Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31619784-20170328162322/@comment-27701762-20170329164314

Anonymous User 03 wrote: I guess if Frisk is the one making the choice then the entire "control" issue is fixed. The "complete" control thing feels a bit like a cop out, though. I mean it's like, "I was in control for 10% of the time! Look at how much influence I have over you! You've never been in complete control, so face facts!" It also doesn't explain the "moments without player input" in the True Pacifist route either. I understand if you feel like the second explanation is a cop out. The point, though, is simply to find a way of explaining that, given that there is a discrepancy of the facts and the statement, is there a way of reading the statement so that it does not create the same discrepancy?

To provide another example: perhaps "Since when were you in control?" is rhetorical. Meaning that Chara is not literally saying, as you're suggesting, that Frisk/the player was never in any control. Rather, Chara is using the phrase to mean "this isn't your choice to make." Something like that hinted at if you complete the Genocide Route again, where selecting the "Do not" option gives the response "You made your choice long ago."

I feel like you misinterpeted my second question. My question wasn't "Chara clearly destroyed the universe! How is it our fault?" I understand, we went down the path that led to the destruction of the world. My point was, Chara cannot claim that we were not in control (as "Since when were you in control?" implies) and simeltaneously say that it was all our fault. I mean, they could, but there'll have to be some serious doublethink going on, and at least one of their statements will have to be false. The above sort of responds to this, but I think you're drawing a distinction without a difference. The idea that it is our "fault" is more about the consequences of our actions, rather than the suggestion that we literally executed the killing blow. Chara's says as much when you restart the game: "It was you who pushed everything to its edge. It was you who led the world to its destruction." These lines don't require that Frisk was the one who actually destroyed it.

It's a rather common element of storytelling to have someone face another character with something horrific and offer the statement "You did this," "This is your doing/fault," or something to that effect. The point, of course, in those cases is not to say that the character is the one who directly caused whatever happened, but that the consequences of the character's actions led to whatever happened. Ditto for Frisk destroying the world.

LV does have a clear in-universe explantion to it. Sans describes LV as "A way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt." He then goes on to say "The more you kill, the easier it becomes to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others. " That strongly implies LV is a mental thing, and not the protagonist actually getting more powerful.

As for the increase in damage, one of the books in the Libraby (sorry, I just love that joke), states that monsters are attuned to their SOUL, so their emotions affect their stats. The more determined they are to attack, the higher their attack. The more reluctant to fight, the lower their defence. It's why say, Undyne the Undying has higher stats than regular Undyne, despite being the same person. Or why a little human kid manages to defeat the king of all monsters. An increase in LV means you have more ill intent towards the monsters, so you deal more damage to them. So either Chara always had the capacity to destroy the world (which is too OP for me), Chara destroyed the world through emotional distance, or Sans is lying to our faces. I know that there is a canon worded explanation of what LV is, but the fact of the matter is that there are still basic stats that increase as LV increases. Those stat increases are also acknowledged within the game, since Chara brings them up as a number that increases.

The book in the Library is meant to provide some way to explaining how the stat increases operate with respect to the world, but at the end of the day the explanation is going to be insufficient, since Undertale is an RPG with leveling, and like any RPG with leveling, there is always the question of "why does beating up on bugs and dogs make my character stronger?" The Library explanation isn't going to be sufficient, since there are discrepancies in terms of how weapons affect ATK, how a monster loses defense because of how their opponent behaves, and perhaps most importantly, how Frisk can deliver huge damage numbers in boss fights, but normal damage numbers in regular encounters. The Library book's explanation should be taken with a bit of salt as a complete universal explanation of what's going on. Particularly, again, in relation to the fact that there is an acknowledged stat increase to the character themself.

As for the final question, why does Frisk killing all the monsters lead Chara to the extinction of all life everywhere? I'm not gonna say "Aliens; why do they die too?", but look at it this way. If they destroyed the world through SOUL power or DETERMINATION or something (because LV makes no sense at this point), does that mean Chara was somehow able to "override", ahem, all of humanity' s determination and souls?!  Why? That doesn't seem too fair. Determination is already vague and whatnot; like, the most determined being in the underground gets the power to save and manipulate time everywhere. Is that part of the reason why? Is it all a plot hole? Is Toby Fox just messing with us? Is this longer than anything I wrote for English class? To the last question, probably. As for the others, I have no idea :P This is where the attempt to find a scientific explanation for the game's actions gets out of hand. Why does the entire world or universe get destroyed because Frisk had 20 LV? It just does. Perhaps 20 LV is of equal or greater power to 6 or 7 human souls, which presumably grants the power to reshape the universe (where it is also suggested that the power of souls is not simply additive across individuals, but only has impact when centralized in a single being). Perhaps there is something special about the Underground that amplifies innate power (see for example the nature of saving and loading). There are a bunch of ways to try and make it make sense, but it's a world filled with monsters, magic, and the ability to manipulate time itself. This clearly isn't going to operate by a standard set of scientific principles that can be studied and verified.