Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27136653-20180228205701/@comment-32182236-20180416174037

"Yes, it is a coincidence, which is the point of the joke here. But Loox doesn't walk on its eyes. It has arms and feet and whatnot. Also, Chara mentioned his family name, which was "Eyewalker". They don't mention the family name of any other monster we encounter, supporting the idea that this was just a joke they've made."

Good, actual evidence-Sort of like my evidence for monsters having one way due to being trapped. But, perhaps it's because Chara found this one particularly funny or interesting. I mean, it's clear that the "Loox" joke dates back all the way to his birth-After all, that's his name. And his last name didn't just come from himself. It's a family name. So it dates back to ancient times. Maybe it was a mistranslation..? (Not by Toby, by the humans/monsters)

Besides, it's easier to remember a name like Eyewalker, when it goes to a literal eye with legs, then, say, Dawkins, or McInteyre. (Names like Wright and Smith could be somewhat easy, but it would be harder to know who's who.. When you've been dead for a long time. Plus, the monsters wouldn't share any of our last names, due to the fact that last names are family names, and humans and monsters are entirely different species.) Combine that with the Eyewalker actually being funny, and there we go. Chara was actually making fun of them and their name.

"Why THANK you, finally you've presented some solid evidence for your point. But then again, we see that Waterfall is leveled with New Home. Maybe there were routes in the past that are no longer there, or, there are some, but they're difficult to access. Which is why many monsters prefer waiting in the lobby. I don't think this fact is significant enough to prove anything about the direction the monsters took when they first came to the underground. Especially not if we have only a vague idea about the actual shape of the terrain."

Actually, the castle in Waterfall isn't New Home. As we know, New Home's castle is gray, with the objects within it being black-and white. The screen isn't black-and white, because we still see Frisk in full color. This doesn't match the castle of Waterfall. Therefore, it must be a different castle. This more likely where the base of Royal Guard would be. (Though really, we don't know for sure what the castle is for.)

Also, why would monsters waste their time destroying a route? Why not just keep that route as a failsafe? We both know the elevator CAN get errors and stop working-We saw it happen with our own eyes in the game!

"I've been doing that for nearly two years now, alas, to no avail. Toby didn't give us nearly enough info to figure everything out with an absolute confidence."

Or he hid them so well and scattered the pieces so well so that the only way to solve it is by putting ALL the small details together. Sort of like Scott with FNAF, except he's not adding on extra games every few months.. By now we're probably at..


 * After a google..|

Wait, Scott, you even stopped numbering the games?

Anyways, hopefully you see my point.

"I have no idea what you're trying to do here. The picture features a mountain, ergo, the humans started below it. Whenever we're talking about a mountain, the humans ALWAYS start at the bottom. As for cliffs, perhaps you mean a ravine, or a canyon. Then, yes, they would start at the top."

I was referring to the actual, vertical cliff with stairs carved-Not the angled mountain you showed me earlier. The latter is very well possible to do from the bottom up.

"Frisk didn't pick up the phonecall. And I don't think they could intercept internet messages anyways. There's too much info floating about, most sites are protected, and the signal itself never travels through the ground. It goes through underwater cables across oceans. Unless we're talking about mobile phone data networks. Which is so oddly specific anyways that I'm not putting much faith into such possibility."

That's because either Frisk is trapped in the space of the Barrier (Like some theories that Frisk never made it past the barrier hypothesize), or they crossed it. Exits are not the same as entrances as far as barriers are concerned.

"Anything can enter through the seal, but only beings with a powerful SOUL can leave."

Signals can enter.. but they can't leave. Frisk wouldn't be able to respond to the signal, because it never got there. But, then.. how are we even hearing the call in the first place? Is Chara narrating it from outside the Barrier? Nope. If signals can't cross, neither can sound. So, there is evidence that Frisk never crossed the Barrier in Neutral. Besides, Flowey isn't playing around in the Surface when we re-open, and we know for a fact Flowey is with Frisk, because, well.. They speak to Frisk?

"The two races developed separatedly. Arriving at the same result after a thousand years I find very... improbable. Besides, where do you think the monsters were using this phrase the most? In real life? This phrase doesn't really work when someone speaks to you directly instead of showing you a baity passage of text. Either Asriel/Flowey had to spend a lot of time on the undernet, or..."

I really don't see why he couldn't have spent time on the Undernet. And yes, I do agree the phrase is used in the Undernet more than in real life.

We already know while they developed separately, their language remained the same. After all, it's proven by the tapes that when Chara fell, they shared the same language as the monsters. This isn't just Toby translating everything from the original "monster". (Though you could argue he was translating everything from the original Navajo.)

"You're asking me why didn't the humans add a stopping system? I dunno, probably because it was easier this way. My point is in the design of the elevator. How it clearly rides horizontally there at (technically two) points"

I have an explanation, but it clearly goes against your theory.. Because my explanation is that they simply couldn't. Anyways, the fact that it's only practical for short distances is why I had argued that this kind of elevator is a bad example, and said this does not show it being possible to get to the cliff.

But, we already know monsters are ahead of our time, and in 2016, actual horizontal elevators, those that don't rely on wheels, and can therefore reliably travel more than a few meters horizontally, have been tested in Germany. So, we could see them becoming more mainstream in the 2020s. Considering what we already know about their futuristic technology level, it's very likely monsters have already gotten there. They weren't like this when they first got to Hotland, hence the original argument, but hey, it's already been debunked by the wooden bridge in Hotland. All it takes is one problem with the theory to bust it/prove it wrong. And you've successfully pointed one out.

"Because you can use your feet most of the time. And if not, then make a bridge, or a cable car or something. Horizontal elevators simply aren't very practical."

...Did you even read the question? I asked why there weren't non-horizontal elevators that worked the same way. Previously I asked why they made these elevators not stop. Then, I asked why if there was some kind of advantage, why people didn't do the same time with non-horizontal elevators.

"I've found metal-only scaffolds on google images. I don't know what your source is, but it's wrong."

Well, good thing it's fixed now. And, by fixed, I mean that definition was completely removed and replaced with "A structure made by scaffolding."

Yeah, my source was googling it and looking at the defintions that show straight away from that. And I did it again, and it does indeed say this one now. Though I found a source that's worded almost precisely the same way, but says "or" rather than "and".. Which supports your point of view. I'd say we should close this point now.

"Which is why I think that this didn't happen within 250 years. Especially not if they went into hiding at first according to you."

Well, the first step to doing it is to ditch the ridiculous system of alchemy, and skip straight to deriving chemistry. Which didn't begin for us until around 1550~1700. So, the monsters have an advantage of CENTURIES if they just ditch alchemy and go through the Scientific Revolution sooner. That's what I argued they did, and this played a massive part in them being ahead of humans today. Arguably as massive as, if not MORE massive than what Gaster did. (Unless Gaster IS the one who initiated the revolution, a very possible scenario. In fact, perhaps this was the move Gaster did to gain his fame for being brilliant, and he lead the then newly found science division, though not making every discovery)

Then, over 250 years, Gaster did something similar to Telsa, and invented the CORE. He had centuries to do this, unlike Telsa, so he has an advantage over Telsa.

