Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180822001601

"It would be more useful if you were to direct the replies to outside threads to the creators of the said thread. I did not write that Tumblr post, nor have I read it. I simply found it indexed on a credible theorist's blog."

I don't know about you, but my rule is that if you present evidence, you're supposed to at least read it, so you know what you're actually arguing. If you're going to use a blog post as evidence to support your side, then read it so you have a chance at defending yourself. I suppose we can just erase the blog post from the pool of evidence, then. At least until you actually read the thing. Also, using it as evidence just because you found it on a "credible" theorist blog is argument from authority, a logical FALLACY by the way.

"We tried more than that. We tried everything, as a matter of fact. At least, I did. And I know for a fact I cannot be the only one. So again, we already did try everything. I suppose if all you do is spend time around this decaying forum, you are bound to miss a thing or two here and there. Mostly on Tumblr and Reddit."

Yes, not everybody uses meta as arguments, just the majority (that or the vocal minority). It's also true that not everybody disagrees on the matter.

"You can deduce his intentions by analyzing the game."

That's that "best method" I was talking about. Analyzing the game itself.

"And then taking a step back and asking yourself, "does this make sense?" It's not like we know absolutely nothing about Toby. After all, he sometimes shares things on his Twitter and Tumblr. You can get a good idea of what kind of person he is. If all his game's doing is preaching mercy and friendship, then that's a reasonable explanation, considering we see no indicators that he may have had a bigger plot in mind. At least, nothing of the proportions this fandom has been cooking up. Once again, the simplest explanation is oftentimes the correct one."

We DO see indicators. They're within the game itself, with all those hints that Toby put inside the game. And the game is the most reliable source we have. By the way, Tsskyx… "There are many Floweys out there. And not everything can be resolved by just being nice."-Asriel

...Maybe that's NOT what the game is preaching.

"You mean his own actions proved that?"

Exactly.

"He still loved his wife and children."

His children were DEAD, and while he did love his wife, there was no hope.

"He still had hope that the monsters could see sunlight one day."

No, he didn't. As Gerson pointed out, he knew that if they reached the surface, there would bound to be another war. As Asgore pointed out, he just wanted everyone to have hope. As TORIEL pointed out, he was giving everyone FALSE hope, and he didn't want another human to ever arrive.

"And he was torn between doing the right thing for the monsters, or the right thing for the humans, meaning he was more than compassionate - he had plenty for both of the races."

"Long ago, ASGORE and I agreed that escaping would be pointless... Since once we left, humans would just kill us. I felt a little betrayed when he eventually changed his mind.* But now, I think... Maybe he was right to. Cause after all, even though we never escaped... A human's killing us anyway, ain't that right?"-Gerson

*-This is when he declared war on the humans, which Toriel later exposed as fake.

You sure about that?

"Okay, let's just assume this isn't what Toby had in mind. Because he clearly had not. Why is it you cannot reach the happy ending if you kill these monsters that "encounter you?" Because Toby said 'no, this is YOUR fault, not theirs!'"

Who said Pacifist was a happy ending, or THE happy ending? Chances are, it's actually not:A second war is very likely to break out again, and Asriel is doomed to become Flowey once more.

"So respect that, please. These monsters are obviously not at fault for being there, doing their usual thing,"

Less than half the monsters want to kill you. I went over that before. And that's the worst case scenario. Chances are, it's less than 10%. As for that last 10%? Yes, it is their fault. Well, most of the time, at least.

"meaning the only reasonable explanation for their "aggression" is that they've simply been expressing themselves through magic there, and this magic may not have been necessarily "in tune" with your soul, hence why it hurt you."

Or, you know, the initial assumption is false?

"I mean, does it make sense for a whimsy Whimsun in the ruins, far from the reach of Asgore's orders, have a reason to kill you and steal your soul? It's not even aiming for it, and can be spared immediately."

Remember, I was saying that all the monsters that you can't spare right away want to fight. Of course Whimsum's innocent, for the exact reasons you just stated:It can be spared immediately, and doesn't even aim for you-And aiming for your SOUL was my first argument for why they want to kill you, was it not? Whimsum is a VERY clear exception. Toriel's line actually doesn't mean that ONLY monsters that want to fight makes you enter a fight. She said that if they want to fight, you'll be a fight, so A implies B. But that doesn't mean B implies A! It's Froggit's line that proves that the monsters who CAN'T be spared right away want to fight.

"Yes, why do monsters keep attacking you even if you can spare them?"

