Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180808182756

"And you would be a fool to believe that that's the true and universal reason they recognize you."

It's not. It's why they flat-out say that you're a human when it's common knowledge:They say it as a formality. Common monsters recognize you as a human too:They just don't state the obvious.

"Well, they're still the only ones that mention it."

That we know of. There's many places we never get to see within the game:Waterfall's castle, almost the entirety of New Home.. The buildings within HOME.. We know there's Gerson, Asgore, Sans, Flowey..

"Why should they offer their services to you?"

A:So that you get a good impression of monsters, so that you won't try to kill, say, Undyne, or if you do, you have lower stats (Intent to kill determines your stats)

B:Perhaps the human before you had previously befriended these monsters, which got them to change their outlook on humanity. And if a monster on the other side questions it, they might SAY they're doing A. ..Or try to convince them about how humans aren't all bad.

C:Maybe they just thought that destroying all of humanity isn't really a good idea.

D:(Applies to all the shops):Money. What else? Even if the customer is a human, if they're still willing to pay..

"At least it makes sense."

What, the explanation, or the assumption? What's next, was there no Vietnam War conspiracy, despite the existence of the Pentagon Papers?

"The conversation argument still works."

They should accept your mercy, though. Also, you've failed to actually debunk my reasoning.

According to Froggit, if they don't want to fight, you spare them. So, the will to fight, let's call that F. And whether sparing them is what you (should) do at the time, let's call that S.

As both of us should know, if A implies B, then not-B implies not-A. That also means if not-A implies B, then not-B implies A.

So:

Premise 1:If ¬F=>S, then ¬S=>F

Premise 2:¬F=>S

Conclusion:Therefore, ¬S=>F

In more layman's terms, since them not wanting to fight implies you can spare them, that means if you CAN'T spare them, they DO want to fight. And the vast majority of monster encounters aren't spareable right away. Isn't this clear proof that monsters that encounter you DO want to fight? (Except for a certain few like Moldsmal and Whimsum, which ARE spareable right away)

"I still believe that if a monster is being overly nice to you, they don't know. Tsunderplane is too busy being tsundere, but please, explain the Snowdin residents."

Oh no, I was using Tsunderplane as an argument that a commoner can know what a human looks like. Their tsundere behavior is why they flat-out uttered that you're a human. Monsters SAYING that you're a human when it's flat-out obvious is the special case not the "general rule".

"Who says all of them know how to make monster food?"

Who says they can't? Even spiders can do it. Also, green magic is just one ingredient in it. The raw, green magic is all you need to use green bullets.

"And not everyone can use every magic type, by the looks of it."

If we've learned anything from "yellow bullets", which happen when you shoot a white bullet, resulting in the bullet leaving the playing field, it's that some bullets are completely useless in battle. Perhaps the reason why purple, red, and (dark) blue bullets aren't used is because they're completely useless in battle. If they exist, that is.

"I'm starting to think such thing is impossible."

Probably is. Godel's Theorem makes this a possibility even for this world, since a major aspect of science is math, and it proves that for every mathematical system that's consistent, there are true statements that are unprovable.

"My argument is based on Flowey's initial words, where he spoke of the underground as something vastly different from the surface."

"Someone ought to teach you how things work around here!"-Flowey

You mean that? Remember, he's trying to trick you so that you die.

"Which naturally leads me to point at the HUD and the saves for any such difference. The saves especially, since they're spatial. We can't just choose to save wherever we want to. Which leads me to believe they might be artificial of origin."

The SAVES likely do indeed only exist underground. Perhaps they're caused by a surplus of magic, and monsters, magical creatures, all living underground, and the magic never being able to leave because of the Barrier caused magic to become dense enough to lead to such a possibility.

"And so, why couldn't the HUD be artificial too? It's already so similar to the saves after all. And in addition to that, it's only available to one person, to one "player", and it essentially gives the world a game-like appearance."

