Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27136653-20180228205701/@comment-32182236-20180313141017

"But the CORE is built to be touching the magma. So it cannot really be sitting high up on a cliff. But yes, perhaps the MTT resort was built as an extension of the CORE. Still, I don't see the point of building an entire powerplant in order to bridge two places. True, you would technically kill two birds with one stone by doing this, but logically, wouldn't the very first priority be to actually get to the other side first? Some easy access route must have been made first. And I take it this is how the monsters usually get around. There surely must be more to Hotland than those elevators. For example, houses and such. Surely the elevators aren't the only mean of transport between the places, the underground simply cannot be that linear. We just never had a chance to explore them."

I said the MTT resort is on the bottom of the cliff. Yes, it's actually on magma. Magma separates the two platforms. You have to get past the magma to reach.. A wall. To truly reach the other side, you have to reach high enough to get to where New Home is. Which happens to be the exact same height the elevator takes you to. (And if I had a way to, I'd just calculate that distance based on velocity/time. But I have no way to find out how fast the elevator was traveling, it's "velocity" Different eleveators have been travelling at different speeds).

That also means the monsters would have needed to build a bridge.. A bridge that wouldn't burn up by magma.. If they even wanted to REACH the wall to carve into stairs. So.. A stone bridge? (It can't be wooden. It would burn up.) ...What happened to that bridge? Why don't we actually see the bridge?

Yes, they have to get to the other side. ...That's part of what the CORE was made to do in the first place. Get to the other side. ..How would they have done it more efficeiently?

Why can't the underground be that linear? It's underground. Within a mountain. A lot of it, like the Ruins, is caverns. Caves are linear, why not the Underground? (Maybe this is how Mettaton is known by all the monsters-You have to walk through his resort to travel in and out of New Home. In fact, this detail was actually hinted at several times:https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Zll6YzVna3dZQms/0B6gS2LPXdIc5b2xkcTVISmZpLUU/0B6gS2LPXdIc5dmNyUWVCQUpRRDQ/0B6gS2LPXdIc5STZsekVqN0dyeFk/0B6gS2LPXdIc5clo3a0gwUUJVb0k?usp=sharing&sort=13&direction=a

12-13, 18-19. They each mention how since the elevator's not working, monsters are just staying at Mettaton's resort, rather than actually taking this easier path to New Home. My theory explains these lines simple-Such a path simply doesn't exist.

"How do you think the people who made the staircase in that image did it then? Surely THEY didn't start on the top. Plus, as I said, I don't think it's a vertical dropoff. I mean, we don't have any proof for that? There could be a safer passage somewhere, or a not-so-steep one that could be climbed much more easily. And actually, I am positive that there is one. Take the real world for example. Where does exist a natural rock formation that is just a straight dropoff all the way across? It's improbable. It's much more likely that the cliff formation allowed for an easier ascend SOMEWHERE."

Actually, them starting on the top was my hypothesis on how they did it in the image. It's possible to be stuck at the top of a cliff and have to find a way down without dying due to fall damage, and a way to get back up. How do we know they DIDN'T start at the top in this case?

"But even then, if it was just a vertical dropoff, it could still be possible to climb it by building scaffolds. I still don't understand why you would need to build a powerplant there in order to climb it."

Scaffolds are made of wooden plants and metal poles. And the cliff is right next to a pool of magma. ...It would burn up.

"Are you dumb? They're not safe because they don't stop. I just wanted to show that elevators that travel in multiple directions can be built. There's even one such elevator in the Eiffel tower. You however implied that they work only because the direction is vertical. Which is an idiotic claim for two reasons: Elevators that travel horizontally or combine multiple directions exist in real life, and elevators that travel horizontally exist in the game itself."

