Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27677820-20160131035943/@comment-27851652-20160223065248

1. When Asriel absorbed all the souls, he Wasn't in his real form. He was still basically flowey. After Asriel is saved, he was able to exist as his Real self for a time at the end of the game even though he didn't have any stolen souls or any soul inside him. And when Flowey first stole the 6 human souls, he was still a flower and not able to become Asriel. So it seems that whatever allowed Asriel to regain his true body and self was not Just a soul. It probably took being loved (yes I'm serious. The game centers around kindness, and if Determination is an actual force, then Love likely hold actual power in the Undertale universe) and being Saved to restore Asriel to normal.

2. Asriel had the power to do whatever he wanted, yet gave it up because it was the right thing to do....that's basically the Epitome of being a good person. He had literally absolute power, he could of done Anything he wanted, but he gave it all up and chose to live as a miserable flower, just because he cared for others....Is there a Single person in the world that would Actually do that if given the choice? We can never know because no one has ever had the power of god before. The vast majority of people who have any power abuse it and refuse to give it up and won't give up their own wealth to help others. Nearly all people in Asriel's situation would become evil and do whatever they wanted if given so much power, even if they were kind and generous all their life. So is everyone in the world a bad person? I mean, Asriel didn't just give up all the power in the universe, he did so even though it meant his life would be ruined and he would basically be dead or worse. And Asriel could have kept 1-2 of the billions of souls for himself so that he could keep his body, and Noone would have known, but he didn't because it was the right thing to do. Asriel gave up EVERYTHING. He gvae up his body, his happiness, his dignity, the ability to have arms or legs or his regualr body....That's about as selfless as it gets. How many people would give up everything they had to help others? How many people would die and give up their organs to help someone who needed them? A small percentage of the total populaion. So does that mean that everyone who Wouldn't basically die to help others are bad? That is a very high standard of morality that you are implying if you can consider Asriel to be a bad person, and one that probably none of us here can meet.

3. If you are drugged against your will, then are you truly yourself and in control of your actions? If you suffer from an illness that makes it so you can't control your body or mind, then how can you be held responsible for your actions when you couldn't control yourself? If you have a mental illness or neurological disease, then is it fair to judge your character based on what a disease made you do? That's basically what happened to Asriel. When he become Flowey, he was Not how he used to be. He Literally had a different mind, If someone changes your brain, then how can your actions be called you really are? If someone chops up your brain and makes you a comatose vegetable, then is that Who you are, is a drooling vegetable your real self? Not only was his brain and body changed, but he lost the ability to feel love, that's basically the same as having a neurolgial diease. He lost the ability to experience an emotion that is a key part of the human psyche. Humans biologically Need to experience love like they need food and air. Studeies have shown that human babies and children actually become sick and Die if they aren't given love, their bodies just shut down. How can you define someone based on what they did when they were Literally not themselves? It's like if someone loses their ability to feel empathy or fear, are they truly responsible for their actions when they lost a key mental function that everyone normally has?

4. If you are thrown into a horrible and rare situation, are your actions during that situation Completely define who you are? Why does how you act under extreme and unfair circumstances count as your "real" self, yet your choices for literally all the rest of your life aren't taken into account at all? Shouldn't everything you chose to do during a Normal life like everyone has be what defines how you Really are? It's like ignoring a lifetime of good deeds that a person has done, and then only judging their character by what they did in a Lord of the Flies situation. Such a judgement is unfair, doesn't make sense and is wrong.

