Board Thread:Wiki Discussion/@comment-39447774-20190514202810/@comment-27136653-20190606190207

>He was still fighting to keep Chats around because he cares for him before being saved

Correct. And why? Because he had a soul.

>Idk,maybe frisks friends to be in him forever?the world?"the whole world is ending ",frisk to do the same thing over and over?

If you say "idk", then I take it that you don't know.

>Sorry but who were the one who said that flowery couldn't kill himself if he could feel joy,so I showed you that people can kill themselves although they feel joy

And I said that you're wrong. Losing joy isn't the only reason why people commit suicide, obviously. But if they do lose it, the chances, that they will, are high.

>I can personally be sad when I fail to achieve anything or when people mock me or lower my self esteem,I can feel joy while watching comedies,all those emotions are independent from love as well.Sure for some people love is their meaning to live,the only thing that bring them joy but you don't HAVE to feel love to feel joy.Or if its required give me some proofs or studies that shows its the case because your argument is low yet

What is your deal? Are you trying to disprove Toby Fox here? He made it this way, I'm just repeating it. I didn't make this shit up, he did.

>I AGREE that grief is related to love since its caused by a death of someone but sadness is different as it can be caused by different things.

The chemical principle is the same. It's not about the cause, it's about the mechanism that produces this feeling. This mechanism is what Flowey had lost.

>And i wasnt talkibg about grief at all i said that the way he says that he killed himself because he couldnt feel love sounds more like sadness than anger.And in fact NO ONE kill themself because if anger.

Grief =/= anger. Grief is the ultimate expression of the lack of joy, and has nothing to do with anger, apart from being equally as explosive.

>No he didnt,its just that he feel more guilty about what heve done to others when he regains his compassion

In other words, you are confirming it. He regained the negative emotions too as a result of regaining the posititve ones.

>Then wheres the causal link between the ability to feel love and joy

Love brings joy. That's the best I can simplify it.

>Ask psycopaths who arent capable to feel love if they can feel joy ,then you will find out that you re wrong.

Once again, the real world isn't Undertale. I'm just saying what Toby Fox is saying, or rather implying. That if you are a monster and you lose your soul, you lose the ability to feel genuine joy. You can still entertain yourself, but it won't be the same.

If you keep this narrative that what I'm saying is dumb because the real world disproves it, then expect me to do the same the next time you make up ANY theory about Undertale. I shall respond that it makes no sense because that's not how the real life works. Is that ok with you?

>Would you keep using your own definitions of feelings just to make your argulent valid?

Definitions? No, logic. The part of himself that Flowey had lost prevented him from feeling something. So, if we wanna be logical, then we must conclude that nothing else can give him that feeling back. The feeling of self-fulfillment that love brings? Not love, nor anything else, can make him feel it. I'm calling it joy for simplicity, and you should know what kind of joy I'm speaking of. Not just any joy, but specifically the kind of joy that love brings. Plus, the since the neutral state of the mind is neither this nor the opposite, then this part which he had lost must also bring the opposite, ergo, he must have lost grief too.

It's pure logic, not science. And I won't bother repeating this again. It just bloats my responses.

>Thats everything but logic as love is independant from joy and sadness

No it isn't, love is EXPRESSED through joy and grief. So if it is said that someone has lost the ability to feel love, then logically, they must have lost joy and grief.

>Jesus fucking christ,STOP IT .Thats exactly the SAME THING

It's literally not.

>Even the oxford dictionary describes entainement as "1The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment"

Well that's weird, because I can entertain myself without feeling joyful, in the self-fulfilling sense. So maybe, you have misunderstood what I meant by joy. When I say that joy is not the same as entertainment, then it's your job to realize what I mean by that like any other normal person, instead of assuming that I'm retarded. On one end, you have entertainment, and on the other, you have the feeling that love gives you. There's a difference between the two.

