Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20170811202619

3)The "Angel of Death" outlook is specifically stated to be a bleaker one. It's meant as sort of a prophecy twist. You're still "free", but is that really a good thing...? I'm going with what Gerson said, this angel of death is a harbinger of destruction. They're evil.

3.3)Exactly, I agree. 9999:99 is indeed all maxed out, the counter can't go any higher than that. I even stated that Flowey probably used his reset powers for well OVER a week, and it takes a little LESS than a week to max out the time like this.

3.5)500 undecillion joules is required to destroy the earth. (500 septillion terajoules) That's 5x10^38. 10^39 is twice that amount. If we divide 10^39 by 10^234, we get 10^-195. So the damage you did to Sans, being at 10 million damage? That would be 10^-188 joules. Not even a septillionth of a joule of energy, and still enough to kill Asgore. ...Yeah, that doesn't really fit.

But what if we say this child is no longer a regular human, but actually DID become a demon, supernatural abilities and everything, just as they claim? THEN perhaps they could destroy the world. Another possibility is that they are the physical manifestation of the feeling you get when a number goes up, like they say. What's the best manifestation of a number going up? What about maxing them all out with a bunch of 9's, and literally destroying the entire planet, or perhaps even greater than that?

3.6)Then why doesn't Chara remove the option starting with the second time? And why do they give you the option to take more than one Monster Candy?

3.7)He mentions being "empty inside", and likely because just like Flowey, you didn't seem to care at all for the monsters you just killed. He also said "your stolen SOUL", hinting that you stole someone else's SOUL. (Hey, they know you have a SOUL, they just showed you your SOUL at the start of the game. And at the same time, you seem to be souless. So, what reasonable explanation is there? It's not your SOUL at all, but stolen!)

4)No, Frisk doesn't turn into a heart, but the point is, we would still SEE that same effect if Sans activated the HUD and nothing else. What's actually going on is that the view simply shifted so that we no longer see Frisk, but our SOUL instead. Then it moves out of the body, to the bottom left, where the FIGHT button will appear. But we don't see this happening when Sans vanishes. Therefore, Sans had to have done something to blind us, other than activating the HUD.

4.1)It's simpler, yes, but we already have evidence of teleportation, and no evidence of duplication, and glitched duplication would prove that the game's code itself is canon. Basically, we get the very Glitchtale scenario we were trying to prevent!

4.2)We've also never mentioned anything about wanting to leave the underground. Also, the only reason why they all met uo for the fight is because Flowey told them all about it. " LET'S JUST SAY.. A TINY FLOWER HELPED ME!"

Yes, that is why Flowey says you haven't learned a thing. Refusing to kill Asgore means you're not following kill or be killed, and deciding to kill Asgore means you finally get it, you really are using "kill or be killed". But the very fact that Flowey is saying this solely depending on whether Asgore is killed or not means that he knows what you chose to do! So we can't say that he assumed you were going to kill Asgore and leave, if we know that he already KNEW that we were sparing him! Therefore, at least when you spare Asgore, Flowey kills Asgore to toy with you, and also perhaps to teach you a "lesson" on the "true" meaning of the world:Kill or be killed. And in BOTH scenarios, Flowey absorbs the human SOULS and turns into Omega Flowey to toy with you.

4.3)So.. Is every other main character ever (Except for Niko) a mindless zombie then? We technically don't exist in the story as our own separate entity. Frisk being some "toy" is not canon. We're supposed to roleplay it out. Even Frisk being a "toy" is separating us from Frisk in the game's lore. The game has no distinction between us and Frisk, just as there is no distinction from us and the hero in, well.. Any game! (Minecraft Story Mode? Is Jesse a zombie there?) The only way for Frisk to be a mindless zombie in Undertale is if WE are also mindless zombies. ...And I'm really not coming to that conclusion.. By the game's lore, we and Frisk are one and the same.

