Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190820122909/@comment-32182236-20190919180226

Alright, let's see how good you did.

First off, you never explained why Sans didn't just reset. ...I still think he could have just done that. Seriously! This is one of the biggest plot holes in your hypothesis.

Undyne could been saying modern technology for all technology, she does seem to have trouble telling between modern human tech and anime. Or should could have been differentiating between Modern tech and the Future tech that went into the Core.

Okay.. You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make. Let me make it more clear.

First, Gaster was forgotten. So nobody knows where his future tech came from.

Second, the only known source for technology (because Gaster isn't a known source) is from the humans in the Surface.

Third, modern means modern. What's modern to the monsters of the time. What THEY consider modern. If we go 100 years into the future, do you think people will still call a computer running Windows 10 on a 16TB hard drive modern?

Of course not. It would be an antique.

The same idea exists here. What we call the future tech would be considered MODERN by the monsters, because it's the most novel tech that they have.

Fourth, the future tech, which the monsters call "modern", looks a lot like what you'd find in anime. Undyne could easily confuse the two.

Fifth, this anime is found in the dump.

Therefore, Undyne would conclude that the "modern technology", which we know came from Gaster, came from humans and their anime. Because there is no other source that which it could have reasonably came from to her. What, Gaster? Nobody knows he even existed-Just that someone great made the CORE. Where did they get the idea of it from? Who was this mystery person?

But I've learned things since then, and changed my stance a bit. Since nobody knows how Gaster's tech even works, they couldn't spread it. So the human technology would be the modern technology, with Gaster's technology being some mystery super-tech that nobody can make more of. Thus, the statement that all modern technology comes from humans makes perfect sense.

Undyne does visit the dump quite often. It's a great place to pick up girls, after all. She probably noticed that the modern human garbage looks very different from the things in Alphy's lab.

Correct.

It seems our biggest disagreement is when Gaster arrived.

That is definitely a disagreement. I believe he arrived years before Chara did, enough time for him to create revolution after revolution, and bring monsters to the great technological state that they were in before his fall in 201X PF, or 19XX AD. Remember how most progression from science comes in big revolutions made by geniuses? And how Gaster's brilliance was irreplaceable? I think it was because he was smart enough to make revolution after revolution.

It would have taken something of incredible power to make the monsters lose their ancestral fear of humanity to make their migration to New Home.

Why can't it be something mundane like the fact that no human has fallen down to attack them in the many centuries that they could have? Or something not as mundane, like Gaster discovering that if a human fell, they couldn't come back by doing careful analysis of the Barrier's properties?

And whatever it was the happened, it happened after Early 201X, when the Dreemurs were residing in the Ruins, and Asriel was their only child with a single bed.

..Yes.

Chara did not arrive until the Core/New Home complex was established. Chara arrived at the End of 201X while the MTT complex, complete with memorial fountain, was established in beforehand in mid 201X.

Right, I do not believe Chara was the cause.

The only event I can find with enough power to cause this sea change in monster attitude would be Gaster's arrival. Gaster must have been present for the construction of the Core, and thus the establishment of New Home.

That is also correct.

Toriel's handheld tape-based video recorder allowed her to record talking with Asgore about having a child before the migration, perhaps earlier than 201X, and is technology consistent with human technology of the same time. This is certainly gear the monsters could have salvaged from human garbage before Gaster's arrival.

Or Gaster arrived, but only AFTER he did a specific thing did they fear the monsters no longer. Gaster wouldn't have built the CORE right away, just as nobody can build Rome in a day. He would have started out by making discovery after discovery, progressing the monsters through the ages. He would have dabbled in quantum mechanics, and discovered the uncertainty principle. He would have then discovered quantum field theory, and probably even solved quantum gravity.

I think he ARRIVED years before 201X PF, but gradually discovered more and more, and a very specific discovery is what made them finally leave. The discovery that the reason why no human has came to attack.. Is because they couldn't return.

--

I don't know my Alphys says the Core converts geothermal energy to "magical electricity". This could mean electricity itself seems magical, but while backwards in some ways, I don't think the monsters, and Alphys in particular, are -that- backward.

That's why I say it's a magical KIND of electricity. And why this means they couldn't have gotten it from the humans, which don't use magic.

