Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180707211010

..Chakras isn't a good indication of what we're discussing. We're mainly talking about how the traits and determination operate, to see whether or not determination is a trait (specifically, the red one) and Tsskyx connected the traits to chakras.

Now, to the actual discussion.

"I don't think they can appear as a substance at all. As I said, they are the flavor of a soul, they don't come in a physical form, they are a reflection of the structure of the soul itself. Kinda like the deep water being blue, due to it absorbing longer wavelengths of light and scattering the shorter ones."

That's a good possibility as well.

"I mean, the root does deal with the concept of survival, but also, mainly, stability. In order to develop anything internal at all, you must first take care of the absolute basics. And the way I've merged it with the "being yourself" definition is, that perseverance, the end of the cycle, is telling you precisely what you have to do."

...Just before you start again! So in the later cycles, we have a match.

"It contains the knowledge of the 6 previous chakras after all. On the other hand, red has an infinite amount of possibilites, hence its ambiguousness. That's the point here. Perseverance could also be taken as a variation on determination, but it isn't. Same for red. Any similarities are only circumstantial. DT is a physical "boosting" substance, totally removed from the psychological feeling of survival and perseverance."

"The WILL to live" is most definitely psychological.

"Not really. Chakras are purely psychological. The first tier of the pyramid is about satisfying your biological needs. Those important for survival. The second level however is security, and deals with fear. The thing that the root chakra is all about."

That is a better fit.

"Which is also why the last level is about spirituality. It is the most removed one."

Indeed.

"By being born? ¯\_(°_o)_/¯"

Now that I know of red being survival, yes, I suppose just living could fulfill it on the first cycle.

"But also, remember, patience is a sign of wisdom, or at least, a certain degree of intelligence."

...Where does the cyan flag say this? It just said you waited still, then dethroned Ball with a sharp attack.

"But yes, due to how the cycle is structured, purple IS above cyan, so that makes it even more focused on learning. Although, learning of a different kind. Not raw information, but putting it all to use, as well as seeking new horizons, which is a process that technically already began on the 6th degree, blue."

Seeking new horizons? ...Okay then.

"In any case, cyan cannot be just about patience, just like yellow cannot be just about karma and dexterity. I'd say, there is cyan in purple, hence why purple is still focused on learning."

Wait, so you DON'T believe the six traits are all separate? (Excluding the elusive red one) ...Okay, I'll have to rethink this quite a bit, to try and understand your theory..

"Rule number 1, don't assume a conspiracy. Just, don't."

You just did, though. With no grounding for it. Conspiracy theories should be critiqued the same way any other theory should be. And considering how most of them just use a bunch of vague connections, and no real evidence, or reason to be suspicious, the ruling will rarely be in their favor. For example.. It's clear the US had the technology to go to the moon. It'd be easier to just go there than to fake it. Not only that, but there was no real reason to believe that it was faked in the first place-All the "oddities" are actually what would be expected to happen, if one just looks at the science. So.. busted. The illuminati? ...Just no. All we have are coincidences, and spread out over a large area, in a large amount of time, making them likely to happen somewhere anyway. The Manhatten Project, an actual conspiracy? There was a sudden, significant drop in the physicists publishing articles-Because they were reassigned to Manhatten. Of course, that wasn't the only evidence for its existence-It COULD be pieced together. In fact, the Soviets probably figured it out themselves. Watergate? The electoral votes, 520-17 was grounds for suspicion, but they investigated further, and found the tapes, and only THEN did we have a conspiracy.

So, Rule 1-Don't assume a conspiracy based solely off circumstantial evidence. Actually try to see if there's a more reasonable explanation.

Now, if we have a contradiction, like I had pointed out about the plaques, then a conspiracy is the only possibility. Not just a "hole" in the fabric of Undertale's world that we need to accept. It if wasn't for the contradictions, there would really be no need to assume a conspiracy! So, is the evidence similar to that used in illuminati theories, or is it closer to what could be used to prove the Manhatten Project was a thing?

"Because it makes no sense? Toby wanted to impress us. To make all the usual gaming tropes canon. But the more you think about it, the less sense it makes. We are exploring this game for its story, isn't that right? And Undertale works best as a game, due to the player decisions being canon."