If you don't spare them, you've demonstrated that you DO want to fight. If you don't want to get attacked, stop fighting and spare them already!

"And this is also a good question, why do they not allow you to spare them right away?"

..Because they don't want to be spared. They want to fight. Simplest answer there is. It's proven by Froggit as well.

"Well, think about it, what is a spare?"

Sparing someone is saying that you don't want to fight them. That's what a different Froggit said. The same one that mentions that at some point you'll have to spare someone even when their name isn't yellow. (Toriel)

"I think the game conveyed it a bit ineptly. How can you put an end to a conflict between you and someone else? Four options: run away, make them run away, kill them, kill yourself. Translating to the HUD in the same order, we get this: flee, spare, fight, (do literally nothing). You can ignore the battle completely, by simply walking away."

Doesn't always work though. Also, that's simply escaping the battle.

"So it may as well be your own fault, for stading in the way of those attacks."

Many of them are aimed directly at you. And fact is, they don't let you spare them right away. So what if you can escape from them? Doesn't change the fact that they want to fight you and won't let you spare and take things peacefully!

"And notice I didn't say how you would make them run. Either by convincing them (act), or by forcing them (fight)."

It has nothing to do with making them run. It's convincing them to stop fighting. That's how it works with Toriel, how it works with Papyrus, how it works with, well.. Everyone.

"So really, they stay, because they have no reason to not step aside, at least not yet. And they ALWAYS attack, each turn, because they are trying to converse with you."

There's better ways then aiming bullets straight at their SOUL that do damage. Papyrus has proved that it's possible to tell how much HP your opponent has (that's how he manages to always leave you with 1HP), which means your HP must be visible. So the monsters would see that they're damaging you. Yet they keep it up. It's almost as if they WANT to see it reach 0. Oh wait..

"Even after they're ready to depart, you can still continue the battle, the conversation."

Even after they offer to do things peacefully, you can still refuse and keep the battle going. Only you can end the fight, and if they let you.

"This is all very simple. Not all encountered monsters want to kill you, some just get in your way, or rather, you get in their way, hence why they don't just step aside."

Not all of them do, there are clear exceptions like Whimsum and Moldsmal, but most of them do.

"Oh and sparing is like stepping aside and letting them leave, as opposed to throwing in another act or strike."

It's what Froggit said it was. Saying you don't want to fight. It uses up a turn because that's technically talking, which we already know is an action based on the Dummy fight.

"Hence why you need to press the button, to indicate that there's nothing else left for them in the battle. Anyways, after the battle begins, you can either leave, or convince them to leave, either forcefully, or resourcefully."

Or go genocide and kill it.

"They don't want to leave. That's all."

Froggit said fight, not leave. Fight means fight.

"They have no reason to. You haven't convinced them to, nor forced them to. It's not that they want to converse with you, but if they didn't want to, they probably wouldn't be getting in your way anyways. So let's just assume that yes, the monsters did attack you, because they had better things to do than to sit in their homes doing whatever. The monsters we encounter are the active ones, and NPCs are the passive ones (meaning, they're not actively getting in your way). That's how I would distinguish them."

Exactly how I distinguished them too, and reached the conclusion that less than half of the monsters actually want to kill you, by calculating the number of monster encounters, and going off of the lower bound of the total population based on the SOULs emanating around Asriel. (Though it's likely far higher than that, making the ratio of monsters wanting to kill you far lower.) Because NONE of those NPCs want to kill you, and many in fact help you. Yes, I make this distinction as well.

"Ignorant argument. We reset and execute the pacifist route and reach the TRUE ending of the game. Voila, Asgore lives."

Doesn't change the fact that he died before. Besides, it could easily be argued that "nobody has to die" has to do with the fact that we have more freedom, and it isn't like those railroady RPGs where fighting is literally the only option. I mean, the exact same trailer also contained the phrase "Slay them, spare them, decide their fate." It's just as easy to argue that Undertale is more of a game about choice than about sparing. We can even pile on Flowey's story, the reset being an integral part of the story and called out on to support this alternative explanation of Toby's intentions.

"Can the monsters be filled with these things, but perhaps lose them based on certain circumstances? You wouldn't want aliens to judge us all the same by the acts of ISIS, would you? The rule may not necessarily be wrong. It could also be that it's simply flexible. As in, all monsters are born with these traits, but can lose them in extreme circumstances, yet regain them quickly afterwards, as proven by Asgore himself right after we spare him, in the way that hope returned to him."