Have a better example of a moving elevator? And actually, I agrue elevators that travel horizontrally do NOT exist in the game. F1, F2, and F3 are all directly above each other in Hotland. The True Lab is directly underneath Alphys' lab. And that's about the only other instances of an elevator in the game. Oh yeah, the throne room elevator. Yeah, guess what-That's vertical too. If horizontal elevators did exist in the game, then yeah, there'd be NO reason to use the elevator as proof of a vertical cliff. It'd about as useless as using Sans' genocide battle as proof that Undyne knows about the HUD.

"Because you're clearly unable to present any good arguments here and are just nitpicking the silliest of things and saying that they prove you right, even if they have nothing to do with the topic."

An inconistency with the theory, no matter how small, is in fact enough to prove it wrong. Nitpicky or not, it's still a real problem with the theory. After all, the push from Netwonian physics to Einstien's physics was due, in large part, to a few minor nitpicky details it got wrong. Shouldn't we do the same thing here?

"You know what? I'll do exactly that. We've been debating elevators for long enough. Making structures to climb cliffs is easier than building an entire powerplant, the chance that there was a safer passage somewhere is much higher than if there was just a vertical dropoff all the way across, and the fact that they're using elevators doesn't prove that it is a vertical dropoff all the way across."

Wow! An actual good argument! (The one I bolded was the good argument.) Yes, this is in fact true. Why didn't I think of that? It can really only prove it was a vertical dropoff at that SPECIFIC part of it-Why not build your bridge somewhere else?

Though, the former.. Has its own problems. As we'd both agreed upon, the CORE didn't have those moving floors when it was first built. After all, 90's technology simply doesn't allow for this, and, as proven by Toriel's cell phone, that's about the technology level the monsters had. What's to say the CORE was always a power-plant? Why couldn't it have just been a means of transport at one point, and then turnd INTO a powerplant? Geothermal power was invented in the 1900's, but thay was using steam, not in LAVA. Lava was only used as power in.. This very decade! Which is past the 1990's. Hence, the CORE couldn't have started out this way.

So, time to shift the problem to where it actually exists. The fact that they literally have to cross MOLTEN LAVA to even GET to the cliff.

"Were any of your own history textbooks written that way? I don't think so. As I said, they do look like a personal documentation to me. But all of this doesn't matter anyways, because why exactly would the explanation need to be written before the actual events as you're saying? To my knowledge, there's no conventional rule that would say so, so I don't think this was Toby's intention. Besides, it is perfectly reasonable to first write the story and THEN the explanation. It could be done like this for the sake of continuity preservation. And I'm talking generally here."

Generally, you need to learn the prior knolwedge you'll need to understand something prior to giving the stuff you'll need to know to understand it. For example, you don't START with multiplication, and then say "yeah, what we're doing here is basically doing "addition" multiple times over, and ADDTION is..." Prior knolwedge comes prior.

"Alas, there's no proof that a part 9 ever existed, so Occam's razor, Chara's story is (was) contained in one of the missing volumes."

Well, it's a good thing that careful reading of my posts signifies a change in stance. Now I say that each individual part of Chara's story was in Volumes 6-8. Chara fell in Volume 5, Asgore and Chara's illness was Volume 6, Asriel crossing the Barrier was Volume 7, and his death was Volume 8. And, just like Volume 1 and (possibly) Volume 4, in the many pages of the book that we didn't read, because we're reading ONE page of a thick book. Of course, I say these events are told about directly after the explanation was given. For example, the quote about monsters being unexperienced with illness is directly followed by either Asgore or Chara getting sick. (More than likely Asgore)

"Which means that the volumes 6 to 8 also follow an event. Not that they preceed an event. And as you said, the date would be written in the passage that's talking about the event, and not in the aftermath passage. And logically, that would be true no matter what the event is. I don't think Chara's story is an exception to this rule."

