Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180709085135

"Which patience?"

My patience with you -_-

"Then why did you just link them together?"

That's mostly for the chakra concept. You see, there's another issue. The chakras work well for psychology, but soul traits don't. Still, the connection is there, and I like exploring it. Similarly to how I like exploring the connection between the soul traits and the infinity stones. The latter works for magic, but not so much for the human soul traits. And then there's of course the combat styles, as well as musical scale degrees (which I haven't even tackled yet). That's why the connections between the same colors in different topics are only loose. Something always has to be tinkered with in order to make it work, but the core idea is always there.

"Don't you recall saying something like that?"

I do and I don't believe that that's the case. By "another false flag", I was hinting at your accusation of the monsters making up their history.

"I thought you said we were supposed to EXCLUDE the meta."

That's what I meant by that.

"So.. more gameish than even Glitchtale depicts it as?"

Yes. Because it's a game, unlike Glitchtale.

"The world beyond was explicitly mentioned by the monsters."

So was the war. Yet, neither is in the game. It's just words.

"There's a lot of Floweys out there."

That was more of a call towards the player.

"And remember, if the game calls attention to it, it's canon."

The idea of it, at most. Undertale is a huge paradox. On one end, it's acting like a game, and on the other, it's trying to act like it's real. This is unlike for example Oneshot, which is explicitly a game, and the "real" portion of it is only ever shown in dreams. So there's no issue there. But with Undertale, we gotta pick and choose. I mean, I would say we should strive for both, if we didn't try it already. We clearly failed at trying to preserve both, that is beyond obvious. The game can get away with this, because it's just a game. But theories and stories cannot. It's never gonna be the same, nothing will ever be the same as the canon, from principle.

"not the expansive world Toby had in mind when making the game"

If that's the case... where is that world? Why did Toby go practically silent afterwards? I gave up on believing he will ever expand this universe. MAYBE we might get a prequel, but even that's highly wishful and debatable.

He did one QnA, and released one art book about Undertale. So much for the expansive world he wanted to share with us, isn't that right?

I'd say he has no idea what to make, because he never planned Undertale to take off as much as he did, as he said himself. He has nothing planned, and will move on to other projects of his.

"The lore WAS"

Nope. It's making no sense and it's constantly falling apart in our hands even three years after the game's release. It's clear, the plot of Undertale is not its strongest feature.

"where it's canon that it's all a game"

That's not the case. It's both. Which is why it's so confusing.

"I didn't mean one piece of evidence that gives an astonishing revealation. All the pieces have been found. We just have to put them together."

They don't fit. We also have too little info to come up with a single theory that answers everything.

"They're all the same."

Look at them again.

"Frisk DOESN'T disobey our commands"

Yeah they do. All the time in fact. And my name is not "Frisk." If I was meant to roleplay them, then the hell? Or if you think that Frisk is not a representation of the player, then we agree. But in that case, we must also agree on the fact that they are also steering the story and we don't have a full control over them.

"We don't destroy the world"

Hence why I put the word "player" into quotes. Chara is the player stereotype. I thought you knew that by now.

"Flowey's actually a better parallel to the player, though that's because he had the powers of the player at the time."

He can't leave the world though. We can. So can Chara. With enough power, that is.

"Um, no, Frisk is totally evil in this run as well."

The polar opposite of the pacifist route. Frisk's personality is pretty much irrelevant in the genocide run, as we all know.

"If the game says turns are canon, that belongs in the inner circle."

And yet, they are a meta mechanic. I cannot imagine a single physical law that would conditionally prohibit the simultaneity of actions. Looks more like a gaming mumbo jumbo to me, rather than anything I could describe with the real world mechanics. And I tried, believe me. This is one of the few parts of the meta that are inexplicable to me.

"That's assuming I only have 100 points and must spread them around, choosing one or the other, when in fact there are places where both collide, and if I place a point there, I get the point in both places."

Doing it the way you did it combines them. You get 50% for the in-game effort, because you could go even more in-canon. And you get 50% for the meta effort, because you tried to even think about steering away from the meta.

And I used percentages, not points.

"How? All I need is one hole in my theory, and that'll prove I didn't solely use the canon."

(I've got my ins and outs mixed here, soz about that).

The meta must stay meta. If you try forming a logical theory, you are already breaking the meta.

"because at that point, the roles are swapped-there, the goal is to tell a creative and compelling story"

So you agree that that was not Toby's main focus point? Because the meta seriously restricts us from developing the story creatively. We are locked into the rules that work only in a gaming setting.

