Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180901135513

"Oh, that's what you meant. Well, if the intro says that, and later we learn otherwise, I say the intro was wrong, due to the order in which the information was presented to us. If it was the other way around, I think I'd say the battle was indeed long."

No, you were closer to correct the first time. Long BATTLE versus hardly a WAR is no contradiction, once you realize that a battle and a war aren't quite the same thing. But, the book saying monsters are made of love, hope, and compassion, is DIRECTLY contradicted by the underground being devoid of hope.. And nothing happening to the monster SOULs.

"Yes, that's what I agree with. But if we're talking about any kind of hope, we could say that hope kept him alive. Even though there were many things he gave up upon, something was still giving him hope."

Or he just didn't want to die. Kind of like with Flowey, but he realized this BEFORE he tried to kill himself.

"We're talking about humans. They work a bit differently."

Then read the second sentence of that quote, not just the first.

"It doesn't exist on the surface... at least not while the barrier is up."

Just as I suspected. Therefore, it's pretty clear the power (or at least the ability to use it) originated in the Underground. Sometime after the war...

"Then it was healing. We did get healed a few times."

Once by Toriel, and no-hit everything in Snowdin and beyond, or just sleep at the inn.

Besides, the fact is, we shouldn't even maintain the power for long enough to get to Toriel's house when that happens, if the power exists on the Surface at that point in time. But if it only exists in the underground, this makes perfect sense-It's not like you really have any competitor humans around.

"The only people who can retain memories are Flowey and our friends. Flowey, of course, is the best at it."

They don't have to be your friends, though.

"Why are you looking at me like you've seen a ghost? Do you know something that I do not?"-Toriel, after you killed her. (and reset afterwards)

"I think it has been there even before, since where else would it be otherwise, capable of communicating with our essence? (I mean, either it was rooted in the brain, or in the soul; either way, it had to be connected to the central nervous system somehow.)"

They're more than likely some kind of ghost, having died once before, and revived without a usable vessel. Because of this, they're attached to Frisk, being a source of determination. They are mentally linked, somehow, though-So perhaps this is the case-After all, at around LV19, Chara starts to take control, being the one to deal the final blow on Sans, killing Asgore, and killing Flowey.. Without taking your SOUL first. It seems they were just powerless before, and now that they have your SOUL, well.. That's pretty much giving up control to them. They still let you do your thing until the end, though..

This implies that Chara still remembers even if you didn't give up your SOUL, but there's nothing indicating that they can't, so I don't see this as a problem.

"Plural: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6gS2LPXdIc5NkJZZEFvVFFXYjA/view"

Maybe more than one Jerry exists?

"Green magic is chromatic magic, just like the soul modes. We don't see all monsters casting it, just like we don't see all monsters using orange or cyan magic."

Should you really expect most monsters to use magic that's the least effective at getting what they want? (killing you, that is.) Here's my take on the whole ordeal..

Orange magic damages still things, blue magic damages moving things. If you combine them, you get white magic. So, why do monsters use blue and orange magic? Because they can make more bullets that way (specifically, twice as many), using the same amount of magic. But, not all monsters are proficient enough that they could use that many bullets, and thus, they default to just using white.

Green magic heals you. What's the point in healing your enemy in a battle?

"Which would go against what Toby had in mind, that sparing them is the only way to win. You don't see him complaining when people praise the true pacifist ending and don't kill the characters he created."

You don't see him complaining when people do the Genocide Route and kill the characters:Clearly, Genocide is the one true ending! /s

(He complained about the name, not the run itself. And maybe it's because it was made as a Holocaust joke? There are rumors about that, maybe they're true?)

"Sure, but monsters lose HP when they get hurt like us. Humans lose HP only when attacked by magic. So once again, they are accustomed to their attacks not dealing damage if they do not wish to harm them, but suddenly, our soul doesn't ignore that attack and gets hurt by it nonetheless. So they do know about HP, but they don't realize their attacks have been hurting us, most likely since they didn't bother to check, since they're used to them not dealing damage. Or maybe they expect harm to get shown, but that's not the case, since we're human - soul scars don't just get projected outwards like that. Like, once again, they confuse us for a monster."

