Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27136653-20180228205701/@comment-27136653-20180318040710

All things aside, I've just stumbled upon this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6gS2LPXdIc5U0wxOGFIcHBWU28/view

Wondering why out of all things a Star Wars reference was put there can get really messy. Like, yes, without the western world, SW wouldn't exist. But on the other hand, there's monsters and magic in this world, which kinda implies this isn't our world. Either way, the first episode of SW was released in 1977. Ergo, it is as I said, Chara fell in what translates to 2015 present day world. People didn't dream of space in 1915 the same way they did in 1977, and they didn't dream on this level at all in the centuries prior to that. In any case, Chara fell after space sci-fi movies were already a thing. And it wasn't a monster thing, else they would have no reason to tell it to Frisk. No one makes a witty pun/reference knowing the other side won't get it.

"I said the MTT resort is on the bottom of the cliff."

It's not at the bottom of the cliff, since we already have to ride a few elevators to even get there, remember.

"That also means the monsters would have needed to build a bridge.. A bridge that wouldn't burn up by magma.. If they even wanted to REACH the wall to carve into stairs. So.. A stone bridge? (It can't be wooden. It would burn up.) ...What happened to that bridge? Why don't we actually see the bridge?"

We don't know if everything is cut off by the magma. As I said, perhaps there are other routes that utilize no brides. And about bridges, the very first bridge in Hotland IS made out of wood, and it isn't burning. So bridges are not an issue.

"Yes, they have to get to the other side. ...That's part of what the CORE was made to do in the first place. Get to the other side. ..How would they have done it more efficeiently?"

How? By not building an entire powerplant, but just a single bridge instead. There is literally no need to build a powerplant in order to bridge two places. Unless you want to get power from whatever you're bridging too. But then again, simply going somewhere and deciding to build a powerplant there right upon arrival is incredibly rushed no matter what. A set of simple bridges was built first.

"Caves are linear"

Have you ever been in a cave? And besides, just look at the background. My guess is, we got to explore only like 1% of the underground.

"Actually, them starting on the top was my hypothesis on how they did it in the image. It's possible to be stuck at the top of a cliff and have to find a way down without dying due to fall damage, and a way to get back up. How do we know they DIDN'T start at the top in this case?"

Because without stairs, they wouldn't get up in the first place. And if they got up without stairs, then they got down without stairs too. I've never seen anything written anywhere about someone building a freaking staircase just to descend some stupid hill.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6gS2LPXdIc5XzlLa01NOU1CSlk/view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Q2ZYRWRyV2dRd0E/view

And actually, hmm... trolling, in its exact definition. There is only one place where this concept has been proven to exist. The real world. So by implication, Asriel learned this phrase from Chara. Ergo, Chara is a 21st century child. And again, no, this isn't likely a monster phrase. It could be, but this is primarily a real world reference, ergo, it is very plausible that it is human of origin.

"Scaffolds are made of wooden plants and metal poles. And the cliff is right next to a pool of magma. ...It would burn up."

Build it where the magma is not directly below it, where a safe ground exists. You yourself said that the MTT resort is at the bottom of a cliff. Shouldn't the resort be burning? HMMMMM?

"I agrue elevators that travel horizontrally do NOT exist in the game. F1, F2, and F3 are all directly above each other in Hotland."

Except, the elevators are literally labeled L and R, and they're also placed this way in the game. If you're getting confused by those elevator tubes, then don't be. Perhaps they go horizontally somewhere we can't see. You know, some sort of an elevator junction. I reckon that's possible to make.

"If horizontal elevators did exist in the game, then yeah, there'd be NO reason to use the elevator as proof of a vertical cliff."

Exactly. Which is why I argue that you cannot use the elevators as a proof of the cliff's shape, since you didn't even prove whether horizontal-riding elevators exist in the game. And by the looks of things, they do.

"An inconistency with the theory, no matter how small, is in fact enough to prove it wrong."

None of the "inconsistencies" you find in this are actually touching the point. If you say that the elevators are all in a single vertical column, despite their layout appearing to be horizontal as well as vertical, and despite horizontal elevators existing in the real life too, all because of your presumption which you're unwilling to change that the cliff is unclimbable, so that you could say the monsters used the CORE to bridge it instead, since according to your view of things which you're also unwilling to change, the CORE, unlike the scaffolds which I've proposed, would for some unknown reason simply not burn up, and also would be definitely built during the very first expedition too, despite the totally obvious fact, to which you're completely oblivious, that in order to build something so massive, massive preparations would have to be taken first (e.g. building bridges), which you've already dismissed anyways when you dismissed the idea of scaffolds, then I wouldn't call this an inconsistency. No, that's just some uneducated kid trying to present "smart" arguments, while totally failing in basic logic on every single step.