"Because logic, amirite?"

Actually, because black isn't the color of the ground. But, now that I think of it, magma gives off light, so it would make sense why we can ONLY see the magma and nothing else from there (Besides the CORE itself)

"Out of the last three, only part 7 speaks about history, and only slightly."

As you said, that's just the footnote. What about the rest of the book that we never get to see? And when I said 6-8 were needed to understand history, it was for the reasons I've mentioned before-Volume 6 to explain why monsters couldn't just heal Chara, Volume 7 to explain how Asriel crossed the barrier, and Volume 8 either to explain Asriel's SOUL lingering, or to explain Asgore's declaration of war that seemed to mirror the humans' own declaration of war-Humans CAN absorb SOULs.. Of boss monsters.

"Plus, it's not like we see dates in the book or anything. I've never seen a history book that would be structured in such a way like this one. This cannot possibly be the mantra they're being taught from. As I said, the books are very subjective, ergo unsuitable as a teaching material. As I said, it looks more like someone's personal notes."

None of the events mentioned (that we see) are events that would need to be dated. What we see of Parts 6-8 are the footnote explanations, which need not be dated. Part 1 describes merely the settlement in Home, which would be around the same time as the surrender to the humans, which WOULD be dated. (But we don't see it.) Part 4 describes the journey to New Home. "Fearing the humans no longer, we moved out of our old home." Something had to have caused that. This prior event is what was dated.

Also, it's not for schools, I didn't say they were, but it's not personal notes. As I stated before, I consider them as education outside of schools, like Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time".

"You could easily argue that the books that talk about monster essences and funerals have nothing to do with history. But for the same reason you could argue that part 6 has nothing to do with history either. The two talk about a very similar topic and yet, one is included and one isn't."

Part 6 is about how monsters aren't experienced with illness, to fill in the "plot hole" on why they could do nothing about healing Chara.

"Well there you have it."

Never said it had to be for schools. Remember:My argument is that it's like "A Brief History of Time". So, take that into consideration when you go to refute it.

"It's not just that, it's also the manner in which a normal information is conveyed. For example, "in a way, this confusing situation was all too familiar."

This was a reference to Chara's death-The familiarity being with Asgore growing ill from the same thing. It was confusing because, as the same volume states, monsters didn't understand sickness-They had no experience.

"Alchemists. And no, I'm not. I'm taking all the knowledge and facts I can find. I don't care if you think that that's "cheating", it's not. Police investigators also check everything, they don't stick to just one type of examination."

First off, props for you to noticing the mistake in spelling. Second, you're also grabbing "false" knowledge, specifically, ones involving Toby Fox. They're assumptions. A better analogy would be if I declared that there is a God who created this world, made up how he was like, and then used that description to explain things about this universe. For example:This world was created with the purpose for us to thrive, and our ending is to live in world peace.. Evolution is FAKE because this world was created as a story, and this creator wouldn't want to have to wait 13.5 billion years just to see humans. What we know as dinosaurs were simply scrapped animals that never made it.. Either that or God forgot to tell Noah to put them on the ark.

...That's my analogy of your arguments. Hopefully you understand why.

By the way, I have one for Rafip's thing against human essence as well-Special relativity is wrong because we don't see the space-time curves-The distortions are errors in God's design.

Hopefully you get the gist here. By the way, this hypothetical god I'm using in these analysis is NOT perfect. They're closer to the Greek gods than what we modernly associate with "God". Though, you probably should have sorted that out since I explicitly called things an error.

"The fact is, that Toby wrote each of these passages and labeled them "monster history"."

Yes, that is indeed true.. if we assume he did all the storytelling, but that's a reasonable one to make..

"The fact IS, that he didn't write an actual book for each one."

He could have still thought out of how such a book would be like, and written the things just before and just after it, creating the clear context that these passages are within. Here's part of a hypothetical Volume 1, with the quote we see in the game bolded.

"Long ago, both monsters and humans ruled together peacefully. One day, the humans attacked us, causing a war, because they feared our power. In the end, it could hardly be called a war. Eventually, we surrended to the humans. Seven of their greatest magicians banished us to the underground, with a magic barrier. Trapped behind the barrier and fearful of more human attacks, we retreated. Far, far into the earth we walked, until we reached the cavern’s end. This was our new home, which we named... “Home”. As great as our king is, he is pretty lousy with names. 

Here's a larger segment of what Volume 4 could have looked like:

"Fearing the humans no longer, we moved out of our old city, HOME. We braved harsh cold, damp swampland, and searing heat... Until we reached what we now call our capital. “NEW HOME.” Again, our King is really bad at names...? Alongside the journey, cities were formed as well.. Snowdin, Waterfall, and Hotland. Once again, our king is bad with names."

Of course, there would be some after what you see in Volume 1, and before what you see in Volume 4, but for us, that's just speculation.

"The assumption is, that he didn't write anything unimportant to the plot in these, and the assumption is, that the volumes missing from the game and the game's files previously existed, but he scrapped them. Is this too hard to understand?"

You're applying out-universe logic to in-universe canon. You argue that since Toby wouldn't write anything unimportant to the plot, and that 2-3, and 5 existed and were deleted.. As in, they didn't get the same fate as some ACTUAL scrapped entires, like 6-8. Not only that, you're using that and applying it to the actual canon.. Despite that it's a FACT that the volumes are more than what we see in the game-As we both know, what we see is just a random page. Not the full volume/part. So, what should we be building our theories on the canon universe from? The fact that what we see isn't the full volume, or the assumption that all Toby wrote was what we saw, and then say that somehow means the canon fact is wrong, and analyze canon as if that was literally the whole thing? I mean, just looking at the context of the start of what we see of Volume 1-"Trapped behind the barrier and fearful of further human attacks"

Further human attacks.. Alluding to previous ones, which were explained earlier on in the book that we never got to see! And Toby placed that there himself. He INTENDED that this would not be the start of the book. So please.. Just follow canon, so we can reach the canon truth. After that we can start talking about what the moral is, now that we'll have known the full story.

So Toby really did have a story in mind that he didn't reveal directly. We have to put the pieces together.

"You're sometimes basing your own theories on a plenty of consecutive assumptions too."

At least they don't directly contradict canon evidence, tied as one of the two worst things a theory can do. (It's specifically tied with contradicting ITSELF. However, the latter doesn't apply if this "contradiction" was that you made a later theory after figuring out problems with an earlier theory.. while the former ALWAYS applies. So you could argue the former is the SINGLE worst thing.)