Actually, I don't view the HUD as restricted to one entity. It's likely that ALL humans have the HUD. That's how it could have been studied in the war. In the war, the HUD didn't just rapidly flash between the thousands of soldiers to the point where nobody could really use it! (Determination fluctuates-You should expect this to happen. Even under my thesis of red being DT, as there are likely 1/7 red SOULs.) They all had it simultaneously!

"All these things are supporting the artificiality argument. It WOULD be a simpler explanation than these being a natural occurence in that world, at least in terms of the assumed scope. Magic has proven to be mimicking physical matter, but not to warp the world into a game window interface."

It's no game interface. My (partial) explanation of the HUD (which I said a second time in my previous post) retains nearly all of the main properties of the outside world. Nothing is being taken away-New things are just added.

"In short, the HUD looks vastly different from the overworld. So much so I'm assuming it is not natural. And if it is, I'm assuming the overworld obeys the same meta laws, e.g. Frisk being unable to walk off a cliff."

It may indeed have strange laws, but we shouldn't make any assumptions about them. And this would be a law that the monsters could quickly figure out:Just like the fact that turns exist. And they'd make a small chasm, knowing humans can't cross, and monsters can. (Monster Kid manages to fall off a cliff.)

"So... safety lessons for them and the king, but no one else?"

Oh, the commoners know the basics of the system:I've already explained what they know. The rest is stuff that a commoner couldn't fully understand.

"Wrong."

His own creation, right?

"The said theories assume he was experimenting with himself. The said power was originally intended for him."

Then he wouldn't make the mistake of making it based off of DT, when he knows full well that humans have far more of it than monsters. He's smarter than that. Brilliant scientists don't just miss that OBVIOUS detail, that even some COMMONERS have known.

"Indeed, why. That is the philosophical question."

Basically, why are these values what they are? And why is this equation true in the first place? Why is there a superposition of positions and velocities AT ALL? Why isn't the standard deviation zero, there being only one possibility?

"I'm sure you will get a better answer by someone more qualified to talk about these subjects."

The same goes for the HUD.

"Why are you assuming the souls told her?"

You theorize that Toriel buried these six humans, after the Barrier broke, in the same mannerism as Chara. But, if she wasn't aware of their wishes, the events wouldn't have transpired. How and why did she rebury the six humans, not knowing what their wishes was?

"Yes, the WILL to live. Not soul persistence/anti-aging substance."

DT lead to the Amalgamtes coming back, and persisting. DT lead to Flowey coming to life. DT and life are essentially one and the same.

"Besides, you really think there's DT flowing from the parents to the child? Like a double umbilical chord or something? I refuse to believe such ridiculous idea."

Hey, the exact same thing happens with Boss Monsters and SOUL power, being why they don't age until they have kids:What's the difference? ESPECIALLY if you're still under the belief that SOUL power and DT are one and the same.

"What kind of logic is this even?"

Lack of life substance=not alive=dead

"Yet her soul didn't."

It persisted WITH her body.

"Obviously, either boss monster souls are more removed from their bodies than we thought, or something preserves them, something that's clearly not DT."

Something very well DOES preserve them. And I don't see why DT magic isn't a possibility. (Is produced from DT, proportionate to its number.)

"She looked pretty 'happy' in a neutral run death to me. I'm not saying she wanted to die, but she wasn't trying super hard to stay alive either."

"Urgh... You are stronger than I thought."-Toriel

She still had a WILL to live, though. It might not be conscious and aware at that moment, but it's there. Think of the case of Flowey-He tried to erase himself:Clearly, nearly no mental will to live. But, when he tried doing that, a primal feeling, a surge.. "I don't want to die!", he screamed. THAT is what DT is. Life, and protection of one's own life.

"We don't attack. Neither does Flowey, he only kills his soul. Ergo, Asgore kills himself."

Yes, if we DO give him mercy. You and I both said if we don't give him mercy. Look more closely at the text.

