Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-35640811-20180307024503/@comment-32182236-20180326161716

"No human souls were used to create Flowey. Only determination. If Alphys wasted a whole human soul worth of determination, that power would be kinda missing then, don't you think? And yet, all 6 souls are present. So the amount of DT used on Flowey was MINISCULE compared to the human soul levels."

Fallacy #1:Assumes SOUL power is the same thing as determination without evidence

Failure #1:The "missing" power is still absorbed by Asriel, so no events in the game would have changed. Therefore, this argument is invalid.

"And no, those deja vu moments weren't caused by Flowey. Toriel said that it's been a long time since a human fell. Flowey hasn't existed for that long, because Snowdrake is still a teen, and he ran away (presumably as a teen, or as a young kid) from home after his mother didn't return from the lab. Assuming "teenage" means "teen age" as it logically should, and assuming that by a long time, Toriel means at least 20 years or so (since she is immortal and is most likely hundreds of years old, so the time she was speaking of cannot be something puny like 2 years), then there is no way Flowey encountered any of the humans that fell between Frisk and Chara."

Well done. ....Once you provide evidence that "teenage" was explicitly used, rather than just acting similar to our teenagers, which, by monster lifespan, would probably be like 200 years. Everything after that is valid (Well, "a long time" COULD mean 2 years, no reason to say being immortal changes that, but there's further evidence that the previous human had to have fallen longer ago than that-Specifically, the time gap between the war and Frisk falling, and the fact that naturally, humans would fall at a steady race, so your argument is still, in essence, valid.)

The last part isn't evidence. It could just mean we're the first human to override his determination. It'd have the same meaning. Pretty sure the other humans didn't have red SOULs. Chara may have, but, then again, Asriel wasn't injected with determination at the time. However, if you manage to prove that "teenage" was explicitly mentioned here, you've still proven your point.

However, ironically, I also have an argument saying this is still impossible. Yep, despite debunking your arguments, I'm still going to be taking your side.

The premise we're trying to debunk is that Flowey had control the full time. None of the humans had it, because Flowey did they who,e time.

....Have you spotted the problem yet? Oh, that's right, I didn't hint at it yet.

Flowey was created with determination extracted from human SOULs. Human SOULs captured by Asgore. Now, let's state the premise again, but rephrased:Flowey was in control before a single human, outside of Chara, fell underground and got captured.

....Found a contradiction yet? If you did, great job! If not, well, here you go..

We know that Flowey was created using determination from captured human SOULs. But, where did those SOULs come from, if no humans fell and got captured yet? ....Yep. At least one human had to have fallen before Flowey's creation. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any determination to inject into Flowey. And (to whoever's debunking this), don't say it's Chara's SOUL. If that was captured, don't you think Asgore would have kept it? Besides, red SOULs shatter, as proven by Frisk. When Chara died, there was a SOUL shatter.