Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190617222636/@comment-32182236-20190708231215

And Toriel is the only one who could have delivered the Fallen Down Vegetoids to Alphy's lab. The same vegetoids that became part of Snowdrake's Mom.

I still don't see why it can't be a New Home Vegetoid. They do exist.

When Alphys, who has almost complete knowledge of everything that happens in the Underground due to her camera system.. as well as knowledge that Sans was the one who contacted Toriel instead of Papyrus.. claims not to know who Toriel even is...?

Alphys only says that Papyrus called everyone here... Except for Toriel, because Toriel says she came on her own.

If Toriel truly did come on her own because she was worried... That would still exclude Toriel from the list of people Papyrus called.

Also, the RUINS door is one-way, and we don't see any cameras in the Ruins. Just everywhere else. She wouldn't see Toriel in the Ruins. -

It goes with the cowboy hat, so it might hail from the Wild West. The Steam Badge does make it look a lot like a six-shooter. But we're not actually in The Wild West, because now it's an antique.

WE'RE not in the Wild West. I'm not dating Frisk's fall, I'm dating the Justice Human's Fall. We already dated Frisk's fall-It's the modern era. And I argue that the Justice Human did fall during the Wild West-Back when it wasn't an antique. Which means it probably wasn't the last before Frisk.

Which would make Chara's fall earlier than that.

I'm still curious how Frisk manages to damage monsters with a gun that is stated to have no ammo.

Maybe by slamming the gun itself on the monster's head?

...Really, though. The Sans fight makes the mechanics of fighting canon. The rules of turns, the buttons, etc... Are all canon. And I think it's a byproduct of evolution.

In the first image of the intro, we see a human weilding a weapon by their left hand. Which is rather strange, because left-handed humans are quite rare.

But it's not just the first image. In the image of the war.. The humans are still holding weapons with their left hand.

Now, where is the FIGHT button on the battle screen? The left. Who has initiative in battles? Humans. It's quite clear why the humans won.

Back in the state of nature, monsters and humans probably would have preyed on each other. ...Okay, probably just humans preying on monsters for the magical loot, as on their own, they probably don't know magic, and human food for monsters.. Well, you've seen how good it is. Insta-healing... And it's something they can't create of their own. Any non-magical species would eventually want to steal such food from them. Before humans and monsters met, monsters didn't HAVE the ability to take out your SOUL in the first place. They were the only ones with SOULs, so the ability was useless. Why would they evolve such thing before? So the first humans to take monsters' food did so successfully. So the monsters had three options:Find some way to hide themselves and their food, evolve to be stronger... Which would take away from their magical potential, as it requires more physical matter, or just learn to use another spell-A cheap way to basically instakill the humans.

...Evolution only cares about survival. It doesn't lean towards what's more fair. The latter thing will evolve, because it's easier.

So, what is this "cheap spell"? The ability to take a human's SOUL out of their body. Without the ability to control the SOUL, this would leave the human completely helpess-So they're as good as dead. And all it takes is one extra spell.

Only humans who could control their SOUL had a chance at survival. (And humans who were lucky enough to find a proto-monster who didn't have this ability, first. For a while, it was still worth it. Evolution happens gradually over time.) They could simply move it back in their body, and not be helpless anymore.. Then, the battle box evolved, made by the monsters to entrap the SOUL, so that it can't just return back to the body. Lemon Bread is able to control the size of it, and so can Flowey... And Sans. So this is an evolution on the monster side of things.

At this point, humans were at a stalemate. In this case, they were trapped, and the monster could fire off as many attacks as they need to, to simply kill the human.

But if they could find a way to create a tunnel using some magic to escape the box.. A tunnel between their body and the battle box.. Which we observe as the below the box. (The monster is in front of us, and we observe them as above the box. So the buttons below are closer to us) They could do that, and survive once again. Flee was born. But fleeing doesn't always work. Sometimes, the monster catches up in time. And what's the OTHER part of the survival instinct?

Fight or Flight

FIGHT is the next command added to the HUD. The strategy of just running away was working, but not well enough. And the SOUL couldn't just physically HOLD a weapon-It's pure essence, determination, and magic, and has no appendages! So it needs another way to make use of weapons. But what if.. rather than HOLDING the weapon, it channels the magical potential of the weapon instead, making a somewhat magical recreation of the effect, by? (This is the reason why you can fire an Empty Gun.) You just need to focus your SOUL magic.. With a link between the SOUL and weapon. Flee was already on the right side... So Fight would be on the left. This is why only one weapon can be equipped at a time... And why humans only fought with their left hands. There was now an evolutionary advantage of being left-handed.

Humans naturally had weapons quite often-Animals are a thing too, you know. (Like snails and birds, for example.) And humans were still hunters. So weapons were already a thing. This was just a way to use them in the SOUL-struck state!