Also, you know how OneShot speaks to the player? By actually using the player's PC username. That's how we know that the Entity and Niko are speaking to YOU. What does Flowey call "you" by? Chara's name. The only way Flowey could be speaking to US here is if we are Chara, which doesn't make any sense whatsoever, since Chara speaks to us directly. If Flowey wanted to speak with you, he'd pull a OneShot and use your PC username. And while it describes us perfectly, it also describes Chara perfectly. Chara was there during the journey the whole time, and as far as Asriel knew Chara, they wanted to free the monsters, which is exactly what happened, so of course Flowey would expect Chara to be happy. And, since we've already established that CHARA has the power to SAVE, they also have the power to erase EVERYTHING. Also, the power to SAVE is not a power we've been figting to stop, most of us actually used the power to SAVE to our advantage, many, many times, so he can't be speaking to us. This is undoubtably a message to Chara. And remember, Chara's the narrator, always with us, inside of us. Therefore, if Flowey looks at Chara, Flowey would also be looking at us.

4.6)It's no plot hole-If having a shield is part of the green SOUL mode in the first place. And if you don't use your shield, Undyne's pretty much like "Seriously, human? You have a spear to block the attacks!" She wants it fair, so she actually tries explaining the rules to you.

4.10)She really didn't. If she did her research on determination, she would have even seen the Amalgamtes coming, since it was already a well-established fact that monsters don't have much physical matter. Probably why she thought of herself as a failure, she really messed up. I wouldn't be suprised if Alphys actually WAS planning on turning nearly all of monsterkind into persisiting SOULS, just so they could all leave. Either way, her experiments was an attempt to use the power of six human souls+monsters to break the barrier. How much of a failure of a plan that was only goes on to show that monsters really DID need seven SOULS to shatter the barrier. 250 years of trying otherwise won't change that. (They probably figured out you can't do that after Alphys' experiments failed.)

4.11)"Then it could just leave the body altogether to never take any damage, which would force monsters to attack the soul solely, which would cause it to shatter, which would mean Asgore would have to attack the body to make sure the soul stays intact, which would mean the soul could just return in order to mess up his plan and also to be able to reset the timeline once the body's dead, but since Asgore knew about the HUD, he would OBVIOUSLY know about this too, therefore he would have to somehow force the soul to stay out of the body to prevent it from shattering inside of it," You just described almost exactly what Frisk's SOUL actually does by my theory. I didn't spot a single flaw-It otherwise fits in with the evidence perfectly. Here's a few additions to explain some of the stuff that we left out, and to fix that flaw.

First, after you already hit the SOUL, the SOUL cannot just heal the body fully. At most, the body will only be healed as much as the SOUL already is. So if your SOUL is at half HP, your body will only be halfway healed. So attacking the SOUL itself will still damage you. So it's not like you can go back in your body to heal, then leave to esentially have infinite HP unless you're one-shot.

Second, the HUD ITSELF forces the SOUL to stay outside of the body, unless you sucessfully flee from, kill, or spare the monster. Asgore doesn't need to do this.

4.13)It's supposed to be compatible with the overworld, because the battle is supposed to take place in the area Frisk is in, not some other dimension with different laws of physics. If the box was made by Frisk to prevent themself from accidentially leaving, then it has no reason to exist when the SOUL is green. It would also be large enough to be just inside the edges of the screen, to give them freedom to move anywhere except for out of the battle, making it easier to dodge attacks. And once again, this is a problem with the THEORY you're presenting, not the actual game. Did we blame God when we discovered that Newtonian physics failed to account for rays of light being affected by gravity? (Something rather complex when compared to more common things) No, we made a new theory to actually explain this-Relativity. We need to follow in Einstien's ways, so our theories may also explain all the evidence-That's why I'm attempting to explain ALL the mechanics that are exploited by characters. (If it wasn't canon, Sans wouldn't be exploiting it, and neither would Lemon Bread. Take away those two from the game itself, and I wouldn't be saying that the box was meant to be canon. So we'd have two problems in the game.)

5.1)If we exist as our own separate entity in Undertale, than Frisk really would canonically be a mindless zombie, since they never disobey us, except maybe three times, which could also be Chara. In a Dungeons and Dragons campain, do we, the PLAYER (not the character we create), canonically exist within the STORY? It doesn't appear to be so. Are we literally inside of a D&D game? Also no. Are we carrying out actions that already are predetermined? No, we're choosing our character's actions (well, at least partially, the dice have a say too, specfically if we succeed or fail.) So what's the relationship between us and our player character? THAT is the relationship between us and Frisk.