Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170811161334

TheHumanAmbassador wrote: 2.2)How do we tell the jokes and the actual plot stuff apart? Why can't we say that the narrator claiming to be Chara was a joke? Once we start getting into that, we can call anything we want a joke, since Toby never made it clear what was and wasn't jokes.

3)Enemy Approaching, but close enough. And yes, it means Chara calls everyne an enemy, if Chara is the one naming the songs, that is. Also, Chara calls themself a demon, and Undyne a heroine. And heroines would be an enemy to demons. So, guess what that means.. =) (Makes sense, though-You still have to kill Undyne, or Chara will stop helping you on the plan-They want EVERYONE dead. Even Undyne.)

3.3)The time 9999:99, is only about 6 days and 23 hours. So just one week is enough to max it out like that. And I'm sure Flowey had his powers to SAVE and LOAD for much more than a week. :3

3.5)There's 234 nines-I counted. So 10^234-1 damage. I'm sure that's WAY more than 500 septillion terajoules of energy.

3.6)I'm looking for evidence that Chara is the one providing options in the FIRST place, actually. As of right now, I do not consider that Chara has any control over the HUD, just as we have no control, or can even see THEIR HUD. Also, you can laugh at Snowdrake himself, which is actually how to spare him if you laugh at his puns. If Chara controls the options you have, then why does the option to give gold to Gyftrot even exist a second time? Why doesn't Chara just stop giving you that option if they're going to stop you from using it?! Chara is the narrator, not the HUD.

3.7)And Flowey's not really that wrong. Why do we shamble acorss Snowdin? (Papyrus takes note of this) Because Chara has some control over us as well. Flowey could have noticed these sings, and compared them to himself and Chara on the Surface, and therefore deduced that there were two people here, one actually doing the killing, whom he assumes to be Chara, for the reason you stated, and that the SECOND one is just some "sicko" just WATCHING it happen, and are too scared to do it themselves. Flowey doesn't know that he just called Chara a sicko. (Well THERE'S a reason for Chara to make that creepy face and possibly kill him? Maybe?)

4)When the HUD is activated, we can still see Frisk, as they appear to turn into a heart. We don't see Frisk when Sans does this. So Sans had to done something to make it that way.

4.1)The fact that you can glitch duplicate stuff would serve as evidence that they really are inside of a simulation, perhaps a game. If I saw a glitch duplication in the real world, I'd take that as proof we're in a simulation like the Matrix. Besides, why isn't Sans duplicating his ketchup? :3 Yep, now Sans liking to get ketchup at Grillby's is ACTUALLY serious evidence. :3

4.2)If we're trying to free the six SOULS, and Undyne couldn't stop us, that could also be sad for her.. Now, because of Frisk, they have to wait much longer to go free themselves.. Same thing for befriending the monsters, they were filled with hope that they were just about to go free.. Now they're not going to kill Frisk.

Also, if we spare Asgore, Flowey KNOWS we spared Asgore. If we spare Asgore, Flowey tells us we haven't learned a thing. If we try to kill Asgore, Flowey tells us we finally get it. Flowey KNEW we weren't going to kill Asgore to go free. Flowey killed Asgore to toy with us.

4.3)In the game, Frisk is not a mindless zombie, and we're not a voice intheir head telling them what to do like OneShot. We don't even exist as our own entity. Within the story of the game, we ARE Frisk. Frisk has character, because WE have character. While we might not be Frisk in real life, within the story of Undertale, we are Frisk-The boundary between the player and Frisk does not exist within Undertale. "The Player" is Frisk in this story. Frisk isn't some toy, they're SUPPOSED to be us.

4.6)It's not color mixing. Having a shield is the trait of kindness, and that's why your SOUL is green-Take away the shield, and we have being just plain immobile. That's cyan. But the dominant feature from a mechanical perspective is the SHIELD, it even starts to make sense that you're immobile, the shield is the kindness, defending the helpess SOUL. Therefore, kindness is the dominant trait, which is why it's green here and not cyan. But, just being immobile with no shield? Cyan all the way!

4.10)Alphys actually tried doing that! One would think that after 250 years they would figure that they can just take the 6 souls and the entire monsterkind and be free, right? Well, they actually DOD figure you could do just that-It's why Alphys stated that freedom was much closer than they thought! I mean, if you're taking determination away from the human SOULs to feed the Amalgamates, so that they're enough to free monsterkind once they reach one human SOUL, you've also drained away one human SOUL worth of power. That won't get you anywhere. But, if Alphys was planning on using Flowey as a vessel, to collect the SOULS of both the six humans and the monsters, they could be free much closer than they though! But, the experiment was a failure, and the flower mysteriously vanished. The experiment was a failure, and they didn't tru to do that again, it was considered a lost possibility-That it just couldn't be done that way-They NEEDED seven human SOULS.

4.11)Because the SOUL is the very culimination of your being. Attacking your now worthless body is like attacking a dummy. When the SOUL is inside of your body, it takes damage along with it, probably why it leaves upon death, to avoid dying with its host. Once it returns to the body, whatever magic is used to heal the body will be used by the damageless SOUL, and the body too will become damageless.

