Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20180104155430/@comment-28974149-20180915195745

TheHumanAmbassador wrote: "Some of it is, some of it isn't. Both Frisk (which is the player), and Chara are evil, but Chara is ONLY evil during the game-They weren't like this in their backstory. The main things that changed them were Asriel betraying them and the fact that they are now SOULless."

"Hi, I know I likely haven't explained this in the most convincing of ways in either post. Mostly because I was on like 6 hours of sleep(, the link (https://determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this) explains the analysis best."

You've actually contradicted it before:Even that analysis agrees that you play as Frisk, and that final speech was Flowey talking to Chara. (Yes, he was talking to Chara.)

"Anyways, onto this. Well, being SOULless does not make you evil by default. Even Flowey says, this, while being soulless and discovering his RESET power, after a "pacifist", he then did a "genocide" and when he first started killing he felt guilty but he just wanted to see what would happen and over time the killing got easier. He couldn't love anyone, but after getting used to the death he sure could LOVE everyone."

Sure, you don't instantly become evil by being SOULless, that was just half the story. The other half was Asriel getting the two of them killed.

"And again, at the end of Pacifist, he becomes good."

For a while. Give him a few months, and he'll surely devolve ot being evil once again.

"A soulless person has limitations, but not inevitabilities. They can show concern for others and retain a portion of their past identity."

Sure, they do retain it for that way. But without any actual love, you're going to start losing that as things happen. And that person literally getting you KILLED is probably enough to do that. (It's not just he cheated at a game or ratted you out-He basically got you KILLED. Chara probably thinks Asriel is directly responsible for the murder:Aka, Asriel helped kill Chara:Ergo, Asriel doesn't appear to care about Chara AT ALL anymore. Basically, they think of Asriel the same way those people who think Chara was evil in life think of Chara.)

"And well, just because Asriel betrayed them doesn't mean Chara would want to kill him outright, if your beloved friend (in Chara's case even adoped sibling) betrays you, you'd be depressed at first you might even deny it and think of excuses, it might turn to anger over time but you wouldn't want to kill them would you?"

If he basically killed me outright, and all of my love had vanished (no SOUL?) He was probably never my friend to begin with, was he?

You know, it's quite ironic. The humans attacked because they thought Asriel had killed Chara, and then, by refusing to fight, Asriel did in fact get Chara killed, but only after the attack.

"And again, even being soulless doesn't SPARE you from the guilt of doing such an thing..."

Chara probably sees it as an act of justice, if anything.

"And once more, Chara is not evil during the game unless you, with "your guidance" show them the ways of the dark side. You say you know narrator theory, well does the narrator prompt for any evil to be done ever?"

I've given you several cases of this. "Let's finish the job." "Froggit attacks you."

"No. They do give you choices however, in the form of the U. I. but they sit back and watch YOU. Teacher."

They don't create the UI-That exists on its own, just like the save files do. Flowey didn't have Chara as a narrator before we came around making the UI now, did he? All they are is the narrator that creates the narration text.

"And as soon as the first Whimsun, class is in session."

But what about that first Froggit which they flat-out state is attacking you, before the Froggit even made its move? Either Chara's trying to get you to kill an innocent monster, or Froggit actually wants to kill you, and thus, monsters aren't so innocent after all, and Genocide might not be an actual evil genocide (at least not until we kill Papyrus, but by that time, the narration about killing is already obvious) Which is it?

"No that was in self-defense Chara could not have foreseen that attack, but Asriel did not want to kill for ANY reason."

They did-That's the only reason why they brought their body to the surface in the first place-To attract the humans' attention, then mention to Asriel how humans would attack just because Asriel's holding a body, somehow reaching the baseless assumption that Asriel's a murderer, and thus, they deserve to all die.

"Stopping them. Again, nobody's normal reaction to a betrayal by a close friend is murder."

That's because the betrayal isn't itself normally murder, and people actually have SOULs.

"Sure there are, instead of letting them rot, they pushed you save him reminding you of "someone else" that needs to be saved though remembering Frisk could do no more than call their name, as they has no good times to use to revive Asriel, but Chara did (cue slideshow), besides, after his rousing speech about really really caring about Chara more than anyone ever, after regaining himself, there is no way Chara wasn't moved to tears of forgiveness, they were "..." throughout the whole thing."