"there IS a universe out there"

No there isn't. It's just a game. Don't lose your marbles just yet, you're too young for that.

"Except for utilizing the little information we DO have about it, to give a vague description on how it is like."

Which is all pointless when you realize that his main focus was the game as a whole, and not the story.

"He isn't even a character meant to have a story."

Exactly. Undertale is not meant to be developed. It's just what it is.

"I haven't spotted any yet"

I did. It's mainly the meta versus the story. Or the story versus the story.

"Because a MAJOR point is the choice of the player. How can you do that anywhere else?"

Hmm... the Henry Stickmin series perhaps? Or I'm sure there's also plenty of other games that have multiple endings. Undertale cannot be the only one.

"I don't recall anyone interpreting "care and concern" as passion."

What. Well, you can always randomly change the subject, idc.

"The first step is to take the game, as is, and turn it into a universe."

Begone the HUD then.

"Then, stuff not actually mentioned in the newly found universe (which is just a carbon copy of the game, brought to life) can be disregarded."

Neither was the intro, nor the surface, nor that house in the distance visible from the cliff that's the entrance to the Annoying Dog cave in Snowdin. And neither was the stupid slashy mechanic in fact.

"However, since the world is no longer a game, its powers must be converted to physical and/or magical abilities, like, say, determination."

That's a thing in the game too though.

"Game-like properties does not make it a game."

So... I guess H2O doesn't make water water? ... That's literally all it is, nothing else. Similarly, Undertale's properties are too similar to a game no matter which direction you look at them from. Ergo, it is a game.

"They never mentioned a player."

Thank god for that indeed.

"How would the characters ACTUALLY respond to a world like this"

"The heck man where did that hit come from?" "Hey now what, why can't I hit you again?" "Hey no cheating, where did you pull that bun from?" "Hey this monster right next to me just got brutally murdered but I ain't gonna respond or change my behavior or anything because I wasn't in love with it... looks good to me!" "Sorry pal, you can only ask me these 4 questions. No more, no less. Wait, why is that the case? ... Oh well."

Something like this?

"but most monsters wouldn't go on and research that"

Yes because everyone else besides S and G are absolute sheeple that don't question anything at all.

"Yeah, he's a lot closer to Scott Cawthon than whoever Scott Hawton is-You'd win that bet."

Oh shap you got me there. Here, try remembering this one: Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz.

"Toby never did that, neither do I believe we should look for ciphers or brighten up images of the game's trailer."

Yeah... I don't think the dog's hiding any more bones than it barks about.

"Just look at the evidence, and find out how it fits together."

Thanks, no. I tried already. Now is your turn to fail.

"Kind of like Sudoku, if you think about it"

Yes, I also thought of that analogy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlyTq-xVkQE We have less than 17 clues. That's our case, unfortunately.

"That's NOT giving it an explanation, that's removing parts of canon."

No, that's called slapping the story so that it finally starts making some sense. Because it made no sense before that. The game was bordering the meta too much and it was always colliding with the theories, while theories about the meta were always deadpan simple, because you could always refer to the game's code to find out how and why everything works.

"Sans shows the opposite."

There is no Sans either.

Jk he simply meant something else by that line. Not the actual in-game turns, but just the idea of us striking him, and him striking us.

"Perhaps, but there has to be some reason why pressing these hallucinations has a real effect."

Magic. Magical hallucinations.

"You ARE breaking it, though."

Yep. I'm breaking the meta. I'm tired of it at this point. You should try it too, it's very liberating.

"Explain how Sans took advantage of the turn-based system, if it doesn't exist, and how we basically cheated the system by moving the box."

Well, we striked eventually. From the non-meta perspecive, that was just us waiting for him to fall asleep, because we saw that he was tired. And him speaking it's never gonna be our turn? Well, that just means he's ready for anything we do, so we may as well give up, due to the fact that we couldn't hit him a single time before (so what's the chance we will do this time, right?).

There's your non-meta explanation. Kinda cheesy, but compromises must be made.

"In the quatum state, small have appeared and then disspeared out of nothing-Zero matter turning into positive mass and negative mass, before they both vanished."

Yeah, single particles. But even then, they're virtual, not real. They're just a standing wave in the quantum foam.

"But it doesn't necessarily make it fake. It just means that some god/godess exists in their world."

Yep, and computers are the only thing we know of that can generate a standing text.

"Monsters are more fluent in magic, does that mean magic is inversely related to DT?"

Kinda? You need it to pass through the barrier after all.

