Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20171223153443

TheHumanAmbassador

"Those are personality traits."

Those words describe how you need to act during a fight. Nothing indicates that they're describing personality traits.

"Correction:Having the MODE of kindness doesn't mean you're kind to the enemy."

"Exactly, the modes don't match the traits."

You're distinguishing modes and traits, but my point is, that they're the one and the same. What is your counter argument? That's what interests me.

"Protecting yourself isn't kind. It's just self-preservation."

Self-preservation is dodging magical attacks in general. We're talking about soul modes here. How they affect you. For example, integrity is described by the ball game has "hopping and twirling". Is this something that people with integrity do? Well... you can't say that it's a rule. No, this is what WE have to do with our soul when it's blue. The description of the traits given by the ball game literally matches what you gotta do in order to succeed. And the ball game describes green as "concern and care". Is that not how we act towards our soul when green? Do we not shield it against the incoming attacks? What you said could be applied to any mode. "Staying still isn't patient. It's just self-preservation." In short, your argument is invalid.

"There's a clear contrast between the fighting styles and the actual traits."

All I see is that it's not necessary to earn all the other flags in order to earn the red one, which, strangely, is described as a sum of all the other flags. I don't understand how is this supposed to prove that the flags are not talking about your fighting style, but about your personality. The ball game is ALL about the fighting style in fact. So again, you'll need to explain it better. Also, you're calling this a "plenty of evidence". How is that a 'plenty'?

"That is why multiple traits can exist"

Only if you believe what you already believe. You made that assumption just so that you could get rid the issue. Stop using circular reasoning already and address the core of the problem. Why do you think the default traits and the modified ones (modes) are not one and the same? I see no reason to believe that they're different things.

"Monsters don't change how you act, either. They change the rules of the battlefield."

That's what I meant. Of course you are forced to fight this and that way, of course there's no mind control involved. But if someone has one of these as their default trait, then it must be how they act during a battle, as I've explained above. Furthermore, the ball game is implying that there are no more than 7 traits, but humans have far more than just 7 personality traits. They must have. So that's another argument for my hypothesis. Since it is implied that there are only 7.

"Yeah, you are. In the pacifist run."

"It's just not caused by a green SOUL mode, since it can also happen in a Genocide Run."

So you can be kind, but without a green soul. And you can be mean, even with a green soul. This proves that soul modes change the mechanic of the battle and not your personality, yes, but it still doesn't prove that the default trait reflects one's personality. Ergo, it can still be true that humans with a green soul don't have to be kind, but just extra cautious during a battle.

"How about taking notes in order to minimalize damage?"

Purple is actually all about being confined to a movement on strings. "Even when you felt trapped" - that's the part that's referring to this. The one about notes is rather foreshadowing the battle itself (the spiders showing you the next round). And as for that other one, I meant minimalizing the damage done to the soul, by shielding it. Again, these two are concepts that you cannot combine. You're either not moving, or moving hastily, or jumping, or moving on strings, or protecting yourself in place, or trying to finish the opponent asap, or just kind of moving around however you please. You cannot combine these.

"I don't know about you, but I can't accept quantum mechanics when it's based entirely on the results of one specific experiment."

No, I mean it. Occam's razor my friend. You are the one splitting the traits into two distinct categories just because you can, not because of any discrepancy between the theory and the lore. You are doing this just because you want to justify your own headcanon.

"My theory very well explains the latter-We don't need to assign priority if we can explain both at the same time."

Using two different concepts. Yeah. Sure. And I can show you that you can in fact make Newton's relativity principles compatible with Einstein's. How? Well, it's simple. You just use a different set of equations for each! Huzzah!

Jokes aside, I can also explain both, but using only one concept. Even if it means that I stray away from the literal meaning of the ball in the ball game. Because that's okay. Nothing is forcing us to interpret it literally. You are always the one reading unnecessarily deeply into everything. You keep saying that the ball always represents the enemy. Why? It doesn't have to. Why can't it represent different things based on how the context changes?

