Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-33883848-20180725202535

@the human ambassador

"Except Chara wouldn't even have a reason to give these texts when you act on the flag if it didn't come from the flag. Where did they get that from?"

The game was likely there when Chara lived in the underground

"Because they fell down one, and met the monsters..?"

Can you explain why they say "hole"without using the red text in the genocide run then? (Warning they don't use red text for "hole"word when you can't play the ball game anymore in the genocide, which also implies this red text is related to the ball game)

"So.. Where did the monsters get the idea to make the ball game and its traits THAT LONG AGO?"

Well why do you think the game associate some colours with some traits? Because in this universe perseverance is associated with purple etc.. Plus I don't think the monsters analysed the fallen children's behavior and concluded a specific trait. After all humans are supposed to be bad etc.. so do you think they would associate a human kid's behavior with kindness?

"Not always. When you read the history books, it just says you turned to a random page. They also don't give this message when reading the lab entries."

Yeah but there's not any indication of writing on the flags I doubt Toby wouldn't put any indication in the narration too

"They're also the smallest sprites that could have writing in the game! By far!"

There's would be features or something as there's many words. Plus as you can see most of the Alphys's notes have a smaller sprite comparing to the flagshttps://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5MXZYY1ZHbVJkNWs/0B6gS2LPXdIc5bHRvVnp0eUk4TjQ/0B6gS2LPXdIc5U0t1enBfUElfUzA/0B6gS2LPXdIc5MXZWY3pqLUVNMFE/0B6gS2LPXdIc5dHFkck4xVUwyNXc/0B6gS2LPXdIc5M21uakswaUo4WGM?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5b2xkcTVISmZpLUU/0B6gS2LPXdIc5dmNyUWVCQUpRRDQ/0B6gS2LPXdIc5STZsekVqN0dyeFk/0B6gS2LPXdIc5OGJUZTJUTkh6MWs?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a

"They have to keep that will, though. And that requires patience, perserveance, and bravery, depending on the situations. It also requires passion, which "care and concern" could also mean. Another definition is "firmness of purpose", which requires order, the opposite of chaos, and the yellow trait is defined as "surefire accuracy brought an end to the mayhem of BALL". Mayhem means either violent desctruction or chaos. So, we have a connection there. And finally, integrity. This is a connection by the red flag itself-You continue to be yourself. The blue flag defines integrity as "your original style pulled you through." That's being yourself. So, the red trait, determination, is a combination of the other six."

Not only there is no indication that a mix of traits lead to determination trait but if Frisk's trait was determination the narrator would say something like "by being determined regardless the obstacles you could reach your victory "(as tactics we use to win the ball game corresponds to  trait)   when Frisk get the ball in the hole but no the narrator says Frisk used all traits to win and not Determination. And I dont any connection between determination and others traits(such as kindness bravery integrity, justice etc... ), logically to have determination you only have to be determined to reach your goal. And by the way Frisk doesn't used tactics that correspond to any trait, its only says Frisk used traits.

"It's also the resolve to change fate, which DOES require a kind of bravery."

WHAT? Its rather the opposite of bravery since humans want to change their natural fate(death) because of fear"the will to keep living... the resolve to change fate let's call this power Determination ", in fact Alphys indicates that the will to keep living and the resolve fate are the same definition of determination but worded differently

"Yes, there is a relation there"

Which means that the literal definition of determination is a characteristic of perseverance's souls and that its not a separated trait. And by the way there's no indication in the game that determination is a trait, there's substance which is a power

"Yes, that's good evidence, and I don't believe they kill just because they like killing. I used that as a counterpoint to you saying we should only use what the game explicitly says somewhere. But, to keep my point going, how does that prove that Chara HAS to not be killing just to kill again?"

I don't know about what you talking but I used this a possibility of why Chara is so determined in the game(after death)

"It's the SAVE points that do this. The narration is being goofy again."

No its Frisk"this perfectly shaped lamp fills YOU with determination "the "you"is Frisk. Plus the narrator always acknowledge when they wrongly describe what Frisk does"You laugh[...] wait you didn't do that? ", "Frogit's strength intimidate you. Just a kidding"but they doesn't in the save points which mean that what they describe in the save points is correct

"The power's effect isn't the power itself. The power just sends everyone back to the SAVE file. But, the file itself only exists within the Underground, to the point where the room just after throne room is labeled "The End". It would take some time for the range of land affected by the SAVE powers, by adding them to the file, to expand."

