Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-29855659-20170630205901/@comment-29855659-20170709193338

Fastrthnwind wrote:

Rafip wrote: The use of this ability is exclusive to the character with the highest determination. - Wiki about Save. However there are no records about anyone on Surface, who could Save. Flowey in Underground was the first, Frisk second.

''Because they are made of magic, monsters’ bodies are attuned to their SOUL. If a monster doesn’t want to fight, its defenses will weaken. And the crueller the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us. Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill... Um, let’s end the chapter here...'' - Orange book ''The humans, afraid of our power, declared war on us. They attacked suddenly, and without mercy. In the end, it could hardly be called a war. United, the humans were too powerful, and us monsters, too weak. Not a single SOUL was taken, and countless monsters were turned to dust...'' - Ancient Glyphs They just slaughtered them all without even thinking about using Save File. Most likely humans at that time did not know that such thing exists. We don't know if there are any records on the Surface because we never interact with the Surface. Monsters wouldn't know because of the nature of the ability is exclusive to those with extremely high amounts of Determination (humans of course). Monsters, who possess extremely little amounts of determination in comparison, simply would not remember anything that happened in previous Loads/Resets except for the fact that humans just massacred them so easily with not a single casualty on their side.

The fact is, monsters can kill a human, because you are more than capable of dying to a monster's magic attacks, but any human can potentially kill a monster with greater ease depending on how much killing intent they possess (a.k.a. how much LV they have) and the emotional state of monsters (monsters are naturally peaceful people and do not wish to fight most of the time). You can even have a hard time fighting a very powerful monster that does want to fight back and is therefore less affected by killing intent (Undyne the Undying/Asgore/Toriel), but so long as you have the determination, you can always Load/Reset and keep fighting them by learning their patterns-which will always be the same-until you win; the monster would never know you went through Loads/Resets to defeat them because their determination is too low for them to remember. The only exception to this is Undyne the Undying, Sans, Toriel, and Asgore who are all aware to a very small degree but not as much as Flowey. They simply experience heavy deja vu.

Bxcnch wrote:

Fastrthnwind wrote: Way back during the War, Humans could use magic and they also had a way to combine their power (such as when making the Barrier) so it is relatively unknown how their power worked at the time. Its highly probable that only one human (the one with the highest determination of all of them) COULD reset, BUT because all the humans had similar levels of determination, they would remember it as well and use that against the monsters so that there were no casualties.

Flowey remembers your resets because he had enough determination at one point to reset himself. Even the previous humans that fell in the Underground had a limited ability to save/load/reset as mentioned by Toriel when she says that feels like she's met you already (after meeting her again from a load/reset) and felt the same way with the other humans as well. I admit, I didn't think of that. This would indeed explain the war of monsters and humans. But what confuses me is the fact that the human children could reset. According to Flowey they'd have to be stronger than him. Yet Flowey is completely surprised that you can save ("Chara! Your Determination! Somehow it's even greater than mine!"). If the humans could actually reset and load and save, then Flowey would have lost his powers as long as they were in the underground. Also they must be horrible if they got killed by Asgore, although they could just load. I admit, the fight is probably somewhere in the top 5 of difficult undertale fights, but it is not impossible. And the places where the items are imply that most of them died even earlier. If they could save, then why are they dead?

Also: What is the connection between DT and "respawn"? Frisk seems to be able to respawn during the Asriel fight, something the player him/herself never was capable of. It looks like Frisk saves during the fight? Undyne does "respawn" when she gets killed in the Genocide route too, but the player can still load their save file, which shouldn't be possible if Undyne respawned by saving. And the Amalgamates came back from death too, which shouldn't have been possible because either Flowey or Humanity existed at that time. Undyne and the Amalgamates do have DT, but they don't remember the saves, as shown when you spare an amalgamate and go back to your save (I never tried out, but I think I would have heard if they 'd spare you). Flowey does. How does all of that fit together?

And if the humans died during the war and then loaded, then why didn't the monsters just take the souls of the dead humans and used the save powers they acquire this way to stop the human(s) from loading their save files (like Photoshop Flowey)? Humans naturally have higher determination than every monster in the underground. Also, a lot of people do like to assume that Flowey was alive during the times when the other humans fell, which is actually false. Flowey came around sometime after the sixth human fell and Alphys used the Human determination to inject the flower to create Flowey. Remember that he was always trying to get the humans SOULS from Asgore, but he could never get it and eventually got bored enough to stop. If any of the humans fell down while he was alive, he could have used his power to kill them. Since his power was never taken from him until Frisk came along (since their SOUL trait is Determination), it would be assumed that he still had more Determination than any previous human and killing them would allowed him to acquire their human SOUL which never happened until Frisk fights Asgore. Huh. You are right, Flower never met other humans as he wouldn't have been injected with their determination then. Huge logic mistake on my part, sorry. I probably got the idea from the fangame where Flowey saves for the yellow-souled human.

However, this still leaves some questions:

1) How has Asgore been able to defeat 6 humans. I think I needed about 10 tries to beat him and there are probably people out there who are much better than me (I already panic when I fight a Vegetoid!). The humans should have easily bested them, especially considering the advantages of being a DT-user, namely being practically immortal. I don't remember it 100%, but I think one of them actually had Patience as Soul Trait, hence it shouldn't have been so problematic for them to just load a few times.

2) Undyne the Undying. What exactly happens when you kill her pre-Undying form. She succumbs to her wounds, dissolves, then comes back and lives. Her transformation is obviously due to her DT. What does she do exactly. According to my understanding of determination, when a determined being dies "something primal starts to burn inside them" and they get back to their save file. That obviously isn't what Undyne does, because then it would have impossible for me to load before her fight. Also Undyne has a very fierce temper. I doubt she would just repeat the same dialogue over and over again if she would remember the fight. She'd be bored by that.

3) The Amalgamates have the same issue. They should not have been able to resurrect while Flowey was loading and saving.

4) Then there is of course the Pacifist Run's end. Aside from being another example for Respawning, just like the Amalgamates and Undyne, that should have been made impossible by the presence of a more powerful DT-user, i.e. Asriel there is a problem with the dialogue prior to the boss fight. I had to quit during Flowey's sudden appearance and as a result, after I started the game again I had to go through the whole scene again, without Flowey acknowledging this. The problem is that, when Flowey appears, he uses photoshop tendrils, implying that he took the 6 human souls. That would make it impossible for me to reload after quitting, as Photoshop Flowey naturally is stronger than me.