Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190403163405/@comment-26006155-20190415094958

https://undertale.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:162205#21 Reply to Ambassador - Chapter 4

Set for spike:

--“And a key to learning about Determination is in the history of Undyne, the head of the Royal Guard. Because at some point in her life, this willowy fish person underwent an amazing transformation.” --Ambassador: “That only happens in Genocide, Ferret.”

You gotta be more careful about your replies.

Underneath her massive dreadknight armor, Undyne is a rail-thin wisp of a stick-figure. There is nothing about her appearance that suggests herculean strength was ever one of the gifts she had since birth.

Yet somehow, this tiny monster is able to wield massive 10-foot long sorts and wear armor heavier than SHE is, and make it all look natural and easy. Undyne is actually surprised to learn that most humans don’t go around brandishing massive swords. Why not, if it’s so easy?

Undyne picks Frisk up BY THE HEAD and smashes him down effortlessly by the stove.

And somehow this tiny fish became the Head of the Royal Guard.

I’m not talking about Undyne becoming Undyne the Undying. I’m talking about how a smaller-than-average monster gained a strength well beyond those far larger than her. A power she had at the beginning of Undertale.

Undyne has Determination in her neutral boss fight. If you try to actually kill her on a neutral run, it flat out tells you this, and you get to see her fend off death and eventually melt horribly. The Undying transformation is simply a Super Saiyan 2 version of this, but Undyne went Super Saiyan 1 well before this. And this first transformation is what I’m talking about.

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Actually, I did get the details of Undyne’s training with Asgore down. The hit she finally managed to land on him after years of training knocked him down:

--Early in life, Undyne trained as hard as she could to try and best King Asgore in the sparring ring. But even after years of training, all she managed to do was land a single hit on him! King Fluffybuns outclasses her so badly he was actually apologetic about it, and congratulated Undyne when she did succeed in landing that hit! A--You got the story wrong. Here's the real story:https://youtu.be/7vcHXmzX5kg?t=394 A--She didn't land a single hit at first. But eventually, after training, she knocked him down. Not just hitting him, actually knocking him down. She beat Asgore. Then, she kept training, and eventually became the Captain of the Royal Guard.

Please save grandiose statements for when they are called for. You’re going to embarrass yourself.

--

Time for a combo:

-Asgore was one of the rare and powerful Boss Monster goats, while Undyne was a normal stick-person of a fish monster. She never should have had a chance against Asgore in the first place, and landing even one hit was a big accomplishment! A- It wasn't just one hit! -And yet, many endings where Undyne and Toriel are both alive, Toriel reverses Asgore’s policy of killing humans, only to have Undyne personally kick Toriel, the Queen of All Monsters, off her throne “with her strength” as Sans tells the tale. A-Yes. If she can beat Asgore, she can beat Toriel.

I’m going to counter that with the very link you provided above: https://youtu.be/7vcHXmzX5kg?t=394 Undyne did not BEAT Asgore.. She knocked him down. A single successful strike.. After years of nothing but misses. If Asgore stood up again, the next one would probably miss.

This is very different from throwing Toriel off the Throne of the Monsters. Undyne would have to not only strike Toriel consistently, should would also have to dodge all of the attacks of a creature who defeated Asgore with a single fireball. Toriel’s stats are A80 D80. Undyne’s stats are A7 D0. Even assuming years of additional training, the chances of Undyne actually defeating Toriel in a real battle are laughable. And yet… according to Sans.. she performed this very feat in some of the bad endings.

Undyne has probably been drinking the Pink Stuff Alphys has been providing her for some time. Perhaps this is also how she was able to become head of the Royal Guard over time?

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-Undertale makes a point in telling us that, somehow, Undyne has Determination within her. Even though this powerful substance is only generated by human souls. A-That's wrong. Humans just have far more determination. Determination is the will to live, if monsters had no DT, they literally wouldn't be alive.

You seem to consider yourself a higher authority on Undertale lore than Toby and the entire Undertale community, able to actively rewrite the lore on a whim to fit whatever you want it to be.

And that argument you just made counters your other argument that Gaster’s DE Experiments must have occurred at a time when six human souls had already been captured, because otherwise Gaster would have had no source of Determination to work with.

Determination is NOT GENERATED BY MONSTER SOULS. Alphys and Gaster could only extract it from human souls. Undyne is a freak for having it, and the only reason she has it is because of a bizarre scientific desert experiment.

Other than the Amalgamates, and perhaps ghosts like Napstablook, no other monster we encounter in the game shows the Determination Melting and malleability that results from its presence, other than Undyne.

For your arrogance, I’m declaring Combo 3.

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A small patch of seagrass is where we find the dancing shoes, an artifact of one of the six fallen humans, very deliberately placed.

Since then, the seagrass has spread to other places. Like the large patch Frisk hid in when Undyne had her conversation with Papyrus. Much like how the Golden Flowers infused with Asriel/Chara’s energy spread to other places as well.

In fact, I wonder if that might be why the seagrass was right where it had to be to protect Frisk from Undyne? That’s an interesting thing to ponder.

---”The patch of seagrass Frisk hides in isn’t the same as the one the Old Shoes are found in. But if the seagrass acts anything like Asriel’s golden flowers, the new patches probably do contain some essense of the original human A--”That actually doesn't even matter! The amount of grass Alphys has is actually less than the grass that the Old Shoes are found in. Also, "essence", not "essense". And maybe there was more grass there before Alphys took some off. The amount of grass there is suspiciously small.. But Ferret.. Essence is not the same thing as determination.. “

You play VERY FAST AND LOOSE with how ready you are to declare that lore details don’t matter.

Here we have a second case where exposure to the remains of a dead human causes plants to behave in a strange way and gain unusual properties.

This matters a lot. It gives us a frame of reference for the Golden Flowers.

That you would not only casually toss this information away, but actually mock someone who brings it up in a snide fashion, makes me wonder if you’re ok?

What’s this “mystery kickstarter game” you’re talking about?

--

What gave me the idea that Shyren is young? Because she becomes a traveling pop star, although she starts out very self-conscious.

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My point about the Fallen Down monsters was that NONE of them turned to dust on Alphy’s watch. She never got to test of her hypothesis about monster souls could be collected after Fallen Down monsters turned to dust.. Because none of them did, they woke up again.

They didn’t turn to dust because someone had -already- injected them with Determination as part of the process of stealing their souls. Something that the Waterfall Glyphs themselves say is possible, but would take a lot of energy.

Omega Flowey and the Amalgamates are certainly different types of fusions. Because Omega Flowey contains several different souls that stay separate and don’t actually combine in the fusion. While the Amalgamates blend completely and inseparably, because there are no souls in that soup, and nothing to keep the bodies from merging together perfectly.

For an “uncontrolled experiment”, the Fallen all seemed to undergo the same type of transformation.

They probably merged together when they first touched each other, and found there was no way to seperate.

But Undyne touched Monster Kid several times, and nerve merged with him.

It’s easy to dismiss Monster Kid making a huge point about ‘OMG! Undyne TOUCHED ME!!!’ as just humor, but I see this as a hidden lore reveal.

Undyne’s case is definitely very different from all the Fallen Down monsters. Even though, technically, she case is a lot simpler than theirs.

This is a mystery, Ambassador. Prefer for the clues to be hidden in jokes, and the last places you’d expect to look.