Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-28974149-20180305043309/@comment-28974149-20180324220139

"TheHumanAmbassador wrote: "Actually that's what we call a hint , note that Toby over explained everything instead of saying "It's just bugfixs" he added alot of extra detail. "There's no reason to replay the game or anything." That a pretty suspicious thing to say. . .  It was a clue."

If there's only bugfixes, of course there's no reason to replay the game.

"Like, for example:  "Where are the cookies."  "They're NOT in the 5th cabinet. So whatever you do, don't look in there."  It's reverse psycology."

He simply said there were just bugfixes, and therefore, no reason to replay the game.

"Besides, lying about a patch and lying on a Kickstarter while using the 51,025 dollars the fans gave to you expecting everything from it is a totally different animal, I am aware there are some dirty assholes who completely lie on the kickstarter but do you really accuse our Toby Fox of such a thing?"

I do, and I have proof that he did indeed lie on the kickstarter. The same kickstarter said you would literally have a robot husband. We never date Mettaton in the game. Therefore, that is indeed a lie. And if he lied on the Kickstarter once, why not a second a time?

"..How dare you? You have no faith in the creator of this game we love?"

I did, but he shattered my faith in him.

"Toby has shown that he is completely honest about this, there were a few things that had to be left out of the game and he wasted no time in announcing this and apologizing. And also assured that the only Risk was that he wouldn't finish the game on time ."

Specifically, the game we have right now.

Also, why can't Toby saying there won't be a sequel be a case of this? The "something new" in 2016 likely was the Undertale Alarm Clock app.. Or maybe something non-Undertale related! After all, Toby did Homestuck before he did Undertale!

"He is a good honest annoying dog. The best qualities an annoying dog could have, honestly."

The annoying dog robs us of our artifact... ...The annoying dog isn't good. Toby might be, but not the dog.

"Undertale 2? There is going to be no "Undertale 2" He assured us that he would never make a direct sequel.  But that leaves alot of wiggle room for a game that's in-universe but not connected to anything or a prequel. Which I think is what "Shrouded in Darkness" is most likely going to be since Gaster only exists in the past now."

Gaster's no mystery. There's no need to make a game about him.

"We know what that other creation is it's nothing new:"

Yep, the machine in Sans' room. Gaster's no mystery.

"And we know Toby said "they" tried to fix it, but it's impossible... W. D. Gaster is lost forever... all that's left is the CORE, this little lab, and our favorite Skelebros who we know our related in some way due to their "Gaster Blaster" move, which Papyrus implies is his true special attack, and Sans' metaknowledge of how the Universe works."

Yep, they're related to Gaster alright.

"We do know alot about Gaster, in fact, Gaster himself isn't really a mystery but what IS is his connection to Sans and Papyrus and to Suzy.   Who were all these guys?"

We have no evidence that "Suzy" is connected to Gaster. Sure, they're both mysterious entities, but that doesn't mean they're related.

"Who were these "Gaster Follower" guys before they became Spacetime-y  wanderers?"

The people we don't recognize, of course.

"Why do they look like NPC's that already exist? Are they alternate versions from the dead timeline? Or siblings? Same species?"

Same species. There's only so many species, after all. There is a more complicated explanation, but I haven't even gotten halfway through it, and it would involve a LOT of meta-ness.. So I'm just going with same species for now.

"And we know little to nothing about who the skele brothers are All we know is Papyrus feels lonely and just wants friends and fame, but he doesn't know why he wants these things according to his lost soul dialogue...
 * I MUST CAPTURE A HUMAN!
 * THEN EVERYONE WILL.

He's lost. He does't have his memories. That's why he's "lost" in the first place. He wants these things for the same reason why everybody else wants to be like Mettaton.

"Alas, Poor Papyrus.   It's pretty weird y'know considering everybody loves him and if he dies in a neutral ending the monsters overthrow the longstanding Dreemurr dynasty."

...That happens if you kill too many monsters PERIOD. Also, by "everybody loves him", do you mean the fandom? Because Papyrus wants the other monsters to love him, and is a dozen away from a double-digit count.. Meaning he literally has NEGATIVE followers. So unless you mean the fanbass, this statement is inaccurate. And if you do mean the fandom.. Well, we don't exactly exist in the game's lore..

"Is creative, loves building and tinkering with things such as puzzles, has a complex tome of puzzles, likes to be read a children's book at night, has an intelligent vocabulary except for those times when he makes up words for fun, has a vague knowledge of 'other endings'"

The worst possible ending, where Papyrus never becomes a Royal Guard. The end of a dream.

