Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20181123023529/@comment-32182236-20181217171218

Ferret, you're missing poential counterarguments. Again. Good thing we have each other to check and balance natural biases..

First off, where's the proof that Asgore was the original King? Yes, he was King when Chara was born, and given that Chara was the first out of 8 humans in the time between the War (Middle Ages) and the Freedom of Monsters (current present), which by comparing technology levels of the Surface in the intro and the ending, is several centuries long, this places Chara's fall at only around 110-170 years (by your theory 3rd out of 10, making it instead arounnd 260-350 years) so even this first step is actually weaker now!), and Asgore was King when Chara was first born, meaning he was likely still king during the war, given that monsters naturally have long lifespans, living a little over 1000 years (As Gerson demonstrates by living through the War), with the Dreemurr's immortality making it far longer, but what about before the War? Why couldn't the predeccessor to Asgore, or the predeccessor to Gaster be the one who the statue hinors?

Second, I ask for the second time, how do we know Sans didn't "eat" Gaster, in the way that your original theory originally suggested Rose ate Pink? Sans could have absorbed Gaster's human SOUL to gain all that power too, you know, and it simulataneously explains his magic. (Of course, I don't believe Gaster's a human at all, but for the sake of argument, let's say you got Gaster right. I'll discuss Gaster again later on in this post, but for a little hint, I'll just say I believe you got lost in timeline shenanigans. If Sans were real, I'd probably have him shortcut over to you and teach you how timelines actually work. But, he's not real, so I'll have to try do that myself when we get there.)

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Next, what's the evidence that the two people aren't Sans and Alphys? There's no evidence that Papyrus is a scientist, and plenty of evidence that Alphys is one.

Fourthly, how do we know it was after the meeting, and not just after Gaster's erasure feom the timeline? Really, I've explained this line very well in the same way for around the past year.

P1:Sans and Papyrus came from Gaster (They were all skeletons, and throughout the same, all monsters of the same spacies are related.) P2:Gaster was erased from the timeline, forgotten. P3:That means the origin of Sans and Papyrus was also erased from the timeline, and forgotten, since they're one and the same P4:So, in this new timeline, Sans and Papyrus really did come from nowehere. Their origin has been retconned out of the timeline.

This is also how Sans can remember Gaster when nobody else can. They exist as remnants OF Gaster. Coming from the original timeline, where Gaster existed. However, the "don't forget" note seems to imply Sans has to consiously make an effort to remember it, meaning those memories attenpting to get retconned out too. He has to fight against that.

(It's easy to recton events out of one's memories, they just forget something happened, and are fed "false" memories, and altered to fit how things would have gone had Gaster not existed. However, the answer of how Sans and Papyrus would be like had Gaster not existed is undefined-Their very existence DEPENDS upon Gaster!)

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Next, how do we know Papyrus IS a real monster? And I don't mean by mine and the majority of the teorists' community standards, I'm pretty certain Papyrus IS real, In the same way Sans is. I mean by the standards by which you classified Sans as a human. What evidence points to Papyrus not being a third human, that doesn't also say the same thing about Sans and/or Gaster?

And before you say it's that Sans can actually eat and Papyrus only drinks milk, remember Grillby's? Yeah, that's a thing. Monsters do eat. (One even explains the difference between the two kinds of foods.. Before promptly saying they want to try human food.)

In fact, everybody seems suprised as to how Papyrus can just never sleep. If anything, he's the fake, amd Sans is the real one!

...But his raw stats fit monster levels, not human levels, and he specializes in magic, not physical attacks.

If I was looking for SP, I'd probably have called him a Starman for these reasons. (Ironically siding with MatPat as well.) And Papyrus not sleeping is an anomaly indeed, but we should probably search for other explanations before calling him an alien from the world of a copyrighted series.

Oh, and that username? You do know it's common practice to just add some random numbers to your username, right? Besides, why can't this be part of the charade? If we're willing to go full-on conspiracy theory with Sans and say he's putting on a charade, why not do the same thing with Papyrus?