"Alas, correlation does not imply causation."

It's the best theory we have. I'm sticking by it. Disprove it if you disagree. Also, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with the 50% probability here, nor what is it actually describing. There's no "chance" involved here. It's set in stone that human souls have much more soul power and DT in them than monster souls. Now, there's of course no reason to think that soul power is DT, but there's in fact no proof that soul power is a stand-alone trait (and therefore not DT) either. It could very well be just the overall "power" of the soul itself - a measure of the raw strength of a soul, the ultimate way to compare any two souls (monster or human) and definitely tell which one is stronger, which one is more dangerous when used as a weapon, based solely on some internal criteria. Such AS, determination. After all, it already correlates.

So, if you ever find proof that soul power is itself a trait, I shall drop this theory. But as of right now, it seems more reasonable to think that soul power is simply the measurement of the power of a soul, and that it depends on determination for the most part. Magic may also play a role, but a miniscule one. Else monster souls would be far stronger.

Also, one more thing. I said "which one is more dangerous when used as a weapon". What does this mean? Well, humans have no magic, right? They've been described as having water instead of magic. And yet, Omega Flowey successfully used them to cast powerful spells. I think their raw strength has the power to buff ordinary magic. It could serve as an amplifier. I've condensed these thoughts into the following post if you're interested: https://tsskyx.tumblr.com/post/162356512763/oh-ive-figured-it-out

"Considering how they can be more determined then Asriel with 6 human SOULS, plus the monsters"

I've already explained this once, no? Omega Flowey stole that power from Frisk, so there's no reason to think that Asriel, who had the power of 7 human souls inside him, wouldn't have it. All we know is that he wasn't able to Reset while Frisk was alive. So maybe, the Reset power requires a special condition, which is, that in order for a transfer of power to occur, the original owner must die. Maybe Omega Flowey did acquire that power after killing Frisk once, but he never used it, he just wanted to keep playing. While Asriel DID want to use it, but he could never get it, since he couldn't kill us... For some reason. Probably because we were too determined to die (as one of the peeps above suggested - still that's no proof that it was actually our trait showing right there).

"Explain Omega Flowey using this headcanon, and how it brought Frisk to the void"

I'm not sure what's there to be explained. And what do you mean by "the void"?

"He can-He mentions the "LV" in the corner, and when we and Flowey swap roles during the Omega Flowey's world, we can see his HUD. If you've previously had the power to SAVE, you can see the HUD."

I meant our own HUD. Of course he can see his own. Probably. And besides, I'm still not taking this entire HUD thing seriously. I still think that it's present only to make the game more visually appealing to us. I still don't believe in turns or buttons, or the save mechanic being an actual physical "save" either. None of that. It's not necessary for the story. In fact, it's only harmful. Saying stuff like Sans being proof that turns are real is the same as saying that their world cannot be "real", just because some Froggit knows about the "F4" option.

Really, it'll be for the best if we come up with an explanation for everything that isn't so "meta".

"Asgore too, he knows where the button for MERCY "should" be, and shatters it."

As I said, that was most likely a metaphor. As for the rest, it directly implies that everything is in a videogame, just like the Froggits mentioning the F4 button on your keyboard. Either you acknowledge that this game is self-aware, or you disregard ALL of it by coming up with an alternative explanation for everything and then say that it isn't. You cannot cherrypick. As for me, I'll stick to the latter option until some character non-jokingly references our real world. Flowey did, but that was just another meta joke. And no, he wasn't referencing Chara. That's just the alternative explanation. Usually, as it goes for this game, everything has a "primary" meta explanation, and then a "secondary/alternative" logical one. Either you stick only to the primary ones (which you did for the HUD), or only to the secondary ones (like you did with Flowey talking about someone watching). One isn't compatible with the other. If you acknowledge one case belonging to the primary category, all others must also fall into that category. And once you debunk something that is clearly meta using some logical explanation, you must do it for all other cases. Either everything has a logical explanation, or everything that borders the "meta" IS actually meta. Pick a side here.