Look, if Chara didn't do that, Asriel would win, and gain control over the timeline. Now I'm pretty sure Chara doesn't want that to happen.

Also, right after that speech, Asriel then decides that Frisk is the friend they always wanted, not Chara, and then reaffirms his initial position-That he should NOT have killed the humans, and it was worth getting the both of them killed, because he doesn't want to declare war on humanity (you know, that evil race that you really really hate, Chara?)

So, Asriel basically tosses Chara aside, replaces them with Frisk, and then says getting Chara killed was worth keeping humanity alive. That sound like him making up with Chara?

"And gave no hostile descriptions towards Asriel ever. Just a hopeless one at first saying "it's the end" and all, until he went rainbowy then they started getting childish and happy."

If yellow means it's important, and red means that it's a strong, emotional event, rainbow probably means both are combined, along with some other conditions (the ones of the other colors). Now, if it's literally the end, and Asriel's about to unleash the apocalypse, don't you think that justifies such a flashy title-To signify just how proportionally important this foe is?

"Chara: "Asriel Dreemur (all rainbow-y), the absolute GOD (someone is hyping!) of hyperdeath!" and describing all the "cool" (actually childishly named XD) attacks in CAPSLOCK."

Hyperdeath. Yeah. He's a "god", yes, but so was Ares, God of War. And something tells me Chara was going for something similar to Ares here.

"Interestingly, if you notice, Flowey's creepy face has some of the mouth details from Hyperdeath Asriel, seems like he was playing this game all along!"

Yep.

"Just too dead kids best friends playing one more time.... Asriel and his OC. Maybe "the demon that comes when people call it's name" is Chara's OC, and their creepy face goes with it.. A theory from the link."

Makes you wonder why they used that term when speaking to you, but not to Asriel. That is, if your take on it's actually true..

"Anyways this changes back to "..." and "This is the end." when Asriel deciedes he's had enough of the game and takes his true form."

Yep. And Chara doesn't want it to be the end. They want a way out of this. They don't want Asriel to take control of everything.

"They did not, they are utterly neutral, they just watched you and nothing more their Level of Violence was at One with as it is with 0 Execution Points, only acting on what you do. And honestly the fact they were taking a backseat while you showed them what to do (unlike the lead they took on Asriel) shows they had utterly lost faith in knowing the correct answer themselves."

I've mentioned a few lines that show they weren't taking a backseat right now. And let me ask again, why do they trust YOU to teach them? You're a human, and they hate humanity.

"Chara never had to rely on anyone's "guidance" before now..."

But now they're dead, and they need someone to get them alive again. Someone to help awaken them from death. Guide them towards new life.

"What? No. Not that quickly he still has time to visit Chara's grave and even tell you a bit more about what happened back then if you all the way back to the start in the good end before leaving."

By "quickly", I meant "in less than one day." Yes, you can visit Asriel, but once you reach the Surface, and try to play Pacifist again, Asriel did indeed turn back into Flowey. And if you're only Asriel for a few hours at most, that's pretty short-lived, don't you think?

"Yes he isn't deflowered but he's a changed Flowey now, he says so himself when you try to start up the game again after Pacifist. He says he couldn't bear another reset and shows concern over Frisk and the gang. I say he's no longer a lost soul, desperately searching for that friend they lost."

Of course not, he's found Chara again. He even talks to Chara. But wait. Why did he assume that Chara's seen the message a hundred times already?

...Also, that's JUST after Asriel turned back into Flowey. As I said above, give him a few months. There's a reason why Asriel said he can't go back to the surface with you, and to not think of him as Asriel anymore once he turns back into Flowey. He himself knows he's doomed to spiral back into our corrupt flower.

"He is SAVEd. They even assert their dominance over Chara, which they could not do when they talked. Even after Chara likely questioned the plan and likely asked for his opinion and Asriel replied "No! I'd never doubt you Chara, ever!""

Asriel was the one questioning the plan, then, after something unknown that Chara said, Asriel said he'd never doubt Chara. This implies Chara probably said something like "Are you doubting my plan? Are you doubting me?"

