Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20170822125328

2)It wears off eventually. He turns back into Flowey after the ending. There has to be something of that power he has remaining, not the SOULS, but the energy he still had from the SOULs, that eventually ran out, turning Asriel back into Flowey.

When does the game tell us it's the "developer's room"? And what if it's just that? A developer's room? The game's in the future, this is Toby, but it's one of Toby's future projects.

3.3)Why would it need to be SAVED first, if Chara already had that data? Why is the file empty if Chara's data was already on it?

3.5)It doesn't need to be! We don't see Chara's HUD, so we don't see them pressing FIGHT and hitting the center. It saves a few lines of code to just set the damage equal to (10^234)-1.

Chara's LV is more than just LV20. Try LV9999. =)

I actually consider Sans dying to be real. Our LV increases, which can only happen after a kill. Sans probably has some determination like Undyne, being why he didn't die right away.. Like Undyne.

All humans possess this ability. Humans can also see each others' attacks, as shown by us seeing Chara's, and thus can dodge each other. There's a reason why not a single SOUL was taken during the war of humans and monsters. They couldn't dodge any of us, so we could wipe them out quickly if they tried. :3 If SAVing and LOADing is a thing on the Surface (it's have to be separate from the Underground), that could be another explanation.

3.6)Us controlling Frisk isn't canon. We're roleplaying Frisk. Do we refuse to care about characters we create in tabletop RPGs just because we control them? No, because canonically, they're a character of their own, and you don't physically exist. Same thing here. Yes, we don't have any HUD, but we also don't have the magical ability to SAVE and LOAD. The games takes those game mechanics that would normally just prove that it's a game, and take away from the experience, into an actual part of the world's story and laws, like we see with Sans. Also, Sans explcitly says that his plan is to make it so it's never your turn. Explain that. :3

There's still so much of the game we still need to figure out. We're all theorizing this game that's not real-All we all wasting our time? Should we just abandon this wiki on the grounds that it's just a game? Of course not! We can figure out the story that Toby's giving to us by analysing the mechanics of the world.

Sans' special attack confirms that yes it is, so I'm going with that. If Sans' special attack, Lemon Bread moving the box, and Asgore destroying the MERCY never happened, I would also hold the view that the HUD is non-canon. But they do exist, and serve as proof of the HUD's existence as more than just a non-canon game mechanic. SAVing and LOADing are game mechanics that are a part of the story, so why not the HUD too?

3.7)So they can somehow see Frisk pressing the "CHECK" button? Monsters can see the HUD? That poses a serious problem, why don't they take note of this ability and actually dodge attacks?

4.1)Quite a nice spot there actually! Indeed, I made the comparison, and they do match in snow height! They also match in angle too, which is probably the real reason why there's less snow there, as they're at an angle, unlike the straight buildings. It seems teleprotation's not needed to explain this, though it still serves as a plausible explanation since Sans has this ability. However, "glitched duplication" poses a problem. Why doesn't Sans use this to duplicate his ketchup? (We'll be going off the possibility that this kind of duplication is just a law of that world like the HUD, since Sans directly using the code and the code being canon poses a bunch of other problems that we've gone over)

4.2)Perhaps so. Now, let us go to the Asriel ending using said explanation. Here, Asriel asborbs the SOULs of everyone, so we'd keep playing with him. So we wouldn't get our happy ending. But here, there was nobody dead, no SOUL for Frisk to absorb. Therefore, it would be easy to realize Frisk wouldn't leave unless Asriel broke the barrier. And the happy ending would involve everybody being satisfied. Asriel, you're somebody too! And directly after the battle, if we go all the way back to the Ruins to be with Asriel, he asks us to just leave him and move on to the Surface, the very thing he didn't want us to do before.

4.6)"So, this means that all 4 lines reference your repeated action of not being capable of avoiding the bullets, that are all coming from the same direction." Exactly, this is my point. She wanted it to be fair, she wanted us to actually know how to use a spear.

"And no, "not caring" does NOT mean that she thinks you know how to handle a spear. That's a logical fallacy. It menas that she simply doesn't care whether you know how to handle it or not. I think that's obvious, no?" I actually agree. I was saying that she was TALKING about you knowing how to use the spear, not that she said you already did! She just doesn't care about that fairness anymore! But that means the whole thing was referencing trying to teach you about the mechanics of the spear, including it being a fair fight, because, once again, if you don't know how to use the spear, it's practically useless. She gave up after turn 4 though.

