Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20181123023529/@comment-26006155-20181202232923

Hello Ambassador, sorry for my delayed response, but I’ve got a lot to read, and coming up with in-depth responses like this requires a lot of time and energy.

Starting 3 posts back with #73:

I just came up with a new argument for why Asriel’s own soul, the 7th one you save, had to be Chara’s.

After you save Asriel, he mentions how he can feel the compassion of all the other monsters radiating inside him. Yet God of Hyperdeath Asriel was in this same situation, filled with the love of all the monster SOULs in the Underground (minus Napstablook and Mettaton)... and it didn’t effect him. Hyperdeath Asriel should have already been brimming with 2nd-hand compassion.. But he clearly wasn’t.

Asriel can’t feel compassion.. Until his own soul is healed. Hyperdeath Asriel didn’t feel anything when you saved your six friends, but the moment the 7th soul is touched HA feels it immediately. So you can’t get compassion second-hand. Or at least, second-hand compassion doesn’t affect someone who can’t feel it. Frisk is directly healing Asriel’s own soul at the end.

As for SOULs being fused into one.. I don’t know. “SOUL” is probably another misleading acronym like LOVE, and until we learn what it actually means there are going to be unanswered questions.

About Undyne and Determination: Undyne might declare at the end of her neutral fight that she will not die.. But she does die, and turn to dust, after melting a bit. Undyne also doesn’t seem to have any of the Save and Load powers that time-traveling Sans and Flowey possess, nor the ability to remember things that happened in previous lives. While Determination might be a type of power that comes from human souls, the ability to rewind time and remember previous Saves seems to require the power of an actual human SOUL, not its residue.

--

I think I’m starting to see what you’re saying about Asriel reverting to Flowey form. We see his monologue (found here: https://youtu.be/tI0Pb_z4HSU ) after getting The End from the True Pacifist Ending, but not before hitting “True Reset” in the title screen. This might imply that Asriel returns to Flowey form before we reset. Meaning he must have faded.

But if we go back into that very The End save, we still can go back to the beginning and find boss monster kid Asriel at the beginning. So there seems to be a paradox at work. We don’t actually see Flowey again, IN GAME, until hitting True Reset, which returns Asriel to Flowey form as well as blinking The Barrier back into existence.

How is Flowey able to break the 4th wall here again? Well, Flowey himself mentions that the power we planned to use to reset everyone, to erase all their memories and start over again.. Was EXACTLY the same power he planned to use. And if he literally has Chara’s soul, OUR soul, that makes perfect sense.

Flowey still has his compassion in this scene, though. He’s worried that our meddling will give Frisk (who isn’t us) a bad ending, along with everyone else. So he still has the soul we healed in the Hyperdeath fight.

Why does he show up was Flowey here, rather than Asriel? I don’t know. Perhaps talking directly to the player out of the game is different from talking to Frisk in-game, a different plane of reality. I still don’t see why Asriel, who’s achieved his boss monster kid form again, would have to fade now that he has a more powerful human soul inside him, when he had that monster form earlier with a much weaker boss monster soul.

I remember that Jacksepticeye was confused in his playthrough because he thought he’d bought The Mystery Key to get into Napstablook’s cousin’s house, except that he hadn’t had the gold at the time, and there was no way to check whether The Mystery Key was actually in his inventory or not. Frisk has a keychain, and there are keys on it, but the game doesn’t let us actually look at it. Which is very strange and inconvenient for an RPG. Just as strange as it is that Undertale reminds us constantly that Sans can teleport.. But makes a point of NEVER letting us actually see what it looks like when he does.

Details that the mystery narrator inexplicably leaves out can be clues just as powerful as the details they leave in. And when something we ought to know is hidden from our sight.. One has to ask why this was done, and what importance this information might have had.

-

Only a SOUL can generate more Determination. I can accept that perhaps only a shard of Chara’s soul resides in Flowey, and the rest was scattered to other flowers, along with Asriel's’ dust, and that part of this compassion-less essence is what clung to Frisk when he fell down, and tried to take him over. And we already have Gaster still having a soul after being shattered into pieces across time and space. But Flowey wouldn’t be able to recharge his Determination, or Save and Load his game, unless there was part of a real human soul inside him. And I still believe its lack of compassion marks this soul shard as one belonging to Chara, like an ID tag.

-

Response to #76:

You don’t have to convince me about the importance of finding a solution that fits all the evidence. It’s something I often remind others of.

Artists frequently have a point they want to make, but it’s much more powerful if the reader/player comes to this conclusion on their own. So the artist creates a Rube Goldberg Machine full of seemingly mindless complexity, which, if all of its operations are followed correctly, leads to the point they were trying to make.

