Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27677820-20160131035943/@comment-27851652-20160223104754

Is Asriel The Best? wrote: ''People love Asriel, people want to save him, everyone likes to think of him as some perfect angel-like selfless being, an innocent playful child, "if we could just stop him from turning into Flowey again, he could be happy," but I don't think he's as good a person as people like to portray him as. He did some really terrible things, and being sorry about it for 10 minutes doesn’t make up for them. '' -Do people portray Asriel as good that much? Well, let's just focus on how the game portrayed him. Based on the story, he was kind and loved by nearly everyone. So, he didn't do anything bad enough to be feared or even have a reputation of being mean. In fact, his reputation was good. Asriel herd the first human cry out for help and went to their aid, helping them even though everyone feared and disliked humans, he still was kind. Asriel then truly loved the human as a sibling, shown by Asriel thinking Frisk was his sibling and calling Frisk by his sibling's name. This shows that he was able to love and accept a human unconditionally, when most monsters could not due to fear. Asriel also refused to defend himself against the humans who attacked him, and chose to die rather than hurt others. So, if we're beng honest, Asriel was Undeniably a good person before he became Flowey. There is no evidence or lore to indicate otherwise.

''It's a pretty dang popular opinion that when Asriel reverts back to his child form he immediately begins weeping. Who could blame him? He’s completely overwhelmed by a force he’d forgotten about over his time as a flower. ''

-There no "proof" Asriel is weeping, but its a fair assumption.

''He can finally can  feel  things again, he can feel the power of the souls inside of him, he can feel bravery in the face of you, and most importantly, he can feel love . ''

-How do you know that? How do you know Asriel was feeling anything? He took the form of a powerful monster to gain power, not to be normal. Who knows what it was actually like being infused with all that power. We saw what happened when monster got enfused with too much power in the True Lab, their minds and individuality became unstable, and we know that Asriel Has Determination, so who knows what affect it had on him.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">he can feel <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-style:italic;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">love <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-How do you know? Also, just because you Can feel love isn't the same as experiencing it.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">When Asriel goes back to his old form, it doesn't take a minute for the whole "I'm a demon messing with the lives of innocent people I once held dear to my heart" thing to hit. He can feel love immediately, but it doesn’t sway his opinion of the world. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-That's a lot to assume from just 10 seconds of looking at Asriel 's back. If he was crying, it could be for Many reasons. The scene only lasts for about a minute. How can you claim Ariel felt and thought all those things in such a short time? There's little to support such claims.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">He knows he's a terrible person, that the little child he once was would never do something like this, yet still continues to destroy. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-Again, there's no way to prove that. Most of what we know about Asriel comes from what he has said. Asriel didn't say those things or do anything to imply that he then thought he was evil but didn't care. He claimed to believe that it was "kill or be killed" and he probably believed that, so based on that Asriel would have felt justified. Many people adopt such ideologies in order to justify their own actions, so that they don't believe they are a bad person. He made no mention of himself now being irredeemably different from his previous self.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">You could argue fairly that Flowey wasn’t really Asriel because he couldn’t feel, he was just acting the way anyone else would, which is true to a certain extent. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-Yes, also, he was a flower, and his mind/personality had also joined with the first human's after Asriel absorbed their soul, so his personality as Flowey could of been the combination of both the First Human and Asriel's souls. Asriel now literally had a different body and brain, he literally wasn't himself as Flowey.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">The problem with that is, even when he becomes his former emotional self, he still chooses to absorb the souls of innocent people, family and friends included, and keep Frisk trapped in an infinite time loop. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-I get what you're saying, but I think you're confusing Asriel's former self with his God of Hyperdeath form where he was basically still Flowey just with a different body. We can only really claim that Asriel was his former self After he was saved and was shown in his original body, with his original personality. Otherwise, how can you prove his other forms weren't still Flowey? You might not like this claim, but we can only Truly know with some certainity that Asriel was back to his former self was during the short time when he was no longer a flower and had his original body. And you say "his former emotional self." Asriel is only Shown to be emotional starting after he was saved. When Asriel was fighting, he didn't seem emotional or any different from Flowey. Finally, he absorbed the souls when he was still Flowey, and hadn't changed. He did Keep the souls and not immediately just stop, so there's that. But lets assume Asriel was mostly himself, yet chose to keep fighting Frisk. If you suddenly woke up and realized you were in a life were everyone was dead and you had done a horrible, unforgivable thing, wouldn't you feel like there was no turning back, wouldn't you be scared and reluctant to turn yourself in for crimes you did when you were asleep?

