Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-33883848-20180706214050

The monsters didn't know about Frisk when they built the game. We need an in-universe explanation. What's the purpose of the game WITHIN THE WORLD OF UNDERTALE? In my theory, it was likely designed as a personality test:You play based on your personality, and the game gives you a flag based on how you play, telling you wait trait best represents you. Personality quizzes are a thing on the internet, after all. ...We need an in-universe explanation.."

I also think its a personality quiz:regards which tactics a monster use, they get a flag that correspond to a trait and the tactics they used to win.But if the tactics used are outside of the ones that corresponds to one of the 6 traits, they get the red flag.

But if the narrator is the one behind the messages behind the flags and that Frisk "develop their personality"(as a game not for real after all those tests should not be taken seriously but as part of the fun)by following their feelings during this game,  then the whole ball game was about Frisk "developing their own personality"for the narrator, that's why they say "ball game"by using red text. But for the ball game's perspective Frisk only get the red flag because they used tactics that doesn't corresponds to one of the 6 traits

"All that doesn't matter if they use it in the Genocide Run, because it only takes one counterexample to prove a rule wrong."

In genocide, the red text reflects Chara's strong feelings about simething such as the family photo, the sweater because now they act like a "real person", perhaps because in this run they don't want to hide their identity because Frisk is "their best friend"because you have proven to them that Asriel betrayed them. You may point out the fact that they say "I unlocked the chains"in red so that it means they doesn't use the red text to reflect their strong feelings but don't forget that those chains are the last obstacle that prevent Chara to kill the rest of their family(they dont know about Sans's fight here), so it logical why they strongly feel about this obstacle because by unlocking the chains themself they emotionally prepare to kill the rest of their family. So in this case it doesn't make sence for them to use red text for "the hole"because why would they strongly feel about a hole? Unless as I said they use red text because they know the rules of this game, which means that "hole"is the red trait

"It's like with Toriel. In fact, they have no reason to do this to represent the red trait, because before the game begins, they would have no idea how the game works, or anything about its connection to traits."

Yes but if they use different colors for different traits in the ball game, that means they already know how the game work. Plus chances are that they already know the ball game from their life in the underground and know what red trait means. Plus the hole is in part of the game, if its not the main part

"Only the flags do this, though. Chara has no reason to do this with a hole, before even knowing what's going on."

I don't think that the flags do it because in this case the narrator would say "there's something written here.. "as they always do in the game. Plus the flags completely lack of any single indication of a writing.

"True, it's indicated the other times, but the sprites were larger as well. Signs have bigger sprites than the small flag sprite. Remember, the player's vision is pixelated:We can't see the small writing."

Even so the sprites are small there's always an indication of a writing, Alphys's notes in the lab or Asgore's note its a proof

"To be determined, you must be brave, so you don't run away in fear. You need to perservere to the end. You need to be patient, and be willing to wait as long as it takes. You need care and concern for your goal, as without a passion, you cannot have determination. And so on."

1.To be determined....well you have to be determined.. i mean real world's determination means "a strong will to achieve a goal". Frisk don't need kindness or patience etc.. to have a strong will to achieve a goal, just be determined 2.Determination in the world of Undertale is the" will to live to overcome death", so to have this, Frisk doesn't need any kindness, bravery(which honestly oppose the notion of the "will to live on"because we wants to overcome death because of fear which oppose bravery) just to "want to overcome death. So in this case and in previous case your argument doesn't make sence

Plus real world's determination is literally derives from perseverance, because perseverant people are perseverant because they have a strong will to achieve their goal. So if anything,determination is related to perseverence's hosts

"Logic shows that it would take some time for the power to travel, though. It doesn't move instanteously. Eventually, it would reach the cities, but the game ends before that would happen. We keep the power. What in the game proves that Asriel was brought back as Flowey specifically because of Alphys' determination injections? (Hopefully we at least agree this is what happened). What in the game proves that Chara isn't a megalomaniac who kills just to kill? When the game offers multiple possibilites, we're supposed to choose the more logical option. What makes more sense:Frisk is now the most determined being in the universe, even though now that there's no danger, they have no reason to be, or that the power of S/L/R takes time to move/spread, just like EVERYTHING ELSE DOES?"

