Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-27136653-20190212203218

''That literally means nothing. He has no reason to. There's no shock, there's no disbelief, there's nothing that would spur him to do that.''

Just like any other time he comments on absolutely pointless stuff? Like, repeatedly doing the same dumb thing he didn't want us to do? This isn't all that different. In fact, it's more significant, since it's new, and it gave him hope. He did transform into Asriel after all. That was the shock, and the disbelief would have come from us denying him this... as well as doing it so easily at the same time too. Since the build up and the atmosphere implied he thought he had the control. That's what I believe Toby was going for here. If you're denying this just to remove the otherwise present plot hole, then, well, you might perhaps be a bit delusional, or just in poor understanding of Toby's vision in general. The plot isn't what Toby focused on as much as the feels.

If we weren't meant to do it, then what would prevent us from doing so in the OF Fight would have been put in place.

Properly programmed mechanics. Toby forgot to do that here. Or maybe he didn't know how to. Or maybe he did but shrugged it off due to assuming that no one would ever think that being able to forcibly quit the game when it logically should be on a 2-second autosave could be canon.

Or it could just be that detatched parts of a monster don't wither to dust.

I mean, they should after the monster dies, no? The thing keeping them from dusting should be the energy of the soul.

''And what exactly is thus supposed to achieve? The code has no basis in ththe world itself, so unless the game literally mentions and hints and abuses it, then it's to be ignored.''

By adhering so strictly to the canon, you're basically gonna replicate all the if-else statements within the code. It should be our prime goal to REMOVE exceptions and asterists from our theories!

It falls in line with Determination's abilities, and the other kids are irreversibly dead - likely due to the characteristics and limitations of their traits.

All of that has alternative explanations to it though. That's the crux of these theories. All theories, more or less.

The ability itself does have limits, as shown by the Asriel Fight, so they aren't Mary Sues.

Well, how about the argument that the DT content of Frisk's soul spiked to well above 700%? Oh wait, that's assuming that DT is SP AND that there's no plot hole in Asriel's battle. My bad. This was the original reason why I said your explanations turn Frisk into a Mary Sue. I guess that's gone. If you wanna turn Asriel into a big doodoo head for not realizing that he's not actually in control, I guess...

''I literally don't get how that can be simplified any more than it already is. SOUL Power is the power of the SOUL as a whole, the entire SOUL, not a part of it, the entire thing!''

But the soul is surely made up of something, right? For one, there's DT inside it. Anything else?

''You mean what THA and I have been doing? No, you've done that bery sparringly, almost nonexistently.''

You were arguing how it's not a simulation, but you weren't trying to reexplain the meta. I was arguing that it's not a simulation, and that the meta isn't real, that a more "realistic" explanation exists for it. I was only ever arguing pro-simulation whenever you insisted that the meta is real and shouldn't be changed.

Meta exists = simulation.

No simulation = meta cannot exist (e.g. turns aren't real).

Somehow, you dislike both of those choices.

Good thing neither THA nor I accept the meta, and I haven't remotely said anything like what these couple sentences imply.

To clarify, by meta, I mean the things which seem too absurd to be "natural" and "fluid". Such as turn and button mechanics.

Except the grammer does work exactly the same as ours, so the plaques are still viable sources of logical conclusions.

They were written a looooooong time ago tho! See, there's always a catch.

And in all honesty, both explanations of the plaques work. You could interpret strength and power that they talked about as the same thing, due to these two synonyms being used in the same context, and then connect power to soul power due to its correlation with DT, or you could say that strength and power aren't the same and assign a different meaning to each one. I merely took the simpler approach.

And the correlation is real:

Humans: lots of DT, monsters: not even enough to make their souls persist.

Humans: lots of SP, monsters: a fraction of a single human soul.

It doesn't have to mean anything. That's why I'm calling it a correlation. But then again, I am using Occam's razor on this, so...

Except he had it when he was Omega Flowey

Eh? There's no proof that OF could reset, he didn't demonstrate the ability. So, since Asriel couldn't, I'm arguing that OF couldn't either.

We still have it, so really it's not.

Yes, that's the definition of a plot hole. When the story doesn't align with the lore. We have it, but we shouldn't. That's my entire point.

Didn't I make it abundantly clear NOT to try and get into Toby's head, or act like you get what he's thinking, when on this thread?

Sometimes it's necessary. I won't just assume that everything is canon and everything is exactly the way Toby wanted it to be. Especially if he fixes sprite glitches through glass tiles. It's my entire point, that you're trying to explain the game in its entirety, but you always ignore the flaws, you're eating the soup with the fly still in it. No, it's not a "delicate ornament". The way I understand Toby, is that he doesn't take himself nor his game(s) particularly seriously. So I'm not expecting such a rigid plot. Instead, I'm trying to balance canon info with logic, to make rational conclusions, instead of conclusions which foolishly try to explain everything at the same time without a flaw.

Tell me, are you doing this solely for fun, or do you actually believe that this is what Toby "intended" us to do?

Oh, so we're calling the game itself a headcanon now?

Not the game, the player.

Except the Player is a canon separate entity from Frisk.

And how do you intend to prove this?

''It's an analogy. That the traits are themselves made up of subsets that aren't their own trait, but make up the bigger trait set, is what I was saying he meant.''

So... the traits aren't fundamental substances?