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">He loves each and every person he absorbs the souls of, yet his desire for power is stronger than the love he feels for anyone else. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-Does he? Asriel Couldn't feel love, remember? The game doesn't specify Only beng loved, it just says he couldn't feel love in general, which includes loving others. If he could feel love for others, then why would he kill them? Most people kill those they Don't love. And Flowey said he now only saw people as "lines of dialogue...that's all they are", he never said that he was able to love others. When Flowey was talking about what happened after he first became a flower, he said he tried to feel love but couldn't no matter how hard he tried, saying he spent hours talking with "that stupid old man", showing that from the very beginning he didn't feel any love towards even his own father as a flower. So, let <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">'s assume that Asriel was Able to love others when he absorbed the souls, he had still just spent many years Not loving anyone and being angry at everyone for not being able to help him or make him happy. Even though he now could feel love, the years of those previous feelings and thoughts would be heavily ingrained in his mind and he would have no control of it, because that's how the brain works. Also, everyone and everything was gone, so what was left to even remind Asriel of all those people? He was fighting the final battle of all reality, it's easy to understand how he might be focused on other things besides his feelings he felt fo each individual person in the world. There's no proof Asriel was able to love, was feeling love, or was even thinking about his old friends and family. So, we can't assume that he chose power over love.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">“Now,” someone could argue, “ we do save him.” “That’s true" I could reply "good job for following the plot of the game." The problem with this is, if he was brought back, what’s to stop him from going full Flowey again? 

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-Well, then what do you mean by Saved? Returned to normal? I mean, Asriel doesnt stick around at the end, so I don't know what you mean. If Asriel got his body and life back, then he wouldn't be Flowey in any way, or be subject to the circumstances that influenced his actions as Flowey, so he would likely act like he did before he died, i.e., being nice and kind. If he was still a flower, then I wouldn't consider that being Saved. But yeah, if he was forced to become a soulless flower, then I think Asriel would do the same things probably. But that's like saying "well this guys seems nice...but what If someone threatens to kill him and makes him kill other people! I bet he'd do it, that makes him evil!" It's not fair to judge someone when they are forced into such a horrible unfair situation, It also is pointless, because Everyone could become evil in such insane what-if scenarios.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">He was obviously willing to look past love and goodness for pursuit of power once, what’s to stop him from doing it again? ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-Was he doing all that? He lived in a hellish purgatory where his actions could have no lasting consequence and he could reset at will. In such a world, its easy to eventually think that life is meaningless *cough cough* SANS *cough*. I mean, if you lived in such a strange reality, would you honestly still believe that goodness exists? As Flowey, he did bad things yes, but even then only because he was miserable and was looking for some happiness. He didn't just want power for the sake of power, he wanted to change his awful world, to Not be a flower any more. As Flowey he was cruel and evil in pursuit if his own happiness....but would you act any different if you were trapped as a flower, unable to feel love any more? Can you honestly say that if you were trapped without any hands or feet, couldn't feel love, or eat or touch or feel things any more, would you really Not do Everything in your power to change that hell?

