Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20170806172036

1.1)We're trying to explain how the items got to where they were found.

2)Strange, we don't see the same effect of being abanonded as we did with Pripyat. Is Toriel preservering the Ruins? :3

2.1)Well, that's why monsters have the midevial buildings they do in the Ruins. Because they ARE focusing more on magic than ballistics, up until 201X!

2.2)Once again, I don't see a flaw with the game, but a flaw with the THEORY. This is not a "plot hole", because it can easily be explained by saying that Frisk fell and freed the monsters around the present time. There, problem solved! When we found that Netwonian physics didn't match up with the real world, did we just blame God, and say he messed up on the universe?!?! No, we blamed the theory, and constructed a new one! Once again, Newtonian, or Einstien? (I choose Einstein)

3)Didn't Chara love the Dreemurr family? Wouldn't killing them actually try to prove Chara "wrong" instead of "right", if this really is the good Chara we know from the past? (Once again, BEFORE Chara died, they were good. AFTER Chara died? Nope.)

3.1)Well, they trust you from the very start of the game. What do you call it if someone BLINDLY trusts you, and then you strike them? Because that's what we're doing to Chara. Or at least, SHOULD be doing to Chara if we're killing the monsters they love. But, Chara has no commentary on it at all! In fact, they continue to help us, and even call us their partner! (They want to kill Toriel, Papyrus and Monster Kid-Why else would they say "Not worth talking to", "Forgettable", and "Looks like free EXP"? In 3.3, I'll rule out a possibility you might think will work..

3.2)When they're willing to scold you for something like giving two gifts, then they should be scolding Frisk for murdering their friends.

3.3)They are impressionable... Except we have to remember one HUGE detail on Chara:They hated humanity. Why wouldn't Chara take this as proof that humans really are the dispicable creatures they make them out to be? We're telling them to fight, but we're just more humans, murdering innocent monsters, just like what happened to Chara! Why aren't they, say, fighting US, but instead just accept what we're telling them? Also, JB is misreading the grammar of Chara's final speech in 15:30- It actually goes "Why was I brought back to life? You. With your guidance. I realised the purpose of my reincarnation." No comma after "your guidance." "your guidance" is how Chara was brought back to life, not how they realized the purpose of their reincarnation.

Now we have 19:30-"What ARE we looking for"?

Partner, I am here to begin the next phase of the plan. Take us to the next world to eradicate. ...No, I didn't say recreate this one, I said move on to the next. Chara?

Yeah, we probably came to actually move onto the next.

Next we move on to the follow-up video

7:25-Actually, Chara ISN'T getting the LOVE we do. Chara's name being on the stat screen means that they too have the power to SAVE and LOAD. When Flowey tells Chara to let Frisk live happy, this is exactly what's going on! Chara getting our EXP doesn't make logical sense. Besides, if it was THIER LOVE that increased, then our stats wouldn't be increasing as a result! But they do-We are moving around Frisk's SOUL in battle, and taking damage, eating items..

9:05-And yet they have the power neccessary to stop us from giving more than one gift to Gyftrot? Pretty inconsistent here. They DO have a choice. Now only that, they actively ENCOURAGE you to kill everyone! Sections 1-8 of this nochocolate post explains what I'm saying in more detail: http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/144667969564/cooperation-not-corruption-the-effects-of-kill

15:40-The other characters do this, but Chara does not. Why isn't Chara saying anything like the monsters are? I do agree that we're told not to several times over, but NOT by Chara. Chara's just going along with it.. why?

3.4-Yep, Chara starts taking control in the Sans fight, or after the Mettaton NEO fight. That's also when you can no longer switch away from the Genocide Route (unless you reset of course). As for influencing Chara's thinking, the now-lengthy 3.3 talks about this. (I guess that was to be expected though, since we have two whole videos to cover here.)

3.5-...You don't see the problem? When has destroying the world ever been a GOOD deed?!

I agree that Chara wasn't evil when they were alive. But, when we awaken them with determination, they are not the Chara Asriel once knew and loved. Their character had drastically changed. Perhaps it's because he's SOULless like Flowey? (Asriel calls himself the "Absolute GOD of hyperdeath".. before he's saved, aka:While he's still evil)

3.6-And yet, that would require that we, as the player, are our own, CANON, separate entity WITHIN Undertale, (perhaps the man who came from the other world..? I consider that to be Gaster, and "the other world" being the D-timeline in my "the player is not separate" canon, by the way) that just SOMEHOW manipulates Frisk (and we've proven that wrong, and you've lead that to say the player doesn't exist in the story.. So, is the player a canon thing in Undertale or not? How do they fit into the story? What is their relationship with Frisk and Chara? There's a game that explores the concept of the player existing as a separate entity very well-OneShot. And it flat-out requires you to "metagame", ie:Use information Niko would not know, as it's outside of the game. Why aren't we seeing Frisk try and speak to us? Why not Chara? Where are all the mentions of the player even.. existing? There's more hints to the HUD existing than to the player.. (Three hints to the HUD with no real explanation otherwise, one "hint" to the player that can easily be explained otherwise in a logical, consistent manner.) It's perfectly plausible to laugh at something that isn't funny.