Where is the evidences that implies this power need time to affect the land? Seems like a headcanon you use as an argument. And this power in fact exist in the surface too as the player can load their save point when Frisk is in the surface in the pacifist run

"...I was talking about hope. Hope wasn't implied in genocide. As for genocide, if you DON'T give up, you ARE determined, as Sans says. And isn't the Genocide Route the run where you don't give up? If you do, that's called the Neutral Route. Even still, you still have the will to live, and the resolve to change fate. You want to find a way NOT to get killed by Sans. (Sans actually hints at this solution though when you accept his "mercy". "If we're really friends, you won't come back!"-Sans)"

Still the genocide can be gave up when you can't continue. And when you give up during Sans's fight you still in the genocide run as the point of no return is Mettaton's fight

"It's VISIBLE."

Yes because barrier is something visible where's the issue due("this is the barrier"-Asgore) ? We can clearly see the white wall is no longer here in the pacifist run when the barrier is destroyed and in the neutral end

"We don't see the room wher the Barrier was present at all. We get the purple door by going through the same door as the door to Asgore's room. So either they're the same room, meaning this ISN'T a new place, or they're different, meaning we never get to explore Asgore's room after the Barrier shatters. (Or, more likely, we do, but the game skips that, seeing as we were there before.)"

That was what I said, the purple door is the same one in the both ends, my points were a recap of what happens. But a fact is a fact in neutral end we are in the other side of the barrier because the white wall is no longer here. And I dont understand what do you want to proove, do you want to proove that the room you get after Omega Flowey's fight is the same as the place where you fought Asgore? So where the white wall? Why theres a grace? And why there's a door in front of you?

"Besides, what's that door doing there if it's on the other side of the Barrier? Who built it?"

Should I remember you that the barrier was created by the magicians in New home's side? Monsters moved from this place because of fear of humans

"We only know the surface is beyond the door, not directly next to it. In fact, the lack of a light source there proves it's NOT directly next to the door. Remember, we reach the Surface at either sunrise or sunset-We should see that light shining through the door, but we don't."

If we reach the sunset in sun rise that means the neutral end happens in night logically, which explains the lack of light.... No seriosly what do you want to proove? Its clear and logical that Frisk cross the barrier but you try to contradict it for some non existent reasons

"Correct."(no longer in the barrière)

"What's to say Asgore's room isn't FURTHER away from this purple door? 6 and 7 I have the same comment to. And I don't see an 8."

"Yes, that is why the game ends there. In Neutral, getting trapped in the Barrier also counts as an end, but a bad end. Hence the lack of credits."

"They were sent BACKWARDS".

"The invisible wall is what I allded to, not the white one."

"SOUL power locks the barrier, not essence."

" If red just meant different than the rest, that should mean nothing, as every red-soul would be just as diferent from each other as yellow is to orange."

"That IS the will to live."

"Asgore had that thought, an: he had determination. You suggest Chara had this thought when they had deteemination. What's different now?"

"They give us a memory, so that WE may revive ourselves."

"They have OUR determination".

"Yet they couldn't revive Chasriel?"

"...So they do.. Chara WAS there.. I wonder, though, why they say it's you when it's not currently Genocide, and them if it is.."

"Where did you get THAT conclusion?"

"Consciousness is in ESSENCE, not SOULs. That's why Asriel is Flowey."

"But, it should be a combination of the two in control, as Chasriel demonstrated. Why isn't it?"

"They do. It's our will. Like they share our stats, they share our determination."

"And then gives them care and safety against those monsters at HOME, and shows how easy it is to resolve a conflict."

"Yes, you use what corresponds to yourself. You be yourself. Which matches what we determined about the red trait-You saying red means you're original, not in the other six, and me saying a combination of the six, which would include integrity."

"...No, it wouldn't replace the first flag unless it WAS needed. There had to a REASON, and that reason being that it tells the red trait works."

"Yes. But the first flag did not tell us that piece of info. The second flag does, and that tells us this is an aspect of the red trait."

"This would apply to red as well, though, wouldn't it?"