"We know this isn't from abuse (as some theorize) as we know Chara and Asriel were very close, and this was "our plan" even if due to his inability to doubt his best friend, Asriel took a submissive role in the plan. They obviously shared deeply personal things. "I know why Chara climbed the mountain"- Asriel."

Yes, they did. They were clearly real friends in that time.

"Even if they couldn't even share with Asriel why they hated Humanity as easily as they could share being suicidal."

My theory on why Chara took their body to the village was to SHOW them that reason. Just saying it wouldn't do it justice-They were going to SHOW them why, so Asriel could see for himself.

"And Asriel repeats again and again "You're the only one that truly understands me", Chara who as narrator tends to deeply analyze Frisk's feelings made Asriel feel understood likely by doing the same. They're empathetic in nature. A shrink. Literally "a small child climbed up mount ebott""

Well, it's to Frisk, thinking that it's Chara, but I'll give you that Chara was the only one to understand Asriel when they were alive, because that's pretty much proven. ( The quote was something like "Even now, you're still the only one that understands me", and we had "We're still inseparable, even after all these years..")

"And we see their mutual best friend gifts they gave to each other, Chara giving Asriel the "worn dagger" described in pacifist by Chara as perfect for cutting vines and other gardening uses (while in genocide it's called a "real knife" instead for obvious reasons. Even if since it's worn it wasn't too useful for the purpose of killing but Asgore hid all the knives "Where are the Knives?!" so this is as close to a real knife as you can get and with LV you can kill any monster as their souls are weak to it.) ​ And Asriel giving Chara a "best friends" locket of which one was likely worn by perhaps Chara or him while the other stayed behind. (Unless the gifts were never swaped and just remain on each other's side of the room in which case it would still make sense, as in-game evidence shows they liked gardening and it would be cuter if Chara gave them the locket especially they tend to work hard when they do things like knitting Asgore's sweater so it makes sense alot more care would go into Chara's gift perhaps they made the locket themselves.)"

Yes, they were friends.

"Point is, Asriel spilled how much he cares about Chara during his fight and the feeling is mutual."

"If you win, you won't want to play with me anymore! So I'll just make it last forever!"-Asriel (rephrased)

"When Asriel is involved you are either too far into pacifist or too far into Genocide to get a neutral answer, in pacifist they help you save him."

They don't make the button appear.

"In Genocide they well no, they don't murder him, YOU DO. No really you have to press Z yourself."

You have to press Z to advance dialouge all the time-Pressing Z advances the cutscene:Besides, there was no fight button, and you had no other choice. Here, I have a link too:http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/145625412741/chara-kills-flowey-without-your-permission

"But once you do, they keep stabbing. They're getting it over with, and after this final act of murder, of their own god damn brother. . They are at a point of no return where they go on to murder Asgore and tell you their spiel."

They kill Asgore BEFORE Asriel shows up.

"Where the genocide run cannot be aborted."

Once you reach Asgore, it's already too late.

"There are absolutely no hints that Chara wanted this done themselves."

What about the quotes I just gave you? Those WERE the hints I was talking about. Go on, explain them.

"They give you absolutely no pointers on how to deal with a monster, they just give you a set of options and watch YOU."

They don't create the options. They were already there. And the first monster encounter, they say Froggit attacks you, as contrasted with every encounter afterwards.

"No, it's because they are actually the one in control of the file, they have more determination than we do. Determination to see why they have been brought back to life."

"My 'human SOUL'. My 'determination'. They were not mine, but YOURS."-Chara

They actually have basically no determination on their own.

"We are NOT Frisk, we see at the end of Pacifist that Frisk is their own character with their own name who's identity is seperate from our own."

..When? We learn that our name is Frisk in the epilogue, and we have Flowey speaking to Chara in his final speech. Never that we're not Frisk. What we DO learn is that we're not Chara.

"And much like Chara, depends on the run as we see in genocide Frisk give maniac looks at monsters, and it wasn't Chara we already know what it looks like when Chara takes over from the post-genocide pacifist end."

Yep, this is Frisk killing the monsters, not Chara. Chara only starts killing from Sans onwards, and at the post-genocide pacifist end.

"Player is their own entity. Just like Chara is their own entity."

