Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-28974149-20180305043309/@comment-32182236-20180325142050

"Matpat made it clear in his Gaster theory video that he didn't actually think that was true. It's also clear that this is why he puts that "It's just a theory. A GAME THEORY" disclaimer at the end."

But some actually believed the theory, and truly believe that Sans is Ness. Also, theories are supposed to be things that could plausibly be true. It's called a theory, not an assertion.

"Again, What I'm saying is adding that second sentance is a little suspicious and probably a reverse psycological bait. "Don't think about cats." *thinks about cats*"

Mentioning cats in the first place is what makes us think of them. Not specifically the fact we were told not to. Also, yes, it is suspicious. Because it. Is. A. LIE!

"It says KILLING is unnecessary. Actually, we never kill Asgore, we take his HP down to the point where he surrenders and then mercy him, it's Flowey that finishes the job. This is a strategy a Froggit tells us can work and counts as Mercy. We totally befriend Asgore at the end of his fight and through the true pacifist end it's really easy considering he prefers befriending people."

We won't befriend Asgore, he's either killed by Flowey or he kills himself. In the TP ending, Toriel sends Asgore away with a fireball, and we don't converse with him for the rest of the game, except twice:Once to explain what anime is, and the second.. To Either be or not be the ambassador.

"It can't be late because there is no release date for it."

True.. I did say it was the first. I just misunderstood what YOUR point of view was.

"It was during his experiments. We know this for a fact because of the Gaster Followeds. It was about determination, as Entry 17 reveals."

"Yes but that is ALL we know, there must be more to it."

Well, we can figure out more by theorizing. We know the ultimate downfall was that he got shattered across time and space. For that to be even possible, he was experimenting on tiem travel as well. What's the one thing we know that's time travel throug determination? Save/Load/Reset. THIS is what his experiment was ACTUALLY about.

"It's interesting how Gaster calls out to "You two." as he shatters across time in space (THE SHADOWS CUTTING DEEPER *slice*) during his final message, similar to how one sees loved ones as they die."

Just because MatPat says it doesn't make it true. The "Shadows cutting deeper" could be the shadows cutting deeper through the timelines, through light. Right after that reveals.. Negative photons? Anti-photons? He was experimenting with negative matter?! (It's a real thing. Not to be confused with anti-matter. And considering that you'd need negative matter to make a wormhole.. Him doing this actually makes sense.) There is no evidence that this is his demise. It's just a normal mad scientist entry. After all, he says the experiment is very very interesting.. But, if we was being shattered, at this moment, he'd know he'd never get the results. Plus, while it exolains the mysterious origins of the brothers, it FAILS to explain why nobody but the followers remember Gaster. My theory explains both simultaneously-Sans and Papyrus apeared out of nowhere because whatever made them appear (Gaster) is now erased from the timeline. Sans being Gaster would mean Gaster was never erased at all, raising the question of why nobody remembers him, and what happened to the Followers.

"Well it's a moot point. And I am disagreeing. Toby says this other undertale game is "shrouded in darkness" and when he says he is going to work on something new he says it is "shouded in darkness".  It could be nothing else. Dark, Darker, Yet Darker. Could you stop shrouding it in darkness, Toby! It literally can't get any darker! Stahp!"

Toby! It literally has NEGATIVE light now! How are you doing this?! Stahp before you destabilize the Earth!

"They is probably ALL of the remaining backer tiers including the Game. Maybe."

Well, that gives us an idea when to expect it. 4th anniversarry of Undertale..?

"Toby, when he announced the game was releasing the next day said and I quote, ​​​​​ "Thank you everybody. Because of you, I was able to make this game. I hope when you play it, you feel proud to have been a part of it, too. It's just a simple game by a single worthless dog, but I hope something within it resonates with you."

Oh yeah, that one. Well, guess he calls himself the annoying dog. But.. The annoying dog is a thief. So, does that mean that Toby is ALSO a thief....? Did he rob us of the $50k on the Kickstarter...? .... (This right there is why I've been trying to say he's not the dog. Now that we say he is the dog, look at all the suspicion that just got added against Toby Fox. The dog is a thief, and Toby is the dog, so.. By transitivity... Yeah. I was trying to say he wasn't the dog, as I didn't want to say Toby Fox himself is a thief.)

