Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20180104155430/@comment-32182236-20180923005801

So, first thing's first-Chara didn't try to kill themselves. They FELL, they didn't jump. Look at the intro again-They tripped. The Kickstarter story elaborates more on this.

"They're shy at first (as can be seen by the picture hiding behind flowers.) likely due to all this abuse.  But they grow to gain confidence and determination, just like how the narrator gets more chatty as they get to know you, Chara began interracting with the monsters they know everything about them, they become everybody's favorite as can be seen by their story in pacifist, Asgore even says they gave off a feeling of hope when one looked into their eyes."

This is true when it comes to their interaction with the monsters when they just fell. The part about Frisk? ...There's no hint of an increase in being chatty over time.

"They fulfill the prophesy of the Angel, they live in old Home with the Dreemurs (despite the RUINS castle not having proper accomedation for an extra child, but they are ere as "My drawing"-Chara can be seen in Room_Asriel of the Ruins.)."

"My drawing" is in NEW Home, not the Ruins. In fact, you can't even access the drawing in the Ruins. Also, they don't fulfill the prophecy of the Angel, that's Asriel who does that, and that's FAR later on in the timeline. Like, that's the True Pacifist Ending. Chara DOES fulfill it in the Genocide Ending, but once again, far later on the timeline.

"Toriel, being Toriel does all they try to do with Frisk in the future, they prepare a curriculum always wanting to be a teacher, and sure enough they bond, Chara copies her greeting, Chara copies her speech mannerisms, learns decipline ("concequences") and has quite to vocabulary for a child of their age, becoming educated."

Our backstories match here. And they continue to match, all the way until... actually right below what I just quoted.

"They Inspire everyone to fear Humans less"

They don't inspire them to do that. They do display hope to everyone, but I don't think they were trying to show that humans can be good. They just.. did, because being good when you're a human will do that.

"they move from the end of the cave all the way smack dab in front of the Barrier, no longer afraid, they move to new home!"

The journey to NEW HOME happened before Chara fell. There are ancient plaques in Waterfall that say that no human will ever fall, and thus, they'll be trapped. This assumption was proven wrong when Chara fell, dating the plaques to before Chara fell, which means the monsters had already traversed Waterfall before Chara fell, and had no reason to fear the humans that they "knew" weren't coming.

"Chara also stops fearing humans, learning of the story of Monsters, I believe that's when they were inspired to truly HATE Humanity now, with a vengence."

I believe they knew the story BEFORE then. But, they only heard it from the humans' perspective, and were probably shut out when they tried asking questions about the motivations of the humans, or about why they didn't work something out with the monsters, or...

"And knowing of the Monsters plight and what can be done to save them, and after making that mistake with Asriel (they're just KIDS) of mistaking buttercups for cups of butter and poisoning Asgore. A plan solidifies (after they get over the grief that drives them mad with crazed laughter from almost killing their "Mr. Dad guy" (aw soo shy.)".  (I say this because it's Interesting how in Undertale, laughter is never associated with happiness, all laughing characters from Sans to Snowdrake's dad are in pain when they laugh. Chara is likely the same.)"

Sans also laughs at bad puns. And Chara seems to like puns as well:Perhaps they laughed at "butter cups". ...Of course, as a coping mechanism, by turning this horrible incident into something funny.

"Fueled by a love of Monsters, a Hatred of Humans and Self-hatred due to being a human and almost killing Asgore( they do seem to obsessed with concequences and retribution.) probably, they'll poison with those same flowers themselves intrusting their soul to their best friend, they tell him all about their plan, to free everyone, to be strong together (as both Monsters and Chara suffered under Humans for being weak that's probably where Chara's idea of stregnth comes from.) to eradicate the Humans."

Self-hate had nothing to do with it. There's a pretty good reason why they decided on buttercups, and only after they found out what happened to Asgore. http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/136654973560/death-by-buttercups-but-why

"Asriel does not like the idea of killing people, so Chara insists they'll just kill the six needed, and Asriel agrees, shakily. The plan is underway but Chara has one last plan for their body, to be laid to rest in the middle of town the very center, over flowers as if to say "look at what you did"."

