Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180626004735

"Such explains why our soul refused to die. But not why we can reload, despite not being able to go back (since why else would our soul refuse, if it weren't for the fact that we cannot go back?)"

Um, we CAN go back.

"Actually, can't we always go back? We can always shut the game off."

Sure, but this is where we have to use someone else as aan example-We need to find out what happens if you die, and DON'T "stay determined" in time.

...Oh, you mean Omega Flowey. Well, you do mention what I was going to answer later on, so read on-There IS a reason as to why dying gives Asriel control!

"But in the case of Omega Flowey, we reappear for the fight, but with Asriel, it's at our last save (I'm actually just guessing here, I need a confirmation for this).

Actually, unlike in every other sitiation (save for when the world is no more), us closing the game is simply us "running away":https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N1mPgWJTLME We're not loading at all here.

"Ego, reloading puts you at the last place where a SAVE occured, no matter who carried it out. Isn't that interesting?"

File X, as we know it, is not LOADed. (Flowey SAVEs and LOADs within the battle frequently.) Flowey instead chooses to load File 3, at the start of the battle. Frisk did NOT keep the ability here.

"But anyways, this cannot be due to a DT flux. As I said, that would give US the full power, but that's clearly not the case. We can only reload, nothing else."

Actually, closing the game during the Asriel fight is just like closing the game any other time. We reopen the game, and are met with the menu, as if we had not encountered Asriel at all-We can LOAD our last SAVE, or reset. We have the full set, except for SAVing, and we can't normally SAVE during a battle anyway-We need SAVE points. Therefore, it is unreasonable to assume that Frisk lost ANY of their powers on these grounds alone.

"Anyone who realizes this would know that it's better to refuse tha to reload when they die in battle."

"But the problem is being determined enough to actually reach that state."

Ding ding ding. There you go. So, these six SOULs just weren't determined enough to do this. It's that simple. ...Why are they just as determined as Frisk again?

Let's do what we did for Asriel, Undyne, and Omega Flowey, and see which category Asgore's supposed fight would be. Does it fit with Frisk's refusal with Asriel and Undyne's refusal of death? Or would there not be a motivation for refusal, like with Omega Flowey?

...Wait, that'd be a parallel with the Sans fight, most likely. The situation is that we have a foe that would kill them over and over again, but at the same time, could be reloaded from. And Frisk couldn't refuse then, so the fallen humans logically wouldn't be able to either, seeing as the conditions were nearly identical-This can't fit into Asriel/Undyne's category. Therefore, I must declare my statement about the other humans "refusing" against Asgore as invalid-That would imply Frisk could refuse against Sans, when they can't, creating a contradiction. Good job.

"Hence why it only happens there. And also, considering that human souls are used to measure soul power, ergo, they're constant, the only thing that fluctuates is the amount of utilized DT, not the overall amount of DT in a soul. This is something I would agree with."

..All that implies is that SOUL power is constant. Nothing more. This does not mean that DT can't change. But, if we can say that the utilized DT, "DT magic", similar to "SOUL magic", is what determines who has the power, and to what extent this could be usd, this can still work out.

"Not really sure why our SOUL chooses to shatter, when it can just LOAD by other means, though."

"That's precisely why it shatters. To free the essence (the thing that houses one's memories) inside it so that it can move freely across space and time - back to the last save. That's like, the most sensible explanation."

Shattering IS LOADing? ..That would mean that when Frisk's SOUL split in half, it was about to undergo a LOAD-Something you've argued Frisk COULDN'T do under the grounds that it would make Asriel's plan of killing you to reset useless-And in this case, it WOULD, because it indicates that Frisk could still naturally LOAD by reaching the file-Otherwise, it wouldn't be about to shatter like that. We get the same problem you're trying to avoid here. (The SOUL splits in half before "re-fusing" in the fight. It's clear it was about to shatter.)

So, there has to be another reason why the SOUL shatters, but yet can "persist after death" (and we CAN'T say the plaques are wrong HERE, because, well, this was actually demonstrated when Asriel absorbed Chara's SOUL. They DO persist after death. This is a fact, else the absorption wouldn't be possible.)

"But we cannot by dying."

An important distinction that will tie into my answer.

"Perhaps. After all, Asriel didn't save in that fight, so this would work as an explanation. But then again, we can move in the first phase. What's up with that?"