"Yes, but the sprite also matches the cover art for the Undertale Disk version. Which is just the splash screen. I believe this was a Meta joke. Which Meta-ton does several times in game."

His jokes were about his own show. Like him saying two minutes, but it being three minutes. The hudndred rooms ago thing works too, as Alphys was watching the human since Snowdin-She would have seen the human go through Papyrus' version, and told Mettaton as she planned the whole show out. (Except for the EX finale. While she likely did plan some kind of EX finale, due to mentioning the switch, she didn't intend Mettaton to expose her.)

"The rest is just a joke about how Toby is the dog and thus this is how he made the game and how he speaks to real world people through the bark to speech translator on a computer open to a social media site."

And they're all terrible, unlike his real posts. Him even being the reason behind most bad posts PERIOD.

"Reminds me of the quantum physics book with the joke book which has a quantum physics inside, etc. in Sans and Papyrus' house."

That's still somewhat sensible. And Sans knows his quantum physics..

"Ah, I have learned a thing. Maybe lol, but I'm sure that unused spell icon is just a beta element. I mean the whole "DOG!!" Thing shows that he annoyed you, that's why he took the artifact."

He stole the artifact. He's not just annoying, he's a flat-out thief!

"He's the Annoying dog. Plus, Toby can be annoying, I'm sure. I wonder if Temmie(IRL) would vouch for this."

But is he a thief...?

"Girl: ¿Porque no los dos? *Mexican music plays while the girl is held up*  Old El Paso. When you just GOTTA have Mexican™."

You said you proved it's a reference to Toby, that it can't not be. I presented an alternative explanation that doesn't rely on the dog being Toby.

"Because they're all skeletons who are named after and speak in fonts is not evidence that they are his sons, they could be brothers or unrelated altogether, it's the trait of the species. Sure, them being his sons is a POSSIBILITY but nothing is confirmed. That's what the game is for."

There's more evidence than that. Papyrus and Sans showed up out of nowhere. Just popped into existence. How is that possible? Well, if in the original timeline, Gaster is their father, and in the latter timeline, there is no Gaster.. That means there is no father. Sans and Papyrus came out of nowhere. They just showed up.

Also, we don't see any two monsters of the same species that aren't biologically related, either as parent and child, or as siblings. The war wiped out almost all of the monster population, to the point where all remaining monsters lived in one city. All the remaining species are survivors of this war.

"True, Clamgirl is mysterious, however that "bad drawing with three smiley figures"... sounds familiar? How do little kids draw? Exactly."

It's Sans. He made his scultire of himself literally a rock. Not only that, in certain "Fun" values, there's a drawing of "Nightmare" on Sans' word search. And, it's bad as well. Sans is the one who drew the picture. Not "Suzy".

"About Clamgirl being mysterious it's interesting how they mention coming "from the city" but never says it's the CAPITAL adding "Synchronicity...?" at the end, interestingly in order to find Clamgirl our existance and the FUN value of her existance must synchronize . I wonder if this means that "My neighbor's daughter" has a different meaning under it. Neighbor timeline? Neighbor fun value? Gaster would be the fun value character closest to Clamgirl.   (Well, Goner kid would be but Goner kid is a kid and cannot have a daughter.) But again this is speculation, only the game can provide answers."

Yeah, speculation indeed.

​​​​​​"Clamgirl also seems to know alot about "This world" and it's "infinite possibilities." And how it's healthy to accept that there is a limit to what we can do today when we tell her we never met Suzy. Some wonder if this implies Toby will patch the game, but as he said "Please erase all the dreams from your mind." so unless he's actually kidding, the only other possibility is another game set in "this world"."

It could also imply Frisk meets Suzy after the game. After all, the game all happens in one day.

"Since Suzy doesn't exist in game, they cannot stop us from naming Chara Suzy nor can they be recognized by anyone. It seems only Clamgirl and Sans know of Suzy's existance."

You're saying the mere mention of the name somehow warped all of space-time to make the drawing visible. I'm saying that can't be the case, because if we name Chara Suzy, it doesn't count. Therefore, the real origin is Clamgirl herself.

