Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-31536324-20190309031910

"Because that's what you're saying.'

I meant that just because you say firmess of purpose is to get the best conclusion doenst mean it true.You can have the firmess to achieve anything,not just the objectively best ending."

No duh, Sherlock, it was AN EXAMPLE.

"No, it's stated that they achieved the quota for thr Red Trait by using a combination of the 6 traits, and the trait itself in the case of the second flag.'

Stop to be that dumb please,all tactics you use to get the ball in the flag reflect it trait.You use kindnesz to achieve the quota for kindness flag by being nice with the ball,patience to achieve quota for the patience flag by being patient,you were brave to achieve the guota to get the bravery flag,you had "strong moral principles"(originality)to achieve the quota for the integrity etc...

So if Frisk used all those traits to get the red flag then that means the red flag=all flags."

As well as its own thing, which has to be something, and Determination is the only thing that fits that.

'2nd Flag: Try as you might, you continue to be yourself.

Huh,why did you wrote this quote?

"Despite your attempts, your are firm in who you are," is essentially what it's saying."

^^ This!

"Its saying that Frisk hardly "continue to be themself"as its hard for them to use tactics required to get the second red flag."

First: That means that despite their efforts, they're barely ever theirself. The literal antithesis of the quote!

Second: How?

"This quota is in fact the most difficult to achieve in the ball game so its only stating fact."

A "fact" that you made up.

.

"1: Why?"

Because there's something we call logic,that why.

"2: You do know "fills you with Determination" is to mean that you're becoming more determined, right? Outright saying that would be redundant. Frisk is already determined, so they're becoming more determined through these things.'

But the narrator NEVER says it give Frisk more dt,only that it "fills them with dt"

Yes, because it fills them with Determination. Having them say more every time would be clumsy and redundant, since anyone capable of rational thinking would be able to piece together that Frisk is GAINING more DT, not spontaneously getting DT from nothingness.

All humans nturally have DT, so the only thing to take from this is that Frisk is getting MORE.

"Wrong, all humans HAVE DT, same with monsters. Frisk however is explicitly associated with DT; like how the other SOULS are associated with their trait.'

All fallen humans had enough dt to get the save load power and so were also explictly associated with dt even at save points as save load power  is related to determination.

Except everything we know about the other kids specifically associates them with their trait, even with the idea that they could SAVE in mind. Their trait is their trait, they just happened to have enough DT to be able to SAVE. Frisk on the other hand is associated with nothing but Determination, none of the other traits, just Determination.

"1: Your goal is to live, so you're determined to live.'

My bad,i meant goal in general"

You gave the example, I provided a response, amd there is no way for wanting to live to be a "goal in general". Wanting to continue to live IS a goal, same with changing fate.

.

"And wanting to leave in all of the Neutral Routes, and kill all monsters in Genocide.'

Perhaps returning home but its not what give them "determination"(the determination Alphys is talking about)as the nareation never mention it."

It's still their goal regardless, everything else just fills them with the determination to achieve it. It's like when your trying to finish a painting, but can't, and you see a child struggling to hit a ball with a bat. When you see the child finally hit the bat and succeed, you feel a passion to achieve your goal of finishing that painting; being filled with Determination. You were already determined to complete that painting, but that moment gave you more that compelled you forward.

Short, sweet, and simple.

"And iam not sure if they are determined to kill alll monstees in the genocide run as the Chara make it pretty clear that Frisk is no longer themself since the start of the genocide run unlike in any other run as they no longer says "its you!"but "its me Chara",they are projecting themself a soulless person into Frisk,even Flowey says that Frisk behaves like a soulesa person."

Except Chara doesn't appear until the end, and makes it clear that the determination to do all of that was Frisk' not theirs. Not even taking control until Frisk gives them their SOUL.

Also, the term is projecting onto, not into since they're already IN them.

"So they are likely isnt themself anymore,which is reflected by how monsters decribes them in this run,even cant easily notice them as Papyrus.We are forcing them to do what they wouldn't(so i think they are okay with killing monsters in neutral runs as they are themself in those runs but not hunting down every single monster to kill them)"

Okay, still doesn't invalidate my point about the Neutral Runs though.

"Again, it's the only candidate, and it all lines up. The only question i if it actually IS.'

Again,it DOENST need to be trait,its a POWER,a FEELING not a trait that descrines you and your behaviour(let be honest the "firmess of purpose"has no behaviour associated with,thats just a feeling)as any trait should such as justice,intergrety ,kindness would"

Bravery is a feeling, Justice is a feeling, Kindness is a feeling, Patience is a feeling, and Integrity and Perseverance are (more abstract) feelings.

Also:

Determination - You're someone who's firm in your path, steadfast in your goals, and unwavering in your decisions. You want to do or achieve it, so you do it no matter what.

