Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180901060003

"That always sounded like a roundabout way of saying that you continue to be resolute or determined; seeing as how being yourself is a resolve in and of itself."

That's circular reasoning. Saying this translates to "staying determined" being proof of this phrase relating to determination is circular reasoning. The phrase merely implies an unchanging nature. So either, all other soul types can change, or this phrase is completely meaningless, implying the red trait is actually nothing in particular.

"and yet Frisk still prevented asriel from doing/getting what he wanted"

Which could again be explained by his soul being actually a composite one, warranting one more condition, that is the death of the previous owner. Or maybe, this condition is universal, meaning you always need to destroy the previous owner's soul. And the only reason we didn't have to do that with Flowey at the beginning was, because he had no soul.

I prefer this explanation, over making Frisk a literal Mary Sue.

Besides, why assume the other humans weren't capable of this, if they were cast in the same situation? For what we know, they could have been even more determined than Frisk. We just can't ever know, because they're dead, unable to utilize their souls.

"and yet the other humans clearly didn't"

If you mean Asgore, we know he's been holding back. A lot. The simple fact is, he defeated them, even though they were capable of resetting.

"DT as a power, and DT as a trait, are reasonably different"

Are you seriously implying that DT is sometimes not DT? Or that there are two types of DT or something? One exclusive for Frisk, one for everyone else? I think that's one of Camila Cuevas's dumb headcanons, that Frisk's DT is somehow "special" and belonging to a whole separate category.

Sheesh, talk about not overcomplicating a simple story line.

"As said before, you still had more DT than Asriel, hence why he kept trying to kill you permanently. He had the powers of a god, but he still didn't have more DT than Frisk."

Then tell me this, why did our soul REFUSE? If Frisk truly had more DT, there would be no problem in dying and then going back. Unless, if upon death, someone with even MORE DT than Frisk would immediately seize the control of the timeline.

This is why I think he couldn't kill us because his soul was a composite one. Since obviously he had more DT than us (due to the above), and yet, he HAD to physically kill us first. For sure if his soul was a natural one (just like Frisk's, when they first snatched the power away from Flowey), he would be able to reset without needing to kill us first.

Are we on the same page now?

Also, I believe this is a minor plot hole that Toby overlooked anyways. It seems too obscure for such an otherwise simple game. A game that contains many logical twists, in the most unexpected places. Such most likely isn't a work of a genius, but of a man who simply did a few mistakes in storybuilding. But sure, let's keep discussing this.

So, tl;dr this part, Asriel's composite soul prevented him from using the power right away, and he had to "deactivate" the previous user (Frisk) first. And the other humans failed, because Asgore is simply not weak, like literally everybody else. Come on anyways, give some credit to the big guy, he deserves it.

"Using these things, we achieved our goal of winning Ball Game. We were determined, as such we continued to be ourselves: resolute."

That's literally perseverance. The two are practically synonyms. Good thing that determination is used in a different context in the game, meaning the thing that literally allows you to change fate, as seen with Undyne or the amalgamates for example. And perseverance? That's what you're claiming DT to be.

Heck, your explanation supports my narrative as well. I keep saying that red souls have no assigned meaning. That they're constantly searching for it. Trying to find their "home". Perseverance allowed us to reach the end through struggle. But we've only gotten red after we tried literally every other approach. Ergo, we didn't just struggle, we explored. We searched for home. Alas, we keep being ourselves. We don't fit the system, we aren't happy with anything, and that's what makes us red. As THA put it, we are divergent. We belong to the scrap category.

And that's precisely my head canon for Frisk and Chara. That they ended up down here, due to them not fitting the system up there. (And as for the other children, that was a ploy.) But that's a story for another day.

"Except that there's nothing in the game about such a thing."

Neither there is about red being DT.

"

Bravery: you can face down as many attacks as you like, you're not getting back up once killed, or achieving your goal.

Justice: you can believe what you're doing is right all you want, you're not refusing the reaper or sparing Asriel with just that.

Kindness: Do I need to explain this one?

Patience: you can bide your time, that's not going to get you anywhere or further from death.

