Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180911131240

>You're the one who's blind, not me. SOUL Power is not mentioned in the plaques, that's all there is to it.

Boi, you really are confused, aren't you? :D

>I'm not discounting the other Neutral Routes! But I'm citing the pacifist route, because that route is ALL ABOUT GIVING MERCY! So your spiel about it representing neither Asgore or Frisk wanting to give mercy is invalidated.

Yes, because Asgore doesn't even get to smash the button there, since Toriel steps in first.

>Just like literally any other Alternate Universe in fiction.

Besides Undertale, I remember only two others that have behaved exactly like computer code, Matrix and Homestuck (though I'm sure there were many others). So first off, stop denying that universes, which are in actuality just simulated realities, cannot exist, and second off, admit that Undertale falls exactly into this category, unless we explain how in the heck can "turns" exist, rationally.

>The things presented are presented as natural things in this world, and Toby said as such on the Kickstarter.

Well of course these things are "natural". After all, if this was all that the inhabitants of the world ever knew, then what they're experiencing WOULD be natural to them, even if it was totally fake, since there's no way to tell that it is, really.

And here we get back to my original claim, that they must be mind controlled or something. Yes, our universe could be a simulation too, but at least it's not obvious. In Undertale, the evidence is basically screaming into our faces.

>The Battle System is clearly a way of fighting magically (think the Harry Potter duels)

Duels in Harry Potter do not employ turns. Nor buttons. They are still more akin to your "human on human" duels, except with magic instead of firearms.

>just able to factor combatants to make fair rules to accommodate.

What is fair and what isn't? How does the universe know? More proof that it's sentient and that all the monsters and humans are living in a virtual reality perhaps?

>Says the person who admitted to making arbitrary rules just to make his statements validated. Double standards much?

Hey, I have a better idea, how about we stop repeating ourselves? I have already explained myself on this matter.

>The invisible barriers have no implication, hints, or mention in any way in-universe or out of universe.

Except, you know, actually BEING there...

> find something in the game or stated by Toby that actually hints or states that these barriers exist, or it's just that either Frisk doesn't want to or just can't

The visuals. Now you go fetch me a statement confirming that the red trait is DT.

>Undertale is not built around that concept

But it would fit. Just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it cannot be true. Toby may have the freedom to do anything he wants with his new rules, but one thing he cannot neglect is logic, since logic is what we use to analyze everything. Now you come and say, "hey, logic doesn't actually apply here, because Toby didn't say anything". So wtf am I supposed to do, just blindly start believing that despite all the evidence, even if not meant as an evidence for anything by Toby, the world is NOT simulated for some reason?

Bruh, if we stuck to just the things that we know Toby had in mind, UT would be nothing more than its source code. Have a question? Analyze the code, the answer is there. Who is Gaster? Just some guy Toby decided to scrap. And all because Toby proclaimed that everything we see on the screen is actually happening in that world, even providing proof of this by letting certain characters, such as Sans, mention these mechanics.

Does that mean the history never happened and was just a slideshow inside Chara's memories? No, of course not, that's an insane claim! But... it demonstrates the point. What can we imply, and what cannot we imply? Imply everything, or nothing, or cherrypick?

What I've been doing so far is showing how everything would function if nothing was ever implied. You don't like that. My original point was that everything was implied. You didn't like that either. You start cherry-picking; I don't like that... Why? Because it goes against the rules of logic, assuming the "inside universe" has any at all.

You are stating "only mentions" are the only thing that can affirm our suppositions. A simple rule, which would also put the shop menu and the invisible barriers into the "canon" category however. And since Toby said that this is the case in the kickstarter, that what we see is real, you may as well start believing it. Or deny it, your choice.

I just wish you would not cherrypick. After all, isn't the shop menu similar to the ACT choice in battles? Why should they be categorized differently? They are even using the same highlighting syntax for new prompts, like the one for mercy, with the yellow names thing.

The key here is consistency. Consistency is an aspect of Occam's razor principle, which is an aspect of logic. It's not a rule, but we all want definitive answers. This is what helps us move past speculations. So start generalizing and simplifying your theories. After all, with enough assumptions and asterists, you can describe the game exactly the way it works, down to the absolute basics, because that's what programming languages do, they describe what has to happen using if:else statements and functions and whatnot. The challenge however, is to do the opposite.

>Except that I already disproved that when I pointed out that Omega Flowey didn't need to do that, due sot him - by your logic - having a composite SOUL.

There is no flaw in my reasoning concerning this. If you have explained it already as you're claiming, then I have either ignored it, because your proof was bs, or commented on it, and you decided to reject my comment for the exact same reason. Either way, I know what I was talking about. If you think you do too, please, restate your anti-thesis.

>Also, this is what I'm talking about when it comes to hypocrisy, you whine about "arbitrary rules" yet are fully fine with using and making them up just to keep your hypothesis afloat just a smidge longer.

If you know of a theory for Omega Flowey / Asriel with less asterists than mine, please, I'm all ears.

>Except that Gaster himself is a part of this world, and it would make no sense for him to do any of this, even for being a scientist.

