Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-29788596-20160906011125/@comment-33883848-20200214104021

"For the exact same reason why they hate humanity as a society! It's as simple as that!"

Then again, what are the aspects of humanity that could led Chara to want to destroy humanity as a whole? Its easy to understand why they would grow hating humanity for personal reasons, but i dont see any reason why they would want to destroy it. To kill every child and baby and people who havent done anything wrong yet.

'But doesn't EVERY path other than Genocide lead to Frisk's freedom? Or do you think Frisk really didn't cross the Barrier in Neutral after all?'

Corelation =/= causation

'We don't, which is why I considered the alternative where it is possible to save them, though after the Pacifist Ending, in the first place.'

Then why did you mention this trope at all if theres no evidemces thats there?

'I'm giving you all many different possibilities. They all point to the same conclusion, but you get to pick which path to take.'

'They all point to the same colclusion' thats the problem. You refuse to akowledge any other possibilities as if it was confirmed that Chara destroy humanity in souless endings

'So after the Genocide Run, Chara crosses the Moral Event Horizon?'

I didnt say that.

'They can't.'

1. Evidences?

2. Why even high lv cant let them to take over?

3. What about the souless runs where they already posses Frisk's soul and thus can take over them?

'First off:Chara can't possess Frisk at all without their SOUL.'

But they do. In genocide run, they make a creepy face to Flowey, unlock the chains by themselves " i unlocked the chains" and kill Flowey and Asgore and Sans.

"Did I say they did it in Frisk's body? No, I didn't."

The...what??!!! Where do they go then when they deal the final strike to Sans? Why do they start the fight agaisnt Asgore while being in frisk body?

.

"We actually know that it wasn't Frisk's body that kills Sans, because the final attacks are always a slash, no matter the weapons Frisk holds. Yet, all of Frisk's attacks use their weapon in question (while we do see two slash attacks, it could be that Frisk's turn really was used up, and Chara had to make the first swing as well, meaning they both came from Chara.)"

But the first smash was made by the player, the second one was out of out control, meaning that the first one was made by Frisk as they are our controlable character. You're digging to deep into this...

And how could Chara makes a smash while they dont have any weapon that makes a smash?

"I mean, Frisk did literally help give Chara exactly what they wanted, and they only call Frisk a good partner if they agree to erase the world, which is exactly what Chara wants to happen."

Anyway, that shows that Chara can get along with Frisk in some cirtances and thus they could get along with them if Frusk help them with "guidance", if they guide them.

Also there's literally no evidences that Frisk is giving what Chara wants in genocide run.

"You're right, it doesn't make sense. Yet they do it anyway. The only way it would make sense is if they WANT the Genocide Route, and that's why they help. Their love of that route being greater than their hatred of Frisk for being human."

1. I am once again asking you for evidences.

2. That also works the other way arround. Chara's confusion and low self confidence is greater than their hate for Frisk.

3. There's no evidences that Chara hates Frisk and only use them to achieve their goals. In this case, that doesnt makes sence for them to call them a "good partner" thank them for bringing them back from death and tell them that they'll still be together forever despite the fact that Frisk already killed everyone.

"Now, if the plan eventually lead to the destruction of humanity.. Wouldn't that be worth it from the perspective of someone hating humanity? Using one to kill the rest? One enemy is a lot better than 7 billion enemies, especially if you gain that one enemy's SOUL and can thus control them at will."

So one human child soul is enough for Chara to destroy 8 billions humans?

"Now it's your turn to resolve the paradox under the assumption that Chara doesn't want a Genocide Run."

Which paradox?

"...And why not? It was Asriel's decision that got them killed, not theirs."

But they were the one who planned to take 6 human souls in the viallge and bring their human body with them. It was them who put Asriel in danger.

"You say Chara helps you around. Yet Asriel makes it clear that Chara hated humanity. And if they hated humanity (which we know they do), they wouldn't help a human.. unless they had another motivation to do so."

Yes another motivation like guidance?

