Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180708205248

"I also think its a personality quiz:regards which tactics a monster use, they get a flag that correspond to a trait and the tactics they used to win.But if the tactics used are outside of the ones that corresponds to one of the 6 traits, they get the red flag."

So far, so good.

"But if the narrator is the one behind the messages of the flags and that Frisk "develop their personality"(as a game not for real after all those tests should not be taken seriously but as part of the fun)by following their feelings during this game, then the whole ball game was about Frisk "developing their own personality"for the narrator, that's why they say "ball game"by using red text. But for the ball game's perspective,Frisk only get the red flag because they used tactics that doesn't corresponds to one of the 6 traits"

Except Chara wouldn't even have a reason to give these texts when you act on the flag if it didn't come from the flag. Where did they get that from?

"In genocide, the red text reflects Chara's strong feelings about something such as the family photo, the sweater because now they act like a "real person", perhaps because in this run they don't want to hide their identity because Frisk is "their best friend"because you have proven to them that Asriel betrayed them. You may point out the fact that they say "I unlocked the chains"in red so that it means they doesn't use the red text to reflect their strong feelings but don't forget that those chains are the last obstacle that prevent Chara to kill the rest of their family(they dont know about Sans's fight here), so it logical why they strongly feel about this obstacle because by unlocking the chains themself they emotionally prepare to kill the rest of their family."

Well, that IS a good explanation.

"So in this case it doesn't make sence for them to use red text for "the hole"because why would they strongly feel about a hole?"

Because they fell down one, and met the monsters..?

"Yes but if they use different colors for different traits in the ball game, that means they already know how the game work. Plus chances are that they already know the ball game from their life in the underground and know what red trait means. Plus the hole is in part of the game, if its not the main part"

So.. Where did the monsters get the idea to make the ball game and its traits THAT LONG AGO?

"I don't think that the flags do it because in this case the narrator would say "there's something written here.. "as they always do in the game."

Not always. When you read the history books, it just says you turned to a random page. They also don't give this message when reading the lab entries.

"Plus the flags completely lack of any single indication of a writing."

They're also the smallest sprites that could have writing in the game! By far!

"Even so the sprites are small there's always an indication of a writing, Alphys's notes in the lab or Asgore's note its a proof"

Both of those notes have larger sprites than the flag (pole doesn't count, writing's not there.)

"To be determined, you must be brave, so you don't run away in fear. You need to perservere to the end. You need to be patient, and be willing to wait as long as it takes. You need care and concern for your goal, as without a passion, you cannot have determination. And so on."

"To be determined....well you have to be determined.. i mean real world's determination means "a strong will to achieve a goal". Frisk don't need kindness or patience etc.. to have a strong will to achieve a goal, just be determined"

They have to keep that will, though. And that requires patience, perserveance, and bravery, depending on the situations. It also requires passion, which "care and concern" could also mean. Another definition is "firmness of purpose", which requires order, the opposite of chaos, and the yellow trait is defined as "surefire accuracy brought an end to the mayhem of BALL". Mayhem means either violent desctruction or chaos. So, we have a connection there. And finally, integrity. This is a connection by the red flag itself-You continue to be yourself. The blue flag defines integrity as "your original style pulled you through." That's being yourself. So, the red trait, determination, is a combination of the other six.

"Determination in the world of Undertale is the" will to live to overcome death", so to have this, Frisk doesn't need any kindness, bravery(which honestly oppose the notion of the "will to live on"because we wants to overcome death because of fear which oppose bravery) just to "want to overcome death. So in this case and in previous case your argument doesn't make sense"

It's also the resolve to change fate, which DOES require a kind of bravery.

"Plus real world's determination is literally derives from perseverance, because perseverant people are perseverant because they have a strong will to achieve their goal. So if anything,determination is related to perseverence's hosts"

Yes, there is a relation there

"Once again I think Frisk have this power because of Chara's determination."

Hmm.. Alright, we'll leave it to THAT part of the discussion. That's what will push this section forward.

"Perhaps Chara really have suicidal issues now given the consequences of their filled plan...which is suggested by the fact that they were suicidal in life"I would follow your footsteps I would erase my self from existence",and that they decided to use buttercups to die because of how they felt guilty about Asgore poisoning (they seems to be someone who really feel guilty about their own mistakes)but that Asriel very encouraged them to live on(given that he assumes Chara would be surprised knowing he is suicidal himself), so they have this big amount of determination because it would cause pain to Asriel if they die, so they try to erase all the idea of suicide thanks to Asriel.In the genocide run, its a whole different history, , they know that the plan failed because of Asriel and given that they really want to achieve your common goal and that monsters would not truly give you any mercy(because you have proven the kill or be killed rule), so they still really determined.When they are killed its Asgore's words that keep them determined."

