Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20171110001850

"Ok, so. Before I start, just lemme remind you, that a perfect Undertale theory might not be possible yet. Just as we're unable to construct a theory of everything irl due to a lack of information about our universe, we may not have enough knowledge to solve all the questions in Undertale."

Correct:I'm not saying we know everything- There are some mysteries like Gaster that we can't figure out for sure. What I am saying is that we should use the scientific method and not ignore any evidence-Like we do irl.

"So your approach may still be wrong. We're trying to make sense out of things, but not by destryoing everything we've built so far if we can't solve something."

True, but if there's an actual paradox or contradiction, we DO have to destroy the things we've assumed so far. If it's just a case of "How long was the 6th child underground" or "What did Gaster fall into", then we can leave them, as they're merely mysteries. But if it's a clear contradiction, like if a theory requires that only 5 humans fell, or that the Phase distrorter can transport organic material like bones for Sans to be Ness, we MUST destroy said assumption, despite the evidence (Like the similarities between Undertale and Earthbound, the Halloween Hack, ect). We must analyze it scientifically, like we do with our own world-Just using Undertale's laws of physics instead of ours-We have to derive their laws like we derived ours.

"Undertale is filled with many references, which are better off not discussed, since canonically, they make no sense. If you dismiss their canonical meaning in order to get rid of whatever paradoxes it creates, you're already constructing a headcanon."

But how do we know that the reference is the canonical meaning? Saying it is a mere headcanon, it's a baseless assumption with no real evidence-It's about as good as alchemy, which assumed meanings out of plenty of things that had no meaning.

"So paradoxes CAN be canon. You simply have to look the other way and stop caring about them."

Give me a paradox in the real world's laws of physics. Go on... A paradox means we did something wrong. That's one of the basic rules of science and logic.

"Now, since Chara's name is on the stat menu, are you implying it is Chara who is in control, not Frisk? I'm pretty sure that since WE control Frisk, and WE control the resets, then Frisk controls the resets. That's what you claimed yourself after all, that Frisk is the player. Or the other way around. Can't remember."

It was the other way around, that the player is Frisk. And Chara has some control too-We can't RESET to bring back the world, only Chara can-Therefore, Chara CAN take that ability away from us. We're given Chara's flashback when we get a Game Over, and that's what gets us to stay determined. Chara most definitely plays a role in the way we can SAVE and LOAD-Since when were WE (fully) the ones in control?

"And I hope you're realizing that all of this has nothing to do with the genocide timeline."

It isn't specific to the Genocide timeline, but it applies to the Genocide timeline all the same. In order for it to be plausible and worthy of consideration, it must work for both Neutral, Pacifist AND Genocide.

"And lemme repeat myself. The Annoying Dog does represent Toby. Not because of some proof we found in the game, but because of Toby's numerous hints at this. The stuff in the game merely supports this. So I've decided to say that it doesn't have a valid in-game explanation, if it wasn't intended to have it. So it's better if we not discuss it. Anything you propose to explain it better will be nothing but a headcanon of yours."

Let me repeat myself:All that evidence was non-canon, and therefore useless and irrelevant. That's like using evidence from FNAF to prove the six human SOULS were supposed to be phantoms, or using evidence from MLP to come up with all kinds of weird stuff. The box in the dog room is a perfect match to the box in MTT's Live Report:There's a pretty good chance they're both the same game-Mettaton just turned his copy into a bomb.

"I said it a long time ago, Chara doesn't destroy the world. The game doesn't erase its own files, it merely raises a completed genocide flag."

We don't see the files within the game itself-It's not a part of the gameplay. Therefore, this means nothing. After all, main_chara isn't Chara, but Frisk.

"This could be interpreted as Chara locking us out of the world. I do not believe that a mere ghost of someone, possessing Frisk's soul, is capable of doing this, while Frisk is for some reason not."