Is Magical Electricity different from regular electricity?

YES. That's why it's not just called electricity.

Are weapons powered by Magical Electricity able to hurt ghosts?

Probably.

Is this how Gaster Blasters might actually be able to blast Gaster?

Yes, Gaster Blasters are a MAGICAL attack.

My current theory is that Deltarune exists in the contined Alpha Timeline. A timeline where, apparently, Gaster is now in control. Perhaps the timeline when The Darkest Experiment actually worked.

Hmm.. Perhaps. A quantum system will always be in superposition until an observation is made, in which the wave function collapses But one interpretation is that the wave function never collapses at all-We are simply entangled with the outcome instead, also in superposition. The universe that our conscious ends up in is then one of many in the superposition. So it could be that Undertale and Deltarune are two different possibilities within the greater superposition of Undertale's multiverse.

...That is, if they didn't have differing rules, as I went over.

Do they intersect? Yes. Remember that the donation box from The Dark World that fell through a hole felt into Undertale's garbage dump in some version of the game (Switch?).

How do we know it's the same box? It's stylized the same, but that could just mean they're two boxes from the same source. Any two donation boxes would be similar, because they're both donation boxes. This kind of principle is why convergent evolution is a thing.

I have no doubt many details of the two timelines are very different now. Especially since Detlarune appears to be a Mirror Universe where many attributes of our characters are opposite. And a decade has probably passed since the timeline split, so who knows how far they could have drifted apart.

AT LEAST a decade.

Remember that what characters says doesn't always reflect what they know, or believe.

..Why would Papyrus purposefully get Santa wrong? Why has nobody clarified who Santa actually is? Papyrus is the only monster to ever mention Santa Claus. But Santa is an important figure in the human world. The monsters should know about Santa.. As I said, the only frames of reference the monsters have of humans comes from trash. So all they get are all the thrown-away ads about Santa, which makes him look like a chubby man who likes surprising people.

Papyrus seems able to enter Sans' room as well as Frisk, and his vocabulary is far in advance of what you'd expect from a moron, even if he makes a point of acting like one.. almost conspicuously.

..Frisk entered the room because they had the key. Papyrus entered the room because it was unlocked. Why was it unlocked? Because Frisk opened the door.

And if I thought this was Papyrus being a moron, I wouldn't have gave actual justification for why he thought Santa was a chubby old man. He thought Santa was a chubby old man because that was the best information monsters had about him. If we were in his position, we'd probably reach the same conclusion. Papyrus can just be goofy sometimes, and isn't a super-genius. Since he failed to properly set up Alphys' puzzle

Is Frisk the first human Papyrus has ever knowingly met? Somehow I doubt that. He's met Sans before, after all. And every other other monster in the game can idenfity humans by sight. Somehow I think Papyrus can too.

...Do you think Sans' disguise WORKED or not? If you argue Papyrus could have known Sans was a human, why doesn't everybody else know this for the same reason?

As I've said, I find Papyrus' (and Alphy's) behaviour at the end of the True Pacifist run suspicous. I don't think we can assume Papyrus didn't know about humans, or the queen. Especially since Sans has been texting the queen for some time, telling her all about Papyrus.

...Really? You think it's strange for Sans to tell Toriel about Papyrus without his knowledge? You don't think it makes sense for Sans to.. talk about someone who's not there? Seriously?

Even Sans might not have known that Toriel was the queen until after she showed up, as well. Only recognizing Toriel because of the voice.

But I'll give you Sans. The point still stands, because I was talking about fallen humans. It's been a long time since Frisk fell, and Papyrus has NEVER seen a human. So no human fell in his lifetime. So it was definitely MORE than one generation after Asriel/Chara/201X, and thus, after Deltarune, which happens LESS than one generation after 201X. So Deltarune happens before Undertale.

It's not just Monster Kid who's gotten older. Our human has gotten older, too. Kris is taller than Frisk and Chara. And Gerson seems to be dead now, while he was still alive in Undertale.

Exactly. Deltarune must happen after Undertale.

But it also must happen before Undertale.

See the paradox? It must both be after and before Undertale, which is impossible. Therefore, it CANNOT be the world of Undertale at all.

I'll be defending the rest in a later post.