We have no evidence of that, and all the evidence suggests that they are canonically Frisk, just as Player is canonically Link in the Legend of Zelda.

"(https://78.media.tumblr.com/3b86cca03677cc61456fb2eb64ac8dea/tumblr_inline_o7vawh6E6f1s2rk6q_500.png)"

This was clearly a joke, since Temmie also said that you would want to kill him because you're Chara, implying that Chara DOES want to kill everyone. ..Just before saying that Chara is chill. So, he contradicted himself.

"He was joking, he said that the ultimate canon was this weird nursery rhyme with pictures of his characters slapped onto them. He was clearly joking."

He actually said he hasn't decided on that. Chances are, he ruled against it.

..I suppose you forgot about getting back to do the rest of it. "You've actually contradicted it before:Even that analysis agrees that you play as Frisk, and that final speech was Flowey talking to Chara. (Yes, he was talking to Chara.)"

Huh? I never said one didn't play as Frisk... Yes...? I never argued with that either. Also, you read it! Whatcha think?

"Sure, you don't instantly become evil by being SOULless, that was just half the story. The other half was Asriel getting the two of them killed."

Again, betrayal doesn't instantly make someone want to kill the traitor. Especially if said traitor is a beloved family member, the first question would be "Why?!"

"For a while. Give him a few months, and he'll surely devolve ot being evil once again."

Why would he? He expresses he isn't able to take another reset and has clearly changed from all this. He's already done everything anyways, there's nothing left for him here.

His final act is to reassure Chara if you boot up the game again.

"Sure, they do retain it for that way. But without any actual love, you're going to start losing that as things happen. And that person literally getting you KILLED is probably enough to do that. (It's not just he cheated at a game or ratted you out-He basically got you KILLED. Chara probably thinks Asriel is directly responsible for the murder:Aka, Asriel helped kill Chara:Ergo, Asriel doesn't appear to care about Chara AT ALL anymore. Basically, they think of Asriel the same way those people who think Chara was evil in life think of Chara.)"

Well no, for that you need LOVE, the willingness to hurt. And that, again, is gained in a genocide run only. Chara starts out neutral.

No he got "us" killed from Chara's perspective, they were in this together. And Asriel showed no signs of being self-destructive enough to Kamikazi just to kill Chara so it's an illogical conclusion to reach, and Chara likes logical conclusions.

Besides Asriel didn't even stay behind to be struck down to dust, their(his and Chara's) body was very very hurt yes but Asriel went back home where they suddenly up and died from their injuries.

Honestly he probably didn't even see it coming.

Besides I highly doubt Chara was silent throughout that time Asriel mercied they probably argued over killing the Humans. So it should be understood he just didn't want to kill these Humans. And indeed he only agreed to SIX.

​​​​So I doubt this.

"If he basically killed me outright, and all of my love had vanished (no SOUL?) He was probably never my friend to begin with, was he?"

Why would you reach this conclusion? You've had SO many good times together, he helped you scare away suicidal thoughts, you slept in the same bed (seeing as there is only one bed in the RUINS home) you played together and confided and gifted each other, a solid conclusion like that is impossible to reach. There would be confusion.

"You know, it's quite ironic. The humans attacked because they thought Asriel had killed Chara, and then, by refusing to fight, Asriel did in fact get Chara killed, but only after the attack."

Well, again, they were fused, so they both died. Besides who knows, maybe he tried to talk all ACT like to the Humans while they were busy hackin' and slashing. It's not clear.

"Chara probably sees it as an act of justice, if anything."

While that would fit them, again, there would be guilt, and again, all the memories you've had together.

And throughout genocide, despite it being obvious who Flowey was, Chara let Asriel live up until they got enough LOVE to basically respond to his "Monsters like us wouldn't hesistate to kill each other if we got the chance" monologue with "Oh yeah...oh that's interesting! *steps forward*"  with Flowey being "w-wait I didn't mean it like THAT"

And again, even when the moment comes when Asriel steals the Asgore kill and Asriel goes on about how "it's me your best friend! please don't kill me!"Chara hesitates, it takes YOU pressing Z to start the chain reaction of angry slashing. As if they were like "Alright Alright I'M DOING IT! sheesh"

​​​​​​And it's at this moment of killing Asriel that we reach the point of no return and ERASURE.