"Now, we know that she wanted to make the fight fair. And we know that that refers to her giving you the spear and nothing else, since the only other option - unable to escape, doesn't really seem that fair towards you." I have a third option-Trying to teach you how to USE the spear. That's what she gave up doing after turn four, after all, and she said she didn't care about it being fair anymore on said turn. But she doesn't take away your spear! Therefore, it's a reference to her trying, and now no longer caring about, getting you to learn the ways of blocking with the shield..

"The reason you can't run away while green is because of the said intensity of the bullets. Genius." Turn 1 isn't exactly "intense". The reason why you can't run away while green is because you cannot MOVE while green, and running away requires you to, well, MOVE off-screen.

"This is another thing I want you to realize: Programming limitations shouldn't limit your fantasy and logic." It's no programming limitation. One could easily program in 8 directions. Someone actually made a fan-made Undyne Ultra battle where diagonal attacks were fired when you were green. The solution to not get hit? Well, let's say it was up-right. You'd start facing either up or right, then quickly switch to the other as you're about to get hit-The shield would be hit by the attack as it's moving, facing up-right. There are clever ways to do things like this, so calling it some programming limitation doesn't really work out. Bullets are fired in cardinal directions to make it more fair for you. She COULD fire bullets diagonally during a green SOUL mode (I mean, she does it in a red SOUL mode) but she doesn't seem to consider that fair, probably because it'd mean she'd have to teach you about moving your shield just as an attack is coming, being the only way to dodge said attack.

4.10)If the war really happened during the rise of the Roman Empire, it probably happened around 200BC. Before the Julian calendar. Besides, humans have made new calendars, why couldn't monsters have done something similar? It's way more probable that they made a new calendar. If each human fell in a random century within 2000 years. there'd be a 1 in 20^7 chance that they'd all fall in the same century. That's 1 in 1.28 billion. But, that's not how it works, the humans falling isn't something that's chosen in a random century, each CENTURY is randomly given the number of times a human falls! So, what's the probably of an event not happening at all for 19 rounds, and then happening 8 times in round 20.. Completely at random? ...I have no idea how to simulate such a test, do you? Either way, it's way more likely that monsters changed their calendar.

4.11)Flowey wasn't aware of the human until after they first met. *friendliness pellet wink*

4.11.1)Oh, hard mode eh? Well, let's analyze what's going on. The fact that you named the first fallen child Frisk must be significant, since that's what triggers hard mode. You see Frisk is the eighth fallen child, and the current protagonist. And you named Chara that. Here in hard mode, Chara IS Frisk-They are one and the same. And Toby's probably the narrator, none of the evidence of NarraChara seems to exist in Hard Mode. Now, if Frisk is Chara, yet new to the Underground, that means that Chara never fell and met Asriel in the Hard Mode timeline. And indeed, we don't see the memories of Asriel within said mode. If Chara never fell, the monsters never learned that humans can sometimes be nice. They continue to fear the humans, and soon, the six humans fall. They all attempt to kill the monsters, and Asgore is still declaring war. He expands the cities, to give the monsters more room, but never actually closes off the RUINS because, once again, the "fearing the monsters no longer" part didn't happen. Therefore, strong monsters like Final Froggit can exist within the Ruins. Toriel rules over and guards this first area, being where the humans first fall, similar to how there's always someone guarding each area of the Underground. Also means an extra monster eats some candy. The fact that Asriel is still Flowey even though Chara fell can only mean one thing:Asriel was murdered. Probably by a human. (DUN DUN DUN!!!!!)

Now, you, Frisk, have fallen down for the first time. Toriel gives you Snail Pie instead of Cinnamon Pie because she never learned about the goodness of Cinnamon Pie from Chara, as.. Chara never fell. We don't know why she isn't fighting you right away.. Maybe she knows you'll try to leave, and is trying to make the fight be unexpected? Maybe she's just trying to protect the rest of the Underground from you, thinking if she takes care of you, you won't leave? That perhaps she, like Papyrus, still believes you can be good if you try? During the actual fight, she no longer purposefully misses you, so she really is trying to kill you here. She knows she must protect the rest of the underground from you, after what happened to Asriel. So, you beat her, and well.. She doesn't die. Why is this? My answer:Determination. Remember, she was TRYING to kill you here, she wasn't swayed by emotions this time, and she has a SOMEWHAT good motive (A human literally killed her son, who posed no danger, as he wasn't in his Hyperdeath from) to protect the rest of the Underground like you. Therefore, like Undyne, she survives. One could also say it was similar to SANS surviving.

