Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180901163744

"That's circular reasoning. Saying this translates to "staying determined" being proof of this phrase relating to determination is circular reasoning. The phrase merely implies an unchanging nature. So either, all other soul types can change, or this phrase is completely meaningless, implying the red trait is actually nothing in particular."

That flag on its own perhaps doesn't imply anything about that. But we have to interpret it in a way that makes the other red flag make sense as well. Now, being yourself mostly fits in with blue.. But blue's already taken. So, there has to be something deeper going on. Something that allows it to represent all six traits, to make red. Or just plan say what red is, but that red has to be the combination of all six traits somehow, not just another version of blue.

"Which could again be explained by his soul being actually a composite one, warranting one more condition, that is the death of the previous owner."

So you don't want to make rules that complicate things to explain turns, which was flat-out mentioned by Sans, but you DO want to make rules that complicate things just to make red NOT determination, when there's no real evidence it can't be determination? #DoubleStandards

"Or maybe, this condition is universal, meaning you always need to destroy the previous owner's soul. And the only reason we didn't have to do that with Flowey at the beginning was, because he had no soul."

Omega Flowey didn't have to do that to us. Debunked.

"I prefer this explanation, over making Frisk a literal Mary Sue."

Frisk isn't a Mary Sue. Chara would have these same abilities, and so would 1/7th of the human population. Besides, don't you think them having the ability in the first place is already stretching the line towards being a Mary Sue?

"Besides, why assume the other humans weren't capable of this, if they were cast in the same situation? For what we know, they could have been even more determined than Frisk. We just can't ever know, because they're dead, unable to utilize their souls."

As I said, they would be able to win any battle. Asgore can't keep dodging forever:Keep attacking.

"If you mean Asgore, we know he's been holding back. A lot. The simple fact is, he defeated them, even though they were capable of resetting."

With the literal power of REFUSE, you cannot lose. Can't keep dodging forever. Keep attacking.

"Are you seriously implying that DT is sometimes not DT? Or that there are two types of DT or something? One exclusive for Frisk, one for everyone else? I think that's one of Camila Cuevas's dumb headcanons, that Frisk's DT is somehow "special" and belonging to a whole separate category."

Malice's take is likely that just because you have DT doesn't mean DT is your trait. A DT trait gives you an ABUNDANCE of DT, far more than a human with a different trait would receive.

"Then tell me this, why did our soul REFUSE? If Frisk truly had more DT, there would be no problem in dying and then going back."

It's not strategic. What's the point in starting the whole battle over, when you can fully heal, and continue, where you are? I'm sure if you were fighting a super hard boss battle, you'd rather be able to revive yourself with full HP, with the boss being just as damaged as they were before, then having to start the whole battle over. Frisk didn't have that ability before then, though:There wasn't a big enough DT flux.

"This is why I think he couldn't kill us because his soul was a composite one. Since obviously he had more DT than us (due to the above), and yet, he HAD to physically kill us first. For sure if his soul was a natural one (just like Frisk's, when they first snatched the power away from Flowey), he would be able to reset without needing to kill us first."

Tell me, what's wrong with me doing something similar to explain the turns?

"Also, I believe this is a minor plot hole that Toby overlooked anyways. It seems too obscure for such an otherwise simple game. A game that contains many logical twists, in the most unexpected places. Such most likely isn't a work of a genius, but of a man who simply did a few mistakes in storybuilding. But sure, let's keep discussing this."

So you are applying your version of Toby logic to your own theory after all! And then proceed to say it doesn't matter here, but does elsewhere.

And it doesn't even have to be obscure! Undyne has a DT fluctuation. Wouldn't it be FAR simpler to just say that Frisk had one too?

"That's literally perseverance. The two are practically synonyms."

Being yourself has nothing to do with perseverance. That's blue. So we have blue and purple. Already starting to mix the traits. ..Now to just get the other four..

"Good thing that determination is used in a different context in the game, meaning the thing that literally allows you to change fate, as seen with Undyne or the amalgamates for example."

And being determined gives you more, as shown with Undying. Undying clarified how a DT boost works, and Asriel proves that it can happen to humans.

"Heck, your explanation supports my narrative as well. I keep saying that red souls have no assigned meaning. That they're constantly searching for it. Trying to find their "home". Perseverance allowed us to reach the end through struggle. But we've only gotten red after we tried literally every other approach."

Not necessarily. You can get red the first time around. So your explanation fails here, at the very beginning. So the rest, which you've build on top of, all falls down.

"As THA put it, we are divergent. We belong to the scrap category."

