Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-31536324-20190306210219

"She outright list the two as separate things about DT. She specifically says that it's what allows human SOULS to persist and change fate; she is talking about DT as a whole in general. The two can be swapped and the point of the sentences wouldn't be changed at all. Her speil is essentially an inverse of the Waterfall Plaque; saying what DT does and then what it is, in contrast to the Plaque's exposition on what DT is and then what it does.

The fact that these two things are their own sentences alone spells out that they're separate things about DT. Having a form of and in a sentemce isn't the only way to convey that.'

Nothing implies that they are separated things and alphys gives you those two dt to give an accurate description of dt and implies that they complete each otehr ,the "resolve tio change fate"also doesnt make any sence with the context."

1: The fact that they're their own separate sentences, and even mentioned separately at all, is enough implication.

2: How?

2A: Oh look, a god like entity is going to erase the world and make the Underground go empty! But I don't want that to happen, so I will do everything in my conceivable power to stop that.

2B: Oh no! I'm trapped in the Underground, and might be so forever! I will not let this stand! I will do everything I can to leave and go home!

2C: Oh no, I'm dead! Wait, I'm hearing someone telling someone to stay determined. It's not directed toward me, but the voice is so wholesome and compassionate that it fills me with strength. Surely if whoever was on the receiving end of this could be determined, then I can be too! *pops in back at save point* Onward with my quest!

"Plus ONLY the will to keep living can allow to persist after death "but as long as i was determined to live,i could come back",thats not the resolve to change fate in general that allows humans to persist,while dt is Something that make the souls persist."

1: The 6 Human SOULS.

2: That's Flowey, who has no SOUL, if he had no will to live then he wouldn't be here.

3: This is not persisting, the aforementioned 6 SOULS are a better example.

4: SAVE clearly works by way of your will to live, while REFUSE works by use of your resolve to change fate. Again, how are these two not separate things? "No it isn't. This is literally just a cheap attempt to try and force teo things into being one thing. As I said, death is only a FATE/DESTINY if it's outright foretold what your end is going to be.'

death is literally a fate https://dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/dictionnaire/anglais/fate and youre actually trying to give another definition of fate so it would contradict this fact"

Fate is a predetermined event, circumstance, or happening that's to befall someone or a group of someones. Death is an inevitability, and the only way death falls into this is if it's a specifically planned death (like my examples) or an orchestrated event (ala Flowey's plan in the Pacifist Route).

"The will to live cannot change this, it's simply wanting to live, what we do subconsciously every day.'

yes it can allow you to change fate,death as it can allow you to persist after death"

That's not changing fate! The only way that would be so is if you went through an event (like being kidnapped and shot in a critical area) that made death a certainty, and you instead managed to survive long enough to live.

"Except for Flowey outright saying you could do X to change the ending and get a different one. As well as the Asriel fight post first REFUSE in general.'

the dt subtance alphys was talking about has Nothing to do with that,dt shes talking about is de-termination,so the ability to overcome death"

Except it does, because she outright says it. "The resolve to change fate" - Alphys.

"2: The mere fact that she's LISTING them shows that they are separate applications and functions of DT.'

which means Nothing,she was just trying to accurately explain it."

Then she would have only said one and not the other, not both.

"You can use two définitions in a line that basically means the same thing but worded differently"

Except they don't.

"Except for the vey clear application of the real world definition via SPARING and the quote about making monsters not want to fight you (i.e lowering their Determination to do so).'

again,this has no relation with the substance she extracted from the souls,thats another kind of dt"

"The resolve to change fate" - Alphys.

"1: Both are a form of firmness of purpose. Just specific forms. 2: How does that make any sense? I'm confused here.'

the dt she extracted is specifically the will to keep living not just the firmess of purpose,if it was firmess of purpose in genral then she wouldnt have to call it at all as firmess of purpose already has a name:determination"

"I believe this is what gives their SOULS the ability to persist after death...The will to keep living...The resolve to change fate...Let's call this power Determination." - Alphys

So it IS determination yet at the same time it's NOT determination? Both the will to keep living and resolve to change fate are different forms of firmness of purpose. If it's one then it's also the other, because both are DT. You're not making any sense.

"DT, so they're related by nature, just not so intricately that one can't be without the other.'

where is it said?And alphys only extracted one subtance from the souls not two"

Both are stated as parts of DT, so it's obvious, both are a part of the same substance that can be applied in many ways. There's no second substance that can do this other thing that DT can do, that'd be stupid.

"Willingness to continue =/= Firmness of purpose.'

willigness to continie is a result of firmess of purpose.And in undertale dt is the resolve to chnage fate,not firmess of purpose in general"

Again, both are forms of firmness of purpose, and even then resolve is used in the second definition. So firmness of purpose is the underlying attribute of it all.

"It's a memory! Chara explicity says that Frisk DT and SOUL are why they came back, and since SAVE goes to the LIVING being that falls into the Underground, Frisk is the one with the power itself. Chara COULD use it since they're attached to Frisk, and the ones getting the LV. But they only get power by Frisk getting EXP. "

"that doesnt matter whatveer frsik dt was Something that brought chara back ,that wasnt their own dt because they were unconsious"

Yes, it was.

