Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180902080602

"But, the book saying monsters are made of love, hope, and compassion, is DIRECTLY contradicted by the underground being devoid of hope."

Then you are just not getting it.

"They don't have to be your friends, though."

So the condition of befriending them may not apply. It is then purely just the memories of you, I guess.

"Maybe more than one Jerry exists?"

Implying there's an entire species of mean monsters, rather than a single jerk named Jerry of an unknown/unnamed species of alien saucer butts? The latter is the simpler option, so I'm taking that.

"killing you, that is"

For the last time, unless explicitly stated, no one wants to kill you. I think I've made my point(s) clear.

"Green magic heals you. What's the point in healing your enemy in a battle?"

One of my points.

"You don't see him complaining when people do the Genocide Route and kill the characters:Clearly, Genocide is the one true ending!"

He let's us have a choice, although he did program the game push us towards the pacifist ending. Hence why I'm saying that was his point... besides giving you the freedom of NOT doing the right thing, of course. But you keep implying we were all playing the game incorrectly, by being merciful to the monsters.

"So they're not even looking at the SOUL they're attacking?"

There's no change to be observed. The INV effect perhaps. But monster bodies don't blink when you hit them, so they wouldn't know what that means.

"Oh, and by the way, monster SOULs CAN be harmed by white magic."

Hence why I said: 'they are accustomed to their attacks not dealing damage if they do not wish to harm them'; not that they never deal damage.

"Do monsters see each other's SOULs leave the body?"

If we don't, they don't. Unless twinkle twinkle HUD HUD HUD hurr hurr durr. Besides, only boss monster souls show upon death, remember?

"If they don't, shouldn't the fact that ours does give them a revelation? They aim for our SOUL, so they clearly know about this."

Or, as I've speculated previously, the soul sometimes represents our entire body. Just simplified a lot so that we can control it with nothing but the arrow keys. After all, Undyne's spears did do damage to the bridge in Waterfall, so this isn't unheard of. And as for how that harms the soul, maybe the body is like a conductor, transmitting the damage to the soul even though it wasn't hit directly.

"Our SOUL isn't white-Shouldn't that be a dead giveaway?"

Lack of education. Assuming they can see it, which I don't think they can. Besides, I don't think their edu is really that lacking. So it has to be that they don't see it then.

"If Napstablook's demonstration of monster HP shows anything, it's that monster HP is affected by more than just physical attacks.."

That applies to ghosts only.

"As long as they're not representing themselves through magic, it's fine."

It is incredibly easy for them to pull out a weapon they're fully atuned to. If that's not expression, I don't know what is. If I had to give humans of my AU magic, it would not take any concrete shape.

"Betty's not a monster"

Kanashi is. Follow her on Amino: https://aminoapps.com/p/7smr6o

And he was not the only one, according to the history books she made (which you can find on her Tumblr).

"So in prehistoric times, there was no lope, hope, and compassion anywhere?"

Okay, re-explaining: in my interpretation, humans are like us. They have all they need inside their physical bodies, and also all that they don't need, but that is natural to them, such as emotions and intelligence. The soul therefore adds nothing, it is merely a useless extra piece, like the Appendix for example. The reason why the wizards gave them to them, was partly so that the monsters could effectively defend themselves from them, and also partly because [spoilers].

Monster souls on the other hand generate their emotions. Heck, they generate everything, they ARE them. So cutting off their emotions means cutting off their soul. This is what the books mean, that they cannot survive without these emotions, unlike the humans. It's not that they always have them, it's also not that losing them kills them. It's losing the means of generating them that kills them, because that translates to them losing their soul, the one and only thing that produces them. That would be like you getting your neurons, the stuff that is responsible for your emotions, sucked out of your brain.

"Why did they specifically design monsters with the ability to absorb human SOULs?"

That was an unforeseen side effect, unfortunately.

"Are they against the human race? Are they evil?"

They certainly love the monsters more, I'll tell you that.

"Why did he put in the line about the entire underground being devoid of hope? Why specifically devoid of hope, rather than just saddened?"

Could have been a figure of speech, could have been an actual oversight, but considering he makes no more points about this anywhere, I do not consider it a substantial antithesis to the aforementioned statement from the books.

"The rule is simple:Do the characters explicitly mention or abuse them?"

