Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20180104155430/@comment-28974149-20181006073723

TheHumanAmbassador wrote: "I guess the difference is that the "antagonist" characters in Undertale aren't 1 dimensional and have complex morality greying reasons beyond "cuz evil that's why! mwa ha ha" Kind of like real life."

Of course, perhaps the same is the case in those games as well, and we don't know it. Link, you can stop killing all of those innocent pigs now.

""Asgore wants to destroy all humanity" suddenly becomes understandable when you add the details "to save Monsters from Humanity's cruelty." and all the history and context behind it."

I'm with Asgore pre-Chara:It'll only lead to another war.

"And of course that the message of Undertale is that it's wrong to kill under any circumstances, that one should find another way."

Not necessarily. What did Asriel tell us at the end? Not everything can be solved by just being nice.

"As we see, most of the monsters are just normal people who have been taught all their lives that their lives suck and they've never felt the sun and everything's all crowded because of *humans* and they're doing their part to save everyone. Many of the monsters fight you specifically to achieve their dreams or in the hopes their lives will get better."

Oh, monster propaganda, eh? Wonder who's been spreading it?

"Others fight to be recognized as GREAT heroes.

But once you assure them to them that humans are all right they lose the will to fight."

The Pacifist Route in of itself is peaceful, I'll give you that. It's the events that happen afterward where things go awry.

"A better example of the classic henchperson is Undyne she's 100% commited to the cause and 100% sure YOU. ARE. THE VILLAIN."

Of course she is. Even though THEY attacked ME first. And in Genocide, she even thinks I'm going to destroy humanity as well! Undyne, I think you got the wrong person. Chara hates humans, I (in my Genocide Frisk persona) hate MONSTERS!

"She's a member of what is the Underground's military, (fortunately they stayed stuck in the midevil era. Imagine Frisk fighting an armed monster! But then again innate magic attacks are superior to weapons in a way, so why would they need to advance? ) in a role analogous to Top General."

The Royal Guard IS armed! Metal plates and all!

"She is the "Big Bad"'s right hand woman! The Kammy Koopa! She is the drill sergent, the one who -yells at- trains all the other Royal Guards.

Her true theme "NGAHHH!" has revolutionary war drums, her encounter (once she stops all that "calm" shtick) is in a sense a declaration of war!"

You want war? I'll GIVE you war, Undyne! NGAAH!!!

"Her battle theme is "Spear of *Justice* "! She's 100% convinced she's the hero of this story and nothing can change that, she enlisted to protect everything and everyone she loves, she is unsparable under normal circumstances."

Kind of like us in Genocide, don't you think? Just replace every time she says "human" with "monster" and vice-versa. And rather than being trapped underground, we were brutally attacked by monsters. Frankly, the war had a reason, it was to stop monsters from absorbing human SOULs and destroying humanity.

"STILL! We find a way! Leading her out of her natural environment she falls to the heat, and unless you are heartless, you'll pour some cool water on her face, she gets up, stares for a moment, and decides to leave us alone. Even when we're feet away from her love interest's lab."

..That or if I think the idea of healing the enemy and letting her continue to chase after me is bad strategy, because until I DO pour water, I have no idea she'll just leave. Remember, you're supposed to play the game blind.

"And soon, with help from another Monster friend's invitation and clever use of reverse psycology(as well as her own moral principles on how to treat house guests such as not gutting them like...a fish... spear fishing for humans...Toby you sly...dog..), and some bonding time, she takes a shine to us and sees we're not that bad after all."

Of course we're not!

"Even when she assumes this won't work out and tries to have a final stand with us she sees we cannot hurt her and finds, she cannot hurt us either..."

So it worked! We found a way!

"Thee is always another, diplomatic way, to put aside our differences and touch base with our.. well not humanity but...sapientness?"

Okay, give me the solution to the problem of a single rogue monster absorbing a human SOUL, and using that immense power to gather more SOULs, and eventually destroy all of mankind! My solution is the Barrier.

"What's different about killing them is you are only causing more pain in the end. And well, genocide is just.. purposely finding Monsters and killing them until there's nothing left. It's not even self defense."

Unless I'm vanquishing the darkness, to defend the humans that would fall after me! :3 (You'll have to do more than that to shatter the hero RPG mentality.. We grind for enemies in ANY game!) Besides, I need to do that to grind for the final boss!!

"No, they were not, didn't you agree with this? Chara was not always like this."

Not Chara, this "RPG demon" you were talking about. Clearly Chara wasn't an RPG archetype in their early life. But they WERE like this since the beginning of the game. My Chara has no relation to RPGs at all, yours does. And an RPG-like character WOULD have to have ALWAYS been a demon, or never be one at all.

"Of course it does, especially plot wise. Due to their lack of soul after dying and being revived by our DT field, there's no moral compass to stop the kid from thinkin' "hey this killin' thing's kinda fun! Slash! Hack! Bish!" Just like with Flowey."

Flowey tried to be good at first. You CAN have a moral compass. What corrupted Flowey was abuse of the SAVE ability. He's actually more like the PLAYER than Chara. There wasn't some guiding force corrupting Flowey at all. Yet, you argue that Frisk, a HUMAN, which Chara DISTRUSTS, can corrupt Chara from a good human into becoming a genocidal maniac in less than a day?

"And it doesn't help that they're a kid and easily influenced. And of course, again, you essentially teach them Asriel was wrong for choosing Mercy even when under attack back when they were trying to save everyone."

Chara's belief was ALREADY that Asriel was wrong. Chara tried to kill the humans, Asriel resisted. In my take, this betrayal lead to Chara hating monsters too, fueling their desire for monster genocide. Alas, this is no reason to go out looking for monsters to kill, or to go killing humans too, now that Chara suddenly likes humans because reasons! (Deus Ex Machina)

..Yeah, you might be getting an idea as to why I consider the take of this Corruption to be absolutely ridiculous.

"There’s an interesting clue to the narrator and their state of mind when you check the bag of dog food in the lab.

You see, unlike the dummy and tree, it’s affected by kill count, not LOVE.

If you kill no one… https://66.media.tumblr.com/9a4abb7da4db10449004a722fcab610e/tumblr_inline_o3knzytZ7k1th1axb_540.png

Pacifist route text. You haven’t killed anyone at this point; the narrator is optimistic (”glass-full”). They’re having a good time on this path. They’re hopeful."

Dog food! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!

.You can't use dog food. Therefore, calling it half-full denotes nothing. Monsters perhaps can use it, and if this is the case, it might in fact be the reverse, seeing that monsters having less food supply means they're closer to dying out.

"But if you kill Doggo, and your kill count is 21+…. https://66.media.tumblr.com/37b57282f8c9b4f46c0548fd32ff59ab/tumblr_inline_o3ko5jCMS21th1axb_540.png

The dog bag becomes funny. This is directly affected by killing Doggo and killing more than 20 people. The narrator doesn’t find his death funny before 20 kills. Something has changed in them."

Actually, since it's "you remembered something funny", I don't believe this is the narrator thinking it's funny, but rather Frisk themselves. WE think it's funny, because WE killed them. The Mad Dummy has different flavor text on HOW you punch the dummy, depending on your LV. So no, the narrator did not change:Frisk did.

"In addition to that, Chara becomes unrecognizable to Asgore in the Bippity Boppity Bad Path. Whereas before he was reminded of Chara when he saw Frisk…"

Because Chara was good in life. Not AFTER their death. They're a fallen angel, not an eternal demon.

"Because in this run, Chara has changed. They were so unlike this during their lifetime that Asgore no longer even recognizes the murderous creature before him as human, much less resembling his child."

No, Frisk has changed. Frisk reminds Asgore of Chara, because they acted similarly to Chara did in life. If Frisk acts completely different, Asgore will not recognize them as such, and as in LV20, Chara has near full control, their demonic form starting to come out, Frisk isn't recognized as a human.

"Basically, you turned them into another Flowey (except one who’s in Frisk’s head) who really does laugh at misfortune, even though it isn’t Flowey’s true nature, and it’s not Chara’s, either, or they’d always find the bag funny if all the dogs were dead."

As I said, it's FRISK who finds it funny now that the dogs are dead:Not Chara.

"The Chara who’s doing the Dusty Dance here is about as much like the “original” Chara as the Flowey we meet is like Asriel. Flowey took a long time to get there on his own; he didn’t have a “guide”."

Yes, Chara has changed. But this is because of Asriel's betrayal, not because of anything Frisk did.

Although when Frisk comes along…

https://66.media.tumblr.com/284c72130946e06721a7b722aab76e85/tumblr_inline_o3kocwSa9p1th1axb_540.png

Even soulless people can learn. https://66.media.tumblr.com/4a0f155871241de9d7268adb6513a32a/tumblr_inline_o3kodsET4e1th1axb_540.png

…one direction or another.

In the first quote, Flowey wondered that on his own. This happens after you defeat Omega Flowey, even on a No Mercy route (not to be confused with a Genocide Route-In a No Mercy Route, you just don't spare or run away from anyone-You don't actively grind for monsters until the area is cleared). The second happens if you still kill someone afterwards, and was likely a sarcastic remark, since there was no real change in perspective, he thought it was kill or be killed even BEFORE Frisk came along.