"That's not the state of mind Flowey was in. Flowey did have a sense of right and wrong, it's just when he tried to feel love and compassion, it just didn't happen. He tried, and tried, so he clearly did know that compassion is a good thing. It's also why he tried to erase himself in the first place, as he didn't want a world without love."

But he did end up seeing killing as the right because of this. Seeing the world as "kill or be killed". Souless people are highly suggestible.

"But then it'd no longer be accidental."

The..what?

"I already told you, they can't take over until they have Frisk's SOUL"

You cant change facts to fit your narrative you know ?.

"The high LV is what gives Chara the ability to destroy the world(s), and thus, everyone with it/them."

They always had this power since they know how to use it and knows that they have it.

"We don't know that. And doesn't Genocide Frisk seem like an exception to this?"

Nope.

"If Frisk dies, Chara dies as well. They are bound by essence, after all. Probably the reason why Chara doesn't kill Frisk at the end of the Genocide Route, actually.."

Frisk's soul still persists after death and thus Chara's essence. And in your narrative, they killed themselves to destroy humanity so i dont think they have any issues with this.

"Who has the button eye?"

I know its the dummy. The first part was about dummy and the second was adressesd directly to Frisk using "you". They are just using the context to make a rhyming poem for Frisk. Chara never uses "you" to describe monsters, "you" always refers to Frisk.

"We do see a memory of Chara, proving they're with us, we see a literal canon narrator, and we can rule out everyone who's not Chara. Not only that, the narrator literally says "It's me, Chara"."

Yes but its based on EVIDENCES, not facts just like the idea that Chara is actually reedemened (if they ever needed any redemption in the first place).

You said that we need to explictly ses that Chara is reedemened but then every theory is wrong as none of them is explictly confirmed.

"Yet you just claim Chara has an arc without even providing evidence such an arc exists! Perhaps Mew lies under that truck after all?"

I did provide you evidences. I said that if they really wanted to destroy humanity they would give the last soul needed for this to Asgore by killing themselves. I said that they make cute poems for Frisk and helps Frisk in every run and gives them descptions for everything they check despite their impatience. All of this shows that Chara is fond of Frisk for some reason.

"In that case, why can't we say that killing the monsters is giving them the "consequences", as they've all tried to kill us at one point or another? Sure, Papyrus decided to spare us, but he still wanted to fight us before!"

Eye for eye =/= justice.

Chara's vision of justice =/= justice.

And we do have consequences for our actions. Take the neutral endings for example. We dont receive any happy ending even if we killed a monster in self defence. Blame Toby fox for this, not me.

"There really are people who kill just for revenge. There's really no reason to state that it's impossible for Chara to be doing this."

And literally kill all citizens who havent done anything to them?.

Regardless anything. Chara isnt the type of person who kills out of feelings. After all, they yell at Frisk for killing everyone again because of their "perverted sentimentality".

"Revenge is not the same thing as "for the evulz". "For the evulz" means they do it because it's evil and they like being evil. And that's what isn't realistic. Actual killing because they think it's justified is a real thing that some people do."

Maybe but it wasnt the point. I said that its a really cliche, lazy motive for a vilain as its overdone in fiction.

'Of course, it's possible to reset as long as the world's not destroyed."

But that doesnt mean Frisk WOULD reset, especially if they already did the souless pacifist run.

"By your hypothesis.. Does Frisk go free in Neutral? If not, then why aren't they free if they crossed the Barrier? (You've stated several times they crossed the Barrier, yet also said they aren't free in Neutral.)"

Tell me when did i say that Frisk does not cross the barrier in neutral runs?. I instead argued that they do but even then, nothing suggests that aanything wrong happened on the surface. Why would Toby not hint anything if anything happened? Unless it did not happen? I argued that they dont even kill Frisks friends and let them live their lives despite not knowing that they're going to reset.

"Really? Where's the Barrier? Show me a Barrier behind Frisk."

