Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190820122909/@comment-26006155-20190919170459

Ambassador, here's my response to your commentary about Chapter 8: https://undertale.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:164189#69

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I guess it was only Undyne who said " Undyne: The garbage dump!! So many great things come from there!! The only reason we have modern technology... Is 'cause of all the human junk that flows from the surface! Plus, it's a GREAT place to meet girls. " ( https://pcy.ulyssis.be/undertale/calls search for "technology" )

Undyne could been saying modern technology for all technology, she does seem to have trouble telling between modern human tech and anime. Or should could have been differentiating between Modern tech and the Future tech that went into the Core.

Undyne does visit the dump quite often. It's a great place to pick up girls, after all. She probably noticed that the modern human garbage looks very different from the things in Alphy's lab.

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It seems our biggest disagreement is when Gaster arrived.

It would have taken something of incredible power to make the monsters lose their ancestral fear of humanity to make their migration to New Home. And whatever it was the happened, it happened after Early 201X, when the Dreemurs were residing in the Ruins, and Asriel was their only child with a single bed.

Chara did not arrive until the Core/New Home complex was established. Chara arrived at the End of 201X while the MTT complex, complete with memorial fountain, was established in beforehand in mid 201X.

The only event I can find with enough power to cause this sea change in monster attitude would be Gaster's arrival. Gaster must have been present for the construction of the Core, and thus the establishment of New Home.

Toriel's handheld tape-based video recorder allowed her to record talking with Asgore about having a child before the migration, perhaps earlier than 201X, and is technology consistent with human technology of the same time. This is certainly gear the monsters could have salvaged from human garbage before Gaster's arrival.

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I don't know my Alphys says the Core converts geothermal energy to "magical electricity". This could mean electricity itself seems magical, but while backwards in some ways, I don't think the monsters, and Alphys in particular, are -that- backward.

Is Magical Electricity different from regular electricity? Are weapons powered by Magical Electricity able to hurt ghosts? Is this how Gaster Blasters might actually be able to blast Gaster?

It's still a mystery,

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My current theory is that Deltarune exists in the contined Alpha Timeline. A timeline where, apparently, Gaster is now in control. Perhaps the timeline when The Darkest Experiment actually worked.

In contrast to the world of Undertale, where Sans and Papyrus split the timeline by traveling to the past, to try to give his earlier self, Frisk, a fighting chance at heading off a terrible future.

Do they intersect? Yes. Remember that the donation box from The Dark World that fell through a hole felt into Undertale's garbage dump in some version of the game (Switch?).

Just like the parallel timelines of the Halloween Hack, where Ness and friends were able to PSI-link from their world to the dark timeline Varik lived in, the timelines can interact. And Giygas (and Gaster apparently) can re-invade worlds and times they've been previously removed from.

I have no doubt many details of the two timelines are very different now. Especially since Detlarune appears to be a Mirror Universe where many attributes of our characters are opposite. And a decade has probably passed since the timeline split, so who knows how far they could have drifted apart.

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Remember that what characters says doesn't always reflect what they know, or believe.

Papyrus seems able to enter Sans' room as well as Frisk, and his vocabulary is far in advance of what you'd expect from a moron, even if he makes a point of acting like one.. almost conspicuously.

Is Frisk the first human Papyrus has ever knowingly met? Somehow I doubt that. He's met Sans before, after all. And every other other monster in the game can idenfity humans by sight. Somehow I think Papyrus can too.

As I've said, I find Papyrus' (and Alphy's) behaviour at the end of the True Pacifist run suspicous. I don't think we can assume Papyrus didn't know about humans, or the queen. Especially since Sans has been texting the queen for some time, telling her all about Papyrus.

So your logic saying that Undertale must take place after Deltarune, doesn't seem sound to me.

It's not just Monster Kid who's gotten older. Our human has gotten older, too. Kris is taller than Frisk and Chara. And Gerson seems to be dead now, while he was still alive in Undertale.

And in Deltarune, Ralsei's instruction manual is published in 202X.

So I think Deltarune is definitely a sequel to Undertale. Even if time itself has been messed with.

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Alphys evacuating everyone to the True Lab, where the Dimensional Portal is located, would be the first logical step in transporting the monster refugees to another dimension where Chara couldn't get them.

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Gaster's technology must have been from another world.

The monsters, using their garbage studies, have access to the human technology of the world above.

In this world above, anime isn't real. Toriel knows that. The surface humans in Undertale's world have technology similar to our own world of the same year.

And yet, suddenly, real anime tech appears sometime after the start of 201X, and suddenly dimensional travel and cell phone jet packs become possible.