...Pretty sure A-Based on what they know, humans don't like monsters, and this would cause them to jump to conclusions and say Asriel killed the child, and B-How are the humans supposed to know THEY caused that?

"(Why do I reason this? Buddy, if Chara really wanted the villagers to attack, they could have mutilated their own body in front of them, faked an attack on their corpse; all they did was carry it to the golden flowers."

I think we already talked about how this isn't what I meant. They were trying to show Asriel that humans were bad, and doing all that would ruin the point. It'd make the humans' attack jusfied, and Chara wants Asriel to believe humans were the bad guys here, believing that themselves. They were showing Asriel the reason why they hated humanity.

Chara:Asriel, they're trying to kill us. The war hasn't ended yet. Now do you see why we need to kill them?

"and this is how Asriel gains the idea that Chara is not "the greatest person" especially since they refuse to tell Asriel why they hate Humans so much..."

The reason was RIGHT THERE, Asriel!! I tried to SHOW you, but you obviously didn't get the hint!! ..And now you got us killed? ... Traitor.

And now our two backstories converge again. And it stays that way for a while. I'll just fast-forward to where we have another problem.

"And of course all the Flowey stuff happens."

Yeah, but you got the order wrong. That was AFTER the six humans came and left. ..But beyond that, we still agree, all the way up until..

They couldn't control their body at first, though. They don't have a SOUL, and without a SOUL, they don't gain partial control over the body just yet. They will eventually in Genocide, though.. We'll get to that soon.

"They also know this body is not their own, it even asked a question which they decided to answer, leading to that first narration."

As in-How did you not get hurt from the fall?

"Interestingly, it's spoken in parenthesis. This usually happens when a character is whispering or speaking low. As I said, Chara is shy towards new people."

What? I don't see where you got that idea from-I saw it as something exclusive to Chara.

"Chara, is fused with Frisk in the same way they were fused with Asriel, they (as can be seen by many examples of narration.) can feel what Frisk feels. They describe Frisk's new feelings to them, in this strange and confusing new world."

Yes, they ARE fused.

"Seeing the ruins looming above fills you with Determination!" then they tell you "File saved." (Interesting, it's almost as if this file isn't Frisk's well duh, "Chara", they share Chara's it seems. (Interesting how Chara knows about this though... have they Saved before?)"

They probably have-They used to have a SOUL of DT, and there has to be a reason why they show up in the stat screen. But I don't see how Chara's implying this isn't for Frisk to save.

"What happens next depends on your route, not knowing what to do, Chara decides to help you, giving you options, just to see what you would do."

...Why?

"This ultimately tested with Toriel, when one more human comes and tries to leave again, she snaps. (Heartache plays), deciding to scare them into submission. Why does she snap, well Asgore does say they look alot like Chara. Maybe the thought of Frisk dying, when they look so much like them, lead to her snap. Chara dying again."

Or because you're the seventh human and she doesn't want Asgore's plan to succeed:

"Listen to me, small one... If you go beyond this door, Keep walking as far as you can. Eventually, you will reach an exit. ... .... ASGORE... Do not let ASGORE take your soul. His plan cannot be allowed to succeed."-Toriel

"Can you show mercy without fighting or running away...? 

Why? Because you are proving something, something Chara was curious about. Whether or not Asriel was right. This what this helping thing is all about, really. They likely reason that the reason they are alive again was to see if this is right."

Well, can you? And remember, you can't talk to her! What else can you do?

A FROGGIT is more helpful than Chara is here. Because a Froggit practically spells out the solution, saying one day, you'll meet someone who you'll have to spare even when the name isn't yellow.

"And they also gives an Adorable description of Toriel "Knows best for you." Aww, loves Goat mom. Mother knows best!"

I suppose:SHE isn't the one who got them both killed after all.

