Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180705014051

"I CLEARLY STATED TWICE THAT THE BALL GAME IS THE ONLY TIME WHERE THE NARRATOR USE RED IN PACIFIST AND NEUTRAL RUN"

And that much is true.

"BESIDES THE GENOCIDE RUN WHERE THEY USE THE RED TEXT TO DESCRIBE SOMETHING THEY STRONGLY FEEL ABOUT."

Exactly. The Genocide Route has a counterexample, and that's what matters. So what if it's not in the other routes? The mechanics don't just suddenly change just because we decided to kill everybody. Red text would work in the other routes the same way they would work in Genocide. Therefore, the red text here would be to describe something they feel strongly about as well, just like in the Genocide Route, and how the other characters can use red text outside of the Genocide Route, like when Toriel refers to Asgore before her fight. You don't really make a good case here.

"I NEVER FREAKING SAID IT NEVER.I said a billion times that "hole"(from the ball game) written in red implies that red is a lack of trait or perhaps a soul that every one born with before developing one of the 6 other traits or keeping the red one if they have a personality outside of it. But Frisk use all the traits to reach the ball into the hole and get the flag that corresponds to their soul, which implies that their personality becomes a mix of the 6 traits, which means that they keep their red soul because their personality is outside of the 6 traits and cant be reduced to one of the 6 traits."

I never said that you said trait mixing is the ONLY way to get a red SOUL. Just that trait mixing would lead to a red SOUL, because it can't be reduced to just one trait. Which you DID say.

"The whole ball game is about which tactics each trait use to get victory, Frisk use all the traits to get the red flag, the one that corresponds to their soul."

Yes, that's correct. That implies the red trait has something to with using the six other traits.

"If you are not totally dumb then you must understand what Toby tries to indicate here. And dont try to ignore it."

Only what the game actually says, and what can be derived FROM that, should be considered canon. If we start going outside the game, well, that's where the idea of Chara posessing the player, and making them do Genocide comes from.

"I wonder what make this power exclusive to the underground even so theres no longer any barrier??"

If Option 1 is correct, the Barrier never had anything to do with it. What it is, is a mystery, therefore.

"Also absolutely nothing implies that Frisk still have this power even so the barrier is broken because we are far from the humanity."

It IS implied that we're far from humanity, and it's CONFIRMED that Frisk still has this power, since, well, we can True Reset.

"Also Frisk had more determination than the absolute god of hyperdeath, so why would'nt they have more than every single other human?"

That was solely because of thier red trait, and the gravity of the situation they were in, boosting their DT, like how Undyne's DT was boosted when she realized that younwere a threat to monsterkind and mankind alike. Naturally, they can't even beat Omega Flowey in DT. And there's other red-souled humans out there.

"Sorry Sherlock but Frisk and Flowey do cross the barrier in any neutral end and here a canonical proof : https://www.google.fr/amp/adamency.tumblr.com/post/143766235842/frisks-escape-from-the-underground/amp

I can't believe people completely ignored this fact. .. ."

They failed to consider the possibility that the Barrier could be further out than that. Room 2 is where we meet Asgore, but we don't see the grass anywhere. Not only that, the layout doesn't match-We're supposed to have a short hallway down, but the SOUL containers' have a long horizontal line. Omega Flowey had nothing to do with this, because he only appears once per reset, but we're in the same Room 2, with the same invisible wall later on. Not only that, the invisible wall CAN'T be the Barrier, because anything can enter through the barrier:That would include us! ..Though, we'd be trapped. If Chara had to do with us crossing, then why couldn't we cross the Barrier earlier, and why can't we just go back and forth through the Barrier wall here? Chara's still with us, after all, because they say your adventure will be over if you go through the door!

"By the way Alphys never says that we necessarily requires a human and a monster soul just that a human soul isnt strong enough to cross the barrier so that we need at least a human soul and a monster, but she dont know about the whole essence thing fusionated with a soul. So its seems like Frisk can cross the barrier because of Chara's essence and you have reasons to contradict this."

Chara has essence, not SOUL power. SOUL power exists within the SOUL. And Chara has no SOUL anymore.

"This line comes right after "your power awakened me from death", so its seems like by "my human soul and my determination weren't mine but yours"they means that something that awakened them wasnt their own determination and soul but Frisk's ones."

You don't need a SOUL to come back to life. Chara would have no reason to make that connection.

"Which is nothing to do with whatever Chara can have determination or not. And after all they are the one who use their own determination to keep themself and Frisk alive."

No, they give us a memory, to get US to stay determined. It says Chara and not Frisk, because it's CHARA'S memories, they can't just change the memory to say Frisk!