>Sorry but i have no reason to not trust his OWN words" Their compansionship was AMUSING for a while"

Then why did he leave? If it made him feel something, then why did he also say that they made him feel nothing? He left them because they couldn't make him feel anything. Was it entertaining? Yes. Did it give him the joyful feeling of love? No, it didn't. I trust his words, I just interpret them differently. When he says that he can't feel anything, when the ENTIRE GAME revolves around the fact that he cannot feel love, then logically, there cannot be anything even remotely similar to this feeling left in him, since such would contradict what he said, that he cannot feel love.

So in other words, when he says that it was amusing, he meant that it entertained him, not that it made him feel love.

>Because you do?

Yes.

>At least iam not ignoring all the instances where he shows other feelings than anger or fear

I'm not either.

>And you didnt give any evidences that he cant feel joy

I don't need to, it's logical. It's not my fault you are stubborn and refuse to realize how simple the entire issue is. If he can feel joy, then he can feel love, because love sparks joy.

>He killed himself because he couldnt love his own parents,not just because he couldnt feel love.

Well duh, of course he wouldn't have any reason to love strangers.

>And people DONT KILL themselves because they dont feel hapiness ,they kill themselves because they are sad and depressed.

Happiness =/= joy. And of course that just because you don't feel joy doesn't mean you must be sad and kill yourself because of it. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, that Flowey's inability to feel both joy AND grief is what made him kill himself. In other words, his frustration from not being able to express this emotion either in its positive terms, or the negative ones, is, what ultimately killed him.

Also, grief =/= depression. I do think that he felt sadness and was depressed, but he was unable to fully express this in the form of grief. Depression is an overall state of the body and the mind, whereas grief is a momentary emotion. So logically, losing the ability to feel love doesn't imply the loss of depression. But it does imply the loss of everything else associated with joy, as well as the polar opposite of joy, which is grief.

>And youre pretty good at creating biased definitions to make your points valid but that arent stated anywhere

Well, it's easier to say "joy", instead of "the self-fulfilling feeling of the neuro-chemical reaction that occurs when you are happy to see a family member or a friend". Or do you have a problem with my nomenclature?

>What do you mean by "true joy"if its "strong joy",than i agree that he need his ability to feel love but other things can bring him joy aswell even though its on different degree

>AGAIN JOY IS REQUIRED TO BE ENTERTAINED

I'm not talking about that kind of joy, I'm talking about the one that love brings you, which is very different from the one that for example playing Minecraft might give you.

>Grief#Sadness,Grief is caused by tbe death of someone while sadness alone can be caused by many things.

I agree. I never said he cannot feel sadness or cannot be depressed. Because that's not the same as feeling grief.

>Compassiong is a result of empathy

It literally isn't. Compassion is defined by the dictionary as a consequence of sympathy, not empathy:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/compassion

So by definition, when Flowey tried helping others, it's because he recognized their hardship and wanted to help. THAT is the definition of compassion. You don't need to have empathy to be compassionate. And I'm even speaking from personal experience.

Moron.

>Dont talk about dopamine because Flowey is a freaking FLOWER that doesnt have any brain and thats Undertale where magic,time travel powers exist.

Of course, I just wanted to specify what kind of feeling I'm talking about, to make sure we're on the same page here.

>Undertale#Real life and Flowey is a FREAKING FLOWER ,he doenst have any brain so nor dopamine.

I'm not talking about dopamine anymore though. Flowey lost the ability to feel love. When others give him love, he's unable to "feel" it. But he's still able to give it back, although again, it wouldn't make him feel anything.

In other words, he had lost the thing that mediates love, joy. We both agree that this isn't because of dopamine, that this is an intrinsic property of monster souls. But he lost it nonetheless.

That is my entire point. That he lost something, and now he's unable to feel the thing that mediates love, which is joy.

So logically, nothing can give him joy anymore if he lost it.

(And of course, remember which kind of joy I'm talking about. Not just any kind of joy, but the kind that love gives you specifically, the one that vastly differs for example from the joy that comedy might give you.)