The monsters with their medeval society and Libarby are not known for innovating tech on their own. Yet suddenly they have access to wonders far beyond what even the surface humans have.

The Riverperson established that Gaster, the Man Who Speaks In Hands, is The Man From The Other World that we should beware. And he came to this world as Sans' traveling compansion, to invesitgate The Anomaly.

So no. Gaster isn't an Undertale Monster. He's from another time and place, and either learned how to work with Determination by experiementing on himself and Sans, or had already researched it back in his home dimension, which must have had humans in it.

The monsters did not research this future tech on their own, as you claim.

Two tech sources: Human Garbage and Gaster, are presented in the lore. And each one is very distinct from the other. This cannot be a conincidence. It's evidence for establishing the timeline.

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One evevator can take you from The True Lab right to Asgore's Castle. These places are connected.

The Core is where Gaster preformed his various research, and is the creation he fell into. Gaster was shattered in The True Lab. Which is definitely part of the Core complex.

Memoryhead seems to have six heads in it. While there does seem to be a link to Gaster in some fashion, I wonder if this might be residue from The Six Human Souls?

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Gaster performing (or knowing about) Determination Research before Chara's fall is not a paradox. It's surfire evidence that Gaster did have Determination to study before this time.

Somehow, someway, Gaster has had contacts with humans before Chara fell.

Since Sans seems to be a human, and Gaster was his traveling companion, and one of Gaster's follows is holding a talking human head that it says is a piece of him, I don't think it's a stretch to say Gaster was probably human too.

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While I agree with you that Chara was not the first human to vanish on Mout Ebbott, and that a civilization existed before Asgore's Kingdom that also seems to have been sealed underground and escaped somehow, Chara was certainly the first human to publicly arrive during Asgore's civilzation. Asgore has no stored human souls until the Six Human followed after Chara's death.

So this still means that if Gaster had knowledge of Determination before Chara's fall, he must have had contact with humans before this time.

I'm quite sure that Gaster and Sans did not want to advertize their status as humans. That's what the disguises are for.

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Sans tells us he ventured here to investigate The Anomaly.

Although Sans has seen the surface before, and knows what The Sun is, he doesn't consider the surface above The Underground to be his home. He lists The Surface and Home has two seperate things.

Sans traveled here, to the Underground, along with someone else. That's why he said "We". And if Sans had been the inventor of The Silver Key Machine, likely the vehicle used to make this trip, he could have repaired it himself. Instead, the machine remains broken.

Gaster is the only character we know who would have the power to bring this beyond-surface technology to the Underground. And the only one with the mad scientist brains to created a machine that jumped through time and space in the first place. Alphys has been able to recreate some of Gaster's work, but it's still all derivative of his own groundbreaking science.

"We" does mean Gaster's team. The team of Gaster and Sans. Two humans from another world.

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The Gaster Blasters were indeed invented.. by Gaster late in the Alpha Timeline, around when he recorded his version of Entry 17.

Sans and Papyrus took Gaster Blasters back to the past with them when they went back in time to created The Beta Timeline. And this adventure, somehow, resulted in Beta Gaster's early death before Chara even arrived.

I said the Gaster Blasters were never invented in Frisk/Undertale's timeline, and we don't find any evidence of them in The True Lab. They were brought from another timeline to here, after being invented by Alpha Gaster.

Alphys cannot be one of the two characters Gaster turned to and ask "What do you two think?"

If Alphys was an understudy of Gaster, she would have certainly been immediately tapped as his replacement upon his death. Instead.. Asgore had to search far and wide for years to find any monster who could even approach Gaster's ability, and finally settled for Alphys.

Alphys was not originally part of Gaster's party. She's exploring his abandoned laboratory and gradually uncovering secrets she was not privy too before.

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My main assumption about the two Entry 17's is that they were both indeed recorded at the same time... in two different timelines. With Alpha Gaster recording his time-lost version in the original timeline, and Alphys recording her own version in the Beta Timeline where Gaster had been long dead.

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... perhaps I should revisit something.

It does seem like Alphys and Sans are working together in the True Lab Entries, since some of the entries are all in lower-case. Which is Sans' trademark.

In the Alpha timeline... Alphys would have been around at the time of The Darkest Experiment, since she's clearly around at that time in the Beta timeline.

... so it is possible that Alphys could have been in Gaster's party in the Alpha Timeline.

Although, if Alphys was part of the team on the eve of The Darkest Experiment, why did only Sans and Papyrus travel to the past together, leaving Alpha Alphys behind?