"Alchemy was mostly about trial and error. Yes, they've had their preconceptions, but with alchemy, they were trying to experiment and discover new things. As I said, that's how gunpowder was discovered. The only difference between alchemy and chemistry is, that chemistry doesn't use ridiculous methods, therefore, it can discover and make sense of things much faster."

In my analogy, I was STRICTLY speaking of preconceptions and the ridiculous methods used. The "trial and error" doesn't apply to the four elements. Because it was considered an unquestionable FACT. (It was wrong.) That's what I meant when I said you were like an alchemist. Whenever there's a problem, you call it a plot hole. Can you give me the rules to your "plot hole trials"? (Yes, the play-on to "witch trials" was intentional. Because that's how I see all of this.)

"You're assuming that he did it "just because". I'm assuming that he did it, because he already had it, but then scrapped it, becauase he found a better way to tell the story. "

No, I'm saying none of this matters. We don't know what Toby was thinking, so we should just not use him as evidence. We should go with what the game shows, and nothing else. Anything could have been in those volumes as long as they were events between the two. So we can't say Chara HAD to have fallen in that time period.

"Technically, we also know nothing about the monsters. They don't exist in our world. Who knows how their minds really function and reason. "

Actually, we do, based on how they are in the game. We're analyzing that world, not our own. "Alright. Since you know about Earthbound (unlike me), what do YOU think Toby was thinking when he was writing these? And make sure to include Earthbound in your explanation. " I'm just as clueless as I say you are. Only reason why I know he was inspired by Earthbound was because he originally called the game Underbound 2. Not everything he did was Earthbound based. Just like not everything he did was Chara based. That was my point, and if you looked at the sentences past that, maybe you would have understood my argument. I'll go over it a second time. As we know, Undertale was inspired by Earthbound. So, does that make Sans Ness? I mean, there's a lot of similarities between the two, and Toby wouldn't just give Sans the same "shortcut" ability for nothing, right? (Ness can also teleport, often by traveling the wrong way. Not only that, he has a badge. Franklin Badge?

…No, I don’t actually believe in the Sans is Ness theory. I do believe that it’s the logical conclusion of going meta, though.) "He definitely had his notes somewhere, so that he didn't forget. I have mine too. Then, he started including them in the game as these books. But then, he scrapped some of them in favor of a better storytelling method. That's what I think. There was no "rest of the volume". These were just the individual points he took from the "master summary" - as you could call it. He definitely did not start by making 8 "monster history books" and then included only some information from them in the game. That's just silly. " I didn’t say a full book. Just a little more, and a draft on what the rest of the book would be like. Then, he took a middle part of it, and took it out of context, which is why we see it be phrased this way. "Fearful of further human attacks" implies the humans attacked before. And that "before" is the war, mentioned earlier! I go over how it may have looked above.

"That's a big maybe. Assuming he wrote about the smallest of things, but not about this. Especially if these are literally called "monster history"." If he didn’t write everything, he may not have written about Chara. Or, maybe he did write about Chara, and that was in the later volumes before he trimmed it. Besides, Volume 5 is missing too. Why can’t that be Chara by your reasoning? "Parts 6 through 8 were also explained somewhere in the game other than through the volumes themselves. "

Hence them being scrapped. By the way, in the very same quote, I even acknowledged the possibility that he wrote about Chara in the later volumes before scrapping it. Or, maybe all of this doesn’t matter, because we’re supposed to be analyzing Undertale’s world, not our own.

"Logic does. Notice that parts 6 through 8 are continuous. " Volume 6 is not continuous with Volume 7. The situation was familiar because it was similar to Fallen Down, as the same passage states. Volume 7 does not link with Volume 6 at all. There is a link between Volume 7 and 8, which is why I originally stated that the statement in Volume 8 was near the very start. Now I say it was a footnote that is OF the very start.

"He could have just written this off as simply three different pages in the same book. " Not if Volumes 6-7 aren’t continuous. "But he didn't. This shows that each part is not its own book, but just a smaller sub-part of a larger narrative. I'm not saying all of them are continuous. " No, it’s a book. And unlike you, I have proof!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5QVhNeFFiTVNaRk0 (Strangely, the project is missing the "Far, far into the earth they walked. " But image 2, look at that.) "They most likely aren't either, due to the large time span they cover. " Exactly. They're not. That's how there was enough to fill the book in the first place, and why there's a gap between Volume 1 and Volume 4.

"But this already puts a shade on the idea that each one of these is a stand-alone piece of information, independent of the others. " It's all a series. World War I lead to Germany being blamed, which eventually lead up to World War II. "I mean, why would he split a continous narrative that talks about the same thing into multiple books?" Because it's not the same thing. Each book is its own time period. And describing all of history as detailed as the series does it would require multiple books. Therefore, since that made the most sense in-universe, that’s what Toby did. Sometimes, internal consistency IS why a developer does something he does-Why can’t we say Toby does the same time, to keep his story consistent? Or should we be expected to believe that all of it could fit, and that Frisk/Chara, along with all the monsters, could read text that small? (Also that the publisher would MAKE the text that small).

"That's what the intro is for. As for the cause, volume 7 talks about that, while addressing a different topic. " What about the fact that it could hardly be called a war? Or that the monsters SURRENDERED to the humans? Also, my point is that this can’t be the start of monster history. This can’t be the start of Volume 1. Logically, a history book explaining the history of monsters would go over the war. "There is no Chara in volumes 6 to 8. I checked. I don't see it. " That's because you only see the footnotes. The ones that explain the problems raised by Chara's story, within that same book. You see, each of these sort of fill in a "plot hole". Monsters have healing magic. So, they should have been able to heal Chara before they died, right? Nope. Monsters aren't experienced with sickness. They couldn't save Chara. Asriel crossed the barrier? But wasn't it established that monsters can't do that? That barrier being why they're trapped? If they could just cross the barrier, they wouldn't be trapped. Well, Asriel absorbed the SOUL of a human. With the human SOUL, his SOUL grew powerful enough for him to leave-The others are trapped because they don't all have human SOULs absorbed.

"How can plot holes be real if the Undertale universe is real?"

At BEST, you're missing two syllables at the end of the last word. At worst, you misinterpreted my argument entirely.

Of course it doesn't exist-We don't see monsters going around, or humans coming to life through pure determination. Not only that, but in Undertale, Mt. Ebott is a popular, grassy mountain. In this world? *looks up Mt. Ebott on Google Maps* There is no such mountain, or, if it is, it's not well-known enough to be on Google Maps, contradicting the lore that legends say those who climb will never return. There's my proof against Undertale being in this world, but we probably shouldn't need to use it, since it's clear it's a video game made by a developer anyway.

"Oh wait, it isn't? You're saying it was made by some 26 year old guy living in Massachusetts?"

