Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20171213151556/@comment-32182236-20180205202646

"But that's also a nonsense. The same one in fact as saying that the story is not happening in the US because of the negative included. You're just replacing space by time. You're saying that the story is not happening during the time when the USDA exists, and again soleley because of the negative included."

You misinterpreted my statement again. I said the USDA didn't exist when the monsters were first banished underground, not when the game takes place. As I stated in the original timeline, the game takes place in the present, centuries after this initial banishment, and it is during that time gap the USDA was created.

"No feathers and stuff. That's one of the most recognizable features of native Americans"

Are you talking about a war bonnet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_bonnet

...War bonnets had to be earned, they weren't just something everyone had-In fact, the number that wore those were quite few. It being commonplace is a sterotype, and not historically accurate. It could be the humans depicted did not earn their war bonnets.

"Ancient fusions between diversions and doorkeys. They are made to halt (divert) but not to stop (lock) humans from progressing."

Yeah. That's what the PUZZLES were for. And, what side of HOME are they at? Towards the start of the game, and away from New Home? Why, that would be correct! So... Why are the puzzles placed on the other side of the door? If the monsters were coming in from Snowdin, and believed the humans would come from Snowdin, the puzzles should have been created in Snowdin. Under my theory, it makes sense though-If humans fell from where we did, it would make sense to place the puzzles on THAT side. And also, it doesn't make sense for the entrance to face the Ruins anyway. Who'll be entering from the Ruins anyway if there's no hole there? How will that halt anybody?

"Also, the door to Snowdin. I think the monsters made it to seal the direction from which they came, but had to make it quickly accessible from the other side too, in case a human falls through the hole - the one they according to my interpretation of the lore discovered last."

So if the door already sealed the humans, what's the point of the puzzles? Were they created after the Ruins hole? And still, that doesn't leave a reason to make the entrance face the Ruins. (I said entrance, not puzzles. Look at the architecture of Home and the castle.)

"She had da key. Duh. And she stole Asgore's key, just to be sure."

Key? What key? The only key in the entire game besides the two to Ashore's castle is the Mystery Key, and that's for Hapstablook/Mettaton.

"So to monsters, humans don't exist. Great. Let's pack, we're done!"

Except they do. The plaques literally tell the tale of the war of humans and monsters. If we had a war against aliens and lost, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be saying they won't come here.

"Hole? Who says it was a hole? And to my knowledge, THAT entrance got sealed with the barrier. So I don't think they would be referring to that as an "entrance." Despite things being able to enter. Perhaps the monster that wrote that simply forgot that things can enter through the barrier normally."

Which is why the monster who wrote that wasn't a serious historian, but, as I said, someone rather ignorant in history, and why we shouldn't take the plaques as historically accurate, and go with what the intro said happened during the war instead, such as the battle being long instead of short.

"Perhaps, they only found about that much later, when the trash from the human cities started flowing in. This is also one of the contradictions you asked for. Unless you wanted a continuity error, which there isn't any."

Or, they didn't find out at all, because none of them actually say there was an entrance. And of course there's not a continuity error in the game, I meant a continuity error in the story the plaques are trying to say. Something that would confirm the story of the plaques can't be one coherent story. Because each plaque connects to the one before it.

"You're basically saying that the humans let the monsters scout the entire surroundings of the mountain so that they could check for possible escape routes. Which part of that statement makes sense to you again?"

It was less "the humans waited for the monsters to scout the mountain" and more "The giant hole was CLEARLY visible, even from a distance", and as for one of the holes (in my take it's the one in the Ruins, in yours, well.. it's not?), they were literally banished through it. I'm pretty sure you'd be aware of the hole that's being used to put you underground. A giant hole that's not hidden whatsoever doesn't need to be scouted for.

"Wide, not high. And the building material is all around them. How do you think they built Home, New Home, Snowdin, or the Core? Also, did you figure out yet that staircases don't have to copy a straight line?"

Yeah, I said a meter wide for a mile high would make too steep of a slope. Also, from what you said, let's do the math so I can explain why this is still nonsense.

One meter for one mile.. That would mean a centimeter for 526 feet. A millimeter for about 52.5 feet. Now, you can't keep your balance on a platform that's only a millimeter wide, and neither can you jump 52.5 feet. The stairs would be unusable.

"Or the Dreemurrs stayed behind for some time. Also, you don't move an entire city before you can ensure a safe journey."

Of course you don't. Those preparations would need to be taken into consideration. What I am saying is that during these preparations, the calendars should still keep on being made, and only halt when it's actually time to move out.

