Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-28175157-20160624105722/@comment-4560646-20160626233145

TheClever$ wrote: Let's begin with the fact that Chara was a murderer since the very beggining. Who wanted to kill innocent humans? Chara. And while Asriel does tell us that they hated humanity, it's still no excuse. This little thing still wanted to kill people who did nothing wrong. The motive? I have no idea, but it's not a good motive, that I'm sure of. Either for fun, out of hatred, any of those.

Undyne repeteadly tried to kill Frisk for their Soul, so the barrier can be broken and monsterkind can kill humanity. For some reason, she gets forgiven and Chara does not.

Mettaton hired mercenaries to kill Frisk, and later on tried to kill them himself under the guise of a TV show for their Soul, so he can leave monsterkind behind and become a pop star on the surface. For some reason, he gets forgiven and Chara does not.

Asgore killed six children for their Souls so he can break the barrier and kill humanity. For some reason, he gets forgiven and Chara does not. (Also, the main reason he went easy on Frisk is because Frisk resembles Chara, down to their same looks of hope. Telling, huh?)

Also, humanity did nothing wrong? Bahahaha! No. Don't make me laugh. Look around you - we humans do wrong things all the time. By comparison, monsters seem like very nice folk. By living with monsterkind, and seeing how they were condemned to suffer by humans, Chara naturally would develop a hatred of humanity. That, and as the monsters treated Chara nicely and kindly - which is strongly hinted to be much better than how humans treated Chara - they would want to repay the monsters' kindness by sacrificing themselves and getting six human Souls to break the barrier.

Also, why would Chara commit buttercup poisoning to kill themselves and let Asriel absorb their soul for FUN? Have you not heard of the sympthoms of buttercup poisoning? It's horrible! If Chara really wanted to kill humans for fun, they could just kill the Dreemurrs, absorb their souls, and then cross the barrier and go on a murder spree. But they resorted to killing themselves. Keep in mind that nobody - not even the monsters - knew that control of someone who absorbs a soul would be split(because, if they knew, then Flowey and Asgore would know better than to absorb the six human souls), so in Chara's point of view, they would just die off forever. And Chara wouldn't be able to kill all humans while dead, would they?

TheClever$ wrote: Chara laughed at the fact that Asgore, who acted as a loving father and only wished good for them, got sick because of them. According to what Asriel tells us, Chara was pretty insensitive and cold. Even before we "misguided" them.

Look at Toriel when she dies. She laughs. Look at Snowdrake's father on MTT Resort. He laughs at how his family broke apart(and then adds "That's not funny"). Look at Migospel. They laugh in spite of their life being painful. Laughing in Undertale seems to represent a way of coping with pain, and Chara's no exception. Plus, "laughing off" does not always mean doing an evil laugh(Seriously, if Chara really did an evil laugh, Toriel and Asriel would've known something's up with them - Jesus, they're not stupid!), it could imply they tried to diffuse the situation with butter puns(Chara is quite the punny person).

Also, when did Asriel say Chara was insensitive and cold? I've done the True Pacifist run seven times, listened to the tapes in the True Lab, and talked to Asriel in the epilogue, and he never said that. He only said "Chara wasn't the greatest person", which somehow is interpreted as "Chara was really a horrible person, geez I don't know how I lived with them". Seriously, Asriel is simply saying Chara's not perfect, something he clearly didn't realize when the two were alive: He idolized Chara, and brushed his personal opinions aside simply to satisfy Chara in an attempt to not disappoint them.

And then there goes Frisk. If the "Chara is the narrator" theory is true (which I highly believe is), then the Genocide narrator dialogue gives us enough proof to prove that Chara is as cold and insensitive as Asriel told us they were. The ACT options for the characters during a Genocide are all cold. Toriel's says "not worth talking to", that despite the fact she took care of us and acted as a mother to Chara in the past. Papyrus' says "forgettable", despite being an absolute cutie who offered a freaking hug despite the fact you're already a murderer. And so on.

Saying Genocide Route Chara represents pre-death Chara is tantamount to saying Flowey is exactly the same as Asriel. If what you're saying is true, then I'm free to say that Asriel would kill Asgore and insult Toriel, murder everyone countless times, and toy with the timeline for fun out of boredom, and that all of this is canon. See where I'm getting at?