That's not what I said at all. What I did say is a natural side effect of the dominant trait theory:If you don't have much of 6 out of 7 traits, the seventh trait is going to be your dominant trait. Say this is your average human:

O=30, Y=40, G=35, LB=50, B=40, P=30

Now, I don't know how exactly the six traits combine and form the red one, just that they do. For the sake of example, I'll just say that red is the same as the lowest regular trait, multiplied by 1.5 (it can really be just about any number above 1, we're not sure)

In that case, R=45 (30 is our lowest trait), and LB, with 50, is their trait. Now, imagine this scenario:

O=20, Y=4, G=2, LB=6, B=2, P=4. By extension, R=3.

All of these traits are quite low, but orange, despite being LOWER than it was in the previous human, is still the dominant trait, just because all the other traits dropped.

So no, I never said it was a scrap category, it's just a result of the fact that take away from all the other traits, and the one you leave is now your dominant one.

"And that's precisely my head canon for Frisk and Chara. That they ended up down here, due to them not fitting the system up there. (And as for the other children, that was a ploy.) But that's a story for another day."

Oh please, we all know Suzy's a more likely candidate for Frisk, and we know for a near fact why Chara fell-They hated humanity.

"Neither there is about red being DT."

True, all we have is many, MANY cases of Frisk being associated with DT. But, by saying it's NOT the sum, you're disregarding the first flag. I'd rather add something in that doesn't have much evidence besides PLENTY of hints, and would explain many things at once, than look at actual evidence and completely disregard it, and then having to come up with complex explanations for the stuff I've now failed to explain. One complexity and no evidence left behind, or many resulting divergent complexities, plus one plot hole (the first red flag)? I'll take the former, please.

"Aka no other soul traits have any power whatsoever, only DT does. Is that what you wanted to say with this?"

They all have their merits, but just one of them isn't going to stop Asriel.

"Bravery: You don't get scared away and sustain the wave of attacks."

Yes. But how is that going to stop him from attacking more? How is that going to SAVE your friends? Remember, you can't use all the other traits, else you're creating DT. With just bravery, how do you do it? Sure, sure, you keep fighting on. But we're not asking if you'd choose to not run away, are we? We're asking if you have the power to literally REVIVE yourself.

"Justice: You're not letting another reset reap away everyone's happiness all over again."

You don't want to, but that doesn't give you the POWER to. Surefire accuracy is one thing, but that's not going to let people come back to life anytime soon! Besides, how is that going to help you when you keep losing over and over anyway?

"Kindness: Sometimes, to help someone means to hurt them first a little. Kinda like a vaccine shot. If you withstand the wave of attacks and don't let him have what he wants, you're being kind to Asriel."

True. But that's not going to give you the power to come back, or not give up. You need something else for that.. You can SAVE your friends, but how are you supposed to reach that point?

"Patience: You had to have patience with him. You didn't even need to fight back, he just resigned on his own in the end."

Go ahead, take as much time as you need. And die.

"If intergity is connected to morality, which I believe it is anyways (since jumping around is not a psychological trait), it means to do the right thing. And the right thing is, to secure everyone's hopes and dreams."

That, combined with Kindness, means you now have a way to SAVE your friends! Good job! ...Good luck getting to that point, though.

"Perseverance: You persist through the battle. Simple as that."

Congrats! You know how to fight on, no matter how tough it gets. Now, how do I kill Asriel again? What, kindness? Oh, come on..

"See? I too can skew the meanings of these to support my own narrative. It's not difficult at all. THA has mastered this technique already."

If you look closely, each trait gave you something you needed to stop Asriel. That alone couldn't do anything, but by combining them all together, you could. And tell me, what do you get when you combine the six traits together?

"That's implying the definition of determination is bravery+justice+kindness+patience+integrity+perseverance. So why are both of you still relying on the dictionary definition of it?"

It's both, really. Undying shows it's also the dictionary definition, and thus, we had to look at the six traits, and see how they form determination. And really, they all form the aspects you need for determination.

"Not only that, you deliberately used the dictionary definition to explain how can every other trait be a part of determination. In essence, you used this definition to argue why the in-game definition holds true."

Want to use the in-game definition and ignore the dictionary definitions? Look at MY earlier take on the matter, which used only what the flags have to say!

"Now, that may not be that bad, but the thing is, this works with any trait, not just those mentioned in the game. All you need, is to say the trait is really strong, really prominent, and suddenly, you are "determined to uphold your trueness to that trait," aka "you are determined". And that goes for any trait that has a goal to pursue, like hate, anticipation, solidarity, etc."