"This is what you’re doing. You either prove to Chara that you don’t have to kill (which seems to help them, going by the “half-full” statement and general spirit of the narrator at those times) or you teach them that killing is not just fine, but they HAVE to kill. Like Flowey, they seem highly suggestible, and they are looking to YOU for direction."

[At first, I was so confused. Why was I brought back to life? You. With your guidance. I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power.]

Your interpretation is like this:

[With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power.] (note the comma instead of the period!!)

The correct interpretation is this:

[At first, I was so confused. Why was I brought back to life? You. With your guidance. | I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power. ] (vertical bar separating two completely different topics. Chara moved onto something else here.)

"And like Flowey, if you show Chara any sign that this “kill or be killed” rule isn’t absolute, even after killing dozens of people, they hesitate. If you fail to kill everyone you possibly can in an area, no matter what it is or how much LOVE you’ve gotten, Chara will not kill Asriel. You’ll be bumped back on the neutral route."

You failed the Genocide Route, there's no point to this anymore. Unless EVERYONE is killed, the mission is failed. "Comedian got away:Failure."

"I mean, it’s not like they can’t move your body for you at that point, but even so, they drop everything to see what you do next and don’t even try to “possess” you for the duration of the run."

Actually, they REALLY can't. They don't take control of you at all until LV19. What, walking past Papyrus' puzzles? That's like Frisk hitting the Mad Dummy-This is a CUTSCENE!! You might say that the same can be argued about Sans, but there's something special about that-The kill count doesn't go up after killing Sans. Because WE didn't kill Sans-Chara did. This signifies the point that Chara can take control.

"If you teach Chara that Asriel’s way of thinking was wrong - for sparing lives and getting them both killed in the process - and to kill with no exceptions, they go on to kill him. https://66.media.tumblr.com/a8116baa18638813343c1389ebeec992/tumblr_inline_o2z0m9wIXM1th1axb_540.png

If they kill Asriel, it’s all over. Nothing you can do brings them back from this. They will immediately go on to destroy the world, because “there is nothing left for us here.” "

Which is a complete lie:Maybe with our newfound power we can break into Alphys' secret hideout.

"That’s what the Pacifist route is about, by contrast.

If the narrator is optimistic upon seeing the “half-full” bag only when you haven’t killed anyone…then they don’t want you to kill anyone. They want to believe that Asriel was just trying to do the right

thing."

..Um, why? Seriously, why would they want to believe getting the both of them killed was a GOOD thing, when this was their plan to free all of monsterkind, and destroy the "cruel" race of humanity?

"Because if you don’t kill anyone, then Asriel’s “never kill, no matter what” actions are validated, and he didn’t betray Chara by sparing the humans."

All those times though, it's against monsters. In this case, it's against humans. And seeing how Chara cared about monsters and hated humans, that is a VERY clear difference. Sparing all the monsters isn't going to prove to a monster-lover, human-hater that you should also always spare all the humans.

"You’re doing the narrator a favor, making them happy, optimistic, by being a pacifist. You teach bothChara and Asriel that he was right all along."

You DO teach Asriel this, but not Chara. And remember, Asriel went on to kill monsters too, because he wanted to see what happened, and eventually started treating everything like a game.

"And this seems to make them both happier and more at peace, despite being soulless. They are able to let go of their regret and move on."

Give me evidence of this for Chara:There is no narration to support this point of view.

"A soulless person has limitations, but not inevitabilities. They can show concern for others and retain a portion of their past identity. https://66.media.tumblr.com/98de1cd9564f3d94a02919ff7c13c8e5/tumblr_inline_o12vaz4JNe1th1axb_540.png "

Yes, they can. That doesn't mean they will. Chara turning SOULless is only the part that tipped things over the edge, Asriel's betrayal lead to hatred, and from the SOULlessness, it tipped over and became hatred for the entire monster race.

"Flowey cares about Frisk’s future at the end of their journey, and Chara fights alongside Frisk during their journey."

They never made a single attack until Sans. All they do is give you guides on the statistics of the monsters, telling you how many kills you've done, how many monsters are left.. And a few stuff about what the monsters are currently doing.

​​​​​​​"Yeah since Chara's been questioning themself after the whole plan thing, they quickly cope with the knowledge that Asriel was wrong seeing as this kid right here, Friskybits, first thing they do, is kill people without hearing their pleas or thinking about their circumstances."

Because they're a HUMAN. Just like the humans who killed Asriel at the first chance they got.

"By (after becoming numb to the shock and losing all humanity and becoming sadistic after a room's worth of people are killed as seen by the dog bag text) helping out this new buddy with this new plan, their mission, learning from us that "the mission" is more important than any lives and as to cope with their new ideal of Asriel betraying them, they make us their new BFF."

Not quite a BFF. You'll see why later on...

"It’s like I said before. On the Pacifist run, you teach them that what Asriel did had merit. Frisk survives, makes friends, and helps get the ”best” ending, all without fighting back, even when attacked."

Once again, against MONSTERS. Not HUMANS.

"But if you’re riding on the Asshole Avenue, you do the pretty much worst thing possible. You teach Chara that Asriel was wrong to not kill, that the “mission” is worth more than anyone’s lives. Which means he betrayed them. Their most trusted person… "

This is the conclusion I believe they reached at the very beginning. Except for the whole mission thing, that was developed AFTER the hatred of monsters, not before. Unless you meant the "mission" to eradicate humanity, in which case, Asriel actually got the two of them KILLED by going against the plan, so...

"Hey, does this sound familiar?"

''“I don’t know why I ever acted like you were the same person. (pause) Maybe…the truth is…Chara wasn’t really the greatest person, while, Frisk…you’re the type of friend I wish I always had. So maybe I was kind of projecting a little bit”.  Asriel wishes he could have always been friends with someone like ''Frisk, so he projects the persona of someone he was always friends with - Chara - on to them. If you take the Highway to Hell, this happens in reverse."

So.. They project Frisk onto Asriel? That doesn't make sense, they still kill Asriel.

"Remember that locket? The one that says “Best Friends Forever”?

Yeah, I remember that locket. ​​​​​ "There are two presents in this room, indicating one is meant for the other. The one on Chara’s side of the room is a worn dagger, useful, according to them, for gardening (and excited-about-watersausages, constantly-drawing-golden-flowers Chara seems to like plants). The one on Asriel’s side of the room is a single heart-shaped locket."

Yep.

"It’s possible there were matching lockets, but if that’s the case, the one Frisk picks up is likely Asriel’s; Chara would have been buried in theirs, and it explains why he’s not “really” wearing it when Frisk has it. It’s also possible given that it’s called “The Locket” that there is only one, also possibly indicated by there only being one in the present box."

"Heart Locket" has different stats than "The Locket". So maybe there are two lockets after all. Stat talk aside, there only being one in the box is NOT an indicator that there is only one, when you yourself said the other one would be buried with Chara. The former IS such an indicator, though.

"Regardless, the locket in the box seems to be Asriel’s. This locket belongs to Chara’s best friend.

Which, in this run, is Frisk. https://66.media.tumblr.com/2436b717be9755b1b32dea71dacce53b/tumblr_inline_o1j57aoBY51th1axb_540.png "

It was neither Chara or the player who fell on these flowers, but Frisk. “You”, as Frisk, are still the one walking around."

I consider Frisk and the player the same, but yes, it's Frisk.

"So when Frisk equips the Locket…

https://66.media.tumblr.com/0966c8d88a94ce8e9bf8432d1918dfb7/tumblr_inline_o1iv1nQI2X1th1axb_540.png

The locket is right where it belongs."

Yes, Frisk is their NEW friend. Frisk isn't being projected onto Asriel, Frisk merely REPLACED Asriel. There's a difference.

"Forever."

You know, right after Chara says that you're a great partner, they take away your ability to S/L/R, and leaves you in the void, not intending to keep their promise of moving onto the next world. So much for being partners, am I right? This was all an elaborate hoax, a scam. And this is what I meant by us not being quite BFFs.

"You, the player, who objectively know Asriel was right outside of the game, inflict that great pain of betrayal on them and manipulate them into thinking you are the better partner by comparison."

Um, HOW do I know that Asriel was right? What if I really DID think that the world is kill or be killed? Also, once again, killing the monsters is not the same as killing the humans. It could simply be that I hate monsters and want to protect humanity from them. You know, like those humans who attacked Asriel. Why doesn't Chara consider the possibility that we're just one of them?

"That Asriel wasn’t their best friend, but you are."

Yeah, Chara, you got the sides wrong. Monsters aren't the good guys, the humans are. ..Chara, why'd you just destroy all the humans too?

"Chara doesn’t hate or even want to take over Frisk in this route. Far from it."

They CAN'T. They need at least LV19 to take over.

"In pacifist, Frisk can get subjected to numerous bouts of impatience from the narrator (who seems to get weary and annoyed with repeated checks especially) but for the most part it seems like they’re trying to humor the kid."

With jokes just as bad as Sans'. What if I'm a Papyrus and not a Sans?

"Sometimes they turn repeated checks into little jokes, like the “Snow Poff” conversation, or this one if you keep turning the sink on/off: https://66.media.tumblr.com/1dcaaf876d71720e57cd01c6e0ddcd77/tumblr_inline_o2fzztL4dW1th1axb_540.png "

Those are snarky/sarcastic remarks. Also like Sans.

