Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20180104155430/@comment-32182236-20181001234910

...

Alright, now, I'll get to the post that I actually NEVER replied to yet! You missed my two posts, and I missed your one post! But with this post, there's no more missing posts!

"Huh? I never said one didn't play as Frisk...   Yes...?  I never argued with that either.   Also, you read it! Whatcha think?"

Yes, you did. You said we played as some third entity, "the player". That "the player", aka us, is NOT canonically Frisk. My take is that Frisk and the player are canonically one and the same. No super-secret third entity that we play as. So if characters talk to Frisk, they talk to us, and vice versa.

"Again, betrayal doesn't instantly make someone want to kill the traitor. Especially if said traitor is a beloved family member, the first question would be "Why?!" "

Knowing Chara's SOULless nature, thier immense hatred for humanity, and Asriel literally getting the both of them KILLED just to spare some humans (yes, the enemy according to Chara..) When they do meet again, Flowey apparently completely ignores them. Him trying to kill Frisk might help their nature a bit, but once we get to Toriel, and all the mosters encouraging mercy, mercy, even Toriel herself, when Chara's core philposhopy of the world is "kill or be killed", Toriel just replacing Chara with Frisk (from Chara's perspective, that is).. There is just no reason for them NOT to hatr monsters at this point.

"Why would he?"

No love. No hope. No compassion.

"He expresses he isn't able to take another reset and has clearly changed from all this. He's already done everything anyways, there's nothing left for him here."

How long until he backs out on his word about going to the Surface and tries to kill some humans to take their SOULs? I say a year at most. Probably less than 4 months. He's LV9999. Kill that flower. He's not even worth any EXP, that should be a sign in of itself.


 * Long ago, two races ruled over the earth. One day, w-(:&$/|


 * Everyone dissapared without a trace.|

"Well no, for that you need LOVE, the willingness to hurt. And that, again, is gained in a genocide run only.   Chara starts out neutral."

Chara tried to kill the humans. They have LOVE. LV1 is still LV, even though it's the lowest.

"No he got "us" killed from Chara's perspective, they were in this together."

They were in the plan to kill humans together, they didn't both decide they'd give humans the chance to kill them.

Chara:Are you suggesting this was MY fault?! This was ALL his fault!! I am in NO way responsible for our death.

"And Asriel showed no signs of being self-destructive enough to Kamikazi just to kill Chara so it's an illogical conclusion to reach, and Chara likes logical conclusions."

He did. By just standing there and doing nothing, refusing to let Chara attack.

Chara:Are you DEFENDING this traitor?!?! He was clearly TRYING to get us killed! *to Asriel* You think the humans were in the RIGHT? That their lives are more important than the lives of us, and the freedom of the monsters? REALLY?!?! After EVERYTHING we've went through? After they attacked us FOR NO LOGICAL REASON?!

"Besides Asriel didn't even stay behind to be struck down to dust, their(his and Chara's) body was very very hurt yes but Asriel went back home where they suddenly up and died from their injuries."

Asriel only left after he already just LET them take blow after blow.

"Honestly he probably didn't even see it coming. "

"He was struck with blow after blow. ASRIEL had the power to destroy them all.

But...

ASRIEL did not fight back.

Clutching the human...

ASRIEL smiled, and walked away."

Only after being stuck blow after blow did he even walk away. And there's just no reason to not try to flee sooner, or, from Chara's perspective, no reason to not just kill the humans already.

"Besides I highly doubt Chara was silent throughout that time Asriel mercied they probably argued over killing the Humans. So it should be understood he just didn't want to kill these Humans. And indeed he only agreed to SIX."

Chara:You see now why I hate humanity? We make a burial, and now they're trying to kill us. We HAVE TO KILL THEM TO SURVIVE!

Asriel:Nah, I'd rather they stay alive.

"Why would you reach this conclusion?  You've had SO many good times together, he helped you scare away suicidal thoughts, you slept in the same bed (seeing as there is only one bed in the RUINS home) you played together and confided and gifted each other, a solid conclusion like that is impossible to reach.  There would be confusion."

There are no suicidal thoughts with Chara. They didn't jump, they fell. That's what the intro shows. The Kickstarter flat-out says they fell, but canon there is questionable at best. The reason why they went to Ebott was to run away from humanity. And possibly meet the monsters that supposedly lived within, to see just how good they really are.