"hates Sans' puns but likes it when Undyne does them and occasionally does them"

He hates Sans using puns to be LAZY. Also, they're "bad" puns.. What about good puns?

"wants to capture you but doesn't want to kill you"

Killing you is Asgore's job. His job is to capture the human and send it to Asgore. This is because if he kills the human on his own, and doesn't put it into a SOUL capsule, the SOUL could get away!

"and also believes others can be as GREAT as he narcissistically thinks he is if they just try."


 * Sans:Do you think even the worst person could change? That everyone could be a good person, if they just try?

Papyrus:OF COURSE THEY CAN!

Sans:Bro. Aren't you supposed to be dead?|

But yeah, he does believe that we can change even after we kill him.

"Wants to assume the role of protector and idolizes Undyne for doing so. He is Sans' overly happy and strangely taller and stronger younger brother who also dreams of selling flames, a literal fire sale."

No, he dreams of becoming the Royal Guard. And possibly making spaghetti...?

"And we know Sans, the shorter, weaker, older brother, likes puns and jokes and even does standup at MTT resort, loves greasy food, practically lives at grillbys to the point that the place adopts his theme, dislikes making promises for some unknown reason"

We know the reason-It's stated in the Genocide Route. After you've killed everyone, he goes "sorry, old lady. This is why I never make promises". The "old lady" here is Toriel. He hates making promises because he knows things can change. That eventually, there's a point where keeping the promise isn't worth it, and that therefore, it's better to not make any to begin with.

"has hatred of humans but was nice to us because of the promise he made to Toriel"

We could be dead where we stand because, well.. Sans is supposed to capture humans?

"is very observant unlike his seemingly oblivious brother, knows alot about the universe, has done reports with someone, and has given up on something important in the past wanting to go "back" "home"."

That someone is Gaster.

"Likes sci-fi stuff, enjoys pranking others across Time and Space to the point where Papyrus sees it as an everyday thing, has strange reality manipulating ability that he shouldn't have and has given him more stregnth than is natural to him, and is depressed as he knows his entire universe is at our mercy and genocide."

And even afterwards, it can all be reset..

"And they both have to power to influence gravity, a scientific soul mode(and as we know monster magic is based on their own self-expression, who they are.) on the soul. We also know they are mirror images of each other, their characters are constantly butting heads."

They do agree on some things, and they bond over each other. They're not total opposites.

"Papyrus is stronger than Sans but at the same time is paradoxically weak due to wanting to give you mercy and fearing you in genocide(Alot like a Superhero he knows he has great power but wants to hold back and capture his enemies not kill them...he even dresses like one and his theme is even organized  like a classic style super hero theme.  The Great Papyrus is a title similar to the Amazing Spiderman in fact.), we only see his stregnth when he does his "super cool normal attacks" and Undyne mentions that Papyrus is no pushover. While Sans is weak but has paradoxical strength at the same time.   It's also interesting how the difficulty spike increases when you fight Papyrus and how you have the option to skip his fight if you die enough.  He maybe easy mode Sans, but Sans is pretty tough."

Yep. That's how knolwedge is better than brute strength if you aren't even going to use the strength.

"Another interesting thing to note is that Papyrus is intelligent enough and calculated enough to know how hard to hit you without killing you, sending you to 1hp every time."

This could just be because he doesn't want to fight, which lowers his attack. Toriel does something similar, although she's more obvious about it, by literally moving her flames away from you.

"That's alot, cool, but as you see from Sans there is alot of mystery, in fact, both of them have absolutely no trace-ble past."

Gaster.

"They are only known to have come in the recent past just "appearing" one day out of nowhere and "asserting themselves"."

Nobody remembers Gaster. Sans and Papyrus came from Gaster. Therefore, nobody remembers what Sans and Papyrus came from.

"There is also the interesting fact that undertale follows video game rules, that is, every monster has it's own habitat, and if so, Sans and Papyrus are out of place, Skeletal monsters belong in the lava level, in hotland. We know Gaster worked there but Sans and Papyrus are skeletons in a snow level... it's weird."

They could also just be using classical evolution rules. Hot monsters belong in Hotland, snowlike monsters go in Snowdin, and monsters better fit for a water envoriment belong in Waterfall. Skeletons are bones of humans, and therefore.. Don't necessarily belong in Hotland.