"It's highly unlikely they are a human. For one their soul was not harvested, they were said to be a very much living person, even today, at our age"

When did it say that? Clamgirl could have simply not known Suzy was dead, or ahe could have meant the SOUL of Suzy. I'm actually saying Suzy is one of the six captured SOULs.

"remember when Asriel died, killed by humans when he left the underground while fused with Chara's soul killing both of them(and Chara, Again.. poor family.) as they had a fusion soul which shattered.Asgore, grief stricken, proclaimed from now on humans would be reaped for their souls. And there is no human soul in the game besides the ones we know and no record of anyone adopting any more human children and since all the monsters want to attack us, that is unlikely."

Suzy's SOUL would have been captured. And that's exactly what I argue happened. It's one of the six SOULs in the containers.

"We never see who the river person is under their cloak, so it's totally plausible that Frisk would state they never met Suzy. Also the River Person seems to tall to be a child about Frisk's age."

So.. Could the River Person be Suzy or not? You seem to be arguing both that they could be (haven't seen under their cloak) and that they couldn't be (too tall)

"Impossible, Gaster's work and job as Royal Scientist is to find a way out of the underground, and besides, all monsters who were not imprisoned Underground were murdered. The followers cannot be Humans the war occured during midevil times and science was likely not a big thing.  Nor were Cameras."

I meant when they were erased from the timeline like Gaster was, they ENDED UP on the Surface! After all, Goner Kid is in Waterfall, and we all know Gaster fell in Hotland.

"We also know that whatever forms the followers were in, have been erased. They no longer exist in the timeline."

I'll elaborate on this a little more. The reason why we know the forms have been erased, is because if they WEREN'T, if what we see them as was indeed their original forms, then we would have recognized them when looking as Sans' photo if we met the Followers before. The fact that we still don't proves they must have had other appearances instead. ...See what I meant when I said the theory wasn't near finished yet, and was several layers down?

"Anyways, that is very very interesting! I like it, but then again, one of them is a character we do not see in this timeline and one has a weird head stuck to it... it's interesting how the head is the one talking, not the character.. so which is the piece of Gaster? Just kidding it can only be the head, the head doesn't have arms after all. The head seems to literally be connected to the follower, speaking for him."

You must be talking about Gaster himself (form not seen in the timeline), and the one Gaster Follower. So, let's explain the two using this theory, shall we?

Now, we know that the one with the head still takes the form of a character we see, just with his head removed, speaking on its own.. Just like Papyrus' head... It seems that the status of Papyrus being killed has erroneously been assigned to this other character. It's using a foriegn state-One that belongs to another character. This is, once again, due to the fact that the actual points don't exist anymore-Therefore, it just loads "garbage data". What I failed to explain last time is that when a pointer doesn't exist, it actually jumps to where the pointer SHOULD be, and runs the code as if the byte there was a pointer, which is usually just invalid anyway. After all, it can't tell what is and isn't a pointer-A byte is a byte, after all. But sometimes, it can, by coincidence, also match that of a real pointer, like this one. Sure, that byte of code wasn't intended to be run as the ID of a status condition, but it's run as such anyway, due to being placed where such a staus ID should be. Now, let's talk about Mysteryman. His entire sprite seems to be some glitched, melted skelton. The bottom half looks like a complete mess of pixels, while the top half being a glitched version of the Gaster Blaster sprite. When it comes to Gaster, he's WAY out of the character range. He ended up near the Gaster Blaster's coding (makes sense, Gaster Blasters came from Gaster), and after that, there was just gibberish. We know Gaster exists at least somewhat, as naming Chara Gaster crashes the game. So the game does somehow "know" Gaster exists.. But everything about him is gone. His intial ID is within range, yet, it is null and void, therefore, it becomes like Missingno-Gathering a bunch of garbage data to form this glitched sprite, after it runs out of Blaster sprite to use. I mean, come on, does the bottom half on Gaster even LOOK like a possible, realistic, orderly arrangement of black wnd white?

"Also, as I mention in another post. Goner Kid does talk like Monster kid in some lines of dialogue."