Once again I think Frisk have this power because of Chara's determination. Perhaps Chara really have suicidal issues now given the consequences of their plan...which is suggested by the fact that they were suicidal in life"I would follow your footsteps I would erase my self from existence",and that they decided to use buttercups because of how they felt guilty about Asgore poisoning but that Asriel very encouraged them to live on(given that he assumes Chara would be surprised knowing he is suicidal himself), so they have this big amount of determination because it would cause pain to Asriel if they die, so they try to erase all the idea of suicide thanks to Asriel.In the genocide run, its a whole different history, , they know that the plan failed because of Asriel and given that they really want to achieve your common goal and that monsters would not truly give you any mercy(because you have proven the kill or be killed rule), so they still really determined.When they are killed its Asgore's words that keep them determined. Pretty sure that Frisk determination itself is pretty weak, after all why would they have so much determination because of a lab or a lamp... Pretty ridiculous things fills Frisk with determination, dont think that those things would give them too much willigness to live. They doesn't seems to be that attached to life because those reasons are very  lower comparing to Chara's. Seriously Toby why did you make a so depressing characters, who are also kids?. And I don't think that time power need time to travel because when Frisk load or recept they affect the whole underground immediately, which is by the way veery big as showed by all the buildings in the ruins, new home,and the Snowdin's forest. .

"That was never implied in Genocide, though." Well the genocide run can be gave up by any time by failing to kill any monster or by giving up during Sans or Undyne's battle or by resisting. So in this case Frisk didnt have that much real world's determination in the genocide run either

"The door isn't directly to the Surface-We don't see sunlight coming out. We likely had to walk uphill some more, but that was skipped, just like us being moved back to Room 1 from Room 2 was skipped."

What??..... Okay here all facts

1.When you enter in Asgore's room in neutral run, the white barrier is here 2.When the barrier is destroyed in the pacifist run... the barrier is no longer here obviously. So Frisk can move freely in this room and by crossing the place where the barrier was present, they get  a new place and  a purple door which is right in front of them 3.Croosing this door lead to the surface 4.After Omega's Flowey fight in neutral end, you are no longer in the place when there was the barrier, Asgore's room 5.The "new place"Frisk get in the neutral end is the place you can get when the barrier is destroyed in the pacifist run, more precisely the  place Frisk can get in the pacifist run when they cross the place where the barrier was present(Asgore's room)

6.There's the same purple door in front of them in this place in neutral run . 7. This door lead to the surface as shown in the pacifist en. In neutral end, Frisk cross this door. 9.So Frisk get the surface, which lead to the "game's end". After all, the game was about Frisk returning on the surface

In conclusion during Photoshop Flowey fight, both Frisk and Flowey cross the barrier. Which is not shown during the fight because were were "on battle interface", most likely Flowey cross it because he had the 6 souls back then and Frisk because of Chara's essence

"If that's the case, why does the wall have to be the Barrier at all? Why can't the Barrier still be ahead of us?"

the white wall is the barrier as Asgore says so, so what is out of it is no longer the barrier (as I showed in my previous points). Or I don't understand to what you make allusion to...

"Like two human SOULs, but humans can't absorb extra human SOULs."

Or like a human soul(as humans naturally possess more determination than the monsters)  and a strong human essence

"No, you must be thinking of when two SOULs combine. Two essences combining in one body just means they share the power already in the SOUL. Chara's power came from the stolen SOUL, and Flowey has a plan to raise that power even higher. Likely by killing the monsters, gaining LOVE, and possibly absorbing Asgore's SOUL." Flowey literally says that what make Chara stronger is themself and their "stolen "soul "Even more powerful THAN YOU and your stolen soul".(instead of just "your stolen soul") Which Indicate that Chara essence make Frisk soul stronger.

"Why would they need a red SOUL? Flowey didn't need a SOUL at all. And, by the way, if red was determination, we could just say the other humans didn't have enough determination."

The other humans had enough determination, after all they had the recept power. "Chara's essence was likely "attracted "by Frisk soul (that's why they were attached to Frisk's soul at first place) because it had the same color their soul had when they were alive(proven by their coffin) and Frisk's determination awoke this essence. So both played a role on Chara awaking .Others humans didn't attracted their essence because they didn't have the same soul color Chara had

"They share our will to live. They have determination, but that's OUR determination they have, not their own. It's exactly as the speech said:Their determination was not in fact theirs, but ours."