''"How do we know he didn't? We, and nobody else, remind him of Chara, after all. Perhaps that's because Chara is with us? Asgore senses their presence, by hearing them?" ''

Well first, I don't think he has noticed the similarities between us and Chara right away, that infamous gasp might have just been him being surprised that we have finally arrived. Now. He said that we remind him of Chara because of the hope in our eyes. That's because Chara was very determined on their death bed. And we too were very determined during the battle. So no, he has only noticed the similarities, we didn't actually look like Chara. And besides, we can make Chara stay quiet by not acting at all. I don't know about you, but I don't think he has actually noticed Chara's presence. It was just the similarities that reminded him.

''" They can't. But my point is, if you CAN see the HUD, you can READ what Chara says." ''

Ah, so reading then. Still, I see no proof that Flowey can see our HUD. And about that evidence, first, where was that? I'd need a source. And second, it proves about as much as the froggits do (the F4 stuff and whatnot).

Now, I'll address all of those premises and conclusions of yours. Actually, I'll only summarize my thoughts.

Omega Flowey overwrote our own save when he gained control. That's natural, not some new power. And there's no instance of a save file being straight up deleted, so I'd rather not assume that it's possible. Next, yes, Asriel technically had the same powers as Omega Flowey, but he never overwrote our save file, since he only wanted to Reset.

And about the LV, yes. But wouldn't no data rather show null? Or maybe, that was the default level of violence, so when it loaded to LV1, it indicated that the one who this save belonged to gained one level already. Whether it was Chara, or Frisk. I think Dogs of Future Past explored this idea.

"Asriel could have just deleted Frisk's file without replacing it-That would initiate a RESET, due to no SAVE file existing."

Anyways, you said this. The fact is, that he wanted to Reset. Overwriting it with his own wouldn't have accomplished anything, as he would still need to kill Frisk in order to Reset. And I don't think it is possible to just straight up delete it. We've never seen such action in the game, so I'd rather not assume that it is possible.

''"Nochocolate literally had to make a blog post explaining why humans cannot SAVE and LOAD on the Surface." ''

You said the opposite. That they DID somehow save on the surface. Read your own texts more carefully.

" Of course, that blog post assumes that the fallen could SAVE and LOAD.. Circular reasoning, as that is what is used as evidence that the fallen could SAVE and LOAD " 

It's not circular reasoning if you prove the same point by assuming it is true. That's called making up things. Of course, they didn't just make that up, there's proof in other parts of the game that they could do so.

''<span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">" <span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">But as you saw, you don't need to make that assumption at all to prove humans couldn't SAVE and LOAD on the Surface." ''

<span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">If you meant one of your proofs by that, then I may have missed that.

''<span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">" <span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">That can still be a vague deja vu. You might feel like you already know someone BECAUSE they remind you of someone.. But you haven't figured it out yet. After all, for a long time, Flowey felt like he already knew you... Because of Chara. Why couldn't this be similar? Why can't this be Toriel projecting Chara onto the other humans, like Asriel theorizes he did with you?" ''

<span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:400;">Toriel said that only after we've correctly answered her guess, proving that she somehow knows something about us, as that guess was the option we've picked in the previous run. So she indeed implied that she had the same experience with the other humans, not that they reminded her of Chara. Since this isn't about our looks, it's about how we answer to her "feeling". And this isn't the only case like this in the game. Plenty of other characters also remember us like an old friend. Plus, Asgore "nods pityfully" when we say that he has killed us multiple times, which is proof that he already has experience with this, and most likely due to the fact, that the other humans said the exact same thing to him (it's still more plausible than some theory involving Sans; I mean, this one is already clicking into place without any problems).