"But in this route they’re angry and impatient. The underlying fury of being “betrayed”, the potential for moral depravity that comes with being soulless having been met to its utmost, colors their every interaction with every being, including their new partner.

They snap at them upon checking the presents in Snowdin… https://66.media.tumblr.com/b89de5e54d8a7fdbab5058cf8b389158/tumblr_inline_o3koqg7N0b1th1axb_540.png

won’t offer up the “snowdecahedron” joke… https://66.media.tumblr.com/09fe1668b7eee0daebb093a002692113/tumblr_inline_o2g0u5OzX41th1axb_540.png

and offer very quick checks for a lot items. https://66.media.tumblr.com/717142d45308ae993adcd009b9b1e706/tumblr_inline_o3korxg32H1th1axb_540.png

The overall tone in this route is “What are you doing? Let’s go.” "

Yeah, you have some EXP to grind. It's too bad Frisk can't just steal the presents:They steal a lot of other stuff (from shops).

"But, even so, there are seldom occasions in which they actually remove control from Frisk McChecksalot (actually, the player)."

This is more true than even you think.

"They make an initial mistake in their narration (lmao) but they’re still suggesting battle plans for you, so you are actually the one fighting this fight, not Chara…mostly.

At the very end, that last strike is not from your input. After your attack is dodged, they quickly make a second - the first time they attack on their own. https://66.media.tumblr.com/728de28b6212cb21cd5a7a52cec2d462/tumblr_inline_o2qfcn7xjT1th1axb_540.png

and their first kill. Since LOVE hasn’t increased before their strike and is still 19, this proves they could have fought without your input but allowed you to be in control for this fight as well, even including the “Spare” option. You were still “guiding” them."

They know Sans wouldn't spare you. Also, perhaps only you could have thought of the clever strategy of moving the box to attack Sans on his own turn, and you needed to get Chara into the right situation for them to make the final strike.

"After this, they then quickly march on to the garden, and kill the two people waiting there. Not because they don’t trust you to (after everything, I’m sure they’re fully expecting you to) but because, I think, they felt they should be the one to do it."

This is probably true. In fact, there is no MERCY button at all in Asgore's "fight", so even if we had control, we wouldn't be able to spare him-Just kill him.

"This route ends with their kill count technically at three, but as they feel they’re in partnership with Frisk and therefor an accessory to all the murders, they both share the LOVE and EXP for all kills. "

..Um, WHAT? Um, no. Frisk's kill count doesn't go up from Sans. Frisk's LOVE does, but that's because of their massive participation in the fight. Chara did three kills, Frisk did all the rest, and there is no sharing of kills.

"Then…"

Chara shows up!

"They go on a spiel about the nature of stats, give thanks, praise, etc. Emphasis is placed on your actions being done willingly and their partnership. Here’s where things get interesting."

Indeed, they worked together to do this.

"They give this option. This can be seen similar to a “fight” or “mercy” button, for the world this time. Obviously, they’ve been conditioned to expect you to choose “fight”, or “erase”."

This is a new step, though. Until now, we've only been killing monsters. Perhaps this is why when we choose no, they don't think we're going against our nature, and don't comment on this at all, instead just asking when WE were in control.

"Interestingly, they can erase the world themselves, but still provide an option dialogue for this. It’s as I said; they’re not interested in taking over. They believe they’re following your guidance (or what they think is Frisk’s, rather, but you are controlling Frisk) and a person can’t be guided if they take over all the time."

They want to see what you think first. But also, if you choose yes, their plan to take your SOUL afterwards is that much more likely to succeed, since it relies on getting you to think that YOU are responsible for the world's destruction.

"The option dialogues are a courtesy. Chara could’ve taken over at any time, but allowed you to do what you would - to guide them, one way or another, because they woke up confused and didn’t trust themselves after the failure of the plan. That’s what they meant."

Why did they blame themselves and not Asriel?

"You have led them on to believe this is what you were after all along. If you choose “erase”:

They’re like “right, exactly as I thought. You’re great, we’ll be together forever” and they’re practically making heart eyes. or whatever the hell those are "

https://66.media.tumblr.com/92458625ab0abcba811b544d3ea12fe2/tumblr_inline_o2g43jdwiH1th1axb_540.png"

And then they put you in a void and refuse to ACTUALLY take you to the next to do more killing. Why?

"As well as assuming this plan is to gain more of this "makes you feel not guilty anymore "LOVE" stuff. " Who's stats do we see? "CHARA LV 1" Who's LOVE do we raise? "CHARA LV 20" Chara and Frisk share bodies, what affects Frisk, affects Chara."

No, this is because the SAVE originally belonged to Chara, and because we named Chara. Chara is bound to us, but their stats are not depending on Frisk's stats.

"In the end of course, we did it for no reason at all other than fun, and Chara, probably due to being raised right by Goatmom and their past as well as feeling betrayed after being convinced Asriel betrayed them due to what we taught them, only for us to betray them by either coming back to the game or choosing "Do not", decides to duel out some punishment for us believing we can do whatever we want without concequences."

Um, what? No, we DID do it for power! Come on, Chara, I want that next world!

"Choosing no…

They get a little flustered, if not dismayed. I mean, they just killed their family not five minutes ago for you - including their best friend, who they thought betrayed them, who they replaced with you… who just betrayed them.

You were not after some lofty goal like destroying the world, you were killing because it was fun, because the world is your playground, when Chara assumed you were on some kind of mission. An appropriate amount of pissiness ensues."

No, I wanted not to destroy the world, but to defend it. Monsters and humans are opposing sides, and I, as a human, naturally fought the human side.

"Regardless of your choice, they strike down the world… https://66.media.tumblr.com/31c768069be10a813c02774c101a4576/tumblr_inline_o2g5303K3a1th1axb_540.png

…not Frisk; this is erasure of world, visualized; the window of Undertale shakes, and we know what Frisk getting attacked and killed looks like."

Yes, this is in fact the WORLD getting destroyed. The game only closes for the same reason why it did when Flowey crashed the game-Chara also took away S/L/R from us, ensuring that we can't just LOAD to bring the world back. (Fun fact:Chara recreates the world by using a "True" Reset.)

"If you wait on the screen for several minutes, making your intention to go back clear, and retroactively making it obvious you did the run for fun, not a “purpose”, they chew you out. https://66.media.tumblr.com/9b73042587dca5ff85970d8a60025f5d/tumblr_inline_o2g5nixmX61th1axb_540.png "

I'd wait either way, I'm trapped in the void. I'm looking for YOU, Chara. I want you to take me to the next world!

"After venting their annoyance at you (and confirming this route’s actions were mostly on you), they suggest a compromise. https://66.media.tumblr.com/bbc941f1430e3fdaa850ef4c16ff757b/tumblr_inline_o2g614hd6o1th1axb_540.png

This confirms that, throughout the route, Frisk still had their soul. Otherwise, it couldn’t be used as a bargaining chip here. https://66.media.tumblr.com/67a06f670e4c2eab7d0bcee8c5280ecb/tumblr_inline_o2g6a9HALx1th1axb_540.png"

Correct. And taking that SOUL was their plan.

"You’ve never had your soul taken more politely. They asked for permission. They even double-checked to make sure. They give you want you want in return."

LOL this is ridiculous! If you say no, they say that you have to stay there for all eternity! That's right, stay in the void for all eternity! No next world for you, no nothing! You're pretty much FORCED to give it away!

"Except, it’s not your soul. Chara thinks they’re talking to Frisk when they ask for “your” soul (they think they’ve been talking to Frisk this whole time) and it is Frisk’s soul that they take."

Oh no, it IS our SOUL, because we ARE Frisk.

"congrats. you just sold an 8~ year old’s soul. asshole."

Nah, Frisk did that themselves.

"I believe they’re trying to hold you accountable. https://66.media.tumblr.com/734d0a56174e53d13e14d24e48ab0027/tumblr_inline_o2g6ufzpsH1th1axb_540.png

It’s right after this statement that they suggest the “compromise”. If you kill everyone for fun, reset, and try to live happily after with them, they can now shut it down. "

LOL, they kill everyone else. They could have ended it just by killing FRISK, not literally everyone else and ruining their own friends' life! No, this was Chara's plan from the BEGINNING! They wanted to be able to breach the barrier, and brutally kill the humans there.. Their plan is, and always was, to eradicate humanity. The addition here is that now they hate monsters, and are evil and sadistic now. This is the REAL reason why they don't take you to the next world, they hate humans and monsters in their world, but having never been to other worlds, they have no reason to hate them. (Yeah, my POV has changed a bit:Chara's an anti-villain.)

"They don’t really interfere in theneutral endings. You led them to their point of no return - killing Asriel - and they make sure you can’t return from it, either.

But if you bring back the world and don’t try to get a happy ending, they chew you out anyway.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/6ae405dfbc0860aca46c8b5704a7c78c/tumblr_inline_o2g7gdFU911th1axb_540.png

“Kinkshamed again!”

- you, probably"

Your perverted sentimentality is to keep on bringing the world back to destroy it once again. If you want it destroyed, just KEEP IT DESTROYED! Saying "no" to destroying the world gives us dialogue saying that "this is the feeling I spoke of.".

