Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180912170600

>There are viruses intelligent enough to be able to trick our cells to doing their dirty work. Proof they WE'RE in a virtual reality?

No, because you gave an unequal example.

>As I've kept saying, if that were the case, then there would be hints, clues, and implications of it. But there isn't!

That doesn't mean it cannot work as a possible explanation. Once again, I have to repeat myself. Toby didn't think of all this, we expanded the rules he originally had in mind and made something greater. No doubt our theories are plausible. But are they realistic though, are they something that Toby had in mind? ... Why does it matter, nobody cares nowdays.

Toby made everything canon, yes. But he forgot to cement that using in-game evidence. What I mean specifically, is that he forgot to show, that the universe isn't a simulation. In fact, in many ways, it looks more like it is, rather than the opposite. If turns and buttons and whatnot are all real, then this is the more plausible explanation than some very weird and nonsensical "universe," simply because the idea of such a universe is more complicated than a simulation, and that is mainly because we know how such a simulation can perhaps work. But a universe which employs buttons and turns and menus and stats? First time I'm hearing about it.

And to be honest, even if Toby Fox right now proclaimed that you're right, I'd still be reclusive. I'd need the concrete rules of physics for such a universe to start believing that such a thing is possible to begin with. I mean, magic is one thing, I have nothing against that. I don't think LOTR or Game of Thrones are simulated either. But at least everything else is realistic.

You're telling me the UT universe has an arbitrary condition, which switches it from a realistic setting to pretty much a total nonsense, and that it's not a hallucination, nor a screen-to-player translation, and that everything actually happens the way it does. You managed to break the general relativity, quantum physics, thermodynamics and even causality itself with this. Just how much do you expect me to "imagine" when it comes to the rules of this "universe" ?

I'm sorry, I cannot. It's unimaginable. Laws being broken like that, that's a simulation.

And next time I won't be repeating myself anymore.

>Weren't YOU the one constantly preaching this earlier?

Do you wanna know what I'm truly preaching?

Common sense. On one end, you've got no HUD. You hate that. On the other, you have nothing but the HUD and the code. You also hate that, apparently. In between, you have a cherrypicked mix of both, and you find it very tasty.

You find the creator's word more logical than logic itself, and yet here you stand, on a discussion forum. Apparently, you wanna argue with logic, hence why you're here, and yet, you base everything on the assumption that logic isn't present in this game to begin with (let's call it that, I know you aren't really aware of this flaw of yours yet).

I have asked this question THA before. Isn't what we're doing here pointless, if what you're claiming is true?

>He said that the mechanics are canon to the world, not that literally everything (like the black and white world and invisible barriers that AREN'T the Barrier) on screen is canon.

That's cherrypicking.

>The information IN the intro is canon, but the intro itself is not.

What exactly makes you think that? Give me your exact thought process.

>If it has evidemce to back it up, then I'm fine with it. But the only evidence you've shown so far HERE in this thread is those two plaques, which THA and I have disproved multiple times over now.

Neither of you have disproved anything, you used dumb wordplay to give it to me. Also, earlier, I showed a correlation between DT and soul power.

>If it's implied then that means that there's an explanation to it that fits canon and what's shown to us. That's the explanation I want, not new concepts that aren't hinted at, implied, or stated to be a thing in the world. The only way that would work is if Toby said that it was a thing.

Too bad that's what we do most of the time. And Toby never says anything. Pretty lame from you to say that.

>If it didn't run on logic, then it wouldn't be presented in a way perceivable to us.

Well then, you must be a genius, because I just can't see what you find so logical about the HUD being compatible with the overworld.

>Where in the game are these barriers mentioned? Show me that and i will buy it.

Why are you still seeking confirmation, when the evidence is the same? I am generalizing here and forming a theory. If you want the confirmed truth and nothing but that, immediately stop thinking that red souls are DT, that Flowey is Asriel, that we know anything more about Gaster besides that he was the previous royal scientist and is now missing, because all of these are unconfirmed theories. Toby hasn't answered any of these directly, not even that Flowey is Asriel. Not even once. But we figured it out thanks to the hints he planted into the game, and much, much more.

And now that we've got hints for something new once again, you are refusing. Based on what exactly are you making the decision to not accept the theory in this case? Since I don't know any better, I'm gonna say it's because of your head canons. Or do you care to enlighten me?

>It's still a flaw in the theory.

Well then, you will have to refresh my memory. I must have stashed it away along with the rest of your bs.

>I'm more along the line of saying Flowey had multiple SOULS in one being, rather than one made up of many

Oh, is that what you think I'm claiming? Well then, that changes everything. No, I don't think he has just ONE soul. That's simply how I referred to his newfound abilities. By "composite soul", I rather meant a composite powersource, made out of many individual souls. This is what in turn partially messed up the SLR ability, kicking the R out under standard conditions, and requiring the previous host's soul to be destroyed first.