As there is nothing left for you, or Chara to tie either of you to this world.

"I've given you several cases of this. "Let's finish the job." "Froggit attacks you.""

The first only occurs in Genocide.

The second is simply a statement of fact. Froggit IS trying to attack you.

But wait! Remember the part in the Determinators analysis where they mention that Chara is a "filthy monster apologist" that they "white knight every monster" in pacifist even while they attack you?

Chara describes Froggit in the CHECK in pacifist with "Life is dificult for this enemy" thus implying that you should take pity on them and that it's not they're fault they're attacking you.

Chara is defending their actions here. So no they do not want you to kill Froggit.

"They don't create the UI-That exists on its own, just like the save files do. Flowey didn't have Chara as a narrator before we came around making the UI now, did he? All they are is the narrator that creates the narration text."

They did, the UI does not show up before Chara wakes up, in the Flowey meeting it is completely missing along with narration and the name "Chara".

And Chara can change the UI as seen with the SAVE option.

Flowey probably made his own mental UI. It probably isn't that hard, it's all in our head, like Chara is.

​​​​​​"But what about that first Froggit which they flat-out state is attacking you, before the Froggit even made its move? Either Chara's trying to get you to kill an innocent monster, or Froggit actually wants to kill you, and thus, monsters aren't so innocent after all, and Genocide might not be an actual evil genocide (at least not until we kill Papyrus, but by that time, the narration about killing is already obvious) Which is it?"

Duh the Monsters aren't innocent. It's a known plot point that every Monster that starts a fight with you is ACTIVELY trying to kill you. Even Whimsun, though they are so low in their self-esteem that they can't get past simply encountering you.

​Even Greater Dog.

And again, every time Chara is an apologist for them in pacifist. Saying Greater Dog "just thinks fighting is play, he just wants to play!" (paraphrasing of course)

But we also know why(Spear of Justice plays in my head), to escape their hell, which allows us to take pity and find another solution. A solution where no one gets hurt. In pacifist anyways.

Undertale's lesson is that one shouldn't kill for any reason. That one should use mercy. Until Asriel adds the disclaimer that Floweys do exist and to watch out. That the real lesson is to not kill and to not BE killed. That's the best one can strive for. And like the fight with Asgore where you had to weaken him to get through to him. But even then, you don't kill him. (Flowey does.)

"They did-That's the only reason why they brought their body to the surface in the first place-To attract the humans' attention, then mention to Asriel how humans would attack just because Asriel's holding a body, somehow reaching the baseless assumption that Asriel's a murderer, and thus, they deserve to all die."

No way. If Chara wanted that they could even smile and fake any attack on the dead child body, they wouldn't bring this body, that is in mint condition (since Chara died from sickness) to this flower patch all peaceful-like if they wanted the Humans to attack.

Again, Chara is a person of concequences, these Humans drove Chara to their first attempt at suicide on Mt. Ebott and they likely wanted to show the humans exactly what they've done now that they have the opportunity.

"Look at what you did." "You think you are above concequences."

Chara is an intelligent and logical person, they would never reach that conclusion. They are often confused when you do illogical things like checking a trash heap constantly. And Toriel, their role model is also the brainy logical one.

"That's because the betrayal isn't itself normally murder, and people actually have SOULs."

It wasn't murder! Their death was indirect cause of his betrayal. But all he wanted was for no one to get hurt.

"Look, if Chara didn't do that, Asriel would win, and gain control over the timeline. Now I'm pretty sure Chara doesn't want that to happen."

At most they'd be locked in this dance forever, they're determined. Chara didn't suggest this with a tone of "Ugh, I guess we HAVE TO save him" no, they said this with urgency. Besides who knows, with all the lost Monster souls back if Chara didn't do this perhaps All our buddies who make up the final soul Asriel needs (the combined power of every monster equals 1 human soul) would betray Asriel like the souls did to Flowey. Maybe the human souls would join too. As with Asriel and Chara and Frisk and Chara soul fusions are a partnership. And can be broken if the others don't feel like playing along.

"Also, right after that speech, Asriel then decides that Frisk is the friend they always wanted, not Chara, and then reaffirms his initial position-That he should NOT have killed the humans, and it was worth getting the both of them killed, because he doesn't want to declare war on humanity (you know, that evil race that you really really hate, Chara?)"