"???" Here is likely referring to whatever entity Goner kid is. Nonexistent.. A name has never been given, and it's not like ot logically would, either. Nobody else even knows that's a thing, ao it would never be named. Hence, it's just "???". There's no word to describe what exactly Monster Kid has become. No name for it.

"I don't think it's because he doesn't remember, he cut himself off while he was explaing that it was because of popularity, that's not forgetting, that's doubt. Papyrus doubts that this is really what he wants to do with himself. The lost souls also seem as if they have been put under some sort of truth serum affect, revealing things they keep to themselves more often than not."

He cut himself off as he was trying to recall why he wanted to capture a human. Here's a possible explanation for this:Memories involving friendship are what have been erased, right? And Papyrus wanted to make friemds with the monsters, that was his reason. So, it really shouldn't come as a suprise that he'd forget that, too.

"Papyrus Idolized Mettaton yes, but he idolizes Undyne more and never claims to want to be in his position."

See yor point now.

"Papyrus feels as if he's naturally great and that he should be recognized for it he believes this very strongly.. it's strange. Most of those people want to work to become famous."

He does want to work for it. He wants to become part of the Royal Guard, and capture a human, which, if you haven't noticed, is a pretty big deal around the underground, since well, it's kind of the only way to break the barrier and free all of monsterkind? Anatways, I still stand that Papyrus wants to be famous for the same reasons why some humans want to be famous.

"I believe some of the royal guard dogs realize it's Papyrus and Sans who are missing."

Sans isn't missing, he's still there.

"This is true."

Yep. Infamous. And people don't "like" infamous, they like to LAUGH at them. Kind of like what's going on with the skelebros. I mean, where do you think the idea of something being "so bad, it's good" came from?

"This is also true. Though Undyne is extremely upset that Papyrus was killed."

Papyrus does want to become part of tje Royal Guard, after all. They're already friends.

"Exactly. He dislikes wordplay, but enjoys japes.  He made a pun when he talks with Sans in their first encounter but it was likely to tease Sans.  "AS FOR YOUR WORK. PUT A LITTLE MORE..BACKBONE INTO IT! NYEH HEH HEH HEH HEH HEH HEH!!! HEH!" I wouldn't be surprised if he regretted "stooping to Sans' level" after, though."

Yeah, that works. I really thought he made puns because he enjoyed them too, and just didn't like Sans doing it instead of doing actual work (with Papyrus hating puns altogether just being fanon), but, as we've both pieced together, this simply can't be the case-Papyrus really DOESN'T like puns. The fandom was actually correct here. After all, even though Sans hates making promises.. He still made one to Toriel. Papyrus may very well be in a similar situation.

"He does not, he expects to survive"

Because he expects his teachings to work. He even says they're working already, and expects us to give him a hug of acceptance, rather than killing him.

"and even tells us in a neutral run that it is lucky we stopped that if we attacked he would have no choice but to blast us with his "SPECIAL ATTACK"."

Pretty sure you don't kill Papyrus in one hit while not current on a Genocide Route, unless it's after he spares you, like with Toriel.

"He then notes his attack has been stolen.. you know, I wonder.. considering Papyrus likes to keep his magic attacks around in boxes instead of dispelling them, I wonder if Sans stole some of his Gaster Blasters, after all, he gets really tired as he fights and he summons hundreds of them, doing this would help him win. I also wonder if keeping his attacks around tires him, combine that with that fact that he says he never sleeps I'm surprised Papyrus doesn't just collapse. Maybe it's training? LOL."

He's a skeleton. Skeletons don't need to sleep.. They CAN, as Sans does it to be lazy, but it's not a requirement. This is actually why Papyrus considers "sleeping" to be just an excuse for Sans doing it, and calls it "napping". This means perhaps skeletons first arose in an area where predators were common, and sleeping was a dangerous thing to do.

"Wasn't it said there wasn't a single human causalty? EDIT: Well, it's said no soul was taken, that could mean that, but it could also mean resets prevented that, the soul shattered, or no one thought of it? It's unclear."

I mean humans that died naturally, of old age, throughout the millenia they've existed for. Their SOULs should still be floating around the Surface to this day, or absorbed, if they don't "get away".

"That may be part of it but it seems he expects to take the hit."