"You know, it's quite ironic. The humans attacked because they thought Asriel had killed Chara, and then, by refusing to fight, Asriel did in fact get Chara killed, but only after the attack."

"Well, again, they were fused, so they both died."

Doesn't change the fact that Asriel got Chara killed. In fact, it's even worse now if anything.

"Besides who knows, maybe he tried to talk all ACT like to the Humans while they were busy hackin' and slashing. It's not clear."

No, he just "smiled, and walked away."

"While that would fit them, again, there would be guilt, and again, all the memories you've had together."

Guilt over justice? Oh, come on. They hated humanity, and had no qualms with killing humanity (they came up with the idea to kill at least 6 humans). I don't think Americans feel guilty aboit all the Nazis they killed in World War II... As for the memories? Asriel's not on your side anymore. He defected to the humans. The ENEMY (to Chara).

"And throughout genocide, despite it being obvious who Flowey was, Chara let Asriel live up until they got enough LOVE to basically respond to his "Monsters like us wouldn't hesistate to kill each other if we got the chance" monologue with "Oh yeah...oh that's interesting! *steps forward*" with Flowey being "w-wait I didn't mean it like THAT""

I had no idea Flowey was Asriel until the True Lab, and it's not obvious in Genocide until his speech in New Home. It's impossible to figure it out until Asriel's story is told, actually. Either way, Flowey's LV9999, I think Chara needs to gather some power first.

"And again, even when the moment comes when Asriel steals the Asgore kill and Asriel goes on about how "it's me your best friend! please don't kill me!"Chara hesitates, it takes YOU pressing Z to start the chain reaction of angry slashing.  As if they were like "Alright Alright I'M DOING IT! sheesh" "

Pressing Z advances the cutscene. All we're doing is watching things play out. Try playing a game of Undertale without pressing Z once (outside of using it to FIGHT, or select an option on menus), and see how far you get. I don't think you'll get very far.

..You know, maybe trying to beat the game with the least number of Z presses might make a somewhat interesting challenge. Kind of like the A button challenge in Super Mario 64.

"​​​​but remember when Chara killed Sans they Interrupted his text, they did not wait for us to press Z they were pissed, here they weren't so willing to kill, they were willing. But not so willing.  And in theory we could reset without finishing that job by quitting the game.  Perhaps they held out hope."

Usually, you press Z to advance a cutscene that is emotionally significant. The final kill before the end definitely fits that, especially since his kill is not quite like the others, Chara would rather Asriel suffer through many attacks rather than just one.

"​​​​​​And it's at this moment of killing Asriel that we reach the point of no return and ERASURE."

As there is nothing left for you, or Chara to tie either of you to this world."

Oh, there is alright. Ever heard of the Surface? Oh, that's right, Flowey destroyed our only way to get there (Asgore's SOUL.) Still, maybe we can find a way to break into wherever Alphys evacuated the monsters.. Chara, we still have some killing to do.

"The first only occurs in Genocide."

Which places the "corruption" at late ruins, at the latest. So, why is it that sparing a unique encounter somehow brings them all back to normal, but this isn't the case with sparing other monsters, including that first Froggit? Cooperation, not corruption-They have very specific circumstances as to whether or not they consider you a worthy partner. Oh, and ever do a genocide, and they're somehow corrupted forever. Because why not? (Also, if you exit just as Chara appears, but before you answer their question, no post-Geno Pacifist, and no "corruption". That only happens very specifically, if they have your SOUL. As you can see, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

"The second is simply a statement of fact. Froggit IS trying to attack you."

So he is! Then it seems my original theory that the monsters aren't so peaceful is correct!

In that case, why does Chara attribute me killing the monsters to me wanting to kill humans too?

"But wait! Remember the part in the Determinators analysis where they mention that Chara is a "filthy monster apologist" that they "white knight every monster" in pacifist even while they attack you?

Chara describes Froggit in the CHECK in pacifist with "Life is dificult for this enemy" thus implying that you should take pity on them and that it's not they're fault they're attacking you."