So you take direct evidence. Me too, but I also consider consistency. Why accept one such instance, but ignore all the others? If Toby said everything is canon, or whatever he said, I think we cannot just trash whatever he didn't directly explain. And this leads to the mechanics being so convoluted, I'd rather employ the translating explanation, that whatever the characters may look to be doing on the screen isn't necessarily what they're doing in actuality. Such as, Mettaton hinting at the idea of your own keyboard being canon with his actions.

"If it's possible to interpret the exact lines in a non-meta way, without changing what the text says then we are to use the non-meta interpretation."

Sure. But considering we are already playing with the meta concept, it's not out of the question. And so I ask, what if the meta is simpler than the non-meta? Because this is one of the few instances where this is the case. With the non-meta, we gotta ask a series of complicated questions in goal of explaining Flowey's knowledge of Chara, convoluting the story further. With the meta, we can simply stash it away. And I repeat, the meta is not out of the question yet, Toby making direct 4th-wall referenes at any point in the game is not disproved yet. This IS a valid explanation still. So the final question is, what is more important, keeping everything non-meta, or keeping the story without unnecessary question marks?

By the way, the biggest question mark still stands, a full explanation of how the HUD works. So far, I've only received "it just is that way" from both of you. But both of you, including me, know jackshit about parallel universes. How do you know what is possible and what isn't? A different value for the speed of light? Sure. A LITERAL meta space controlling minds and the movements of everyone that interacts with a specific person (not even an explanation of how it recognizes that person from for example a chair, or a tube of DT, or an essence of someone dead, or an essence of someone dead next to a tube of DT and a chair? smh I'm deeply disappointed in you), centered in one corner of one planet inside one galaxy? Give me a break, please.

The HUD imposes so many questions, I gave up on the idea of it being real a long time ago. I just view it as a way of translating the in-game events to us in a simple manner, because Toby can't do anything better than that. And the characters utilizing it? The HUD is a direct translation of whatever is going on in actuality, so whatever they do, however they might break the "established rules", their actions WILL be translatable back to the original format.

For example, Sans taking a really long turn and sleeping during it, could actually be just him faking his sleep, still paying attention to your movements, and you being unable to just attack him right away could translate as him holding a really powerful attack ready to snipe you, so you have to be VERY sneaky with your attack (e.g. preparing your weapon into an attacking position), illustrated by the box moving very slowly towards the attack button.

"How the entire text of his battle, as it is written (don't change a single word of what he says-This is VERY important!), can make sense without there actually being turns, THEN I'll change my view on turns. Go on, try it!"

Alright. We presume the characters audibly talk to Frisk. That they've all got their own voices, instead of speaking in a "trrrrrrrrrrrr"-sounding text. The reason we see it so however, is because once again, the game translates it to us. And that means it needs to stay consistent with its other translations, nominally, translating a fluid battle into a turn-based one. And to do that, it sometimes needs to change what the characters say a little.

"So, using that very reasoning, which side takes precedence? New Home, of course, being placed later in the timeline! The book wasn't accurate!"

That was a last resort approach of course. Other logical steps take precedence. Such as, why would Toby put it in the game, if it had no value? True, this could be a plot twist, but it's too small to be any meaningful. I'd assume any standard plot twist to be either bigger, or better explained. For example, the "inaccuracy" of the books could have been hinted at. In that case yes, I would start doubting them. But not if the entire ordeal is missing a point.

"And as I said, there's a difference between something metaphorically happened, and flat-out being unable to make an action using that button."

That's precisely what I meant what metaphorically happened. Our will to escape and Asgore's will to kill us has been represented by him smashing that button. As in, that a truce isn't possible.

"Stop using Toby. Look at the game, and the game only. Take Toby out of the equation, and look at the game, as it stands ON ITS OWN."

I wonder what's your opinion about DDLC. If that one does this, why not Undertale? The hints are so obvious and you just KEEP claiming they are in some twisted way actually canon...

"Chara's with us for the duration of the run. So it's best to say it was about them."

Only because they're canon and 'we' might not be? How about what I said earlier, that if that included us, a lot of things would get simplified? As in, if this hinted at us, it wasn't canon, since this is what the 4th wall warrants, and also since there's no confirmed "inner" player playing as Frisk. And as I said before, removing these scenes brings up a lot less questions than keeping them in and trying to rationalize them.