"And we know Alphys was an weeb lizard living among trash in waterfall until Gaster's absence allowed that she, with a misguided crush on Asgore led her to build Mettaton's body and collude with her friend to create the mettaton that we know and love and accidentily become the royal scientist."

She moved to the trash AFTER all of that. Entry 21.

"Just something to note.  Either way every scrap of evidence we can find about Gaster has been found, the game has been 100% datamined, and we still have all these questions... questions, only "Shrouded in Darkness" can answer."

Or we never bothered to try and piece the evidence all together. There's so much evidence that it could take years for us to break it all down. "If there's only bugfixes, of course there's no reason to replay the game."

"He simply said there were just bugfixes, and therefore, no reason to replay the game."

We know what he said, it's what he meant that is the issue, he was being too suspicious (And obvious, anyone could figure out that if it's "just bugfixes" there is no reason to replay the game, do you really think Toby thinks we're stupid? If he did he wouldn't put hidden secrets expecting us to find them...)

He was giving a hint using double meanings, he's done this before, in Undertale's kickstarter trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf8L4S9cixc) he hints at the only recently discovered "B A L L" code  that makes the game play some music when you type "Ball" on the undertale title screen. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOTU46VPdUc)  "You'll be sure to have a BALL!" -Annoying Dog/Toby Fox. Flowey says lines that hint at the FUN value "Golly, After all the FUN we had in the DEMO..."

"I do, and I have proof that he did indeed lie on the kickstarter. The same kickstarter said you would literally have a robot husband. We never date Mettaton in the game. Therefore, that is indeed a lie. And if he lied on the Kickstarter once, why not a second a time?"

Buddy, what do you think I was talking about when I mentioned, "

Toby has shown that he is completely honest about this, there were a few things that had to be left out of the game and he wasted no time in announcing this and apologizing. And also assured that the only Risk was that he wouldn't finish the game on time .

He is a good honest annoying dog. The best qualities an annoying dog could have, honestly. "

(Link : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1002143342/undertale/posts/1280253 )

This link above when he announced that the Instruction Manuel and Robot Husband parts were not happening due to Game Maker technical issues and Plot reworking. He then acknowledged that these were all the dissapointing things about the game and life in general.

"Specifically, the game we have right now."

Um... Yes? ...

"Also, why can't Toby saying there won't be a sequel be a case of this? The "something new" in 2016 likely was the Undertale Alarm Clock app.. Or maybe something non-Undertale related! After all, Toby did Homestuck before he did Undertale!"

Doesn't seem very hinty to me but it's possible, but then again there is no way to make a Gaster related sequel as Gaster has "vanished without a trace". And exists in the past. Besides the entire mystery lies in the past, in the backstories, in the event that shattered Gaster. It was not the Alarm Clock app, in his "something new" announcement he made several parallels to what he said the other game that had to do with Undertale's world would be, "Shrouded in Darkness" and as you know the other game and the alarm clock app are too totally different things. Also he announced the Alarm Clock app on his tumblr in 2017 not 2016. Though Backers would know about it much earlier in a post he made announcing that he was working on KS stuff like the comic and the alarm clock app but that thinking about Undertale all the time was tiring him out and that he would take a break, and then...one day. "They" will surface out of nowhere, like a birthday present for a birthday we didn't even know we had.

​​​​​​​https://i.redditmedia.com/pmVTpB11eV3b-6SScXvt3h7BPP9ZaIOp_V_heZoTcK0.jpg?w=320&s=62cfdebdf77fdfe09890c25cb01eaa21

"The annoying dog robs us of our artifact... ...The annoying dog isn't good. Toby might be, but not the dog." Toby has made it clear even in the game's files that the Annoying Dog is him. The sprite is called "tobydog" in the game. He also did this during the kickstarter trailer, the annoying dog comes up and says "Hi, I'm Toby Fox! Creator of Undertale!" he also does this at the end of Hardmode. And of course there's the dog room where the supposed origins of the game are said to be the dog's doing. True, the dog does steal our artifact but he leaves behind the dog salad a good healing item, and dog residues the latter being the absolute best way to grind money in the game as consolation. "

Interestingly enough the fact that the dog censors Papyrus' special attack in his fight is definately a reference to how Toby is keeping the Gaster stuff a mystery.

"Gaster's no mystery. There's no need to make a game about him."