Chara outright says in the Genocide Ending that they were confused("At first, I was so confused. [...] Why was I brought back to life?"). When they woke up within Frisk, they knew their plan had failed("Our plan had failed, hadn't it?"), and didn't know what to do. So they let Frisk take the front seat, and analyzed the kid's - and by extension, our - actions. Because we're doing the Genocide Route, we teach them that Power is everything - Power that is acquired by killing everyone. We show them that Asriel was wrong to spare the humans, that he betrayed Chara. (By contrast, True Pacifist teaches Chara that Asriel did the right thing) Knowing this, wouldn't Chara feel furious for being betrayed? They'd discount their anger on the monsters, believing they're backstabbing little twits, no better than the humans.

And if, for whatever reason, you decide to abort a Genocide Route, you show Chara that there are situations where you don't have to kill everyone. This calms Chara, and instead of being furious they just become pessimistic, and the game reverts to a Neutral Route. If Chara was like you said, then they'd force us to continue the Genocide Route. But they let us stop if we want to.

Chara still takes control of you from here to there. They make you skip Papyrus' puzzles because they believe he's a bother and have no time for his tricks; they don't let you decide. And that smiley face when you encounter a monster. You, Chara, or both, are happy because you're going to kill more.

See the above point. Here, Power is everything to Chara - anything else is not important to them, which is why they skip the puzzles. Ditto for the smiley face - they're eager to acquire more power, because as you've shown them, power is everything.

Also, why you consider Frisk advancing through Papyrus' puzzles mid-explanation Chara's fault, but when Frisk autonomously walks behind the lamp, follows Undyne in their hangout or advances defiantly toward Flowey in the Neutral ending suddently it's Frisk themselves? I myself believe that it's always Frisk moving between cutscenes, not Chara. Our actions in the game change Frisk, too - remember, Undertale is a Role Playing Game. Our actions shape our character. In Pacifist, Frisk is kind and brave, so they don't see much need to move, but on Genocide, Frisk becomes ruthless and uncaring.

Let's not forget that Asriel and Chara were good friends. According to the tapes, they were very close to each other, even though who knows if Chara was just faking that. But still, the mere fact that Asriel stopped Chara for murdering people is, apparently, enough excuse for them to murder their one and only friend savagely. Innocent? Of course. Chara is manipulative. They only wanted to see the flowers from above, they said, but when they got there, they used Asriel to kill people. Flowey also kept helping you all over the Underground, perhaps as some kind of repay, but Chara only took advantage of that without caring.

Chara only kills Flowey/Asriel in a Genocide Route, and as I said a few points above, they're furious with him because, according to you, Asriel betrayed them and was wrong for sparing the humans instead of killing them, which resulted in their pointless deaths. But even if you do a full Genocide run until Hotlands, then leave the kill quota unfulfilled - even if it's just one measly monster away - then they will not kill Flowey, because according to you, the "kill or be killed" rule is not absolute.

When was Chara manipulative? The "see the flowers from the village" thing was just an excuse to hid the plan from Toriel and Asgore. Asriel fully knew about Chara's plan, and even agreed to get the Souls("Six, right? We just have to get six..."). They didn't use Asriel, they were just fulfilling the plan. The problem is that, as I said before, Asriel idolized Chara and didn't want to disappoint them or contradict their intentions, so he lied about his true feelings. He didn't want to kill anyone, but for Chara's sake, he agreed with the plan. And when it was put in motion, he learned his painful lesson: Don't put your feelings aside to satisfy someone else's.

And I doubt you ever misguided this oh so innocent child. Chara supposedly follows you since the beggining, as the flower patch you fall on is where their body was buried. If you do a True Pacifist after a Genocide, then that should get Chara at least confused. First you kill monsters for fun, then you help them all you can and get them to become your best friends. No. At the end, Chara is still Chara. They're still Mr./Mrs. Psychopath.

...Have you even played the game? Not only does Chara get confused at your actions, they get outright angry at you, for abusing your powers irresponsibly.

Load the game after the Genocide ending. It confirms to Chara that you killed everyone simply for fun or out of curiosity, instead of for a mission like they believed. Seeing this, Chara says "It was you who pushed everything to its edge. It was you who led the world to its destruction. But you can't accept it. You think you are above consequences." By doing a Genocide run, then a Pacifist run, you are trying to get a happy ending even though you literally killed everyone for fun. For Chara, you don't deserve a happy ending after you did. Which is why they make you sell your Soul to recover the world, and taint the Pacifist ending: They're holding you accountable, and showing you that You are NOT above consequences.