Inaccurate. Said guy didn't do it alone. Fans helped shape it, by creating Muffet, Temmie Chang inserted himself into the game, and he likely looked at a lot of reviews of the demo-Demo was the early stages, as Muffet was created as a result of a patron on Kickstarter, which began after the demo.. And she's a full miniboss.

"...oh. So... Undertale is not like the real world then?"

Realistic≠Real. After all, George Washington more than likely did NOT cut down that cherry tree, but if he did, that world would still be like ours-Just with slightly different history.

"Does... does that mean the scientific method does not apply to it?"

Absolutely not. That's a huge leap right there. The scientific method DOES apply to it. It SHOULD apply to ALL worlds, in fact. Some things that are true in our world, even fundamentally so can indeed be disregarded, as we have to accept that magic exists in Undertale, and that SOULs exist, are visible after death (Something that is clearly false in our world-We don't see a visible heart when someone in this world dies) in the world of Undertale, and other things that are proven to be false in this world. However, we do this the same way we discovered things in our own world-The scientific method. The only difference is that things proven in this world are not necessarily proven in those worlds. Otherwise, it's a problem with the story. No story should have an inconsistent world. None. (Unless there's somehow a rule to the inconsistency, to explain it..? As in, the laws of physics change according to something else in the story we know about?)

"You are taking the said evidence too literally, without any regard for the humanity of the creator."

There's a difference between being a human, that makes mistakes and isn't a literal god who gets everything right on the first draft and creates the entire story in six days, and someone who checks for errors in the story, and corrects them, until none remain, a process that can take years. I argue Toby is the latter one, even if he claims to be the former and asks for offering on his shrine in Japan.

"This is not a consistent universe, this is a game about mercy."

Unneccesary assumption meant solely to allow more theories to exist by justifying it. This is why Dream Theories do not work well. While mercy is a common motif.. So is war, really. And treating the world like a game, especially so in the Genocide Route. In essence, Motifs≠Purpose.

Having a consistent story is very important when giving a narrative.

"The plot was never the focus, really. The experience was."

What's to say the two aren't connected? The plot is part of the experience. Us piecing together the story.. Discovering for ourselves that things are not as they seem.. That what we thought was the same human falling down, the intro and the start of the game, was actually two humans. That Flowey's existence and malice has a perfectly rational explanation.

"Idk, the Vedas, for starters? Or think about European literature. How many books detailing the known history were written in Germany, France, England, and other places?"