Integrity: you can be honest and true to yourself as much as possible, but that's not going to get Asriel to stop.

''Perseverance: Keep trying, keep attempting, keep going, and keep analyzing. That alone isn't going to get anything done when you exhaust yourself and Asriel gets you.''

"

Aka no other soul traits have any power whatsoever, only DT does. Is that what you wanted to say with this?

Bravery: You don't get scared away and sustain the wave of attacks.

Justice: You're not letting another reset reap away everyone's happiness all over again.

Kindness: Sometimes, to help someone means to hurt them first a little. Kinda like a vaccine shot. If you withstand the wave of attacks and don't let him have what he wants, you're being kind to Asriel.

Patience: You had to have patience with him. You didn't even need to fight back, he just resigned on his own in the end.

Integrity: If intergity is connected to morality, which I believe it is anyways (since jumping around is not a psychological trait), it means to do the right thing. And the right thing is, to secure everyone's hopes and dreams.

Perseverance: You persist through the battle. Simple as that.

See? I too can skew the meanings of these to support my own narrative. It's not difficult at all. THA has mastered this technique already.

"Frisk managed to do what they did because they were DETERMINED to spare Asriel and achieve that. They weren't JUST brave, JUST just, JUST kind, JUST patient, JUST honest, or JUST perseverant. They were all of these things, they were determined."

That's implying the definition of determination is bravery+justice+kindness+patience+integrity+perseverance. So why are both of you still relying on the dictionary definition of it?

Not only that, you deliberately used the dictionary definition to explain how can every other trait be a part of determination. In essence, you used this definition to argue why the in-game definition holds true. Now, that may not be that bad, but the thing is, this works with any trait, not just those mentioned in the game. All you need, is to say the trait is really strong, really prominent, and suddenly, you are "determined to uphold your trueness to that trait," aka "you are determined". And that goes for any trait that has a goal to pursue, like hate, anticipation, solidarity, etc.

Seriously. Determination is a physical power in Undertale, that's all there is known about it. And the dictionary definition doesn't apply, because the game defines it as the "sum" of the other 6 traits. So you cannot exactly take the dictionary definition and redefine it - use it to argue how each of those 6 traits relate to determination, when you're not only employing an entirely different definition, but also an arbitrarily ambiguous logical procedure that works for any firmly resolved trait, really.

Red might as well be DT, but at least stick to one consistent definition of it. If DT is a balanced mix, then keep treating it like one, find instances of this in the game, of Frisk displaying all 6 simultaneously, preferably at multiple points in time. Don't try to impose any other definition unto it.

"First off: what is this evidence? What's your proof?"

Human souls are used as a metric by the monsters. Soul power is determination. Therefore, humans have a set amount of DT in them. That is my proof. Although I'm sure you won't find it convincing.

Furthermore: any apparent fluctuations can be explained by differing amounts of this DT being 'allocated' by the essence - the brain of the soul. That is my interpretation of the story, based on this proof. Since of course DT can fluctuate, because otherwise, things like depression wouldn't exist. But the overall amount of DT within the soul stays constant, falling only when healing the soul, and getting replenished by, oh I dunno, an abundance of adenosine triphosphate within the body?

"Second off: Assuming they are, they're equal in Soul Power, but not DT. The barrier is powered by Soul Power, S/L/R and persisting after/refusing death are done, achieved, and powered through DT."

Alphys's terminology wasn't exactly correct here. There are no souls trapped within the barrier, I'm sure that's not what Toby meant. No, the barrier is a spell, kinda like monster attacks, except more permanent. So when speaking of soul power, we're really talking about the amount of magical power the barrier contains. 'Magical joules', or 'mana', if you wish. DT can also be translated into this metric, since Flowey used it to boost his own bodily magic. And we know the approximate ratio with monster souls: all of monsterkind > one human soul, although just barely.

Also, SLR isn't generated by DT, it is accessed through DT. And yet, it doesn't drain it away. I think the SLR is rather looking for the most determined being, and for that being, it unlocks itself. It doesn't actually need DT to be powered. At least, that is my interpretation.

And lastly, yes, persisting after death and refusing are both direct effects of DT.