"Okay at first stop to use comics and aus as evidence and what people often wrongly assume. From the game's perspective monsters have determination(proven one of the Asriel's and Gerson lines but also undyne, who is canonicaly reborned in the genocide because of their own determination(its the narrator who say it not me) ), but as Alphys says in entry number 17(innacessible in game) monsters start to melt with too much determination, but if they have a normal quantity of determination they can handle it."

Yes, monsters can have some. They also have SOME physical matter to hold it.

"They start to melt with too much determination because they doenst have enough physical matter."

Exactly.

"Also despite all the aus and comics, Chara isnt some kind of ghost floating around Frisk"

Then why are they invisible?

"they are literally fusionated with Frisk soul, so they are basically reincarnated into Frisk's body.So Frisk's body is Chara's body."

....We're the ones in control of our body. Chara doesn't choose to fight or MERCY, we do, while all they can do is watch from the sideline. They say YOU healed HP, not that they did. You play the role of Frisk, not Chara:This isn't another case of Chasriel. Not only that, when they DO gain enough power, from YOU killing everyone, they BECOME physical, to speak to you.

"So you changed your mind about it because the fact that Chara use their own will to live on to revive Frisk proove that Chara have their own determination?"

I've always said it was a memory! That's never changed!

"Flowey is a soulless being who was reborned because of others ones determination. Though he literally says in the genocide that he used his own determination to not die when he committed suicide, so why wouldnt Chara have their own determination if Flowey has one?"

Flowey has physical matter. Chara DOESN'T.

"Why would Frisk revive because of the message they get from an unknown person(asgore) and if Chara doesnt have any will to live on (determination) how can they want to be alive by encouraging Frisk to stay determined?"

They're still with Frisk. They still latch on to FRISK'S determination. And they relay a message to Frisk to get them to stay determined, because if Frisk actually DIES, so do they. And remember, either they're still trying to find out their purpose, or they've discovered that it's power, and want to fulfill that goal. So, there's a reason to not die, Chara. Also, it's not the one who gave the message. It's the fact that it's a message to STAY DETERMINED.

"Also Asgore encourage Chara to stay determined not Frisk."

Because it's a memory from Tape 5.

"Okay, there is nothing that implies that theres any war when the children fell. And since this power must to belong to someone who is most determined why not to a child who discovered a full population of monsters who also wants their death? (also toriel explains since the very beginning that the underground is full of monsters who would fight any human who fell)"

Frisk overtook Flowey's determination before that. It's right when they fell undeground, as they can reset, load, all of that from the start of the game. Flowey even has something to say if you close the game during his speech.

"I think anyone at their place would be the most determined being in the world(they were also kids, who feared monsters more than any adult do) . That all contributed in their fear of death, so they developed a high concentration of determination"

There's worse things than falling underground and meeting a talking flower, which, at the time of Frisk gaining the power, didn't even try to kill you yet.

"So they prefers to loose 20 gold a hundren times than 50 gold for two times?"

It'd be 100 times either way.

"Also you ignored the main argument, is that the first message for red flag dissapears right after your first red flag."

The first flag revealed what the six traits were named. We have no reason to learn that again, and we want to know what the red trait actually means, not just one piece of it.

"Integrity is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles, or uprightness. It is colloquially a personal choice to hold oneself to consistent moral and ethical standards"-wikipedia"

I meant the GAME.

"Hopping and twirling, your original style pulled you through"

Blue is original style as well.

"And once again,when its says "perseverance, kindness, etc by using these you were be able to reach the ball game ", the "ball game"is written in red text, and since colours are related to traits during the ball game and that the ball game itself cannot be a trait itsself, then its seems like "ball game"is still related to Frisk's personality but that it means that the whole ball game was about Frisk developing their personality, that why Frisk ""win "the ball game because this means that Frisk developed their own personality and this is why you cant get this message again."

During the ball game, the colors either were just that:The colors (the color of the flag displayed was colored in that color), or WERE the traits-The word "kindness" was green, for example. So, "Ball Game", by that reasoning, would actually BE the red trait.. Which it's not, because of the second red flag. In that sense, it just meant something was important. The real red trait is the second red flag.

"Though i think its metaphoric, symbolic, because i mean Frisk cant get their own personality for a so short amount of time,they likely get their own personality at the end of the game, at the end of the true pacifist run because its the "true end"(its been proven by the game code).For me, in the ball game context the whole personality development thing is a game"

You don't have to get the red flag at all, though. There's no reason to link the game to developing personalities, any more than discovering it.

"I never never said that pink represents fear or something in the game, nothing even implies that others traits do exist outside of the traits represented during the ball game."

You said colored text refers to the trait of said color. Pink text exists, as I showed. By this line of reasoning, there must exist a pink trait. Even though there isn't, which we can agree on.