Or did I not understand your reasoning correctly? If not, then perhaps you should try working on your presentation techniques nonetheless, since obviously, you totally failed to convey your point?

My own point is, that everything is fine. Since there's no evidence, there's no reason to assume the elevators are stacked the way you're saying they are. In fact, it is very much safe to assume they run in an "H" shaped grid, since we can clearly see that there's a left and a right side to this system. Next, the cliff does not necessarily have to be completely vertical, as that would be quite unusual. Improbable even. And once again, there is nothing in the game that can tell us about the shape of this cliff. There isn't even any visual proof that it exists, it's all just implied. And if there are no images showcasing the cliff, then there are no images that would would tell us about the shape of this cliff either.

"After all, the push from Netwonian physics to Einstien's physics was due, in large part, to a few minor nitpicky details it got wrong. Shouldn't we do the same thing here?"

Yes, when we discovered the actual flaws that made Newtonian physics, well, flawed. I don't see any flaw in my own reasoning, but I see logical fallacies in yours.

"Wow! An actual good argument! (The one I bolded was the good argument.) Yes, this is in fact true. Why didn't I think of that? It can really only prove it was a vertical dropoff at that SPECIFIC part of it-Why not build your bridge somewhere else?"

https://puu.sh/zJTdc/2d4f57f6bd.png

Still though, a vertical elevator existing somewhere does NOT prove the verticality of the surrounding terrain. It really doesn't. The actual reason why the monsters chose to build elevators there could be, that using them is simply so much faster than going by foot.

"Why couldn't it have just been a means of transport at one point, and then turnd INTO a powerplant? Geothermal power was invented in the 1900's, but thay was using steam, not in LAVA. Lava was only used as power in.. This very decade! Which is past the 1990's. Hence, the CORE couldn't have started out this way."

Lava can be used easily to generate heat. Just because no one thought of it back then doesn't mean the monsters wouldn't either. Quite frankly, the monsters would have no other option BUT to use the magma. Us not using magma to such an extent does not mean we couldn't do it.

Next... the CORE first being just a passage way? You mean... like a bridge, with perhaps some ladders, or if not ladders, then ramps or something? I mean......... Did you just now discover what I was trying to say here the entire time? That the very first iteration of whatever laid in the CORE's place was just a bridge or something like that? Slowpoke much?

"So, time to shift the problem to where it actually exists. The fact that they literally have to cross MOLTEN LAVA to even GET to the cliff."

DO they though? Do you REALLY think they do? Do you perhaps not believe that there are simply some routes which we did not take that would go AROUND this magma? I'm suggesting this for like the 5th time now.

"Generally, you need to learn the prior knolwedge you'll need to understand something prior to giving the stuff you'll need to know to understand it."

They're books about monster history. I think the fact that they contain entire chapters about stuff unrelated to history shows they were never meant to be used for education. I also don't learn my stuff from some "omni-book" of human knowledge. Plus, there's the fact that they're highly subjective, containing personal remarks and such. As I said, they're most likely personal notes, ergo, there is no reason why the explanations should preceed the actual documentation inside them, since there are no rules whatsoever about casual documentation. Just one: the more you write, the better. Which is just a recommendation anyways. Which would actually explain why the books veer off the topic so much.

"Now I say that each individual part of Chara's story was in Volumes 6-8. Chara fell in Volume 5, Asgore and Chara's illness was Volume 6, Asriel crossing the Barrier was Volume 7, and his death was Volume 8. And, just like Volume 1 and (possibly) Volume 4, in the many pages of the book that we didn't read, because we're reading ONE page of a thick book."

Which is why I then talked about Toby. He wrote only so much for each volume. It seemed like each volume contained an independent spoiler to the plot. He didn't write actual books. So one of the missing volumes HAD to contain something about Chara. It's weird thinking about it this way, but knowing what is and isn't possible is always good.

The plot of this game is largely a mystery, but analyzing the meta of the game can be just as useful as analyzing the plot itself.

"I'm actually using induction to deduce that the standard for compilation is you don't relabel."

>using induction to deduce Something's a bit fucky here, wouldn't you say? Watch out for oxymorons. They make you look like a moron whose existence is just a waste of oxygen.

Also, there is no standard. Show me a standard.

"Those remarks are partly what made me think Gerson made it."

Yep. But I don't think he wrote an encyclopedia that would have to explain and reference every single fact it presents. He just made notes. Nothing indicates whether those latter parts were his addition or not, and it definitely doesn't show us where exactly does it talk about Chara.

"Hence, the "he couldn't have made the books because fuzzy memory" is null and void."

Fuzzy memory or not, there's no way he remembered enough to fill several books. But that's no longer the point here.

"...And, why not? He's the only historian in the entire game."

He's not a historian. He's a shopkeeper. Documenting and observing stuff is just one of his hobbies. But if he made money by writing books, he wouldn't be having a shop open. He could have moved to Snowdin and start doing something in the library, but he didn't. It just isn't likely that he wrote an entire series of encyclopedical books.

