Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-29788596-20160906011125/@comment-32182236-20200213170817

Then why do they want to destroy humanity as a society?

For the exact same reason why they hate humanity as a society! It's as simple as that!

Now, can you explain how they could have reasonably grown to hate humanity in the first place? That's something that'll need to be explained, whether they want to kill humanity or not.

And there's no evidences that Chara wish to cross the barrier. All they do is asking Frisk to take whatever path they want, not necerally the one that can led to Frisks freedom and theres no way for Chara to know the game story and endings.

But doesn't EVERY path other than Genocide lead to Frisk's freedom? Or do you think Frisk really didn't cross the Barrier in Neutral after all?

This doenst fit with the Rousseau trope the game is using because in this trope, everyone can be reedemened.

MAY be using.

And how do we know that they crossed the moral event horizon?

We don't, which is why I considered the alternative where it is possible to save them, though after the Pacifist Ending, in the first place.

If we knew they crossed the horizon, I wouldn't even consider the idea of them being reformed after the ending-That'd be impossible if they crossed the horizon. But when you claim they HAVE to be redeemable, you're making an affirmative claim, putting the burden of proof on you.

I'm giving you all many different possibilities. They all point to the same conclusion, but you get to pick which path to take.

The genocide run is already done at this point, so we cant take this as an argument.

So after the Genocide Run, Chara crosses the Moral Event Horizon?

Guess Rosseau was wrong after all, then.

They still let Frisk true reset in souless pacifist run despite having their soul and despite having the ability to use this power as shown by the genocide end, which doenst makes sence if they really have vengefull motives or something.

Perhaps the reason why we couldn't reload the world back into existence after Genocide was because when they destroyed the world, they also deleted our SAVE file, so that we couldn't just load it. That'd also explain why when the world is recreated, it acts like a True Reset-The file was completely gone, and everything else with it. So the only way to come back would be to start completely anew.

And why wouldnt they take over them and use their body to kill everyone when they have enough lv then instead of helping them?

They can't.

As other parts of your post show, you seem to be quite confused as to my take on the matter.

First off:Chara can't possess Frisk at all without their SOUL.

"But you said they killed Sans, Asgore, and Flowey!"

Did I say they did it in Frisk's body? No, I didn't.

You see, when they gain LV, they start to be able to interact with the physical world directly.

We actually know that it wasn't Frisk's body that kills Sans, because the final attacks are always a slash, no matter the weapons Frisk holds. Yet, all of Frisk's attacks use their weapon in question (while we do see two slash attacks, it could be that Frisk's turn really was used up, and Chara had to make the first swing as well, meaning they both came from Chara.)

So those three kills were not a case of possession. Chara did it on their own, without using Frisk as a vessel. But that takes LV. 19, to be precise.

Why would they call them a good partner and that theyll be together forever?

I mean, Frisk did literally help give Chara exactly what they wanted, and they only call Frisk a good partner if they agree to erase the world, which is exactly what Chara wants to happen.

That doenst makes sence for Chara to help Frisk to achieve genocide run in this case because they hate humanity.

You're right, it doesn't make sense. Yet they do it anyway. The only way it would make sense is if they WANT the Genocide Route, and that's why they help. Their love of that route being greater than their hatred of Frisk for being human.

Now, if the plan eventually lead to the destruction of humanity.. Wouldn't that be worth it from the perspective of someone hating humanity? Using one to kill the rest? One enemy is a lot better than 7 billion enemies, especially if you gain that one enemy's SOUL and can thus control them at will.

See? The paradox can be resolved.

Now it's your turn to resolve the paradox under the assumption that Chara doesn't want a Genocide Run.

On the other hand,it makes more sence that they dont trust themselves anymore, neither their opinions on humanity and thus decided to follow their guidance. "Why was i brought back to life? You with your guidance i realized the purpose of my reimcarnation Power"

...And why not? It was Asriel's decision that got them killed, not theirs.