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">The only thing that changed his mind was seeing how Frisk saw the good in everyone, and tried to save him. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-You say "The only thing" like that's bad. Yes, Asriel had limitless power and could do whatever he wanted, Frisk Couldn't stop him, Asriel had no reason to give up such power and go back to being a flower.....yet he Did give up basically being god, and all it took was 1 person showing him kindness...that's all. He wasn't forced or coerced with the threat of the law to be good....he chose to be good and gave up everything, just because he was shown a little kindness.....that's kind of the trait of a good person.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">(Boy oh boy, do I have some opinions about Frisk. If you think this is harsh, just wait for “Frisk is Evil.”) What if though, someone wasn’t always there to remind him of that? <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;"> ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-Asriel has a family and friends, so there's that. Also, Asrial didn't need constant reminding before and he did just fine. Even if we go with what you're saying, then all it means is that Asriel will be a good person as long as someone is there to love him.....that's not that bad. In fact, Most people in real life can't be that good. Most people won't stop doing bad things just because they are shown love. So, even in your hypothetical, Asriel is a more good and kind person than most real peple.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">What if he sees injustice in the world and reverts back to his “kill or be killed” philosophy. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-What do you mean? That he would not like seeing injustice and get angry, or that seeing injustice would make him want to....immitate injustice?...why would that happen? What makes you think that could happen? Asriel saw injustice and was beaten to death, yet still refused to hurt others. As Flowey, he felt the world was "kill or be killed" due to how bad his life had become. He recongnized that he didn't fight back, and died as a result, and ended up in a horrible fate. Because of that, I believe he felt that the world was in reality cruel. Again, the circumstances that came from becoming a flower are what changed Asriel, it seems, so it's fair to say that we can only know that Those circumstances are what would make him "revert" back to his former ideology. Asriel hasn't shown to be easily prone to such thinking and there's no evidence to support otherwise.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">In the pacifist ending, Asriel refuses to be saved by Frisk, even though he knows it could be done with the power of resets. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-In the game, there is No way to get an ending where Asriel get's his former body and lfie back. So, we don't know if Asriel could be saved, so Asriel certainly doesn't know either. It's a possibility, and that's what Frisk and Asriel know.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">He’d rather become a joyless yet harmless flower than risk hurting the people he loves. It’s a noble sacrifice, there’s no way to turn it around and say “it’s actually because he wanted destroy humanity and everything you care for.” ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-....yeah, there kind of isn't a way to twist the selflessness of his action around...why would anyone want to, though? I mean, you seem kind of upset that Asriel is doing something good....isn't that what you wanted though? Even if someone Is evil, they can still do good things, it's not mutually exclusive. If you try to look at everything someone has done in a negative light, then you lose objectivity and make it harder to find the truth. And when you try to mock and portray good acts as being sinister to support your case, you are Still dishonestly dismissing actions that Are in fact righteous and good, You may be doing it for just this one case, but what you say applies to All of these selfless acts and the people who do them.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">The problem is though, the only reason he makes this sacrifice is to preserve his “goodness.” 