"IS THAT A HUG OF ACCEPTION? IT SEEMS MY GEACHINGS ARE ALREADY IN EFFECT! I WELCOME YOU, WITH OPEN ARMS!"

Yeah, he doesn't.

"And it makes sense, even if he's overestimating himself that alone would make him more powerful due to his nature as a monster, hell, Undyne gave herself enough determination to become the ULTIMATE Monster, Undyne the undying by sheer willpower alone. Even in a neutral run she manages to extend her life forcing us to take her non-existant HP into the negatives. (I'm sure Gaster or Alphys would have loved to see that! Well, probably not the former since Undyne dies in that one, though, we don't know if Undyne the Undying can survive outside the rush of battle.)"

You meant the latter, Alphys, right?

"But eventually it takes it's toll and melts her a little before she turns to dust. The only reason Sans doesn't power up is because he still even at the point of that fight he has no self-confidence and knows that fighting us is pointless. As he says. "to be blunt... it makes it kind of hard to give it my all."

That's referring to his lazyness in general. Directly afterwards, he says that NOW, he can't afford not to care anymore, because of what comes next.

Though, I already know how Sans could be a better job than he already does. Know that attack that insta-kills you when you spare him...? Sans could have used that attack at any point, and didn't. He could have made his battle literally impossible. I wonder why he didn't...

"Pfft, I don't know, I don't keep track, try watching a video containing them all, they're pretty entertaining and informative so there's no downside. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqcl_cOZ-W8&t=275s)  Papyrus has the most dialogue of any character even more than the narrator, Chara(But that's a whole 'nother theory.)"

Wow, you believe Chara's the narrator too? I actually already made a thread regarding the subject. Pretty recently, I decided to start making mini-theories, to establish the foundational theories that I reply on for some of my greater theories, using only the game itself (plus later on maybe some science) as evidence. (Though, later ones in the series might build off of previous ones, in which case, I'll link to the previous one when using it.) I've already gotten to Chara being the narrator, in number 2.

Back on topic, though.. I found it. It's in the room with Gerson's shop. Selling flames.. He sure does have some weird dream choices.

"True, maybe she's hiding it in a very large armour pocket. After all, monsters use magic. Undyne isn't the best role-model for him, Mettaton would make more sense yet.. he doesn't try to become a tv star. Well, he has the status and just because "all we do is water flowers" doesn't mean he wouldn't be called in to battle just incase (even if it's impossible) after all, he's a royal *guard*."

He said things were different, and that's ALL they do. They don't train for battle, so it's clear they're not ever going to battle again. That's why the guard disbanded in the first place, as Undyne explains. Therefore, it's clear the battling is NOT why Papyrus wanted to join. Neither protecting anyone. It's because of Undyne.

"I don't know.... He doesn't just choose not to make promises because he knows better he outright says he HATES making promises.  Something happened to him, something personal and something big before the events of this game."

You do have a point.. He didn't say "I don't make promises", which would better fit, being also what he said to Toriel. Perhaps it's a combination of the two. While analysing the timelines, he's discovered that a promise he made simply can't be kept.. And eventually, that any promises at all aren't worth it..

"He also said "you'd be dead where you stand." Where we stand, as in he'd do a "get dunked on" and stab us vertically with bones instantly goring us as soon as he saw us. Not the best fate for a kid."

Hotland's closer to new Home than it is to Snowdin, which is where Sans first met us.

"Asgore's "This is my duty." comment, that is dutiful this is ANGER, and even if it is in-line with his duties he definately feels something personal."

He's probably angry at himself for not realizing our intentions sooner. By letting us kill everyone escept for Alphys, himself, Flowey, and Asgore.

"Something few monsters could say, likely being born after the war. Gerson, who was a top warrior "The Hammer of Justice!" is an old man now. It says alot about the time period. (And the midevil stuff, gerson is OLD but he is a TURTLE monster so it makes sense.) Sans seems too young to have been there too though, so something else happened... perhaps the human related DT science that drove them mad?"

I actually have my own explanation:Who said monsters have the same lifespan as humans? They could live longer, die to not being made of physical matter that decays, but magic. After all, Toriel and Asgore also live this long.

