Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180730162339

"That's rather an argument I would expect you to use when arguing for whatever nonsense."

I cite Asriel Dreemurr, Monster Kid (having parents, plural), Snowdrake....

"In this sole case, yes."

This was actually one of the more complex scenarios, the closest you could argue to a monster NOT initiating the fight. Besides, the monsters likely know you're a human, as the monsters in New Home seem to indicate, and Toriel's phrase about this. And the Froggit that says "please, use some MERCY, human". And how "if you ACT a certain way, they might not want to fight you anymore." ANYMORE. Implying they did before.

"Because we aren't an enemy to them. Yes, they are attacking us, but that's just our point of view."

Not according to some quotes from the game itself.

"You are expecting every monster to be a medic. That's not basic at all imo. And those few monster species that could conjure them effortlessly might have just been exceptions."

They need not be medics-All they have to do is change what form of magic they use is! It's really that simple! Monster food heals as well, so perhaps green bullets and monster food use similar or the same kind of magic.

"Why not?"

Because even if we say it's not, things would go exactly the same, including from our perspective, and because there is a CLEAR EXCEPTION to the rule. No universal rule can have exceptions, PERIOD. No two monsters usually talk at the same time, because they don't have a reason to-If they both only talk to you in response to an action, and you can only act on one monster at a time, OF COURSE no two monsters will speak at the same time!

"And if yes, then why can't everything be like this, that is, 'not a universal rule?' Where are you drawing the line?"

If there's clear exceptions, it's not a rule. I'll leave it at that for right now, but usually, if you can take away the rule without altering what happens within the game AT ALL (yes, that includes those details like Asgore destroying MERCY), it's best not to call it a rule for simplicity's sake. If monsters only talk to you when you ACT, and you can't ACT on two different entities, that alone gives us the conclusion that we won't see two monsters speaking at the same time. But the real reason why I said it can't be a rule is because it was broken. That's also why I said the rule isn't that you can't fight on a monster's turn, but that you need to be able to reach the button to fight, and why I said there's nothing stopping a monster from attacking during your turn, but as they just see that your SOUL vanished, they have no reason to attack.

"Only if they were all encountering humans on a regular basis, which is impossible."

There's a thing called school. There's a thing called safety lessons. There's a thing called learning the basic mechanics of the world. If we can get taught that two objects fall from gravity at the same weight, and the reason why a feather takes longer to fall than an anvil is because of air resistance, that motion is in fact relative, and get taught about dinosaurs even though we never encounter them, then how far-fetched is it for them to be taught that turns exist in some physics class? When they actually have a chance of experiencing this effect for themselves? Given the lifespan of monsters, just about every monster will be alive to see a human appear-A sizable portion would see two or more in their lifetime. Compare that to the odds of living to see a building you're nearby catch on fire. Yet we're taught how to be safe in the latter case. Or, for a closer value, the odds of getting in a car crash. And you're required to wear a seat belt because of this.

"Because gravity,"

Gravity is what we CALL the distortion in space-time:I'm looking for the CAUSE. The REASON.

"because symmetry"

What do you mean "symmetry"?

"and because the reduced Planck's constant being dependant on the product of quantum position and momentum."

You got the role flipped. Plank's constant was a measument of how small the quanitization of energy really is. We measured it to be what it is BECAUSE of how weird quantum physics is, not the other way around.

"We are dealing with measurable phenomena here. Now explain how is the HUD measurable... it really isn't. The best and only explanation so far is computer code."

Measurable =/= Explainable

But, for fun, I'll "measure" some of these aspects.

The visible HUD is some kind of construct, that exists in space relative to us. Since the visibility of the HUD is directly dependent on determination, we can conclude that determination either contains the HUD within it, or that it connects with the HUD in some way, to allow it to be visible-I'll just call it the HUD force, because hey, why not?

Now, to the actual effects OF it. Many things aren't the HUD at all-The universe is simply 4-dimensional:The past exists as a real thing, just in the other direction:So you could say the file, when loaded, just brings everyone in its range, and brings them all back to the time period the file was SAVEd in, while destroying the original entities. A RESET changes the F.U.N value, so this is accomplished by literally sending everyone to a parallel universe. This might be possible by destroying the universe, and then causing another Big Bang, before sending everyone forward to the time they gained the power from.

Turn-based is rather simple, when we take into account that this only happens when one side has the HUD, and the other side doesn't. (This is likely the real reason why Omega Flowey's fight was so different than usual:We have the HUD, but so does Flowey.) The buttons obviously determine what happens-The FIGHT button delivers an attack based on the ATK of the user, and the accuracy of the attack (It's a function based on the distance from the center-Perhaps we'll be able to find out what that function is sometime, the same way the gravitational constant was discovered.) In order for it to work, however, the SOUL power and stats that is contained within the SOUL MUST connect with the FIGHT command, as that is what fuels the attack with the energy that will be exerted. However, once the damage is dealt, that will take energy AWAY from what was used to teleport the SOUL from option to option, and this, combined with some property of the monsters, will cause it to enter the box. It's released from the box once the monster attacks, and then stops attacking-So what's going on here? Well, monsters are magical, are they not? Perhaps there is some kind of magic barrier-Let's call it the magic-field, which disallows human SOULs to teleport themselves, by disallowing magic entirely there. However, in order for monsters to attack, they must break this barrier-From evolution, the monster now does this automatically when an attack is fired. However, these attacks are magical in nature, and interfere with the little magic that exists within the human SOUL, which means it STILL can't teleport back, until the monster has finished attacking.