Yes, because unlike Chara, Frisk acted Merciful no matter what happens, just like how Asriel wanted. And no matter how hard Asriel tried they couldn't get Chara to forgive humanity. So they think Frisk is a better person. But he doesn't hate Chara now. He just doesn't idolize them.(he literally says so) As he talks to them at the end of Pacifist and still cares about them, he makes the point that this time, he would not go along if Chara wanted to do something like reset the timeline.

"If you DO end up erasing everything.. You'll have to erase MY memories too.  ...  I'm sorry."

Asriel has finally spoken up.

"So, Asriel basically tosses Chara aside, replaces them with Frisk, and then says getting Chara killed was worth keeping humanity alive. That sound like him making up with Chara?"

He doesn't, otherwise he wouldn't visit Chara's grave. "Someone has to take care of these flowers" same BULLCRAP Toriel uses. He still values Chara and the time they spent together, he just thinks Frisk is a better person. And he doesn't regret what he did because look. With Frisk (and Chara)'s help we have a much much better ending to this barrier thing with no losses.

Meanwhile the same thing happens with Chara in genocide but worse.

​​​​​​​"If yellow means it's important, and red means that it's a strong, emotional event, rainbow probably means both are combined, along with some other conditions (the ones of the other colors). Now, if it's literally the end, and Asriel's about to unleash the apocalypse, don't you think that justifies such a flashy title-To signify just how proportionally important this foe is?"

No way! Red and Yellow do not make rainbow and rainbows are always associated with Good things. The text is also wavy (which isn't a statement of importance but it's related to joking around about something, such as when Sans, while a lost soul, cruelly jokes in wavy text about how the Human will never see their friends again, likely while recalling the fact he won't see his old friends ever again and encouring them to give up like he did.... Poor guy!  give us that Gaster game already Toby! I want more Sans backstory!)

Plus, again, the Narrator suddenly stops being pessimistic and gets excited and joke-y again during this time. They enjoy the fight specifically as when Asriel stops this and declares he's going to end the world they get depressed about the end of the world again.

​​​​​​​""Chara: "Asriel Dreemur (all rainbow-y), the absolute GOD (someone is hyping!) of hyperdeath!" and describing all the "cool" (actually childishly named XD) attacks in CAPSLOCK."

Hyperdeath. Yeah. He's a "god", yes, but so was Ares, God of War. And something tells me Chara was going for something similar to Ares here."

I don't think so. "Hyperdeath" is an incredibly nonsensical and childish title that only a pure kid like Asriel would come with, as Chara is too educated to make up such a title. This is totally a character he made up, as when he takes that form he changes his persona drastically and even has a unique trade mark evil laugh "Ura ha ha!" acting like a TV villain.

These attack names come with no indication of taking time to think of them Chara is REMEMBERING these childish attack names.

And Chara never made up names for Monster attacks ever before then.

And they are super hype about it, sometimes even to the point of shivering. As the words can sometimes shake. But this isn't from fear, but PURE excitement.

​​​​​​We are watching that child hood game in action, because honestly the main focus of Undertale is not the other Monsters or even Frisk, but the struggle of Asriel and Chara in their new life.

The majority of the plot revolves around them coping with this. Flowey trying to get Chara's attention his theme song being "Your best friend", Chara trying to see if Asriel right.

This is why I, side note here, headcanon "Once upon a Time" as Chara's theme. That and the fact it plays in Chara's old home "home" (and the music box vers) and the fact it plays in "Undertale" which is all about the story of Asriel and Chara and look at that, it contains both "Once upon a Time" and "His theme". And even if you think "Reunited" is Frisk's theme, well it makes perfect sense that in the background is "Once upon a time" (after a moment) as Chara is linked to Frisk. And other situations where it makes sense if you think about it. In the end of Pacifist, plays "Last goodbye" an emotional rendition of "Once upon a Time", finally, at peace. That's how I see it.

"Yep."

It really gives a new emotional side to this game's story! Poor kids.

"Makes you wonder why they used that term when speaking to you, but not to Asriel. That is, if your take on it's actually true.."