The Vedas follows the rule as well. Each of the individual "Vedas" retain their own original names-Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samaveda, and Atharvaveda. Not "Vedas 1", "Vedas 2", "Vedas 3", and "Vedas 4". The Rigveda is a lot of verses organized into a 10-book series-Not ten invividual books that were later complied. This better fits my theory on the monster history series. Also, not every historical book is a compliation. I'm looking specifically for compilations. All I’m asking is ONE that doesn’t break the rules! "That's the point, I don't have the equipment. Just like I don't have the knowledge to list every single written compilation that humanity has ever made to you. " You don't need to list every single one. You just need to list one, and I mean ONE that breaks the rule, and is popular enough to appear in either a bookstore or a library. (The latter is required simply because, well, we see Volume 4 in a library. I allowed for bookstores because there's no reason for me to restrict these books to ones that aren't standardized in schools-After all, if it's a rule, it should be followed even more so for standardized books.) Just like I'd just need to spot one black swan to prove they exist. By the way, that’s the reason why it's better to argue something doesn't exist than it does, when there's no evidence of either. And with that, I ask you to DISPROVE that there is a teapot circling around Mars right now. I'll call it Russel's teapot… because that's what its name always was. Look it up. "You could change the rules and argue that what we actually see is just an illusion, as the Earth is OBVIOUSLY flat, meaning that what we've observed must actually have an alternative explanation. Obviously. /s" True, people could do that. However, never once have I argued that an event we see within the game is an illusion-In fact, I've argued against it being just an illusion when you've argued FOR it, case in point:The HUD. Which now has further evidence of being canon since Gerson has knowledge of it too. You wanted someone who wasn't Sans using knowledge of the HUD? Here ya go. That's the same as saying "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist." While you're closer to "As there is no proof it cannot exist, it exists. " Let me present a hypothetical particle that can travel faster than light, and also slower at the same time. A particle not bound by the rules of general relativity. Let me call it "mana" (named after the building block of magic). Now. Prove to me that particle does not exist. And you can't use the fact that we’ve never seen one as evidence. Go on. (I don't actually believe it exists, I just made that particle up to prove a point. But still. And you can't use this quote as evidence. I actually believe it's impossible to debunk, however. But that’s because it’s simply an unfalsifiable claim. Saying it DOESN'T exist is falsifiable though-It can be proven wrong by us actually seeing one.) "You usually include an asterisk for every passage that might be difficult to understand, and put the explanation elsewhere. " How will the reader know where to look? Also… it still must be in the book. So the event that Part 6 explains exists somewhere in Part 6. Not in Part 2, 3, or 5! "There are still holes. For example, where's the passage that teaches you how to read? This book was written by monsters, for monsters. Not for humans. There is no need for it to start from the absolute basics. " Really? That's your argument? That there is no passage that teaches you how to read? Such a passage cannot exist within a book. To read such a passage in the first place requires knowledge of how to read. Want to know a real-world parallel to this series… Except that it's one book instead of many? Check out Stephen Hawking’s "A Brief History of Time. " "But even if, that goes to show that this isn't a teaching book. After all, it's labeled "monster history", not "everything about monsters", so due to its contents, it won't be used in schools. Which is why you can find it in the library. " Why do you keep on missing my real argument? Being educational does not mean it is used in schools! I even gave you a real-world parallel to what I argue this book is:A Brief History of Time! "Alas, if you don't think that this book is standardized, then there's no problem. I just don't see the point of them explaining literally everything. I am not convinced that a book labeled "monster history" could possibly talk about literally everything. It's more probable that the said passages that aren't about history are just footnotes. As I said many times already. " Or, as I suggested, they ARE about history, at least tangentially speaking. They explain what would otherwise be plot holes. "I guess he also wrote the plaques according to you, right? " As you yourself pointed out, different plaques were likely written by different monsters. The only reason why I said he wrote the whole series is because it is a series. Series tend to be written by one author. Scott Cawthon made ALL of the FNAF games. Toby Fox. ALL the stories in MS Paint Adventures (The fourth of which is actually Homestuck) was made by Andrew Hussie. And ALL of the books in this series were made by the same author. "And Gaster did all the technology. " I can debunk that with the robot that Alphys created. "And Asgore did literally every little governing thing, not leaving anything to any other monster, not even the naming of small villages. " With only three villages, and less than 1000 total monsters, this isn't hard of a feat to accomplish. In this world, however, such a thing never happened. By the way, there are still Royal Guards. "And Toriel was everybody's teacher. " Also debunked:She was at the Ruins, and before that, she was performing her duties as the QUEEN. "That's simple according to you? That's madness. Assuming that each thing was done by more than one person is the simpler explanation, as it never works the way I said it in the real life. " Not when it is just one series, and, as I said, less than 1000 total monsters. "You implied that it was. " Well, I didn't state it. Here, let me clarify it a bit more. Gerson PLANNED the series as a continuous series, and not as standalone books. When he released Part 1, he was already planning out Part 2, and probably some of Part 3 as well! That doesn't mean he simultaneously remembered everything he needed to remember to write all of the books-He wrote them parts at a time, and eventually, it all came together… The series is, and always was, about history. "Dude. Choose. Either he did write it all. Or he didn't. " lt's yet another middle ground. He directly wrote all of the books, but some of the material wasn't things he researched for himself. For example, l'm fairly certain that the Part 7 footnote was just copying what the plaques said and just reworded a little bit. Same thing for the Part 8 footnote. "As you can see in this image, even though the ruins are big, they're only about twelve times larger than Toriel's home. So they're not as big. And I'm sure that Home is bigger than this. So overall, the distance from the hole to Home would be smaller than the size of Home itself." "Snowdin has writers in the library. I bet they're being paid for their job. He could be doing something similar there (something that's not just quizzes and the simplistic stuff of course). But he chose not to. " Because he has junk to get rid of! "I'm trying to get RID of my junk, not get more of it! "-Gerson, if you try to sell to him. "As I said, he's a turtle monster. Usually, when Toby pulls one of these, it's pretty obvious, since often, players go like "whoa 4th wall broken!", or something. I see no proof that he did it here. So, now that we are sure that turtles = old, and not the other way around, we ask, does it make sense here? I think it does. Gerson is the only mortal monster that's proven to be over a thousand years old. " (The stuff above it simply rephrased this, so I'm responding to the detailed argument.) How do we know that it isn't simply neither? You see, the reason why I say it is normal is that when there's less than 1000 monsters, his lifespan must be within 3 standard deviations. The oldest a human has survived to be is around 123 years, while the average human lifespan is 70 years. Though, we're talking about monsters, not humans. Monsters expire as they grow old, which makes them Fallen Down, before they eventually die? So, how does a monster age in the first place? Does it actually depend on species, making you right? Well, Gerson helps explain it. "When they have an offspring, the SOUL power of the parents flows into the child... " "Causing the child to grow as the parents age. " So Boss Monsters do not age before they have a child, because they maintain their SOUL power. Losing one's SOUL power is how a monster ages. This means that the lifespan of a monster is directly linked to their SOUL power. So, we should not be looking at species, per say, but rather, the SOUL power of a monster. So unless you can prove Gerson had an exceptionally high amount of SOUL power compared to the rest of the monsterkind, I'm going to say that this is at least close to the standard lifespan. "But again, I would not claim that they can all live for thousands of years. Asgore is that old. He is a boss monster. He doesn't age. " No, he is AT LEAST that old. He could very well be tens of thousands of years. "If this is important for the plot, for example, that it has been a century since Asriel died, then it's not meaningless, and a hundred years is most likely a lot even for a monster. " That is just a response to you asking if Asgore is a goat. It is not a major plot point, just an extra detail about monsters. "I argued that the other souls have shattered in the previous timelines. This was the one where they gave up. If Frisk were to give up, their soul would persist too, as human souls are supposed to. But Gerson's age IS something special, as far as I'm aware. " Except Frisk is not told to stay determined and make that choice until AFTER the SOUL shatters. Their SOUL shatters right after death-At least if a monster kills it with magic. So, if Frisk gave up, it would be too late. Unless of course you think they would "refuse" at that point, meaning that any SOUL can "refuse", but if that is the case, what is preventing it from re-fusing and keeping its power to SAVE and LOAD? "To us, or to the monsters? Because that's an important distinction. " There is no indication that it is to particularly one of them. However, considering how it is in a library, and speaks from the perspective of monsters, the reader is supposed to take the monster point of view. By Occam's Razor, it is probably for the monsters. "We don't know if that's what happened to begin with. And even if it did, the other hole did not have to be there at first, but, as I said, could have formed later on. " Which I discuss below. And we do in fact know that this was an actual diplomatic event, since the monsters SURRENDERED to the humans. The barrier was a response to that. "Implying the monsters couldn't really even fight back. That's how short the war was. Which is why I chose to ignore the intro, since it's obivously lying when it says the battle was long; as IF it was all heroic and whatnot (while in truth, it was a dusty massacre). " "No, it implies that it could hardly be called a war. Because it is literally just one battle. Besides, they had to have fought back somehow. Otherwise, Gerson could not have became the Hammer of Justice. Sure, they did not actually manage to kill and absorb the SOUL of any humans, but they could have injured many humans, enough so that they are incapacitated, forcing them to leave the battlefield. " "So you're in essence assuming a logical fallacy in order to make the story work, because you cannot make it work with all the evidence factored in? Nice going there. Did you know the Earth is flat?" No, I am in essence assuming the monsters USED a logical fallacy in order to make the story work, to explain how there can be a story with no plot holes. So a better version would be: "Did you know people think the Earth is flat? " Which is TRUE, people DO think that. There is even societies all about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies One even has an official website, though said website is probably filled with very bad logic: https://theflatearthsociety.org/ "He immediately regains it after we spare him. No one said they cannot experience the negatives of these emotions. " That does not matter, he did not have hope. He is supposed to be made of hope. By not having hope, he does not have one of the three things he is supposed to be literally MADE OF. Sure, he regains it in the end, but during all that time he did not have it, he should have been DEAD if that theory was correct. "Such fall would have killed any human that falls down. I think the opening is much closer to the surface than how it is portrayed. But you are most likely right. The light could be coming from the barrier there too. " Yeah, my only real point was about that one. As for Chara not dying, well… That is probably going to be its own theory. I already have a potential explanation, but I have not really delved into it much. "Something like that, yes. "

Glad we can agree on that… So, they would see the sphere.. They could then derive from that that the said Barrier is likely still a sphere, and would seal up ANY entrances or exits. Just like the one in New Home… Because they literally SAW the spell be cast, as the sphere fades into the walls.

"They didn't, but there are also no plaques there. The last one lies in the corridor filled with the yellow blinking lights, and that's where we saw Monster Kid, after he took his own route. "

Hm, maybe, just maybe, the reason why there are no plaques there is BECAUSE they did not take that route! Therefore, they would note have even noticed that anything could enter the barrier, and thus, the part about no entrances or exits was not fixed. Then, as you said, anything being able to enter was added by someone who wanted to correct that plaque. "They walked through it. Who said anything about living? "

Even that could be fatal, especially when it comes to monsters like Vulkin. Traveling through the biome to Waterfall takes Frisk well over five minutes. I mean sure, you could have the snow monsters go and explore that area, but that would be about as far as we can get with technology this primitive. After all, what about humans swimming in the icy ocean for five minutes? ...Yeah. That's what I predict would happen to the Hotland monsters. "As you can see in this image, even though the ruins are big, they're only about twelve times larger than Toriel's home. So they're not as big. And I'm sure that Home is bigger than this. So overall, the distance from the hole to Home would be smaller than the size of Home itself."