"And they are so weirded out that they feel an obligation to tell you to do, literally, anything else. https://66.media.tumblr.com/a274cff253c439c9412de4037af9f6f0/tumblr_inline_o2g7q5nY0m1th1axb_540.png "

So that they can fulfill their revenge on humanity, of course!!

"Some people have suggested this is to “kill humanity themselves” but. come on. LOVE is just yourwillingness to hurt. That shit cuts through monsters like a hot knife through butter, but out in the real world they’re just an angry baby with a gardening tool, humanity could fend them off with a wet mop."

They have the power to literally destroy the world, I'm pretty sure they'd do well against humans. They're not a human themselves anymore, if they were, they couldn't take your SOUL-Humans cannot absorb other human SOULs. No, they're something else entirely-A demon. The angel of death from the prophecy.

"On top of that, the destruction of humanity is literally only one soul away. ​​​​​​​ Asgore would have taken Frisk’s soul and wiped them out, and by killing the children up close and personal, he’s proven he has the mettle to do it. If Chara wanted humanity destroyed, they need only give Asgore Frisk’s soul. They could even inhabit the now completely soulless, determination-infused body like Flowey does if they chose. They do not ever go this route."

But they don't want JUST humanity dead anymore, they want EVERYONE dead!

"Plus, it’s a pointless act when they can already destroy the world, and Chara’s whole reason for being pissed at you is for killing when you didn’t really have a point, then dodging responsibility for it."

They wanted humanity to suffer through it. To meet a suffering end. Remember, they're sadistic like that.

"Functionally, you paid for the game so you have to be able to play it, but that doesn’t stop this pissed-off 12~ year old from appointing themself your final, unkillable judge if you choose to murder everyone just for funsies and then act like you can get away with it."

"You think you are above consequences."-Chara

Um, I am. *brings everyone back to life.* See?

"That’s why they’re here in this route. Chara is Undertale’s very last stand in a long, long effort to try to make you responsible for what you do here." (which you can overrun by being a dirty hacker, sadly no metaphorical in universe mechanic Toby cooks up can fix that.... You really are a monster aren't cha?) "

I don't consider hacking like that as canon. And what's all the stuff before then? "Of course, perhaps the same is the case in those games as well, and we don't know it. Link, you can stop killing all of those innocent pigs now."

Yep!

"I'm with Asgore pre-Chara:It'll only lead to another war."

Not if he fuses with 7 Human souls, at that point he's Thanos and can wipe out humanity with the snap of fingers. Not much of a war. Collective humanity: Ugh, I don't feel so good. *polygons into nothing*

(Here's a cool fanmade idea for a God Asgore theme) https://soundcloud.com/toby_fox/genocide-asgore-preview

"Not necessarily. What did Asriel tell us at the end? Not everything can be solved by just being nice."

He said "Don't kill, and don't be killed" before that, yes. You can do it Pokemon style by weakening them and then giving them Mercy or running. Though the only boss this applies to is Asgore.

"Oh, monster propaganda, eh? Wonder who's been spreading it?"

History books and passed down experience mostly. But Asgore and the Royal Guard after the demise of the children played their part.

"The Pacifist Route in of itself is peaceful, I'll give you that. It's the events that happen afterward where things go awry."

What events afterward?

"Of course she is. Even though THEY attacked ME first. And in Genocide, she even thinks I'm going to destroy humanity as well! Undyne, I think you got the wrong person. Chara hates humans, I (in my Genocide Frisk persona) hate MONSTERS!"

Well it's a classic case of dehumanization... (Demonsterization?)  Undyne hates Humanity as a species, as a race, collective humanity, individuals be damned, they're all the same! That kind of thinking. Humans in general are dangerous to her, so she goes in spears blazing. And with her job being to collect Souls for Asgore to free everyone, well, as she put it, "Your continued existance is a crime! If you really want to help us, die! (paraphrased)"

Wll that's mainly because you're a psycopath, so who's to say your murdering spree would end with Monsters?

(Though she doesn't reallly understand that there is a biological reason why this child can kill Monsters with ease, simply by not caring enough.   Again, on the surface, with humans, they'd just be a baby with a guardening tool.

Monster history: "While monsters are mostly made of magic, human beings are mostly made of water. Humans, with their physical forms, are far stronger than us."  "Because they are made of magic, monsters' bodies are attuned to their SOUL. If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken. And the crueller the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us. Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill... Um, let's end the chapter here...")

(Translation: If you, as a Human, hated a Monster enough, and especially if you spooked them, you could Poke them and they'd die. Look at what Frisk can do with a stick after gaining enough LV, slice right through Toriel and she wasn't spooked at all.  And she knows this, of course.  "Y... you... really hate me that much?"  )

And while yes, Chara hates Humans they don't really care about going after them, in the end they destroy the world *in general*, consuming this Timeline with their DT, as they own the SAVE file and can Stop or Start alternate timelines.

"The Royal Guard IS armed! Metal plates and all!"

No, that's Armored lol. I meant weapons.

"You want war? I'll GIVE you war, Undyne! NGAAH!!!

"THAT'S RIGHT PUNK!! HERE AND NOW! LET'S END THIS! With every Monster's hopes and dreams I CAN'T LOSE!!!!  NGAHHHH!"

"Kind of like us in Genocide, don't you think? Just replace every time she says "human" with "monster" and vice-versa. And rather than being trapped underground, we were brutally attacked by monsters. Frankly, the war had a reason, it was to stop monsters from absorbing human SOULs and destroying humanity."

Indeed, that kind of thing is the source of all conflict, two sides, both think they're the good guys, they refuse to compromise, think about that next time you hear about conflict anywhere in the world.

Well not Genocide, Genocide is Psycopathy, self defense would be the just Sans neutral ending.

"it's gotten so quiet, there's a bad feeling hanging around everyone, like everyone's just going to die here, trapped in the dark... you're probably wondering why i'm not the ruler.   i'm not cut out for something like that, i like to take it easy, y'know ...   that was a joke, this is what happens when people like me take it easy... see ya." -Sans' legendary lines.

Under normal circumstances there is no way you would encounter an entire room's worth of Monsters if you're just passing through. Only by Grinding can Genocide be done.

The reason was paranoia. Monsters had no such intention at the time. But now....

"..That or if I think the idea of healing the enemy and letting her continue to chase after me is bad strategy, because until I DO pour water, I have no idea she'll just leave. Remember, you're supposed to play the game blind."

Yes, but I'm talking from the perspective of a sympathetic Pacifist. It's still pretty bad, one has to see she's trying to protect the Monsters.

"Of course we're not!"

Yep! In pacifist anyways..

"So it worked! We found a way!"

Yes!

Okay, give me the solution to the problem of a single rogue monster absorbing a human SOUL, and using that immense power to gather more SOULs, and eventually destroy all of mankind! My solution is the Barrier.

Try talking it out? Though it's highly unlikely a single Monster could beat a Human on their guard.

Also, I have to wonder if this fear was unfounded for another reason, as we saw with Flowey, the SOULs can revolt if they disagree. It's a partnership. It seems like a SOUL fusion has never happened before Asriel and Chara and was always a question of "They *could* do this, they *could* do that." Never putting this into consideration.

We see this in Waterfall, everyone assumes Asriel had total control over Chara's SOUL, since he absorbed it, even Flowey did (foolishly) when he absorbed the 6 Human Souls. "You're supposed to obey me!" but Asriel breaks the news that Chara and Asriel had shared control over the fusion-body.

And the same can be seen with Flowey as there are intervals where the SOUL takes a turn fighting you, as seen with those static pauses. And even the music, the main melody is Your Best Nightmare, but it is interrupted by Static, Alarm sounds, and a little intermission where the SOUL fights you, with unique instrumentation for each one. They were working with Flowey, so they use the Your Best Friend tune, but after you call for Help they stop and the music becomes calm and serene and slowly but surely they stop taking their turns and sabotage Flowey. First by lowering their defense, and then by disrupting the Fusion altogether.

This is even true for Asriel's fight, calling out to your Friends makes them take a turn fighting. But It seems that in this case, Asriel was able to manipulate them, turning them into Lost Souls.

But  this was in order to make them want to fight you, supressing the memories of friendship and turning them into their pre-you selves, but even so,  he still had no control over their ability to appear. (It also gives an interesting insight into their motives, regrets, and characters.)

Toriel: "This for your own good. ''No one will leave again"

Sans: "just give up.  i did.  why even try? you'll never see 'em again"

Papyrus: " I MUST CAPTURE A HUMAN, THEN EVERYONE WILL-  . . . "

Undyne: "You're our real enemy. All Humans will die!"

Alphys: "You hate me, don't you? All I do is hurt people.." ''

Asgore: "Forgive me for this.  This is my duty..."

But you remind them!

Toriel: O''ur fate is up to you now!

Sans: nah, i'm rootin' for ya kid.

Papyrus: WAIT, YOU ARE MY FRIEND! I COULD NEVER CAPTURE YOU!

Undyne: Well, some humans are OK, I guess!