Are you looking at general Froggit, or the very special first one? Because I'm talking aboit the very special first one. Every one after that, they say Froggit simply hopped close. Also, that's just another statement of fact. Sure, it's hard. Maybe they're encouraging us to mercy them out of it? To free them from this hard, hard life? *hovers SOUL over "FIGHT"*

"Chara is defending their actions here."

Doesn't look like it.

"They did, the UI does not show up before Chara wakes up, in the Flowey meeting it is completely missing along with narration and the name "Chara".

Not completely, the SOUL box is still there, the LV is still there, the HP bar is still there... The menu and items on the overworld are still there.. All that's missing are the options, which we won't be using anyway because it's just Flowey's turn, they haven't came to be for us yet, and Chara's name, which doesn't even belong to us. Did you notice that in Asgore's genocide "fight", there is no MERCY button at all? And that the UI vanishes again, this time COMPLETELY, when we approach Flowey for Chara to kill? Flowey also ruins the UI in Omega Flowey's fight. I guess Flowey himself has something to do with the lack of a UI.

"And Chara can change the UI as seen with the SAVE option."

They didn't make the SAVE option. It appeared on its own once we realized that we could SAVE our friends. Chara did drop that nice little hint, though.

"Flowey probably made his own mental UI. It probably isn't that hard, it's all in our head, like Chara is."

Why can't Frisk/us do it too, then? Also, why didn't Chara put the FIGHT button inside the box? Maybe the MERCY button there too? That'd give us a MASSIVE advantage, considering that the buttons still work even when it's not our turn (evidenced by Sans' battle.)

Also, why was FIGHT placed first, as the default option? Does Chara want us to fight after all?

"Duh the Monsters aren't innocent. It's a known plot point that every Monster that starts a fight with you is ACTIVELY trying to kill you.   Even Whimsun, though they are so low in their self-esteem that they can't get past simply encountering you."

So they aren't. So what's wrong with killing them again?

"And again, every time Chara is an apologist for them in pacifist. Saying Greater Dog "just thinks fighting is play, he just wants to play!" (paraphrasing of course)"

Fortunately, that's actually true. *throws a stick* Fetch, puppy! *Greater Dog spared.*

"But we also know why(Spear of Justice plays in my head), to escape their hell, which allows us to take pity and find another solution. A solution where no one gets hurt. In pacifist anyways."

Considering the monsters' nature of fighting, I don't think that peace will last long. Somebody's going to get the idea to absorb a human SOUL, and we'll be fighting a war all over again. I agree with Asgore pre-Chara. (What Gerson said about Asgore not wanting to free everyone) The Barrier was created for a reason.

"Undertale's lesson is that one shouldn't kill for any reason. That one should use mercy. Until Asriel adds the disclaimer that Floweys do exist and to watch out. That the real lesson is to not kill and to not BE killed. That's the best one can strive for."

Oh, that! We mostly follow that! Why do you think the Barrier was made instead of just exterminating the monsters?

"And like the fight with Asgore where you had to weaken him to get through to him. But even then, you don't kill him. (Flowey does.)"

Yeah, Flowey does alright.

"No way. If Chara wanted that they could even smile and fake any attack on the dead child body, they wouldn't bring this body, that is in mint condition (since Chara died from sickness) to this flower patch all peaceful-like if they wanted the Humans to attack."

I said:"To attract the humans' attention, then mention to Asriel how humans would attack just because Asriel's holding a body, somehow reaching the baseless assumption that Asriel's a murderer, and thus, they deserve to all die."

If Chara faked an attack, the assumption that Asriel killed Chara would no longer be baseless. Chara's message that the humans deserved to die would make no sense.

"Again, Chara is a person of concequences, these Humans drove Chara to their first attempt at suicide on Mt. Ebott and they likely wanted to show the humans exactly what they've done now that they have the opportunity."

By bringing a monster, which the humans were known to hate, have what looks like him holding their body? That won't get the message across at all! They never even tried to tell the humans what happened, they just waited for the humans to attack!

"Look at what you did." "You think you are above concequences."

???:Oh look, the guy we hated is dead! ..Ha, this isn't much of a consequence at- WAIT, A MONSTER KILLED HIM? That's it, he has to DIE before he kills us ALL!!

"Chara is an intelligent and logical person, they would never reach that conclusion. They are often confused when you do illogical things like checking a trash heap constantly."