5. If you could reset everything so that your actions had no consequence, then are bad things you do really wrong? It's basically the "Groundhog's Day" scenario. If you know everything will just reset, then do your actions truly matter? If you kill someone, but then it resets so it never happened and that person doesn't even remember what happened to them, then are they Actually getting hurt? This is a legit question, does hurting people Actually cause any harm if time resets so it never even happened? Besides that, would any of us resist doing whatever we wanted in such a situation? This is a popular scenario, and many people say that they would do bad things in such a circumstance. So, Asriel not only is a different person with a different mind and body, Flowey, he's also miserable and alone, And he is this situation where his actions have no lasting consequence. Such an existance is infinitely different to what his life was. Is it really fair to judge his actions in such a situation? Is is accurate in any way to say that those actions define his character? Not really. I mean, in truth, Asriel never actually hurt anyone. He did in other timelines, but in the story timeline, he hadn't hurt anyone (yet). So can we really try and hold against him the bad things he said he did in other timelines, when those things didn't happen in the story timeline?

6. Asriel stole the souls because he needed to in order to save himself from his hellish existance. He wanted to be saved from being a miserable flower, from suffering and not having his real body, etc. Its basically the equivelant of stealing food to avoid starvation or killing someone so that you could live. Wouldn't you do something wrong to save yourself if you had been turned into a fucking flower? Even if you think you wouldn't, could you stay controlled of yourself if you had to live that way for decades? Eventually you would probably give in.

7. The Entire plot of Undertale is you being attacked by monsters, yet accepting that those monsters aren't evil and seeing things from their point of view. Nearly every character in the game tries to murder and innocent child.....yet, everyone forgives and accepts the monsters as good and not evil. If Asriel is bad, then you have to acknowledge that Sans, Undyne, Papyrus, Asgore, and most of the character in the game are also Bad, based on that standard. Especially considering that all those character show that they are Fine with not killing Frisk, that they could pretty easily accept the alternative of letting Frisk live....yet they still were very quick to jump to murder. So, if you think that All the monster in the game are bad, then I admit that your argument under such a standard has some validity. But if you are fine with Undyne and Sans and Papyrus and think they aren't bad people, then you can't say that Asriel is bad.


 * You must admit that you and most of us would do similiar things if placed in Asriel's position. So, you must acknowledge that the majority of people are then also bad people. If you believe that then fine, but if don't think that's true, then you can't say Asriel is a bad person, because of the high standard of morality that such a claim sets.                                                                                                                          *Asriel honestly can't be held fully responsible for his actions due to such extreme circumstances. It's not fair to judge someone normally when they are put in such an Abnormal situation. It doesn't make sense to say that what they did only during an extremely intense, stressful, rare circumstance is how they Really are.                        *It's invalid to hold him wholly responsible for actions done when he was not in his own mind or body. It's like trying to hold one person responsible for the actions done by a different person, because Flowey is by all accounts a different being with a different body, brain, and personality.                                                                                           *Not only is Asriel Not a bad person, but he has proven with his actions to in fact be an extremely Good and selfless person. When Asriel was back to normal, he showed enormous sacrifice and selflessness, the likes of which honestly surpass anything done in the real world. Asriel wasn't beaten or forced to surrender, he willingly stopped after simply being shown kindness. He stopped being evil after being shown love and a better way. Asriel wasn't Just "sorry for 10 minutes." He had everything and all power, and made the choice on his own to stop do the right thing. Most bad people Don't stop being bad, Most people don't even feel bad when they hurt others. Yet Asriel chose to give up and chose to be good all on his own when nothing was forcing him to, and when doing so meant nothing but pain and loss for him. If you chose to stop doing harm and chose to be good, then isn't that the definition of being good? If you chose to be good and do the right thing, then that makes you a good person.                                                              *Asriel Is a good and kind person. The "real" Asriel didn't die a long time ago. The real Asriel showed with his actions that he was still there Even After EVERYTHING, Even After All The Terrible Things And Agony He Had To Go Through When He Was Only A Little Kid. Asriel is the same person he was before he died. Just like before how Asriel refused to fight back whn humans attacked him, Asriel once again had the power to destroy and dominate, and once again he chose to not use his power, to not hurt others, even though doing so would cause himself to disappear. He kept a tenderness and love in his heart, even after everything. Most adults couldn't be so selfless, yet he manages to even though he's only a child   :)