"but the fact is they are the one who bring frisk back to the save point when they dies"

This is not a fact.

"as this message is adressed to chara and not frisk and as chara is the "demon that comes when people call it name",thus they come when asgore call their name."

It's a memory! No one is calling them!

"AND STOP WITH LV ARGUMENT,holy shit stop to overestimate this thing ,in the game its only allows you to be emmotionaly distant that everything that is said it does"

It's also what allows Chara to destroy the world. So no, I'm not overestimating anything. Chara themselves say that they ARE the LV, EXP, ATK, DEF, GOLD, and STATS that increase with each kill. "1: It's what brought him back to life for one.'

which means Nothing"

If by nothing, you mean everything, then yes it does.

",of course he needed otehr poeples dt to come back to life as he was unconcious"

You mean dead.

"but he can clearly have it when he came back,after all dt is a feeling that all,everyone can have it"

Yes, because he was injected with it; and the same can literally be said about all of the other traits.

"2: He has no fear of death. "

iam a little bit tired of talking with ignorant poeple who understands Nothing in this fandom. Flowey explicitly says that the Reason why he was determined to live is because he feared to die,because he didnt knew what would happen if you dissapear and he outright state he was determined to live"but as long as i was determined to live"

That's not a fear of death, that's the fear of the UNKNOWN.

"Exactly, and Flowey has it due to thr DT he was injected with, nothing more.'

because he has his own psycological feeling of keeping himself alive,every single living"

From the DT he was injected with.

"He meant as in what these six put together make.'

Nothing implies that its supposed to make anything,"

The six traits are outright name dropped and implied to be what make up the seventh trait via both flags. You get the 7th Trait via the other 6 in some form, or exhibiting the trait itself more than the others. The SOUL and flags wouldn't have a seventh color if there wasn't a seventh trait it was associated with. And the 1st Red Flag wouldn't name drop the other traits if they didn't have something to do with it.

The red trait is clearly its own trait, there wouldn't be a Red SOUL and flag if their wasn't, and has its own identity and attributes. The mystery is what it is. Again, the only candidate is Determination because it matches with everything.

"tif frisk trait was dt then they would use other tactics to achieve their goal."

And what ate these imaginary tactics?

"And their whole theory was tied to forced interprEtations."

How so?

"1: Playing a game to get the most elusive accomplishment =/= firmness of purpose. - MagomaevaAnima.'

oh really because you say so?"

Because that's what you're saying.

"Frisk personality is a mix of all 6 traits and that doesnt matter what you say as its literally explictly stated by the ball game"

No, it's stated that they achieved the quota for thr Red Trait by using a combination of the 6 traits, and the trait itself in the case of the second flag.

"2: The second flag all but screams that resolution is how you got it, and here's the thought process for my point on this' its only says that frisk is trying to be themself,"

2nd Flag: Try as you might, you continue to be yourself.

"Despite your attempts, your are firm in who you are," is essentially what it's saying. "What a coincidence, the second flag did just that.'

no it didnt,it nevr says that frisk was determined to get any Victory but that tehy are trying to stay themself"

My mistake, the 1st flag.

"2: The 'stupid things' are all either people striving toward a goal (mouse and the cheese) or something relating to your goal of going home (playing in the leaves or making snow constructs, a happy coincidence, an obstacle to overcome, or something that would remind you of home - however strange it might be). To Frisk they would make them more determined, because they serve as a push to pursue their goal in some form or fashion. Everyone gets empowered by different things, react differently to different things. Frisk just took these things as a reason to not stray from their goal.'

i dont know how "partacking in a worthless garbage"is suposed to give you dt,"

Again, you are not Frisk, no one is Frisk.

"besides it never says that they incraese frisk dt but literally that they give them dt" it fills you with determination"and if they were really filled with determination because they wanted to return home,then the narration would say so"

1: Why?

2: You do know "fills you with Determination" is to mean that you're becoming more determined, right? Outright saying that would be redundant. Frisk is already determined, so they're becoming more determined through these things.

"3: Frisk and Chara have red SOULS, both are constantly and consistently associated with Determination, both are shown to never flinch or waver in achieving their goals.'

1.All humans are associated with dt"

Wrong, all humans HAVE DT, same with monsters. Frisk however is explicitly associated with DT; like how the other SOULS are associated with their trait.

"2.Achieving goals is not the same as "having the will to live on"or "resolve to change fate"

1: Your goal is to live, so you're determined to live.

2: You're goal is to change fate, so you're determined to change fate.

3: Read that last one again, "never flinch or waver in achieving their goals," i.e firmness of purpose. Exactly what "the will to live" and "resolve to change fate" are.

"3.Frsik is honestly never showed of wanting to achieve any goal exept in the pacifist ending"

And wanting to leave in all of the Neutral Routes, and kill all monsters in Genocide.

"The other SOULS already have traits associated with them, and DT is the only canon candidate left that lines up with the flags, Frisk and Chara, and even the color of their SOULS.'

but dt DOESNT HAS to be a trait,its a feeling just like fear,joy,hope etc....A POWER all humans have and that allows humans to persist after daeth,just because dt is mentionned doesnt mean its a trait"

Again, it's the only candidate, and it all lines up. The only question i if it actually IS.