Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180908203443

"Believe it or not, sometimes we have to make up new rules to explain the canon. I try not to do it though. Whenever I'm presented with two options, I go with the one that assumes less. But here, I've had no other plausible alternative to go with."

Hint:The one that assumes less is the one that simply assumes a given:Correlation does not imply causation.

"What Sans said related to turns and the battle system. Most of these that you listed don't."

Which means they're probably not canon.

"The world turns black and white, because if turns and buttons and everything is real, then why shouldn't this be real too?"

Let's just take another look at Toby's quote:And please, look at that link. You don't need to just take my word for it-Look at the Kickstarter for yourself!

"Use the format of a video game to tell the story: traditional fourth-wall breaking tropes such as "SAVING," "EXP," and "LV" are an intergrated part of the game's world."

So, what does that tell us? Tropes that traditionally break the fourth wall.. But not in the usual sense-Toby is giving us a certain category-They're game mechanics, that in some way affect the outcomes of things. LV makes you stronger, SAVing lets you undo anything that happens.. Turns neatly fits in as well, as a binding mechanic that changes the gameplay and mechanics of the world. Color changes? Oh, please, the fight would be the exact same either way. And if that looks like a stretch, look back at Chara's quote about twilight shining through the barrier for evidence that this interpretation is what was intended.

"And if by that line you mean twilight shining through the barrier, either Chara doesn't see the world in black and white, or noticed it before the battle began."

Is, not was. So that means the former is the case. Yet, Chara seems fully aware of the HUD, as evidenced by their line about reading it in Sans' battle, and Chara's name on the stat screen shows we're not the only one with the powers of the HUD..

"Next, the narrations, once again, are spoken out. More precisely, inside Frisk's head. It's not text, it's neural synapses."

Why can't it be text inside Frisk's head?

"Same for the checks, that's Chara speaking, not typing on a keyboard."

The checks are indeed audible, as seen by Nasptablook's response to it.

"And soul modes don't even need any meta explanation, unlike the battle system. Soul modes simply dictate how you can and cannot move your soul (so it's magic, not battle-system-related restrictions), you don't inherently need a battle system for that."

Trying to look at purple magic without a clear box would imply that there are infinitely many webs, traveling at an infinite distance.

"Read it again."

Read the RESPONSES to the "proof" while you're at it.

"Yes. I merely said it doesn't fluctuate with humans, I never said it doesn't for monsters. Heh I mean, what makes you think human and monster souls work the same way?"

That's why we cited Asriel as well. I mean, sure, I suppose I could have said that if monsters' DT fluctuated, so then would the total DT of monsterkind, but that wouldn't really be a strong argument, especially when you consider that the seemingly random fluctuations would even out with a population so large. ...Asriel's the proof that it works for humans.

"Yes, but the overall amount of DT within Frisk's soul stays constant, because human souls are used as a metric (meaning they cannot vary, else it would not be stated that 7 human souls are needed, if due to their variation anywhere between 1 and 100 souls could be needed for the barrier, depending on how particularly determined they were upon death)."

The overall amount of SOUL power within Frisk's soul stays constant. For the same reasons you just gave.

"With monsters, it clearly varies, because their bodies are their soul, so if Undyne always had the same amount of DT as she had there, she would have melted upon birth."

Indeed, it DOES clearly vary.

"You must be blind then! For how long has this thread ran? And many other threads of mine? I assumed that since you joined this discussion, you have read them all. Because, you know, I was using proofs from those other threads in this discussion, instead of explaining everything from the beginning for your own comfort, because I didn't start talking in this thread to you, it was to THA, who was the one I was debating with in those other threads."

Those had responses, though.

"I cannot cite this. THA said that Toby said that turns are canon, not me."

Go ahead and read the link I gave you. I'll even tell you which section to look at:It's under "Features".

"I'm sorry, I cannot. I cannot accept that if the battle system is real, the overworld acts differently from it (e.g. Frisk not being stopped by invisible boundaries from leaping off a cliff). Because if everything had to be exactly how we see it on the screen, the only explanation left would be that UT is actually about some invisible player figure, who plays Undertale and makes the exact same movements as us during it. All because UT's laws are more reminiscent of a computer program, rather than a real functioning world."

..I'm going to refer you to Malice's response on the matter. They responded to it directly, and in a way that I just can't top. Then, combine that with my analysis on what Toby actually said in the Kickstarter, and the razor I've been explaining how to use several times now:If the characters explicitly use these mechanics to their advantage, IN-STORY, and/or EXPLICITLY explain it, it's canon. Otherwise, there's no reason to assume it is.

"But if we abolish this idea and go with my interpretation, its world would be closer to a real world, rather than a computer code. Because what is simpler? A universe that behaves like a computer program but isn't a computer program, or a universe that straight up IS a computer program? Obivous answer: the latter."

I've taken out the mechanics that seem to flat-out imply a simulation, on the grounds that they were never explicitly mentioned or abused in the first place, and went to assign a few physical properties to the mechanics that remained. It's only as much of a computer code as our own universe.

"Yes. Did he not? Omega Flowey had the control. So did Asriel. But neither of them could reset, because they had composite souls."

Omega Flowey had control, and Asriel didn't. You can LOAD out of Asriel's fight, but you cannot do the same with Omega Flowey.

"Yes, it's an assumption, but that's what theories are all about. You make a theory based on observations, which allows you to PREDICT certain other things about the world."

Too bad we can't test those predictions. I guess we're stuck at phases 1 and 2-Observation, and forming a hypothesis based on those observations. Sometimes we can experiment on the matter, and that's how we can debunk theories, but not everything can be proven.

"For example, Higgs boson. People predicted its existence, and until only a few years ago we had no idea if our theory-based prediction was true."

And it was natural-If there's a particle for all the other forces of nature, there SHOULD be a particle for gravity. Besides, SOMETHING has to be making all of that mass.. "Same for me. I have constructed this theory, and I am predicting that Omega Flowey couldn't reset. Of course, here we are missing the confirmation step, because the game never did and never will confirm it."

And then comes a simpler theory that predicts Omega Flowey COULD reset, based upon the standard model of S/L/R being connected, that also has no direct flaws.