Yes, that's good evidence, and I don't believe they kill just because they like killing. I used that as a counterpoint to you saying we should only use what the game explicitly says somewhere. But, to keep my point going, how does that prove that Chara HAS to not be killing just to kill again?

"Pretty sure that Frisk determination itself is pretty weak, after all why would they have so much determination because of a lab or a lamp... Pretty ridiculous things fills Frisk with determination, dont think that those things would give them too much willigness to live."

It's the SAVE points that do this. The narration is being goofy again.

"They doesn't seems to be that attached to life because those reasons are very lower comparing to Chara's. Seriously Toby why did you make a so depressing characters, who are also kids?"

.*insert annoying dog bark, possibly with a troll face here*

"And I don't think that time power need time to travel because when Frisk load or recept they affect the whole underground immediately, which is by the way veery big as showed by all the buildings in the ruins, new home,and the Snowdin's forest."

The power's effect isn't the power itself. The power just sends everyone back to the SAVE file. But, the file itself only exists within the Underground, to the point where the room just after throne room is labeled "The End". It would take some time for the range of land affected by the SAVE powers, by adding them to the file, to expand. "Well the genocide run can be gave up by any time by failing to kill any monster or by giving up during Sans or Undyne's battle or by resisting. So in this case Frisk didnt have that much real world's determination in the genocide run either"

...I was talking about hope. Hope wasn't implied in genocide. As for genocide, if you DON'T give up, you ARE determined, as Sans says. And isn't the Genocide Route the run where you don't give up? If you do, that's called the Neutral Route. Even still, you still have the will to live, and the resolve to change fate. You want to find a way NOT to get killed by Sans. (Sans actually hints at this solution though when you accept his "mercy". "If we're really friends, you won't come back!"-Sans)

"1.When you enter in Asgore's room in neutral run, the white barrier is here"

It's VISIBLE.

"2.When the barrier is destroyed in the pacifist run... the barrier is no longer here obviously. So Frisk can move freely in this room and by crossing the place where the barrier was present, they get  a new place and  a purple door which is right in front of them"

We don't see the room wher the Barrier was present at all. We get the purple door by going through the same door as the door to Asgore's room. So either they're the same room, meaning this ISN'T a new place, or they're different, meaning we never get to explore Asgore's room after the Barrier shatters. (Or, more likely, we do, but the game skips that, seeing as we were there before.)

Besides, what's that door doing there if it's on the other side of the Barrier? Who built it?

"3.Croosing this door lead to the surface"

We only know the surface is beyond the door, not directly next to it. In fact, the lack of a light source there proves it's NOT directly next to the door. Remember, we reach the Surface at either sunrise or sunset-We should see that light shining through the door, but we don't.

"4.After Omega's Flowey fight in neutral end, you are no longer in the place when there was the barrier, Asgore's room"

Correct.

"5.The "new place"Frisk get in the neutral end is the place you can get when the barrier is destroyed in the pacifist run, more precisely the  place Frisk can get in the pacifist run when they cross the place where the barrier was present(Asgore's room)"

What's to say Asgore's room isn't FURTHER away from this purple door? 6 and 7 I have the same comment to. And I don't see an 8.

"9.So Frisk get the surface, which lead to the "game's end". After all, the game was about Frisk returning on the surface"

Yes, that is why the game ends there. In Neutral, getting trapped in the Barrier also counts as an end, but a bad end. Hence the lack of credits.

"In conclusion during Photoshop Flowey fight, both Frisk and Flowey cross the barrier. Which is not shown during the fight because were were "on battle interface", most likely Flowey cross it because he had the 6 souls back then and Frisk because of Chara's essence"

They were sent BACKWARDS.

"the white wall is the barrier as Asgore says so, so what is out of it is no longer the barrier (as I showed in my previous points). Or I don't understand to what you make allusion to..."

The invisible wall is what I allded to, not the white one.

"Or like a human soul(as humans naturally possess more determination than the monsters)  and a strong human essence"

SOUL power locks the barrier, not essence.

"Flowey literally says that what make Chara stronger is themself and their "stolen "soul "Even more powerful THAN YOU and your stolen soul".(instead of just "your stolen soul") Which Indicate that Chara essence make Frisk soul stronger. "

If anything, it makes CHARA more powerful. Chara's power would come from the stolen SOUL. "And" either means they're completely separate like that, or the power came FROM the SOUL, at most-Not that the power BECAME a PART of the SOUL.

"The other humans had enough determination, after all they had the recept power. "Chara's essence was likely "attracted "by Frisk soul (that's why they were attached to Frisk's soul at first place) because it had the same color their soul had when they were alive(proven by their coffin) and Frisk's determination awoke this essence. So both played a role on Chara awaking .Others humans didn't attracted their essence because they didn't have the same soul color Chara had"

If red just meant different than the rest, that should mean nothing, as every red-soul would be just as diferent from each other as yellow is to orange.

