Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20170907132946

1)Yes, it would drain it that much faster. That's why he turns into Flowey directly after the fight. This really is Asriel's Last Goodbye.

Actually, we don't have to redefine the HUD. Remember, monsters can see the human SOUL when it's their turn-That's how they aim for you. So, if we just say that Asriel is showing us HIS HUD... It actually works out! Of course monster HUDs would work different than human HUDs, as they each fight differently!

2)Just because the dog is Toby doesn't make the game in the corner Undertale. The game in the corner is one of Toby's future projects. It looks like the pieces are finally coming together... ...The jigsaw pieces, at least.

3)All the machine does is record music and make a scratching sound over it. That can EASILY be modernized to the point of it no longer requiring a disc. Just use the post-singularity microphone, and play a simulated scratching noise! There's nobody "playing" the DJ disc.

4)Adtually, that makes no sense. If there was no hole, how did the monsters get underground? And where did the hole come from?

5)It coming first is not why I argue it trumps the plaques. The reason why I said it trumps the plauges is because the plaques were made by monsters who didn't do their research, who assume no humans will ever fall underground, and that they will be trapped underground forever, while the intro only gives us factual information-Chara fell in 201X, this is how they fell, there was a war, ect. Remember, the monster plaques also said that only beings with a powerful SOUL can leave, and left it at that-It was Dr. Alohys that told us you needed both a human and a monster SOUL to leave, instead of just one powerful SOUL. Also, most games don't give us direct story like that. We see an event, are told a story, we assume something about that story, and later on, our assumption turns out to be wrong, as new info reveals it actually meant something else. We actually see one of these twists in Undertale as well! The intro leads us to believe that we fell in 201X, and that we're naming Frisk. (But remember-We're never explicitly TOLD that the child who fell was us) Turns out the kid was someone completely different from us, and we should have looked closer at the intro-Kid only wears one stripe, and there were no flowers in the intro.

Other times, there IS a "fake intro", but we know beforehand that it's a certain character telling us the story-And that character turns out to be lying, swapping out who we consider the "good" and "bad" guys. This is quite a common one in the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon series.

Of course, Undertale is way more meta than these other games, and acknolwedges its mechanics. No other game (except for OneShot, and maybe Animal Crossing) has the ability to SAVE and LOAD be canon. We need to look at this game from an investigative point of view, taking into account the evidence, and forming our conlusion from it.

6)The icon is waves. Almost every type of wave is invisible.

8)By that logic, Frisk isn't even the one SAVING and LOADing, as there's no SOUL there either. And thanks for the evidence, now I shall respond to that.

It appears the reason why Toriel didn't get cinnamon and butterscotch was because there weren't any-She was dissapointed. However, we have to consider that this kind of stuff relies on what appears to be luck, based on the timing of both Toriel getting the pie, and monsters before her getting pie. Chara not falling altered the Underground quite a lot, it could be enough to alter the "RNG" (not really an RNG) so that Toriel gets bad luck this time.

Things do seem unusual, even to someone who plays Hard Mode to begin with. For example, the first enemy you face is Final Froggit. Notice that name "Final"? It's supposed to be of the FINAL type of Froggit-But it's the very first enemy we meet?! That doesn't look right!

However, you make a good point with Napstablook. In fact, things get even stranger. As your evidence shows, Napstablook STILL responds to the "not very funny" quote, saying he's REAL funny, even though the narrator never said anything about being funny!

Napstablook missed the memo, but what memo? How did Final Froggit leave the CORE to get to the Ruins, when the exit to the Ruins is supposedly one-way, so that even WE cannot return to the Ruins? This explanation doesn't really work out. However, the narrator explicitly mentions "normal" here. This even happens if Hard Mode happens before regular mode, meaning the narrator never even experienced "normal" yet! So how do they know what "normal" is if they've never experienced it?

It appears there is only one real explanation for Hard Mode now. This Napstablook moment pretty much wipes out any other explanation there is, because of this paradox. You see, the narrator does know what "normal" is, and Hard Mode IS a "memo".. Because as it turns out, the story of Undertale wasn't originally told as a game with code. The characters in Underale are actually actors, acting out the story. Indeed, they're only reciting lines, and Napstablook gives out the wrong line, assuming that we're in normal mode-Hence giving a response that doesn't make sense.

But, the story is what's important, not who's telling it, so said information won't really help us figure out the story. Clearly, there is at least some story behind Hard Mode, as the switch is faded, and Toriel failed to get butterscotch-cinnamon pie, unlike with five of the six humans before you. But, how do we tell what is a part of the story, and what is the actors messing UP the story? Well, the narrator pretty much makes it clear which is which. Perhaps the narrator is the director? ...Yeah, it doesn't look like we're going to be getting any further than this..