The first sentence is correct. The second contradicts it-Twelve times bigger is bigger. It's not "not as big"-It's twelve times bigger. This is the argument I was using, in fact. Nice that you found a map to illustrate my point. HOME starts around the bottom-right corner of the image.. (Though actually, shift everything after the perspective rooms all up by the length of the room with six holes-Both layers of said room are actually directly above each other vertically, while the third perspective room directly south of said room. So there's no inconsistency in the actual Ruins layout-Though, I can see why the map shows things they way it does-It doesn't have a third dimension, so it would show two rooms overlapping if it showed it accurately.) Though, I can see your point as well here. We barely traveled north at all, but rather east, and there's quite a large path north between HOME and Snowdin, in the quite large room we meet Flowey in. If you looked strictly at vertical distance, you could even say that HOME is only in the first half of its caverns. (The one closest to the Ruins hole) Not only that, but according to the room that we're both discussing, there should be houses in the gap between that room and the hallway of the castle (which I call to attention here: i.imgur.com/a/C1MTA)

Those would be some pretty small houses.. Though, it could fit in, since Nasptablook's house is around that size as well. I can really see how you believe HOME isn't that far away from the hole, relatively speaking.

But you see, that's all assuming that caverns have to be perfectly straight. However, this is not always the case. Caverns are usually a series of caves, after all, not just one.

By the way, this gap was my argument. Look at the size of the gap again. That's what I argued was the actual distance between the start of HOME and the castle. Pretty small city, but considering how most of the monster population was completely wiped out during the war, it would make sense to build a relatively small city for the few survivors.

"You're assuming that. "

Once again, the giant hole we see in the epilogue. THAT is the visible hole I speak of.

"Bro, the New Home entrance is a door. The ruins entrance is a massive hole. "

They are both massive holes. The door is just a door, like the Ruins/Snowdin border, and the very first door you ever walk through. If Frisk started their journey in New Home, you would be saying the door at the end of the Ruins was the Ruins entrance.

"Do they have the technology to survive in a land of purple rocks? "

Well, the climate is just right, they already have a source of sunlight, and therefore a place to make a garden. Not only that, the rocks are not purple. They are gray. The purple is the floor and wall in the building with the puzzles. And they seem to be completely flat… Because that is just a natural cave. So, a better question to ask, would be if they had the technology to live in caverns, in which the answer would be yes. We've been doing that in the Stone Age.

"'Entrances or exits.' Even if it said entrances only, aren't all holes entrances, really? Oh wait, they didn't know they are. So why did they say "entrances", if every entrance from their point of view would ultimately also have to be an exit? That's right, because they used the two as synonyms. So they were sure there were no open holes anywhere. Meaning, that up to that point, they assumed that every sealed hole that there is is impassable from both directions. This plaque was written before Chara fell, and before the first trash started flowing in. Also, HOW does that not mean holes? What does New Home have to do with this? The hole there is a door. A door is both an entrance, and an exit. "

Yes, they used the two as synonyms. And the reason why New Home has to do with this is because that is supposedly where they fell. They would know for a FACT that there was an entrance there, before it was sealed. Therefore, this passage must specifically be talking about entrances that can actually be used. So, if they thought any hole would work just like how they thought New Home worked, since they saw the Barrier be cast as a sphere before fading into the walls, they would conclude that because of this, there are NO entrances or exits at all-There simply cannot be, as it is all sealed. And we know if it is sealed, it does not count, because otherwise, New Home would count, which would mean the message of no entrances or exits would never have been made.

"Hard to tell the exact hue when it's all a single shade of color. Plus, it could just be the daylight. Although, as I said, you have a point. It shines too brightly even for an opened cave. "

Hence it being the Barrier again. After all, as you pointed out, it cannot just be the sunlight, or, if it is, more of it is coming through and staying through than it should be. This is work of the Barrier, which means that the Ruins hole works the same way as the New Home hole. And this is why it is more plausible than ever before that perhaps the ENTIRE Barrier works this way. (It is either that or the Ruins hole really WAS there all along, and the humans specifically sealed that too, which debunks a different part of your theory.)

"Still, keep in mind that even if they thought that the humans can't pass through it directly, they would still fear them striking back. That's what I got from volume 4, "fearing humans no longer". So, as I said, they feared the humans would lift the barrier and finish them off. "

What I got was that they originally started by fearing the humans would cross the barrier. But, many years later, as nothing fell through, as the human attack they feared was starting not to happen, they figured that perhaps the reason why they have not attacked yet, is because they CAN'T. Hence, they feared the monsters no longer. Of course, this was a very slow, gradual process.

"It is a bold argument, but I only came up with it as an explanation for their fear. "

While I came up with why it went away.

"And fear can lead you to some pretty irrational conclusions. "

So can the fear OF fear. Perhaps that is why they were so quick to say that this meant they were not coming. It is clear that they believe they are made of hope, as the Library book says.

"This is unlike your argument about the plaques, where you said that they came to these conclusions using an idiotic induction. Like, who documents things by "guessing" and not even stating that it's just a guess? "

The people who said there was no such thing as a black swan. The ones who created the four elements of alchemy. Many of the numerologists. I do agree that these conclusions were fallacious-In fact, we all know this, because they ended up being wrong. However, we need to understand that there exist monsters (and humans) who use fallacious reasoning like this. And the one who wrote the plaque that no entrances or exits exist was one of them. And, just how bad ideas still spread like wildfire (alchemy), so did this one, as it brought forth hope. (Plus there are the ancient myths. Pretty sure the creators of those did not admit that they were just made up as explanations for what could not be explained at the time… Though, I truly wonder why they never came up with the idea that the sun was just large and far away, and instead resorted to creating a completely different realm, the realm of Sky, just to explain why we can see the sun without reaching it. Even if they thought the earth was flat, that is still a better explanation… Even if with their belief of a flat Earth that implies within the next million years it will come crashing down into the earth…)

"They feared the humans, period. If the humans didn't know about this hole, it is reasonable to think that they made the puzzles after the trash started flowing in. "

So, what did they do with the 12-building space they just left open before then? Why did they leave that space in the first place, back when they thought there was no Ruins hole?

"But despite these inconsitencies, I still don't think they were sealed from that end. "

Really? I would have swapped over if I found even one inconsistency, that could not be explained without contradicting evidence.

"After all, they would have settled in New Home if that was the case. "

Once again, there was the problem of Snowdin and Hotland. Plus the giant New Home hole.

"They would find a safe and easy place to climb the cliff and eventually reach the destination (then they would probably demolish the route). "

With Middle Ages technology, all without the Snowdrakes and Icecaps melting to death?