"Flowey literally says that he come back to life not because of the injected determination(you know the determination of the humans souls) but because of his own fear of death."

That IS the will to live.

"And if this injected determination really give him any will to live, i doubt he would ever think of "erasing himself from existence"."

Asgore had that thought, an: he had determination. You suggest Chara had this thought when they had deteemination. What's different now?

"Which means that soulless beings have their own determination, independent of the determination of their "host". Which means that Chara can have determination independently of Frisk's one.The one they use to revive themself and Frisk"

They give us a memory, so that WE may revive ourselves.

"Dude if Chara didn't have any "willingness to live on"(#determiantion) why would they ever want Frisk to stay alive?? They don't want to die?? Doesn't that means they have their own determination?"

They have OUR determination.

"Plus why would a message addressed to an unknown person revive Frisk? Its more logically to say that Frisk revive after hearing this message because Chara revive them"

Yet they couldn't revive Chasriel?

"Wow wow I only use the "its me Chara"to proove that Chara is inside of Frisk not flying around"

Yeah, the game goes deeper than that..

"And by the way they say "Its me Chara"firstly in Toriel's house(check it yourself)"

...So they do.. Chara WAS there.. I wonder, though, why they say it's you when it's not currently Genocide, and them if it is..

"And the whole gaining physical form its not supported by the game and what Frisk see at the end of the genocide run its likely a projection of Chara, they are likely not really physically present."

Where did you get THAT conclusion?

"That's why they face Frisk at the second genocide when they have Frisk soul while given how souls work in Undertale(consciousness is in souls), they would not adress to Frisk because they're an empty body now and would directly address to Frisk'soul."

Consciousness is in ESSENCE, not SOULs. That's why Asriel is Flowey.

"I KNOW that the player control Frisk(though indirectly the player also control Chara because Frisk and Chara share the same body... yeah the whole thing its really complicating..... though in Chara's perspective Frisk is in control given that they always use "you"when you choose to do something, which always refers to Frisk"Still just you Frisk", so in short the player control both of them but from the two protagonists's perspective, Frisk is the one in control..... Yeah its complicating.... )"

But, it should be a combination of the two in control, as Chasriel demonstrated. Why isn't it?

"So if Chara want to keep themself alive then they have a "will to live "(determination). So see the paradox of your reasoning?"

They do. It's our will. Like they share our stats, they share our determination.

"As I suggested, Frisk develop this power when they fell because of Chara's essenc.Its also interesting to notice that their power ONLY came when they fell on Chara's grave but not when they were about to fall(they were in fact already in the underground when they were about to fall) that why when you recept you return to specifically in this place(Chara's grave)."

It would be while they were falling, and already went down the hole, not just before then. And we never see that in-game at all:Chara's the child in the intro. Therefore, us falling was likely skipped by the game.

"For others fallen children, nothing implies that they developed their recept power immediately when they fell. Its more seems like they firstly developed their power when Toriel explained that the underground was full of monsters who want to fight them(she explains very early that the underground is full of monsters who will attack humans, more precisely :right before dummy fight)"

And then gives them care and safety against those monsters at HOME, and shows how easy it is to resolve a conflict.

"Well no, the second one doesn't explain another property at all. Here what it says "Try as you might YOU CONTINUE to be yourself", the second flag only says that by using the tactics that corresponds to themslef(since those tactics allows them to get the red flag, the one that correspond to them), they "continue to be yourself", which is logical."

Yes, you use what corresponds to yourself. You be yourself. Which matches what we determined about the red trait-You saying red means you're original, not in the other six, and me saying a combination of the six, which would include integrity.

"Something so obvious wouldn't replace the first message about red trait property unless as I suggested there's no need as this first flag indicated that Frisk developed their own personality during their first try."

...No, it wouldn't replace the first flag unless it WAS needed. There had to a REASON, and that reason being that it tells the red trait works.

"The second message only says that "Frisk continue to be themself", something they already were at the first try"

Yes. But the first flag did not tell us that piece of info. The second flag does, and that tells us this is an aspect of the red trait.

"There's not any problem at all. Integrity means "to have an ORIGINAL style"but red soul hosts can have a similar personality while integrity's hosts can't, they can only have an original personality, each integrity's hosts personality differ from each other. I guess there's also the "always be honest state"that counts for integrity soul because its real world 's definition for "integrity ", something that not count for red soul's hosts(As integrity is related to have an original style I believe that integrity's fallen human was a boy who liked  ballet and who did not hide it)."

This would apply to red as well, though, wouldn't it?