The book doesn't say that they're generally filled with these things. It flat-out says people say they're literally made of those things, then points out that humans proved they don't need these things to exist, citing that as a reason that the nature of SOUL as a whole is unknown. ..Well, book? Monsters have proven that for themselves too, you know. Stop making monsters look like perfect angels who do no wrong. They're just as fallible as humans are!

"That's just the translation of a "conversation involving magic", because the said magic isn't atuned to human souls, so from a human's point of view, it's indeed a "fight". The Froggits are just trying their very best to explain their complicated world to you :D"

Look, when you attack them, nothing changes. You'd expect them to retailiate and start actually attacking you now, wouldn't you? Not just communicating things even as they die? No surprise, no nothing. Almost as if they expected you to attack them. I'm with Chara on this one, Froggit attacked you:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5MzBvTEhMRkd3cW8

Since this Froggit acted exactly the same as the ones who "hopped close", then doesn't that imply their intentions were likely the same? Which means the others were attacking too?

"Context matters you dipshit, didn't Pewdiepie teach you that yet? :DDD"

Yes, context within the game. Not a bunch of fans making random guesses about what Toby meant, or trying to make their own story out of Undertale, then say that's what Toby meant or that it's canon (for the latter, looking at you, Camilia) What's next, are we going to say that Undertale's canonically connected to Earthbound? ..Wait, we did that already.

"And that in particular doesn't pardon your nonsense. Think of a better outcome, one that would involve Toby Fox being a normal hopeful human being. Also, I have no idea what a transposition is. Whatever you will say, I will understand better in a less cryptic language, perhaps English. Or do you mind explaning to me what the fuck this is? ¬"

It's formal logic. Transposition is simply the fact that if one thing makes another true, then if the second thing is false, so must the first thing. For example, if it rained, the ground got wet. So.. If the ground didn't get wet, then it didn't rain. "¬" is the negation symbol. ¬A means "the negation of A", or that A is untrue. So, to restate my Froggit proof.. From Froggit's words, if a monster does not want to fight, then it's time to use MERCY. So, if it ISN'T time to use MERCY, that means the monster wants to fight. And if you can't use mercy, then that obviously means it's not time to use MERCY-You're still at the FIGHT/ACT stage, making it so that "they might not want to fight you anymore." That hasn't happened yet. Which means they DO want to fight you. It's that simple.

"I guess, slower upload and download times. Upload for transferring the essence back through time to retain the memories of a reset timeline, download to preserve newly acquired memories from the brain."

I suppose that does make sense. Yet a reload still takes the same amount of time. That doesn't make sense..

"Like the vacuum of space, it likes to be "not empty." It likes a bit of disorder. Sleeping orders your memories and you wake up with a clear head, as you may know. It also tidies up your soul, while healing it simultaneously."

As in, actual healing. No backward time stuff. Hm, why can't we say the same thing about monster food?

"Suddenly, there's more free space, ergo more HP to fit in. But you cannot heal this additional HP, because you cannot tidy it again without sleep, and the moment some of it gets lost, the rest collapses to come closer to that stable "not empty" 20/20 equilibrium."

Right.

"The two fused, and died as one. Here's my depiction of this strange fusion: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/295390212446486528/467065262709932034/The_first_soul.png The power comes from the rotation of the outer layer around the inner layer. A magical dynamo, basically."

Yep. You could say that Chara's determination wouldn't be enough to save the BOTH of them. It would work for Chara, but monster bodies can't hold that much determination. But, Chara and Asriel are fused into one, which means in order for them to stay alive, they HAVE to do it with Asriel. At the same time, that's impossible. ...Catch-22, Chara. Game over. *double (or is it single?) soul shatter*

Let's see, combining raw SOUL power with the intense magical capabilities of a monster, gives you.. So, roughly human-level strength physically, barring magic, okay, now let's look at the monster side.. we have our magical level, the matter and power to support that.. Factor in the human power, and.-

Woah. It just multiplied by the hundreds.

(SOUL power is the base factor of how powerful your SOUL is. Monsters are attuned to magic, but their magic isn't typically that powerful, because they don't have much power to use their magic with. Humans aren't attuned to magic, but their Barrier is something that the monsters can't just solve with spells. Magic strength is based on SOUL power. It would take nearly all of the monsters to match one SOUL. There's at least hundreds of monsters, so give a monster a full human SOUL, and..)