"Or stay in Waterfall, if the former wasn't feasible. " Snowdin is a problem of its own. By the way, this right there explains why Home was at the Ruins/Snowdin border. That is as far as they could get. It is the end of the caverns.

".Plus, they walked far into the earth. As I said, walking a 12 house distance and then founding your city isn't "far"."

It is not 12 regular houses. It is twelve royal castles-That is what Toriel's house IS.

"That's the question. "

Yes. A question with YOUR theory. Therefore, you have to be the one to explain it. I already have one, but that only works for the theory that they were in the Ruins-Simply being, the door was not in New Home, because they never GOT to New Home. It places all the puzzles and guards BEFORE the king, a tactical decision for the monsters. Yours puts the king undefended, unless you say the door is somehow the guard. Which, of course, would make the entire journey useless. I argue the door would not be very reliable-After all, the monsters did not place one at the start of the Ruins, to fully prevent a human attack. So, that is what the puzzles and many places for guards are for. And the capital is at the very back, because it is the CAPITAL. Getting your capital captured is a pretty big deal, as your capital is pretty much your government. It is the most vital city there is. It needs to be protected.

"...? Chara would tell him their name, obviously. "

I was somewhat siding with you, debunking one of my previous ideas, that the monsters might think Asgore just made up the name of the human. But it is clear that the monsters know he could not do that. He is just too terrible at making good names.

"One good human falling down is still better than no humans falling at all. "

It does not justify saying that all humans are good and there is no reason to fear a human attack, however. Hence that part where I asked how Chara could convince the other humans. I wonder how many would just take Chara's word for it and not try and see if that mystery plan would actually work. (Of course, their plan would be to kill six humans and break the barrier. Not very good of a plan on monsters living peacefully. Well, not unless what they were looking for was eradication of humanity. Which is probably what Chara actually WAS looking for, considering their hatred for the race.) "Interesting observation. I've never realized that the door that we stand in front of when we fight Toriel is not the same one as the one that we end up next to in the next area. But again, there's no vertical hole near New Home. I mean, how do you think everyone got out so easily to watch the sunrise? "

Scaffolds. :3 Ironic that our roles are reversed now, isn't it? (Compared to the Hotland cliff)

"What would be the point though? To wake Frisk up with loud noises? It is also there after our fight with Omega Flowey, but that's definitely a plot hole. In any case, I do not think that Asgore would call some construction workers, send them there and tell them to make a fancy door, with pillars and an engraved emblem and everything, for no reason whatsoever. Besides, this was no time for building. The barrier just broke, the human is unconscious, why would the king out of all things order to build a door frame there? "

The door was there before the Barrier broke? Well then, there is only one explanation. The door is actually still on the monster side of the Barrier. Sure, we are told that if we go through the door, the adventure will truly be over on Pacifist, but that is because directly behind that door is where the Barrier used to be. Behind that door is the way out. It signifies the end. After all, we can still go through that door in Neutral.

"We only told Asriel our name, and whether we forgive him or not. We didn't tell him about himself, so no one knew that it was him who did this. "

Asriel told US about himself. He knows about himself, and Asgore would surely recognize his son. We only told Asriel our name, so if anybody else knows our name, Asriel must have told them. Which means they met Asriel in person. And this is before Asriel turns into Flowey, as if we go back to the very first room, Asriel is still there.

"You should though. Think about it. Sans implies it was a century between us and Chara. He didn't say "at least a hundred years". He said precisely "a hundred". Remember how good his estimates are. He gets the amount of times we've lost to him correctly every single time (and no, it's not because he knows; he doesn't remember the timelines). So the chance of him underestimating nearly two millenia by over 1650 years (2000-250-100) is, from a meta point of view, non-existant, I'd say. "

That hundred was actually because of the sixth/seventh human. So actually, the true value was only around 250 years, not 2000. Not only that, but that is assuming it was two millenia. The Middle Ages is still a good estimate, and if we say the game happens during the present, or near the present, we instead get anywhere between 1200 (2000-800) and 900 (2000-1100) years in the past being when the war happened. (250 was my high estimate-There can be slight variation in when humans fall, after all.) Divide that by 8, and we get a number between 150 and 112. Not that far off anymore, is it?

"But even if you believe that this was a hyperbole, you still cannot put probability above logic. Assuming your theory, it would imply that the monsters reached the information age within 250 years, which is also assuming that their technology was the same as the technology of the humans at the beginning. "

Have them ditch alchemy near the start of those 250 years. Have an early Scientific Revolution this way. That already boosts them to the 1600s. From that, it should be much more feasible. Help build a laboratory where scientific research can be done. Start making a science team, focused on science. As the Underground does not have a popular star like Mettaton, less potential scientists would end up choosing something like being an entertainer. Next, start testing for the forces of the universe. Try to measure how gravity and motion works. (Galieo's measurement of gravity-Early 1600's, or maybe late 1500's. Newton's laws-1686.) They are fundamental things about the universe, so measuring them has clear importance! Next, we need to explain heat. How do we do this scientifically? Well, we use the newly popularized scientific method, of course! We look at the properties of heat first, like how a cooler object will get heat from a warmer one, and how friction creates heat. The latter is what could lead to concluding that the energy of momentum was converted into heat, thus confirming that heat is energy, and thus, could be a viable power source. (Actually using the source would take a bit longer, though.) Now, we have ditched alchemy, we need a new method of determining what particles are elements. We can prove the law of conservation of mass pretty easily-We just need to measure the matter before and after a reaction, and they will measure the same. We can also derive Gay-Lussac's law, which states that gasses with the same pressures react to each other in volumes of small whole numbers. From this, we can derive that elements exist, but that still doesn't answer the question on WHAT the elements are. So, we try out some reactions, noting what reacts into what. If one substance can react to split into two different substances, the former is not an element. Neither can an element be created by combining two substances. This did result in some non-elements being considered elements at first, though, like lime and baryte. But, why just theorize on what COULD be, when we can find out what is? After we derived that elements react in small whole rations, we came to the conclusion that elements are not simply infinitely divisible. There is also the law of definite proportions to take. So, since they are not infinitely divisble, that means there must be indivisible particles that they are made of. Let's call them atoms.

Now, a power plant using heat energy does not need to be too complex:Water heats up, evaporates, and the steam rises, spinning a steam turbine. Then it is condensed and brought back to where it began, to heat up again, and repeat the cycle. That's the first version of the CORE for you.

You see? Science doesn't take centuries of work, it takes someone who is a genius, someone who can make massive discoveries. And experimenation. Back then, us humans didn't have a science team. The monsters did. Gaster lead it.

"Now factor in the fact that they've just lost their homes and have to rebuild their society, while fearing eradication, and you'll soon see that it is impossible for them to advance so much in so little time."