No, if a theory explains EVERYTHING, it is automatically better. That's why quantum mechanics is better than Newtonian physics. Quantum mechanics is a very complicated system with a LOT of rules, but as it adequetly explains ALL the evidence, it's better than Newtownian physics which gives a much simpler explanation, because Newtownian physics leaves out a few things. So by that logic, quantum mechanics is worse than Newtonian physics, and we should all go back to those physics, completely ignoring the very clear evidence that photons are both a wave and a particle, in a superposition that just so happens to change into a particle the moment we observe it. Yeah, it really seems like a nonsense with added rules and exceptions when told like that.

9)Flowey "gives us back" our SAVE. You see, Flowey has different SAVE files than us-He deletes OUR save when we attempt to use it, and then uses his own SAVEs. However, one file he does not overwrite at all is File 1. Hmm, I wonder why? Perhaps before destroying our SAVE, he copied it onto his File 1?

Actually, my take on this is that he messes up the intro, as we're veiwing it, and inserting his own message into it. And yes, he's REALLY powerful. I actually consider that evidence that the intro really is something that Frisk sees in some way.

11)No, no, and no. Frisk gained the ability to Reset at the start of the game without killing Flowey, who had that power before. This is because Frisk's determination now overrides Flowey's. Also, Omega Flowey DOES steal our ability to SAVE, LOAD, and Reset. We can't reset here, even if we try to select it. Omega Flowey stole that power from us. So, in the case of Omega Flowey, Frisk's determination is less than that of 6 SOULS. Each human has a "natural", perhaps even a "minimum" DT ammount Call said value DT-A. However, I do agree that Frisk has fragments of that power left-That's how they're able to interact witn the SAVE file box in the first place. Of course, by "interact", I mean "actually see the box, and choose when to continue, and having no choice BUT to continue." Also, we don't have proof determination is what makes souls "strong". It's just the resolve to change fate. Nothing more. And Frisk HAS the power to reload during Asriel's battle. Otherwise, Asriel would have stolen it from Frisk like Omega Flowey did. (I wonder what happens if you exit the game during Asriel's battle...) Howeved, Frisk cam't reach for their SAVE either, and if Frisk never SAVEd before, they now lack the power to do so. So neither Asriel nor Frisk have the power, which can only mean that their determination is actually tied. Frisk would have exactly the determination of 7 SOULs. It fluctuated by 16.6666%. Humans can have a boosted DT amount, given certain situations. Let's call this boosted value DT-B.

Actually, gathering enough human SOULs to pass is exactly what the monsters are trying to do-With just one. Alphys said "at least" a human SOUL and a monster SOUL. I don't understand the paradox. If you mean Frisk could absorb a human SOUL and use it to pass, you have to remember that humans cannot absorb other human SOULs. Also, my point is that this creates a paradox. That's my argument as to why determination is not SOUL power-As if it was, it would create a nonsense like this.

Alphys flat-out said the barrier is composed of SOUL power in her experiments to try and break it. And yet, a magic spell was used to create is, as evidenced by both the plaques and the intro. So what gives? Well, here's what happened. The magic spell took the SOUL power that the seven Mages put in, and made a barrier out of that SOUL power.

Do note that with seven SOULs, the barrier can be destroyed, even if not a single monster SOUL partatkes in it. The amount of magic contained does not matter, merely the DT does.

Now, as we learned from Frisk, DT-B>1.16DT-A

The power needed to cross the barrier is that of a human and one-hundredth of a monster. Let's call this DT-C (100 is "nearly all" of monsterkind if monsterkind is 106 monsters. There's probably far more than 106, but I'm being conservative and using the assumptions that lean towards your theory.) But, a human could boost their determination by 16.666%, and have 116.666% SOUL power. (DT-B) 111.6666%>101%. DT-B>DT-C. Therefore, naturally, it shouldn't require a monster SOUL to cross the barrier.

12)She disliked that Asriel killed them, and then failed to use that SOUL to cross the barrier to free everybody. She was perfectly fine with Asgore killing his first human, as long as Asgore would use that SOUL to cross the barrier, gather six more SOULs, and use them to free everybody instead of just letting the monsters all suffer when they could be rejoicing on the Surface already.