Any good mystery will have all the clues within it necessary to solving it. Yet it must also hide those clues as well as possible, and do everything in its power to try and throw off any potential sleuths with misleading assumptions and red herrings. So these essential clues will exist only as little details.

This is why Sir Arthur Conan Doyle says “There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact”. And why the new movies say “The small details are always the most important”. (movie clip: https://youtu.be/kn-i_1L9yh0 ) In a mystery that a human has deliberately crafted to be confounding, these little details that try to pose as insignificant will often carry the most powerful information.

This is why I’m not a huge fan of using Occam’s Razor, a tool usually reserved for scientific research, in solving a Mystery. Occam’s Razor will do everything possible to cut out the least likely possibilities in a story. And yet these remote possibilities that nobody expects going in will often contain the most amazing of stories, the very sort of places a good mystery writer will hide their most valuable treasure. While it can be a useful tool at times, Occam’s Razor should not be consider the end-all-be-all of problem solving tools in this instance. Occam’s Razor can work.. But only if you’ve vigilant enough to preserve the importance of the smallest details, instead of discarding them as trivial, and force this terrifying lightsaber to accept a complex result.

An epic mystery is not going to have a simple solution. The very reason people remember Murder on the Orient Express is because of its narratively powerful yet *INCREDIBLY IMPROBABLE* stinger at the end. I would not expect less from Undertale, Steven Universe, or FNAF.

--

Response to #78: About using Probability as a tool for theorizing.

Granted, calculating the probability of something being true is super subjective, and requires a lot of creative thought. I’ll try to describe my process as well as I can.

Remember when I mentioned how Doctor Strange viewed thousands of potential futures in Infinity War, to locate the single timeline where the heroes actually defeated Thanos? That’s a good analogy for what I do, trying everything in a quest to find a solution that fits all of the seemingly chaotic Rube Goldeberg Machine parts scattered about in the lore.

A complete list of ALL possibilities is impossible. If I wanted to go that route, I could say that Frisk was so exasperated after Sans got away that he stabbed HIMSELF in the forehead, killing himself and giving Chara the EXP for his death. While not technically impossible, the Probability of this stupid result being real is basically Zero.

So, to avoid becoming lost in endless possibilities and going fucking insane, we need a way to refine the search and steer our focus towards timelines that are more promising.

This is why I keep talking about Story Potential. It might be more art than science, but whenever I come to a fork in the road where two possibilities exist, I ask myself, what type of story would each of them lead to? Which branch would lead to a better story? Which choice would I make, if I was the one writing this?

The first assumption I have to make in these cases is that we’re dealing with a Good Artist. There are plenty of fakers and clueless people who somehow go on to make movies (M. Night Shyamalan’s epic destruction of The Last Airbender is what happens when you put a good story in the hands of someone who doesn’t understand how they work).

But a Good Artist is one who knows their craft, understands what makes a good story, and will naturally gravitate toward the choices that build the best story, no matter how improbable these choices might seem at first.

There’s a huge danger in theorist circles, in that the more complex, powerful, and intricate a story mystery is, the harder it is to tell works of genius apart from garbage.

The more complex a mystery is, the harder it is to scratch its surface, and make any headway in solving. At high levels of genius, only a small % of a given fanbase will have a chance at grasping its meaning, and a high % of fans at the bottom will experience frustration, anger, sometimes boiling to the point where they lash out at the work and declare that the reason THEY can’t solve it.. Is because the property was senseless garbage from the beginning!

I’ve had other theorists, even *famous* ones, literally SCREAM IN MY FACE and declare that Steven Universe was utter nonsensical garbage, devoid of moral, sense or reason. That it was unsaveable TRASH that kept spouting random mystical nonsense in the hopes of tricking its loyal fans out of their money.

I think Steven Universe is an amazing show that makes the case that modern religion, characterized by the oppressive, dystopian Era 2 Great Diamond Authority, has lost its sense of understanding and compassion (characterized by the missing Pink Diamond, literally the Heart of the Authority), and is on a path that will eventually destroy itself unless it faces a reality check and learns to adapt to modern sensibilities (ie, letting women be priests, which is why making ALL the gems female, including the Diamonds, is brilliant satire. And allowing same-sex relationships, which gems must engage in in order to fuse, since, again, all of them are female). And I’ve made an epic theory video to prove it: (“Followup to: Rose Quartz Ate Pink Diamond -- https://youtu.be/DADtNXeF0nw )

But few can see what I see. And part of my work is the hope that I’ll tech other theorists the tools I use to solve mysteries, so that great works of art can be better understood, and better supported by their communities.