"If you choose MERCY and go pacifist, the narration gets happier and happier, they start joking around with you and helping you as much as they can(which has it's faults the narration can be wrong. "Monster candy non-licorice flavor ... tastes like licorice", it's about more than the test now, they want to help you, you great merciful bastard!"

They do in fact joke around with you, but they give you statistics no matter the route.

"Though they seem to skimp out of the help when Asgore appears, perhaps they are worried you won't be able to mercy him."

You CAN'T MERCY him, though. And Chara makes this clear after 9 ACTs. Unless you mean after you defeat him, but at that point, there's no room for narration.

"Though this seems to be a pattern with all the Dreemurrs, their family. Maybe they're worried you won't and will kill them. But you don't!"

You DO fight him, though.

"And Asgore proclaims, that you paci-frisk remind them so much of the Human that fell here, Chara after their spiel about how he never wanted this, he just wanted revenge for the deaths, and just wanted the underground to Hope again after they lost it when Chara died."

Yep. They were friendly when they were alive.

"All the way to the end, where, when you can do nothing, they help you SAVE your friends with the SAVE option and use their memories to bring Asriel back."

...Okay, where'd you get the idea that they created the SAVE option from? That's just as ludicrous as the idea that they created the FIGHT button, or are the reason behind not even HAVING the MERCY button in Genocide Asgore's "fight" (The real reason according to my theory:LOVE 20)

"Happy as can be. "It's you, Frisk!" they proclaim in the end when you look at your reflection."

Just wait until AFTER all of that. Listen to Flowey's conversation with Chara that happens at the very end. It implies that Chara wants to RESET, because Flowey's begging them not to, and says that Chara's probably listened to it a hundred times. Of course, that's our choice, not Chara's.

"If you choose FIGHT to the point of killing but don't kill everyone, Neutral.They become, dissapointed in you, from then on the Narration becomes very very pessimistic and simple. No jokes. No extra hints."

Serious Mode doesn't activate because of that. The usual jokes do in fact remain.

"This can be seen with the dog food bag, "(It's a half empty bag of dog food.)"  In pacifist this is "( It's a bag of dog food, it's half full.)"

You can't exactly eat dog food, so that's just a change in terminology.

"Why is Chara so depressed? Because you just proved Asriel was wrong, Mercy is not always the answer, and they died for nothing."

Pretty sure this was Chara's initial point of view in the first place. ...And thus, by conclusion, Asriel's a "traitor".

"Another thing to note is this change in narration is not spurred on by LV but by kill count. If you go neutral but kill over 21 people including Doggo, the dialogue becomes (It's a half empty bag of dog food.) (You just remembered something Funny!) Suddenly Doggo's death becomes funny."

Therefore, the theory that LV corrupts them is incorrect.

"It seems Their view on the world is directly changed by how much you kill.
 * If you kill no one, they’re optimistic. They don’t want you to kill."

The latter has no evidence to support it. And I already talked about the "pessimistic" part.

"*If you kill over 20 people then they can be sadistic, even on a non-genocide route.

The dog bag becomes funny. This is directly affected by killing Doggo and killing more than 20 people. The narrator doesn’t find his death funny before 20 kills. Something has changed in them."

"(You noticed something funny.)"

It's not suddenly funny to Chara, it's suddenly funny to FRISK.

"If you choose FIGHT and go GENOCIDE, this is further expressed, Chara begins to count how many people you need to kill, LOVE rises, something interesting happens. LOVE, it measures one's capacity to hurt. The more of it the have, the less you care."

True. But it also does something else, in Chara's case...

"Over the run a smiley face starts to appear whenever you encounter someone, and Chara starts becoming impatient, they narrate things as vaguely as they can and snap at you if they already read it, they will take control of YOUR BODY to force you to skip the dialogue of characters, and will say they are not worth talking to or remembering."

That's more than likely Frisk themselves, sort of like how they hit the Mad Dummy changes based on LV.

"They begin acting like a speedrunner when they narrate, "Where are the knives!" "I've read this already." and they begin to act like this is a mission, "Missed that Comedian. Failure." Interestingly they still keep their sense of concequences even after losing their morality, if you check the presents they say "None for you!"."