Well during a genocide run Chara replaces Asriel with YOU as their best friend, as you showed them the light (actually the dark) about the true meaning of this world and how Asriel was wrong to use MERCY. When you take the Best Friend locket they originally gave to Asriel they say "Right where it belongs". So of course they'd try the game on you. New best friend.

"Yep. And Chara doesn't want it to be the end. They want a way out of this. They don't want Asriel to take control of everything."

Sure. I see it as Chara not wanting the world to end because they finally see that MERCY is the way, that no one should get hurt and that they don't want to forget what they've learned! They want to save Asriel, they don't even encourage an attack for the world's sake, but they aren't sure they CAN save Asriel until it works.

"And let me ask again, why do they trust YOU to teach them? You're a human, and they hate humanity."

Who else can they trust, Frisk and Chara are inseperable, literally. But maybe, if this human(especially considering that it is a HUMAN) can mercy if shown that that option is available in a fight (through the UI), it shows Asriel was right, and that it's Mercy or be Mercied... or whatever XD

"But now they're dead, and they need someone to get them alive again. Someone to help awaken them from death. Guide them towards new life."

Our killing does not awake them from death(our DT does, like Asriel who was awakened when the flower that was busy getting nutrients from his dust was injected with DT to awaken his essense fromt hat dust, though soulless, when we fell we spinkled our DT over Chara's bones and it resserected their essense.) nor would they think they need someone to awaken them from death, they make it clear they were confused about the whole thing. That last part is true, though it's more like they use your guidance to make an assumption, to try to reason a purpose, as to why they have been given this second chance. What did they just HAVE to see?

"By "quickly", I meant "in less than one day." Yes, you can visit Asriel, but once you reach the Surface, and try to play Pacifist again, Asriel did indeed turn back into Flowey. And if you're only Asriel for a few hours at most, that's pretty short-lived, don't you think?"

Sure, but it wasn't really as quickly as you implied lol!

"Of course not, he's found Chara again. He even talks to Chara. But wait. Why did he assume that Chara's seen the message a hundred times already?"

Because he knows what the power of RESETing can do to a soulless being, even if their personality is good at first. Flowey was good at first, he descovered his SAVE power and used it to help people like a Flowery super hero! But then he wondered what would happen if he said mean things to them. Then it escalated to seeing what would happen if he started killing them. That's how it starts. Flowey knows this and wonders if Chara will suffer the same fate as, like him, they "started" by using the SAVE power for good... He is suspicious from experience and wonders, since he'd be complately unable to tell, if this was the first time or not.... He knows power like that corrupts. But it's unfounded, Chara does no such thing on their own, it is up to us the player to demand a True Reset.

"...Also, that's JUST after Asriel turned back into Flowey. As I said above, give him a few months. There's a reason why Asriel said he can't go back to the surface with you, and to not think of him as Asriel anymore once he turns back into Flowey. He himself knows he's doomed to spiral back into our corrupt flower."

It's due to the fact he can't be himself anymore without a soul. True that he can't feel love. And love is a big part of Asriel's personality, he was compassionate. He said this because he can't bear seeing everyone again, but being unable to love them. And a short visit would just tear apart his mom and dad even if he did it in the time he had.

It's better this way.

He literally says this. "Frisk, please leave me alone." "I can't come back" " I just can't OK" I don't wanna break their hearts all over again(by essentially dying again). It's better if they never see me."

"Asriel was the one questioning the plan, then, after something unknown that Chara said, Asriel said he'd never doubt Chara. This implies Chara probably said something like "Are you doubting my plan? Are you doubting me?"

No way, Chara cared about Asriel they wouldn't be that snappy or cruel. Asriel simply wanted to be a "good friend" and support Chara, ignoring his own feelings. In the end, he learns that this isn't true of good friends, and that he won't be there if Chara does something horrible like resetting pacifist.

And again, it wasn't "my plan" it was "our plan" Chara was willing to take Asriel's input at that moment.

"Yes, they did. They were clearly real friends in that time."

Indeed.

"My theory on why Chara took their body to the village was to SHOW them that reason. Just saying it wouldn't do it justice-They were going to SHOW them why, so Asriel could see for himself."