Bravery - You're someone who takes danger head on, never lets fear take thrm down, and abstains from cowardice. You see an enemy, an obstacle, or a challenge, and you rush it with flying fist.

Justice - You're a fair person, level headed, and a clear thinker. You take all into account before passing judgment, and go with what you think is best. For better or worse.

Kindness - Compassionate, caring, and empathetic, you'd defend until your dying breath and do everything innyour power to help others - friend or foe.

Patience - Calm, collected, and willing to wait. For an opening to strike at, or a chance to get past, you're as still as you are observant.

Integrity - Original, honest, and as true to others as you are to yourself. You stave off the corruption of your morals, and maintain the high road.

Perseverance - Analytical, mindful, and always ready to repeat. You're someone who tries again and again in order to learn and complete, depsite the difficulties.

"1: The fact that they're their own separate sentences, and even mentioned separately at all, is enough implication.'

Which again means nothing,they might simply be complementary definitions given the fact that it first definition is related to death and that Death is also a fate(according to literally every single fate's definition i found on the internet)and that even the ability to persist after death is well...related to death,then,thats likely the case.Even the fact the second definition comes after "...."implies that they rather complete each other."

All of them re a part of Determination, detrmination can do all of these things. The strength of DT allows the SOUL to persist, but DT itself instills the will to live, and allow you to change fate should you actually desire to do so - and have it as your trait.

"2A: Oh look, a god like entity is going to erase the world and make the Underground go empty! But I don't want that to happen, so I will do everything in my conceivable power to stop that.'

So youre talking about the fate's definition right?Well,nothing assume that the world's destruction is a predetermined event ,there no reason to believe its a fate"

It's an example. Everything ends, if the world is foretold to end and you have the chance to avert it, then you're changing fate.

"2B: Oh no! I'm trapped in the Underground, and might be so forever! I will not let this stand! I will do everything I can to leave and go home!'

All fallen humans also wanted the same thing"

Exactly, but Frisk was the only one to actually succeed.

"2C: Oh no, I'm dead! Wait, I'm hearing someone telling someone to stay determined. It's not directed toward me, but the voice is so wholesome and compassionate that it fills me with strength. Surely if whoever was on the receiving end of this could be determined, then I can be too! *pops in back at save point* Onward with my quest!'

If Frisk was determined or using their own dt to come back by themself then they wouldn't need at all a voice telling Chara to stay determined."

Chara is in Frisk, Frisk is hearing those memories, those memories are making them more determined. Not giving them the determination to gk back. That's it.

"Besides,that doesn't matter,theres literally no narrative reasons for Frisk to be the one who use their own dt to come back,"

Except for the fact that they're the main character, the one the ability to SAVE is under the control of, the one whose SOUL is the coveted item everything around them wants, and the one that's going through all of this and doing all of this.

"considering that the message is adressed  to Chara,they are the one whos determined."

Excelt they have no SOUL or DT, freely admit so at the end of Genocide, and could only start doing anything when Frisk reached LV 20.

"Theres a reason for Frisk to receive the specific line about Asgore telling Chara to stay determined,when Chara dies along Frisk,they hear the message of a closed person telling them to keep the will to live,thus it make them brought back to life."

Except they're dead, even when using Frisk as a vessel, they're dead.

"Consider also the fact that the save load power ia under CHARAS name not Frisk and that Flowey says Chara is the one who have the power to reset,then its pretty obvious that Chara is the one who posses it,Frisk can only use it."

1: Flowey NEVER says anything of the sort.

2: Chara outright says that everything was all because of Frisk DT. Frisk is the most determined being in the Underground, and thus the one who has the ability. That's it!

"1: The 6 Human SOULS".

Okay,whatever its suposed to mean"

They're persisting, and yet they're not alive, so the "will to live" and averting death is not as all encompassing as you think.

"2: That's Flowey, who has no SOUL, if he had no will to live then he wouldn't be here.'

Wtf is that??So now you assume its the will to keep living that brought him back to life??"

"What happens when something not living gains the will to live?" - Alphys.

It's literally stated in the game.

"but isnt the will to keep living dt??So dt is only the will to keep living??"

It's the will to live, change fate, and firmness of purpose; whose strength allows the SOUL to persist both outside the human body and after death. That's it.

"Yeah,that works considering that Alphys says "what will happen if a souless being GAIN THE WILL TO LIVE",without saying "and the resolve to change fate",so dt is only related to death"

"Not injecting something that doesn't belong in a sentence into a semtemce automatically means that I'm right!" - MegalomaevaAnima

"3: This is not persisting, the aforementioned 6 SOULS are a better example.'