They don't like you repeating stuff. And you're also a human. And they clearly hated humanity, Asriel knows this. If they hated humanity this much, why put it past them to do something like this? You think they can be convinced by YOU that monsters, their original friends, all deserve to die, and yet, you don't think they'd try to show Asriel humans attacking to justify their hatred, or that they WANT to eradicate a race that they already hate?

"And Toriel, their role model is also the brainy logical one."

More emotional, actually. Peaceful. Same goes for Asgore, but more on the warrior side of things.. Only because of what happened to Chara.

"That's because the betrayal isn't itself normally murder, and people actually have SOULs."

"It wasn't murder! Their death was indirect cause of his betrayal."

It's actually nearly directly, by just standing there, waiting to take blow after blow. And with Chara's SOULless mentality, and sheer ANGER at the plan being ruined, and no feelings of love or conpassion, Chara's that much more likely to reach this conclusion. But all he wanted was for no one to get hurt.

"At most they'd be locked in this dance forever, they're determined."

Asriel's determined too, and you can't even deal 1 damage. Asriel's DEF is 9999 according to the game files. Frisk and Chara combined still can't beat that, not at LV1.

"Chara didn't suggest this with a tone of "Ugh, I guess we HAVE TO save him" no, they said this with urgency. "

"But maybe, with what little you have, you can SAVE something else."

That was an alternative to just reaching for your SAVE file. Says a lot, doesn't it?

"Besides who knows, with all the lost Monster souls back if Chara didn't do this perhaps All our buddies who make up the final soul Asriel needs (the combined power of every monster equals 1 human soul) would betray Asriel like the souls did to Flowey. Maybe the human souls would join too."

They do it a lot quicker in Omega Flowey's fight than they do here. I suppose with seven SOULs, that's enough to fully take over any of our attempts to call out to them. Then again, we can save all the monsters first, and that's where Chara starts, so.. Maybe..

"As with Asriel and Chara and Frisk and Chara soul fusions are a partnership. And can be broken if the others don't feel like playing along."

When has Toriel EVER approved of killing Frisk? No, no, Asriel completely took them OVER. The same happened to the human SOULs in Omega Flowey's fight, until we managed to use our determination to free them.

"Yes, because unlike Chara, Frisk acted Merciful no matter what happens, just like how Asriel wanted."

Still doesn't change the fact that Asriel took them out and added Frisk in. Yes, what he did was right. But that's not what's important in tis analysis, what's important is how Chara would precieve this event.

"And no matter how hard Asriel tried they couldn't get Chara to forgive humanity. So they think Frisk is a better person."

That's true.

"But he doesn't hate Chara now. He just doesn't idolize them.(he literally says so) As he talks to them at the end of Pacifist and still cares about them, he makes the point that this time, he would not go along if Chara wanted to do something like reset the timeline."

He calls Chara the only threat left to everyone's happiness. That sound like admiration?

"Asriel has finally spoken up."

"He doesn't, otherwise he wouldn't visit Chara's grave. "Someone has to take care of these flowers" same BULLCRAP Toriel uses."

But someone DOES have to take care of the flowers, isn't that right? They're the only thing stopped humans who fall from getting injured or possibly even KILLED by the fall.

"He still values Chara and the time they spent together, he just thinks Frisk is a better person. And he doesn't regret what he did because look. With Frisk (and Chara)'s help we have a much much better ending to this barrier thing with no losses."

Chara:You call an ending where me and you are both DEAD, with NO SOULs, and all of those despicable humans are still alive a BETTER ENDING?!?

"Meanwhile the same thing happens with Chara in genocide but worse."

..What do you mean?

"If yellow means it's important, and red means that it's a strong, emotional event, rainbow probably means both are combined, along with some other conditions (the ones of the other colors). Now, if it's literally the end, and Asriel's about to unleash the apocalypse, don't you think that justifies such a flashy title-To signify just how proportionally important this foe is?"

"No way! Red and Yellow do not make rainbow and rainbows are always associated with Good things."

They're both ingredients, though. Why do you think I said "along with some other conditions", and even clarified those are "the ones of the other colors"? Blue text is also used to signify a certain importance by Sans, green is used as a descriptor by Undyne about your green SOUL..