I said exactly that. He can't create the HUD. It's above him. But timelines? Who knows what's possible when you start twiddling with magic and determination. We know next to nothing about their essence, like, what magic is, in context of other forces of the nature. Or maybe, it's not natural at all. What's more, we may have an indirect evidence. After all, it was one of his OWN experiments that shattered him across time and space. How much you wanna bet those save points are a side effect of these experiments of his?

>If they know how much is in the human SOUL, and how much Monsters have in comparison, then they would know how many monsters would equal one human SOUL

And they know precisely that. Where's the catch again?

>I never once said that the SOUL "reserves" DT, just that humans automatically have the amount necessary to persist after death and anything more is part of what determines the SOUL Trait. That's it, nothing more, no "capacity reader" or "reserving", that's all there is to it.

Why not utilize all that extra DT for something better in the meantime? Also, does that mean there's a treshold for the amount of "extra" DT that would make the soul red if reached? Some sort of a "mini" capacity reader?

>You can time travel at will, literally defy death, and destroy the world if you want to.

If that tiny amount of DT can do all of this, then humans must be literal gods, considering most of their DT is locked away as you're saying. Still, that "lockage" is an arbitrary rule. What if they're not actually locked? Wouldn't that make the other humans equally as powerful? Can you justify this hypothesis without employing an arbitrary rule? Because I have something way simpler: they all have the same powers. What Frisk did, all of them would be able to do too, assuming the same circumstance and mental health.

>then why can't a human's?

Because it's used as a metric, so it logically cannot. Besides, they have so much of it, they can practically already do everything. There's no need for it to fluctuate, but even if, we wouldn't be able to tell.

>If DT can't fluctuate in humans, then how did Frisk get the power to REFUSE? How did Frisk get the power to destroy the world (Frisk GAINED it, but Chara was the one who USED it)?

Frisk always had that power, just like the other children, but never before did they have so much "mental determination" in them too. Because despite their soul being filled with DT, one can still feel unmotivated, undetermined, correct? Obviously humans can do that, so something else must be fluctuating for them, if not DT. And only IF this something is at its maximum do the most difficult "DT cheats" get unlocked.

And Chara? How meta do you wanna go? Despite everything, they're still just a child. If you're saying that human-human fights don't utilize the HUD (and that neither does anything else where at least one side doesn't feature a monster attacker), then Chara couldn't have destroyed the world, only all the remaining monsters, because the HUD doesn't allow them to destroy anything else besides monsters this way (see the power of arbitrary rules?)

Also, why did we get locked out? I have an in-game hypothesis for that, but the simpler explanation is, that they've simply locked us out of the game and didn't actually destroy the world.

>They are a part of the SOUL, like DT; they are what make up DT, meaning that they and DT are the same kind of thing.

Affirmative, affirmative, unconfirmed.

>She clearly separated them as two separate things, that's all there is to it.

We were doing that with electricity and magnetism too at one point. Alphys followed her own cues and conclusions, she didn't provide any proof of her claims. The plaques however are an automatic proof, from principle.

>At this point, I'm just going to assume you're trolling.

Sure thing. Let's be each other's Kismesis. Ahh I can't wait to tell the other trolls.

>Also, the equation should be like this: X+B+J+K+Pt+I+Pv=SP, solve for X (representing DT).

Alright sweetie, now the final step, prove it. My claims do not require any such horrendous assumptions, so if you cannot do that, I'm automatically correct. That is, if you're seeking a definitive explanation. Also, didn't you just say that the other trais make up DT? Which is it then, do they make it up, or do they not?

>they dont't WANT to fight, but they do because they HAVE to in order to get that seventh SOUL.

If they know Toriel, then they know they cannot do that. And Toriel wouldn't leave us, knowing this would be a possible risk.

>That Frisk lost the ability to Omega Flowey after he gained the ability of S/L/R after absorbing the six human SOULS, WITHOUT needing to kill Frisk.

Ofc, you don't need to kill to get the saving power, I never said that. I said that only about the resetting power.

>If DT=SP, then the same would also apply to Monsters. However that immediately proves it's bogus, because Undyne's DT increased to near human levels that allowed her to achieve her Undying form.

Lol what makes you think her levels were near-human? Although it's true, monsters can generate their own DT, while humans cannot (since they've got way more than necessary anyways). That is another rule. But, once again, before the monster DT levels even start approaching the human levels, the monster begins to melt, since the amount of DT they can handle is proportional to the amount of physical matter inside them. Humans have their bodies. Monsters leave a pile of dust after them.

>if DT and SP were the same thing, then DT would be called SP and not DT

The monsters haven't figured that one out yet. Specifically, Alphys didn't. Just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't exist or cannot be true. After all, they aren't exactly sure what the "absolute nature" of a soul is. I'm pretty sure we do already. For humans, it's 1 essence + lots of DT + a little bit of magic. For monsters, it's 1 essence + lots of magic + a little bit of DT. So it's all magic. Meaning, that the next question is, what is magic itself?