Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-28175157-20160624105722/@comment-24821641-20161118141551

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but it's semi-"revived", so...

"Let's begin with the fact that Chara was a murderer since the very beggining. Who wanted to kill innocent humans? Chara. And while Asriel does tell us that they hated humanity, it's still no excuse. This little thing still wanted to kill people who did nothing wrong. The motive? I have no idea, but it's not a good motive, that I'm sure of. Either for fun, out of hatred, any of those." This is true, they planned to kill humans. They ALSO, according to Asriel in the Lab tapes, did it because they wanted to free monsterkind, and were willing to give up their own life to do it. It's still a bad thing, but if you think Asgore's good even though he did the exact same thing you should think the same about Chara. Also I have no clue where you're getting the idea every one of those humans were innocent...it's VERY heavily implied Chara climbed the mountain to kill themself. "I know why Chara climbed the mountain. ...It wasn't for a very happy reason." "Chara, you might not believe this...But I decided...It wasn't worth living anymore. So...I decided to follow in your footsteps. I would erase myself from existence." The fact they hated humanity is brought up right after Asriel says why they climbed the mountain, they're directly connected. At least a few of the humans obviously did something to badly hurt them.

"''Chara laughed at the fact that Asgore, who acted as a loving father and only wished good for them, got sick because of them. According to what Asriel tells us, Chara was pretty insensitive and cold. Even before we "misguided" them." ''The exact words used are "laughed it off." One, and in my experience the most common, definition of that phrase is "to reduce the apparent importance of something so that it doesn't affect you as much - usually by joking about the situation". Where do we see this in Undertale? Snowdrake's father. The narration for laughing at Snowdrake's Mother. Sans. (Just, Sans. His entire life). Toriel, Chara's mother, if you kill her after meeting spare conditions. Migospel ("laughter hides the pain".) Probably some other places I don't recall atm. And Asriel, no matter how much he looked up to Chara, would not think genuinely finding a horrible sickness amusing was the right thing, ever.

"And then there goes Frisk. If the "Chara is the narrator" theory is true (which I highly believe is), then the Genocide narrator dialogue gives us enough proof to prove that Chara is as cold and insensitive as Asriel told us they were. The ACT options for the characters during a Genocide are all cold. Toriel's says "not worth talking to", that despite the fact she took care of us and acted as a mother to Chara in the past. Papyrus' says "forgettable", despite being an absolute cutie who offered a freaking hug despite the fact you're already a murderer. And so on."............This is only on Genocide. Where they have incredibly high LOVE. In all the narration in the Pacifist and even Neutral routes they are the opposite, they suggest ways to spare monsters, they say Toriel "knows best for you", they are overall cheerful. Mentioning Narrator Chara only works against you, you're only taking one route into account, and even on THAT route there are rare moments of them acting like they don't want to kill, like still calling Undyne a heroine.

"Chara still takes control of you from here to there. They make you skip Papyrus' puzzles because they believe he's a bother and have no time for his tricks; they don't let you decide. And that smiley face when you encounter a monster. You, Chara, or both, are happy because you're going to kill more." First, if you think that's Chara (which I do also) you also have to accept it's most likely them moving in Pacifist cutscenes, and if not logic says it's Frisk moving in the same kind of cutscenes in Genocide. Second for "they don't let you decide"...They don't let you choose whether to move THERE, but in battles there is always an option to spare, even as far in as Sans' fight. They don't force you to attack, they let Frisk make their own choices, and if you do abort Genocide and stop killing they don't possess you and make you do it again. For the smiley face when you fight a monster, again, this is just on Genocide. If they were excited to kill monsters before this the smiley face would have been there from the start of the game, but instead it only shows up when they have high enough LOVE. Plus, it's above FRISK'S head.

"Let's not forget that Asriel and Chara were good friends. According to the tapes, they were very close to each other, even though who knows if Chara was just faking that. But still, the mere fact that Asriel stopped Chara for murdering people is, apparently, enough excuse for them to murder their one and only friend savagely. Innocent? Of course. Chara is manipulative. They only wanted to see the flowers from above, they said, but when they got there, they used Asriel to kill people. Flowey also kept helping you all over the Underground, perhaps as some kind of repay, but Chara only took advantage of that without caring." First, I find it very hard to believe a ten-or-so-year-old would be able to manipulate Asriel (and y'know the rest of the monster race) into liking them as much as Asriel does, but whatever let's go with it. Ignoring that this example is again only on Genocide, when they have literally the highest possible level of emotion detachment, they still hesitate before killing him. All the dialogue after killing Sans (ie after Chara completely takes over) advances on its own, except when Asriel/Flowey asks you not to kill him. You have to click to advance text like you normally do, Frisk has to basically say "What are you DOING? kill him NOW" before they will. And the reason it's so violent compared to other deaths is because Flowey isn't a monster. You only do so much damage at high LOVE because monsters are damaged by intent to hurt, not actual strength, which doesn't affect plants. "They only wanted to see the flowers from above, they said, but when they got there, they used Asriel to kill people." Right, except...they planned with Asriel to do that. He agreed to it. Saying they wanted to see the flowers was an excuse for him to cross the barrier because they didn't want Toriel and Asgore to know. Asriel didn't think he was just nicely laying Chara's body to rest only for them to suddenly become murderous and him to desperately have to stop them, he knew what was happening and got scared at the last moment. Which was the right thing to do, but they didn't manipulate him into it.

"And I doubt you ever misguided this oh so innocent child. Chara supposedly follows you since the beggining, as the flower patch you fall on is where their body was buried. If you do a True Pacifist after a Genocide, then that should get Chara at least confused. First you kill monsters for fun, then you help them all you can and get them to become your best friends. No. At the end, Chara is still Chara. They're still Mr./Mrs. Psychopath." A good example for how you DO corrupt them is Alphys's dog food. If you're Pacifist, Chara describes it as half-full. They're optimisic. If you kill a monster, even one that doesn't even raise your LV, they say it's half-empty. Pessimistic. And if you kill twenty monsters and some of the dogs (not sure if it need to be all or just one) they say "you just remembered something funny." They only find it funny after the kills corrupt them. And actually they do get confused. If you wait around after destroying the world and make it clear you want to go back they do get angry and go on a rant about how it was you who killed everything, wasn't there a point to it, did you think it was just a game? They're quite annoyed. Anyway, a Genocide reset functions as a True Reset, i.e no one remembers anything... including Frisk and Chara, judging by how neither have any responses they have after normal resets (Frisk doesn't shake Sans' hand early, Toriel's check narration doesn't mention you saw her die.) Another, unrelated thing, you know how Asriel says after True Pacifist he doesn't know why he ever thought Frisk was Chara? He still says that if you did an aborted Genocide before, which, since you didn't go all the way, he remembers. Oh, and "And you know what the best part of all this is? You'll DO it. And then you'll lose to me again. And again. And again!!! Because you want a 'happy ending.' Because you 'love your friends.' Because you 'never give up.'. Az says this while he still thinks he's talking to Chara

So, Chara wasn't evil or especially good. They just did some stuff wrong, like every other character in the game.