It actually means neither. Remember, the page we opened up is RANDOM. It's equally likely for us to choose something directly before an event as it is for us to choose something directly after an event. I got volumes 6-8 preceding an event because of that whole "prior knolwedge" thing. But yes, the actual death of Chara likely had a date on it. Not the aftermath, and also, not the beforemath. #puns

"Also, if they stopped fearing the humans because there were no entrances or exits, then that would mean that nothing got through the barrier up to that point, not even trash. But as I showed, they got their technology FROM the trash. So when exactly did they think that nothing would be able to go through, if not here? Well, this is why I originally speculated that the hole wasn't there. In order to be so sure, they would have to look everywhere. And if they found a hole, they wouldn't be sure if something could get in, unless something fell flat on the barrier in the hole and stayed there. Which, of course, never happened. But if they didn't find a hole anywhere, they would DEFINITELY be sure that nothing can get in."

Which raises the question:If there was no hole AT ALL (sealed or not).. Then how did the monsters get underground in the FIRST place? Of we say there was a hole, but it was sealed up, it's easy-The barrier was made after the monsters were banished. That's it. Easy fix. But now...

Yeah, the trash was in Waterfall. They were sure no human would fall way back in the Ruins. Before they even GOT to Waterfall. So they wouldn't see the trash. Wait, Waterfall's exactly where the plaques were written in! Maybe that would explain it! During the writing of the plaques was when they found trash, and discovered that things CAN pass through the barrier! (Which means it probably came from the New Home hole.)

Also, what about the fact that nothing has gotten in for CENTURIES at a time? Why couldn't THAT have been what convinced the monsters that nothing can get through? Sure, sure, that's fallacious reasoning on behalf of the monsters, like with all seans being white. But, the monsters turned out to be wrong, so there had to be fallacious reasoning somewhere... (Besides, humans have used fallacies like that before, so why not monsters?)

"They explain history, so whoever compiled them called it the "Monster History." Why is this so hard to understand for you?

And exactly, they're the only ones you could find. You're using induction to prove that relabelling can never happen. Just like the people in the past used induction to deduce that there are only white swans. Oh wait what's this?"

I'm actually using induction to deduce that the standard for compilation is you don't relabel. There'd be a standard for this sort of thing, and we've already proven the standard isn't "you relabel it", because we have clear cases of it NOT being relabeled. (And zero cases of it being relabled) So.. Why not use Occam's Razor and say "wait, this is called monster history. Could it be that hey, maybe this was actually supposed to be about monster history?"

"What I meant by that is that the way the events are described makes it look as if the books were written around that time, not in the present. It makes sense to write it this way if some monster was telling this to Frisk for example, but the little things such as the remark about Asgore's naming skills really makes it look more personal and subjective than it should be."

Those remarks are partly what made me think Gerson made it. They're nearly identical to his remarks. Of course, Gerson being the only historian we know about is the stronger evidence here. After all, there's probably MANY more monsters who make fun of Asgore's names. After all, just about everybody noticed that "Librarby" was spelled wrong.

"No, that's the point of this discussion. Not something we can or cannot say. And the script was changed to match the current one they're writing in. Not the other way around. Heh, I mean, why would they change it to some writing that is by the looks of things no longer in use? Or maybe, it is, since the narrator said that we can 'just make out the words,' which is implying that the ancient script consisted of at least the same letters as the current one. Real world examples of completely readable scripts that are no longer in use are scripts such as the Carolingian Miniscule or Blackletter."

Yep. But I meant less in the terms of "make it outdated", and more "if the compiler wanted to make it explain history better, why can't we say the purpose of the complied version is to explain history better?" Wait.. You meant "font" when you said "a change in script", didn't you? I thought you meant script, as in-Scripts we use in movies, speeches, writing, and so on. Yeah, my point's null, in that case.

"He retreated with them, we know that, since he was there. Logically, he WOULD know how they retreated. So why are you saying he didn't? He clearly did. And what even is your point? So it takes months to write a book, so what? He is at least a thousand years old, he had plenty of time. Besides, who said HE wrote the books? As I said, it's more likely they're just compilations."