4.13)Except Undertale being a game isn't canon-So we can't use "game design" to explain this. Besides, when you press the button, you're STILL walking off-screen with your SOUL. Besides, why not just make the box so large that it covers the entire screen, except for the buttons? It gives Frisk more freedom! And now that the flee option is gone, Frisk's "desire to stay in battle" vanishes, so shouldn't the box ALSO vanish? You're no longer saying you want to stay in the battle, because the button isn't there. Also, still doesn't explain how Lemon Bread can manipulate the box :3

5.1)The meaning probably isn't really important, I agree there. It's probably just some science-We can see ourselves and nothing else, there's a justification in there somewhere (Which I was attempting to find), nothing special to it. I was just trying to say it's plausible for this to STILL be Frisk, not that Toby hid some meta-secret here. Just that it actually MAKES SENSE. I didn't get a notification for your reply. Weird. Anyways,

2.2) How? Well, use common sense. Game theory analysis isn't certainly for anyone, definitely not for people who aren't able to tell jokes apart from normal stuff.

3) Did I really write "approaching enemy"? Lol ok. I'll have a long talk with my brain later this afternoon.

But other than that, I think the theory that Chara helped us kill everyone because they believed it is the right thing to do is pretty solid. After all, even Gerson hinted at this. He didn't say that someone will murder everyone, but that someone will "free" them from this mortal realm.

3.3) Ok. In that case, we can assume it is by no coincidence exactly on all 9's. Becuase that would be hell of a coincidence. I think it's just supposed to show that after reaching the maximum value, it doesn't go any further, implying that the time Flowey spent on that latest reset of his was really long.

3.5) Depending on what is the energy value of a single unit of damage. But still, you must acknowledge that a ghost of some dead child, even when in a possession of a red soul wouldn't be so strong. The value is just symbolic.

3.6) Well, Chara doesn't mind when you give gold away. Only when you try to do it twice. And you can heckle at Snowdrake, or laugh at them before they say anything funny.

3.7) Flowey mentions that Chara stole the soul or something. I think he believes that the human which was previously inside that body is no longer there. He believes Chara was there from the very beginning. I think he mentions an "empty shell" somewhere in his lines too.

4) Ok. But Frisk doesn't turn into a heart. First, physical matter doesn't have that property. Second, it's not just a heart, it is the soul. Third, you said yourself that the soul gets pulled out of the body, not that the body turns into it.

4.1) Perhaps he can't duplicate everything. Still, duplication is a much easier explanation than a convenient well-timed teleportation.

4.2) But we've never mentioned anything to her about freeing any souls. Undyne only assumes that we're going to fight Asgore. In fact, everyone does. Doesn't everyone try to stop us at the end of the true-pacifist playthough, always saying something like "nobody fight eachother"?

And Flowey said that because we weren't following his "kill or be killed" philosophy. Actually, I recommend you study this folder: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5NnJwM283MVg1d1k

and this one too: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5aTdXbUIxZG1XUVU

4.3) Again, we can't be teleported into the game. We merely control Frisk. They are our toy. That's what you're saying. You're saying they're just a mindless zombie. Either that, or we're just carrying out their actions, and they're independant of us. Let Frisk be happy, let Frisk live their life. That's what Flowey told us. I am convinced he was speaking to the player there. Even if that means it didn't happen in-game, since Flowey couldn't possibly know about any "player". Still, his speech was aimed at us. Therefore, he was talking to us, about Frisk. Therefore, we can't be Frisk. And no, he was NOT speaking to Chara. Why would he? His speech perfectly descibes us. He didn't mention Chara, he said "I'm talking about YOU." He even put emphasis on 'you'. You, the player.

4.6) I was pointing out how Undyne mentioned her power is green, and yet the description of kindness applies only when we have a shield. I guess that's just a plot hole.

4.10) I know that Alphys wanted to make the souls persist, and if the monsters were to use a mixed power of human and monster souls, then of course a vessel would be needed, since a monster can't absorb monster souls, and human souls can't absorb human souls. Still, I don't really understand how would they get one whole human-equal soul. Unless they were planning to turn the entire monsterkind into a persisting bunch of souls?

I don't think Alphys really thought this through back there.

4.11) "To avoid dying with its host". Then it could just leave the body altogether to never take any damage, which would force monsters to attack the soul solely, which would cause it to shatter, which would mean Asgore would have to attack the body to make sure the soul stays intact, which would mean the soul could just return in order to mess up his plan and also to be able to reset the timeline once the body's dead, but since Asgore knew about the HUD, he would OBVIOUSLY know about this too, therefore he would have to somehow force the soul to stay out of the body to prevent it from shattering inside of it, and at this point it's easier to say that the soul never leaves the body unless the body is dead. *drops mic*

4.13) But it IS a game. Therefore, not everything can be directly translated into in-game lore. Toby chose a box arena to be there, not because of some canon reason, but because it makes it easier for US. See? You're also trying to turn the battle interface into something more compatible with the overworld. You said that we could just remove the box, remove the flee option, and everything would be more realistic. But Toby didn't do that, and we have to respect that. If therefore Toby wasn't trying to make the fight look particularly canon, then perhaps it isn't canon to begin with.

5.1) If you wanna know my opinion, I think Sans made the screen black for us. Because in order to make it black for Frisk, he would have to do some really strange mumbo jumbo with the air and light. But if we acknowledge that the interaction between the game and us has an infinite potential, then it could have been relatively easy for him to make it black solely for us.