Their society wasn't that hard to rebuild. It's a simple diarchy. That's it. And they only had to build one city. Pretty sure it doesn't even take 50 years for that. We still have around 200 years left.

"If I see some amazing video and I ask myself, "is this real?", do I mean the video, or the contents of the said video? I'm pretty sure the latter is the case."

You're probably wondering whever that was real footage, or if someone just animated or photoshopped it, making it up. Which people actually do. "Did that thing ACTUALLY happen?"

Undyne would also believe the events of the anime actually happened. But what about the anime itself? How was it created? Well, these are real events, right? RIGHT?! There's just no way they animated everything! No! They witnessed the events, and recorded them! NNGGAAAH!!!!!! (Of course, anime is not real.)

"If you can sufficiently prove that she is insane without using circular logic, then I shall believe that she was being literal here. But we both already know that that's impossible."

Just you wait and see, because I plan to do just that in the sections below this.

"What are the odds of them getting cleaned up though? :)"

Cleaned up to where? And why are there no cracks on the ground, or the hole in the intro? There's pointy rocks on the surface, yes, and even the ceiling is pointy, but there are no actual cracks.. I wonder why? :)

"How do you know?"

It is the only way to explain why the Barrier is white, rather than simply whatever color that is outside.

"It's magic, anything is possible. Perhaps it only disallows massive particles to leave. You know, the subluminal ones."

This is a possible reason why the monsters still believed no entrances can exist, even as they see that light can enter.

"Spells that don't harm you. Spells that do."

That's not weird. That's just different spells doing different things. And, as we found out on this actual poll, spells can only harm your SOUL, and that is only doable in a FIGHT.

"A magical glass tile that Toby added in when a character runs off the path? Could we count this as being canon? Yeah, sure we could. So transparent impassable magic can exist. Why can't the hole in the ruins be made out of this stuff? Although, as I said, due to the lighting, I think this is isn't the case. "

I argue that this can't be the case due to the lightning as well. If you looked closely, you would see that that was also my argument this WHOLE TIME. But yes, that kind of magic can exist. Which would explain why monsters could have hypothesized that the Barrier was one of those.

"It's still magic. Magic is based on rules, as far as we know. And what is the rule here? Is it "light can pass from this side", or "anything can pass from this side"? The monsters didn't know that, and you can't really explain magic using our science, since magic is not physical."

The rule is anything can pass through to enter, but they theorized that the rule was simply that light can pass through either side, as it was simpler and more intuitive. It was Occam's Razor. Which was wrong. (The simplest solution isn't ALWAYS the correct one..)

And what, magic can't be derived from science? Well, look at that, another reason why monsters that would make good scientists and helped progress technology far faster than humans did still got the Barrier wrong. It's magic, not science.

"Leaves rot, you know."

Oh, that's right, bacteria exist underground as well. (I ended up grouping them with the animals for some reason, saying they were only on the Surface...)

"What if the reason they made these was because they feared the humans, but still believed in them, or were still good at heart? I mean, block it off completely and anyone who falls will starve to death."

So.. what was their plan for when the humans inevitably made it past the puzzles? And whatever it was, why couldn't they just START with that?

"The angel is coming."

So ONE prediction out of FOUR were true, and the one correct prediction was previously stated in the Delta Rune prophecy. (Failed predictions-"Beware the man who speaks in hands", "Beware the man who comes from the other world". "The water is wild today. That's [bad/good] luck" [It's one or the other, or none. So at least one of these have to be wrong].)

...Yeah, River Person is no future-seer. Though they are quite knolwedgebale about the present, including things like Temmie Village, Lesser Dog, and even the fact that you CAN have too many hot dogs. (thirty's the limit.) But still. No future predictions other than the prophecy, which was already known, and three failed predictions.

"That's what Glitchtale did. Don't do Glitchtale, it's bad for you."

No, Glitchtale made it so that you can lose your triat, and losing your trait means you lose your SOUL magic. SOUL magic is not the same thing as a trait. It's the thing that we each separately theorized is used to cast spells, remember? We used it to explain how spells can be cast without directly reducing your SOUL power, which you say is also determination? With "DT magic" explaining how a SOUL can persist forever, instead of steadily losing DT until it turns into dust?

"Alphys has the said anime on DVDs or whatever. It's not like a non-stop live feed. Besides, how would you explain music and special instrumentation sound effects this way?"

DVD's. Like footage. Know about the Zapruder film? Yeah. Stuff like that. And actually, there do exist monsters who think that music naturally happens. River Person actually happens to be one of them, by the way:"Tra la la. Did you ever hear the old song coming from the sea?" So, maybe Undyne thought it was something like that.

"We ran away to a place where she couldn't follow us. That's what made us win. And you can say that we've only gotten a chance to escape, since this green soul magic that's preventing us from escaping is hard to sustain for long periods of time."

Actually, Undyne CHOOSES when to turn us back to red, by swiping her spear. So... yeah.

"She was angry with us. Maybe she is eager into things she likes, but then again, it's not like the piano was smashed to pieces when we entered. Yeah, she was definitely doing this because she despised us from the heart, because we put her at shame."

...You do know she does that even if we say we AREN'T here to humiliate her, right? This stems from Undyne telling us to envision the food as our enemy. In fact, after she burns the house, she goes "No wonder Papyrus sucks at cooking." It's because Undyne sucks at cooking, because of her agressiveness towards food.

"Oh. So now, Alphys is delusional too according to you? Give me a break."

Actually, no. She knows it isn't real. We later find out that Alphys was lying to Undyne about anime. She likely labeled it as "Human History" to keep that facade.

"Which is what I said. That language is set, since otherwise, "apple" could mean "orange", or whatever."

You were using it as an argument that we HAVE to just assume something about Toby to prove this. We DON'T. We can prove it empirically. I just did.

"Well, how exactly was she supposed to tell whether the anime is based on real events or not? It's not like she could walk out and actually check for herself."

Because they actually violate science that they already know to be true. Give me an anime, and I'll point out scientific flaws in it.

"Not to them. The monsters have their reasons, because they have their own culture, their own way of living and taking care of themselves. They're totally different."

There's a difference between thinking 13 is actually a lucky number, having different kinds of cultural rules.. And literally thinking that anime is real, and NOT doing the action that you know will save everyone. (Undyne hates humans as well, so.. another reason not to let you win.)

"I think Toriel comes very close."

Hm, let's see. Snail pie? Is that your evidence? Because this is a case of monsters just being different. (Though, I think you probably have better evidence than THAT. That's simply the closest thing to evidence that I've spotted so far.)

"What about Asgore? The one who literally held back? As proven by a mountain of evidence that you simply chose to ignore?"

At least Asgore knows we AREN'T the enemy to everyone's hopes and dreams. He had a REASON to hold back against us. The reason why I mentioned being the enemy of hopes and dreams with Undyne is because that's literally what she calls us.