Gaster is vague and his connections, Sans and Papyrus' pasts and Suzy are definately incomplete mysteries.

"We have no evidence that "Suzy" is connected to Gaster. Sure, they're both mysterious entities, but that doesn't mean they're related."

Suzy is connected to Sans, as the mere mention of her name changes the events that occur in Sans lab, triggering the event where the bad drawing of 3 smiley figures falls out in which Sans has written "don't forget." Also Toby Fox, roleplaying as Sans which he does often on the official Undertale tumblr when speaking in lowercase stated that Suzy is NOT monster kid when everyone kept speculating about it.

http://i.imgur.com/DW9tYKY.png

And of course, as we know, Sans is connected to Gaster and Suzy seems to not exist in this game as they are only mentioned in the game's files in the Clamgirl dialogue.

"The people we don't recognize, of course"

True, but the narration did specify "Alot" so these 4 probably aren't all of them.

"Same species. There's only so many species, after all. There is a more complicated explanation, but I haven't even gotten halfway through it, and it would involve a LOT of meta-ness.. So I'm just going with same species for now."

Oh? I'd like to here that.

"He's lost. He does't have his memories. That's why he's "lost" in the first place. He wants these things for the same reason why everybody else wants to be like Mettaton."

Untrue, the only thing the Lost Souls forget is their friendship with Frisk, the rest of their memories are intact, Asgore tells us that he kills humans because it is his duty, Toriel tells us that she never wants anyone to leave again, Sans tells us he gave up and that we should too, we'll never see our friends again, both of us. Undyne tells us we are the enemy and must die for what we did to Monster kind,  Alphys fears we hate her and regrets her past mistakes.

Not everyone, I can't say anything about the rest of monster kind but the only of the main cast who looks up to Mettaton is Papyrus(though, he never states he is WHY he dreams big. He just seems him as someone who suceeded in what he wants to do.)  and the only known side-NPC who wants to be like him is Burgerpants.

​​​​​​​"...That happens if you kill too many monsters PERIOD. Also, by "everybody loves him", do you mean the fandom? Because Papyrus wants the other monsters to love him, and is a dozen away from a double-digit count.. Meaning he literally has NEGATIVE followers. So unless you mean the fanbass, this statement is inaccurate. And if you do mean the fandom.. Well, we don't exactly exist in the game's lore.."

You're right, it also only ever happens if Undyne dies instead of Papyrus otherwise Undyne spearheads the rebellion. I mean in a neutral ending where you kill only Papyrus the entire Snowdin town says that there is something missing and feel like the world has become a worse place due to Papyrus being missing. Sans never hangs out with you again. Undyne gets PISSED OFF during her fight and impossible to befriend. (Althought this also true if you have any EXP.)  So yes, alot of people love him.

"He hates Sans using puns to be LAZY. Also, they're "bad" puns.. What about good puns?"

Actually it only ever happens if Undyne dies along with several monsters instead of Papyrus otherwise Undyne spearheads the rebellion. Untrue, there is cell phone dialogue where he makes a pun and then mentions to his horror that he has been hanging around Sans for way too long. It's likely he says he liked Undyne's puns to kiss up to her as so he doesn't ruin his chances of  getting into the guard, since in another line when Undyne reveals to Papyrus, who hates anime, that she loves Anime he quickly tries to claim(after saying he hated anime) that he is willing to watch anime and that watching cartoons is normal for an adult.

"Killing you is Asgore's job. His job is to capture the human and send it to Asgore. This is because if he kills the human on his own, and doesn't put it into a SOUL capsule, the SOUL could get away!"

Good point but what about genocide? Papyrus' stats fall and he says he's afraid and spares you, it's clear he does not want to kill us but fears our power, trying to teach us to be good, unfortunately due to his lowered stats, lowered by involuntary fear, he doesn't expect us to be able to take him down, which we do.... because as we know Monster's bodies are atune to their soul and if the monster feels weak, weak they become. It can't get away (though, we don't know why they just vanished in the end.. so maybe it could... it's not clear) but he could acceidentally absorb it and become PAFRISKUS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHXfdh6tp4o) Truly, a horrible beast being with unfathomable power.

"No, he dreams of becoming the Royal Guard. And possibly making spaghetti...?"