Flowey literally says that he come back to life not because of the injected determination(you know the determination of the humans souls) but because of his own fear of death.And if this injected determination really give him any will to live, i doubt he would ever think of "erasing himself from existence". Which means that soulless beings have their own determination, independent of the determination of their "host". Which means that Chara can have determination independently of Frisk's one.The one they use to revive themself and Frisk

"Perhaps because even still, they could still remind Frisk of how important determination is."

Dude if Chara didn't have any "willingness to live on"(#determiantion) why would they ever want Frisk to stay alive?? They don't want to die?? Doesn't that means they have their own determination?. Plus why would a message addressed to an unknown person revive Frisk? Its more logically to say that Frisk revive after hearing this message because Chara revive them

"That happens because of their connection in essence. As for the "It's me, Chara", that only happens at LV19, when they're already starting to gain some power over Frisk, physically able to possess Frisk-That's where they make their first kill-Sans. Then comes Asgore, then Flowey, and then they gain enough power to become fully physical, now separate from Frisk, acting as their own entity"" Wow wow I only use the "its me Chara"to proove that Chara is inside of Frisk not flying around...And by the way they say "Its me Chara"firstly in Toriel's house(check it yourself) And the whole gaining physical form its not supported by the game and what Frisk see at the end of the genocide run its likely a projection of Chara, they are likely not really physically present. That's why they face Frisk at the second genocide when they have Frisk soul while given how souls  work in Undertale(consciousness is in souls), they would not adress to Frisk because they're an empty body and would directly address to Frisk'soul.

"As Chasriel demonstrated, if two people share a body, they share control of that body."

I KNOW that the player control Frisk(though indirectly the player also control Chara because Frisk and Chara share the same body... yeah the whole thing its really complicating..... though in Chara's perspective Frisk is in control given that they always use "you"when you choose to do something, which always refers to Frisk"Still just you Frisk", so in short the player control both of them but from the two protagonists's perspective, Frisk is the one in control..... Yeah its complicating.... )

."Both are true in a way. Chara gave that message to revive Frisk, to keep themself alive."

So if Chara want to keep themself alive then they have a "will to live "(determination). So see the paradox of your reasoning?

"The other fallen humans had no real danger until after they left HOME. So, why did they get determined when they fell?

Also, this has to work for Frisk too, so.. What's the deal here?"

As I suggested, Frisk develop this power when they fell because of Chara's essenc.Its also interesting to notice that their power ONLY came when they fell on Chara's grave but not when they were about to fall(they were in fact already in the underground when they were about to fall) that why when you recept you return to specifically in this place(Chara's grave). Which strongly support my theory. For others fallen children, nothing implies that they developed their recept power immediately when they fell. Its more seems like they firstly developed their power when Toriel explained that the underground was full of monsters who want to fight them(she explains very early that the underground is full of monsters who will attack humans, more precisely :right before dummy fight)

"The first message only shows that you need the six other traits to get the red trait. The second explains another property of the trait."

Well no, the second one doesn't explain another property at all. Here what it says "Try as you might YOU CONTINUE to be yourself", the second flag only says that by using the tactics that corresponds to themslef(since those tactics allows them to get the red flag, the one that correspond to them), they "continue to be yourself", which is logical. Something so obvious wouldn't replace the first message about red trait property   unless as I suggested there's no need as this first flag indicated that Frisk developed their own personality during their first try. The second message only says that "Frisk continue to be themself", something they already were at the first try

"So, you claimed the red trait was about making your own trait, when it's clear blue means THE EXACT SAME THING. ..See the problem now?"

There's not any problem at all. Integrity means "to have an ORIGINAL style"but red soul hosts can have a similar personality while integrity's hosts can't, they can only have an original personality, each integrity's hosts personality differ from each other. I guess there's also the "always be honest state"that counts for integrity soul because its real world 's definition for "integrity ", something that not count for red soul's hosts(As integrity is related to have an original style I believe that integrity's fallen human was a boy who liked  ballet and who did not hide it).