Yes, Undertale works best as a game. No other media could capture the idea of you having a CHOICE, where your choiches matter. It's a unique method of storytelling.

"It is also self-enclosed for the same reason."

When it comes to Frisk.

"And yet, we CHOSE to go out of its bounds, to expand upon the story. But when you expand upon the story, nevermind it being a literature, comic, or an animation, you are already breaking the established rules."

How? If we don't contradict what has been established so far, we break nothing.

"But what's worst of all, the game itself endorses this at times, by purposedly hinting at certain things that would lie out of its own scope."

It does this because there IS a hidden story!

"For example, Frisk's backstory. They are not just a manifestation of the player. They actually are their own person."

Why Frisk fell IS a reflection of us. Only we know. We're meant to roleplay Frisk.

"And so, you have two options here. Leave it be, or expand. But keep in mind, the moment you expand, you are already breaking the rules."

In this specific case, we leave it be-This is a case where we are meant to roleplay it out, as Frisk is a reflection of the player. You know, just like we do the whole rest of the game?

"Yes, technically, everything we see on the screen is canon. Every single thing. Because the game has no exceptions. There is no difference between the lore and the gameplay. It's all combined into one content soup."

Exactly. Hence why I keep this in my theories.

"Nothing has to make sense, because the game is making up its own rules."

Correction:Things don't have to work like our world-We are meant to use the game's rules, not our own.

"And we are not supposed to analyze them logically, we are supposed to take them at heart."

We have to do both. Ever heard of the literary form of the Anthropic Principle? That we are to accept by faith that what the story says happen DID in fact happen in that universe? The game's additional rules, we have to accept on faith. Then, we analyze those rules, and take them to our logical conclusion. It's based off the real principal-Why do we exist in a universe that is just right for us, at just the right spot? Simple, if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't exist at all.

"But by doing that, he also unknowingly created an immense potential for a vast and extensive new universe, which is what everyone latched onto right away. Sometimes I feel like all those theories about Chara being good at heart exist solely so that fanfictions that depict them as such would make sense to begin with."

I believe there were two reasons for this. The first is exactly what you said. The second is to put responsibility on the Genocide Route back on the player, as a response to another group, which says Chara is flat-out evil, just to put the blame off of themselves. I, of course, am in a third group, saying BOTH are responsible for the route.We pressed FIGHT, we all know that, but it's not like Chara did anything to stopus-In fact, they seem to cheer us on, helping us, and call us a failure if you don't kill Snowdrake.

"That's Undertale according to Toby Fox. An emotional/psychological experience. Plus a lot of puns."

We really don't know that. It as about as much evidence as the Illuminati theories. But WAY more plausible.

"And what's Undertale according to the fans? Take a look around. People who fully acknowledge the existence of HUD are scarce and nearly unknown."

Indeed, they wish to portray it as your typical fantasy world.

"Those that do partially fill the other part with their own headcanons and proudly declare such series as "obeying the canon rules" coughlitch coughtale cough excuseme."

Glitchtale does worse than that. It flat-out says the world is a game.. And then gives the "game" the ability to spawn a new character because Frisk messed it up? Come on. That would imply that it's sentient. And a game can't be sentient. If we want to go to the point where the code itself is a thing, why not just have Frisk get stopped by that big ol' "The End" screen when they reach the Surface? Oh wait, it was hard mode. Then let Tobydog end it off.

"And then there are people who say, "away with the absurd meta rules, everything meta has a full, self-enclosed in-game explanation." I'm one of those people. Undertale according to Toby Fox is dead."

Yeah, all the evidence was already laid out. We just need to find them. The story is already finished-We just didn't discover it. Also, since it's already true that whatever happens in the game's story is canon, that includes the HUD. But I do believe the existence of the HUD, as with everything else "meta", has an explanation in the game's world.

"Undertale according to the fans is still being developed. But development is forbidden, for the game is self-enclosed."

Hence why now, I'm using evidence from the game itself, to see how it would all fit together. Why I take Alphys' separation of DT and SOUL power for granted. Why I take the INTRO for granted. The entire story can be deduced from the GAME. (At least the questions the game explicitly brings up-I don't think we can find out the order of the humans falling.)

"What we are doing here is forbidden. We already broke the canon rules, by trying to come up with information that exists outside the scope of the game."