Alphys: That's not true! My friends like me! And I like you too!" ''

''Asgore: You are our future! ''

You can feel their Souls resonating within the Fused Soul, which is why honestly why I think, even if Chara hadn't reminded you to Save Asriel his plan would fail like before. "The souls?! What are they doing?! NO! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO OBEY ME! STOP IT!"

Etc.

Only if it had gone that way, Asriel probably wouldn't have been able to Break the Barrier (nor would he be saved so it'd probably be exactly like before) without the power of the others.

So it's a good thing Chara spoke up, but why wouldn't they! He's their best friend! And they believe in him and Mercy thanks to our example, teaching the lost child what the right path is!

"Unless I'm vanquishing the darkness, to defend the humans that would fall after me! :3 (You'll have to do more than that to shatter the hero RPG mentality.. We grind for enemies in ANY game!) Besides, I need to do that to grind for the final boss!!"

You've gotta pont. Well, if this was the Undertale YELLOW fangame,  Undertale's story is "You control a lost child trapped underground", it's not about Justice. It's simply about making it out alive. But then again, said child finds they get stronger with each kill so, yeah. You're right. It would become RPG hero mentality.

Still should take time to consider their misery. And Undertale has plenty of guilt trip scenes for that purpose.

"Not Chara, this "RPG demon" you were talking about. Clearly Chara wasn't an RPG archetype in their early life. But they WERE like this since the beginning of the game. My Chara has no relation to RPGs at all, yours does. And an RPG-like character WOULD have to have ALWAYS been a demon, or never be one at all."

Not really, remember that metaphor involves your choices speifically making that RPG character a demon. Link won't rob houses of their Rupees if you don't make him!

Same with Chara. Chara starts out neutral with 1 LV, what we do next affects what they believe.

A Character cannot move on it's own!

That is the metaphor of Chara's character arc and backstory. Chara's search to see if Asriel was right by letting you teach them what is right and what to do is a metaphor for how a Character doesn't do anything on their own.

"Flowey tried to be good at first. You CAN have a moral compass. What corrupted Flowey was abuse of the SAVE ability. He's actually more like the PLAYER than Chara. There wasn't some guiding force corrupting Flowey at all."

I'm talking about an Innate moral compass. Flowey did what's right first because he had been taught to do what is right, but when he got curious of what would happen if he did what's wrong, there was nothing to stop him. He got guilty but he was capable of continuing. And sure enough, the guilt went away after a while.

Flowey corrupted himself. His own curiosities and lack of inhibition did.

At first, Chara didn't need to trust Frisk, just see what they would do. They looked to Frisk's actions for an answer to their question of who was right back there when those Humans attacked. Chara never needed to know them personally, and in fact Chara never reveals themself in Pacifist. They do support you, but they never really form a real relationship with you like, Chara: "You can do it, I believe in you!" You: "Who are you." Chara: "...N-None of your beeswax!" You: "Okay?...What's wrong don't you trust me?" Chara: "I haven't even known you for a day! Now go save my BFF!" You:" Fair point,  headvoice! Let's save goatboi!"

Now, in Genocide, Chara reveals themself "It's me, Chara", and gains trust in us, this is because in order to cope with the knowledge that Asriel was wrong they begin to project their lost friendship onto us.

But again, at first they don't trust us, at first they're turned to the darkside by watching us,  *then* they start to cozy up like

Chara: "Hey howya doin' I'm Chara, and I think we should be friends! While I normally wouldn't approve of what you're doing, watching you kill those enemies of yours instead of getting yourself killed by bistowing Mercy on killers like these, -unlike somebody I used to think was my friend-, makes me think I'd like to join you and you'd be a way better friend, you've got some sort of mission right? One you'd never betray for any reason? I'll help you complete it! Let's show, Asri-, I mean those Monsters how a real partnership works!" It's literally what Asriel does at the end of pacifist, but backwards.

And you're just like, "yeah, thanks" and then in the end Chara's like "We did it best buddy! We're all done here, gonna go somegame else?   Let's do it!  BFFs forever! I'll always be there to give you a Heads Up Display!"

And then you're like "Hey screw that and you, I want this old game back, I'm not done playing with it!" And Chara's like "!!... Y- you......you betray me......     ...    You mean this wasn't a mission, you just wanted to do this because you could?  .    .   .   WELL SORRY "PAL", THINGS DON'T WORK THIS WAY! ACTIONS HAVE CONCEQUENCES! SCREW YOU TOO!"

Then you come back and after a while Chara's like: "What's the matter? Lookin' for your little toyland?  Why?  You're the one who broke it dummy. But of course you don't get it, you think you can do whatever you want, no problems, huh?" You: "..Yesss?" Chara: "Hah, That's right.   ...   How about we make a deal, give me something and I'll give you your game!" You: "Anything!" Chara: "So you'll give me your SOUL!" You: "....Yes yes, I'll do it!" Chara: .... Then it is done! Happy gaming!"

One pacifist later.... You: Wow, looks like nothing changed after doing a that Genocide, at least I still get to enjoy my fav ending   Chara: THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK! *gives you the metaphorical bird by killing everyone* Remember our deal? Punishment time! "

Or:  One genocide later.... Chara: Hi, It's me, your Character,  the demon that comes when you give it a name! That feeling you get when you Level me up sure is great huh? But... That's not what you want is it? No, you just want to mess with us. Just remember, you did this to yourself! *erases world* "

In a way, it is like your theory, with the added detail that Chara only thinks this IF you show them Asriel was wrong by killing (not enough, tho,  they'll just be depressed) AND then turn them into a sadistic killer/your BFF by showing them a full on genocide.

Again, at first Chara's neutral like Chara: " Hey wha? I'm ALIVE!  ...Man.. What is life? Is it kill or be killed? Like I thought? Or Spare or be spared? Like he thought... Hey look a humanperson, I hate those things! ...  But hey, they've never seen Monsters before, and the Monsters will try to kill them... maybe...maybe they can show me!  You: *is under attack* Chara: "Hey you!" You: "Who, Me?" Chara: " Yeah You! Look at that enemy guy over there! Will you Spare or will you Fight?" You: "Hmm..."    Chara: "Consider this: He's had it rough! Well?"  You: Hmm....Y'know headvoice, I think I'm gonna- (insert choice and outcome here.)

YOU show them the way.

They REALLY start supporting you tho, when you fight Toriel, like,   Chara: Hey look it's my Mo-nster! ...A Different Monster! She's not going to be like the others, can you show Mercy without Fighting or Running away? Oh, BTW, she knows best for you, she's the best most responsible Mommy ever YOU HEAR ME?!"   You: "Okay!?.... Hmm... "   Chara:" *watches anxiously* This'll really prove who's right! Did my goatbro betray me?"

(Meanwhile in genocide it's like, Chara: "She's not worth talking to, bestbuddy, she never let us Kids get a say in things! Knows best for you, BAH!" )

From now on it's all happy from them!

"Yet, you argue that Frisk, a HUMAN, which Chara DISTRUSTS, can corrupt Chara from a good human into becoming a genocidal maniac in less than a day?"

Yes I do argue that, why do you assume the Floweytale genocide run took more than a day to complete? And the player can go from loving these characters to learning to kill them in a day, just watch any Undertale full stream of all runs. Undertale's a short game after all.

"Chara's belief was ALREADY that Asriel was wrong. Chara tried to kill the humans, Asriel resisted. In my take, this betrayal lead to Chara hating monsters too, fueling their desire for monster genocide. Alas, this is no reason to go out looking for monsters to kill, or to go killing humans too, now that Chara suddenly likes humans because reasons! (Deus Ex Machina)"

No it wasn't, Chara was unsure of this, they needed an example from which to draw a conclusion. They needed proof that Asriel was right or wrong. And they get it from our actions. It isn't that Chara likes humans, I'm sure they'd choose a Monster if given a choice but they were not, seems they could only sync with a Human soul (probably due to the DT which brought them back) and specifically one of a similar color. Why? IDK, but there is a mechanic in the game called "Synchronicity" alluded to by Clam Girl.

Synchronicity is a meaningful coincidence. The belief that events can be not only connected by cause and affect, but by meaning, that there is a fate instore for us all and it's all emergent from a deeper oneness within the Universe that connects the Paranormal (such as magical things) and the Physical (such as Human things.)  It argues that the Paranormal, things like ghosts, Monsters, magic all that,  does really exist! And that it's all apart of the Universes grand scheme! "In the grand scheme of things, she(suzy) might be why you came here in the first place."- Clam Girl.

It's likely Chara's connection to Frisk (and their simillar appearence, despite the fact they are not related) is a Synchronicity.

I urge you to research the theory of Synchrinocity (and related concepts like the book "The roots of coincidence" and Synchromysticism, a part of the field of Chaos Magic), it is a crazy paranormal theory (back when people were supersitutious) in our reality but it might be how Undertale's reality actually works. It's all about a connection between the Physical and Mystrical, a connection between Causality(cause and effect), and the related Space-Time continuum, and Synchronicity(meaningful coincidence) and the related Spirituality (which to the author of the theory is considered to be the same as energy, so he just calls it energy).

This theory being how Undertale's world works can explain why the Determination of a SOUL can influence physical Space-Time and create Timelines, What Sans wants to stop, or why Monsters(Paranormal beings) and Humans(Physical beings) are polar opposites (even have opposite looking Souls) but can combine into perfect beings, as Synchronicity talks about a perfect oneness between the Paranormal and Physical.