This literally goes agaisnt your theory. Why would Chara helps Frisk in genocide run if their actions further prove that they are evil?

I'm actually trying to reductio ad absurdum your take on the matter.

You say Chara helps you around. Yet Asriel makes it clear that Chara hated humanity. And if they hated humanity (which we know they do), they wouldn't help a human.. unless they had another motivation to do so.

You claim they had no other motivation to do so, leading to the problem I stated, as that predicts that Chara shouldn't help you at all.

Its just that they dont know which is right or wrong now, they are in the same state of mind like Flowey was until he decided that killing was "right" because kf his own experiences.

That's not the state of mind Flowey was in. Flowey did have a sense of right and wrong, it's just when he tried to feel love and compassion, it just didn't happen. He tried, and tried, so he clearly did know that compassion is a good thing. It's also why he tried to erase himself in the first place, as he didn't want a world without love.

When he did turn evil? That started with a curiosity of what would happen if he did bad things. He even told himself he didn't like it, and he's doing it because he HAS to see what happens.

That's less someone without a moral compass, and more someone who simply is missing emotions, and also, like a lot of players in video games, that take the evil paths just to see what happens.

Flowey's a parallel for the player, not a parallel for generic corruption.

Correction: they never prevent you from accidentally aborting this run.

Yes they do.

All they do is saying "shouldnt preceed" yet in watterfalls. Which is a SUGGESTION rather than an order, an advice. And yet Frisk can ignore this message and abort the run.

But then it'd no longer be accidental.

If they wanted to do something in the first place, then believe me that they'll at least TRY to do so in pacifist/neitral runs. But nope, Chara doenst care, they never even tries to take ove them even if the latter has high lv. In other words, Chara doenst have murderuous motives by default.

I already told you, they can't take over until they have Frisk's SOUL.

The high LV is what gives Chara the ability to destroy the world(s), and thus, everyone with it/them.

Because its in this game. This is a game where all vilains are reedemeadle, where everyone is affected by their tragedy and experiences etc...

We don't know that. And doesn't Genocide Frisk seem like an exception to this?

I meant that they kept them alive when monsters killed them while their soul could be used by monsters to destroy humanity. They also havent killed them in front of monsters or Asgore to allow them to take their soul.

If Frisk dies, Chara dies as well. They are bound by essence, after all. Probably the reason why Chara doesn't kill Frisk at the end of the Genocide Route, actually..

And well, we all know what happens when someone tries to end their own life...

"Something primal burned within me."-Flowey

The poem was for Frisk because they use "you" prounoun to refer to Frisk and third prounoun to refer to enemies. The "its you" is worded in an affectionate manner because Chara is excited at describing Frisk "its you !" as you can see with the exclamation mark.

*A cotton heart and a button eye, You are the apple of my eye. -Chara

Who has the button eye?


 * [A]-Frisk
 * [B]-Chara
 * [C]-DUMMY
 * [D]-TORIEL

120 seconds

(Only the green text comes from you. The cyan text will refer to possible ways you might respond.)

Frisk, right?


 * BZZZZ!|

OH, YOU SHOULD HAVE LOOKED AT THE SPRITE!

Chara?


 * BZZZZ!|

WRONG!!!

It can't be the DUMMY!

Take another look at the sprite. That eye actually does match what we'd expect if it were a button. Plus, this is a dummy, so a button eye makes sense.

Toriel?


 * BZZZZ!|

WHY WOULD IT BE TORIEL?

Then Chara is not the narrator. Sans has no link to Gaster and Asriel and Flowey arent the same person if we need to "see" before assuming assuming it exists.

We do see a memory of Chara, proving they're with us, we see a literal canon narrator, and we can rule out everyone who's not Chara. Not only that, the narrator literally says "It's me, Chara".

Yet you just claim Chara has an arc without even providing evidence such an arc exists! Perhaps Mew lies under that truck after all?