So they're not even looking at the SOUL they're attacking? Really? Oh, and by the way, monster SOULs CAN be harmed by white magic. Flowey destroyed Asgore's SOUL with his white pellets.

Do monsters see each other's SOULs leave the body? If they don't, shouldn't the fact that ours does give them a revelation? They aim for our SOUL, so they clearly know about this. And if they do see each other's SOULs leave the body, why don't we see it, and why can't we attack their SOUL directly? And the former still applies:Our SOUL isn't white-Shouldn't that be a dead giveaway?

If Napstablook's demonstration of monster HP shows anything, it's that monster HP is affected by more than just physical attacks..

"And Camila Cuevas has her Glitchtale, where she explores a world of humans dominated by magic."

As long as they're not representing themselves through magic, it's fine.

"Heck, she even believes some monsters escaped the war."

Betty's not a monster-And I don't see anything in the series that suggests that other monsters escaped the war.

"It's all about different interpretations. The wizards were a third race in my interpretation, they saved the monsters from extinction by this act. And that's because they created them... and also gave humans souls. Before they came, souls didn't even exist yet."

So in prehistoric times, there was no lope, hope, and compassion anywhere? Everyone was just like Flowey?

...Why hasn't everyone died before the monsters and SOULs were created? Where were the wizards before then? Why did they specifically design monsters with the ability to absorb human SOULs? Are they against the human race? Are they evil?

"Because he's not insane and simply disliked the term."

..I don't see why not being insane makes you object to that.. I'll just go with the second part of what you said.

"Nothing ever objected against this information, so it's a rule."

..The underground was devoid of hope. There's your objection.

"Because why else would Toby put it into the game? He never had in mind a detective hunt for information like Scott. Not if he's never gonna answer the questions."

But he DID give enough hints to figure it out. He's never going to answer questions about Gaster, unless it's in his shrouded in darkness plans, after all. Stop using Toby as evidence, or as a strawman. Besides, I'll ask that question right back to you-Why did he put in the line about the entire underground being devoid of hope? Why specifically devoid of hope, rather than just saddened?

"And what about your rules that dictate what falls above and under this line? What if something can be both interpreted as meta and non-meta? Such bridges are often the conficting points. If turns are real, then buttons and text are real, and therefore all text in the game is real, meaning the intro and outro are real too, meaning code is real, meaning only the stuff we see on screen exists."

The rule is simple:Do the characters explicitly mention or abuse them? If not, it's meta and not canon. Flowey addresses Chara-Never once was a player explcility mentioned. He said Chara, so he means Chara. If it's possible to interpret the exact lines in a non-meta way, without changing what the text says then we are to use the non-meta interpretation. So if we say Flowey's talking to Chara, well, we're not changing the text at all. The entire text, as it is, can stand as a message to Chara. Now, Sans flat-out mentions it won't be your turn, ever, since he's doing nothing. Pretty clear indicator of turns to me. You might go on and say he's just going to keep dodging, and there's nothing about turns, but that would involve flat-out changing the text:He said turns, he means turns. So, if you can show how A-Sans was able to make you unable to attack by just doing nothing, and B-How the entire text of his battle, as it is written (don't change a single word of what he says-This is VERY important!), can make sense without there actually being turns, THEN I'll change my view on turns. Go on, try it!

Now do you understand?

"I always consider these conflicting points to take a chronological order. So if the intro is contradicted, the new information takes precedence. And if there was an outro that foreshadowed that this new in-canon information may not have been entirely accurate, I will then believe the outro."

I see.

Now, let's take a look at the chronological link of information here. In the Snowdin library is the books. In New Home, a possible outro, is where we learn that the underground was devoid of hope. So, using that very reasoning, which side takes precedence? New Home, of course, being placed later in the timeline! The book wasn't accurate!