Synchronicity relates to the Universe having purpose, a fate in store for you, when it does things, that it isn't random and is trying to make things perfect. It can explain why Asriel and Chara were revived in the first place. As no matter which route you take, their "unfinished business" is dealt with. Heck you, the Chara look-alike, Frisk, even help Chara complete their mission of being the Future of Humans and Monsters despite their death, the Universe, fate, just decides to add in those Souls to make it easier for this Chara reencarnation to do so, which is why you're the 8th Human.

And even in genocide, we help Asriel get his sense of Mercy back, when he decides it's a better idea to bail on genocide as Flowey. (Must have pissed Chara off, thinking about it. "Oh, again, huh?"

Clam Girl knows this is how the Undertale Universe works. "Not knowing where I live is no issue, fate finds a way." This is the line before she tells you that you and Suzy are connected, even if you don't know it yet.

Hell, Clam girl seems to have even more insight into the Universe than Sans does, she can sense Aura in a paranormal way to determined you've killed Undyne for example. It's a shame she doesn't get much attention.

She's almost like an opposite to Sans. Sans is a science guy, he knows how things work scientifically and knows a thing or two about Space and Time. Clam Girl is more like a spiritual medium. And according to Synchronicity theory, they are both right, just only looking at one side of the  Cosmic coin instead of the whole. (It's kind of like Doctor Strange, jeez what's with me and Marvel today?)   They both are connected to Gaster, with their knowledge combined, maybe that's what drove Gaster to conduct the Experiement that made him one with the Universe. Though not in the way monks recommend.....

(Another thing I find interesting is that even Clam Girl and Sans' attitudes reflect this.   Clam Girl like spritual people is happy and content with any situation, as sprituality makes you believe there is a necessary reason for why things happen.    While Sans is depressed and discontent with any situation, as cold hard science teaches you that the Universe has no meaning or purpose, things happen because of the laws of physics and that's the way they are.   They need to hook up and see the big picture together!  Synchronicity!  I feel like Sans would be happier this way, while Clam Girl would be more rational...but still happy. )

Point is, Synchronicity(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity) is Undertale's version of supersymmetry(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry) in our Universe, connecting two seemingly unconnected facets of reality, the paranormal and spiritual, and the physical and scientific.

In Undertale's plot It's Toby's in Universe explanation, a metaphor for how game mechanics such as plot and monsters and saving and loading works. ( Fun fact: Toby has dipped into Synchronicity before, his Earthbound halloween hack had a track called "Synchronicity".  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy9PfbXFQJM) which played exactly when the main character, Varik got his "call to adventure" after running into a missing poster which lead to the game.  A Synchronicity. Yes, Toby was a genius back then too. But a vulgar teen, as we can see by the final boss dialogue XD which is why he's mortified by the game nowadays.)   I wonder if Synchronicity will be explored in whatever is "fast approaching" I think it's that new game he promised back in the kickstarter, maybe he'll release it this halloween as a reference(probably not, as he hates being associated with the "bad rom hack with swears" but who knows, humble beginnings can be references, I still like to think halloween because spooky scary skeletons, of course! Gaster stuff is creepy.. and I wonder if he'll remix synchronicity like Megalovania(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymTIWwetcLM) from the same game, but then again, I think he ripped it from another Game unlike Megalovania so he can't. But he could reference it, IDK.)

Yes, I feel like he'll get more into Synchronicity in this game, that is meant, according to him, to explain more of Undertale's world to us. The game's also got something to do with Gaster and "darkness". "THE DARKNESS KEEPS GROWING" -Dr. W. D. Gaster ex-royal scientist.

Anyways, back to Chara.

"..Yeah, you might be getting an idea as to why I consider the take of this Corruption to be absolutely ridiculous.

Do see how it's not? It's literally what happens, you are making up stories about Chara pushing us to kill when they do absolutely no such thing, you are free to make your own choices with no biases put upon you.

"Dog food! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!

.You can't use dog food. Therefore, calling it half-full denotes nothing. Monsters perhaps can use it, and if this is the case, it might in fact be the reverse, seeing that monsters having less food supply means they're closer to dying out."

What? What are you even getting at? This isn't even about wether or not it's useful to us, it's about how Chara describes it and how that description lets us see into their world view. Wether they see a container as half empty or half full when it only contains 50% of stuff.

"Actually, since it's "you remembered something funny", I don't believe this is the narrator thinking it's funny, but rather Frisk themselves. WE think it's funny, because WE killed them. The Mad Dummy has different flavor text on HOW you punch the dummy, depending on your LV. So no, the narrator did not change:Frisk did."

Chara describing it as "something funny" shows they also believe it's funny. If Chara did not think it was funny, they would say "You find this funny." But no, they are agreeing on the concept that this is funny. They say "something funny" as if it's a fact.

They don't say "you found this funny" they are saying you remembered something that IS funny. As if it's a fact to them.

"Because Chara was good in life. Not AFTER their death. They're a fallen angel, not an eternal demon."

Nice play on words. But I disagree. After their death they were neutral, it is during a genocide that they are a fallen angel.

"No, Frisk has changed. Frisk reminds Asgore of Chara, because they acted similarly to Chara did in life. If Frisk acts completely different, Asgore will not recognize them as such, and as in LV20, Chara has near full control, their demonic form starting to come out, Frisk isn't recognized as a human."

Frisk hasn't changed, Frisk was the one who wanted to fight in the first place, that's how Genocide happens, no Chara is the one who changed. You're right on the rest of the first thing.

Jeez you're going full fanon.

Chara is not in control, control is split between You and Chara, but Chara always lets you make your own choices as you are their guide, you are the one who walked over to Asgore's room. The one who could just do a true reset instead or could spare from the very beginning.

Chara kills Asgore FOR you, believing this is what you want, partner, and likely because they felt like they had to do it, character wise. And both would get the EXP anyways due to their link. As seen with Sans, who was Chara's kill but you still LV'd up and so did Chara.

Neither of you are human. You turned Chara into one of you. Though you could say Frisk was corrupted, and that it's player's actions.

"As I said, it's FRISK who finds it funny now that the dogs are dead:Not Chara."

As I said, it's Chara too.

"Yes, Chara has changed. But this is because of Asriel's betrayal, not because of anything Frisk did."

No it's because of what Frisk did, "dusty dance" Chara does not exist until you kill enough Monsters. And you do that of your own will with no guidance from anyone, because it is you who gives THEM guidance. In pacifist they are a dear. Otherwise in neutral where you've killed they're a bit of a downer...

"In the first quote, Flowey wondered that on his own. This happens after you defeat Omega Flowey, even on a No Mercy route (not to be confused with a Genocide Route-In a No Mercy Route, you just don't spare or run away from anyone-You don't actively grind for monsters until the area is cleared). The second happens if you still kill someone afterwards, and was likely a sarcastic remark, since there was no real change in perspective, he thought it was kill or be killed even BEFORE Frisk came along."

The change in perspective happened in the first quote where he, (similar to Chara) calls upon you to show him if killing isn't the way, what you did was change it back again. You confirmed his old beliefs and he tells you that sarcastically, because he didn't really learn anything new.

"

[At first, I was so confused. Why was I brought back to life? You. With your guidance. I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power.]

Your interpretation is like this:

[With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power.] (note the comma instead of the period!!)

The correct interpretation is this:

[At first, I was so confused. Why was I brought back to life? You. With your guidance. | I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power. ] (vertical bar separating two completely different topics. Chara moved onto something else here.)"

No, it is you who is confused.

Tae a look at this statement.

"Perhaps.

We can reach a compromise."

This SHOULD be. "Perhaps, we can reach a compromise." The earlier one is grammatically incorrect. It's due to Chara's way of speaking. Again, Chara's speech is broken up into short sentances during this meeting. But you can still get what they're saying.

Guidance cannot bring someone back to life the very idea is ludicrus. To guide someone they have to be not dead.

It was our Determination that brought them back. And it was our guidance that taught them to grind for power.

When they talk about our guidance they are no longer talking about what brought them back to life. As, they already answered that with "You.  My "human soul" my "determination" they were not mine "but YOURS" (you ommited that.)  telling us that it was our SOUL and Determination that brought them back."

It is our guidance that makes them who they are in the runs, either the real Chara or the genocidal monster. It seems to me like you question Chara's presense in pacifist... But they're there, as seen by the check of their bed in pacifist. "What a comfortable bed, if you laid down here, you might never get up." Morbid joke, Chara.

And of course you are always, in every run, treated to Chara's memory (Frisk would not have it.)  of death when you die and when they would be dying too due to the link and flashing back in their final moments.