"It's the game giving us a flashback"

Yeah, it's a brief look into the past. But who's past? Who lived throughout all those images? If Asriel lived through the flashbacks he had in the fight, then who did here? God? That's equivalent to saying that it was no one's flashback, and the game simply gave us some starting info here. Just as I said.

"Hence why we need to piece together the evidence the game laid out."

gl w/ that

"Alphys is a counterpoint."

She's a person. This is a rule we observed. Ergo, she's wrong. We are NOT changing the facts just because someone got it wrong so that they could be right again.

"Yep. You've done it. We can do that with anything if we say the game is fully self-enclosed."

I did that because you did it with red = DT. But now you keep saying that it's wrong to do that? Pardon me, I must have missed your sarcasm.

"Toriel actually knows the difference."

Yes, she is not that insane. This feeling of knowing things that haven't happened is what she meant. And that couldn't have been a Chara flashback, that was a legitimate reload deja vu.

"The Asgore problem"

I mean, we can just say he was too strong of an opponent and be done with it. Plus the fact that he also could have been dodging them (similar to Sans, after all, Asgore knows about the buttons, so he should know about this too... maybe the reason he didn't dodge during our battle was because of the guilt, which was distracting him).

If you wanna stick to the meta being canon, that is.

"Why didn't Undyne?"

She did. All the major characters did. Asgore double so, as he nods to us telling him we fought before all the time (he doesn't remember, but isn't surprised and understands why it's happening).

"Dark. As if there was no sunlight to come out."

As if the cave continued there, until reaching the surface. Or as if there was an actual (although pointless) door there. I thought the barrier generates its own light? Hmm...

"the garden isn't visible at all"

The garden was elsewhere.

"we were sent back to Room 1"

Or carried there.

"you suggest we were sent past the Barrier"

I don't. The game does. I suggest that's a plot hole.

"Yes, it's pretty much the same thing. That's my point. My theories are supposed to show how the game canon is like."

But we don't want a soup. We want a steak. Something we can make more sense out of.

"Altering the nature of canon would go against that."

So be it if the canon doesn't make any sense. Bad dog, the lore of your game sucks.

"I'm analyzing Undertale"

Well you're late to the party, there. As I said, there is nothing left for us. Start doing fanon rather.

"Things are quantized here too."

Literally nothing is quantized in the real-world macro cosmos.

"Also, we really don't know how things work outside the Underground."

The same way I assume. Unless you'd like to brief me on your "post-pacifist surface features no HUD" theory?

"That could be interpreted as the game being.. sentient..?"

Yeah. That's the meta. The game is sentient. Break the meta once and you may do it any number of times you'd like to, because what's the difference, right? I mean, we may both agree on this one, but I'm sure some fans will disagree and say that Flowey actually changing the name of the game is canon... the same people who believe that crashes are canon, probably.

"When your theory about what the traits are doesn't actually match the trait description, and flat-out contradicts them, there are objectively holes. Also, who's to say what's scientific and what isn't here, where is the science police?"

The scientists. There are no scientists here however, we are all on our own.

"It never says you used the opposite of chaos, just that you ended chaos. That's what I meant."

Good then. Although I must say, it still fits.

"Look up the definition of mayhem. You'll see there's no fit."

Synonyms don't have to have a textbook definition like that. Ever read anything at all? Metaphors are all over the place in literary works, and so are exaggerations, such as "the mayhem of ball". And it's not limited to just those. You can use them anywhere to sound more fancy. I know my own about this and I'm telling you, that's a perfectly valid synonym.

"As memories start to become less concrete, one can "recall" false things about what happened."

That's what time reversal resolves. I'm talking about lies that one purposely hides. This isn't about resolving "I don't know" situations, but about knowing when someone makes something up on the spot and when not. Maybe they fully believe the thing that's acutally a lie. In such case, yellow wouldn't reveal a lie, because it's subjective for each person.

"Or it's not anything at all, because Infinity Stones from Marvel don't match traits from Toby Fox."

We aren't actually doing them, we are just expanding the powers of magic. Something I've established in my AU. The infinity stones thing is just a coincidence.

"He HAS. Through Sans."

I don't recall.

"I have a feeling you would call it a plot hole if we took away that dialouge"

No? Such plot hole is not meta. It's purely an unexplained story part.

"How can you question what you don't know even exists?"

The monsters must know. They aren't stupid. Can't attack the human? Why exactly is that? And how are they attacking us without us being able to defend ourselves?

"The same pseduo-math that makes a monster with a human SOUL powerful enough to destroy an entire village."

I'm not seeing any numbers behind that.

"But, tell me, what's the thing saying what file's been saved and loaded if it's not the HUD?"

That's it, no?