That doenst mean that they are no longer responable for their actions. Asgore changed too and yet he still faces consequences as lost his wife. And Chara has a strong mentality and views of responsability.

In that case, why can't we say that killing the monsters is giving them the "consequences", as they've all tried to kill us at one point or another? Sure, Papyrus decided to spare us, but he still wanted to fight us before!

In that case, there's nothing wrong with the Genocide Route. Thus, we don't deserve any consequences at all.

We arent even sure if these monsters are killed because Flowey still says that everyone is okay on the surface. Its possibly to remind that everyone was dead because of Frisk's actions. Either way, we are talking about Chara motives here, not what's objevtively "right". I'm not saying that what Chara doing is fine, just that's understable and thats not the classic "mua muah muah REVENGE die scum"

Tell me.. Why do wars happen at all?

Why do people kill each other? Why do murders happen in the first place?

Assassinations?

There really are people who kill just for revenge. There's really no reason to state that it's impossible for Chara to be doing this.

Revenge is not the same thing as "for the evulz". "For the evulz" means they do it because it's evil and they like being evil. And that's what isn't realistic. Actual killing because they think it's justified is a real thing that some people do.

Chara's one of them.

"Where everyone died again" uh...what? Theres neutral endings where no one except Asgore dies and despite this, Chara let Frisk to reset.

Of course, it's possible to reset as long as the world's not destroyed.

Anyways.. I'd like to ask you a question.

By your hypothesis.. Does Frisk go free in Neutral? If not, then why aren't they free if they crossed the Barrier? (You've stated several times they crossed the Barrier, yet also said they aren't free in Neutral.)

This is speculation and is outright contrdicated by the game. It's so obvious that they crossed it after Flowey's fight...

Really? Where's the Barrier? Show me a Barrier behind Frisk.

The Asriel fight happens in the final room in Pacifist, right next to the door to the Surface, the same door we see in Neutral. Since Asriel has to break that Barrier in order for us to make it to the Surface, then the Barrier must be beyond that point in space. The Barrier isn't within that room, or else we'd see it, thus, it must be beyond the door.

How did you relate the two ?

Frisk always answers the phone. Yet they don't here. Sans has to leave a message. It does get to Frisk's phone, though.

Are they not awake at this point? Did they bonk their head on the Barrier and fall down the stairs?

And what happened after the phone call? We really have no idea. And since we don't know what Frisk was doing (definitely not answering the phone, but that's all we know), for all we know, Soulless Chara IS killing monsters. (They do in Pacifist, and as you point out, it'd make no sense for them to do it in Pacifist and not Neutral.)

And they waited all this time because?

Maybe it's because only monsters can initiate fights? Thus, it's the same reason why they didn't kill any of the non-hostile NPCs?

"Go on, try it! I know you can't here!"-Gerson

We dont see Frisk in the CREDITS until the really end of them.

We also don't see Toriel and Asgore until close to the end, and we're not arguing they're replaced now, are we?

When we do see Frisk at the end, we start off by seeing them presumably as Frisk, before one of the eyes twinkle, turning red, and followed by a distorted version of Flowey's laugh.

I dont even think that they CAN truly care about anyone since they are souless. Hence why you should guide them well.

Flowey at least cared for them enough to help them out. He just can't FEEL that emotion-Doesn't stop him from doing it on an intellectual level. Until, of course, he got bored and started killing.

Hate =/= not caring

My definition of hate is "the opposite of love"-Loving someone means you wish good things to happen to them, so hating would mean you wish for BAD things to happen to them.

"To feel strong dislike for or hostility toward."

What happens when you dislike something STRONGLY? You want nothing to do with it. You don't want it around.

And it's quite paradoxical for Chara to care MORE for something they hate than something they don't.

If they're going to kill innocent monsters like it's nothing, why doesn't the same state of mind apply to the humans, which they actually hate?

Being fine with killing =/= wanting to kill everyone.