"The production would resume on the other side. The end of 201X only marks the date that Chara came. Not the date they all moved. Also, I don't think the monsters, with their relatively low population and stone buildings literally everywhere would have something as complex as mass production before 201X. I don't see it necessary. They would have manufactures, but nothing human-sized. Remember, despite their level of tech, they are a small community, with varying demands from various monsters. Try not to compare them to the humans, who have everything very easy."

It need not be mass-produced, you only need about 100-200 copies, for that's about the number of monsters there were at the time. But still, they need to be produced. Just not thousands of copies.

"I'm sorry but you'll have to prove this specific statement first before resuming. Also, hard labor is inevitable if you're suggesting they progressed like mad with their research through the ages. It's not like magic, you don't wave a wand and transform a cauldron into an electric stove. Those things must be more efficient than the old methods in order to catch on, and that's not something the inventors can influence. I cannot believe I am lecturing you on the basic processes in a society."

Well, let's see-Mettaton was the only star.. So, if entertainment was SOOO important back then... Why weren't there any celebrities? Not even Asgore knows what anime is-He asks Frisk what it is, in fact.

As for inventors, you have to remember that not very many inventions would need to be made. I mean, yeah, it would take people to make the microwave according to the blueprints, but that part's the shortest part. The actual theoretical physics and inventing takes the longest. Now, meet the monsters, who are much better at these kinds of things, especially Gaster himself, who found the secrets of determination... Yeah, you'd get a boom.

"Again, I challenge you to prove your nonsense, one that's so far-fetched it cannot possibly be right from a probabilistic point of view."

Um... Mettaton being the only star? Really, entertainment only become popular because of Mettaton. Without him, the underground wouldn't have that "spark", as Mettaton put it. And since Mettaton was created AFTER the Gaster Era...

"What if it is printed? What if the others got lost? What if Asgore indeed found more than one? Or what if Alphys did? What if she found documents from dozens of monsters? We don't ever find anything, just her documents. As I said, you have no proof that Gaster was the only one. Usually I would favor a theory that assumes the least, but in this case, the sole assumption that a single person achieved so much is the less probable one."

...The same Gaster Follower who specifically said Gaster built the CORE is my evidence that he was the only one. The rest is my speculation of how Asgore could have figured it out-And he wouldn't find documents from dozens of monsters, because Gaster was the only one. Asgore just needed to connect the dots to figure it out.

"Blah blah blah, blind admirers. As Homer Simpson once said, if he was so smart, why is he dead? HMMMM?"

"Unfortunately, his life was cut short." Experiments went wrong. "He fell into his own creation. (Yes, I'm aware I didn't put quotes around the middle one. The middle one wasn't an exact quote.)

He just had bad luck. Something happened during one of his experiments, that caused him to fall into his own creation-The CORE.

But yeah, I guess you could call him a blind admirer.

"Yeah. Gaster's team? Perhaps Gaster wasn't the only one as I said above? But nonetheless, you cannot use the mystery of Sans's and Papyrus's origins as a "proof" of any of this. It doesn't prove anything, it doesn't even introduce any new arguments. You're just blindly connecting two events via their unexplained ends and call it a "proof." Still, it is undeniable that Sans and Papyrus are somewhat connected to Gaster."

Yeah, we can agree about them having connections. I'm just taking the connection a step further. Alas, this proves that there were witnesses, even if they were just a part of the team. And yes, I did say team here. This was likely a photo of the creation of the machine in the same room. Yeah, that broken one. "Our reports showed a massive anomaly in the time-space continuum." (That was said by Sans during the Genocide battle) Yeah, pretty sure Gaster was one of the monsters who helped make that report.

"It could have been a reminder not to forget himself. Since his brother obviously got his memory wiped out or something. I mean, how do you even "remember" someone who was already erased? Maybe this was another one of Toby's infamous plot twists. Maybe not remember Gaster, but remember the past as whole."

And why do you think Papyrus' memory was wiped out? My take is that it's because Gaster was erased, and so too was the memories of him, what's yours? Also, technically, Sans and the CORE shouldn't exist. But they do. Sans coming from Gaster is likely the SOLE reason why he remembers Gaster. Or, perhaps it was because Sans had some of the Gaster Blasters with him. (Gaster Blasters.)

"She said they 'just showed up one day and asserted themselves.' There's no emphasis whatsoever on the part about showing up. She didn't imply they materialized out of thin air or anything. And I don't think she would bother digging up their past. All residents kinda just accepted their presence according to how she worded it."