Asgore: "You cannot give up just yet!... Chara! Stay determined!" *reset due to DT at the moment of death* "

(And other versions in the text files, even an unused one from who seems to be Asriel saying, "Chara! is this a joke!  Chara, you're CHARA, you can't give up! Stay determined." which is weird considering his in on the plan, guess that's why it's unused.   I read one tumblr on Toby's new game suggesting it's a clue that you might control Chara in this new prequel game. As it suggests there was a time Chara had their own adventure.   Also it's an interesting line, as if Chara is a celeb, it's saying "You're THE Chara, you can't die!" And they were in fact very popular among Monsters in their time as the backstory at Asgore's suggests.  Actually maybe it was a Monster kid fan who came to visit? IDK. I keep rambling this post is pretty long huh?  )

Other moments when you see Chara's flashbacks are when you sleep too much at Toriel's and Chara is either dreaming or flashing back to this moment (must have been very traumatic for them.). This dream seems to be motivation for you to get up and save the world. A synchronicity maybe. Synchronicity also has alot to do with dreams as mystical events.

And when you fall from the bridge, in which you share the flashback Chara gets of meeting Asriel, after they fell.

So yeah.

"You failed the Genocide Route, there's no point to this anymore. Unless EVERYONE is killed, the mission is failed. "Comedian got away:Failure."

Yes, but not only do they stop seeing this as a mission, they stop being murder-y in general and just are a gloomy neutral.

"Actually, they REALLY can't. They don't take control of you at all until LV19. What, walking past Papyrus' puzzles? That's like Frisk hitting the Mad Dummy-This is a CUTSCENE!! You might say that the same can be argued about Sans, but there's something special about that-The kill count doesn't go up after killing Sans. Because WE didn't kill Sans-Chara did. This signifies the point that Chara can take control."

Uh yes they, can. Chara's ability to control your body isn't just in genocide, it's also in pacifist, when they open a random page of the Monster History book for you. Chara's ability to control you has nothing to do with LOVE (again, LOVE is not physical power, it's just your willingness to hurt.) . It could always be done. Control over Frisk's body is split between them like a Soul fusion.

While it is debatable wether it's Chara or Frisk that moved it's likely it was Chara as Chara in their narration shows a ton of impatience, they wouldn't stand Papyrus's puzzles. Frisk never moves during a conversation. Only when walking and preforming actions. It's unheard of for a player character to do this.

"Which is a complete lie:Maybe with our newfound power we can break into Alphys' secret hideout."

We don't have any power, LOVE is your Level Of ViolEnce, it shows your willingness to hurt, that kind of thing cuts though Monsters like a hot knife through butter (as seen in Monster history). Otherwise we're still just a kid with a gardening tool which is close enough to a real knfie that Chara calls it that in genocide, despite in pacifist explaining it's dull and only good for cutting plants.

I feel like I explained this before.

Chara could always erase the SAVE file, but they don't have the willingness to destroy the world until they reach LV 21 and all guilt is gone.

"..Um, why? Seriously, why would they want to believe getting the both of them killed was a GOOD thing, when this was their plan to free all of monsterkind, and destroy the "cruel" race of humanity?"

Because, it's the lesson of Undertale, they would learn that it was wrong to try and kill the Humans and do a genocide. And because they would learn that Asriel was indeed trying to teach them to do the right thing and it was not all for nothing, that they were going about all this wrong.

"All those times though, it's against monsters. In this case, it's against humans. And seeing how Chara cared about monsters and hated humans, that is a VERY clear difference. Sparing all the monsters isn't going to prove to a monster-lover, human-hater that you should also always spare all the humans."

Of course it would, considering Frisk was attacked to and fro by Monsters and still spared them. Chara can compare this to their own experience with Humans.

"You DO teach Asriel this, but not Chara. And remember, Asriel went on to kill monsters too, because he wanted to see what happened, and eventually started treating everything like a game."

Yes we do teach this to Chara, as seen by their actions in pacifist. That was way before we came along, dude.

"Give me evidence of this for Chara:There is no narration to support this point of view."

All of the pacifist narration, Chara is very very happy in pacifist. At the end of pacifist they celebrate at your image "It's you!" if you look in the mirror at Toriel's. Being taught Asriel was right, they would have no regrets. In the end everything happened as it should have.

When you turn on the game after Pacifist Flowey acknowledges Chara's fight alongside Frisk against Flowey's ability to RESET he acknowledges they might be worried about Frisk, and tells them not to worry or reset themselves. Though, knowing the allure, assume it's totally possible they have.

"Yes, they can. That doesn't mean they will. Chara turning SOULless is only the part that tipped things over the edge, Asriel's betrayal lead to hatred, and from the SOULlessness, it tipped over and became hatred for the entire monster race."

No, Chara was unsure wether what Asriel did was betrayal, or wether it was right, therefore that's not true at first. Only in genocide. Though it isn't hatred for Monsters, just the need to attack  the targets of the mission in order to complete it.

"They never made a single attack until Sans. All they do is give you guides on the statistics of the monsters, telling you how many kills you've done, how many monsters are left.. And a few stuff about what the monsters are currently doing."

It's talking about Pacifist first of all, (by the way these are quotes from the post about this theory I sent you which I can see you lied about reading. (https://determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this)) secondly Chara works with you, giving you guides and in the Asriel fight the SAVE option.

"Because they're a HUMAN. Just like the humans who killed Asriel at the first chance they got."

Well, Frisk is still a young child, I dunno if Chara hated Human chilldren like them. They can learn to not be garbage. But they didn't. And if a CHILD couldnt.... And they're still a person, so it applies.

"This is the conclusion I believe they reached at the very beginning. Except for the whole mission thing, that was developed AFTER the hatred of monsters, not before. Unless you meant the "mission" to eradicate humanity, in which case, Asriel actually got the two of them KILLED by going against the plan, so..."

Again, they do not reach this in the beginning only during genocide, nor do they have a hatred of Monsters, genocide doesn't come from hatred, just completion of the mission to kill them. It's the mission to do Genocide and get LOVE.

"So.. They project Frisk onto Asriel? That doesn't make sense, they still kill Asriel."

No it would be Asriel onto Frisk.

""Heart Locket" has different stats than "The Locket". So maybe there are two lockets after all. Stat talk aside, there only being one in the box is NOT an indicator that there is only one, when you yourself said the other one would be buried with Chara. The former IS such an indicator, though."

Not my conclusion. The stats and descriptions seem to depend on the run. Maybe it has to do with the amount of power they FEEL they're getting from this objects. Increasing their confidence. IDK.

"Yes, Frisk is their NEW friend. Frisk isn't being projected onto Asriel, Frisk merely REPLACED Asriel. There's a difference."

Well, Asriel, deep down, knew you weren't Chara, even in the Asriel fight he says "I'm not ready to say goodbye to someone like you again.  LIKE you.  He knows it isn't really them.  So it's in a sense the same except Chara isn't calling Frisk Asriel.

And again, it's the reverse of what Asriel does at the end of pacifist.

"You know, right after Chara says that you're a great partner, they take away your ability to S/L/R, and leaves you in the void, not intending to keep their promise of moving onto the next world. So much for being partners, am I right? This was all an elaborate hoax, a scam. And this is what I meant by us not being quite BFFs."

It was never our ability, we always asked CHARA to save their own file. It's kind of like the Flowey mechanic in Undertale Yellow. But yes.


 * sigh* I swear I explained this.  I KNOW I did.....

It's YOU who takes Chara to the next world buddy, you're the one who has to close Undertale and go into Game. The "next world" is a metaphor for another game. The multiverse is an in-universe metaphor for other Games you have on Steam or your Switch or whathave you. Chara is telling you they'll always be your HUD.

Also Chara doesn't leave you in the void, they erase the world(which allows you to go into a new one) you are only presented with the void if you try to go back to the Undertale world. In which Chara is betrayed and gets the hint you did this for fun and proceeds to chew you out for expecting to find the world you destroyed here.

No it's not a scam or any of that. You are the one who betrays *them* ,

"Um, HOW do I know that Asriel was right? What if I really DID think that the world is kill or be killed? Also, once again, killing the monsters is not the same as killing the humans. It could simply be that I hate monsters and want to protect humanity from them. You know, like those humans who attacked Asriel. Why doesn't Chara consider the possibility that we're just one of them?"

So you're saying you are a psycopath playing Undertale from prison? It's also probably talking from the perspective of people who do pacifist, reset, and do genocide, which is common.

Because Chara thinks you are simply grinding for LOVE. You can't get anymore, so we're done here. On to the next world. Besides there isn't really a reason to protect humanity, the Monsters are behind the barrier, the only thing you'd need to defend is yourself, your point on protecting Humanity by killing Monsters to prevent them from taking anymore SOULs is moot as you don't learn about the concept of taking human souls until you reach  Undyne. Besides, Undertale's story seems to imply Frisk climbed the mountain to commit die.

Undertale Yellow's plotline involves the Justice Soul investigating the dissaperences, they even bring a missing poster with them, and that could be why Justice came here in canon, but that's not what's happening with Frisk.

"Yeah, Chara, you got the sides wrong. Monsters aren't the good guys, the humans are. ..Chara, why'd you just destroy all the humans too?"

What? I don't get what you're trying to say here.

"They CAN'T. They need at least LV19 to take over."

Not a fact.

"With jokes just as bad as Sans'. What if I'm a Papyrus and not a Sans?"

Well that's what happens when Toriel is your mother.

Toriel: "Now, if I were a dog, what breed of dog would I be.

Asgore: "Hmm. I don't know, honey.  What kind of dog would you be?"

Toriel: "I would be..... A MOMERANIAN."