It's not like we told them to do it:They do it even if we say we don't want the world to get destroyed. Which means they wanted to do it.

Why should monsters be treated worse than humans, if humans are the ones that are hated MORE?

If they want to kill monsters, then unless you can think of a good reason why they wouldn't also kill humans, we should default to them going after humans too, since that's what the simplest model that fits the evidence predicts.

Sorry but i dont know how you get this conclusion. Yes Chara is fine with killing as long as you have a "valid" reason such as giving you consequneces for actions (the world destcrion) or to gain power in genocide run. But i dont see how any of this prove that both of the worlds are destroyed.

Well, considering what they do in Soulless Pacifist, it doesn't seem like they've given up on this consequences thing. And they're already fine with killing monsters, which they care about more than humans, so why not go all the way?

I'm lost now. You said that Frisk's soul allows them to take over them, which is why they asked it in the first place, so why do you argue now that they need lv?

Well, as you said earlier, it's quite hard for a human to kill off 7 billion other humans. Yes, they can possess Frisk without LV now that they have the SOUL.

But LV1 isn't powerful. If they tried to fight the humans at LV1, they'd just kill Frisk. They didn't gain that "demonic" (they do call themselvesa demon) power to destroy the world until the very end.

They need to gain that power again. How to do that? Gain more LV, course. How to do that? Kill those six monsters.

And again, Chara couldnt have take over Frisk to kill Frisk's friends if only lv gave them power to take over them.

Exactly. That's why that was never my argument to begin with.

Or maybe you mean that's frisk who kill monsters themselves to give Chara power to control them in souless end? This is non sence

You're right, it is nonsense. Which is why I didn't argue that. They just need to gain the ability to kill the humans so they don't just kill Frisk and keep humanity alive.

I meant BESIDES this power. Chara seems to be familar with this power as they know how to use them and knows that they have it, implying that they had it even in lifetime.

The world gets destroyed by a slash attack. Chara destroyed the world by attacking the world itself, and dealing so much damage that the 9's fill up the entire screen.

It's not really a new power. It's just Chara gaining enough power to destroy the world in a single attack. And given how they describe themselves as the feeling we get when our stats increase, it's likely they know their own stats.

So of course they'd be familiar with it. They're doing what they've already done to Sans, Asgore, and Flowey. It doesn't mean they had that amount of power when they were alive (because otherwise, why didn't they use it on the six humans without Asriel, and why didn't they destroy the world BEFORE the end of the Genocide Route?)

Chara has the ability to destroy the world = Chara has the ability to invidually destroy every single human.

We only have 99HP, max, and Chara can deal well over 10^200 damage (There's 234 visible "9"'s on the screen, so at minimum, they do (10^234)-1.)

So yes. Chara could destroy every single human.

...Once they gain the LV necessary to get that high of an attack stat. ("Demons" have a better stat progression curve than humans, it seems.)

That's why they didn't destroy every human while they were alive.

Also, Flowey was intending on destroying the world. But flowers and demons aren't exactly the same thing, are they?

But if its for some personal motives, why would they feel "obligated" to suggest it? Why would they even "suggest" it instead of ordering us to choose this path if they had unlterier motives?

Because people are more likely to do what you say if you suggest it than when you order it-This is likely because when it's an order, we're more likely to be compelled to reject it to retain our autonomy, while if it's a suggetion, we're less inclined, because we feel like we "chose" to follow it.

This is one of the reasons why social engineering is so effective.. Yes, it's a thing people do:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

Superficial charm is far more effective than just making orders.

...Actually, let's see if Chara's actions match the ways that such manipulation is done. I'll put the results in this pastebin:https://pastebin.com/TFG7Bvv9

Seems like Chara matches the methods of pyshcological maniuplation. This only strengths the point. (I advise that you click the pastebin link:It goes into how I reached that conclusion.)

As for the answer to your question stated another way, Chara says that they're "obligated" to "suggest", because they're using superficial charm.