Red being determination is the most logical choice if we say that the game is self-enclosed. If it's self-enclosed, the red trait MUST be shown somewhere within the game. And we have a prime candidate. (Determination) I don't know where we started breaking these rules, but perhaps we can fix them.

"So, if we want to do this properly, we must not let the canon rules restrict us. The only thing we must obey is logic, and abolish the idea of the game being even slightly meta at any point in its story. If we want to obey the canon rules, that's fine, but there will be nothing left for us in there."

There ARE things left, but we have to combine pieces of evidence to do this. For example, the game never really goes out and says Chara is the narrator. That's why not everyone believes it. But look at the evidence, and you will see that ONLY Chara can be the narrator-Make anyone else the narrator, and you'll start seeing contradictions down the line.

"Wanna see a fine canon theorizing work? Saveloadreset.tumblr.com is your person."

So it IS possible to theorize based solely on canon!

"So, I am asking you here, do you want to discuss this game with the meta included, or excluded? Mind the latter is much more fun, and the former has already been milked to death and I have no interest in it either."

I've settled on a middle ground-If the meta aspects are not brought up in the story by a character, if they are not a plot point, they are to be excluded. This includes Mettaton changing the name of the game, for example. But, if the meta aspect actually plays a role in the story, excluding it will ruin the canon. That is why I call the HUD canon, yet not the fact that the game is, well, a game. The former is actually utilized in the story, while the latter.. Is never really brought up. Closest you get is Asriel telling you it is LIKE a game in his boss fight-And in that case, it's simple-If we can SAVE and LOAD at will, of COURSE we might eventually treat the world as if it was a mere game.

"Also, a special category are people who think that the game corrupting or crashing also has an in-game explanation (e.g. a character doing that on purpose so that you wouldn't be able to do whatever bad thing you just wanted to do) and the use that to declare that their alternative timelines are T E C H N I C A L L Y canon. Camila Cuevas is surprisingly one of those people."

Yeah.. I'm not one of those. That is purely coding, and nothing more. Unless the crash was deliberate, which only happens ONCE. (Just before Omega Flowey). That's even worse than calling the glitch in the first version of the game where Papyrus was visible on-screen after his death in the Undyne cutscene canon, because the latter is something that happened naturally, and the former.. Isn't in the game naturally-It comes from outside sources. (It's a glitch though, as the patch fixed it. And if you REALLY want to go hyper-meta here, you can say it was retconned.)

"There is no such thing waiting for you anywhere. Besides, the things you may think of as constants may be variables to other theorists. We will never find a common ground this way."

Not unless we can all come up with rules on what is and isn't constant. My take is that if it happens in the game, that's constant, but interpretations of events are all variables. What we see in the game is our only true evidence that we can take as an absolute fact.

"Yes. However, peeking into the code and asking ourselves, "why did Toby leave this here," perhaps "why in this order?" are also helpful questions. They may reveal HIS idea of the game's story to us, and that's better than any unconfirmed theory."

We'll never get concrete answers on the matter. We don't have the Mind Stone.

"It is implied the barrier is stationary, hence the plot hole."

Yes, the Barrier is stationary. It was ALWAYS past the door. Anything can enter through the Barrier. If that wall was the Barrier, we should be able to cross through it back underground. We can't. And since that wall was never brought up in the story, and really has no reason to exist, we might as well call it a game mechanic. Like Mettaton changing the name of the game.

If you meant how we can see the Barrier from Asgore's room, remember-Light can travel through doorways. We're never given any real sense of scale on how far the Barrier is. The white emanating light hits the floor, and that can't be a part of the Barrier, so we can't use the fact that it hits the whole room rather than just one streak line as evidence that the Barrier can't be on the other side of the doorway. The Barrier is, and always was, PAST the purple door.

"It can mean both. But knowing Toby Fox, I'd say it rather doesn't exist. It's not hidden, it was never constructed. The constants are scattered around randomly, and even if you do find a nice curve that connects them smoothly, someone else will find it ugly, because a nice universal one that would satisfy everyone simply doesn't exist, because as I said, the distribution of the constant points is pretty much nonsensical at times."