And my edition of it didn't have this problem either! Instead of saying you're determined to be brave, I showed how just being brave contains a quality of determination-Not running away in fear. If green is passion, which makes sense given Undyne's battle, and is technically still possible using solely the green flag's definition, and makes the idea of it resulting in victory FAR more plausible, then it's a core trait of determination, isn't it? Actually CARING about what it is you're doing?

Also, Malice didn't do what you said they did. Theirs was plausible as well, and very similar to mine. Sure, sure, you can be "determined" to hate, but how's that going to help you solve the problem, and why do you need hate to be determined? Under what circumstance would a lack of hate mean a lack of determination?

"Seriously. Determination is a physical power in Undertale, that's all there is known about it. And the dictionary definition doesn't apply, because the game defines it as the "sum" of the other 6 traits."

Undying being determined for everyone's lives in this dictionary manner gave her a DT boost. What do you know?

"So you cannot exactly take the dictionary definition and redefine it - use it to argue how each of those 6 traits relate to determination, when you're not only employing an entirely different definition, but also an arbitrarily ambiguous logical procedure that works for any firmly resolved trait, really."

It's not that they relate to DT. It's that they're each PARTS of DT. If you weren't brave, you'd cower in fear, instead of fighting on. Without patience, you'd probably just grow bored and quit. Without "kindness" (actually passion/caring in general), well, you don't care about it.. So, no way you can be determined about doing it, if you don't care anyway. Without perservearance, well, you'd give up when things got too hard. Without surefire accuracy ending the mayhem, the chaos, there is no firmness of purpose, there is merely chaos. You need order to have a firm purpose, to be determined ABOUT in the first place! And you need integrity, to have your moral standpoints to build your purposes FROM in the first place. And blue also naturally connects to red anyway, your own style is being yourself. Now, can anyone tell me what you need hate or solidarity for?

"Red might as well be DT, but at least stick to one consistent definition of it. If DT is a balanced mix, then keep treating it like one, find instances of this in the game, of Frisk displaying all 6 simultaneously, preferably at multiple points in time. Don't try to impose any other definition unto it."

But I've shown that this definition of DT in fact does require all 6 traits to be displayed in a way. Every time you fight on.. "Stay determined", you're displaying perserverance. Every time you proceed onwards, despite the warnings of Asgore killing those who progress, you're displaying bravery. Every time you go out of your way to spare OR kill a monster, you're demonstrating passion/green/"kindness". And when Malice responds, you might see an explanation for the rest.

"Human souls are used as a metric by the monsters. Soul power is determination. Therefore, humans have a set amount of DT in them. That is my proof. Although I'm sure you won't find it convincing."

Indeed, your flaw is your second premise. It's valid (if both premises are true, the conclusion follows) but not true (Premise 2 is false, and the conclusion is false)

"Furthermore: any apparent fluctuations can be explained by differing amounts of this DT being 'allocated' by the essence - the brain of the soul."

Why would a SOUL choose to get rid of DT?

"Alphys's terminology wasn't exactly correct here. There are no souls trapped within the barrier, I'm sure that's not what Toby meant."

LOL of course not. It's the power of the SOUL, obviously, not the SOUL itself-Just a power exclusive to it. Malice's point was simply that it was "Soul power", different from DT, nothing more.

"No, the barrier is a spell, kinda like monster attacks, except more permanent. So when speaking of soul power, we're really talking about the amount of magical power the barrier contains. 'Magical joules', or 'mana', if you wish."

Good so far.. But it's an exclusive power, that comes from a SOUL. After all, it's not like you can store up a big bunch bullets, aim them at the barrier, and fire away to destroy it!

"DT can also be translated into this metric, since Flowey used it to boost his own bodily magic."

...Um, no he didn't. He absorbed the SOULs. That includes the SOUL power within them.

"And we know the approximate ratio with monster souls: all of monsterkind > one human soul, although just barely."

With SOUL power? Yes, absolutely.

"Also, SLR isn't generated by DT, it is accessed through DT. And yet, it doesn't drain it away."

Nothing truly drains it away. When Undying "used" her DT to revive herself, she didn't lose any. This is where my "DT magic" idea came from-DT itself isn't being used up-A special kind of magic produced FROM DT is. Think of it as some kind of energy bar, that fills automatically, at a speed and capacity proportionate to the amount of DT you currently have, and THAT is what goes down when you do something that requires DT. But it replenishes almost instantly.

"I think the SLR is rather looking for the most determined being, and for that being, it unlocks itself. It doesn't actually need DT to be powered. At least, that is my interpretation."

It does, else we'd have a certain MONSTER with S/L/R during the gap between humans, and evidence seems to suggest there is no monster that had this ability. (If there was, it would most likely be Undyne, by the way. Because of her determined nature.)