HP. ATK. DEF. EXP. LOVE. GOLD. When a number increases, that feeling... That's Chara. They're the manifestation of a number increases-Hence their OPness. And who said Frisk CAN'T do that? We never TRIED to do it in the game, we just let Chara kill Asgore, Flowey, and let Chara destroy the world. We deal insane damage too, like to Mettaton EX, so we also have this extraordinarg power. We really don't know whether or not Frisk could also destroy the world. Also, the phrase you quoted IS indeed a ridiculous claim-That Chara has a perfect memory of the world and just recreated everything out of thin air, but that's the alternative to Chara just RESETing to before the genocide happened-The world's still there, but only on the SAVE file and RESET point. The latter's my real theory, since the former is completely ludicrous.

"And whatever that 999999999 may mean, I say it's the carried-out damage, not the dealt damage. These values start appearing long before that, striking many other enemies down, despite them having much lower health stats. So when Chara did that, aiming at the screen, who knows what really was the target, and how much HP was actually deducted."

The two are identical, unless the target has less HP than the carried-out damage, in which case the target dies (or reloads their SAVE if they can). Though even the latter case, we still did deal that number of damage, it's just the extra damage was useless, because negative HP has the same effect as 0HP-You die.

"I dare you, construct a theory that would explain this, without making it look like a computer code."

It LOOKS like a computer code because they're physical laws, and created by a designer. Our very own laws also look like a computer code-They're just math! Objects with a certain amount of energy ALWAYS distort space-time the exact same way-Just like a simulated universe. Quantum mechanics may seem like a break from it-Finally, something random and not completely deterministic like a computer simulation! But, it actually takes it a step further with position not being determined until someone observes it, just like properties are loaded ONLY when needed to conserve CPU usage-An RNG algorithm likely being used to determine what. Similar similarties to computer code can exist in Undertale as well. Because of how computer code and laws work, each law of physics will look like computer code.

"You can keep saying that it's physical laws, not game mechanics, but this doesn't change the principle. You have to change it manually, as I dared you."

Who said it being code was ever the principal? You already debunked the idea of it being code, because if it was, it either means the whole cast including Sans is stupid, or part of the system is just forbidding those kinds of thoughts.. Evidence points towards physical laws, so that's what we should be looking at. Sans believes that the world isn't code, not because he's stupid or manipulated, but because the world isn't code.

"Besides, if Chara could be heard, Toriel would have noticed, Asgore would have, Sans would have. No response."

Why do you think Asgore got emotional when we arrived? Why do we, specifically, remind him of Chara? My theory is the reason why is because Chara WAS there, with us, and Asgore heard Chara. If he heard the same voice from Chara, that would remind him of Chara, wouldn't it? He doesn't believe we ARE Chara, because he knows Chara is DEAD, and while others can HEAR the narrator, that doesn't mean they can SEE the narrator-They can't: Neither can we (Frisk). As for how Flowey's special... What about the fact that:

A-He's literally Chara's best friend

B-He too was "player" at one point-So if anybody else can hear the narrator that appears in the HUD, it would be Flowey. Flowey can very well see the HUD, just like we can when he's in control as Omega Flowey-That's how he knows about the "LV" in the bottom-left. We already have two counts of the narrator being heard, so...

"But Toby didn't make Earthbound. He takes 0 credit for it. So why should the game refer to it? Because the dog is not Toby? If the dog isn't Toby, then why are we talking about Earthbound in the first place? But if he is... then it can't be Earthbound."

I don't mean JUST Earthbound. I mean the result of patching the Halloween Hack ONTO Earthbound. THAT full game.

"And yeah, as I said already, I'm not basing my claim that the Annoying Dog represents Toby on what is in the game. I'm using multiple sources to verify that this is true. And you can claim that the room does exist, since it doesn't represent anything, but in reality, it represents Toby's work, and the dog represents Toby."

You used multiple non-canon sources to verify that it's true... In a non-canon AU. We're talking about the world of Undertale here, not whatever AU the kickstarters and tweets take place in. That's like taking stuff from Underfell, Underswap, or Storyshift as canon.

"It's a tradeoff, preserve canon info and destroy the spirit of the game, or destroy the canon info and preserve the spirit."