"The text is also wavy (which isn't a statement of importance but it's related to joking around about something, such as when Sans, while a lost soul, cruelly jokes in wavy text about how the Human will never see their friends again, likely while recalling the fact he won't see his old friends ever again and encouring them to give up like he did.... Poor guy! give us that Gaster game already Toby! I want more Sans backstory!)"

That doesn't sound like a joke, but just plain cruelty. But at this point, Frisk probably deserves it. (Since, you know, Frisk killed them all?) It could be the sadness or anger from this as well-Both of those apply to Asriel, the current harbinger of destruction of the timeline, taking over everything.. The ultimate GOD of hyperdeath!

"Plus, again, the Narrator suddenly stops being pessimistic and gets excited and joke-y again during this time."

Serious Mode is on during Asriel's fight, isn't it?

"They enjoy the fight specifically as when Asriel stops this and declares he's going to end the world they get depressed about the end of the world again."

Of course. But the text is still wavy, right?

​​​​​​​""Chara: "Asriel Dreemur (all rainbow-y), the absolute GOD (someone is hyping!) of hyperdeath!" and describing all the "cool" (actually childishly named XD) attacks in CAPSLOCK."

Asriel named them, so yeah.

"I don't think so.  "Hyperdeath" is an incredibly nonsensical and childish title that only a pure kid like Asriel would come with, as Chara is too educated to make up such a title." Hyper-death. What is Asriel bringing to everyone?

,This is totally a character he made up, as when he takes that form he changes his persona drastically and even has a unique trade mark evil laugh "Ura ha ha!" acting like a TV villain."

At this point, he actually IS a villain, so...

"These attack names come with no indication of taking time to think of them Chara is REMEMBERING these childish attack names."

That one is true. They did play together, after all.

"And Chara never made up names for Monster attacks ever before then."

True.

"And they are super hype about it, sometimes even to the point of shivering. As the words can sometimes shake.    But this isn't from fear, but PURE excitement."

..Why can't it be fear?

​​​​​​"We are watching that child hood game in action, because honestly the main focus of Undertale is not the other Monsters or even Frisk, but the struggle of Asriel and Chara in their new life."

Maybe that'd explain why the song played during their story is called "Undertale".

"The majority of the plot revolves around them coping with this. Flowey trying to get Chara's attention his theme song being "Your best friend", Chara trying to see if Asriel right."

While I'm not with the latter, I do believe Chara and Asriel are the main focus of the story.. Well, plus Frisk too, of course. Chara's the narrator, and the entire reason of the monsters now attacking is because of what happened to Chara. Chara, Frisk, and Asriel-The three main characters.

"This is why I, side note here, headcanon "Once upon a Time" as Chara's theme.  That and the fact it plays in Chara's old home "home" (and the music box vers) and the fact it plays in "Undertale" which is all about the story of Asriel and Chara and look at that, it contains both "Once upon a Time" and "His theme"."

The latter is my reason for also saying "Once Upon a Time" is Chara's theme.

By the way, Reunited is a remixed version of Ruins, which is also played in Spear of Justice, and is remixed in "Don't Give Up." I believe this is the lietmotif of determination itself, for these reasons. ("Don't Give Up" is ALL ABOUT determination, Undyne is determined to strike you down, determination is a common motif throughout the game, like this theme..

"It really gives a new emotional side to this game's story! Poor kids."

Flowey especially.

"Well during a genocide run Chara replaces Asriel with YOU as their best friend, as you showed them the light (actually the dark) about the true meaning of this world and how Asriel was wrong to use MERCY.  When you take the Best Friend locket they originally gave to Asriel they say "Right where it belongs".    So of course they'd try the game on you.  New best friend."

I meant why didn't they say that to Asriel in the tapes, or in the Pacifist Route? You know, when they DO see Asriel as their best friend?

"Sure. I see it as Chara not wanting the world to end because they finally see that MERCY is the way, that no one should get hurt and that they don't want to forget what they've learned! They want to save Asriel, they don't even encourage an attack for the world's sake, but they aren't sure they CAN save Asriel until it works."

They'll probably be the only one NOT to forget besides Asriel himself.

"And let me ask again, why do they trust YOU to teach them? You're a human, and they hate humanity."

"Who else can they trust, Frisk and Chara are inseperable, literally."

Um, the monsters who say MERCY is the answer? You know, their FRIENDS? Also, they could just trust nobody but themselves as well.