Anyway, back to The Good Artist Assumption. This is my first, most dangerous assumption in starting a project, assuming that there IS a story to be found to begin with. The only way to really prove this assumption is at the very end when a cohesive story is uncovered, and there’s never a guarantee this is the right assumption until then. So I’m taking a conscious risk in attempting to find a story in this fashion. But part of The Doctor Strange Technique is trying all possibilities to see if they hold weight, and if they do, explore that timeline further to see if more discoveries might be lurking there, waiting to be found.

So I ask myself, ‘if I were the artist writing this, which path would lead to the better story’? And if one path is more promising, I prioritize that path in my search. And if taking this second branch reveals a possibility with even more Story Potential, it increases the Probability that this path is the correct one, and my first choice was on the right track.

A good artist will gravitate towards the best story. So by doing this, I’m basically trying to Reverse Engineer the story, by analyzing the Rube Goldeberg Lore the artist left behind, to try and retrace what the original point they were trying to make was.

As for sources of Probability, they can be anywhere.

When I first began to suspect that Steven’s purpose was to restore Pink Diamond to the Great Diamond Authority, possibly having to die in the process, and that he might be a Jesus analogy, I made good on my promise to my Uncle Joe and finally got around to reading The New Testament. While reading it I noticed all the bizarre alien-like angels had one thing in common: they each had one or more gemstones clearly displayed on their bodies. I can’t look at this now, and not think ‘this is what inspired Rebecca Sugar to make The Gems’. Or that the Four Diamonds are The Four Living Creatures that together make up God. A heartless God is a terrifying prospect indeed. While I have no proof that Rebecca made this connection, it’s definitely a huge boost to the probability that Steven Universe is saying something about religion, and Christianity in particular.

Rewinding the timeline a bit, the reason I covered The Dark Rose Theory first in the original video “Rose Quartz Ate Pink Diamond” ( https://youtu.be/GhHKxsxELdw ) is because it was actually the first incarnation of my theories. Rose Quartz somehow had the powers of Pink Diamond, but how did she get them? At first, I thought she was a gem power vampire, which would stack with some of the dark moments in the series.

But when I took a step back and looked at the big picture, did this dark theme of Rose creating Steven so she could EAT him and gain his human-enhanced powered, did this really fit the overall tone of the show? And I had to admit that it didn’t. That such a dark premise was improbable as a complete answer for the series. And how could Rose be so opposed to shattering gems if she was actively eating them on the side? I had more to find.

So I thought about alternatives. Perhaps Pink was the vampire who stole other gem’s powers, but had a change of heart, and gifted her powers to Rose Quartz so she might save the Earth? This story was more inspiring, and had a greater likelihood of success.

And then Jungle Moon came out, and we actually get to see the diminutive Pink Diamond for the first time, who looks NOTHING like the Titanic standard-diamond-sized foe Garnet recalled in her flashback in Gemcation. A small off-color diamond (a massive embarrassment to the perfection-obsessed Great Diamond Authority) with a five-sided gem was somehow transformed into a giant standard-sized diamond with a FOUR-sided gem. Suddenly, I got the idea that Pink wasn’t a vampire at all, but White Diamond had ordered her to be “fixed” by forcibly fusing other small gems to her diamond core, until she LOOKED like a “perfect” diamond. Now Pink was a victim who basically went through the gem equivalent of Gay Conversion Therapy in a horrific bit of mutilating mad science. Something totally on the mark with modern Christianity.

The current consensus after A Single Pale Rose is that Rose Quartz never actually existed, but was always an alter ego of Pink Diamond from the beginning. I’m still skeptical of this, because gem forms seem to depend entirely on the cut of the gem, and real world rose quartz and pink diamond gems are cut EXACTLY the same way. The are times where “Rose Quartz” acts very differently, once calling Pearl “My Pearl”, which Rebecca herself pointed out was a way an inferior gem would address a superior. I still think there’s more to Pink Diamond’s story, but time will tell.

But this is an example of how my theories have evolved over time based on new evidence, always striving for a solution that has a greater probability of explaining ALL of the scattered bits of lore. My FNAF theories have faced similar evolutions, all the way up to my current project “The Afton Family Horcruxes” (stage 1 narration is done: https://youtu.be/9B3KNy69ogA ). I made a whole series of videos before this, each time getting some things wrong but delving a little deeper, and AFH is the end result of three years of work.

So, considering all possibilities. Prioritizing those that make the best story and explain bits of lore that otherwise could not be explained. Starting with a crude theory and then evolving it over time into something that fits the lore better, and better. It’s like refining a sword by folding the steel again, and again, each time removing some of the impurities and making it less likely to break. And eventually, through determination, one approaches the truth, baby step by bady step.