I know, but I disagree in that specific moment. Though it seems Chara did try to convince Asriel that Humans were bad without directly telling him why they thought this while they were talking, as Asriel says "It's not as nice up there as it is here" "there are alot of Floweys out there" that information could only come from Chara.

"Well, it's to Frisk, thinking that it's Chara, but I'll give you that Chara was the only one to understand Asriel when they were alive, because that's pretty much proven. ( The quote was something like "Even now, you're still the only one that understands me", and we had "We're still inseparable, even after all these years..")"

Yes.

""If you win, you won't want to play with me anymore! So I'll just make it last forever!"-Asriel (rephrased)"

Maybe Asriel thought that, there is an indication that before Chara Asriel didn't have friends. Maybe he had some anxiety about that and kept that child hood game of there's going on forever with his over-powered OC and Chara's even though it's not true, of course Chara would want to play with him some more even if that game ended.

"They don't make the button appear."

Yes they do, after realizing neither Frisk or Chara can move Frisk's body "can't move your body" and how neither can reach the save file they say "Maybe saving the game really is impossible... but, with what little power you have, you can SAVE something else"  *flash* the rainbow-y SAVE option appears, if you back out of it Chara is shocked beyond words "?!?!?!" as in, why would you deny this option. And when you do press it, they aren't sure it will work...but it does! "You reach out to ASRIEL'S SOUL and called out to your friends! They're in there somwhere aren't they?! ...  Within the depths of ASRIEL'S SOUL, something's resonating...!" they're surprised.

"You have to press Z to advance dialouge all the time-Pressing Z advances the cutscene:Besides, there was no fight button, and you had no other choice. "

Yeah I read no chocolate before, it was my half-way point to how I looked at Chara, from cringy fanon satan child to no-chocolate theory to what I have now, which I have often talked about with no-chocolate as being surpirior to this theory. They just told me I don't have to believe what they said lol.

​​​​But yes, that is true, they're right..about this lol.., but remember when Chara killed Sans they Interrupted his text, they did not wait for us to press Z they were pissed, here they weren't so willing to kill, they were willing. But not so willing. And in theory we could reset without finishing that job by quitting the game. Perhaps they held out hope.

​​​​​​​"They kill Asgore BEFORE Asriel shows up."

Asgore isn't fully dead by this time. It takes Asriel's attack to dust him and then shatter his soul.

"They don't create the options. They were already there. And the first monster encounter, they say Froggit attacks you, as contrasted with every encounter afterwards."

No the first encounter was Flowey, and they were not there along with narration and even Chara's name.

"

"My 'human SOUL'. My 'determination'. They were not mine, but YOURS."-Chara

They actually have basically no determination on their own."

Well, in a way, we share the Determination, we fuel Chara's. So yes, they were ours.

"..When? We learn that our name is Frisk in the epilogue, and we have Flowey speaking to Chara in his final speech. Never that we're not Frisk. What we DO learn is that we're not '''Chara." '''

No we also learn we are not Frisk, Frisk and Chara are both described as seperate entities that we control but that are not us. Flowey, while talking to Chara, is really talking about us when they mention to just let Frisk be happy, as WE are the ones who rebooted the game.

"Yep, this is Frisk killing the monsters, not Chara. Chara only starts killing from Sans onwards, and at the post-genocide pacifist end."

Yep.

"We have no evidence of that, and all the evidence suggests that they are canonically Frisk, just as Player is canonically Link in the Legend of Zelda."

​​​​Well, no. In my genocide example, when Frisk gives maniac expressions to the Monsters players often do not. (They're often like oh this is horrible but I wanna see what happens, or they're let's players, Flowey is actually a greater allogory.)

"This was clearly a joke, since Temmie also said that you would want to kill him because you're Chara, implying that Chara DOES want to kill everyone. ..Just before saying that Chara is chill. So, he contradicted himself."

Temmie is a she but yes.

"

"He was joking, he said that the ultimate canon was this weird nursery rhyme with pictures of his characters slapped onto them. He was clearly joking."

He actually said he hasn't decided on that. Chances are, he ruled against it."

Lol he wouldn't consider it if he was serious.

​​​​​​​"..I suppose you forgot about getting back to do the rest of it."

Nah, I was busy.

​​​​​​​