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-That is incorrect. 1. How do you know that is Asriel's Only reason? 2. Asriel says at the end that he doesn't want Frisk to rest and try to save him because he doesn't want Frisk to risk throwing away this happy ending. If Frisk resets, everyone's memories, progress, friendships, their freedom, it will all be gone. Frisk might find a way to save Asriel, but Asriel doesn't want everyone to lose everything and rest just for him. 3. Asriel says that he wants to be remembered as who he is now, at the end, and not remembered as some flower. Asriel wants to preserve Himself, his True self, not just his "goodness". A reasonable request and nothing that should be mocked. Most people don't want to be seen if they become brain damaged or are in a coma and tell people as much. So, a little kid wanting his friend to remember him as Himself, and not a creature he was forced to become, is normal and completely fine. 4. Finally even If that was Asriel's only reason...so what? How is that a problem? You claimed and implied that his sacrifice was a problem and somehow bad...but you never explained why. Are you saying that even if people do good things and sacrifice greatly for others, that their sacrifice "doesn't count" if they don't have the right reason or motivation?....that just seems like a cheap and unintelligent tactic to try and insult kindness even though you can't come up with a reasobn why it's bad.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">He understands that if he was given another chance, there would be nothing stopping him from turning into something he didn’t want to be again. As a flower, he might not be good. He might not regret the things he did and he might not understand why he saved everyone. He might even try to make a plot to destroy the world again. He knew though, that without resets Flowey would always be harmless, and thus it was a better ending for him to sacrifice his life. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-...I agree. Asriel knew there was a problem, that he might do bad things. So, he admitted that and did somethin so that he couldn't hurt people again. Most real people won't admit when they have a problem or when they are hurting others. Yet, Asriel does, he accepts it, even though it breaks his heart to accept all the bad things he had done as Flowey. Again, the majority of people lie and refuse to admit or care when they hurt others Because they can't take the guilt and pain of accepting what they did, and that's done by cruel, heartless people. Yet, Asriel faces what happened, even though it hurts him so much more Because of how much he loves others, Asriel sacrificed everything, and he gave up the chance to Ever be saved out of his love for others and not wanting to hurt anyone. Who would give up any chance or rescue like that? Instinctually, we all want to live and to not suffer, so most people would not have done what Asriel did. He's a little kid who only loved and cared for others, yet was tortured and hurt so much for no reason. An innocent little boy that was forced to become a soulless, loveless creature and was forced to do evil things to the ones he loved in a body that wasn't his own. He could have just kept being evil, it would have been easier for him to believe that he was truly evil and didn't care....but even after everything, he chose to sacrifce his power, his life, his happiness. He chose to accept the guilt, even though it broke his heart to acknowledge all that had happened and admit that he had done evil things. Even though everyone thought he was beyone saving, even though He thought he could never make up for his actions, no matter What he did....yet he still did the right thing, even though he knew it wouldn't save him. He sacrificed everything and did the right thing not for himself, but for the sake of everyone. Despite everything, he was still the same little boy who loved and cared for everyone.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">This scene doesn't prove his everlasting goodness, but on the contrary, his acceptance that his goodness is not everlasting. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-You're right. Asriel doesn't have everlasting goodness, no one does. If Not having everlasting goodness is a crime, then you and me and everyone here is guilty. Asriel isn't perfect, he's not the greatest or smartest or bravest person. He can't convince everyone to be his friend or think he is good, and he has never tried to. He's just a little kid that loves everyone and doesn't want to hurt people, that's who he is, even when he tries his hardest to Not be that. <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#ff0000;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#ff0000;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">As someone in the comments pointed out, suicide would have been safer than becoming a flower if his goal was solely to save the ones he loves, as there's always the possibility Flowey would manage to hurt someone. However, I believe Asriel thinks he deserves the punishment given to him for the terrible things he’s done. It's obvious he deeply regrets his actions as a flower, you know, the whole crying and being sorry thing. Self loathing is also a recurring trait in many characters, which could possibly be seen as some straw-graspy evidence. Just ceasing to exist seems like too good an ending for him, so he chooses to deprive himself of happiness. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-.....it's kind of hard to commit suicide. It's kind of...pathetic to criticize a child for Not Killing Themselves. I mean, let's be real here. Are you really saying "well he didn't end his own life, so that Must mean he doesn't really care about protecting others and he wants to suffer!"? People Don't kill themselves all the time, that isn't a result of character flaws. <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">I mean, I get what you're saying, and some of Asriel's dialogue does support what you say, but you have to take a step back and realize that what you're expecting them to do is a bit unreasonable and very difficult to do. It's a big possibility that Asriel didn't kill himself because he is a living creature that has a survival instinct ingrained in his DNA saying "I don't want to die." Also, to take someone Not Immediately killing themselves as evidence for self-loathing is kinda weird. Maybe Asriel was just waiting to see how things turned out, if he would be normal now. I mean, what makes you think he Didn't plan on killing himself? Asriel is only his former self for a short time, we only see him for a few minutes, a day at most, so to make such assumptions based on what he Didn't do in such a short time is invalid.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">'<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">Even if Asriel was saved, and all of the things I've said before don't apply, and he really <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-style:italic;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">does <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">manage to try to be a good person forever, he’s not the person we want to save. Asriel was likely somewhere between 8-12 based on his character design, and I guess maybe his "voice." Compare that to the high likelihood Flowy had been “playing” in the underground for centuries, perhaps even millennia. We know he’s been a flower for quite a while for a few reasons. First, he makes a reference to having tried to get Asgore to show him the human souls “hundreds of times” in the genocide story. Just that alone could have taken centuries, considering he probably had to wait a few years before asking each run. It’s also been said that in the timeline where Frisk fell into the underground, Flowey had just let time move forward without interfering because he’d done “everything this world has to offer.” Can you imagine how long that would take? Depending on how long between when he was brought back as a flower and when Frisk fell, each reset could have taken years to decades, and he would have had to do thousands of them to do <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-style:italic;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">everything, <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;"> if the scale of the ruins and capital backgrounds show anything of the underground’s actual size. The exact amount of time he’s a flower is left vague, but no matter how you look at it, that he was one for 20 years or thousands, he was a flower much longer than a child. He spent lifetimes torturing and slaughtering people who did him no harm, experimenting on the people he once held dear, compared to at most 12 years of being a nice kid. By the time we see him, he doesn’t remember what it’s like to feel emotion, let alone how to act as a gentle and caring person. We all fall in love with the Asriel from Chara’s story, the one that genuinely loved an (admittedly debatable) evil sibling, and refused to even lift a finger against the humans that killed him. '