"You're speaking as if this was a DT-driven choice. But the books say this is a rule. A monster soul would persist for a few seconds whether the monster would like it or not."

Flowey wanted to die, but once that started to happen, a primal feeling kept him from it. THIS is what I believe to be the substance we all know as DT, in these cases.

"That's very much unlike DT, and the Dreemurrs confirm it, they weren't particularly determined. Definitely not more than Undyne."

You're right, they weren't. Undyne's body and SOUL both persisted for several minutes as well, rather than a mere few seconds of nothing but the SOUL persisting. Remember, at 0HP, you're dead. Undyne, her body and SOUL both, were persisting beyond the point of death. Because of her will to live on, her resolve to change fate..

"Plus, I don't think Asgore would offer his soul if someone's bullets just killed him, and neither would Toriel in the genocide route after we strike her down."

Monsters can't absorb other monster SOULs. Asgore wouldn't be aware that this was a living flower right away. He would have no worry there:The "monster" that killed him couldn't absorb his SOUL:So it would be for you only. In Toriel's case, it's now the will to live-To not die. She CLEARLY isn't happy with her death in THAT route.

"And I am telling you, look at the context of that conversation."

The context is:Asgore declared war, you're the last SOUL he needs, and with that, King Asgore will give them hope.

"When we encounter them. They're not the ones with the HUD, we are. Everything revolves around us. You choose to act, fight or perhaps flee. Yes, from your perspective, they do approach you, but you can flee even before they attack, and I refuse to believe the intentions of every single one of them are malicious."

You can flee before they attack because humans always have the initiative of battle. And yes, not every monster has malicious intent. Take a look at ALL the NPCs who never attack us! I've already proven that less than HALF of the monsters actually try to attack you at all, and that's given the maximum number of kills, and the minimum number of total monsters Underground:Make it the more realistic thousands, and less than 10% of monsters want to kill you. Malicious race? Oh, please.

"Besides, this is how an encounter is defined anyways, so you're wrong by definition."

Wait? You meant the real-world encounter? I was talking about a FIGHT. You know, from the game? The turn-based combat system? THAT? Yeah, those are the only cases where I say they want to kill you.

"Such establishment I assume would supply them with objective knowledge. Just like any other normal school. The story the monsters told was not particularly neutral. It still had to be told however."

Actually, stories that the schools tell can in fact be biased towards their country. For example, Christopher Columbus DIDN'T discover America, and he WASN'T the first to say that the Earth was round. But they teach you that in school. And since they clearly live in a monarchy, the odds of this are a lot higher than they would be here. You also have the fact that they have no real communication to the human world. This raises the odds of corruption of the story over time considerably.

"And then contradicts itself with the second flag. I somehow had to merge the two ideas of it being a mixture, as well as nothing at the same time."

Try as you might, you continue to be yourself. This clearly contains the originality of blue.

"Then why is it the only trait that arises from a combination of other traits? It doesn't make logical sense."

That's where my take on the red trait comes into play.. As I showed, there were clear hints to determination across the different traits.. What's the one thing they share in common? They ALL have to do with doing what it takes to solve the problem. To resolve things:We have a firmness of purpose:Resolution. So, if we merge all the pieces together, and find out how they all connect.. What do we get? Determination!

"Another thing, DT is not the red trait. I have made that clear many times already."

1-We're still discussing that.

2-You were attacking my theory, so we have to use my hypothesis when analyzing it. I was explaining how SOULs work under my model-And under my model, red is DT:So I'll be using that in my model. If I were trying to debunk YOUR model, which I do elsewhere, THEN you could use that as an argument, because that means I'm assuming part of your model is wrong just to prove it wrong, when in fact separating them would make it work. In my model, red is DT, and that's used in my explanations of my model. So either show why that doesn't make sense, or find a flaw that doesn't rely on red not being determination.

"Use your imagination. They walk. The leaves crinkle."

Why doesn't their sprite move to reflect that? Cutscenes and animations exist for a reason.