Not enough to explain the process in detail, since all we get is that they retreated. Hmm, I wonder if that's the fuzzy memory coming into effect here? That's usually how fuzzy memory works (if it's just the case of time passing, and not something else entirely), you remember the overall event, but most of the small details are forgotten. And yes, he did have time. Yes, he wrote the book. I'm saying, that since he can remember again within a day, and it took months to write the book, he'd have time to remember enough details to make an accurate book explaining them. Hence, the "he couldn't have made the books because fuzzy memory" is null and void.

"Sure. He shifted. But I don't think he started writing educational books. Maybe he was simply taking notes. That's the least he would have done. But no, I don't think he wrote the books. And he definitely didn't write all of them. That's just not likely."

...And, why not? He's the only historian in the entire game.

"And so, if he didn't write all of them, it makes sense to question whether he really did write even a single one. Could it be that his notes were merely incorporated into the books, which were written by someone else?"

Which means we can also use that argument in reverse. If he wrote a single one, it makes sense to say he could have written all of them. Why? Well, for the same reason why him not writing all of them would make you question him writing even one. (Which is more than likely the fact that they're volumes of one, continuous series. That's the best argument I could think of that would support not writing them all meaning you probably didn't write even one)

"It isn't tho? Most monsters we meet are quite young. Toriel and Asgore are the exception of age, yes, but Gerson is a turtle. You know, one of those creatures that live extremely long? Boss monsters are implied to have infinite timespans. But Gerson is the only monster we know of that is that old. Undyne even emphasizes that he fought in the war, as if it was something unique. Monster timespans are weird, yes, but really, the only people we know are really old are Toriel, Asgore and Gerson. No one else. So I wouldn't say it applies to everyone. Simply because boss monsters naturally do that, and turtles are implied to do that. If you find an instance of a monster that isn't implied to do that actually doing that, then I shall count that as a point for you."

Undyne emphasizes Gerson fighting in the war, because Gerson is what inspired Undyne to want to fight in the first place. He was the Hammer of Justice after all, and there's only one of those. ("THE Hammer of Justice) Isn't that unique enough?

Also, those three monsters are the only ones we know the lifespan of PERIOD. Except for Papyrus, who wasn't around to see a human. For all we know more than half the current monsters were there when the war happened. We can't say that since there's no proof they're over 1000 years, they HAVE to be under 1000 years. After all, there's no proof that they're under 1000 years either, and we already have a clear example of someone being over 1000. So.. Shouldn't we just use Occam's Razor here and say 1000's the norm? Also, Gerson's a monster, not a turtle. Undertale's a game driven by story and mechanics, not by vague symbolism. After all, we don't see Asgore and Toriel doing goat things, or Papyrus being spooky/scary because he's a skeleton.

"Alrighty. So back to the point. If the books are arranged encyclopedically, I wonder then why do they start with the war, instead of explaining what monsters actually are? Or... do they explain that? Keep in mind that a random page could very well be the first page. So this indeed could have been the beginning of the book. But whatever. All of this aside, this is the monster history. It would make no sense if it started by explaining something totally unrelated to history for each chapter. I don't remember my history books doing that. So no, I don't think there's any volume number 9."

It probably did. Just like how some history books begin with the Evolution of Man. So.. we could have started with monster evolution.. If that's even a thing..?

Also, while not related to history directly, it contains the knolwedge you will need to UNDERSTAND the history. Remember, prior knolwedge should be explained prior.

"Yes. Not really history now, is it? As I said, these passages were a footnote explaining the text they talked about previously. Not something needed to be understood before continuing. Mixing soul mechanics and history together doesn't seem likely here. Especially if the title is "Monster history" and not "Everything about monsters."

They're still discussing prior events, so yes, it is history. The reason why Asgore didn't capture Chara's SOUL would indeed be related. Failure to explain this would make this look like a huge blunder on Asgore's part, despite the fact that it wasn't. And remember, the mechanics were only in the book to explain the history.

"Also, the fact that it is called "monster history" and not "our history" reinforces my point. There is a clear discrepancy between the point of narration here. So whoever compiled these was not the same person that wrote those individual lines."