I have conjectured all of this solely by observing the game.

>Considering that OF didn't need to do that, and Flowey clearly says that the transfer of power from him to Frisk was because of Frisk having more DT than Flowey, it just doesn'tmake any sense with the rules already established.

Those rules were established with a soulless Flowey in the equation. Now that Flowey has many souls, everything becomes questionable. Clearly, he can save and reload, but he hasn't demonstrated whether he can reset. And as Asriel, he said he can't, at least not right away. So what if?

>Asriel still can't use it because while he trumps Frisk in terms of SOUL Power, he doesn't in terms of DT.

That's your hypothesis, not a confirmed fact. And if we tweak the other assumptions, we find that this hypothesis stands on "incorrect" assumptions. Once again, what made you think that this is the case? You certainly have no proof for it, so the best you can is find supportive evidence. And I found quite the contrary, to which you used semantics to argue against, which means you can no longer find any logical arguments to disprove me.

By Occam's razor, I am proclaiming that my theory is simpler, because it unifies DT and soul power into one (by which I mean, it causes no logistical errors), and is therefore more favorable towards anything, except maybe for the creator, who still used two different terms for this power, so once again, the "correctness" is debatable. But still, what exactly is our goal here, to find what Toby had in mind, or to use logic to figure out the rules of the UT world?

>I'd say they'd be more side effects of his being scattered - and being pieces of Gaster himself - rather then his experiments, following this line of thought at least. Also it was him falling into his creation that caused his scattering. And even then, the only thing made out of that would be S/L/R since it deals directly with Space-Time; whereas everything else deals with magic and the SOUL. Plus, magic was around BEFORE the Monsters were put into the Underground - and thus Gaster's scattering - so the only real viable question here is what magic is in context to everything else in nature. Since it's clearly a natural force.

It's noteworthy that I absolutely agree with you here on everything.

>There's no exact number given for the monsters.

Well, yeah. Me thinks monsters have a "standard value" when it comes to their DT. Most of the time, that's what their soul power would amount to. And only very few can fluctuate enough to create a significant deviation from this standard. Humans on the other hand don't NEED to fluctuate, so they can be measured more reliably.

>I just go with either the 1st red flag explanation, or the usual "SOUL Trait = Most abundant/dominant trait" explanation.

Funny, how the 6 traits are just words. They don't actually give you anything physically, only mentally. And even then, they aren't all that special. The only noteworthy thing about them is that they're all positive, and that sometimes, their meanings may overlap. Not a very scientifically accurate system, is it? So how can we be possibly claiming that these 6 can cover all possible aspects of a human personality, when we have no evidence for it?

Two explanations: either the humans in UT are simply just that dull in terms of psychology, or we simply misunderstood the mechanism. Still, even if we tweak everything to solve these problems, the one about the meaning of the traits will persist. Just why exactly is it these 6? What's so special about patience, bravery, et cetera.

If this is currently anyone's belief, then just a side note, they can thank me for figuring out how can these align with something that relates to us, irl humans, and that is, the chakras.

But I'm side tracking. That was just a piece of luck. If you'd rather believe that humans are simply that dull, then there comes Glitchtale, where this concept is explored rather extensively. The traits are pivotal there. In contrast, my interpretation only presents them as a special case of a special case, because I don't want to change the UT humans into something that wouldn't be like us, something that wouldn't think and function the same way we do.

Just an insight into my thoughts and opinions.

>The problem with this paragraph is that it doesn't take into account the one rule of S/L/R: that one needs to be the MOST DETERMINED BEING in order to use it. Logically speaking, even if S/L/R was available to the Surface and you had a room full of people with red SOULS, only one would get the ability, simply because they're more determined than the rest of the Red SOUL Humans.

Sure, I agree with that. What's the catch again?

>Except evidence clearly shows that it can.

That evidence can be explained differently. No need to indroduce new concepts into the play, when an explanation already exists.

>But the problem is that they clearly failed; meaning they either had a limited number of uses - due to their traits - or just never knew they had it to begin with.

No one ever said anything about there being a limit. I just like to say that they failed because of Asgore. Since the game already proves that they had those abilities. Or if it takes your fancy, you can say that Gaster managed to do something to them before they could reset and stripped them of their power. Now that would be an interesting concept in the game, an area which you can evade from easily, but if you don't, you will lose your abilities, as the game will autosave your progress non-stop during that time, rendering it uncheatable.