How? Why? Well, that's as far as we can go-Just like in the three scientific cases I cited.

"We couldn't see them shatter. We only saw the overpowering light from the barrier shattering. Does that make sense?"

We didn't HEAR them shatter either. But we heard the barrier break.

"They buried them elsewhere. Probably upon Toriel's request anyways. Or maybe the skeletons are still there, we really can't see inside and can only inspect Chara's coffin. Though the former explains why the coffins are opened better."

The humans died to Asgore-They wouldn't think to give their final wish to Toriel back in the RUINS. And Asgore wouldn't really give them a chance to make their final wish to HIM-While we could argue that he would let the other six humans leave and do their business the same way that he did that with us, the Ruins door only goes one-way, so they wouldn't be able to backtrack to Toriel anyway.

"Because of how much DT is needed to make a soul persist after death. There's a reason why human souls are so strong. It's because that much power is required to make them persist."

Boss monsters persist for a few seconds, so we can say they're close to the amount required to fully persist, because of DT magic. (Identical to SOUL magic, but with DT rather than SOUL power) If it can persist for a few precious seconds, rather than almost instantly, then the DT being created is close, but not quite, the same as the amount of DT that's required to persist. If we knock out DT magic, well, Boss Monsters are a part of monsters as well, right? And the human SOULs in Asgore's castle have lasted for many, MANY years. So, if we assume that DT is actually depleted for every second persistence happens from, that makes a human have more than 50,000,000 times the DT of a monster! (Conservative:There's 31,557,600 seconds in one year.) Which means at least one of three things must be true:

1:The current monster population is more than 50,000,000 (Which is too far-fetched)

2:DT is NOT SOUL power, which means there is no contradiction with all the power combined being one SOUL. But, if BOSS monsters were 1/50,000,000 times less determined than humans, they wouldn't be as determined as they are.

3:DT magic is indeed a real thing. (If DT is SOUL power, then DT magic=SOUL magic, else, we can't make conclusions about that yet.)

"And if you do the math, if you assume that all of monsterkind is equal to 1.499 human souls at most (this is as much as rounding allows us to assume, without the original statement sounding weird - why compare to 1 human soul, when the power is closer to 2?), then that leaves just 0.083 or 8% DT capacity for each human soul (0.499/6 = 0.083). Which is way too little to make any of them persist imo."

If one Boss Monster SOUL is close to what you need, then perhaps not. There's at least 322 monsters, likely thousands, so this isn't really too far-fetched. So if we make it a reasonable .1 (0.1/6=.01666), we still have a good possibility of there being enough, because 322 is over quintuple 60.

"And that's not even factoring in the DT needed for the monsters, assuming they too need at least a little bit of it to stay alive normally."

Yes, they do, since DT seems to be the will to live, life itself. But that number can get arbitrarily small.

"My explanation for that is that their DT was drained, but they don't need DT to exist, they rely on magic. For them, DT is just a niche concept, just like magic and humans - they don't need it to survive."

The DT that was injected into Flowey was defined as "the will to live." Therefore, if monsters had none, they couldn't live. And SOUL power is how powerful you are:So if you have this low of a SOUL power, yeah, you really can't do much.

"Why, are we a boss encounter to them?"

We're far more powerful than a boss monster, are we not? If boss monsters are bosses to us, and they're WEAKER, then of COURSE we'd be like a boss to them.

"And why should it?"

It offers the only reasonable explanation for the HUD we've got. It's how we make a theory of everything (in Undertale physics) possible. Once again-What's more reasonable:Monsters are being mind controlled, this is the Matrix, or that the monsters have learned how turns work the same way humans learn mechanics all the time? I have to ask:Why SHOULDN'T it? We have a third, reasonable, logical explanation RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

"We still aren't seeing the full picture. What about that last Froggit? Isn't it the proof that these monsters didn't know you were a human?"

I already told you, freedom can also mean death. Gerson plainly states that. Take the prophecy: Some assumed that assumed it meant the “angel" of death” would "free" them from this mortal realm. So clearly, among monsters, it is an ambiguous word. That last one thinks Frisk should be happy, for with their sacrifice comes the freedom of all monsters, while Frisk is "free" as well:Free from the mortal realm.

"Maybe we asked about what happened there (as Frisk can sometimes speak without our consent or input), so they assumed we are a monster that hasn't heard the story yet (we wear stripes, so maybe they figured we are very young and this is all new to us)."

THEY encountered US, and we don't see them on the overworld. Therefore, we weren't the ones that initiated the story, they did-We couldn't have asked about it.