Hmm, quite interesting that Asriel only mentions the ending of living in a world where no-one remembers you in his second phase. And how he puts you down to exactly 1HP just before his transformation, not killing you. Hmm, seems like he's just waiing around, and not just getting to the point. He probably wants to play with us before the reset. After all, we are inseparable, right Chara? (Note:Yeah, the fight's about how he thinks you're Chara. It's better to look into this as a relationship between Asriel and CHARA when looking at his motivations, then swap to the reality when looking at our own-This is because Asriel assumes the former, and thus acts on that behalf.)

"That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would he try to kill us, fully knowing that this aids us? No, if we die, he takes control. That's the entire premise. We aren't in control. If we were, he wouldn't be trying to kill us."

...Here it is. Time for my full-on solution to this.

First off, we have to consider that while we had the power, we couldn't utilize it normally, due to being physically contsrained by Asriel. Our only way of doing so would be through the process of closing the game, whatever that means in canon, not the natural process of dying and respawning. We try to reach our SAVE file, but cannot. Thus, the simple "stay determined" might not be enough, we might die off. And stay dead.

But, could we SAVE and LOAD then? Under your "red isn't determination" theory, the answer would be a plain no, because your theory posits that upon this death, the SOUL loses the ability to SAVE and LOAD, and we would be no different-Thus, it would follow that Asriel takes the ability, as we lose it.

But what about under my theory? Well, we have another case of something similar happening-The case of Chasriel. Chara died, and their essence must have split with Asriel's, because Asriel's essence spread across Asgore's garden, while Chara awakens in the Ruins as the narrator. (Plus Flowey doesn't retain any of Chara's memories.) The SOUL is completely shattered, as well. But, dying wouldn't be what Chara wanted-They would want to reload, and have another chance at killing the other humans.. But, they didn't. Why not? Well.. They couldn't. Their SOUL shattered, after all. (It didn't persist, there's a reason why Flowey didn't get his SOUL back, and why Chara didn't get theirs back when they reawaken. It's gone. Besides, the fact still stands that they didn't reload.)

Therefore, if we were to have passed the point where the shattering was complete, we would ALSO lose the ability to SAVE and LOAD, and it would be given to Asriel-He wanted us to die for real. Flowey's case of discovering the SAVE ability implies something similar-Flowey could reach the VERGE of death, and when that happens, as he started to leave the mortal world, THAT is when the instinct to "stay determined", happened, and he, on primal instict, decided he didn't want to die. But.. If he had let that happen, he would have died fully, and lost the ability.

Therefore, if we were to have passed the point where the shattering was complete, we would ALSO lose the ability to SAVE and LOAD, and it would be given to Asriel-He wanted us to die FULLY, so that we would lose it, so that it be given to him, seeing how he's the runner-up for this ability. THIS is why he makes it so that you can't move your body in phase 2-It's to prevent you from reaching your SAVE, and to make it so LOADing by dying is therefore impossible-Thus making Frisk die for real, to give the power to Asriel. Of course, if we're clever enough, I suppose we could try to close the game while the shattering's taking place. But we'll be too late eventually, won't we?

"But he SAVED. We don't know if Omega Flowey had the power to reset after killing us."

Yeah, he SAVEd. That's my point. Omega Flowey could SAVE. But all that stuff about each part of him being weaker as a reason for Asriel having to kill us to reset? That applies to Omega Flowey too, you know! So why doesn't this special case apply here too? And by the way, as I said before, he could delete our SAVE and load that. Also, he has plenty of SAVE slots, he could just LOAD the empty slot 3 before he saved over it. That'd be a reset too. If you can LOAD, you can reset. He had the full set of abilities. So, I ask again-Why wasn't he put under the same restrictions as Asriel? And why couldn't we LOAD by closing the game in this fight, unlike with Asriel?

"He never got to use it, and the ability was discarded each time he reloaded after our death. I'm just saying, it is a possibility, that if a transfer of power happens from a full soul to a stronger, but a composite being, the previous owner must be killed in order for the reset ability to also get transferred (though, who knows, maybe the previous owner can't use it either? Either way, we know the new one definitely cannot)."

It's actually a contradiction. We can't in Omega Flowey, but can in Asriel. Hey, have any way to resolve this contradiction?

"And this explanation works for the Omega Flowey battle too?"

Not under the same ruleset. There needs to be consistence.

"Got anything better, perhaps something simpler, with less assumptions about other things?"

I don't know about simpler, but mine has fewer contradictions, because mine has none, and yours doesn't have none.

"Or maybe it was just for an effect, maybe he didn't actually erase it. I mean, he can show all sorts of weird things on the screen. Why not a fake save point too for that matter?"