Yeah, they showed up. From where? They don't seen to have any idea. And of course she didn't imply they came out of thin air-I don't think that materialization was actually witnessed by anybody. Their origin is just a mystery. One day, nothing, the next day, they're here.

"And those quotes? What are those? I know very well which monsters recognize you as a human and which do not. If you actually played the game yourself and paid attention to their dialogue, you would realize they aren't trying to kill you, but are just trying to have a normal convesation with you. At least those that do not recognize you as a human."

Quotes from the game. Here, let me cite who said what.

"You are the first human to fall in a long time"-Toriel, when she first comes to you after banishing Flowey. That's what she said jut after mentioning coming every day to check for humans.

" NO! YOU ARE A HUMAN! I MUST CAPTURE YOU! "- Papyrus, after you flirt with him. He considers being your friend, but then he says said quote, and refuses the date.. Well, until you spare hm a few more times, but it's clear he knows you're a human.

"you're a human? That's hilarious."- Sans, when you first meet him.

So yeah. They know you're a human. Toriel, Napstablook, and Sans are the only ones who don't want to kill/capture you.

"I know very well which monsters recognize you as a human and which do not. If you actually played the game yourself and paid attention to their dialogue, you would realize they aren't trying to kill you, but are just trying to have a normal convesation with you. At least those that do not recognize you as a human."

Just about everybody except for Monster Kid and the monsters at New Home know that you're a human. And hey, like I said, they want to drain your will to fight. Spread their "we're made of love and compassion, and without them, we can't exist" propaganda.

"Nerds are never popular. That is one of the fundamental rules of the universe. You can't just assume the entire monsterkind is a one giant mensa just to support your fanon about Gaster being popular. So stop, okay? I'm starting to get real tired of your bs. Next time, I might simply not reply to make it easier for myself."

Gaster wouldn't be seen as a nerd-He'd be celebrated like Einstein. Because that's the kind of great discoveries he made.

"Yeah... she would. But instead, she started talking about anime. Some scientist she is, amirite? Perhaps... Gaster wasn't all that popular after all. Well known? Maybe. But not worthy of being the subject in a casual conversation. Or maybe, no one knew him in the first place. Maybe Gaster wasn't someone who liked publicity. I can imagine it would only distract him from his progress. And maybe the monsterkind didn't care who came up with the idea for the Core, or who figured out all the technical parameters behind it. They just saw a bunch of monsters working on it (I don't think Gaster built it all by his own hands) and were happy that they would finally have a stable electricity source, not having to rely on water mills and stuff. Who said they were actually interested in this stuff? You did, no one else."

Yeah, it doesn't make sense, unless she doesn't know about Gaster. And yeah, nobody knew him because he was erased. That's what I'm saying. And if Gaster wasn't one for publicity, why do the Gaster Followers know of him? How come Gaster's only rememberers are the ones that create space-time distortions preventing your phone from working?

"I think you are labile if you judge people like that. She created the amalgamates. That's what messed her up. But she is not insane. She would not think she made the Core herself. You are the one who still believes everyone has memory lapses for some reason. And why? So that you could "fix" your plot holes that you created yourself using your nonsensical arguments. I'm done with this part. If you want to postulate something, at least give it some supporting arguments. Don't just randomly throw it in."

Labile-liable to change; easily altered.

Not the same as being mentally insane. And my argument is that she very quickly was altered drastically.

And the memory lapses aren't "oh, we're insane", but rather, they were retconned (almost quite literally) because Gaster no longer exists. Them all somehow forgetting about Gaster without him being erased is the plot hole that I argue proves he had to have been erased to explain it.

"She didn't mention this specific human because it didn't happen. Or maybe it did happen, but she simply didn't want to go into the specifics of the fallen humans. But anyways, this theory relies on the assumption that one died in the Ruins, which is only ever hinted at by their items lying there (or perhaps they're the items of someone else, who traded them for those left there by that dead human). So I don't think we can call this a conclusive proof. It's just a hypothesis. And besides, Asgore's dialogue seems to be implying that she left because of what he declared, that he would kill all humans that fall down, which is something he declared right after Asriel died, not after he acquired a new soul."

Yeah, their items lying there. It only makes sense if they're DEAD. As I explained, if the human got past the Ruins, how did there items get BACK to the Ruins? And Asgore just said Tories was disgusted with his actions-Not how and why. Toriel elaborates on the how and why in the True Pacifist Ending. By the way, before this is elaborated on, it appeared as though Asgore not just doing said plan was a plot hole, but it turned out not to be one. I argue something similar is the case for all the other supposed plot holes.