Thats the ability to deturn death in a way or another."

No, that's the strength of DT that allows the SOUL to persist outside the human body and after death. Something explicitly stated in the game and listed as a capabiltiy of DT by Alphys.

"When you dies having the save load ability,instead of persisting thanks to your will to keep living,you come back to life by returning to the save point."

Persiting is due to the strength of DT, not an actual capability of DT itself.

"4: SAVE clearly works by way of your will to live, while REFUSE works by use of your resolve to change fate. Again, how are these two not separate things?'

What that suppose to mean??"

Exactly as it says.

"Flowey says that s the dt that gives you the ability to have the save load,without specifically mentioning the "will to keep living"part of this substance.Thats because dt only has one function:to de(turn)-termination(death)."

Oh so the person constantly preaching about Flowey's "So long as I'm determined to live" line suddenly doesn't believe that?

"By the way,Frisk has the refuse ability because well...their soul is determined to not be shattered/die."

They're determined to save their friends, and the world, from Asriel's reign of destruction.

"Fate is a predetermined event, circumstance, or happening that's to befall someone or a group of someones. Death is an inevitability, and the only way death falls into this is if it's a specifically planned death (like my examples) or an orchestrated event (ala Flowey's plan in the Pacifist Route).'

Oh so we have a specialist here!!!No really i have literally no reason to believe its true,especially that every single site i checked describe it as a predetermined event,mostly death.Here some links:https://www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/amp/anglais/fate https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fate"

You're just repeating what I said. What was the point of this?

"That's not changing fate! The only way that would be so is if you went through an event (like being kidnapped and shot in a critical area) that made death a certainty, and you instead managed to survive long enough to live.'

Death is a certainty."

Yes, and it's a fate when it's foretold to happen in an exact way.

"Except it does, because she outright says it. "The resolve to change fate" - Alphys."

1.That WASNT fate in general,she worded that way because its more poetic"

Irrelevant, unimportant, and not at all what a SCIENTIST would do.

"2.The endings besides the true end ARENT fate as they arent predetermined."

Oh so that legend/prophecy of an angel whose seen the human world descending and making the Underground go empty (i.e exactly what happens/would happen in both Pacifist and Genocide) is just nothing?

The monsters being trapped forever as part of the machinations of the humans of so long ago AREN'T fate?

Actually, no, they both are.

"The resolve to change fate" - Alphys.'

Thank you captain obvious!!!But fate isnt the will to fight!"

Resolve is resolve, your firmness of purpose, what you're resolved to do is not your resolve!

No duh, fate isn't the will to fight! Fate is what's predetermined to happen to you, others, or your surroundings!

Determination is the resolve behind your actions, the drive that pushes you to do things, the motivation behind your goals!

Firmness of purpose = willingness to live/fight/etc.

"I believe this is what gives their SOULS the ability to persist after death...The will to keep living...The resolve to change fate...Let's call this power Determination." - Alphys"

If you didnt notice it says  "to KEEP living",and"AFTER DEATH"so....this feeling only happens when youre dying (and perhaps if youre suicidal since it says to "the will to KEEP living") Even Flowey confirms it as he says he was "determined to live"only when he was dying,even the fact that the Asgores message only comes when Chara/Frisk dies and he was telling Chara to "stay determined" when Chara was dying.

So,How would it make sence for them to feel the resolve to change any fate besides whats coming to them aka death when they are dying  ?

"So it IS determination yet at the same time it's NOT determination? Both the will to keep living and resolve to change fate are different forms of firmness of purpose. If it's one then it's also the other, because both are DT. You're not making any sense.'

Im perfectly making sense,"

No you're not.

"Alphys talk about it as if she discovered something new and even had to call it,"

She was looking for what allowed human SOULS to persist, she found it, amd named it.

"if she waa talking about firmess of purpose in general ,then that wouldnt make any sence "

How?

"While she called this subtance determination well because its a pun,dt is a the ability to de(turn)-termination (death)and because its also a resolve even though its specifically the resolve to change fate.She never mention it as the the firmess of purpose in general.The substance she extracted is specially related to death and that allows to deturn death."

1: Again, stop simplifying DT into one thing.

2: DT has all the capabilities that's been said before (persist, change fate, live) it makes no sense for something that is the physical form of DT to just be one aspect, when it would also be ALL OF THE OTHER ASPECTS.

"Again, both are forms of firmness of purpose, and even then resolve is used in the second definition. So firmness of purpose is the underlying attribute of it all.'

She never even mention the firmess of purpose,that's specifically the resolve to change fate...the will to keep living"

The mere use of the word resolve literally says that firmness of purpose is a major aspect of DT - because that's what it means. Again, both the will to live and resolve to change fate are different forms of firmness of purpose.

