Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20170730162247

Tsskyx wrote: TheHumanAmbassador wrote: 1-But WHY was he too strong? He didn't want to fit any of the humans, and if we eliminate determination as a possible explanation, none remains.

2-What if it's referring to some kind of determination then?

3-Why can't "StrongFish91" be referring to 1991, placing her birth before Chara even fell in the first place? Her parents do not exist, at least not anymore. If her parents taught her how to cook over time BEFORE their deaths, then why does she still cook so badly that she literally burns down her house?

And yet, Undyne instantly recognizes you as a human. She doesn't mistake you as another monster? Why is this? Even Papyrus couldn't tell you were a human, and he was SO enthusiastic to capture a human! Perhaps because she saw a human before?

4-True. Asgore more than likely did this on purpose, BECAUSE it's the rainbow. Look, I'm also saying cyan-orange-blue-purple-green-yellow might not have been the order. It could literally be ANY order of those six. But, no matter what the order is, why didnthe first human leave their stuff when there WAS nothing better, and why did ANY of the humans leave the Empty Gun, the most useful item in the game? And we can't say because it's empty, Frisk can obviously still use it just fine.

5-...?

6-Frisk shows sign of kindness in the Pacifist Run. Why isn't their SOUL green in pacifist? Because kindness isn't their dominant trait. Same thing here-Determination was not their dominant trait, they didn't have nearly as much as Frisk. SAVE points are yellow, we haven't seen determination itself.

Exactly, it wouldn't. My explanation was that Frisk was more determined, and therefore could SAVE and LOAD, unlike the other humans. Determination is the will to change fate. Their will to change fate was not great enough to change their eventual fall to Asgore. Frisk's WAS. Also, why is Chara's name the one on your SAVE file? Something else I would like to add:Asriel Dreemurr. When Asriel absorbed Chara's SOUL, the two shared control. But when Omega Flowey absorbed the six human SOULS, the six SOULS had no control whatsoever. Not until Frisk, with a red SOUL, called out to them. Kidness wouldn't side with someone trying to kill both races, and justice wouldn't side with the unjust. Yet they're not fighting back until Frisk calls out. And we can't say because they didn't know they could:CHARA couldn't have known THEY could do that either.

7-Yeah, you're welcome.

Except we'd have to apply that reasoning have to apply this to BOTH theories, and disprove the little evidence that goes against the OPPOSING theory. Once again, how does this invalidate the evidence I used against your theory? (That it wouldn't make sense for red to mean nothing, as the only logical explanation would be adding to the frequency, leading to that whole UV thing) 1) Asgore has high stats. And he did want to fight the first few humans. Maybe he kept telling himself that he's doing the right thing, or something to keep going forward. He didn't declare a war for nothing.

2) Afaik there's only one type of determination, and it's already been ruled out

3) Undyne doesn't know Toriel.

4) Maybe they just lost the stuff by an accident. We'll never know. I mean, this is a canon plot hole, not a hole in some wild theory of ours, so it's better if we don't think about it at all.

6) Absolutely correct. We didn't see their dominant trait. But we have some hints towards what that trait might be (that is, being yourself), and also all evidence is pointing out towards the fact that DT is yellow. Those save points are a manifestation of our determination after all. That's canon.

And for fuck sake I already pointed out like a hundred times that all humans had the same control over the timeline. Get over that fact.

And the souls in Omega Flowey had a power to rebel, just like Asriel's soul could in the fused soul. But they didn't. They had to be reminded of their true selves first. Determination is a power to resolve, to change fate, not to remind someone of their true selves. Anyone with some endurance would be able to convince those souls to stop attacking them and attack Flowey instead.

999) No, no frequencies. Stop that. That's not canon in the slightest. Color doesn't dictate the trait, the trait dictates the color. 1)Toriel reveals he didn't. He only declared war in a fit of rage, but by the time Asgore killed human #2 (We're counting Chara), he no longer wanted to do this. If he really wanted to free his kind, he could have crossed the barrier after collecting that ONE SOUL, taken six from the humans, and then freed everyone. But instead, he left everyone in despair, because he would rather wait, hoping another human never arrives.

2)Not if we say it's the DOMINANT trait that shows, as evidenced by Frisk's kindness not making their SOUL green. All humans have determination, just not ENOUGH determination.

3)2091? We don't know what year Undertale takes place, for all we know, it happens in 3000.

4)Except the plot hole can be explained if the kids just died where their stuff was found! It's a very simple explanation! There's no evidence any human fought Asgore. Asgore knowing about the ability to SAVE could come from the same source he figured out about the button commands from. He does destroy your MERCY, after all.

6)We also have hints the trait is determination-Only we were determined enough to survive the Underground. It took US to free the six human SOULS from Flowey. It took US to free the monsters from Asriel's control! The six human SOULS played no part, and instead just gave Asriel a further boost of power! Because they were under control by Asriel.

And I've pointed out how flawed that assumption was. That's what a lot of my other points were about. StrongFish91 not proving Undyne hasn't met other humans. Asgore knowing about SAVING coming from the same source of him knowing that MERCY is a physical button, capable of being destroyed. That there is no reasonable explanation why those humans would have died to Asgore, or before Asgore. Well, there is, the problem lies in as to why they STAYED dead. They would have had literal Save Scumming! There's the SOUL of pereservearance, who keeps going and eventually wins, even when they feel trapped! There's the SOUL of patience, who waits until the perfect oppertunity comes! Combine that with determination, and they could beat Asgore just like Frisk- Even if takes a lot of tries to do so.

It was the ASRIEL fight that you had to remind the MONSTERS of their true selves. In the Omega Flowey fight, all you had to do was call out to the HUMANS for help! Giving them the POWER to help!

Even after you saved the monsters in the Asriel fight this way, there was no way for them to take control of Asriel. And they knew their true selves. What DIDN'T they have? Determination. (Except maybe Undyne. But she didn't have NEARLY enough.) Instead, you needed to reach out to Asriel himself.

999)Yes, the trait dictates the color. But HOW does it dictate the color? What process does it go through to convert a trait into the ccolor it glows? THAT'S what this aims to explain. And that's the only self-consistent way that actually makes sense. Where are those waves of lights even coming from in the first place? The traits themselves. Sans and Papyrus being related to Gaster in any way whatsoever (other than the fact that Gaster kind of looks like a skeleton) is also not "canon".