"Not every human knows that"

Refusing to cooperate is as simple and natural as farting.

"Hey, he flat-out swore to eliminate all of the Titans, pretty sure that means the Titans were justified in that manner."

"""THEY""" referred to the humans. If you don't watch the show, don't comment on it.

"As I said, the narration in New Home debunks that. And sooner or later, one of the THOUSANDS of monsters is going to become evil."

Unless you hurt a particularly determined monster, that isn't happening.

"How can we possibly resolve this contradiction?"

Want me to repeat it for the millionth time?

"According to the Kickstarter, he only mentioned major concepts such as SAVEs and such being canon. Turns is a major game mechanic too, so that could fit in, but he mentioned it being an actual part of a living world-Not a bunch of code, which a canon player would imply."

Did he now?

"And what do you know, Toby worked on both of those!"

On the music. That's not what confused me.

"And in your case, you arbitrarily change lines of dialogue to account for the evidence for the HUD, and viola, done"

Yeah. Because the game interpreting the world to us doesn't make any sense, but discontinuation of reality itself totally does.

"We've already shown that the world DOESN'T turn black and white:It stays as it was."

No, we didn't.

"And I've shown that this isn't some breaking of simultaneity, it's just you can't attack if you can't reach the buttons."

Because we totally don't have hands. Because coming arbitrarily close to some monster removes them and prevents us from moving our physical body. Strange that the game would mention that only during Asriel's battle. Was it implying we could have moved before that? As in, for example, run away, without needing to press a button with our soul, however that might even work? Contradiction much?

"Then what's wrong with making sense of the canon he's put down so far?"

What's the point? Are you planning to graduate from this stuff or something?

"Now, being yourself mostly fits in with blue."

It fits literally anything.

"So you don't want to make rules that complicate things to explain turns, which was flat-out mentioned by Sans, but you DO want to make rules that complicate things just to make red NOT determination, when there's no real evidence it can't be determination?"

Quite the opposite. Red being determination has already been sufficiently disproven, even if not officially confirmed yet, that it may as well be the new accepted truth, kinda like Chara being the narrator. And with turns, I'm just showing an alternative interpretation, one that would be compatible with the overworld. Toby may have said that turns are canon, but did he ever provide a consistent explanation? That's what I'm missing here. I don't understand turns in light of the overworld mechanics, and I don't understand the overworld mechanics in light of the HUD.

"Omega Flowey didn't have to do that to us. Debunked."

Composite soul it is then. Thanks for cementing it for me.

"Frisk isn't a Mary Sue."

They literally are. Defeating a literal god? How more literal can we even go?

"As I said, they would be able to win any battle. Asgore can't keep dodging forever:Keep attacking."

Well, no one can. Also, no one has enough sanity to keep living on forever in an endless loop.

"With the literal power of REFUSE, you cannot lose."

Yeah. We didn't get that in that fight. So neither did those other children, I am assuming.

"It's not strategic. What's the point in starting the whole battle over, when you can fully heal, and continue, where you are?"

Yeah. Tell that to the hundred instances of their soul otherwise normally shattering. It's obviously easier for the soul to just send the essence back in time. So why then?

"Frisk didn't have that ability before then, though:There wasn't a big enough DT flux."

There is no DT flux and there never has been for no human being ever. There is proof that DT doesn't fluctuate and the proof of the contrary has been discredited. Sheesh, can you even begin to fathom my absurd patience with you? Both of you?

"Wouldn't it be FAR simpler to just say that Frisk had one too?"

Not if the souls are being used as a metric.

"Being yourself has nothing to do with perseverance. That's blue."

Malice said nothing about blue. Remember the reply chain.

"Not necessarily. You can get red the first time around."

Luck doesn't count. Proof: replicate the result. That's what scientists do when they encounter unusual data. And this game does involve luck. You can consistently get red only if you train intensively. And if you train intensively, you are bound to get all the other traits. And ultimately, this implies you not only struggle, but also start over after struggling, continuing your metaphorical search.

"Oh please, we all know Suzy's a more likely candidate for Frisk, and we know for a near fact why Chara fell-They hated humanity."

Because the humanity hated them, for what they were. Once again, my headcanon works. Oh and nevermind Suzy.