In a phonecall Papyrus mentions he dreams of selling flames. The royal guard are protectors, if he wants to join it he wants to protect everyone. After all he could opt to be the next mettaton or a famous basketball player or anything, why Royal Guard? He admires Undyne yet isn't too fond of killing anyone, even stating that Undyne sometimes grosses him out. Again to the superhero parallel he wants to be a guardsmen who captures their enemies and doesn't kill them. By the way, Undyne wants to kill us, I wonder if she carries around a soul capsule.

Papyrus became interested in being an UNPARALLELED SPAGHETOR!" when Undyne started teaching him to cook and after everyone said they liked his spaghetti.  But also claims the Royal Guard as his dream too.

"We know the reason-It's stated in the Genocide Route. After you've killed everyone, he goes "sorry, old lady. This is why I never make promises". The "old lady" here is Toriel. He hates making promises because he knows things can change. That eventually, there's a point where keeping the promise isn't worth it, and that therefore, it's better to not make any to begin with."

Yes but he must have learned that lesson in some unexplained moment in the past. No one is born knowing everything. Not even magic skeletons.

​​​​​​​"We could be dead where we stand because, well.. Sans is supposed to capture humans?"

He said dead. As in, he would have killed us. And it seems PERSONAL. Not just duty bound. After all he used his angry serious face.

"That someone is Gaster. "

Maybe, but "our reports" could imply more members (I shouldn't have said, someone.) and if Matpat's theory is to be considered it would be Papyrus, with them as Gaster.

"They do agree on some things, and they bond over each other. They're not total opposites."

No, I know. They are total opposites even their very designs (Papyrus is tall and thin-bones while Sans is short and thick-bones) are opposite. Even the colors they wear are exact opposites on the color wheel. Orange is the opposite of Blue and even in black in white they wear opposite colors. The way they deal with their existance is also opposite, Sans gives up due to what has happened to them and what he knows while Papyrus continues to strive for a good ending despite possibly still knowing.

http://static.tumblr.com/b079144dcbd9504307ebe920dd2fb899/piu1pwz/UP4o3pbo5/tumblr_static_ek7wslhmwkoookcco0o08ws0o.png

"Yep. That's how knolwedge is better than brute strength if you aren't even going to use the strength."

Well, it's not just knowledge, Knowledge is the dodge and knowledge is the timeline stuff and the fact that his stategy is to be as hard as possible to make us ragequit as he knows he cannot beat us. Thrre is something else, Sans can manipulate space and time with his "time jump" cut to black ability to catch us off guard and make shortcuts, that could only have come from DT experiments.

It's interesting to note that if you look at the Gaster Blaster sprite it looks kind of...melted? In the animation the "teeth" move and dangle when the blaster fires indicating they are not solid. And the whole mouth just looks like it is opening in a sticky way.. heck, the blast actually pushes the jaw apart in a goo-ey way.

"This could just be because he doesn't want to fight, which lowers his attack. Toriel does something similar, although she's more obvious about it, by literally moving her flames away from you."

Yes but Toriel can kill you by accident if you try hard enough, Papyrus stops the fight the FRAME you reach 1 hp.

"Gaster."

Yes but there is still much we don't know about that, we know they are connected by we don't know how.

"They could also just be using classical evolution rules. Hot monsters belong in Hotland, snowlike monsters go in Snowdin, and monsters better fit for a water envoriment belong in Waterfall. Skeletons are bones of humans, and therefore.. Don't necessarily belong in Hotland. "

While it's true that being without skin and flesh can allow a skeleton monster to survive in the snow levels, by classical evolution rules that can only be an adaptation to lava, as skeletons can survive falling into lava in video games.

"She moved to the trash AFTER all of that. Entry 21."

Wrong. Catty and Bratty About Mettaton then About Alphys dialogue. Accoridng to them Catty Bratty and Alphys knew each other and lived on the same street Presumably in the capital, Alphys would take them to the trash yard and spend alot of time there collecting Anime, then one day, to impress Asgore she built the Mettaton body and ended up Royal scientist.

"Or we never bothered to try and piece the evidence all together. There's so much evidence that it could take years for us to break it all down."

Years? You're exaggerating.

There are billions of theories, everyone has tried, in the end it's only speculaiton. We need comformation. There always ends up being little holes.

That's what this game will bring. Its happening, Toby said it would. In fact, in one update about the comic he made it clear that despite not having ideas for what more to say about Undertale besides his other game he made a promise so the comic will happen regardless. Then he asked the backers about ideas. And how it may be non-canon and humerous. So it shows that he is indeed a man of his word and will keep his promises.