It's likely because some will argue that some of these points don't exist at all, because "they're too meta", and others will add in stuff like Mettaton changing the name of the game, which really IS too meta, and isn't established!

"And that's another thing. There may not be any fitting curve at all. You may need to change your perspective, perhaps turn one of those constants into variables, that is, accept a different idea, and try again."

Indeed, and, I have done this. Remember the old days when I thought red WASN'T a combination of all six traits? That you DON'T need the other six for it? I'll likely have to do it more, though. Just because nobody has spotted holes in my theories doesn't mean they don't exist.

"Although I'm pretty sure by doing this you will eventually find an answer, the chance it will also align with the original game in every single aspect the way Toby imagined it is slim. Actually, it is impossible, since the game has its own absurd rules, full of conditional if else statements (flags), that may be incredibly difficult to turn into actual universal rules."

Like what, the Genocide Route being aborted, and Chara seeming to "turn back to normal" after you let ONE monster get away, when a higher LOVE should just make them more corrupted? That's why I've adopted the partnership theory.

"Then, the univeral rules will start contradicting each other and you will have to make them even more complicated by adding in new conditions and in the end, we will end up with a system that's partially based on the meta aspect of the game, and partially on real-world rules."

Yes, just like the game itself-You yourself said the lore and the meta aspects make one big soup. I plan on keeping it that way. By the way, the only real-world rules I've really kept on using as evidence at this point is logic itself. I take Undertale's rules, and make them into its world's rules. I've ditched many, MANY of my attempts on trying to add real science into this. (Like what makes the SOULs glow, for example.)

"Seriously, WHAT will this give you? Satisfaction? That, I cannot understand. I cannot understand someone going through all this mess, just to be ridiculed by everyone later on. Everyone likes to believe in a different set of constants, and convincing people to change their constants just because it works in your system will be difficult. They will also be trying to find their own curve, without needing to modify their constants. Because their constants would be closer to the canon."

If they succeed on making their own curve without contradicting evidence within the game, that's good.

"By which I mean, they would be simpler, with less assumptions, or perhaps, that they collectively would amass to only a very small amount of meta points (or a very large, depending on what they like to believe in). That's another thing. Meta, versus in-canon. This is purely subjective, and people WON'T change their stances on this, no matter how good your theories may be. You may change their mind about the lore, but not about what is meta and what isn't. The only thing that would change their mind is a really good rational explanation, however, there are none left. We've already probed this game from all angles, remember?"

Perhaps this is the case.. Though my rational rule for what is just meta and what is actually canon is rather simple-What is and isn't addressed directly by the game? Did anyone comment on how Mettaton changed the name? (That includes Mettaton himself.) Nope. Does anyone say they're in a game, a simulation, or anything of the like? Nope. Do they mention turns? Yes, they do. (Sans)

"Why would I want to fix the curve of a theory, whose constants I don't like? YOU change your constants."

I said fix the holes in YOUR theory. Of course fixing the holes in MY theory is MY responsibility, as soon as they are found!

"There can be multiple "real stories", depending on your choice of constants."

True. That's why I both said "if it's the only one standing without any holes" and "probably".

"What will we default to then? Occam's razor? I'd like to see that. "Hey, which one of these numbers is bigger? 3i+5, or 5i+3?" ... yeah."

Yes, Occam's Razor works. And my lens is simply-If the game addresses it, it's canon, otherwise, it's not. How simple is that?

"Or it may have a transferred meaning. We are shielding our own soul, we are being kind to it. No other mode gives it a shield."

Well, you do have a link there. Here's where I got mine: Ball, when said by the results, is either the ball, which you must get in the hole, or the game itself, the challenge. Transposed onto Undyne's battle, the Ball would either be Undyne, whom you must defeat, or the battle itself. I went with it being the battle itself, since as we've learned from looking at the other traits, the traits don't necessarily follow their literal names-Take a look at the LITERAL meaning of patience, and see what that has to do with learning. But, as we've learned, cyan WOULD involve observation, and subsequently, learning. Green only says care and concern. It need not be the compassionate kind-It can mean passion. It solves the problem that I myself pointed out. From that, there is now no longer a reason to say the modes can't represent the traits. And, by Occam's Razor.. We unite them once again.

"Are you SURE it was THAT specific? The opposite of chaos?"