Well its behind Frisk but Frisk cant cross it and reach the monster side of the room for some reason..but its clearly shown that Frisk is on the other side of the barrier when they defeat flowey, this same side they reach when the barrier is destroyed in pacifist end. In other words, theres no way for frisk to reach this side unless they crossed the barrier.

"Frisk always answers the phone. Yet they don't here. Sans has to leave a message. It does get to Frisk's phone, though."

And the player (who roleplays as Frisk) somehow receive the message,. I'd say that they were busy and thus their friends left a vocal messsage that Frisk checked latter on. Otherwise, i dont see how that would work. We never see Frisk dropping their phone in the underground, we never even asked them to and Frisk honnestly has no reason to do this especially if they care about their friends.

"And what happened after the phone call? We really have no idea. And since we don't know what Frisk was doing (definitely not answering the phone, but that's all we know), for all we know, Soulless Chara IS killing monsters. (They do in Pacifist, and as you point out, it'd make no sense for them to do it in Pacifist and not Neutral.)"

Of course, they do so in souless pacifist end but not in neutral endings, which doesnt makes sence if Chara is really killing them out if hatred otherwise they would kill them in all runs. Its karma.

"Maybe it's because only monsters can initiate fights? Thus, it's the same reason why they didn't kill any of the non-hostile NPCs?"

The...what? Didnt they ininiate the fight agaisnt Asgore in genocide end? And does that means frisks friends really inniate a fight in souless pacufist end?

You're digging to deep into this..

"Go on, try it! I know you can't here!"-Gerson

He's a shopkeeper.

"We also don't see Toriel and Asgore until close to the end, and we're not arguing they're replaced now, are we?"

But we do see them. But we never see Frisk (i mean, not possesed frisk) in souless pacifist credits. So its POSSIBLE that they been replaced, explaining why Chara posed for the photo with Frisk's friends.

"Flowey at least cared for them enough to help them out. He just can't FEEL that emotion-Doesn't stop him from doing it on an intellectual level. Until, of course, he got bored and started killing."

I dont think that this little "attachment" is enough to stop Chara from killing Frisk's friends for ""greater good"". Similarly to Flowey who cared about Papyrus and the player.

"My definition of hate is "the opposite of love"-Loving someone means you wish good things to happen to them, so hating would mean you wish for BAD things to happen to them."

I used to hate people in my life and while i wished bad things to them, i never tried to kill them.

"What happens when you dislike something STRONGLY? You want nothing to do with it. You don't want it around."

Or you live appart of them.

"And it's quite paradoxical for Chara to care MORE for something they hate than something they don't."

I didnt say that they care, just that hating someone doesnt mean you want to kill them.

"If they're going to kill innocent monsters like it's nothing, why doesn't the same state of mind apply to the humans, which they actually hate?"

Why would they? They are killing frisks friends not because they hate them but because Frisk no longer deserves their happy ending. We have to go through a lot to get this ending. We have to spare everyone, befried everyone etc..And genocide Frisk literally killed 100 monsters thinking that they are above consequences, led the world to its destruction and accted like its not their fault. So i get it why Chara is pissed at Frisk and steal their happy ending. Its a way to show them that they're not above consequences. That you have to deserve your happy ending but that you didnt.

'It's not like we told them to do it:They do it even if we say we don't want the world to get destroyed. Which means they wanted to do it."

Youre jumping to conclusions too quickly. The world was already "pushed" to its destruction by Frisk. Its not like Chara do it because they genuiny wish everyones death but because these are consequences of Frisk's actions. And when Frisk wants to recreate the world and avoid consequences, they prove that they think they are "above consequences". These arent my words but Chara's

"It was you who pushed everything to its edge. It was you who led the world to its destruction. But you cannot accept it, you think you're above consequences"

And then when Frisk proves that they indead think of themselves above consequences, then it's likely that Chara would try to show them that they're not above consequences, by (possibly) killing people Frisk cares the most in souless pacifist end.

Is that cruel?? As heck

Is that understable, especially if we take into consideration Chara's inability to feel love and to understand our soul's feelings