And it was Super Effective!

Monsters weren't adapted to actually BEING attacked. Their own food was magical in nature, and their only rival, the humans, had no real way of attacking them, since up until this point, they could just remove a human's SOUL from their body, and score a free kill, with no chance of a retaliation attack-At worst, the human just gets away. So, they haven't exactly evolved very much defense. ..Or offense, for that matter. And why would they? That requires more physical matter, and doing that would take away from how much of them is made of magic, and thus, their magical potential! And since this wasn't a classical "physical" attack, but more of a virtual attack, it couldn't even be seen!

This gave the humans an edge over the monsters.

I could explain how the rest of the HUD evolved by my theory if you wish. It's nowhere near done. But I'll save it for when you ask for it, because I already answered your question on how Frisk can fire an Empty Gun:It's a "virtual" attack, that does real damage. Any further would just be going on an irrelevant tangent for no reason at all.

But perhaps Frisk is just bopping the monster on the head with it. That works too. I'll have to look at the fight animation for and see if this makes sense.

...A circle, and then star-like things rotating around it. ...I'm not sure how to interpret that. Or explain it. By EITHER theory.

Although Frisk only spent a single day at Toriel's house at the Ruins. So even if they did come seperately, it needn't have taken years for this to happen.

But since they didn't come as a group, there's the problem I pointed out. If they were a search party, they should have came as a group. And they didn't. So, it wasn't a search party.

Burrowing creatures can already go under it, so anyone with mining gear could dig under the wall anyways.

Mining gear is dangerous-Toriel would have it hidden away at once, like the knives. ("Where are the knives"-Chara)

And if Toriel's the only one who can open that door.. then why would she have to destroy it? Why not just wave goodbye and leave Frisk pounding his head against an Unopening Door while she goes upstairs and bakes another pie?

She's the only one who can open the door from the outside. She states that it's a one-way entrance. Doors with locks have a side where you can lock it without the key. This side happens to be the side facing the Ruins. This is why Frisk can use it, even as Toriel didn't open the entrance... But can't get back.

Though Toriel had to specifically tell Frisk that when they leave, they shouldn't return. Perhaps she's aware of the mining gear workaround? And without her to hide away the gear, if Frisk manages to find it elsewhere in the underground...

Unless you consider that Toriel might know about Sans' plan to test Frisk, and see if he's friend or foe. Toriel hands Frisk a phone with the key to Sans' room on it, after all.

Yeah, I still think Sans is doing time shenanigans. Did you know that when Sans mentions the echo flower, everyone except for Sans and Frisk freeze? Time's frozen.

And she makes a dramatic show of "Oh no, I'm totally going to destroy the Ruins Door so you can never go home!" And then, rather than actually doing that, gives Frisk a battle that is clearly a test.

That's because Frisk attempts to stop Toriel. If Frisk just walks back upstairs...

Chara gives them a vision, preventing them from passing enough time for Toriel to destroy the door.

In order for destroying the door to be any use, she'd have to destroy it piece by piece, replacing it with more wall. Otherwise, the open space could just be walked right through. It'd take quite a lot of time to actually succeed here.

Ambassador, while your idea that people other than the Followers have forgotten Gaster is interesting... I'm not certain that's the case.

It's not my idea, actually. I'm just defending it. This has actually been what a huge portion of the fandom has believed for a long time. I'm simply expanding upon the idea.

If Gaster's existance had simply been purged from the timeline, why wouldn't Asgore wake up and think "Hey! We need a new scientist!" and quickly get one?

Well, first, he looks at the CORE. Whoever built it must have been a technological genius, great engineer. Far ahead of everyone else, even as Snowdin is stuck with human-level technology.

If such a scientist existed... Asgore WOULD find him/her. He would choose very carefully who the scientist is... It had to be someone who could create crazy inventions... Because it has been done before.

Someone like Alphys, who, as far as Asgore knows, made a sentient robot. This would help bring about the Singularity.

Yes, Alphys faked that. But nobody except for Frisk and Chara know that. Asgore believed in the lie.

While Sans would certainly have been a workable replacement for Gaster too.. we only know that because of the hidden lore. Sans cultivated his persona of being a goofy slacker non-human skeleton very, very careful. His survival depended on people not knowing just how strong his connection to Gaster was, or that both were humans.

They're literally both skeletons, and Sans has a clearly-visible quantum physics textbook in his room.

I don't think it's a far cry for monsters to link the two together. And Asgore doesn't need to know that Sans is a human to appoint him as the new Scientist.

You question about how Alphys struggles to recall how she met Sans, and how Sans replies "Doesn't everybody?" could feed in to my own theory that Sans is a future version of Frisk. Everyone body knows Sans.. because everybody knows Frisk! So why wouldn't everyone we meet also know about Sans? They'll all met him before.