Showing them on the screen does not imply he can create illusions. It just means he can display things on his screen. Though, it is OUR save that gets destroyed, our previous one, while just before, we have a completely DIFFERENT "Flowey's world":This means Flowey did NOT overwrite our SAVE, but created a NEW file-And yet, the HUD still recognizes our own SAVE when we try to SAVE. Of course, it gives us no choice on the matter. It appears as though there's more to the case of how remnants of the power from previous owners worked than I thought before-I'll look into this phenomenon more-But ao far, it appears to indicate that when someone else gains the power, they do NOT use the last one's save, but their own slot. (Though, that kind of makes sense-There's no SAVE for us at the start, and a RESET takes us back to when we first gained the ability.)

"If I could control them as they fly, it would probably be a lot easier."

You CAN.. But only by concentration on said objects, as telekenesis would normally work. So, you're probably stuck to controlling 2, maybe three, at the same time, unless you're moving them as a group, and thus, the same way. Which won't help you hit SEPARATE targets.

"He'd have to put his power into each one, but wouldn't need to focus on each one individually. The way that monsters handle magic is a mystery, but why cannot magic persist/move without any constant conscious control?"

It can persist, and it can move, but it can't CHANGE. Essentially, it's bound to the same laws of motion as anything else-If you wish to change its velocity, you MUST consiciously make it that way. You MIST exert some magical force.

"Maybe humans cannot do it, but that doesn't make it any easier to the monsters. Isn't it the same for them according to your narrative, that they have to control each one individually?"

The monsters probably some natural connection with magic. Like, magic is a PART of them, in fact. As a result, magic is likely more autmoatic with them-That would explain why bullet patterns is just them represting themselves, that's their natural reaction, just as the complex movement of muscles required for us to move our hands and type these responses are natural to us!

I'm pretty sure that's difficult no matter what kind of a creature you are. Handling that much information at once is simply unfeasible."

Infeasible. That was my point-And why humans can't represent themselves with magic. And if monsters didn't have the mystical connection with magic that they do, they wouldn't be able to either!

"Maybe for monsters, their attacks do run on an "auto" mode that I've described above, but then, can't that be the case with human attacks too?"

Because they're not connected with magic as the monsters do. That is their difference. That is the reason why they can't represent their magic. That is why monsters take pride in their magic. If they could, that would lead to a contradiction with the evidence you yourself presented-Humans not being able to represent themsleves from magic. Unless you want to argue that the book is wrong, and humans CAN represent themselves through magic. :)

"Why not? It would certainly simplify the entire deal with magic attacks over here."

And contradict the evidence you used to posit that humans don't use magic in the first place, and that wizards were a special case. ...Yeah, no. Is the book true or not?

"And about wands and whatnot, that does make sense. Physical matter could pose an obstacle for human magic. It would first need to be teleported outside of the body."

Maybe..

"Or not. Who knows who those guys really were."

The intro shows them as humans, so they were humans.

"If I recall correctly, you yourself don't believe that the plaques are telling the truth. You believe that something they say has never happened before actually did happen before. So why are you even bringing it up?"

Those plaques are the only evidence that supports the idea of humans absorbing boss monster SOULs. Plus, in my case, monsters had a motive to alter the information-To absolve themselves of blame for the war. What would be their motivations for saving that a human has never absorbed a monster SOUL? Can't have a conspiracy without a motive. :3

"They were virgins."

...All of them? That's quite unlikely, especially when consider that they're not the first ones with this power, seeing as the odds of eight humans getting the same random mutation in the same generation that gives them such a trait is quite unlikely-There's a reason why evolution takes millions of years. :3

"Sharing their wares, consumables, etc. Magic is not essential to humans. All they need is provided by their physical body. The soul is just a cherry on top. So naturally, their magic would diminish over the years without any supplements."

Absorbing magic from monster food? ..Well then. Let's see where that logic takes us.

Possibility 1-Magic itself is "consumable" for humans:They can only use what they have, and no more. That's the only way that gaining magic through consumables would work. (Problem:Why did the humans have ALL of their magical power, after a long battle where monsters didn't support them with more food to replenish their magic, to make a barrier of the FULL power of seven human SOULs?) Possibility 2-The WARES gives you the ABILITY to use magic. (So.. Why did the humans throw away their magical wares that allows them to use magic after making the Barrier? It'd be more beneficial to just keep all the wares.)

"You really felt like replying to that sentence was constructive in any way towards your overall response, knowing fully well I would explain it further down the path?"