And neutral ending is something that exists you know -_-

If Frisk doesn't cross the Barrier, then they need to restart, making it identical to a Genocide Run in terms of the effect on Chara's plan. If they do, then Chara's free anyway, so that's a win. (That means Flowey crossed as well, and if Chara kills Flowey, that could concievably give them LV.)

Because you have any proof of this ?

..Wait.. I thought you were arguing for that.

"We have to ignore the fact that Chara accuse us for destroying the world and that it was merely a means to end."

You pretty much implied that you thought my argument involves us having to ignore the fact that it was a means to an end. And in my case for them manipulating us, I've actually devised the accusation into the theory. It actually supports my case!

So my point was that I wasn't really ignoring any of this at all.

Which is SO stupid and makes them sound like a one dimesnioanl cackling vilain whose only driving motivation is sadism and hatred.

Can YOU explain why Chara didn't just kill Flowey in one hit? I gave one. Now it's your turn if you think there's a better one.

And i mindless creature who prefers to make nedless efforts to satisfy their own bloodlust rather than achieving their goal with a strike.

You know, it's actually quite common for revenge to go too far. That's the whole reason why the message of "revenge is bad" has been spread around so much. Chara could be just another case of that.

(Also, you kill Flowey at one strike in all neutral endings)

Yes. That's why I said Chara had the capability to kill Flowey in one hit. Yet they didn't. Why not?

So Flowey was already dead when Chara hit them the first time.

That's an invalid leap in logic. It only means Chara COULD have done it, not that they actually DID.

They just no longer wanted to see him for some reason..

Maybe it's hatred?

Yes, it been reefered as the "world above" by a SINGLE monster.

And yet NO monster refers to the Surface and Underground combined as one world.

So one monster tells us there's two worlds, and not a single monster tells us there's just one.

So we have to ASSUME that's happening on the surface in souless neutral endings despite the fact that absolutely nothing hints it?

We have to take one of them, and it's impossible for neither of them to be true. Either Frisk can't cross the Barrier, or they can. If Frisk doesn't cross, they failed in their goal, so they have to restart. If they do cross, Chara crosses as well, being that they move with Frisk, so they have the chance to do their thing.

So that's not really an assumption. It's a fact.

And why doenst Chara kill monsters in this neutral end then?

Perhaps because they have Flowey. Anyway, i wonder how Chara can know all the outcomes.

I mean, it's really quite simple:Either Frisk crosses the Barrier... or they don't. That's really the only important part. It's not that hard.

A tinny child ghost possesing a tinny 10 year old child vs the whole fucking humamity with hundred of nuclear bombs, fire weapons, trained soldiers + stronger souls.

This is exactly why they want to kill off the monsters, and likely Flowey as well when they're done, so they can regain that power which is used to destroy the world. Since if they do that, humanity WILL be dead. Whether it's one-by one or all at once with a world-ending slash, they can win that way.

Who also crossed the barrier because he had the 6 souls during the battle.

That still doesn't explain how Frisk crossed it. We already know that's impossible, because it takes a human PLUS a monster SOUL to cross. We can't cross it on our own. And Chara doesn't count, they don't have a SOUL.

We never got to absorb Asgore's SOUL, so we don't get a Boss Monster SOUL. We're stuck.

Chara clearly doesnt kill any of Frisk's friends or monsters as they are all alive and call Frisk.

It takes a while to go all the way from New Home to Snowdin. Even IF they were out to kill them, they wouldn't make it before the call ended. So no, we haven't ruled it out at all.

Flowey can be killed in neutral end. So your theory doesnt stand.

Now that's what I call a rebuttal! More of these!

..You destroyed one of my possible arguments! I'll have to switch to one that's still standing! Like the idea that we'd have to restart if we didn't cross, and if we DID, they could still kill humanity (Flowey'd be worth LV as well..)

