Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-35640811-20180307024503/@comment-27136653-20180326172435

"Fallacy #1:Assumes SOUL power is the same thing as determination without evidence"

I think that has been conclusively proven already. After all, there's nothing but correlation between the two. After all, no one states that Flowey is Asriel either, besides Flowey himself. It could just be a memory trick played on him that would make him think that he was Asriel, and the transformation of him into Asriel could just be the whatever magic reading his state of the mind and turning him into the image he desires.

It was us who concluded that Flowey is Asriel. And conversely, there is much more proof that soul power is DT in the game than that it isn't. Assuming that it is is only logical at this point. I don't know what your problem is. So I may be wrong on this. So what? It's not like I can just ask Toby to confirm or deny this. I've got a model that works, which also simplifies the matter over the one that assumes both are a different thing (so it complies with Occam's razor), so I don't see any problem here.

The geocentric model, albeit wrong, also wasn't throwing us the incorrect results, since people perfected it. But they could at least observe that it's wrong, so obviously, they fought over this. Here however, fighting is pointless. I am sticking to Occam's razor, which has always guided me to the simple and elegant answers. And you should too.

"The "missing" power is still absorbed by Asriel, so no events in the game would have changed. Therefore, this argument is invalid."

Therefore, the human souls, plus Flowey, accounted for 6/7 of the power required in total precisely. That is, if we assume that Flowey's shell really did contribute towards this. Who really knows if it did. If it didn't, then my reasoning applies. If it did, then my reasoning doesn't need to apply, as my reasoning includes that the total amount provided by the monsters was more than one human soul (since it is said that ALMOST all of monsterkind accounts for a single human soul), which is what filled in the missing amount. If Flowey provided it instead AND survived, then there's no problem.

Although I must confess, I had no idea what you really wanted to say here. So I just filled in the blanks, hoping that this is what your point was all about.

"Once you provide evidence that "teenage" was explicitly used"

Why, you didn't read the links I provided either? It is mentioned several times throughout the game that Snowdrake and his friends are teenagers.

"rather than just acting similar to our teenagers, which, by monster lifespan, would probably be like 200 years."

When talking about humans, that's called a mid-life crisis (I hope you appreciate my humor, I am putting tremendeous effort to this reply, because I know this isn't a dead thread yet). Technically, you're correct on that, IF it said that they merely acted like teenagers.

"and the fact that naturally, humans would fall at a steady race"

But it's not impossible for the converse to happen. I suggest you stop pondering this already and simply go with the flow. It's not like Toby will tell us the truth anytime soon... or anytime at all for that matter. We simply cannot build our theories on the assumption that the dates being equally spaced out being more probable than them not being justifies the said theory.

And your version has caused all sorts of problems already, such as, monsters having video cameras two hundred years after being imprisoned. The humans all falling down within a single century isn't probable according to you, but this is? And don't blame this on Gaster. Einstein was also a genius, and he never accomplished anything of such scale. I think you may be simply overestimating the meaning of the word "genius." It's not a synonym for a "cheat code user." Because only a cheat code user would be able to use a Shelby Cobra in the middle ages.

"The last part isn't evidence. It could just mean we're the first human to override his determination."

Ye. My actual argument was the fact that a one full soul of DT was simply not wasted on him. There's no way Alphys just wasted a full human soul on a single flower. The king would be so mad at her, she wouldn't be able to handle it. She was a liar back then already.

Besides, I've just realized. Isn't it implied that the only thing holding the human souls alive is determination? After all, that's its exact definition, the substance that keeps you alive and keeps you motivated. Wasting it all, the human souls would surely die.

"Pretty sure the other humans didn't have red SOULs."

Yeah. I'm pretty sure too. And I don't know why you suddenly brought the topic of soul traits up.

"Flowey was in control before a single human, outside of Chara, fell underground and got captured."

That premise contains a logical fallacy. I don't know how you even came up with it, but... I certainly didn't. So I have no clue what you're trying to do here.

"Besides, red SOULs shatter, as proven by Frisk."

Souls in general shatter. That's what's been proven. You haven't proven the exclusivity of the red souls in this regard yet. Unless that wasn't your point. In which case, carry on. (Personally, I think that if one soul type is capable of shattering, then all are. After all, nothing said otherwise, so I think so, since it's a logical conclusion. And it's what most people assumed already anyways.)