"Also, those three monsters are the only ones we know the lifespan of PERIOD. Except for Papyrus, who wasn't around to see a human. For all we know more than half the current monsters were there when the war happened. We can't say that since there's no proof they're over 1000 years, they HAVE to be under 1000 years. After all, there's no proof that they're under 1000 years either, and we already have a clear example of someone being over 1000. So.. Shouldn't we just use Occam's Razor here and say 1000's the norm? Also, Gerson's a monster, not a turtle. Undertale's a game driven by story and mechanics, not by vague symbolism. After all, we don't see Asgore and Toriel doing goat things, or Papyrus being spooky/scary because he's a skeleton."

We don't know anyone's lifespans. I personally just see young monsters, adult monsters and old monsters. By implication, the young ones probably aren't that old. I wouldn't guess Monster Kid's age to be more than 10 years. The learning curve is also important. They all behave like us, so we shall assume that they learn at the same rate as us. Most of them at least. Perhaps Moldsmals are different. But anyways, by that implication, teenagers are teen-aged. It makes sense too just from the definition. So they definitely don't remember the war. Everyone else is debatable, but Gerson kinda boasts about his age and achievements, so I'd say he, Asgore and Toriel really are the only ones to remember the war. And that's it.

Lastly, FYI, Gerson is a turtle monster. It doesn't mean he's gotta act like a turtle, but seeing that he's old in the game, and that turtles usually live long irl, I'd say Toby did rely heavily on symbolism when he worked on this game. Again, Gerson might be old solely because he's a turtle monster. If there was a monster remembering the war that doesn't usually live for long irl, then the story would be different.

"Also, while not related to history directly, it contains the knolwedge you will need to UNDERSTAND the history. Remember, prior knolwedge should be explained prior."

"Monster history." Not "Everything about monsters."

"You know, for the same reason why we use pronouns instead of repeating a noun over and over again?"

You reference the whole by its correct name. But that is often not necessary. For the most part, history is about small, localized events. True, for monsters, events spanning their entire population were more common, but still, I don't think they were common enough to warrant the use of pronouns. It was just the first move and the second move when everything happened globally. As for the rest of the history that we didn't get to see, maybe something was different there, but then again, we didn't get to see it.

"Which raises the question:If there was no hole AT ALL (sealed or not).. Then how did the monsters get underground in the FIRST place? Of we say there was a hole, but it was sealed up, it's easy-The barrier was made after the monsters were banished. That's it. Easy fix. But now..."

Perhaps they didn't think that the barrier in New Home was actually passable, since, well, it WAS a magical barrier. That said, they would probably fear any other hole, but at the same time, they would try to use them to escape (only to find out that that's impossible as well). But since the text specifically said that there aren't any holes, it implies the monsters thought the barrier is not like a globe around the caverns, but just that one entrance, else they wouldn't be talking about escaping. This also means that the hole in the ruins wasn't there at first. Else they would never write that plaque to begin with.

"Yeah, the trash was in Waterfall. They were sure no human would fall way back in the Ruins. Before they even GOT to Waterfall."

Saying that implied they had the entire underground scouted already. And besides, how could they write it THERE, when they resided in the ruins? If they wrote that during that first expedition you spoke of, then there's a good chance they did find trash during it already. Unless you say that their first expedition happened very early on, which I would personally agree with. After all, not scouting for further escape route options when danger is not imminent is kinda stupid.

All that said, I don't think your version of the story can work. If they feared humans and got into the underground through the ruins hole, then they would have settled in New Home right away. They would never bother making an entire city so close to the hole. A makeshift camp or something like that is plausible, but in the end, they wouldn't wait until 201X to move. And as I showed above, 201X did not happen a few decades after the war.

They were sealed from the New Home end, and traveled through safe routes (which we didn't get to explore in the game) all the way back to the ruins, where they founded their first city. If the hole was there, they would fear the humans and wouldn't settle there. After all, it's not just about passing through, the humans could also lift the barrier. So even if they knew they can't come through it and think the same goes for the humans, they wouldn't feel particularly safe anyways.

After that, they scouted the rest of the caverns and came to a conclusion that there indeed are no open holes, so they wrote the plaques and came back to announce it too.

After that, something happened and a hole opened up in the ruins. Knowing the humans couldn't possibly know about this one, they didn't flee someplace else just yet, but instead built the puzzles.

When Chara came, they finally stopped fearing.

What I don't understand about your version is why would they not move further than the ruins, and why would they bother writing something in Waterfall, if, as you said, they were speaking of the ruins part only? What would they be doing there anyways?

"Also, what about the fact that nothing has gotten in for CENTURIES at a time? Why couldn't THAT have been what convinced the monsters that nothing can get through?"