..Well, that's off the charts. He's too OP. Devs, nerf this guy.

*Patch note 54.21:Allows humans to take control too when this happens. Hopefully this counterbalances things up, taking away most reasons to absorb a SOUL.

...I said nerf it, not make the human being absorbed equally OP.

"Of course you run out eventually."

No, you don't. Try it! Fire your bullets! Next time you fight Mettaton after the color puzzle, aim at the very left of the board to miss him, and keep on firing:This will allow you to do it forever. No matter how long you do it, you will never run out.

"But the point is, those bullets are coming out of your soul, whereas with the green, it may simply be a spell that's natural to the green mode, just like the inability to run away is."

Why can't the yellow part also simply be a spell that lets you control shooting bullets, centered around your SOUL? The green's shield is technically centered around your SOUL too, forming a circle, though you can only choose a 90 degree angle to be protected at a time.

"That's the same thing. Transforming DT into magic and then shooting it out. I'm just explaining where the mode managed to get its supply of bullets from. Alphys didn't cast the spell, it was the cellphone. And we know that a soul cannot be constructed artificially."

Of course a SOUL can't be constructed artificially. It wasn't. It was ALTERED artificially. Two different things. And the latter is possible-That's how your SOUL can change colors from monster attacks in the first place.

"That's what I said, that KR is the poison. But it's just that, nothing more. The bypass is Sans compensating for his low attack. Hence why I formed an explanation for the bypass that doesn't involve KR."

Technically, you have TWO HP bars in Sans' fight. Your regular HP bar, which takes 1 damage every frame.. But that "damage" is converted into KR points, minus the part that you actually DO lose instantly, which goes by invinicibility frames per usual. You DON'T initially lose all that HP, it just gets affected by KR at that rate. However, once that happens, it slowly seeps away until they're at the same value. Strangely enough, the KR bar stops doing this at 1HP-The only way to lose that last HP is after the natural invincibililty frames end, or to get KR also down to 1 first-The HP just sends damage over to the KR bar instead, speeding the decaying process up. HP converted into KR still counts as HP when used for items-You'll only be healed up to the point when you have 92/92KR, not full-on 92HP, which is further proof that this HP is not lost right away, merely affected by KR. They're still there, hence why they're not replaced by these items.

"It's rather a repulsion force. It works on all attacks, regardless of their internal frequency (the amount of HP they would remove upon contact). Whether this repulsive field was cast by a 1 HP or 4 HP makes no difference. The only difference is, that 4 HP burns through itself faster, so the repulsifield doesn't end up lasting 4 times as longer."

Though there's no real reason for that, yet it to break at 1HP. Why would they be evolved that way? But that doesn't make your whole theory wrong, just that section-I have my own explanation:Only a certain amount of energy can actually be held at once to be used for that purpose, and that amount happens to be the 1HP amount.

"Determination is what keeps his essence running, and his body makes him able to move. He has no need for HP."

You said HP is the connection between the body and essence, though. So.. Flowey shouldn't be able to control his body without HP. And if he really doesn't need HP, why is he "defeated" when you depelete all of his HP as Omega Flowey? (Didn't call him having HP there in the first place as a paradox, because he would have gained it from the human SOULs.. Actually.. I've changed my mind, though. That IS a paradox, because his HP is far more than 594, what he should have in the best/worst case scenario, where all six humans were at max LV20. How'd he get more HP than that? ..Maybe it's a mystery though, and if we can solve that mystery, perhaps we can explain how he's LV9999.)

"Also, monster HP, that's something entirely different. They have no physical bodies, so for them, their HP literally comes from the state of their soul. Hence why losing it actually physically impacts them and why they can have such large values - since their souls are complicated, needing to cast all their arms, legs, eyes, mouths, and whatever is inside and everything. Lots of points and detail needed for that."

We actually don't see any physical reprecussions for losing HP, until they're dead. Spare them at 1HP, and they look just as fine as they were before, just like we do! So, if they were affected, it's invisible.. Which means maybe the idea of us being affected too isn't so far-fetched after all. But yes, you need a LOT of points to make all these body parts. You know, that's probably a THIRD reason why a monster with a human SOUL would be OP. Their SOUL power would multiple by hundreds, but their HP would also at worst double, and at best, get multiplied by the HUNDREDS again (Like Asgore, who has 3500HP)

"I tried to get an analogy going. Besides, I've already said it, killing unlocks your full potential."

Yeah, let's go with that. Innocence really DOES limit you in battle..