13)No, Frisk said they didn't do "that". Just as we shouldn't disregard evidence, we cannot make our own evidence either. We cannot add or take away from the evidence we are given. But if we both agree Frisk didn't do what the narration said, then hopefully we can both agree that that's why Frisk refused the narration, and that Frisk laughed, but not as Chara said. Because once again, Frisk does what we have them do. We roleplay them. We, the player, do not exist in that game. There's actually a comic that considers the player as a canon entity-It's called Underplayer. Go check it out if you want to see where the theory of the player existing takes you. Feel free to point out differences between the comic and your "player" theory if you will, but we should both agree that if the player exists, then so too does that fact that the world is a game. :3

14)And my explanation is that in all scenes where Flowey appears to be talking to "the player", he actually isn't-In the Neutral Ending, he's talking to Frisk. In the Genocide Ending, he's talking about the narrator without knowing said narrator is actually Chara. In the Pacifist Ending, he's talking to Chara, and we, as Frisk, are there too, listening in on the conversation. And yes, we shouldn't look outside the game. All my evidence is INSIDE the game so far, such as Aaron, Tsunderplane, Napstablook, and the favt that a narrator exists. Of course Sans isn't Ness, none of the evidence within the game suggsts so. MatPat claims it's justified because "none of the theories explain the badge or the photo album", but actually, I have a much better explanation of Gaster that actually explains the photo album over at a thread entitled "W.D. Gaster Theories". And the badge can easily be explained by the theory as well, when you take a look at it, but as I never explicitly mention the badge, I'll do it here-That badge is W.D. Gaster's badge, signifying that he is the Royal Scientist.

The canon universe is what the gameplay tells us it is. We start with the story, and then we look at the mechanics. The mechanics all make sense within the story, Sans explicitly mentions "turns", brining the mechanics over into the story. The characters react to the HUD, so that is canon. There's no comtradictions between these peices of game evidende and the canon we're given so far, so, as I said, it probably IS canon. The HUD does make sense within the canon universe. We should try to explain everything, but we should also do it in a logical manner. What we're doing is starting off like the real world, and fine-tuning our theories to fit every piece of evidence there is, in a natural flow. And here, the evidence suggests the HUD exists, because Sans and Asgore abuse it. Sans is having an existential crisis, so he knows the mechanics, and that makes them canon. And actually, the monsters are aware of the fact that they must battle in turns. In fact, Sans is one that actually DOES conckude that "something is up" with the reality, that's how he discovered the HUD. The other monsters just consider turn-based battles to be the natural. They don't try to get into how the system works, just as we're not all scientists trying to figure out how, say, gravity works. (As in, how DOES mass bend space-time?) But Sans and Gaster? They DO suspect things. They DO look further into it. They question things. We should be more like them, instead of like the other monsters.

Or, we can find another way to explain it, and say it's a natural law. Quantum mechanics is something that can barely be understood, and can only really be explained by code, at least for right now. (The particle's position onky being calculated when you actually observe it. Things only truly happening/beimg calculated when observed is a common practice in games/simulations, to save RAM.)

Intellegent design. No, I'm not kidding. The universe of Undertale, and its laws of physics, were in fact designed by someone. But who? Well, we don't know. It could be Toby (he does call himself a dog god in the Japenese FAQ), we're not sure. That's the only real way to explain certain things like physical quantities of EXP, stats, numbers.. HUDs... Unless we say the Undertale universe is canonically code. (However, we could try and find a loophole to cheat this paradox, and say that yes, Undertale is made of code, but isn't canonically a "game", but rather a virtual universe.) We start with the storyline, and take care to not mess up on a single piece of evidence. I mean, why can't I just say Shakespear solved the story of Undertale, and that the entire game is a metaphor if we can just go disregarding evidence like this?

I actually do "disregard" interactions with the player, but I do it without disregarding the actual evidence. I explain the evidence in such a way so that it's referring to something other than interactioms with the player. And it actually makes sense, only making one assumption that is hinted at a LOT in the game, and doesn't post a simgle problem whatsoever:That the narrator can be heard-Or be made aware of. What's wrong with that? Why can't we just say that monsters can be aware of narrator, when it explains so much in one, and poses no problems? Tell me, what's the problem with the theory that the narrator can be heard? Why can't we just use that and explain all these pieces of evidence like that? Can you show me one, even one piece of evidence that comtradicts the theory? That makes the monsters hearing the narrator into a nonsense?

So there's my explanation as to how these things can exist without the monsters figuring it out:Sans DID figure it out, and the others just consider turn-based mechanics as a some law. They know about turns, but not about how we take our turn, nor about the HUD like Sans, as it cannot be seen-Only the flow of actions that it results in, which either Sans or Gaster reverse-engineered to figure out about the HUD and use it. :3

11A)Why didn't he become Asriel when he first killed, say, Toriel? Also, Flowey only pretended to be surprised, he finishes it off with "I can't believe you're all so STUPID". Somwthing similar happens when we beat Omega Flowey, he pretends to be suprised, crying out that he's been defeated, before being like "TROLOLOLOL I can save, I'll just keep coming back!" Flowey's plan the whole time was to gather all the SOULS and become Asriel.