Papyrus was certainly there. And Papyrus took the trip with Sans.

So although Alphys might have been active at this point in the Alpha Timeline, I still don't think she was one of the two others in the room with Gaster. This does look like a Font Brigade meeting.

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Saving and Loading allows someone to time traveling within their own timeline.. but I don't think it allows someone to rewind time back to before the Barrier was cast. At least not on their own.

I do think Alphys was trying to find away to dimensionally bypass the barrier as you described. But for whatever reason, it never succeeded, and she eventually had to turn to soul energy research instead.

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We agreed there was an earlier monster civilzation before Asgore's Kingdom.

And somehow, these ancient monsters, trapped in a realm with no entrances or exists, developed a means to harness monster soul power to eventually overpower their barrier and escape.

Perhaps the ancient monsters found Determination from a hybrid monster? A child of Kanashi perhaps, that first monster who absorbed a human soul?

CoolSkeleton95 couldn't have been born in 2095 because in 2095 monster technology would have progressed to a similar point their surface humans had.

Snowdin is based on modern, slightly rustic technology.

80 or so years in the future, any other technological gains, say from Gaster's otherworldly tech, would have spread through monster society.

There's no way Papyrus could have been born in 209X.

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Alphy's Entry 17 explains what she thinks happened to the Amalgamates.. based on what she saw.

Remember that she thought all the Fallen Monsters were normal cases, going in. Yet dying of old age doesn't explain why so many younger monsters were effected. Or why, unlike Undyne, none of the Fallen seemingly developed super powers from exposure to Determination.

Alphys might not even know that Undyne has Determination. She hurriedly confessed she just used the seagrass a human died in to make ice cream.

Keeping track of what characters do and don't know is crucial for unraveling a mystery.

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I'm sure both Alphys and Gaster planned on using a non-sentient flower as a vessel for something they could easily control.

Having high concentrations of Asriel's dust, infused with Chara's soul, on that flower may have been an unforseen complication.

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We know Gaster created flowey, because Flowey animated after Entry 17 on the parralell timelines.

Alphys had no idea where Flowey went. Alphys wasn't controlling flowey. It's as if Gaster's Darkest Experiment somehow woke Flowey up across timelines.

For that to the happen, the similarities between Gaster and Flowey across the timeliness must have been very strong.

And Elevator Voice, who somehow claims they haven'ted talked to us in a long time, while Flowey frequently has, is the same voice that comes out of Hyperdeath Asriel.

So I think Gaster is actually influencing Hyperdeath Asriel. Whether Asriel knows it or not.

I suppose we don't know if anime super-technology was common in Sans/Gaster's homeworld or not.

But Sans and Gaster came from it, carryijng amazing technology neverbefore seen by either the monsters or humans of Flowey's world.

The key point is that Gaster's technology did not come from the humans on the surface. It must have come from another world entirely, along with Gaster. And watching the impact of this event on the monster world tells us many things. Like why they lost their fear of the surface humans.

I suppose Sans and Gaster could have been using different costumes when they first visited the monsters. I'm just keeping with the ghost and skeleton costumes to keep things simple.

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It wouldn't be possible for Gaster to collect the souls of non-boss monsters, unless he had a source of human Determination he could inject into the monsters to make their souls persist long enough after death to be collected.

Determination research was all about collecting monster soul power as a means to break the Barrier, from the beginning. It's what Sans and Alphys were working on in the Beta timeline, and what Gaster must have been working on during the original Alpha timeline.

Sans didn't object to Alphy's approach of slowly collecting souls from dying monsters over a long period of time. Gaster must have been trying something different, for Sans to object to it so strongly.

Which is why I think Gaster was planning to genocide monsterkind with a Flowey-style soul vacuum, collecting all the souls required in one blast that would instantly drop the barrier, while also devastating the monster population.

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How did Frisk end up in the ruins, without a costume? I don't know.

I think the nature of The Anomaly is that, somehow, Sans and Chara crossed fates. And somehow Chara (us, the player) got control of Frisk/Beta Sans.

Sans wants to help his earlier self. But Frisk really isn't in control anymore, and Sans isn't sure what type of person The Player is. So, he tests us.

Perhaps rewinding the timeline blurred the lines between Sans and Chara somehow?

There's still a lot we don't know about the events before and after Undertale. There's plenty of room to explore.

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There seem to be different levels of Resetting.

Flowey gets reset physically each time you start a new game. But he always remembers details of the old game in that intro.

The only way to wipe all of his memories is to do a True Reset. And he can't remember how often you've done that, so he just assumes it's hundreds of times.