Above, actually, and hey, that's a real critique, seeing how I've already shown how they seem to, in fact, NOT logically work without contradicting evidence within the game. Which I had shown above, before then. It was my response to your conclusion, that stated that there were many logical alternatives to my take-I was questioning their credibility, with my evidence being my rebuttals above:Just as the statement I repaonded to was the conclusion of your arguments above, so my question was the conclusion to my rebuttals above.

"And the alternative boosts us to literally hundreds, one for each type of behavior, mental trait, or condition."

Just like actual humans in real life! (Hey, weren't YOU the one arguing that reducing the humans to 7 groups and saying those don't act like us was ludicrous?)

"I chose the first option, and also the narrative that this does not represent their real psychological traits (as humans are obviously more complex than that), which is something the game kinda supports anyways, with how the name of the traits don't always fit their functions."

...If by "functions", you mean "mode", remember, modes aren't the same as traits. Because of the fact that, well, the names of the traits DON'T fit the modes.

"Magic is not a trait. Their white souls represent the absence of any trait for that matter. They have no "specialization", you could say."

..Why can't humans ALSO have "no specilization", and have a white SOUL? Why must a white SOUL be limited only to monsters? And why can't monsters have colored SOULs, for those that DO have specilization, like Undyne's bravery?

"As if... it was the only soul mode that actually aids you."

Yep-Not really balanced traits anymore, are they? Also, it means yellow MUST have red inside of it, and red MUST only be a part of yellow.. Which COMPLETELY contradicts what the traits are by the ball game.

"Cannot the others also exist in a beneficial form, and could this one exist in a harmful form?"

..What determines that, and what about the "natural" mode? Red's neither beneficial nor harmful, seeing as all the other trais are worse than red, as red is freedom, with the others limiting your movement without giving any kind of benefit. Except for green. (That means there's 21 mechanics, if this is the case. Wow.)

"I guess blue could be used to override other modes already applied to a soul (by making you the one in control of it)"

..I guess that works..

"purple could be used to "phase" through obstacles by putting two strings on either side of the obstacle and then moving"

Well, looks like even you've tossed out the idea of the modes matching the trait descriptions. There's nothing about being trapped, this is the opposite of being trapped! But yes, that works. Only if we assume that it's these mechanics of fighting styles that defines your trait..

"green could be like a healing aura,"

DOES match the style..

"and harmful yellow could be used to, idk... where does the magic for the yellow bullets come from? From draining the DT/magic of a soul? Something like that?"

Same magic that makes the shield appear in green, and the webs to move across appear in purple. And while I don't have an answer (if I did, I wouldn't be arguing against it), I AM going to help you out here:What would match "justice", but still be harmful to you? If there's one that works, it'll be the answer to what it would be like.

"And what about cyan and oragne for that matter... any ideas?"

Cyan is patience, waiting for the perfect oppertunity. It's mode would have something to do with that. Cyan attacks can be dodged by not moving, so not moving would have something to do with its mode. If it was a harful magic, it'd mean you can't move. Which would make the patience kid die in the Ruins.

Orange is bravery, rushing through obstacles. Perhaps, then, if you're moving right through a bullet, you won't be affected by it? You have to move right through it, though-Moving away from it and it catching up to you doesn't count. Neither does moving, say, perpendicular to it, and it catching up to you before you make it past. (Otherwise, you could just keep moving and stay invincible.) A harmful variation would simply be that you can't stop moving. If you don't do anything to make yourself move (aka let go of the arrow keys), you'll just keep moving in the direction you were before, bouncing off walls.

"Well, the same could be the case for Flowey's magic pellet arrays."

Which, guess what, doesn't actually represent himself in any way. (Also, the circle closing in wouldn't be it getting smaller and staying a circle-It would have each individual pellet move, and then get closer to the center when it reaches a certain point-That's the closest we could get to making our circle smaller via juggling, after all.)

"What about a repulsion field that makes the bullets move away from some point? You could also control their movement that way."

The complex bullet patterns that we see cannot be fully explained this way, save for Asgore's rings of fire that start at the center and expand. (Which is not his only pattern, by the way.) What about Toriel's spiraling flame pattern? Or Papyrus' complex bone attacks? Or Undying spear patterns? (Only including the red mode, the green one's patterns are relatively simple.) And NO, you could NOT control their movement that way-They would just move in the opposite direction that the field is relative to them-Esentially working as an anti-gravitational field. (Hence why I said Asgore's ring of fire could be replicated, but nothing else.)

Also, it seems as if Asgore was able to make all of those bullets apoear, instantaneously, at the same time. How could a human compare to that?