"It's often the author pulling a plot twist (even a minor one counts). So why disregard it and stubbornly stick to his original claims? Unless they were trolling us, which should be more or less obvious most of the time."

Poe's law exists, Tsskyx. Don't forget about that.

Though the fact that what contradicts the book is not the intro at all, but New Home really says something about all of this.

"And as I said, Asgore's action was a metaphor."

And as I said, there's a difference between something metaphorically happened, and flat-out being unable to make an action using that button.

"And as for Sans, he's just doing what no one else is doing - giving you time to breathe. I'd argue those others that wanted you dead had their reasons for giving you these "moments to breathe", like, Undyne challenging herself, the Dogi being confused, RGs being preoccupied with themselves, Asgore doing it on purpose, etc."

Try eating some Instant Noodles. But don't do it dry, waste a lot of time cooking them. :3

"And lastly, Sans's final turn, well... The outcome of that turn is always his death. So maybe, he had nothing else and was exhausted, so he tried to weird us out, to get some more time and gather strength for dodging, perhaps even teleporting away."

And why did it WORK?

"If he take his battle at a face value, we would literally have to take all the other meta things at a face value too."

Only the ones that are abused and mentioned by the characters themselves.

"Why argue that Flowey mentioned Chara watching, when Toby's intention was to point at us, a meta joke?"

Stop using Toby. Look at the game, and the game only. Take Toby out of the equation, and look at the game, as it stands ON ITS OWN. Then, things will make a lot more sense. Now, Flowey really didn't know WHO was watching, just that there probably was someone. That doesn't imply a player, and it doesn't imply Chara. But, who do we know for a fact is watching? Chara's with us for the duration of the run. So it's best to say it was about them. Seeing as Flowey thought FRISK was Chara, he'd have no idea who the narrator is. Probably just some sicko who likes to just watch the Genocide happen. Interestingly, this happens just before the Sans fight, which is the first time that Chara acts on their own. Coincidence?

"Similarly, why say that turns are real as Toby wanted it, instead of arguing with the above?"

Because Sans flat-out mentioned turned, that's why.

"What is what?"

The actual act of "suppressing them". What is it, how does it work, why isn't that actually getting rid of them.. (Not how to tell the difference, but what creates it in the first place.)

"I don't. Besides, a human could refuse to cooperate with the monster, if they were to absorb their soul, just like Asriel did with Chara."

Not every human knows that, and not every human would even want that-Someone might be fine with that, since they'll be gaining more power as well for every SOUL taken. Humans can be megalomaniacs too-Not just monsters. I believe I've said before that BOTH races have their megalomaniacs. I've emphasized the "not just humans" more, yes, but it's just that. Not JUST humans. Sure, monsters aren't perfect angels, but humans aren't either! (If I DID say humans were perfect, just after saying the monsters shouldn't claim they were, would that be ironic AND hypocritical, or just the latter? ..Either way, I'm not making that claim. They're both equally flawed. It's just one has the power to take over the world with SOUL absorption, and the other doesn't. And power corrupts.)

"Such a conflicted beast would be easy to take down. The chance doesn't justify denying someone their freedom. They wanted to execute Eren for that same reason in Attack on Titan, for being "dangerous"."

Hey, he flat-out swore to eliminate all of the Titans, pretty sure that means the Titans were justified in that manner.. Well, they would be, if they didn't start the conflict in the first place by eating his mother for no good reason. Basically, the only reason why they're not justified in wanting to execute Eren is because they are in fact a race of tyranny who started the conflict by eating humans to begin with. They're the dangerous ones.

"Why not just accept that monsters ARE filled with love, hope and compassion? Then, we could settle on a simple "trust"."

As I said, the narration in New Home debunks that. And sooner or later, one of the THOUSANDS of monsters is going to become evil.