Too bad we can't just take them like we take things from those three stores.

"Interestingly, sensing this behavior, Flowey begins to think you are Chara(he also does in pacifist but less confidently.). Many take this to mean they know Chara was evil in life but no, no, it's because you are acting like him, soulless, and they expected that if Chara returned like he returned they would be soulless due to the fact they died together."

And Flowey was correct.

"Which is why he is confused by the pacifist run."

He's not confused, he's in fact LESS confused, because he gets right away that we're NOT Chara.

"And that would happen at the castle.  "My drawing." "Still has that sweater." "No chocolate" "..." The memories are flooding back!"

They've always HAD those memories.

"It still isn't enough to change them back from Sadist mode, they're too far gone."

It never was.

"Then comes the fight with Sans."

The point in time where Chara can finally take control. ..Well, not quite, the creepy face was probably Chara as well, but that's also LV19. You see, according to Chara themselves, when a number goes up, that feeling.. That IS Chara. You see, after they died, and came back, they came back without a vessel. They're not even a human anymore.. But rather, a demon. They're the manifestation of stats increasing. Now, how do you increase your stats? By increasing your LOVE. So, as your stats increase, they gain more power... Until eventually, they can start taking control over you.

"Where he talks about knowing what we are through "our" (Gaster's theme plays in my head) reports. Knowing how the timelines end and how it all works. About how he tried to befriend us to stop all this but now that it's coming, despite being depressed due to this knowledge he can't sit back and relax."

Yep. He can't afford not to care anymore.

"And all the while, interestingly, while still helping you, Chara can't help but taunt you "KARMA flowing through your veins", the one thing that doesn't change is Chara's belief in concequences."

They're just narrating what's happening again.

"After killing Sans, Asgore says hello, but when he looks at you.. he doesn't know WHAT we are, when before he could see their human child, Chara, in our eyes."

Because at this point, this ISN'T the Chara he knows.. Chara, the demon, has taken over at this point. Paci!Frisk is in fact closer to the Chara Asgore knows.

"Then gets murder and it all comes to a head."

Then Flowey's next.

"But I must stress something, LOVE isn't actual power, rather it is a measure of the capicity to hurt, that is, the MENTAL stregth comes from being detatched and having no connection to anyone no matter the relation even being another person."

This is indeed usually the case. Chara's an exception, as their speech points out.

"Being able to kill without fear. The physical strength comes from the fact that kind of thing cuts through Monsters like a knife through butter. The children aren't actually stronger."

Yep. It's just your CAPACITY to hurt.

"This can be seen with Flowey. "Let's erase everyone, everything in these worthless memories!""

...How is that showing this again?

"Chara then tells them about their new plan to erase this world and move on to the next."

Okay, Chara, I accept. *evil grin*

...Alright, there we go.

"Knowing there is no reason to your killing, that you did it because you wanted to, they begin to lecture you, their belief in concequences returning in full force. YOU destroyed the world YOU set off this chain of events."

They give this same lecture even if you AGREE to destroy the world. Explain that!

"Again, if you do another genocide they talk about how you showed them the meaning of their second life, so much so they claim that the very feeling of gaining power is who they are."

They say that the first time as well. And this is in fact true.

"It's ultimately all a metaphor for an RPG character, you name them, you make them kill, you turn them into demons that come when people call their (given) name, and you raise their stats, the stats that come with your character, that define your RPG character. "That's me (name).""

At least they're saving the world from the Big Bad. *brushes off the dead orcs, goblins, skeletons..*

"But then tells you how you don't believe in this philosophy yourself, that you are strange and filled with a perverted sentimentality Chara, soulless, cannot understand. And so digusted, they recommend you do pacifist before erasing the file."

I wanted even MORE power, Chara! I didn't know recreating the world would strip me back to LV1! And I wouldn't have even CHOSEN to do that if YOU would just open the passageway to another world for us to travel to together!

"We'll be together forever, won't we."

Yeah, we're kind of stuck together in this world.