"Yes, it was.'

Oh,really do you have any proof that implies that souless people who come back to life thanks to other people determination cant feel the will to keep living/dt when they came back to life?"

When have I ever said that? Flowey only has the DT he was injected with, and everything he "feels" is because of that DT - which is then, essentially, his. Chara is possesssing Frisk, they don't have their own SOUL or DT, so they leech off of Frisk SOUL and DT. That's it.

"It's a memory! No one is calling them!'

Memory or not,in this memory Asgore is calling Chara's name and Chara is the "demon when people call it name"."

Chara is there from the start, and no one is calling them, them being "the demon who comes when you call it's name" is referencing the character naming sequence! That's the only time their name is "called"!

"It's also what allows Chara to destroy the world. So no, I'm not overestimating anything. Chara themselves say that they ARE the LV, EXP, ATK, DEF, GOLD, and STATS that increase with each kill."

1.Nothing even implies that you NEED lovw to destroy world,that's never implied to be required.but chara need it because they need to be emotionally distanced from themself to destroy everyone that live in the world and live in nothing for all eternity.Sans clearly states whats lv "Love is an acronym,it stands for "Level of violence"A way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt,the more you kill the more you distance yourself,the more you distance youraelf the less you get hurt and the more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others"

CAPACITY to hurt. As in how much you're able TO hurt. Destroying the world is clearly a capability of LV 20, and while you CAN'T do that in Pacifist, Asriel does the same thing in his attempts to kill Frisk in his fight.

And seeing as how you need to kill nearly every monster to get to LV 20, and Asriel absorbs the SOULS of ALL monsters, the correlation should be obvious.

"2.Nope,they are the "feeling"Frisk feel when they increases their stats not the stats alone,so they mean that Frisk can feel their stats increasing when Frisk increase their own ones as both share the same ones."

They share the body, so why not the power they gain from killing. Once again though, Frisk is the one with the ability to SAVE, and Chara can only really do anything when LV 20 is reached and Frisk SOUL is sold to them afterwards.

"That's not a fear of death, that's the fear of the UNKNOWN.'

So according to you why people fear death???"

Because they don't want to die, be reduced to nothing, and forgotten.

"From the DT he was injected with.'

If it was the case,he wouldn't be suicidal at first place since dt is "the will to keep living"but the fact is:he was only determined when he was dying because he feared of what would happen after death.That all indicate its his own will to keep living."

Being suicidal AT ALL invalidates the notion that Determination is nothing but the will to keep living and defying death. You literally just disproved yourself.

The only DT he has is what he was injected with, that same DT is what allows him to live and SAVE, and what spurs him to want to continue living. That's it.

"You get the 7th Trait via the other 6 in some form, or exhibiting the trait itself more than the others. The SOUL and flags wouldn't have a seventh color if there wasn't a seventh trait it was associated with. And the 1st Red Flag wouldn't name drop the other traits if they didn't have something to do with it."

Okay here a freaking fact:you use tactics that match the trait showed by the flag.If youre patient with the flag then you get a patience flag etc...Frisk use all traits to get the red soul, so ITS their personality."

And they're a determined person, therefore their trait is Determination.

"The red trait is clearly its own trait, there wouldn't be a Red SOUL and flag if their wasn't, and has its own identity and attributes."

Yes,its all traits"

Which is something, the question is what that something IS, amd thr only candidate is Determination.

"The mystery is what it is. Again, the only candidate is Determination because it matches with everything.'

Match with nothing,you mean?"

I mean everything.

."And what ate these imaginary tactics?"

I dont know as "you never gave up your goal despite how hard it was to achieve it,that allowed you to win at the ball game"

"How so?'

Because they changed the meaning of kindness making it related to dt by giving kindness a whole dufferent meaning,said that you need order so "justuce"to have firmess of purpose etc....Thats so absurd especially considering firmess of purpose is only that firmess of purpose...Toby fox wouldnt put those whole traits to the red flag if red was simply the firmess of purpose."

First: You need each trait in some capacity to get the seventh, which Frisk clearly has, and given the two flags, the six make up the seventh while the seventy clearly contributes to the others in turn.

Second: No talking like you know Toby!

Third: You need to be brave to face danger and pursue your goals; be just to determine what you feel is the right or wrong thing to do in your pursuit of said goals; be kind and concerned over other people and things obstructing or associated with your own goals, be patient and willing to wait in order to do what you desire, have a standard to stick to in your endeavor, and be willing to repeat and reattempt over and over again in order to move forward in your pursuit of your goal.

In turn, you need to stick to your choices and desires - be firm in your purpose - in order to be brave, decide right from wrong, be kind, be patient, stick to your morals, and repeat continuously. You need to be yourself.