah, even I have to agree that there's no contradiction here. Allow me to explain this more. Let's say that the cutoff to melting is 10% of your average human DT, and your typical monster is a mere 1%. You could say there's a massive boost, and yet be nowhere near the level of a human. The real problem doesn't come into effect until you find ways of causing a significant portion of the monster population to experience a change in DT. Which IS possible, given their lack of hope after what happened to Chara, and all of their hearts beating as one in the Undying fight.

"Yeah. Good thing that's not the case and I actually have evidence."

By choosing a particular interpretation of the plaques, and using a terribly weak correlation.

"Except read everything I have said on this topic so far, you ignoramus."

You do the same with me and Malice.

"Proven... yeah, that's one hell of a twisted way of putting it. You just ingored them, that's all."

No, I analyzed the plaques, word for word, and showed how there is no actual reference to SOUL power at all here, just a vague "Its power", which is almost certainly talking about the plaque before it.

"Plus, there's the aforementioned correlation between DT and soul power, which is how this theory was formed in the first place."

Yeah, the horrendously weak one.

"It's not said that red is DT, but rather the sum of all the other traits, as well as "being yourself". All the other kids could save and load, so we aren't special in this regard."

I cite Asgore, and I ask you for another trait that is also the sum of all the other traits, which would also fit both Frisk and Chara.

"And neither did our superior DT allow us to refuse, since all humans have more or less the same amount of DT in them, since they're being used as a metric, meaning we aren't special in this regard either."

Not proven.

"Since Chara has no DT on their own, whatever they did at the end of the genocide route came from us, meaning every human is capable of doing that, meaning the entire world should have burned already, meaning nor humans, nor us or Chara are actually capable of doing that and Chara simply locked us out of the world."

Technically, they're not even a human anymore. If they were, they wouldn't be able to take our SOUL. Also, we're probably the first human to ever reach LV20.