"Even if Sans stood up now, that doesn't make him a true hero, he fights for the timeline, not really the people the only person he has any shred of attachment to anymore is Papyrus and he gone."

There's the people who evacuated. There's Asgore himself.

"Sure. he opts to make us feel guilty, but maybe that's to make us guilty and to make sure someone is there to give concequences to the Megalomaniac who uses this time ability to play with the Universe as if it were a GAME."

No, it's to make us reset and undo everything. That's why when we get dunked on, he says "if we're really friends, you won't come back!" If we're really friends.. You'll just reset the timeline, and start over. And do it right. He's already hinting at the way out of the battle. Just don't come back! Reset! It's that easy! "Someday, you gotta learn when to quit. And that day's TODAY."

"And that's why Megalovania fits. The vania makes it sounds spooky, Sans is a spooky scary skeleton. Though in the end, he isn't the one who gives the human their just desserts. Chara is. 'You think you are above concequences. Yes. No.' "

Only if we try to bring the world back, going against the evil nature we had from the start. Otherwise, they're perfectly willing to leave the world destroyed for us. This IS what you wanted, right Geno!Frisk?

Also, I figured out my own reason as to why Megalovania didn't contain the "hero" lietmotif. Though, it came from you. Even now, he doesn't really have much determination, unlike Undyne and NEO. His motivation is somewhat different, so another "True Hero" theme wouldn't fit.

"He could, Gaster could literally see himself split apart, screaming "THE SHADOWS CUTTING DEEPER" as his very words shake in horror.  Though, who's to say "You two" is even the people we know in this game."

Either he's whole or he's not. You can't have both.

"Wrong, Our works for any group."

It does. You're saying it implies many, when I'm saying it could also just mean the two. Of course, now I'm saying it's the entire group in the photo.

"Huh, just likely how Sans' eye shines blue and yellow. Anyways I'm talking about the Color wheel and Sans' specific shade of blue, which would translate as orange when reversed."

The color wheel is a primitive, outdated way of classifying colors. Though Sans does look kind of cyan-ish, which would make red it's opposite.. And red and yellow do make orange..

"Yes. He seems to write it off as Sans being Sans, as soon as Sans mentions it he loses his patience because Sans has become so lazy he's resorted to just staring at LAMPS. That's his conclusion. It's funny how he's actually impressed as to how lazy Sans can truly be."

Yep lol

"Well, it's certainly biological when it comes to species."

Yes indeed..

"The thing is that the Skeleton's natural habitat is the lava area much like how in video games that's where you find them, Undertale is a game all about making references to old JRPGs and their enemies, so Undertale would follow this rule..."

It's actually about NOT using them. Monsters AREN't evil tryants who want to take over the world and basically just be evil. "MWA HA HA!!"

"but it doesn't, at least not with Sans and Papyrus, totally with Gaster.. Sans and Papyrus just... showed up one day, out of place.  Sure, like an invasive species they can still thrive in the snow level much like how they could thrive in the volcano level, but that high melting point only arose for one reason.  Lava."

Aually the high melting point is just because they're bones. All species with a skeletal system have bones. Skeleton are just the ones that have managed to thrive with JUST bones. Also, as I said, evolution takes millions of years. Skeletons were around well before even the war, and almost cerainly before civilization even existed. When they were banished underground, they had to find places where they could thrive. Snowdin was one of them, so.. Yeah. We have skeletons in Snowdin.

"While this is true I doubt he'd be the type to understand these things."

He knows about the HUD enough to destroy MERCY. Yeah.

"Then again, if, Like I said, he's calling out to loved ones than this whole thing is wrong."

The theme is all about an interesting experiment. This isn't a love letter.

"Yes but speculation died and Underminers said they were done within the first year."

Now there's debate about which theory is right, using evidence, and which evidence is relevant and what isn't. Of course, I'm here to say it's ALL relevant, and there CAN be a theory that doesn't contradict ANY evidence.

"Maybe but it's still not complete, not without an actual flashback, and even Toby himself said that "looking too hard here will only lead to dispair" The answers are in 'Shrouded in Darkness.'"

Says the same guy who said there's no reason to replay the game. Why can't this be another one of this "reverse psychology" thing, or, in my case.. Another lie?