Asgore: "Hohoho! You sure are excited to have this child!

Asgore: "You know, if you keep making jokes like this.... one day...you could end up being a famous, MOMedian.

Toriel: "...Well, I am going back to bed."

Asgore: "Hey!   Come on, Tori!  That one was funny!

Toriel: "Hahaha, I know, I am just teasing you.  Goodnight, dear."

Asgore: "Goodnight, honey."

I can just imagine Toriel and Chara having back to back punage like Toriel and Sans would probably be having nowadays.

"Those are snarky/sarcastic remarks. Also like Sans."

Yep, they can be quite judgemental. Explains why they criticized Asriel's crying like a baby back during the tape.

I wonder if Sans and them would get along. Nobody explores that, only as worst enemies.

"Yeah, you have some EXP to grind. It's too bad Frisk can't just steal the presents:They steal a lot of other stuff (from shops)."

Maybe Chara physically will not let them, slapping Frisk's hand with Frisk's other hand.

" *slap* No! Bad!"

"This is more true than even you think."

Uh, I know this. Lol.

"They know Sans wouldn't spare you. Also, perhaps only you could have thought of the clever strategy of moving the box to attack Sans on his own turn, and you needed to get Chara into the right situation for them to make the final strike."

No they don't. Chara can only know what you know, and what they know, that moment of sparing was just as unexpected for them as it was for you. And they let you do what you want with no interfearence.

They don't say "Do what you always do" or "Don't fall for it." or "Are you seriously considering this?" Nope, just "Sans is sparing you." ...Now what, my guide?

Chara killed Sans out of impatience, this fight has gone on LONG ENOUGH! *slash*

The player wishes they could do that the moment they saw him dodge after dying a million times before making it to the end. And we're shocked when it comes true.

"This is probably true. In fact, there is no MERCY button at all in Asgore's "fight", so even if we had control, we wouldn't be able to spare him-Just kill him."

Yep. Chara:  "He's my dad, I'll put him down." "Oh hey, Asriel not only did you steal our EXP, but as you've noticed, I've got a new friend now who won't betray me (lol, they don't see it coming!) so, bye!"

"..Um, WHAT? Um, no. Frisk's kill count doesn't go up from Sans. Frisk's LOVE does, but that's because of their massive participation in the fight. Chara did three kills, Frisk did all the rest, and there is no sharing of kills."

What? It never said the Kills were shared it said the LOVE and EXP from their kills were shared between them.

"Chara shows up!"

"Indeed, they worked together to do this."

Right, you are a great partner. = )

"This is a new step, though. Until now, we've only been killing monsters. Perhaps this is why when we choose no, they don't think we're going against our nature, and don't comment on this at all, instead just asking when WE were in control."

What? Yes they do. They are confused. "No? ...  Hmm.   Interesting" (internal rage) "You must be confused. (suddenly external) SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL!"

Our betrayal makes them angry and they decide to do it anyways, they don't need your approval anymore! They've already been completely turned, after all.

"They want to see what you think first. But also, if you choose yes, their plan to take your SOUL afterwards is that much more likely to succeed, since it relies on getting you to think that YOU are responsible for the world's destruction."

Uh.. no. That's not part of their plan, it's something they come up with on the spot.

"...

Perhaps.

We can reach a comrpromise. "

Their plan, what they thought was both our plans, was to go to the next world, the next game, and keep going after they erase this one. But you, by coming back and clicking Undertale again after they closed it, shows them that this was never your plan, you just want to mess around with this world, and they proceed to scold you about how you're the one who destroyed it and that there are perminant concequences.

"Why did they blame themselves and not Asriel?"

I'd say it's because they would never assume outright their beloved brother did this to hurt them, they've been family for so long.

They don't know if what Asriel did was right or what they were trying to do was right. They need an example.

It's kind of like the Flowey dialogue.

"I honestly don't know anymore. Prove to me.   Prove to me you're strong enough to survive."

"And then they put you in a void and refuse to ACTUALLY take you to the next to do more killing. Why?"

Again, you're confused. YOU take THEM to the next world, you could say they closed the game so you'd open another. The void exists because Undertale has been erased. And Chara themselves asks you what you are looking for(if you chose no to above concequences), we destroyed the world, dummy! When you open up Undertale again.

"No, this is because the SAVE originally belonged to Chara, and because we named Chara. Chara is bound to us, but their stats are not depending on Frisk's stats."

Their Stats are on the SAVE, the owner of the SAVE gets their stats on the SAVE, this is seen when Flowey takes control of the SAVE.


 * glitchy once upon a time in the background, a save file appears in a void.

FLOWEY LV:9999  Time: 99999

"myworld"

"Um, what? No, we DID do it for power! Come on, Chara, I want that next world!"

By coming back to Undertale you proved to Chara you did not do it for Power, but for fun, and you want your toyland back. You did not go to the next world.

"No, I wanted not to destroy the world, but to defend it. Monsters and humans are opposing sides, and I, as a human, naturally fought the human side."

Ha, nah, you were just a Psyco, I mean Toriel wanted to protect you, Sans tried to be friends with you, Papyrus wanted to teach you to be good. Asgore wanted to settle this over tea instead of fightng.

"Yes, this is in fact the WORLD getting destroyed. The game only closes for the same reason why it did when Flowey crashed the game-Chara also took away S/L/R from us, ensuring that we can't just LOAD to bring the world back. (Fun fact:Chara recreates the world by using a "True" Reset.)"

Again, WE never has the S/L/R,  "SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL?" this is what they mean. It's Chara's save file. Besides, what reason would you have to reload a dead world?

Yep, a true reset.

"I'd wait either way, I'm trapped in the void. I'm looking for YOU, Chara. I want you to take me to the next world!"

You are misguided. You did not understand the metaphor. Lol.

"Correct. And taking that SOUL was their plan."

It was not. They came up with it on the spot.

"LOL this is ridiculous! If you say no, they say that you have to stay there for all eternity! That's right, stay in the void for all eternity! No next world for you, no nothing! You're pretty much FORCED to give it away!"

The metaphor ->

Your head.

"Oh no, it IS our SOUL, because we ARE Frisk."

Eh.

"LOL, they kill everyone else. They could have ended it just by killing FRISK, not literally everyone else and ruining their own friends' life! No, this was Chara's plan from the BEGINNING! They wanted to be able to breach the barrier, and brutally kill the humans there.. Their plan is, and always was, to eradicate humanity. The addition here is that now they hate monsters, and are evil and sadistic now. This is the REAL reason why they don't take you to the next world, they hate humans and monsters in their world, but having never been to other worlds, they have no reason to hate them. (Yeah, my POV has changed a bit:Chara's an anti-villain.)"

Lol they aren't Chara's friends, they're your friends. Well, not really, you just killed them a timeline ago, they're just your playthings, Chara makes sure you don't get shiny new toys after you broke your old ones. You don't deserve them.

No. And coming up is a post dealing with this flawed viewpoint.

They do not hate monsters. You made them evil and sadistic.

You go take them to the next world. No.

( Hope it changes some more! )

"Your perverted sentimentality is to keep on bringing the world back to destroy it once again. If you want it destroyed, just KEEP IT DESTROYED! Saying "no" to destroying the world gives us dialogue saying that "this is the feeling I spoke of."."

Exactly. You play with a world you keep killing.

"So that they can fulfill their revenge on humanity, of course!!"

No.

"They have the power to literally destroy the world, I'm pretty sure they'd do well against humans. They're not a human themselves anymore, if they were, they couldn't take your SOUL-Humans cannot absorb other human SOULs. No, they're something else entirely-A demon. The angel of death from the prophecy."

This power is simply DT's power over the Universe, it's not attack power but time power. Chara can reverse a timeline, or destroy it altogether. As Sans says. "you'll keep on consuming timelines over and over until-"

No, they're Soulless, and Soulless beings can absorb both Human and Monster souls, they are a vessel, just like the vessel Alphys planned to use to keep the Monster Souls safe which ended up being Flowey. Flowey had Asriel's essense, a Monster should not be able to absorb a Monster Soul, but because he didn't have a soul he was able to absorb every monster's SOULs along with the Human SOULs to become God Asriel. Chara’s essence could theoretically do the same.

The Angel prophesy applies to the Human who falls.

"But they don't want JUST humanity dead anymore, they want EVERYONE dead!"

Chara could still gain love and do that in their new body. Chara with DT could fight God Asgore like we fight God Asriel, maybe emotionally manipulate them abit, convince him to give back his power (in fact he probably wouldn't keep it after the deed was done, so they could just kill normal Asgore.) and kill him. Now everyone is dead.

"They wanted humanity to suffer through it. To meet a suffering end. Remember, they're sadistic like that."

Eh, not really, they enjoy death but they actually want you to kill people quickly, they don't go the "torture them" route. Besides, what's a worse way to go, knowing you're going to die by being gored, or going without warning?

"Um, I am. *brings everyone back to life.* See?"

No, you can't do that. Remember, Chara has the save file, you are powerless to return the world and are at Chara's mercy. (Unless you hack i guess.)

"I don't consider hacking like that as canon. And what's all the stuff before then?"

Good, I wouldn't either. What do you mean? What stuff?

PHEW that was a long one.