Talk:Chara/@comment-33170295-20200107164313/@comment-32182236-20200116152830

"not if the monsters see it as, asriel took charas body to see the golden flowers, the humans attacked without justification, asriel killed them to defend himself and used the opertunity to take six souls and break the barrier, never knowing that that was the plan all along."

That plan only specifically works if they attack. So I guess even your take says Chara did plan on provoking the humans after all. (And if the humans didn't attack, then Chara really couldn't have justified it to the monsters.)

And there's actually something quite strange. According to the story, Chara died at night. And so did Asriel. Yet they still saw what happened. I wonder why?

"The king and queen had lost two children in one night."

Seems either Asriel or Chara was being quite loud. And there's really no reason to do that. Just walking along to bury the body? That's a quiet, peaceful stroll. And attacking the humans when they're asleep? Isn't that the best time to do it? Because then it'll be quicker? And also with far fewer witnesses, lowering the odds of only 6 humans dying?

That or it was only early evening, and Chara for some reason decided not to wait until nightfall. Which would be the perfect opportunity to actually put their body on the flowers without the humans noticing.. AND the perfect opportunity to sneak-attack 6 humans. Hmm, I wonder why they didn't do that, if they didn't want to attract the humans, they should have just waited until nightfall.. OH WAIT.

..It's pretty clear they were.

Jacky, can you think of questions the monsters might have about what happened if that was indeed the plan? Provoke the humans to attack by burying the body in the golden flowers, specifically to justify killing them and breaking the Barrier by saying "they attacked us first"? ..The village has far more than six humans, so use that fact to your advantage. It might help you form the objection. I tried to think of one, but I failed.

"Asriel isnt stupid, he would know that those humans attacked because they thought he killed Chara."

Though it's for quite a silly reason. Combine that with the fact that humans are the ones that banished monsters in the first place, and you must just be able to give Azzy a case against humanity.

Though this plan did end up actually failing, though. Though I don't know anything better they could have done.

"So you said that Chara wanted a war because they wanted to anihilate humanity and then that they wanted to wage another war for no reason?. So what are your evidneces that Chara intentionally planned a war?"

I'm saying killing off the village was Phase 1, and that would lead to another war where the rest of humanity could be eradicated, Phase 2.

And the fact that the humans attacked first would make Asriel more likely to go along with Phase 2, after seeing first-hand the humans attack just because Asriel HAPPENED to be holding a body, walking right towards the flowers, as if to bury it. Screams rang when they were at the flowers.

"How? And where are your proofs? If they really wanted a monster eager to destroy humanity, they wouldnt take the compassionate Asriel, they would take literally anyone else."

I have two objections to the idea.

1:At the time, literally NOBODY was eager to destroy humanity. Chara's arrival ironically gave monsters hope that they can live together with humans. This was a time of hope. Things didn't get hectic until AFTER the death of Asriel.

2:I'll say it again-Destroying humanity wasn't their ONLY goal. After all, they didn't try to kill Asriel and absorb his Boss Monster SOUL. They were still friends with Asriel. And they had to pick someone. So why not the monster they trust the most? Their best friend? Someone that could keep it a secret as well?

"Oh yes and you know the 6 human souls they would absorb? Do you remember that the control split? That the six human souls would have 1/8 of the control?. How would they menage to convince them to destroy humanity?"

Same way Flowey managed to get the six SOULs to help him? Until things got ruined by Frisk?

It seems as though only the red SOUL has the ability to break free. The only two SOULs that seemed to have influence on the outcome of mergers were Frisk's (to free the six SOULs) and Chara's. (Having partial control over Asriel).

The other six would likely be stuck under Asriel's control. And having just seen what the humans did to them, Chara'd convince them not to listen to those "evil" humans. After all, these are the people who literally just tried to kill them!

This is probably something where Jacky's case is a different one. I wonder what it is?

---

"Yes, in this SPECIFIC place, coincidentally where the flowers they draw bloom."

So you think the only place nearby where the flowers bloom.. Is this one village.

Flowers bloom in nature too, you know.

By the way, Chara was in Asriel's body, alive and well. Why get buried in the golden flowers, when that's not even where they are?

"He could feel that they wanted to kill humans, if they wanted to attack the villagers before the attack, he would have felt it before and retreat."

That is, if they TRIED to attack the villagers before the attack. They didn't.

"I'd say that they wanted to rest it on the golden flowers."

But what if they're seen sooner than this?

"If they tried to do since the moment they entered the village, why didnt Asriel resist and retreat like he did when the villagers started to attack them?"

Because they didn't. My whole point is that they attacked when the villagers did, though they planned it sooner. This is the very REASON why Asriel went along with it until that happened.

"Also, Chara was carrying the body until they came to the center, so its really likely that it happened when the villagers started to attack them."

That is what happened. But why, and what does it mean?

"But it could be justified. They thought that Asriel killed Chara and he had a scary appereance, Asriel could easily get that they were simply afraid."

And that is what happened. After all, that's the story told by the monsters underground, who could only have gotten that story from Asriel. Or Chara. Or both. They didn't see what happened up there.

But what better could they have done? This was the best they had. And if you think Asriel STILL refusing after that would lead to a grudge, you'd be right. Because that's exactly what I think happened, and is part of why Chara goes along with the Genocide Route later on.

"So there's no need to wage another war between humans and monsters"

..The killing of the rest of humanity IS the war. A battle where two sides right, where at least one of them is a large number of people? That's called a war.

"Or Chara was simply acting out of self defence and didnt think of consequences?"

That's certainly what it was supposed to look like. But that takes us back to the flowers question. And it means that if Chara planned on provoking the attacks (which your explanation of them justifying the broken Barrier to the monsters requires that they have done), then by extension, the fact that a war would follow means that, well, the plan involved exterminating all of humanity.

"Then why would they bring back their dead body in the underground instead of burrying it on the surface?"

They didn't. That was ASRIEL. Chara wanted to keep fighting, but ASRIEL took blow after blow, before finally running away. I don't think he would have been focusing on that wish, just resisting Chara's attempts. This was a life-or death situation, so getting a body buried in the flowers is sort of not the priority right now.