It need not be the opposite of chaos-Merely something that puts an end to it, through accuracy. If you can come up with something else that fits in with that, then I'll accept that there is another possibility.

"For what we know, "mayhem" could have been the game in general, which we understand to be the goal."

Mayhem is either violent destruction or chaos. Why would the game in general be considered as mayhem here, if it not be a part of the reflection of the trait?

"Ergo, yellow is to strike the goal with a precise accuracy."

Accuracy's a skill, though, not a trait.

"Sure, justice fits the opposite of chaos, so it works like that too. But as I said, truth is another thing that ties to justice, besides order. So if yellow is connected to order according to you, it is connected to "proactive truth seeking" as well."

It's order because it "puts an end to the mayhem". If you can show how truth does just that, then you'll have proven that truth fits in as well. (It doesn't fit in with any other trait so far, except MAYBE perservearance, so it IS quite likely. Mainly as a connection to order-For lies beget discord, which leads to chaos.)

"Again, are you SURE it was THAT specific?"

"but someone who sincerely likes bad jokes... has the kind of integrity you can't say "no" to."-Sans

Why don't you let the evidence answer that one for you? (Yes, it was.)

"Toriel has a strong sense of morality. No matter what anyone tells her, she will stand her own. That's what we understand intergrity to be."

Yes, that's it. The game even reinforces this definition-Your original style pulled you through.

"So even if Sans did define this based on a joke (which would be very unlike him, to ABSOLUTELY trust a complete strange just because they like his jokes - I mean, we did too?), I am technically not wrong. Integrity IS morality. (Not justice though, mind you.)"

No, it is, as you just said, standing your own no matter what anyone says. Kindness (in the literal sense) is not the same. And, if we interpret it as passion, there is no connection at all.

"I meant the positive inverse. So, the opposite of attacking right away."

Not attacking.. at all?

"If patience is not about learning, then it is the direct positive inverse of bravery - to attack later, rather than now."

There is timing to it. That kind of inverse would be attacking the latest you possibly could. The FIRST time their guard is down is when you attack. You don't just wait until the second.

"Yes, with yellow. Which would be akin to cutting the branch you're sitting on. Not much of an argument here, really."

I meant NATURALLY.

"No, you're not getting it. Where is the one place you cannot extract an undisturbed piece of evidence by force from? The mind. You have to convince the person to give it to you. You can't just cut their skull open and take a look. That's the problem that yellow solves. Of course it can't reconstruct the memories if they're missing."

Exactly, it can't. So to use it as a fool-proof, win-all solution to the problem won't work.

"If you want the truth that no longer exists, use the time travelling abilities of the green power to take a look."

Hence why I would consider the time stone as a better indicator of justice than the mind stone. You could look directly at the crime, as it happened.

"Then I wonder, why has this not been addressed? If such is true, and if Toby has had the time to patch all the plot holes, then why did he not explain that this slash is not real, perhaps by simply making some monster ask about where your attack came from?"

It IS real. It's invisible.

"Also, WHY did Sans know?"

His research with Gaster helped him discover these laws. And as is implied from the Genocide battle, he can tell your feelings just by looking at your face, with a great level of accuracy, to the point where he can tell that you've died exactly eight times. So, perhaps he knew when you were about to attack, by reading your face, then dodged at the right moment!

"Not the HUD. The maximum is 20."

According to Sans, yes. For humans, yes. For monsters, perhaps yes as well, and this could be his basis. But for the flower, who also has six SOULs? Besides, it matches our HUD exactly, in terms of layout.

"It may not be about those people. After all, there may have been other monsters with the same powers as them back then. And the humans...? I mean, the monsters probably knew a thing or two about humans when they were still on the surface, right?"

At the level of the Middle Ages? At that point, there wasn't real psychology. Sure, they likely knew humans were stronger, but getting down to know the traits, and how they all work? Considering the nature of the Ball Game, and the connections you've established, if the game was indeed built before Chara fell, the monsters used the Vedas for reference.

"Because the transfer of power wasn't perfect, due to his soul being composite. Omega Flowey didn't go through this, because he didn't want to reset. But I ASSUME he would need to, since his soul was composite as well. That's my explanation."

Yes, Omega Flowey never tried to RESET..