.."Us" is clearly referring to the monsters. The name likely originates from Volume 1, which would have begun with the monsters explaining things like where they came from (monster evolution?), why they call themselves the monsters, and so on. Here, they'd mention the name of monsters.. And now that we know that, we just start using "us" rather than "monsters" because "us" is six letters shorter. ..You know, for the same reason why we use pronouns instead of repeating a noun over and over again? (..What, were you expecting me to say "for the same reason why HUMANS use pronouns"?)

"Entrances, not holes. And also, as I said many times, they did not have to enter through the Ruins hole. They could have entered from the other end just as likely."

Even if they fell through the New Home hole, we'd have the same problem. The New Home hole would serve as living proof that a natural hole did indeed exist. That the underground DOES have a natural entrance. Hence, to say it doesn't, must be meaning simply that said entrance(s) have been sealed off.

"And yeah, you're correct. So then, I have one more question. Why were they afraid of the humans? Was it because they knew from the very beginning that the humans could enter through the barrier, or because the humans had the power to undo the spell? (presumably)"

It's less that they knew from the start (they didn't, the plaques debunk this), and more so that they didn't know at all. They thought that humans could, because hey, why say they can't without any evidence? Why would they just assume they can't just right away? They weren't sure. So, they feared the worst, and retreated. And they were right.

Many years passed, without anyone falling. This is when they started to figure "hey, the humans PROBABLY would have attacked by now if they could. So.. The barrier PROBABLY sealed them off too. So, we have nothing to worry about! Let's move out of HOME!" Then, during the journey, the plaques were written. Of course, that assumption was utterly WRONG, as proven later on by Chara.

Speaking of which, maybe there was a compliation, and the plaques themselves were the original source. After all, the plaques use a very similar style to the history books, and Volume 7 is almost an exact copy of certain plaques. Maybe your theory has points after all. Either that or Gerson just copied what the plaques said, because they already served as a good explanation.

"Which is why I originally speculated that they were written in different time periods. Obviously this contradiction is so obvious that no single person would have made it. But all of this begs another question. How the hell did they figure all of this out? https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5U2pIcGxMQ1NzdHM

Surely the humans didn't tell them, and there's no possible way they could have tested this out either. I'm thinking those plaques that talk about leaving the barrier were written after Asriel died, the very last one is the most ancient one, when they didn't even know that stuff can pass through, but the one that talks about destroying it... I just. I have my own headcanon about this, but it's some borderline alternative universe stuff."

The last ones start with a "But". They had to have been preceeded by other ones. Putting it in full context, it says that they will remain trapped forever, because a human cannot fall. Because they can't, due to no entrances or exits. As if, they would need a human to fall to leave.. Which takes us to the one about reversing the spell, which is actually quite easy to deduce. The spell was made by seven mages, right? So, wouldn't it be quite logical to assume that you would need the same amount of power, that of seven human SOULs, would be what you need to undo it? Of course, things about beings with a powerful SOUL being able to leave, and anything being able to pass through the barrier would indeed have to be written after the death of Asriel, for this to make sense.. Except not really-That merely shifts the problem. Chara ALSO knew that Asriel would be able to cross the barrier with Chara's SOUL. How did they know that, if it wasn't known at the time? The monsters had to have figures that out a different way. But.. How? *True Lab theme*

"Actually, take all of those images, but leave out the 3rd one. Suddenly, the paradox is gone. And the 3rd one is the one I'm speculating was written after Asriel's death. So then the question is, why are they arranged in this way? Perhaps the 3rd one overwrote a different one, that said how no one can leave no matter what. That would make sense. Something like "There's no way to bypass this spell. For us to leave, the spell would have to be reversed." would be the 3rd one. The ancient 3rd one, that is."

Or, it was changed from "nothing can enter" to "anything can enter" after they found trash in Waterfall, and deduced that stuff can pass through the barrier. Though, of course, it likely got changed AGAIN to its current form about how things with a powerful SOUL can also leave after they figured it out somehow.