Although this will be my first Undertale video, I’ve been theorizing about Undertale for a long time. I made my “Secret of Sans” post on Reddit two years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/42s4pk/the_secret_of_sans_undertale_theory_upcoming/ ) Obviously I’ve refined things quite a bit from that time, but my Undertale theories have faced the same process of refinement and evolution as the others.

---

Ambassador, not everyone forgot about Gaster. Sans is carrying weapons with his name on them, and Papyrus is hinted to also have a Gaster Blaster in some of his updated dialog. Sans probably doesn’t volunteer info about Gaster because 1) It never came up 2) It’s an incredibly painful subject for him, when an old friend turned heel.

Do we have proof there was a previous king in the Underground? It looks like Asgore in the title sequence, and Asgore is confirmed to be immortal as long as he and Tori don’t have a kid. While any previous Kind would have likely been another Boss Monster like Asgore, Asgore’s trident looks exactly the same as from the intro, and there’s no mention of another king anywhere that I’ve seen.

I’ve learned more about The Statue in Waterfall. In a phone call, Undyne says it’s ancient, nobody remembers how it go there. So it’s definitely not the MTT memorial statue that was replaced to make room for Mettaton’s water-puking effigy.

We know the MTT memorial fountain was made during 201X, and that Chara arrived AT THE END of 201X. And Chara grew up with Asriel for some time. It’s very *probable* that the memorial fountain was made before Chara even fell into the Underground, or at least within a few days. It was certainly made before Chara and Asriel died together.

So the original MTT fountain wasn’t a tribute to Asriel or Chara. And it wasn’t a tribute to Toriel because she left after Asriel and Chara died, and while this state was replaced last week, few people in the underground even remember what Queen Toriel looks like. This was a memorial to someone in the royal circles that was once liked.. But either not liked anymore, or not liked to the same degree as the other Royals. And the only person I can find on record as having died somewhere around this time is the former royal scientist: Gaster.

Which means Gaster was doing Determination research before Chara and the recovery of The Six Souls. Which should be impossible.. Unless another source of determination was down there. Which means at least one person back then was a human, if not more.

You do have a point that extreme levels of Determination might have caused the Fallen to completely melt, while only a trace amount could have simply made Undyne stronger. It’s a possibility worth looking into. I still feel that Undyne’s reaction is notably different to the stuff than the Fallen’s though.

While it’s hard to know exactly what Gaster knew when he started doing Determination research, there’s no record of any Amalgamates or Determination-enhanced monsters existing before Alphys took over the lab. It’s true we can’t see all the rooms in the Core, and Gaster may have been very good at hiding secrets, but until we uncover evidence that Gaster was trying to make Super Monsters, instead of just stealing their souls, I still feel there’s a low probability that soul-stealing wasn’t the aim of Gaster’s research.

When I say something is “interesting” I mean it has Story Potential, and is worth being researched. Can you prove to me that the Fallen DID have souls, and that Alphys might have been able to extract them? She never succeeded in getting a single one. While my explanation that the Fallen were already Gaster’s victims is more complex, can you provide a reason that so many different species of monsters of all different ages suddenly fell victim to the very same mysterious ailment, that produces a death-like state, yet prevents the monster bodies from turning to dust? Once again, if Old Age was the reason, the story goes nowhere. But if a Soul Thief is attacking both the Underground and the Ruins, then the story soars to the stars.

I know which one I’d pick, if I were writing it. And if monster bodies can be restored by freeing their souls, like we saw when Flowey vacuumed up all the free monster souls in the Underground, then there’s actually still hope for saving The Fallen if we can just get their souls out of Gaster again!

Regardless of what form Mettaton might have been using (wasn’t he using EX for the first time during the fight?), I find it hard to believe that Muffet could talk to Mettaton, the most famous personality in the Underground, and not know it was him. And that none of her spider horde knew who he was, either. This seems remarkably improbable to me. Their mysterious benefactor was someone she didn’t know, who kept his identity a secret.

Why would Sans load up on useless ketchup before what he must have known was The Ultimate Fight For His Life? And how would Sans know the mechanics of the HUD, unless he had actually been in Frisk’s shoes at one point? I can also explain why Sans was blind to Chara’s second attack, because this was the point where Frisk officially lost control, and since Sans wasn’t a future incarnation of CHARA, he could no longer dodge.

I still have to write The Secret of Sans chapter, it’s coming up, I’m just reviewing EVERYTHING first, because I’m still finding details I’ve forgotten over the last few years.