In "but nobody came", we DO call out for help. Nobody coming is a response to the action we very well committed. We're "ACTING", and we can't control others' actions-Only reason why we're choosing Frisk's actions is because, as I said before, Frisk is just the character you're roleplaying-Canonically, you and Frisk are the same-There's no need to separate the two in the story. However, Frisk attempting to laugh (FRISK attempting to laugh, not the player telling Frisk to laugh), could somewhat fit in, and does seem to make sense. After all, we CHOOSE "gift" a second time, but Chara stops us, saying we're not made of money. We still chose "Gift" though. So choosing an action in the HUD meaning we're ATTEMPTING that action could somewhat fit in. How implausible would it be for Frisk to try to laugh, but fail anyway? (Actually seems like a simpler explanation, that fits into the Gyftrot example. That might just be my new headcanon!)

4)What presumed "absoluteness"? And shakiness of the text could just be the way Gaster speaks in general! But, it could also be a side effect of trying to look into Gaster at all. I mean, we're trying to read that message from another timeline, and the D-timeline is, well, DEAD. All evidence of Gaster started to split across space and time-Should we really expect the full entry to remain precisely intact? And with Alphys, there's still direct evidence. Flowey is SOULless, we know that from the Genocide Route speech. Flowey is the same kind of flower that Alphys injected with determination. With no SOUL. We actually have a kind of connection. And the flower was gone-Where did it go? That's how we figured it out. (I don't know if the game outright states Asriel's dust was spread to the flowers in the garden, aka the flower Alphys injected. If it does, then that means we actually have proof that Flowey is that specific flower. Flowey outright states he is Asriel, just as the narrator outright states they are Chara. As for the Entry 17? All we know is that we have a very interesting experiment, with photon readings NEGATIVE (anti-photons?), certain shadows, and that Gaster was speaking the entry to two people. (More than likely to Sans and.. no idea who the second one is. It could be Papyrus, it could be Alphys, it could be Asgore..)

Yes, Sans still activated the HUD. Remember, the HUD activates when someone uses a certain magical move on you. What if that move was to alter the space around Frisk, as to not let light in?

4.1)It would also prove that Undertale being a game is canon, since it'd explicitly mention the code of the game glitching. We have a Glitchtale scenario, and we once again have to ask:Since Sans knows about the code, why not just set your HP to 0 in the Genocide Route? And if the game really is a bunch of code, in-universe, that gives us the paradox of the annoying dog literally creating itself by barking at a computer. The explanation fails. And yes, the tree is still there-But that's in a world without someone who literally has magic and uses it to prank people.

4.2)He wanted to establish a connection between Frisk and Chara, and for us to even once think they are one and the same. When we play through the Genocide Route up to the end of the RUINS, Flowey recognizes us as Chara, and mentions how they're inseparable, after all these years.. But, didn't we just meet Flowey like, about an hour ago? They mention to have a plant to be more powerful than us and our stolen SOUL.. What stolen SOUL?! That alone is a hint that we're not Chara. But the fact that we NAMED Chara establishes a connection between the two. We're calling out to Chara. Even if we choose the wrong name, the game's universe will change, even retroactively, just to make our name correct. So we're being railroaded-No matter what we try and do, we will always be calling out to Chara and awakening them, even if that's not what we intended, or something we even wanted to actively PREVENT from happening!

4.3)So, we have some control on what we do. We're roleplaying them. And in Undertale, we control over what we do.. Undertale's a game of choice, after all. REAL choice, that have actual, visible, consequences.

4.4)...Oh, he was trying to give hope. But let's go with the hypothetical situation where Frisk actually SPARES Asgore. Given their determination, and how butterscotch pie lowers their attack, and how he doesn't truly wish to fight, it probably could theoretically be done. Undyne notices that Asgore let that human stick around?! Monsters question the validity of Asgore saying to kill humans who fall. A revolution happens, and Asgore is overthrown. And guess who the monsters look to for hope? Undyne.. Undyne becomes the empress this way. And then she kills the next human, and declares war. And loses. Exactly what Asgore wanted to prevent. (And he dies anyway here.)

4.5)Just because you can't see it doesn't mean you can't interact with it. Sans would have discovered the HUD by either Gaster, or carefully observing the subtle signs (Frisk apparently concentrating on a specific area of space, perhaps the very fact they wait a bit.. The fact that monsters have never once dodged a human attack..).. Then, he tells Asgore. Asgore, still not able to SEE the HUD, smashes the MERCY button, because he knows where the MERCY button should be, based on where Frisk was when the fight began.