"True, all we have is many, MANY cases of Frisk being associated with DT."

Just like any other human being.

"But, by saying it's NOT the sum, you're disregarding the first flag."

It's both. Remember my neutron analogy?

"Yes. But how is that going to stop him from attacking more?"

He stopped on his own. Luckily for us. Luckily for anyone who would be in our shoes.

"You don't want to, but that doesn't give you the POWER to."

No need for power, when Asriel stops on his own. Heck, Frisk had no power to overtake him either.

"But that's not going to give you the power to come back, or not give up."

You're right. It won't. Determination will. The physical substance that is yellow by nature, as evidence points out.

"Go ahead, take as much time as you need. And die."

Well? Did we die? Frisk couldn't do literally anything besides staying determined. That was their only power left, as a human being.

"Good luck getting to that point, though."

Yep, without determination, it would be much more difficult. Heck, it would have been much more difficult for Frisk too, considering they had no other super powers available to them at that point.

"Now, how do I kill Asriel again?"

You don't. You remind him of happy and let him mentally break down.

"If you look closely, each trait gave you something you needed to stop Asriel. That alone couldn't do anything, but by combining them all together, you could."

No. We literally only needed determination. The thing that all human beings possess. That's it.

"And tell me, what do you get when you combine the six traits together?"

The same thing you get when you apply for 7 different courses on a university. A migraine.

It's possible to achieve a balance, but impossible to master all 7. You only got the capacity for one after all. And that's assuming the traits mix anyways.

"Under what circumstance would a lack of hate mean a lack of determination?"

Under what circumstance would a lack of anything mean a lack of DT? This is totally arbitrary, determination can apply to anything that has an apparent goal, as I said. So a better question rather, why the 6 the game mentioned, what's so special about those? The definitive explanation is, that Toby simply chose the words that fit the soul modes the closest. Whereas about a possible ingame explanation, perhaps the above implies red cannot be DT, due to how arbitrary the choice of the traits is? I seriously don't think these 6 are truly special in anything, separated from any other psychological trait, positive, negative, strong or weak.

"Undying being determined for everyone's lives in this dictionary manner gave her a DT boost. What do you know?"

Yes. Because that's what determination truly is. The thing the Undyne experienced. Whereas the red trait cannot be the same thing, because it's not defined the same way. And the definition, as I showed above, doesn't work anyways.

"It's not that they relate to DT. It's that they're each PARTS of DT."

DT has no parts. It's not in the dictionary that it has parts.

"Now, can anyone tell me what you need hate or solidarity for?"

Hate to give you a reason to hunt down your enemies. Solidarity to survive, as there's strength in numbers. We could just go on and on listing cases where these traits apply to keep you determined, the list is endless. But if you're trying to make it work together, consider, patience and bravery are opposites. A paradox. Bravery isn't just contemplating doing it somewhere a patience would hide at, it's actually moving, as the game showed, the exact opposite of patience (plus, your definition of patience was synonymous with perseverance; patience is about waiting, not about 'not getting bored'). Therefore, these 6 simply cannot work together. They're too convoluted.

"But I've shown that this definition of DT in fact does require all 6 traits to be displayed in a way."

That's not all there is to it. Did you also show that no other trait can apply to it, as the game implied? Every single other one? If there's only a single other trait that could apply to it, you'd be proven wrong, the 6 wouldn't be enough.

"Indeed, your flaw is your second premise."

There is no flaw. And I am saddened you haven't bothered to provide a counter example rather. I am basing this on Occam's razor. I see a strong correlation with no dispute, I think, causation.

"Why would a SOUL choose to get rid of DT?"

That's not what I said. I said the essence can allocate DT in order to utilize its potential. That's how it happens. And lost DT is replenished by some strong source, probably physical matter, which is linked to DT somehow, and I speculate ATP, or maybe just simply water.

"Um, no he didn't. He absorbed the SOULs."

Which contained DT. Considering DT is soul power, he used the power of DT to boost his own magic. Elementary, my dear Watson.

"It does, else we'd have a certain MONSTER with S/L/R during the gap between humans, and evidence seems to suggest there is no monster that had this ability."

Side note for ignoramuses: a minimum DT treshold is also present in addition to the said rule.