"The messages can carry opinions though, so it's still Chara. If that's what you meant."

Chara's the one giving the opinionated messages. The window is what's actually filling you with determination.

"And how do you know we always see the world from Frisk's point of view?"

Because Frisk is our character. We play as Frisk. We ARE Frisk, according to canon. Frisk=Player. Remember, the player doesn't canonically exist as some third entity. We always see the world from our point of view, and we're Frisk. So, what does that mean..?

"Honestly, the POV being Chara's during Flowey's final speech makes much more sense."

That would mean Chara had the ability to reset, rather than Frisk. And that for some reason, Chara got separated from Frisk, when throughout the WHOLE GAME, they were bound together. If Charisk is one body, then Frisk should be there too. If Chara is a sprit bound to Frisk, Frisk should be there too. Tell me, what IS Chara according to you? And if they're not bound to you, why do they stick around with a human? They hate humanity, remember?

"You forgot he's no longer the same. He wasn't reborn rude."

He also didn't suddenly turn absolutely social and nice in every way possible in just a few hours. Not to mention that mannerisms in a monarchy are far different than American mannerisms. Chara isn't W. D. Gaster, and Asriel makes it clear that FRISK is the kind of friend he wanted.. I wonder what that means about his relationship with Chara..

Also, mannerism is subjective anyway:What's nice in one country is rude to another. I mean, this didn't happen, but you could argue that it (well, the first four panels) should have.

"So indie games are above solid movies for you?"

Even in movies, that's a cliche. I thought that was only in those B-movies. Also, Undertale is not your typical indie-game:It was developed over years, by an entire team. It's way more solid than FNAF.

"It isn't though. Hence why my ACTUAL belief is that this line isn't canon at all, since it cannot be."

Except it CAN be canon, using my simple explanation.

"And they survived because...? And they got the seeds from...?"

They got the seeds from the Surface, and they survived through the natural light that fills the underground. You know, the reason why it's not pitch-black in there? Trees can survive in the entrance zones of caves, and in fact do exist there.

"What exactly makes you say that?'

Only beings with a powerful SOUL can enter. Is light a being with a powerful SOUL? ...I didn't think so.

Not only that, look again at the intro. Look at the shot where Chara discovers the hole, before they trip. There is NO "radiating light"-In fact, most of it is pitch-black. Why? Because all of the light that went beyond there, through the barrier, never came back out.

"The first."

So, why do you argue that he did it "in the laziest way possible?" He could have been FAR lazier. The product would have a lot of bugs, but that happens in even AAA games.

"And built the story as he kept on realizing the purpose of the game. Maybe you haven't realized this yet, but programming takes lots of time. Lots and lots of time. I know this from a personal experience."

You're right, it does. A few years. Like the amount of time that it takes your average AAA game to be made by a team.

"Oh, and his "team" consisted of online advisors (like, anyone can seek help online with anything these days pretty much) and enthusiasts who agreed to do some of the art and sprite work for him, like Temmie. No one split the burden of coding with him. He gets the main credit."

So he did the programming, and the team probably worked on the plot. Also, spritework is still coding:All Toby would have had to do then is copy/paste the code that Temmie gave him. Ctrl-C, Ctrl-Z.

"Yes, it is a synonym. But only because if the ball ends (falls into the hole), the game ends."

And it is THAT that the flags talk about when they portray BALL as the obstacle. The game ITSELF is the obstacle. Of course the ball itself isn't the obsctable, "BALL" is the obstacle. Which means the game itself. And once again, "BALL" is ALWAYS the obstacle. So, that would apply to green.

"DT allows you to access the saves, which are most likely rifts in spacetime. We've both agreed that it does not generate them."

Actually, DT does generate the SAVEs. Every time you SAVE, that's what you're doing:Making a SAVE. Creating the rifts. So yes, this is the power of DT. Not just DT, there's still the actual save system, but DT plays a major role.

