Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-32182236-20190212014319

"You've put an end to the mayhem caused by the ball. In other words, you've stopped the ball, whose property is mayhem."

That's called a mayhemic ball. Still not mayhem of ball.

"An "orderly system" is a very vague statement without context. With justice, you are striving for order and... justice. And integrity is about morals. The next step is figuring out what real-world scenarios this translates to in such a way that these two fundamental traits overlap as little as possible."

Malice has a good idea. Laws are founded upon moral premises that WE create. We create axioms, and then build upon those axioms. We MAKE mortal principals, then build laws based on those things.

Think of it like this:If you're just taking elements, and combining them together using order and logic to build off of those elemental principals, it's yellow. But of you're making something original.. It's blue.

"What is the difference? Creating being faster?"

Creating implies originality, building implies simply taking the elements and putting them together.

"Furthermore, "trial and error" seems to also fit my own head canon about it, which is a reiteration of magic. I've used that to explain Sans's KR hurting you multiple times in a row, but you can also think of it as the necessary action needed to be taken for trial and error - repeating the same thing over and over."

Exactly. But learning each time. Taking notes about it.

"To the yellow flag it is an enemy. Remember, the narratives could be skewed individually for each flag. Especially if the green flag isn't treating the ball as an enemy. In other words, you don't know, so don't assume."

For five flags, the ball is an obstacle. Whether it's the game, the ball itself, or some unknown entity, it's ALWAYS an obstacle.

"That's what I said. You're using their conclusion to streamline the conclusion about the others. To change their meaning to make them conform to the rest."

They all have to culminate, though. Remember, we need to combine them all seamlessly to make red.

"It's kindness, obviously."

No, it's not. Even you say it's not literal kindness, but defense. I say it's not literal kindness, but passion in general.

"Yes. But looking back, passion is more a property of blue, rather than green."

No, blue is originality and moral honesty.

"If the two aren't equal, then... why are you trying to connect passion with green?"

Because it's concern and care, that can also explain the Genocide Route. And the name comes from the most common kind of passion.

"I call plot hole. Funnily, there are more, in case this conclusion surprises you. Notably the fur stuck in the sink. It should turn to dust, shouldn't it?"

Thundersnail confirms animals exist underground. There's no reason to assume this is the fur of a dead monster. (You ARE talking about the one in the True Lab, right?)

"And then all the others which we may have touched already in our previous discussions."

I don't recall even one.

"At the cost of massively bloating your theory. You know what you will get after you manage to unify all the facts presented by the game under one singular set of rules and axioms? An exact replica of the game's code. Bravo."

Not really. I've explain the HUD mechanics as more than lines of code. A product of evolution, in fact! Remember that? And I still have a backstory for the Underground, rather than it first coming into being when we start the game.

"That already makes them better though. It's not just a unique property, it's a quantifiable advantage that puts it above the rest. And I don't fancy this inequality."

Why not? Red's the hardest flag to get, it's meant to be a culmination of the six traits.. It represents balance. Isn't balance supposed to be a good thing? Something to strive for? Something that might give you an advantage?

"And what is soul power? No seriously, tell me, what is it exactly? Is it some sort of a mixture, or is it something new entirely?"

Probably something new entirely. It's the culmination of the power exclusive to the SOUL. But it's not DT!

"Define "fix". Acknowledge and integrate? Or perhaps change to make it conform?"

The former.

"But either works. Changing something isn't disallowed, since you're merely using a different explanation for the same phenomena. Kinda like the geocentric model vs the heliocentric. An alternative explanation."

You still have to explain what we see. You can't change the facts. Heliocentric isn't changing the facts, it's changing our perception. The sun APPEARS to move around the earth because WE are rotating our entire field of view with the Earth! But here.. It's "oh, that statement that you have control and the fact that you can clearly LOAD? Yeah, no, that didn't happen." It's actually closer to saying the moon landing didn't happen, just to explain why we seem to have forgotten how to go to the moon.

"My grand point is, sometimes, it's better to find an alternative explanation, for the sake of perserving simplicity. Especially if we can never know what the true answer is, such as with Undertale. But it's also a tradeoff. Too much simplicity and you're gonna be making ridiculous conclusions. Too much adhesion to the canon and you're gonna be making ridiculous conclusions, due to the canon being simply imperfect. Toby's game is imperfect, there does not exist a full explanation, that is also simple. I know this because you've failed to present one after some, what, 2 to 3 years of constantly probing this game? Are you sure what you're looking for actually exists?"

You're right that it's not simple.

I've already made an explanation for Chara's existence, the exact mechanics of the HUD, Gaster's fall (I didn't mention it here though), the reason behind the war, possibly what the Silver Key machine is, and I even had an explanation of Chara's motivations, which, while still not having been proven wrong, I'm going to be revising, since the evidence supporting it I used was pretty weak. (I already made a revised version of pre-death Chara!)

"Idk man, he didn't actually say anything, nor were his words changed after we did that. It's not about what he said as much as what he didn't say after we did it."

Actually, it's a different line. Malice guessed correctly.

"Overfitting your conclusion to the canon info. Well, I cannot say anything, except good luck."

I'm only "overfitting" things as much as quantum field theory does.

"So, already assuming that Frisk isn't the player? Okay, that's one head canon switch you've just successfully set. I wonder what's the next one gonna be."

Nope. I said the Dirty Hacker Ending is actually noncanon simply because we cannot access it, and because that implies Sans knows the game is code.. Which goes against his actions in the Genocide Battle, as I had pointed out.

"It's a cyclical system. 0 = 7 mod 7."

Traits don't cycle!

"Yes. You too can keep it in mind."

Oh, I am..

"I could say the same to you. The sentence has two interpretations. I tried to show you how mine can work."

Yours CAN work. But you were insisting it MUST be your way, just to make it work as evidence as "proof" that DT HAS to be SOUL power! And that's not okay, when there's another way to look at it.

"That's okay, but at least acknowledge that both work. Same with the mayhem thingy. These things simply don't have just one answer."

I did. Now you stop using it as "proof" that DT is SOUL power!

"And before you reply, consider the ridiculousness of the argument that one of us and ONLY one of us is correct because that same person said so."

Hey, it never specifies who's right! And since our takes contradict each other, they can't both be right! Since the two are in conflict, only one can be correct. But of course, maybe we're just both wrong.

"Yes. That's the head canon here."

I even acknowledged at the end. I said it's time to find out if DT is SOUL power or not to see if the premise makes sense. So let's find out, shall we?

"I suppose, making it 0.5-centered does work."

No, it's 0-centered. I used Planck Time because that's the shortest amount of time. You can't have negative traits. What we perceive as negative traits is a lack of the positive ones. We would perceive someone with little patience as impatient. There is no "impatient" trait, that's simply NOT having very much patience. Now do you understand?

"So there are more than 6 fluids? Or what exactly are you trying to say? How are the sub-traits distinguished from the main ones to give rise to a different personality? Also, the fixed paragraph is saying the same thing to me. So, don't be bothered about it."

Technically, the subtraits are irrelevant. You brought them up, but really, they are nothing more than the 6. Compassion is just passion used to be kind. It's nothing special.