"So, whoever overwrote that one didn't bother with continuity, which is why we now have the paradox. They merely wanted to correct the 3rd plaque. But then that begs yet another question. Why were the others not overwritten? Well... why were they written there to begin with? For everyone to gaze upon while passing through Waterfall? I really think that this route that we took in the game was not frequented at all, else none of these plaques would be there today most likely. Heck, the Nice Cream dude overwrote one of them himself."

Yeah, it's likely monsters of this era don't really care for the plaques anymore. And yeah, a lot of the monsters probably rode the riverman's boat instead to get from place to place. After all, it is free, tra la la."

"So yeah. I think some wise monster remembered these when he learned what exactly happened (so he knew that Asriel absorbed the soul) and took the time to find this plaque and change it. Technically, he/she/it/wut had no compelling reason to change the one that said no human would come down there."

Yeah, it was common knolwedge that a human could call, due to Chara.

"But that one about reversing the spell, I just..."

Seven mages, seven SOULs.

"Are you testing my patience again, dearie? .3."

Ahuhuhu! Baking them into a pie.. Is that not the same as the human stepping on the spiders? (Because I'm pretty sure that was meant to be a Muffet impression)

"Anime isn't recorded. Anime is animated."

Yeah, of course anime isn't real.

"Undyne believes what she sees, that humans literally wield giant swords and are capable of mind manipulation. Take it that she considers this as some sort of a documentary insight into humans' lives. She doesn't think anime itself is real. That would be impossible anyways."

Impossible with current technology, yes. That's why I said she must have believed that the technology used to make such a thing was far superior to monster technology. Also.. she literally goes "ANIME IS REAL, RIGHT"?! I don't think she even understands the concept of animations. After all, if she knew anime wasn't literally recorded, maybe she'd have more sense in her and realize that hey, if they made up the events, why not all the tech and stuff there too? Besides, I don't see any lasers in the trash bin. But I'm sure there's lasers in an anime, that maybe Undyne thinks monsters copied off of!

"So does that mean then, that the only piece of modern technology in the entire underground is that giant sword she made with Alphys? Is this what she's been referring to when she talked about 'modern technology?'"

No, it means Undyne has a very twisted view on what constitues as "modern technology". Of course the giant sword isn't modern technology, let alone the ONLY ONE. But, anime isn't real, either.

"But wait! She said the garbage dump is the sole reason the monsters have modern technology. Not that she does (she actually said "we," but it was to Frisk over the phone, so she meant the entire monster population by that presumably). So, did she make swords for everyone or something then? I don't think so. Asgore certainly doesn't know what anime is, so this clearly isn't a technology that the monsters are employing. So logically, she must have been calling something else modern here, not the 'anime tech.' Which disproves your claim."

She didn't. She fallaciously linked the ACTUAL development of modern tech to the anime that portrays it. And also to the fact that in order for anime to be real, someone would have to record the events of the anime, which I already mentioned would require technology far superior to what we have today. If anime somehow WAS real, the humans would have to be FAR ahead of technology than even the monsters. And this is the chain of logic I think Undyne used, to conclude, that we're behind humans in tech, and we got everything from them.

"No, Undyne doesn't think that the 'concept' of anime is real. She merely thinks the things she sees in it are real."

Actually, the concept of anime is real.. It's a type of animation. Yes, she things the things she sees in it are real. The events we see being real. And, aince she things these events are real.. The real deal.. That means they had to have been recorded. (Or, you know, Undyne was just DEAD WRONG, but Undyne's not going to accept that! So Undyne chooses the former!)

"Not all trash is anime my dude. There's literally a computer down there. Also, some astronaut food. Though I doubt that one has any scientific value. Also, Catty and Bratty don't know anything about anime. They merely know that Alphys likes to collect it."

They also collect trash themselves to sell, and call it valuable. Of course, none of it is anime.

"So yes, duh, of course they used the trash. Since how else would they get all their modern technologies, amirite? ;D"

By.. Actually inventing it?