"I have already explained that human souls are used as a metric, so they most likely are an exception and their DT doesn't fluctuate."

They are indeed used as a metric. Because their SOUL power is the same. Asriel proves there's a DT fluctuation, and across the game before then, there's evidence that SOUL power does NOT fluctuate. How can we possibly resolve this contradiction? ..Why not just say they're two different things?

"We're talking about a game here, dude ._."

I was talking about by its canon. Stop going meta.

"I know it too. An experiment to make literally everything canon, resulting in a great deal of meta."

According to the Kickstarter, he only mentioned major concepts such as SAVEs and such being canon. Turns is a major game mechanic too, so that could fit in, but he mentioned it being an actual part of a living world-Not a bunch of code, which a canon player would imply.

"They have to. When you do something the viewer may not understand, you explain it. I too got incredibly confused at first when I started reading Homestuck exactly because of this. In this case, we got no explanation and very little addressing. So the existence of this stuff is questionable to me."

And what do you know, Toby worked on both of those!

And we're all familiar with turns-We've played RPGs before. We're not familiar with them being canon, but Sans flat-out addresses this in his battle, even explaining his methods:If he does nothing, his turn never ends, so you can't do anything-It's his turn, and it will stay that way forever. Anyone who's familiar with and tried to make use of turns from other RPGs should understand this. So..

"The funny thing is, you can jump between the buttons, but cannot jump between the box and the buttons."

You can in ITEM. You can't when it's the monster's turn, which means it has something to do with that. And when it's your turn, you have no reason to randomly jump to the box.

"Sure, you could say that the box strips you of jumping and makes you "crawl" instead, but such rule is brand new. With the HUD, we are creating so many brand new rules, I feel like this system is turning into a metaphor for the geocentric model of the solar system, where absolute precision can be reached just by employing an arbitrary amount of epicycles."

Geocentricism started with an assumption. "Hey, it LOOKS like everything revolves around us, so it does!" What, did some divine higher entity say it was? Did anyone make USE of that, in a way that wouldn't be possible under a heliocentric model? Oh wait, we lifted off into space, and now we've seen for ourselves that the Earth is not still. The rotation of the Earth can in fact be experimentally proven:With a Foucault pendulum. And evidence for geocentrism? ..Zero.

"And similarly, here we add an arbitrary amount of rules to account for all the anomalies the HUD is producing and voila, done. Totally ignoring that the HUD is simply incompatible with the overworld, and there is no way to explain it with the overworld rules. Instead, we must resort to arguments such as, "the buttons pop up 'just because' "."

And in your case, you arbitrarily change lines of dialogue to account for the evidence for the HUD, and viola, done:Totally ignoring that Sans flat-out mentioned turns, abused the matter, Gerson making it clear you can't attack him, and so on, and there is no way to explain the text in a no-HUD world. Instead, we must resort to arguments such as, "he said this, but he actually didn't, and said something completely different."

..Look, the main thing about the HUD is the turn-based combat. That's the only real difference between the overworld and the battle screen:We've already shown that the world DOESN'T turn black and white:It stays as it was. And I've shown that this isn't some breaking of simultaneity, it's just you can't attack if you can't reach the buttons. And somehow, the box is in between the buttons and the monster. ..Maybe that has something to do with why acting in this battle gets you inside the box.

"I am starting to have doubts about that too. It would seem more logical to leave the rest of the story for the fanbase, truly. I don't think he can produce anything better than it at this point."

Then what's wrong with making sense of the canon he's put down so far?

"Err... why?"

Now that I've seen the quote taken out of context, I can see why you'd be confused. Perhaps you thought I meant Flowey shouldn't have had the power at all, and Frisk falling should have given it to him.

You see, my reasoning was simple. If the power existed on the Surface, then Frisk should have overridden Flowey's determination far before they actually fell into the Underground. Flowey shouldn't have had the power for all this time until Frisk fell underground to take it away.

But, if it was exclusive to the Underground, it makes perfect sense..