>And before you say that they let their SOULS be taken, the only ones that would be most likely to do that - given what poultry amounts we know about these kids - is the boy/girl that had the Kindness SOUL and MAYBE the Justice SOUL.

Frustration is also important. Haha, crazy thought, Asgore teaching Sans how to become an unbeatable piece of shit. Neat head canon even.

>So CAN DT fluctuate, or CAN'T it?

Physically? No. That stays put. The tricky part is utilizing it however. I have long speculated that the essence is the bridge between the physical and magical within a human body. So maybe, it all comes down to your ability to feed your essence the DT, which depends on how much mentally determined you are to do so.

>And yes, they clearly DO destroy the world.

Then you must admit that your rule of "being able to hurt monsters solely through the HUD" is nonsense.

>If you mix a part of the soul with another part of the soul, you still get a part of the soul!

If by "the same kind of thing" you mean a soul component, then I agree. Both the trait and DT are located inside the soul.

>No, they're not. Also, disregarding canon again I see.

They are plainly stated, meaning that if not contested, they are an automatic truth. Else Toby wouldn't put it there. And Alphys doesn't know everything. She may be referring to soul power and DT in different contexts, but that's not a confirmation. You cannot possibly count this as a proof.

>Your explanation has been nothing BUT horrendous assumptions!

And yours was even worse! Ha.

>The equation you're asking about is based on what I said about SP: it being the power of the SOUL as a whole.

So now you're claiming that while all souls have DT, only red souls have even more DT, because that balance of traits counts as some sort of a secondary DT pool. Bravo, way to make your theory even more convoluted.

>I'm sorry what? Toriel outright said they Monsters would fight and kill you to get your SOUL. What point are you trying to make here?

Oh, she did now?

>Except S/L/R is structured in a way that prohibites that kind of separation. It's either you have all or none, and both the Omega Flowey and Asriel fights show this. You can still Load, Save, AND reset even after Asriel becomes the God of Hyperdeath; you can't do any of that after he becomes Omega Flowey.

Lol, what makes you so damn sure a separation isn't possible?

Also, the reason we could reset during Asriel's battle is because he didn't save. When we try to quit the game during Omega Flowey's battle, we fail, because he overwrote our save file, and he also personally comments on this. So as OF, he was not only able to take our reset power away, but also KNEW about it.

But suddenly, as Asriel, he neither does it, nor appears to be aware of it (as in, if you do it, he doesn't comment on it the next time you see him). Explain this. He had even more power than OF, yet, he got some sort of an amnesia all of sudden. Honestly, I see no other logical explanation other than this being a plot hole. It's just so obvious.

So, let's just say you cannot leave that battle, as was intended. Suddenly, we can say that Asriel saved, as demonstrated by our inability to reload by dying, yet he cannot reset, because we still hold that power. And Omega Flowey doesn't disprove this, since he never demonstrated that he can reset. We held the reset ability in both cases, though in neither of them could we actually utilize it, since our save files were saved over.

This is my working theory.

Now, if you wish to factor in the fact that we could load by quitting, we must make that a thing. We must make "leaving the game" canon. Which also means we must give Asriel the said amnesia.

So now I'm asking you, show me how quitting Undertale is canon and what made Asriel lose his memories, or accept my theory which disregards quitting by saving during the final battle as a thing we can do.

>Evidence? THA and I have shown you multiple times proof of the contrary.

They've got way more DT than necessary, are used as a metric, and all instances of a fluctuation have an alternative and equally valid explanatation that doesn't involve it.

>So WAS Undyne's levels near human or not, your contradicting yourself.

It wasn't.

>If the evidence does not insinuate that possibility, nor is there evidence for it, then it's not a case.

Yeah. Good thing that's not the case and I actually have evidence.

>Except they clearly can

Except read everything I have said on this topic so far, you ignoramus.

>All you've shown is two plaques, that describe DT, that have been proven time and time again to have nothing to do with SOUL Power.

Proven... yeah, that's one hell of a twisted way of putting it. You just ingored them, that's all. Plus, there's the aforementioned correlation between DT and soul power, which is how this theory was formed in the first place.

>Evidence, please.

It's not said that red is DT, but rather the sum of all the other traits, as well as "being yourself". All the other kids could save and load, so we aren't special in this regard. And neither did our superior DT allow us to refuse, since all humans have more or less the same amount of DT in them, since they're being used as a metric, meaning we aren't special in this regard either. Since Chara has no DT on their own, whatever they did at the end of the genocide route came from us, meaning every human is capable of doing that, meaning the entire world should have burned already, meaning nor humans, nor us or Chara are actually capable of doing that and Chara simply locked us out of the world.

So there's nothing special about us. Ergo, there's no reason for red to be specifically DT.