"Remember, he declared the war in grief and to give hope to the monsters, not because he was a coward, so it wasn't during the time when the second human fell, it was shortly after Asriel's death. The only thing he did in cowardice was to decide not to use the first acquired soul in this way."

Good, you're just about to get to why Toriel had to leave after the first SOUL was acquired..

"He also implied that Toriel left him because he declared the war. I mean, it wasn't the only way, he could have just waited until the humans aged and then collect their souls or something."

...So close, but yet so far away. Asgore only said Tories was disgusted with his actions, not WHICH actions.

"Still, I get it. Toriel said that he was a coward when they met again, implying that that's what she was mad about. But remember the neutral endings. She revokes this human hunt policy. So that's what she really was against all along."

...You do know that Frisk was there as a witness, right? If Frisk heard that monsters were planning to attack the Surface World, they might just go genocide. But, let's just say Toriel legitimately decided that the humans who fell would be treated as friends. ...Why can't it be a ploy? Treat them as friends, and then kill one unsuspecting on, OR, wait for one to die naturally, take their SOUL, and then kill everybody?

"No, they dropped it by an accident. Or perhaps they lost it. Or perhaps they dropped it willingly. Who knows which human was the first one. They could have simply just gotten rid of the stuff they found useless. Perhaps the ballet stuff. That would seem pretty useless. And this stuff would then get past the Ruins as the following humans were to equip it."

As the stats show, though, they're not useless. They make good weapons. After all, if they were so useless, they wouldn't be picked up by the later humans that moved them to Waterfall.

"Room under renovations. Or maybe not. But if we're talking about the outside view, then we can only speak of the buildings. Perhaps, the earthquake and the hole opening up happened sufficiently long ago for the monsters to be pretty much done with the rebuilding before moving to a new location. But then again, how much CAN we really deduce from this image of the Home? I don't think it's clear enough for us to see all the details. We pretty much see only two towers and one dome. The rest could very well be just rubble. Or maybe, the buildings were sturdier than we think."

So... Why do we see the buildings and not the rubble that should be surrounding them? And 1980's buildings would be this sturdy. (Remember, the cell phone puts monsters at the technology level of the late 1980's)

"Monarchy is perfectly fine for their smaller society. If Asgore is no longer the king, then I can only guess that it's because the humans are still alive and offered them to administer their community."

...Now that's actually quite a good argument supporting the humans being alive..

"I'm not taking his jokes as canon. That's the difference here."

You're taking every post you can find from him as canon, when they could very well be more jokes. You're not questioning him at all when he's known to joke/troll. Poe's law, remember?

"You wanted to say he likes to joke around. Maybe call him an "information troll." But a regular troll aims to piss people off. That's the fundamental definition of trolling. That's also what this saying means: "Don't argue with trolls, it means they win." It means they do it to piss others off."

Which is why Scott trolled everyone with FNAF3, and why Toby did his trolls. There's no other reason to be an information troll, after all. To flat-out lie just because.

"One sure way to find out: Is it not ridiculous? If not, then he's perhaps not trolling. The next question then is, does it agree with the lore? If yes, then why should we ignore it? If it's not ridiculous and it fits... shouldn't we count it?"

Some of the posts you consider as canon even as it disagrees with the lore, saying the evidence against it is "just a plot hole".

"Toby for example once said that Papyrus isn't excited when he enters Undyne's house, but that he's just merely scuffing his feet. The first one is something we've constructed to explain his behavior, and here we have an alternative explanation coming from the official source. Which one is right then?"

Either one could work. Just... think of Toby Fox the same way you'd think of Scott Cawthon, and maybe you'll understand why I don't take his posts as canon.

"Dumb way to word it. One of them portrayed Gaster. Just to be extra sure, Toby removed that one even from the official release. But other than that one, the others aren't canon, since, well, tarot cards have a set meaning. This cannot possibly fit every single character in any the game, unless it is a game specifically made to fit a deck of tarot cards. Of course a tarot card isn't canon, of course a plushie isn't canon, the actual characters are a digital code, not paper or plush, duh."

You're the one who said "Yeah, the Chara card isn't canon, so Toby didn't lie about the official merchandise thing." So that's dumb wording for you, not me. I'm ridiculing it, pointing out how the Chara card not being canon proves nothing. The fact still stands-It's official merchandise, and the post said there wouldn't be any, so Toby lied.