I said EVERYONE, not 6 persons. And i said that Chara had a good reason for doing this. While Frisk is killing everyone all over again because of their "perverted sentimentality"

If we refuse to destroy the world a second time, Chara tells us that this is the feeling they are talking about. Destroying the world's not the perverted sentimentality, it's wanting to keep the world around when it's "pointless".

So speculations again...Arent you tired of making hundred and hundred assumptions and speculations to give a credit to your theory?

Can you find a third possiblility that could potentially allow for your case to be correct? Because I don't see a possibility besides "They crossed the Barrier" and "They didn't cross the Barrier". How can we possibly have ¬(P∨¬P)?

Correlation =/= causation. Just because Chara very vaguely suggest "another path" and that it led to the surface at the very end doenst mean that it's what Chara wanted.

It can't be to keep the monsters alive, since Chara kills the rest of them. It can't be to do stuff in the Underground, because Chara destroyed the Underground. All that remains is the Surface.

Besides from the story standpoint, there's no way for Chara to know the outcomes.

They do know it's possible to cross the Barrier with a Boss Monster SOUL. And that's all they need to know. If they know Flowey will destroy it, then they also know we'll cross it. If they don't know Flowey will destroy it, they have no reason to suspect we won't cross the Barrier.

Chara is only suggesting you to take "another path" because as they said, they feel "obligated to" as it"s pointless to destroy and recreate the world all over again.

They specifically refer to "paths", and they're the one destroying the world if we pick the wrong path.

Flowey clearly crossed the barrier and it been clearly establised by the end of his fight when you kill him. Why do you believe othewise ?

Okay, defer to the argument above instead. And the game didn't make it clear the Barrier was crossed, evidence suggests it wasn't, as explained elsewhere in this post. As you saw, I said that EITHER one of them could be true. You're supposed to pick the argument that corresponds to which belief you have. I wanted to make sure the argument applies no matter WHICH possibility is true.

If Frisk crossed the Barrier, I have a valid argument. If Frisk didn't cross the Barrier, I still have a valid argument. It's a better argument when it works under ALL possibilites, rather than just under a given assumption.

Maybe its because they want Frisk to be "together forever with them"

They say that calling us a great partner. So what are we? A great partner, or a monster who doesn't deserve a good ending that in fact is not "good" at all?

Just because we "care" doenst mean we are reformed. And just because we're reformed doenst mean that we dont deserve any punishment.

I could make the same argument for the monsters so that Chara has no reason to punish us at all.

But this is EXACTLY the same thing and a circular logic.

No they're not the same!

Pure evil vilains may want to kill everyone because they "think they deserve to die".

No, they kill everyone because that's evil, and they just want to cause destruction and mischief.

Who knows maybe this vilain think people deseve to die because these people are "good" and the vilain hates everything good so think that people with good in them deserve to die.

That doesn't fit Chara. They actually consider humans as "bad".

That still makes them pure evil.

For other reasons:Hating everything "good". If they hated the heroes for other reasons, actual "bad" things, then it would no longer be pure evil.

But as long as there's no explanation for why they think people deserve to die, from a narrative standpoint, this vilain is supposed to be viewed as pure evil.

Alright, let me rephrase that argument a bit, and then use it as an argument myself.

But as long as there's no explanation for why they hate humanity, from a narrative standpoint, this character is supposed to be viewed as pure evil.

So, I guess Chara is pure evil after all. Guess Demon!Chara was correct after all!

And i wonder how monsters and Frisk's friends who never did anything to them deserve to die.

Perhaps for refusing to fight the human threat, and instead actually choosing the humans over their own lives? Or maybe Chara ONLY wishes to kill the monsters to have a better shot at killing the humans.

And just because Chara hates humnaity as a society doens't mean that they wish their dead individually.

But if they had a choice to destroy humanity as a whole, would they not take it? That would include every human, yes, but with that, the WHOLE of humanity is dead! The "enemy" is gone!