Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180828183406

"Don't have it, you shouldn't exist according to the book."

The book didn't say that. Read it again.

"Specifically, he wanted to give the monsters false hope."

Not false hope. True hope. The humans still died by his hand, and he still kept the souls.

"Except that "unburdening himself" also means letting the monsters stay underground."

No, someone else would be elected in his stead then.

"Once again, we don't know that, and should just use the game as our source. When it comes to intentions, you could really argue anything."

There's not an endless amount of possibilities. Extend Toby's message onto the surface and you've got an answer.

"You know, nochocolate's evidence?"

No? I don't see any reason why the option should disappear.

Though I wonder, what's "true reset" all about? It doesn't leave any deja vu for anyone, and it only becomes available once the barrier breaks. I don't imagine you can "choose" who can keep his memories and who cannot. It wasn't our choice, it was the game's mechanic, that just happened to align with Flowey's plea for losing his memory of this run.

So, assuming that, the only explanation must lie with the barrier. It's absence lessens the deja vu effect. And we know two things preserve memories: DT and friendship + stamina. Somehow, a leakage happens for big, adult monsters that befriend you, as well as for Flowey. If these are supposed to have the same cause, I'd argue that friendship/caring generates DT. But by that extension, any enthusiasm would. I guess only the type that relates to us, the being that resets, gets preserved.

Maybe the presence of the barrier resonates within other essences too, and not just ours and Chara's, but fragments of others' essences get sent back in time too. I'd call this the "perfect transfer", as opposed to a true reset, where the barrier is missing, resulting in a loss of signal refraction and therefore an absence of essence allocation, and only our essence is preserved - an "imperfect transfer". Though somehow, giving Chara our soul can bypass this.

I have always ignored that line, shrugged it off as allowing their essence to take control of our soul instead, which they do at the end. Maybe, this action results in the weird power that moves essences back in time (I'd call this the "determination aether") grabbing onto their essence too, in addition to Frisk's. Though I am still pondering on the specifics of this act.

Also, the absence of a save file when you reset doesn't really mean anything. Maybe you can die for good when you don't have a saved file, but that's about it.

"The Froggit proof only applies to monsters that can't be immediately spared"

But they can be spared eventually. Why? Also, I bet some of them just want to pick on you, like the Snowdin forest teenager squad.

"Either way, if Toriel can naturally sense your HP values, and it's shown that HP values are visible.. Makes it pretty clear that HP is something for the monsters to know."

We still don't know if other monsters can sense it. For what we know, even those that simply want to help you may accidentally kill you exactly because of this.

"And this is the problem. When we look at the games, we need to look at how they ARE. Under the GAME'S rules."

Sure. Which is why we cannot ignore it when resetting, but can when true resetting and we didn't give our soul to Chara yet.

"Toby DID want this to happen."

He didn't want. But he still planned for it, because he knew people would attempt it. In the game, nothing forced you to do this. In fact, Toby made it so that you would feel guilty for killing monsters. So he didn't.

"When we have evidence to debunk them."

The intro is not undisputable, because nothing said it is. Why do you believe in it so much? It is just an empty narration. Breaking it isn't against the rules, it's called a plot twist.

"To further deconstruct what the perspectives of the "enemies" in an RPG would actually be like? Monsters are very much like humans here."

I don't understand what you're saying. Why would Toby deconstruct his own game's message? The one about monsters being kind, hopeful and hurt by humans? If this was his message, why did he never object to people stating the opposite? Why did he dislike when they started calling the bad route the "genocide?"

To preserve the illusion? To not sound like a dick to the already established fanbase? Now you're speaking like a true conspiratist. You've got no proof for any of your claims, you've simply reversed the narration and said that's what Toby meant, with no proof. Get out.

"More modestly, that book was the only evidence to suggest that no monster could be evil-That there is no reason for them to attack you."

Which is why I'm saying they weren't attacking you, from their perspective.

"Immerse yourself in the world more. See that book. See it not as some mystical out-canon way of describing in-canon lore, but as a real, canon, book."

But that's exactly how I see it. It's a book. Written by someone. Someone that could very well be wrong. But TRY to prove them wrong! You can't. You must resort to meta sources, such as the intro. But if the intro is meta, everything else is too. Yet you choose not to believe that. You think the past did happen, even though it WASN'T coded; you think nothing is preventing Frisk from leaping off a cliff, even though they WERE coded that way.

So if the world isn't meta, why should the intro be? Obviously, the mere fact that it's an INTRO is disproving such an idea, so if we want to construct a new view here, we need to ignore that fact and look only at the information this intro is containing. Just like I've ignored how the HUD works and only considered the buttons, the turns, and everything else, as mere simplifications of the actions that Frisk can take in-game.

The intro is... Chara's memory. Now that we are on an equal level, we can compare a child's memory to a written word. I choose to believe the written word, considering I once thought Santa Claus was real.

"simultaneity doesn't break from the turn rule"

Do you think the real world works like Undertale? It doesn't. Fights somehow happen in a meta space where everything is colored differently, you can't move unless you move your """SOUL""" onto some "buttons" and press "enter"... nothing like using your brain to move your limbs for example. This is what I mean.

"In fact, it CAN'T be, because if it was, the signs would only read lines"

There's a meta space for text, just like there's a meta space for encounters. Problem solved.

"Twilight is shining through the barrier, is it not?"

But never anywhere else. Maybe Chara is still the overworld, or maybe they remembered it from a second ago when they still were in it. Or maybe this single line disproves that fights are canon, since obviously Chara stated something that wasn't shown on the screen, so the entire screen was lying (it takes one example do disprove the whole, isn't that right?)

"So they "have" it, yet it looks like they don't?"

They have it, yet they don't feel it.

"Let's get ourselves back to the facts, shall we?"

Facts such as, Toby made a game about murdering others, contrary to how he talks about it publicly? Is that what you meant? That monsters deserved their fate, because they do nothing but harm you, think like children, started the war and spread misinformation to control the masses? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? All examples of this that you showed I've successfully debunked, yet you keep claiming you are correct nonetheless, because this is "how it is", since the intro is obviously above everything the monsters could ever say in their defense, so you're obviously right and always were, you are the smartest person on this entire forum, you cracked the mystery, you've discovered Toby's true message, everything makes sense now, no one can disprove you, you're have the holy truth now, that Toby is a sly, deceitful bastard...

Go on. Say that publicly about him, I dare you.