"But maybe, if this human(especially considering that it is a HUMAN) can mercy if shown that that option is available in a fight (through the UI), it shows Asriel was right, and that it's Mercy or be Mercied... or whatever XD"

"Not all humans are murderers" =/= "Humans who DO attack can be spared"

"Our killing does not awake them from death(our DT does, like Asriel who was awakened when the flower that was busy getting nutrients from his dust was injected with DT to awaken his essense fromt hat dust, though soulless, when we fell we spinkled our DT over Chara's bones and it resserected their essense.)"

Of course not. Our "guidance" was during Flowey's introductory battle, at the latest. And yes, it was our DT. Even still, they'd see this as us guiding them to stay determined.

"Nor would they think they need someone to awaken them from death, they make it clear they were confused about the whole thing."

They were. Then they found out it was you, with your guidance.

"That last part is true, though it's more like they use your guidance to make an assumption, to try to reason a purpose, as to why they have been given this second chance. What did they just HAVE to see?"

Absolutely nothing. You're here because we met and my DT brought you back. That's the whole reason.

"Sure, but it wasn't really as quickly as you implied lol!"

It's lot quicker if you take out the time Frisk was asleep for. In that case, it's less than 30 minutes.

"Because he knows what the power of RESETing can do to a soulless being, even if their personality is good at first. Flowey was good at first, he descovered his SAVE power and used it to help people like a Flowery super hero!  But then he wondered what would happen if he said mean things to them.  Then it escalated to seeing what would happen if he started killing them.   That's how it starts. Flowey knows this and wonders if Chara will suffer the same fate as, like him, they "started" by using the SAVE power for good... He is suspicious from experience and wonders, since he'd be complately unable to tell, if this was the first time or not....  He knows power like that corrupts.  But it's unfounded, Chara does no such thing on their own, it is up to us the player to demand a True Reset."

I'm sure if they did have the power, they'd choose to reset...

"It's due to the fact he can't be himself anymore without a soul. True that he can't feel love. And love is a big part of Asriel's personality, he was compassionate."

And you say he'll STILL be compassionate enough to not kill everybody for fun? So, why aren't we supposed to think this new Flowey as Asriel again, Asriel?

"He said this because he can't bear seeing everyone again, but being unable to love them. And a short visit would just tear apart his mom and dad even if he did it in the time he had."

The fact that he's still alive is good news, isn't it?

"He literally says this. "Frisk, please leave me alone."   "I can't come back" " I just can't OK" I don't wanna break their hearts all over again(by essentially dying again). It's better if they never see me." "

Okay, that makes more sense. But still, doesn't explain his line not to think of him as himself, but to think of Asriel as just some friend you met for a while.

"No way, Chara cared about Asriel they wouldn't be that snappy or cruel. Asriel simply wanted to be a "good friend" and support Chara, ignoring his own feelings. In the end, he learns that this isn't true of good friends, and that he won't be there if Chara does something horrible like resetting pacifist."

Tell me, how do you think the conversation went? Fill in the blanks.


 * Asriel:I... I don't like this plan, Chara.


 * Chara:


 * Asriel:Wh.. What? N-no, I'm not... ...big kids don't cry.


 * Chara:


 * Asriel:Yeah, you're right.


 * Chara:


 * Asriel:No! I'd never doubt you, Chara... Never!


 * Chara:


 * Asriel:Y... yeah! We'll be strong! We'll free everyone!

Here's my take:


 * Asriel:I... I don't like this plan, Chara.


 * Chara:Are you crying about this, Asriel?


 * Asriel:Wh.. What? N-no, I'm not... ...big kids don't cry.


 * Chara:We all do sometimes, but that won't solve anything.


 * Asriel:Yeah, you're right.


 * Chara:Are you afraid our plan won't work? Are you doubting the plan I helped create? Are you doubting me?


 * Asriel:No! I'd never doubt you, Chara... Never!


 * Chara:I didn't think so. Listen, we CAN do this. The plan will work:It was planned out so. Remember, this is to free everyone. This is easy, simple. We just have to follow the plan.


 * Asriel:Y... yeah! We'll be strong! We'll free everyone!