Just the premise of something being ABLE to flow in implies that a hole is present. There were no waterfalls back then. Or MAYBE, there were, but whoever scouted that area wasn't smart enough to realize this. Or maybe they did, but the monsters didn't want to move yet again, since it wasn't urgent, as the hole in the ruins itself wasn't urgent, even if stuff could go through it. I mean, just the assumption that the humans didn't know about the hole in the ruins is a good enough argument to support my theory. We see no fancy barrier lights there. So even if it perhaps is protected by the barrier energy, it is safe to assume the humans didn't know about this one.

And that actually gives me a new idea. Perhaps, if there are fancy lights, nothing can get through either way, but if there aren't, then it is only impossible for something to leave.

"Even if they fell through the New Home hole, we'd have the same problem. The New Home hole would serve as living proof that a natural hole did indeed exist. That the underground DOES have a natural entrance. Hence, to say it doesn't, must be meaning simply that said entrance(s) have been sealed off."

It's not a hole in this case. Just a freely walkable entrance. Whatever the intro showed you, don't take it for granted. And as I said above, perhaps they did not count this particular entrance as an open one, since, well, it doesn't really look all that open. It's just a hypnotizing wall of light.

''"Many years passed, without anyone falling. This is when they started to figure "hey, the humans PROBABLY would have attacked by now if they could. So.. The barrier PROBABLY sealed them off too. So, we have nothing to worry about! Let's move out of HOME!" Then, during the journey, the plaques were written. Of course, that assumption was utterly WRONG, as proven later on by Chara."''

Except, this doesn't account for the correlation between the move and Chara's arrival. True, they no longer feared the humans, but that doesn't mean that this was what the plaques spoke of. The plaques just (supposedly) debunk the possibility of a human falling down. This does not account for the case when the humans lift the barrier themselves and attack. So I don't think they moved because they figured this out. By all means of logic, they should have still been fearful. And I don't think they would have concluded this solely because no human arrived through the hole in the ruins either. As I said, if they built the puzzles, then they knew that humans can come and they can't go out through there. How? They observed the trash and tested this entrance themselves. And then we loop back to what I said originally. If they found a hole there, they would first test it out. Then, they would get fearful that things can come through it, since light obviously can. And the moment that something, anything fell through it, they would panic and get out of there. It is much more plausible that the hole wasn't there, which would give them enough confidence to found their new city there.

"Either that or Gerson just copied what the plaques said, because they already served as a good explanation."

Or the plaques copied Gerson. https://youtu.be/hAAlDoAtV7Y?t=17s

''"The last ones start with a "But". They had to have been preceeded by other ones. Putting it in full context, it says that they will remain trapped forever, because a human cannot fall. Because they can't, due to no entrances or exits. As if, they would need a human to fall to leave.. Which takes us to the one about reversing the spell, which is actually quite easy to deduce. The spell was made by seven mages, right? So, wouldn't it be quite logical to assume that you would need the same amount of power, that of seven human SOULs, would be what you need to undo it? Of course, things about beings with a powerful SOUL being able to leave, and anything being able to pass through the barrier would indeed have to be written after the death of Asriel, for this to make sense.. Except not really-That merely shifts the problem. Chara ALSO knew that Asriel would be able to cross the barrier with Chara's SOUL. How did they know that, if it wasn't known at the time? The monsters had to have figures that out a different way. But.. How? *True Lab theme*"''

''Or, it was changed from "nothing can enter" to "anything can enter" after they found trash in Waterfall, and deduced that stuff can pass through the barrier. Though, of course, it likely got changed AGAIN to its current form about how things with a powerful SOUL can also leave after they figured it out somehow.''

I hope we can both agree now that overwriting is why these ancient plaques contain such modern knowledge.

"Seven mages, seven SOULs."

You're assuming magic is that simple. Yes, it would be a hypothesis among them, but there's no actual way they could prove it.

"And this is the chain of logic I think Undyne used, to conclude, that we're behind humans in tech, and we got everything from them."

You think with your poop hole. Obviously anime is made up. The sole assumption that humans somehow managed to record the events of the actual anime goes way beyond Undyne's level of common sense and borders insanity. I think you may need help if you keep coming up with this kind of crap for no reason whatsoever.

Alas, perhaps you got confused on the phrase itself. When she said that anime is real, she wasn't being literal there. What she wanted to say, is that the events of anime are real. That is by Occam's razor the only correct explanation here. And it's not the first of its kind either. I see language simplifications like this all the time. So it is safe to assume that that's what Toby himself meant here when he did that part.

Again, you made a total fool out of yourself because you keep taking everything literally. Just like that one time you fiercely believed that turns in Undertale are real, and at the same time believed that the world of Undertale is more than just code. I'm sorry but certain things simply don't work together no matter how hard you try.