Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170819030611

2) The dog room... If it breaks the canon, isn't it simpler to assume that Frisk cannot enter it in the first place? I mean, we essentially have to beat the credits game to access it, and that involves Asriel in his god of hyperdeath form somehow? But Asriel gave his powers away, so the credits dodging game is a nonsense to begin with.

Next, I'd like to mention that the PS4 version has a dog shrine. I would actually call that somewhat canon. It's not present in the original game, so it might be an alternative timeline, but nothing in that room really seems to break the 4th wall, unlike the developer's room.

3) They still feel for them during the route, but yes, at the very end, they're completely numb to any feelings.

3.3) Well then, maybe a save point is just an empty template. I think LV 0 means no data, since I believe LV 1 is the bare minimum. Unless Frisk commited some atrocity at the surface. Or the LV 1 shows potential. Theoretically, a being with LV 0 couldn't even commit a genocide. Maybe the fact that Frisk has an LV of 1 gives us a choice to fight. But then again, where did that one LV come from it it's not the default...

Still, I believe the save belongs to Chara, since it has their name. However, Frisk is the one changing it, therefore changing Chara. Owning the save point must not necessarily mean you also get to control it.

3.5) The numbers are probably a bit nonsensical. It's weird that they bear such exact values (all 9's). Maybe they're a manifestation of Chara's anger and therefore, reach such absurd values. Maybe they're not hard-coded into the universe at all (they're certainly not pre-calculated by the game, they were directly typed in by Toby, while the rest utilizes an RNG). And Chara's level of violence is directly dependant on us, so it makes sense to say that the LV showed by the save point shows their LV, as well as ours, since Frisk and Chara are linked (so they're most likely synchronized too).

And maybe Chara destroyed the world. But not physically. As I said, the 9's cannot be natural. So maybe all that rage just killed the "game", not the world. From their perspective, it might look like they removed the world from the existence though. But I still believe they do not have enough power to destroy it.

3.6) I still believe the HUD is exclusive to the player. Just because the other characters can interact with it doesn't prove that its existence is confirmed from their side as well. It doesn't have to be anything at all actually, I believe I've already stressed how I can explain all of the weird HUD stuff through the overworld mechanics - the normal logical ones.

And Frisk? I've already said that it is a nonsense to say that we're them, so we must instead be possessing them, which means they aren't themselves. That would allow you to say whatever you want, except that Frisk can speak without our permission. So we aren't literally roleplaying them. So maybe they're more separated from us than we may think. Maybe even, they see the world normally, and never through some HUD.

And if the above is true, then Frisk didn't partake in any of the weird events, such as naming Chara, or fighting the credits. We did. But if the above is not true, then again, explain how can Frisk act without us, while being us. It defies all logic.

3.7) Or they think it is Frisk doing it. Technically only Napstablook and Tsunderplane acknowledge the presence of someone else, and Tsunderplane might be just another ghost, kinda like Mettaton. After all, they do explode upon death rather than turning into dust. And the monsters don't necessarily have to hide their stats on occasion. They could just be permanently stubborn in this way. But that doesn't mean they know about Chara, or about the HUD. It could just mean that they're very secretive. And honestly, the narration can get a bit nonsensical sometimes.

4.1) Well it's still not a proof that the station was moved someplace hot. As I said, the snow crust varies between buildings that are literally next to each other.

4.2) Yes, he gets it by that time. Maybe he thought so since the very first run. But still, he doesn't trust us, since we seem to be too eager to leave. He does not want us to leave. That's why, during the neutral route, he destroys Asgore's soul.

4.6) We don't care about the other lines, they're of no value to us. But those that are speak clearly that she gave us a spear, and that she did it only to make the fight fair. So that got me thinking, what if being green is a part of receiving the spear? But in that case, why is the emphasis put on the soul mode, not on the spear? That's where I think the inconsistency is.

4.10) Just because the game is about two separate races doesn't mean it will use two different calendars. They are meant to be the same. If Toby wanted to put an emphasis on certain dates, then he would have to use the same calendar for all of them. Why would he want to confuse people?

4.11) Flowey doesn't seem to be surprised by Frisk's presence when they first meet, so he must have heard them falling down, which means they couldn't have been there for that long. Otherwise Flowey would be the one to investigate. And there's also quite a large gap between the intro and the game, and that is the entire game menu. Weird that Frisk doesn't see this when they black out in Waterfall, hmm?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">"<span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Sans is a character within the game, so what he does must make sense within the world of Undertale" -  <span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">That's where you're wrong.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">And unlike quantum mechanics, Undertale is just a game. We MUST cherry pick the evidence, since Toby NEVER thought about the game as deeply as we do. I already told you, not everything must make sense.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">And luminiferous aether was an idea postulated to explain the propagation of electromagnetic waves through vacuum using classical mechanics. By definition, a wave requires a physical medium, but light didn't seem to need such thing. That is because light consists of particles, which behave like a wave. And particles need no medium. But that doesn't matter. You agreed that luminiferous aether isn't the answer, so you agreed that this theory can be explained without any additional components.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So your analogy using physics failed.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">4.13) Or just, you know, we could separate the human soul from their body. That could be done easily. Just beat the body until it's unusable as a vessel. And if you're saying that the only way to defeat a human is to deplete their DT, then you agree with me. You agree that when a human gives up after their death, they forfeit their right to reset.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">5) Why shouldn't we trust the option we chose? Maybe because Frisk outright disagreed with us? We chose to heckle, Chara narrated the heckle, Frisk disagreed. Hmm. Seems like your solid theory of HUD isn't so solid after all? Maybe this one piece of evidence shatters everything :3

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">And about laughing, I do not think that in this case Frisk laughed, since the game is already set in the true pacifist route at that point. I also do not think that Chara meant an anxious laugh, since that seems like an overreaction. Instead, I think that Chara was being sarcastic. I mean, the entire speech seems a bit exaggerated, so if it can't be an anxious laugh (the situation isn't anxious anyways, it is sad), it has to be a sarcastic one. And that would work. Chara, not understanding our choice, would deliberately overdo the expression of laughter, and then on top of that get surprised that Frisk did not actually laugh. All because the button was pressed. They expected Frisk to laugh, they disagreed, so they overdid the narration, and then got surprised that Frisk actually didn't do it.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">And the explanation with the bullets doesn't always fail. The button usually appears in some gap, giving Frisk some time.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">6) Chara could be speaking about two things there, not reexplaining the same one. Frankly, putting the words "soul" and "determination" into two similar sentences doesn't convince me.  <span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Frisk was determined, yes, but it was their unique soul that revived Chara. But it's not just about this. There are other pieces of evidence that show that all humans had the same powers as Frisk, ergo, that they all had the same, if not higher amounts of determination than Frisk.