Try to do better. Remember, it has to actually make a sensible conversation. Each line from Chara is supposed to be a reasonable response to what Asriel said, and it needs to be something that Asriel's next line would be a reasonable response to.

And again, it wasn't "my plan" it was "our plan" Chara was willing to take Asriel's input at that moment.

"Yes, they did. They were clearly real friends in that time."

Indeed.

"I know, but I disagree in that specific moment. Though it seems Chara did try to convince Asriel that Humans were bad without directly telling him why they thought this while they were talking, as Asriel says "It's not as nice up there as it is here" "there are alot of Floweys out there" that information could only come from Chara."

Yes, they did. Flowey knows this now, but not before. It must be because of the humans getting him killed.. What Chara was trying to teach Asriel about. He did say that's why he eventually believed in "kill or be killed".

"Maybe Asriel thought that, there is an indication that before Chara Asriel didn't have friends. Maybe he had some anxiety about that and kept that child hood game of there's going on forever with his over-powered OC and Chara's even though it's not true, of course Chara would want to play with him some more even if that game ended."

And if Asriel was implying otherwise, well.. Clearly he doesn't trust Chara to start playing other games with Asriel all that much. Or the same game again, of course. :3

"Yes they do, after realizing neither Frisk or Chara can move Frisk's body "can't move your body" and how neither can reach the save file they say "Maybe saving the game really is impossible... but, with what little power you have, you can SAVE something else" *flash* the rainbow-y SAVE option appears"

That doesn't mean Chara made it, it just means it appeared when we realized we could "SAVE something else, other than just this game between us and Asriel. (At least I think that's supposed to be what Chara meant by "game".. That lasts for the entire gameplay of Undertale...

"if you back out of it Chara is shocked beyond words "?!?!?!" as in, why would you deny this option."

That's the regular flavor text for afterwards. They're probably shocked about the button itself.

"And when you do press it, they aren't sure it will work...but it does! "You reach out to ASRIEL'S SOUL and called out to your friends! They're in there somwhere aren't they?! ... Within the depths of ASRIEL'S SOUL, something's resonating...!" they're surprised."

Or they're just plain excited that they found a way to bring everyone back, and then help take down Asriel with them!

"Asgore isn't fully dead by this time. It takes Asriel's attack to dust him and then shatter his soul."

In that case, FLOWEY killed Asgore, not Chara. Either Chara killed him by bringing him down to 0HP, and that was BEFORE Flowey showed up, or Flowey was the one to kill Asgore.. After he showed up. So which is it?

"No the first encounter was Flowey, and they were not there along with narration and even Chara's name."

They don't appear until the first time you would get to use them, and Flowey likes ruining the HUD. Chara's name doesn't appear in Omega Flowey's battle either, by the way.

"Well, in a way, we share the Determination, we fuel Chara's. So yes, they were ours."

It ultimately comes from us..

"No we also learn we are not Frisk, Frisk and Chara are both described as seperate entities that we control but that are not us."

Only Chara was described as separate, and we're never implied to control Chara.

"Flowey, while talking to Chara, is really talking about us when they mention to just let Frisk be happy, as WE are the ones who rebooted the game."

Either he was talking to Chara or he wasn't. And it's clear it was to Chara. He talked about Frisk in third-person because Chara =/= Frisk. Sure, we (Frisk) heard him because we share a body, but he was still talking to Chara. And Frisk is the real threat, which happens to be us

"​​​​Well, no. In my genocide example, when Frisk gives maniac expressions to the Monsters players often do not. (They're often like oh this is horrible but I wanna see what happens, or they're let's players, Flowey is actually a greater allogory.)"

Only one maniac expression was actually used, and that was presumably Chara (LV19, New Home, Flowey's speech to "Chara".)

Yes, Flowey is a great parallell to us. Sans also makes this intention clear-We do it because we can, and since we can, we "have to."

"Temmie is a she but yes."

Therefore, we shouldn't use that as evidence.

"Lol he wouldn't consider it if he was serious."

Well, now we know Temmie was joking too, so, either way, that particular tweet is not canon.

Perhaps this was self-referential, Toby said tweets aren't canon in a tweet, so he made sure to put something non-canon in that tweet as well. Like saying there's a chance the nursery rhyme is canon.

"Nah, I was busy. And still am to do the rest.  I'll get to it eventually!"

And I finally finished!