4.6)Why did you think Undyne gave you a hint on how to dodge the attacks? And if that's the green SOUL mode, then how is it connected to kindness? Just standing there patiently better fits the light-blue trait.

4.7)That's only during battles on the HUD. Outside of battles, they moved quite similarly to Frisk! Remember, since the spell switches your SOUL color, it's probably switching the trait, which in turn alters the mode-It makes the most logical sense, since each mode represents its corresponding trait. So.. How far can you get in Undertale without moving in-battle? You can move in Papyrus' battle, as he turns your SOUL green, and probably never spotted a human, so green probably wouldn't face him. If you even get that far, that is. I don't even think it's possible to get past the Ruins this way.

4.8)Sans can't either, he was able to deduce it by looking at the subtle signs.. Or Gaster told him while he was still around. He'd read faces of the humans that came before, and find out there's something going on directly south of the box.. That's the starting point of the process to learning about the HUD,

4.9)Flowey does think you're Chara, yes. But there are signs that someone else is there too. Napstablook actually RESPONDS to the narrator when they said he had no sense of humour. Therefore, the narrator speaks out loud, in a way that can be heard. Flowey is talking about this narrator. Little did he know that was the REAL Chara... If the HUD wasn't canon, Sans wouldn't be abusing it. If Asgore didn't destroy MERCY, and Sans didn't abuse the HUD and the turn-based system, I would also just say they're not canon and are for us only. And I once did-Before I GOT to Asgore.

4.10)To trick us at first? We were lead to assume that we were Chara for almost the entire game, before it was revealed that we were actually Frisk. Undertale is a game known to take common game elements, and then actually make it canon, deconstructing these mechanics. We were meant to assume that we played in the present day, as Chara, and that Asgore was preparing that red coffin for us. Then, we learn that 201X was a long time ago as early on as the Ruins-The calendar's very old! (More hints that Frisk is not Chara) We visit the CORE, a futuristic place. So, we're playing in the far future? True Pacifist Ending-Nope, we're playing in the present. 201X didn't mean "201X" as most video games would call it-"X" has an actual meaning, and the calendar system used by monsters is different than ours. Plot twist!

4.11)Knowing about Saving and Loading is VERY interesting. It makes him like Flowey in this regard. Sans abuses your HUD, and nobody else (except for Asgore) EVER does this. Sans is even aware that the fight is turn-based! If it's not turnbased, then why can't we attack Sans when he's doing his "special attack"? Why CAN we attack him after we literally move the box and allow us to press FIGHT on our own turn? And if a rule can be broken, it's not a law of physics. Newtonian physics work very well until we start getting close to light-speed, and fails to account for light being slightly affected by gravity. But that was ALL it failed to explain. By that logic, we should return to Newtonian physics. Once again, you can't be knowledgeable about something if it doesn't even EXIST. You're suggesting the HUD doesn't exist according to canon. But if it doesn't exist in canon, Sans couldn't have abused it, because it doesn't exist.

Metaphors exist within what people say, but not in the literal laws of physics themselves. Besides, several factors, like Asgore not wanting to fight, attack going down because of the Butterscotch Pie, go on to suggest that Frisk COULD have been able to sucessfully spare Asgore had the button not been removed. It can't be a metaphor, because there's nothing for it to represent:Asgore IS sparable-Only way around it is if he literally takes away your method of doing so. And wait, that's exactly what we see happen in the game.

4.13)Not under normal curcumstances, since you'd be decapitating the SOUL inside of it as well. But when you start to separate it from the body, like what happens during a battle, it's different. The body becomes pretty much useless-All that culmination is in your SOUL, so THAT is what you need to hit.

4.14)Even better-That means there's even MORE circumstances for you to heal yourself-The SOUL's life energy will heal the body! But, if you damage the SOUL...

5)Frisk was outside of the game-They were on the Surface, like we are. We give them a backstory, one that hasn't been given to us. A reason to go to the mountain. When Asriel asks Frisk why they climbed the mountain, they never answered. And WE never answered either.

5.1)The magic was meant to negatively affect Frisk, by blocking out all their light. That could be enough to trigger a "battle." (Yes, I still say he activated the HUD and then "fleed".)

5.2)He doesn't "know" he's in a videogame because Undertale being a videogame is NOT a canon part of the story. Remember the annoying dog creating itself paradox? Undertale being a game isn't canon-Only the mechanics are-They're sort of like the laws of physics of that world.

6)They were a PACIFIST. They didn't kill ANYONE. Why kill Asgore and ruin their happy end?