"I mean, the first makes sense"

Patience≠Fear. The first implies that patience and fear are one and the same. Now do you see why that's nonsense?

"and the second is only similar because fear can make you literally stand still."

That's indeed a mere correlation, with no equivilance there.

"Also, orange is an inverted light blue according to color theory."

The light-blue color SOUL appears cyan. So it would be red. And if you meant blue+white, the inverse would be dark yellow-Not orange.

However, the orange and light blue attacks do have opposite mechanics. Combine the two together, and you get white, which harm you either way. But looking at the traits, there really is no hint at opposition.

"Indeed. Also, now that you mention it, one more pair: purple vs green. In reality, it should be magenta vs green"

That's why I didn't count that. I don't allow this kind of thing:Magenta means magenta, not purple. The inverse of purple is actually a mixture of green and yellow.

"Purple = perseverance = power through = strong attack. Green = etc = defense. Attack vs defense. Quite the opposites too."

It appears as though these pairs are compliments of each other. Low attack doesn't mean high defense, but each one works against the other, and you need a balance of both.

"But that does not explain the strings."

Modes aren't traits! They're just a result of the traits, and nothing more! ..Besides, there's exactly three strings. The main strategy is to hope between the strings at the right time. The number of possibilities drops DRAMATICALLY. This makes trial-and-error more viable.

"With purple, you already have the knowledge. Cyan is the knowledge you get from books."

Cyan has nothing to do with reading books.

"Blue is the kind of knowledge only experience can give you, wisdom.:

Waiting for the right oppertunity is closer to that than analyzing books.

"And purple is divine knowledge, divine power. The inexplicable."

What does that have to do with taking notes to succeed, even as you feel trapped?

"Which explains how a single bone can deal massive amounts of KR, repeated damage, the inexplicable."

1 damage per frame. There exist items that boost your invicibility frames, so invincibility times are likely real.

"Trial and error in this case refers to powering through your obstacle by any means necessary, even by doing the same thing over and over again - struggling to bring the ball to the hole, struggling with strings, being dealt the same damage over and over again."

No, you're trying something new every time. That's how you're taking notes in the first place, you try one thing, you take note of how that went, then move onto something else.

"In a way, it is a form of stubbornness. But not of the mind, but of the action."

So trying the same thing and expecting a different outcome? How is that supposed to help you solve a problem? I'm with Einstein on this one.

"This is what taking notes means. You don't actually take notes, it can be thought of as a figurative way to say all of the above."

So trying every outcome until you find the one that works? Which is it-Are you trying the same thing over and over, or are you trying everything? Pick one, and stick to it.

"If red is grants maximum freedom, then purple enforces maximum restriction (and the other traits being somewhere in between)."

Either yellow or blue is maximum freedom, though. Red's a balance of the other six traits.

"This is how you connect the strings, the text from the flags, and KR all together. And I did it under the chakra system too. Do you know why I like this chakra system so much? Think of a psychological system that is well-defined for the entirety of the human psyche, that carries 7 fundamental aspects. I know of the big five, hexaco, the 4 temperaments (which are based on two aspects, openness and stability), but the chakra system has so far been the only suitable one for what Undertale presents."

I do think it's better than the other systems that you've brought up, but I was looking for a match as close to perfect as you can possibly get:Or just flat-out perfection. Which is where I got my system from.

"For the longest time, this is what I've been trying to describe. There are more than 7 psychological traits, yet only 7 soul traits. So either the humans in UT are incredibly dull in terms of personality, or the traits have to mix."

Red confirms the latter is the case. There's actually only 6 traits, red is what happens when you balance the six.

"I hated both explanations"

Well, I guess you hate the red flag. It flat-out PROVES the latter MUST be the case!

"so I've developed the hash function theory, which I guess is more reminiscent of neural networks trying to process an image and tell what it contains - to crunch the big data into a single small output."

Yes, that is indeed a much better comparison.

