Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190403163405/@comment-32182236-20190422223016

So the bandage, and Frisk, have a history from before Undertale begins. One that Sans is somewhat interested in.

Or he just wants to know if we ever decided to take the gross bandage off. Seriously, Frisk, that's gross, and you had plenty of chances to get better armor.

I went into detail about why Narrator Chara and The Player are linked in earlier chapters. The Narrator knows only what we know, and our disposition determines their disposition.

Just because they're linked doesn't mean they're the same. They only know what we know because they see what we see. They also directly interact with us:See their final speech.

Flowey, realizing that Frisk isn’t Chara, calls Us, The Player, “Chara” at the very end of his dialogue once we restart the game after a True Pacifist run

I've asked you this question time and time again:What makes you think Flowey wasn't talking to Chara? Like, actually Chara. As in, not the player at all. I still believe that Flowey was actually talking to Chara, who is with us. And since Chara's with us, we'd hear what Flowey has to say to Chara.

Just as I've said, Flowey would have no idea what actions were Frisk's, and what actions were Chara's-He might truly believe that Chara has the ability to reset. After all, that's what the HUD seems to say...

If Gaster is such a powerful creature who wants The Protagonist dead (whether he believes we are Chara or Past Sans), why doesn’t he attack Frisk directly? Why be so mean in the elevator and send Hyperdeath Asriel and Muffet at us, when he literally had the chance to fight us in the Mystery Man encounter, and choose to flee once he woke up instead?

...Because he doesn't? I still believe Flowey's the cause of this. After the Mysterious Phone Call is complete, and Frisk ends up at New Home, vines block the door.

https://youtu.be/8Hbo8puTTbI?t=1796

Gaster isn't the one who uses vines... Flowey is.

When we type in Our Character’s name, we THINK we’re naming the character we’re going to play. We DON’T KNOW that we’re actually naming Chara yet. So we accidentally give Chara our own name, and make OURSELVES “The Fallen Human”.

Until we learn that we are not who we think we are.

Here's what that probably means. We start off with one of Chara's memories (falling down, intro has one stripe like Chara rather than two like Frisk), and we find ourselves underground. We don't have ALL of Chara's memories, because we don't know the reason behind their plan, but we do have a connection to them. They've made themselves a part of us, as we have also became a part of them.

They are the feelings we gain when a number goes up, while their "determination" and "human SOUL" is not theirs, but OURS. Frisk and Chara do appear to be intertwined in a way.

In a game full of symbolism, the Beginning and End are pretty important things.

Said symbolism is one of, if not the BIGGEST disagreement between the two of us. I don't use symbolism at all in my analysis, because it's often just plain wrong. Sometimes, when the author states the curtains are blue, it just means the curtains are blue. Period. Assuming symbolism is one of the fastest ways to be wrong. In fact, I'd argue that doing this is no different than what the alchemists did.

Have you seen The Beginner's Guide, Ferret? (The game. Made by the creators of The Stanley Parable)

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I make of point of debunking Sans’ statement that the only reason he didn’t kill Frisk on sight was because of a promise he made to a woman he didn’t know that was good at telling Knock Knock jokes later in the script. That statement has so many holes that the mouse could get cheese out of it.

Holes that I fill in... Later in the script. Around the same time you did. Since it was in response to that. And as a result, said statement still applies.

You’re assuming here that Frisk is the Anomaly. Are you sure it isn’t Chara? Sans says “That’s you, isn’t it?” while fighting Chara-possessed Frisk.

Not possessed just yet. Frisk still has full control over all of their actions, before the first strike. I took that exact same line as evidence that Frisk was the anomaly, rather than say, Flowey. -

You've proven that the lamp was made intentionally, for the purposes of hiding Frisk.. But not that Sans was the mastermind. Just that there WAS one, and it wasn't Papyrus.

Still, though, I don't have any better candidates, so I'm going with Sans.

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You think it’s as easy to beat Sans with a top HP of 20, vs 80+? Or having the frying pan equipped that increasing your item healing?

Now, now, I said with a bandage and a stick. I didn't say LV1. It's actually impossible to fight Sans at LV1, because the battle only occurs on a Genocide Route.