We make up the sprit of the game, by analyzing canon info. So we should destroy our preconieved notions of the spirit of the game in favor of preserving canon info, and then try again on what the spirit of the game is.

"So to finish this, either, the HUD isn't a part of the inside universe, and all comments about it (eg. the Froggits, Sans) are meant for the player's eyes/ears only, OR, everything said about it is absolutely true, proving that the characters are either dumb, or manipulated, or aren't "real" (eg. created by code instead of being truly alive, implying that everything is just a simulated reality, kinda like in OneShot)."

Everything said about it is absolutely true, but they're physical laws, not code-It was never stated they were code. Therefore, they are neither dumb, manipulated, or "fake".

"I mean, pick. Destroy the meaning of the game in order to preserve all canon info, or destroy the info in order to make the game meaningful."

We make up the meaning, so I choose the former, because said meaning is simply something we've created-We have no true way of telling Toby's intentions, so we should destroy our preconceived notions of the meaning of the game in favor for more explicit, objective things like canon info.

"That's like saying you've created a gluten-free gluten or something."

It's more akin to saying I've created FAKE gluten, something that looks like gluten but isn't.

"Face it, there is simply no way of saying that the HUD makes sense. Since it's so obvious that it all looks like a game interface. Saying that it's all code based is actually SIMPLER. And if it isn't, and the characters ARE perceiving it differently, then why not just accept what I said, that they perceive it as if there was no HUD for them at all?"

Alright, it's time for me to lay out my theories on the HUD again.

The HUD is invisible to anyone who was never the "player" (I don't have a better word for whoever's in control of the RESETs.) Toriel can't see it, Asgore can't see it.. But the EFFECTS of the HUD can be seen. Sans (and possibly Gaster) spotted some anomalies, and discovered the HUD, similar to how we discovered distortions in space-time through relativity. Sans can't "see" the HUD, he only knows where it "should" be. Therefore, the fact that they appear to glow like buttons, display text, and so on, are completely invisible to said monsters. The similarities to a video game therefore aren't that obvious, and knowing how smart Gaster and Sans are, they were likely able to prove their world was not just a video game. (Canonically speaking, that is.) Either that, or the world being a game never crossed their minds, because all they saw were anomalies, not an actual HUD-interface. Asgore did not SEE the Mercy button, he just knew where it "should" be, and that if whatever that rectangle-shaped object is were to be destroyed, Frisk would be unable to run away or spare, and he likely learned it from Sans.

Frisk isn't "just a tool" just because we roleplay them, because said interaction between the player and Frisk isn't canon-Canonically, the player IS just Frisk, our actions ARE Frisk's actions. And once again, it seems normal at first glance, but the effects of the HUD can be detected, and derived to its source-That's what Sans, or maybe Gaster did. Also, Flowey can see it too, the HUD is visible to anyone who has ever been the "player" before (If you can come up with a better word for the one with the most determination, I'll use that one.) Also, other humans can see their own HUDs, just not the HUD for SAVing and LOADing-Like how we were unable to see Chara's HUD when they attacked. Frisk isn't special because they're Frisk, they're special because they have the most determination. Flowey had all of Frisk's special powers at one point.

Second biggest spoiler? Let me guess, the BIGGEST one is Chara themselves. I hope we both agree on that one. And no, he didn't confuse us to make us think we're not Frisk-There's a different message that he has for us... Chara delivers it to us more straightly.. Since WHEN we WERE the one in control? (If you see similarities between this and my 5th paragraph, well that's because I'm talking about the exact same thing here.)

"And I'm not sure why you're so keen on the idea that the game in the black box is the Earthbound hack. If we decide to exclude the room from the in-game universe, then we can say that it's Undertale no problem."

I'm not, I stated earlier that this is an alternative theory in the case that the dog is indeed Toby, and that the sentence meant exactly how you interpreted it-That Toby made what could BECOME a full game, and that the narrator's suprisement meant it must be Toby's first. And it's a part of the game that we play, therefore, excluding it is cherrypicking evidence, completely unscientific. I already stated my real theory, this is a normal dog making a normal (probably terrible) game by themselves, which might just be the game on MTT News.