Sans and Papyrus have made a big show in Snowdin. Practically what the town's famous for, if you ask the Snowdin Shopkeeper. Pretty sure everyone knows who Sans is anyways. Still, though, why would Alphys struggle to recall it? Why wasn't she able to answer the question? Why does only Sans know? If Gaster was involved with it, and was erased, it would be erased from Alphys' memories. And Sans, being a Darkner, would not have his memories erased.. Because the Retcon only applies to Undertale's timeline-The one Gaster was erased from. Even still, it's hard not to forget an erased event. Hence his note in his secret room. (Actually, what if the three smiling people were Kris, Susie, and Ralsei?)

I'm certain Sans and Papyrus didn't forget about Gaster, they've got blasters with his name on them. And I think Sans is a leading cause for why Gaster isn't around anymore in this timeline.

I'm not saying they forgot. I'm saying they're struggling not to. That unlike anything else, Sans actually has to put an effort into remembering Gaster. But why? Why is it that hard to remember your partner scientist... If you can recall the exact conversation you met Toriel with.. Know how to use the blasters of the exact same scientist you're trying to remember...

It appears like Sans is fighting the ripple effect of Gaster's erasing.

Why didn't Alphys become a follower of Gaster? Well, she might be a young monster who never got the chance to join the club. And she might also be disillusioned with some of the things Gaster made that she found in the lab.

...Now that I think of it... All the followers mention what happened to Gaster in some way. Even Goner Kid could possibly count, if the thought of a world that acts the same without you is using Gaster as a reference point.

Perhaps only witnesses of Gaster's fall would become followers.

Oh, and by the way... Know those times Sans breaks the laws of physics? Lancer does some wacky shenanigans as well.

Alphys, though, might know better than most that Gaster didn't live up to this ideal. She's a pretty smart cookie. She probably has a lot of questions about him that have yet to be answered.

Given the current situation, it doesn't look like they ever will be. ...At least not for Alphys.

I admit I'm assuming that Sans and Papyrus were the two people in the room when Gaster talked about Entry 17.

And maybe it was Sans and Papyrus.. I just don't see why Gaster wouldn't pick Alphys.

Although if Alphys was selected years later after Gaster's death, as Asgore searched his empire for a worthy replacement, it doesn't sound like Alphys was an apprentice of Gaster at the time. Otherwise she would have been the natural replacement from Day 1.

The whole premise of my theory is that everybody except the Followers, who were torn from the timeline (your phone doesn't work) forgot about Gaster! Asgore wouldn't recall that Alphys was an apprentice of Gaster... Because Gaster never existed to him! Instead, the creator of the CORE has been lost to history. This is the only reason why he wouldn't have chosen Sans as an apprentice.

Your info about Uncle Semi in the prototype notes for Undertale was very interesting. But in the finished version Sans, Papyrus, and Wingding Gaster are the only known members of The Font Brigade.

It's Grandpa Semi, not Uncle Semi. And Grandpa Semi would be another part of the Font Brigade. Maybe Grandpa Semi was supposed to be Gaster before Toby knew Deltarune would be a reality... Maybe he's Gaster's father, making him Sans and Papyrus' grandpa... Or maybe it was just a prank call, because it was placed after a few prank calls in the code.

The Font Brigade has to be there for a reason, something that connects these characters.

Maybe they're just family.

And we know Sans has Gaster Blasters, and Papyrus seems to have once had one. These two know Gaster. And they both traveled through time together to end up in Snowdin... without Gaster in the party.

Okay, we don't know that they traveled in time to arrive at Snowdin. I think Sans and Papyrus showed up out of nowhere because their origin is erased. Sans is a Darkner... And Papyrus is either native to Undertale, and Gaster's son... Or he's a Lightner. He can't be a Darkner, because Darkners can bleed, and Papyrus was dusted. Only Sans is a Darkner.

There had to be a falling out of sorts. Something went wrong, that split The Font Brigade.

Gaster's erasing!

If the humans had 22nd century technology, the monsters would have adapted that by now also. But Snowdin, the most traditional monster settlement we're bound to find, seems very much to be living in the modern era.

Of course the humans don't have 22nd century technology! I stated before that we can tell by the end shot that it's modern day-Nothing futuristic about the end shot, or the credits. But the monsters DO-In the CORE! They have futuristic technology... From Gaster! Which they call modern, because it's modern for THEM! Snowdin's more of an old-time town.

Future tech hasn't normalized all through monster society yet, which suggests the human world is also in the modern day. But then where is all the future tech coming from? My answer is trash from obsolete models of W. D. Gaster's technology. After all, Undyne makes it clear that the technology they call modern is coming from the trash.. Speculated to be from humans... But it can't be from humans. So the monsters can't know where it came from... It's origin must be untraceable... And it had to end up in the dump somehow.