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No, it's not that reaching the surface "isn't enough". It's that reaching the surface is completely unrelated to "going back" at all. Getting to the surface doesn't make him one step closer to "going back". Yes, he came from another "world" (technically another timeline under my take, but in this current context, they're both sufficient), but he was underground there TOO. The current world's Surface is irrelevant. It's a nice way to go free for a while, though.. Untill he just ends back underground having forgotten everything anyways, that is.

Now, back to what Gaster fell into. I ask again, what's to say that it wasn't the Core itself that Gaster fell into, and that Alphys meeting a similar fate wouldn't just be Alphys continuing Gaster's research, using his blueprints (It's easy to deduce he must have existed though such remants), end up building a duplicate of the Silver Key machine, try to use it again, and fail the same way Gaster did? She does seem to be very interested in alternate worlds and timelines, after all...

If I was REALLY itching for SP, I'd say that from this, it can be said that whoever becomes the Royal Scientist would inevitably become corrupted with these desires, and are destined to all meet the same fate.. But I'm not going to do that. We already have a story like that anyways elsewhere.

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About the Entry 17, I have a very simple solution to this.

You know, Gaster came BEFORE Alphys. His entries are on a completely different list than Alphys. Gaster did 17 entries of his own, and after Alphys replaced him, she started her own set of entries, STARTING WITH ONE. This is Alphys'  Entry 1, not the first entry made by anyone ever. That's kind of how journal entries WORK. You start with 1, not wherever the previous person left off.

Now, for evidence that this is indeed what happened.

After Gaster fell, it took a long time before a replacement came. When Alphys built Mettaton to impress Asgore, she got the job.

Now, the fact that it took a long time is actually irrelevant:What matters is that Alphys took the job AFTER the fall of Gaster, and that the proccess of finding a replacmeent took any time at all. So Entry 11 must be after she become a Royal Scientist. That's before 17, isn't it? And they weren't BOTH Royal Scientists, because Asgore needed a REPLACEMENT for Gaster. Whether the Gaster Retcon was a recton or not, Alphys would have already been a Royal Scientist, just without Gaster. No need for a replacement.

The fact is Alphys's Entry 11 was written after Gaster's Entry 17. Which means they can't both be using the same set. Alphys begins a new chain after the end of Gaster's chain. That's how it works.

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Next, once again, why can't the voice just be Asriel? Chara's name is spoken, not Frisk's, so Asriel makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Please, point out a problem, and explain why Gaster would use Chara's name instead of Frisk's.

Oh, and by the way, look at Chara's narration. When they realize the voice, the one you didn't hear before, the narration widens, filled with spaces between each letter. It's clear there's some emotional reaponse. But this response doesn't occur when Alphys calls you ordering a pizza, even if it's your first playthrough in the current True Reset (or the first one period, for that matter), meaning Chara and Frisk wouldn't recognize Alphys, never having seen her before.

So, why does the Elevator voice garnet such an emotional reaction, yet not Alphys? If it's Asriel, this makes perfect sense, Chara recognizes Asriel very well, having a deep emotional bond with him, after all. (Though I theorize it broke after Asriel went against the plan, and that's a big part of why they end up turning evil, they grew to hate him, and with him, monsters in general) The suprise at Asriel coming BACK would elicit such a reaponse. But Gaster? I don't see it.

Now for the timeline shenanigans that you got lost in.

So, you claim that Gaster's Darkest Experiment happened after Frisk's fall in Tineline Alpha, right? After all, that explains why Alpha Frisk didn't find themselves in a desolate wasteland, right. But then, tell me, where's the evidence Gaster did any DT research in Timeline Beta at all? What's to say when Sans killed him a second time, he didn't do so before Gaster even had the chance to do any research at all? Meaning that Gaster's reaearch, the one time it did happen, DID make use of the SOULs that were avaiable? That completely removes the problem, and we no longer have to say Gaster's a human to fix said problem. All the evidence that we know supporting Gaster doing the research comes from Timeline Alpha, not Timeline Beta. (And definitely not the current timeline, Timeline Gamma!)