So the keychain on it was totally the original keychain on the phone Toriel gave Frisk.

Exactly.

Actually it would be interesting to see if Frisk could open San’s Lab on a second playthrough after doing a True Pacifist run and learning about the key.

If they can't, your theory crumbles. By the way, don't do a True Reset. Instead, do a regular reset, right after learning about the key. That way the game actually keeps the key having been collected registered. I'm nearly certain if you True Reset, the door won't open, as Frisk doesn't turn around for Sans early if you do that.

I have to wonder, though. The game made The Keychain and that fact that the key to Sans’ room was already on it important parts of the lore. If it wasn’t important.. Why not just have Sans give you the key when he deems you’re worthy of it?

This is Sans we're talking about. He likes pranking people across time and space.

Alphys makes a point of mentioning that Papyrus called everyone there “Except her”. And since Sans had been texting Toriel for some time, I take it he’s one that contacted her.

You're making an assumption. Yes, Papyrus called everyone except for Toriel. Why? Because Toriel came on her own, because she was worried about Frisk, as she said in the cutscene. There's nothing that states that anyone contacted Toriel at all!

Now, Papyrus says he summoned everyone because Flowey told him to. Which implied that Flowey -didn’t- tell him to do that on other runs.

Correct. And if you take a look at Flowey's Neutral Ending Speech, you'll notice that he's the one that tells Frisk about a better ending. He wants you to go for it, and he gives you hints on how to accomplish it. So the True Pacifist Ending is something he's planning for... And once you do everything he tells you to do (not kill anyone, befriend Papyrus, Undyne, and Alphys), everything falls into place. Someone (presumably Flowey) cuts the EM cable, forcing Frisk to explore the True Lab, not allowing them to turn back. After Alphys saves Frisk, the last entries that we get to see have a certain red face on them.. Specifically, the ones involving Flowey. =)

And right afterwards, you get the mysterious phone call, on your way up, which matches Hyperdeath Asriel's voice. And when you make it to New Home, the elevator is blocked with vines.

All of the evidence points to Flowey being the mastermind. Not Gaster.

Then how did Toriel know about Papyrus?

To quote Toriel:"Your brother has told me so much about you."

I'm not saying they didn't talk, Ferret! They talked through the door!

...Further on, though, you do make a point. Toriel should have been able to piece together that Papyrus was Sans' brother right after recognizing The Voice Behind The Door, not after the name drop. Though Toriel did have to ask if she knew him, so perhaps it's been a little while since they last talked. Perhaps she needed that little bit to spur her memory?

Here's what makes me think Toriel is new to texting:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IspJKGd18nE

(No, Toriel, lol means "laugh out loud". You are close, though.)

Why would The Silver Key Machine be the machine Gaster was using the observe the timelines?

What other machine could possibly be the one he used?

Gaster detected The Anomaly from his own world, and traveled to a different world to investigate it.

How do you know he traveled to a different world to investigate it? All the text says is that they discovered an anomaly-Timelines jumping left and right, starting and stopping.. And that "it's your fault, isn't it?"

You still hadn't presented a good case on why Gaster had to be from another world. And I'm not going to just believe a claim you make until AFTER you (or me, like I did to rule "previous king" out from the possibilities as to who the Royal Memorial was made for) provide evidence to back it up.

Why? Oh, just to avoid what could be circular reasoning. If you make claim A, use it to make claim B, and then use claim B to prove claim A, it looks like you've proven both, when you've really proven none.

It's best to start with the foundations, and build your theories off of them. It saves a lot of trouble.

So why doesn’t Asgore do that, too? Frisk had to tell Asgore how many times they had fought. But Sans is the one who tells Frisk how many times they had found.

Because Asgore isn't as smart as Sans.

Sans actually does eventually get mixed up, though. Take a look at some of the later ones, like nine times. By the time he reaches 13, he's completely lost. And I'm pretty sure Sans knows how to count. Gaster wouldn't hire someone who isn't smart enough to count past 12 to be a scientist, after all. But it DOES make sense for him to stop being able to read Frisk at that point.