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">The truth is though, that by the time we meet him, he doesn’t even remember who that person was. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-Even though he remembers what happened to him when he was alive? Even though he remember his sibling and his affection for them? Even though he manages to act and do the same thing he did years ago when he died? (having great power, but then refusing to use it, and sacrifiing himself out of love for others).

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">'<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">The Asriel we meet is broken, irreparably. '

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-.....i mean, all it took was a few minutes of Frisk showing Asriel kidness to make Asriel go back to his old self....and like you said, Asriel could have lived for centuies as a flower.....yet despite that, it took at most 30 minutes to convince him to give up being good and to be good again. Also, how can you know someone is irreparably damaged?

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">''<span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">Even if we were able to save Asriel ( <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-style:italic;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">Dreamer Reborn <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;"> style if at all) he’d not be the person we all want him to be. Dozens of stories show Asriel as being a goofy fluffball that believes in the good of people. He’s funny and charming and cute, the kind of person everyone wants to love. At one point that Asriel <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-style:italic;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">did <span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">exist, but he died long before we could save him. ''

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">-People change, we all do. Just because you suffer abuse and are traumatized doesn't mean you're just a "broken person" or that you are not You any more. People don't stop being real or worth saving just because they change or suffer. If your grandfather fought in a war and came back different, would you reject him and think he's not his "true" self? The point of Undertale is that there is good in people and that people Are worth saving, no matter what happens, you can't give up on people, because anyone can be saved if you show them kindness and love. Even if people hurt you, they aren't evil. You can either hurt people back, which will make you get hurt less and make it easier for you to hurt others, or you can believe in people and try to save them even when you think it's impossible. It is more difficult and often gets you hurt, and doing that may even be a bit naive, but if you don't even try then you end up a little bit soulless.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;color:#d9d9d9;font-weight:400;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">+I can understand a bit where you're coming from and your theories have merit to them, but based on Undertale's overall theme and plot, I don't think your arguments make sense in regards to the story cannon or the creator's intentions. The whole point of the game is that everyone can be saved, that everyone has good in them. It's not that the characters are self-loathing, they just don't like certain things about themselves.....just like everyone else in the world. But they accept their flaws and work to better themselves or just accept who they are, "Self-loathng" is a very broad term and not like Actually a real diagnosis of a behavior disorder or a term that has a precise definition. I dont think any of the characters want to suffer forever because they feel they desearve it. Everyone can feel not worthy or worthless, it's not the same as self-loathing.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">+Your theories seem to be a bit grim-dark, Definitely darker than Undertale's cannon is trying to be, I think. Some of what you said would probably be accurate theories in a more realistic setting. In reality, most people would get the power, and chose to keep it even if it hurt their loved ones. Yeah, if someone Actually had to live as a flower in surreal world that could be reset over and over for many years, then that person would probably break mentally and emotionally. Which is sad, but true.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:2.16;margin-top:11pt;margin-bottom:11pt;">However, Asriel IS a good and innocent person. Not just based on his life and his actions, but also because that is the theme Undertale goes for.