Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20171216194942

"A trait is the default state of a soul. It has nothing to do with soul modes. Those only change your fighting style, forcefully."

Traits are your default SOUL mode, before a monster changes what it is, like with Papyrus, Undyne, Muffet... But it is true that the connection is very weak, if it even exists at all, as proven by the inconsistencies between them.

"Of course you're not protecting the enemy, and of course the ball is the enemy in that minigame. But you see, this analogy doesn't work. In the ball game, the ball is the enemy, against which you're fighting kindly. In Undyne's battle, you're not fighting kindly against her, but you're rather protecting the soul."

Exactly, the analogy doesn't work. That's my point, you didn't turn kind because of that. You AREN'T fighting kindly against her, not before you turn green, and not after you turn green. Her changing the SOUL mode did NOT change your trait-It only changed the battle mechanics. That's my point. There's no "two-way connection". While the trait by default defines the mechanics, the mechanics cannot define the trait, as sometimes, there is no match. If SOUL modes CAUSED the traits, you'd be fighting kindly against Undyne. You aren't. Otherwise, we get the paradox you mentioned.

"To resolve the paradox, we must realize that the general motif here is kindness, not who is being protected and who's the enemy. The ball game is symbolic anyways."

It shows the defining characteristics of the trait. The real resolution t the paradox is to disregard our assumption that changing the SOUL mode changes the trait. It doesn't. Done, now the paradox is resolved-While you're in the green SOUL mode, you aren't now kind. You don't necessarily have care and concern for the enemy, like the trait shows, because green isn't your trait now-It's still red. It's just that Undyne altered your MODE. That's why it wears off when the battle ends.

"Isn't this convincing enough that the ball game, which only applies the analogy onto the ball, is wrong here, since this is not what's happening in the game? (As the symbolic target of the soul mode is not always the enemy in the game - only in the case of the yellow mode)."

There's a second conclusion you can make-SOUL modes are not synonymous with SOUL traits. That would explain these inconsistencies-Of COURSE the target isn't always what the ball game said it was, we're no longer talking about personality traits, but battle mechanics that are only loosely based off them! They're two different things! This is what I was trying to prove-The inconsistencies between SOUL traits and battle modes prove they are two different things.

(By the way, in blue SOUL trait, you're hopping and twirling, not forcing the enemy to do it, so it would make sense that YOU would be forced to jump. Alas, the green SOUL mode still proves they're inconsistent, and therefore, not the same thing.)

"It could be interpreted as bravery (which, frankly, Undyne is; she IS very brave), but the context reveals something different."

The context reveals that you're protecting YOURSELF with a shield. No kindness here-That's just self-preservation. So actually, it's closer to determination! And bravery, of course. Therefore, we have proof of mixed traits! They DO exist! It's just, once again, the most dominant trait is the winner. Or, in this case, it's Undyne's magic that's turning your SOUL green so you have to defend it. Though, perhaps to someone who's actually kind, the green SOUL will make more sense-Though I haven't seen how this can be the case yet.

"Because........ why exactly?"

Perseverance is constitution. Sort of like how you point out in your blog post. You say having both HP and persevearance would be redundant, since they're pretty much the same thing, and questioned how we can have HP since we're not a purple SOUL, and I'm saying "well, yes, they are the same thing, but the purple SOUL has an abundance of it."

"Also, you can't talk about domination if only one party is allowed to exist at any time; essentially, if there's no "struggle for power" happening."

The others do exist, they're just overshadowed by the trait that you're abundant in. There'd only really be a visible struggle for power if two traits tied. Like, an EXACT tie. If one beats out the other by even a tiny bit, it WINS. Think your typical card game of Spades. Highest card wins. There's no "struggle" between the cards for the trick, it automatically goes to the highest spade, or highest card if spades aren't there. What about poker? If Alice has a Full House, and Bob has three of a kind, do they "struggle"? No! Alice trumps Bob!! If someone has 60% bravery, 20% determination, ect... Is there a "struggle"? NO!! Bravery just trumps all the others, and is the color of the SOUL!

"This is exactly what I said above, that the ball game is only symbolic, as the soul modes don't always represent our stance against the enemy."

They don't always represent out stance against the enemy, because they don't always represent our trait.

"Besides, what DID you think the green mode is?"

Just that-A mode!

"You said it yourself, the soul modes don't change our personality (that would be silly anyways, impossible even without some sort of mind control), so in that case, they must change something else."

Or they change absolutely nothing, because they're the effect, not the cause.

"And that something else is our fighting style. The thing I was trying to forward here."

It changes battle mechanics, which once again, do not accurately represent the traits.

"And what you said hits directly the core of that problem: People can change."

They can. But it's not so common. It's reasonable that the seven who fell didn't change, at least not during their time Underground. Our personality's usually formed pretty early on, and rarely changes. If it did change, then theoretically, the SOUL colors would change in response, but only if the change was massive enough to make a new trait become dominant over the old one.

"The fact that the game "loads" when you do so doesn't prove that Frisk still has that power. It only shows that you can mess with the game in this manner."

At first, yes you could argue that closing the game isn't canon... UNTIL you take into consideration that A-Closing the game counts as a LOAD, canonically, nearly everywhere else, with characters even remembering that, like if you close the game during Flowey's tutorial, and is the only way to LOAD without dying, and, in Omega Flowey's World, you can't LOAD by closing the game. This means something significant. It shows that Flowey has the power now, and that's how HE closes the game when you die. So yes, if we can LOAD by closing the game, Frisk can LOAD. To summarize, closing the game, in of itself isn't canon-It's represented canonically by LOADing a SAVE file. Us closing the game counts as Frisk loading the SAVE file.

"What would make them so strong then? They account for a majority of the soul power needed to break the barrier."

Actually, they don't. They have the SOUL power of only ONE human SOUL. In fact, they played no part in the destruction of the Barrier, it was a combination of the six fallen humans, and the monsters combined.

"What Reset the world though? You exiting the program? Isn't that by definition breaking the boundaries of the universe, therefore proving the existence of the player - something you've been trying REALLY hard to disprove?"

It's Frisk RESETTING. When we close the game, Frisk LOADs the SAVE file. That's the only way to get back to the SAVE file menu. While closing the game isn't a canon action, just like pressing the arrow keys aren't a canon action, it has canon results. When we press right, Frisk moves right. When we close the game, Frisk goes back to the menu to either LOAD or RESET, depending on what we choose when we reopen the game. This is further evidenced by Flowey closing the game, and when we reopen it, we're at the menu, and Flowey LOADs his OWN file. LOADing files are represented as the game closing, because we're essentially "leaving" the physical world, to interact with the HUD and reload the backup SAVE we have. The moment we do this, the physical world, as it is, vanishes-Only the file remains. Once again, represented as a closing of the game.

"(e.g. Flowey talking to Chara, without there being ANY evidence that he somehow figured out that Chara was present there)"

Here's how he did it.

1-He thought Frisk was Chara. This was proven wrong.

2-He heard the narrator. We know he can see the HUD, so he should be able to see the narration. After all, Napstablook does!

3-He knows the two are separate now.

4-So, if he felt "Chara" there, but figured out YOU aren't Chara, then who else does that leave? Why, the narrator, of course!

"Asriel didn't want to replace their save file with his own, it would be pointless for the purpose of his actions. He ONLY wanted to Reset."

Asriel could have just deleted Frisk's file without replacing it-That would initiate a RESET, due to no SAVE file existing.