I already explained Asriel's Hyperdeath form-What power he had left to maintain his form for as long as he did, he could have used to restore his Hyperdeath form for a little while as well. He didn't turn back to Flowey instantly after releasing the SOULS, after all. The credits battle? Well, I'll let Asriel do the talking here. "You REALLY thought it was over"? Asriel was playing one last game with you. Remember, you can continue instead of True Reset after a True Pacifist Ending to try that game again without taking away everyone's happy ending. And yes, I agree that the dog is Toby. But remember, the game happens in the future. Toby's probably going to be working on more games in the future, and it is one of THOSE games that we see in the developer's room. (Where did you even get that name from? The game never tells us the name. Are you looking at file names? That's not the actual gameplay! Frisk's sprite names contain "main_chara", and we all know Frisk isn't Chara outside of Hard Mode!)

4.11.2)The game has acknolwedged several times that even its own mechanics are a part of the world. SAVing is part of it, LOADing is part of it, even closing your game during Omega Flowey's fight has a reasonable explanation (you ran away) The game's kickstarter flat-out mentions this as one of the features. "Use the format of a video game to tell the story: traditional fourth-wall breaking tropes such as "SAVING," "EXP," and "LV" are an intergrated part of the game's world." Game mechanics are canon. The entire game is one integrated part of the world, and contains clues to the rest of the world.

4.11.3)He spent MORE than 3 years doing both of those things. By the time the demo was made, Frisk and Chara being separate (maybe not Frisk's name) was already decided, and so were most of the main characters. However, some parts of the story still weren't decided, as you were at one point going to be able to date a robot (probably Mettaton) Also, we weren't just theorizing the whole time, we had to find out all the secrets first, and try and figure out what they mean. Toby already knew both of these things, as he was the one who put those secrets in. *wink*

4.11.4)Well then.. It seems the example you showed doesn't really work. :3 How about we return to Einstein vs Newton, the example I originally used?

4.13)Asgore beating Undyne has no meaning here. We can beat Undyne too. That doesn't make him stronger than us. If we COULDN'T beat Undyne, THEN you could say we shouldn't be able to beat Asgore. Remember, it would take the power of nearly every monster SOUL just to equal that of one human. Plus, we supposedly have the power to just continue restarting until we win. By all logic, all seven humans should be able to beat Asgore, if they all had SAVE and LOAD capabilities.

4.13.1)Both now, and with the other humans, Asgore wanted to lose. If he won, monsters would break the barrier and start another war.. And lose. As for why he didn't let us spare him, here you go. Undyne would notice that Asgore let that human stick around?! Monsters begin to question the validity of Asgore saying to kill humans who fall. A revolution happens, and Asgore is overthrown. And guess who the monsters look to for hope? Undyne.. Undyne becomes the empress this way. And then she kills the next human, and declares war. And loses. Exactly what Asgore wanted to prevent. But, even so, Asgore will not hesitate to try and take your SOUL if you die to him, though your determination will not let that happen. And as Toriel pointed out, Asgore was like that for ALL of the humans, not just us. If anything, this is a further reason that Asgore should have lost. Also, what about the second human? Was Sans even around back then? No, because this would be before Toriel left. So Asgore wouldn't have Sans' knowledge of the HUD from human 2. Therefore, he still would have lost to the first human meeting him.

5)Yes, they were both quotes Chara made. Chara though you said both of them. But even if you only said one of these things (The "why are you even alive?" heckle), Chara is still incorrect, as you didn't also say the other one. Therefore, Chara is still proven wrong. "What, you didn't say that"? No, we didn't call the monster ugly. You were right about the second one though, Chara. :3

5.1)Snowdrake's mother is completely deformed, and we don't know how it's like being an Amalgamte.. Poor thing.. She could be in even worse condition than Asgore was when Chara gave him buttercups.. Just LOOK at her. How is she even still alive in this condition..? We have a reason to cry at that. This was a natural assumption that Chara could have made.

6)That alone doesn't mean only Frisk has enough DT. And yes, monsters have DT, but not ENOUGH DT. But six humans fell before Chara, and also had DT. They weren't able to use their determination to wake Chara up, though. Because they didn't have as much as we did. In fact, our determination REALLY starts to show itself during the Asriel fight. Even after Floeey absorbed every SOUL in the Underground, including six human ones, he STILL needs to defeat you in order to reset the timeline. You STILL somehow have control of the timeline instead of Asriel. Frisk really is the most determined human that fell.. All because of that red trait.