"Before that, I thought the traits might describe something concrete, perhaps the fighting styles, which I guess would have been pretty straightforward, but how broad would such concept have to be to encompass every kind of obstacle? All-encompassing?"

Exactly, it doesn't work. There's not just 7 different possible ways to fight, and the flags are talking about solving problems, not just direct fighting. It does indeed have to be all-encompassing when it comes to problem-solving.

"A hash function it is then. And then, I've started to return to the psychology of these traits. The body definitely creates the trait, it's not the body developing into an image of the trait, but how does it do that?"

Whichever trait is the most dominant is the one that influences the SOUL color. If there is a balance, then the SOUL is red.

"For example, what if the soul took the aptitude of the humans and gave them a trait that would imply the least harm? Perhaps, certain professions can have a positive effect on a specific soul type, or maybe the soul avoids certain types of harm this way."

Perhaps. It would also mean the SOUL colors can't change:Once it's determined for the first time, it's stuck. ...But then monsters can change it so easily, and it wears off after a battle, so.. What's going on?

"Anyways, my hash function assumption is the absolute basis of my thesis here. Now I can hopefully work on other aspects of it, make it more "natural" and less "hashy", so to speak."

Yes, a natural explanation would be far better.

"This is what I mean by returning to the psychology of these traits. And the chakra system is fitting and well-developed. Perhaps I can obtain more useful info from it."

Maybe if you were to fix the problems in it, and alter them to actually fit canon, you would have an amazing system.

"Now, I know we all have all 7 chakras and need to have them all balanced, optimally. So of course I'm not going down this path."

Right-Since according to the game, red IS the balance.

"But perhaps I can find some permanence in the chakras. It's all so fluid, the chakra imbalance, but I trust it with the permanence, since it's been only 7 and only these specific 7 chakras, the root, the sacral point, solar plexus, heart, throat, third eye and the crown, that makes me think these will fit the UT traits perfectly."

Just tweak the theory until it actually fits the evidence. While the evidence is absolute, and cannot change, we can't say the same thing about theories.

"For I need to make sure my thesis concerning the UT traits encompasses every case. So I need to make sure the system I'm using is so to speak, "universal.""

Indeed, you do.

"And I trust the chakras to be complete."

As they are right now.. No. They leave holes.

"That they are complete concerning fluid problems: problems that go away once you balance/heal your chakras (so be it financial problems, safety problems, love, self-confidence, self-realization, and other temporal problems)"

...That's just the New Age stuff. Chakra healing altering the physical world, and physically healing yourself..? I thought you said you didn't believe in that part of the whole idea.

"as well as static problems: your physical boundaries, e.g. not understanding psychology but being great at math."

Yellow is accuracy, so that goes with science, and many parts of math. The trial-and-error aspects go with purple, however. Psychology is understanding the human psyche:If that goes anywhere, it goes under blue, integrity-Since it's all about original style.

"I need a system that can describe a soul, that does not change its trait throughout its lifespan."

There's no evidence that soul traits cannot change.

"Which is how believe the souls work. So we ARE talking about aptitude here, and nothing else."

Oh, apitdude? Yes, that is indeed what the SOUL traits define.

"So maybe, the chakras will help me develop a good universal 7-trait aptitude system, or put some sense into the UT traits, which clearly have no psychological basis."

It's your methods of solving problems. Not whether or not you're an extrovert or an introvert. It's 7 traits, not 7 dimensions. (At most, 6 dimensions) What can you use to solve problems? THESE are the six traits.

"It's just words chosen to fit the entertainment that is the soul mode battles. That's what Toby had in mind."

He had better choices than concern and care to fit the green soul mode. He could have just mentioned defending yourself.

"He was no psychologist, he did not contemplate what I am contemplating here right now, I am sure of that."

Indeed, it's not psychology. It's just your statistics, what method fits you the best.

"But for the sake of making sense of the game, I need to do this."

Yes. And so do I. For Toby shouldn't be used as an argument just to debunk a theory.