Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190617222636/@comment-32182236-20190721141728

It is odd that the glyph writers said there were no entrances or exits. When Asgore's people came from an opening near where New Home was later build, and traveled all the way to the far side of the cavern because they were afraid of further human attacks.

Right. Why say that there are no entrances or exits, when you came in through an entrance? Was the entrance removed after the monsters were cast underground somehow? If what the glyphs say was true, then it should be impossible for humans to attack, and the monsters should have nothing to fear. Then again, if the glyphs are to be taken literally, there's no way that Asgore's people could have arrived here themselves.

And because of the latter claim, we have no choice but to say that particular glyph is false. If it was true, the monsters couldn't have arrived. And they did. Modos tollens.

The Underground has a deeper history than just back to The War of Humans and Monsters. The Waterfall Statue, for example, with an origin lost to time. Yet Gerson can remember first-hand when the Barrier was created. That statue pre-dates even him.

Perhaps the explanation I gave earlier will suffice.

Could it be that another Barrier was cast.. and broken.. earlier in time?

If that's the case, then why was the war mentioned as occurring because of fear of a monster with a human SOUL.. And not because the Barrier was broken? And if we know there already was a second war, why are the monsters so eager to be free? At this point, it'd be obvious that a third war would start. And Asgore's declaration to destroy humanity wouldn't just be a fit of rage-It'd be the only known solution to stop the cycle.

I think the part where a Powerful Soul can freely enter and leave the Barrier is an important detail. And one the mosnters were aware of.

Yes. But at the time, they didn't know HOW powerful a SOUL needed to be. This was theoretical-The Barrier only has a certain amount of strength in one position. Put enough pressure on one part of it.. And it stops being enough to hold you back.

That's why they were still worried about human attacks, even after the Barrier was created. And why they also knew that a human and monster soul combined together could pass throught the barrier.

A monster with a human SOUL.. a horrible beast of unfathomable power.

Why couldn't THAT be how they knew? Wouldn't it have been better if the mages just made the Barrier.. impassible? That you had to shatter it to go through it?

I argue they couldn't have done this. We know that objects can travel INTO the underground, so the Barrier isn't a solid wall. It's more of a magical construct, that pushes against those that try to leave the underground. Put enough magical force on it, and it can't fight back anymore. You've broken through it. Unless, again, they wanted the loophole in place. Because the mages themselves had powerful enough SOULs to make the crossing, and threaten the monsters on the other side.

Perhaps that's a possibility as well. And I'm willing to accept it... But not because of the reasons you stated.

Looking at the date the war took place in, optics were not a thing yet. The humans wouldn't KNOW that light is a particle, and would be blocked by the Barrier, so they had no reason to make the Barrier one-way at all, unless they did plan on going through.

If the monster population grew large enough, there'd be enough of them so that they might find a way to break the Barrier under their own power. So they'd have to control the monster population.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGqvpMQQ48o

Why didn't the Six Humans get the same treatment as Chara?

As I said before.. I'm asking about the humans before Chara that you argue existed. (I already gave my explanation for the legend's origins.)

There could be different eras of history at work, with more than one barrier. There have certainly been different generations of Boss Monsters if the method of how their SOUL energy transfers to the offspring is known, although Asgore and Toriel seem to have been King and Queen from even before the Barrier.

In fact, Asgore named the kingdom. So he was around since the dawn of the Monster Kingdom. But that doesn't mean that he was the first Boss Monster, as the dawn of the Monster Kingdom is not the dawn of monsters.

Just because Gaster had access to amazing technology, doesn't mean he freely shared it with everyone.

...Isn't the point of being Royal Scientist to advance the technology of the monsters? Why didn't he give the monsters Dimensional Cell Phones? (Better than even Alphys did, that is.)

If my theory of his Fail Safe plan to prevent monsters from destroying humanity is true, he'd have plenty of reasons for keeping most of it close to his chest.

But wouldn't his lack of new discoveries raise suspicion? Why didn't the monsters want him fired for bringing nothing new to the table? They'd think he's just as lazy as Sans.

So it would take monsters some time after his death to decypher and

Part of that sentence is missing.

Even if the Capital was in the Ruins, there still had to be a monster presense elsewhere in the Underground.

...No, because the monsters left Home, and went through the harsh waters and cold climate. The Snowdin Shopkeeper says that Snowdin was founded while the monsters were on the way to New Home.

Monsters still needed to explore The Garbage Dump, after all, to get modern human tech.

But the monsters weren't GETTING human tech, they were making their OWN tech! Gaster was well and alive at this point!

I think The Ruins acted more like the Castle Keep that people could retreat to in times of danger, than where they literally spent every waking hour.

It was a whole town, not just a single castle.

If the Glyphs describe an earlier migration that visited Snowdin and Waterfall and Hotland for the first time.. this again might be evidence of an earlier era of history that happened before Asgore's people were sealed.

Or it's referring to the initial trip to Home, because these statements were made right after the statements that mention the monsters' banishment. Meaning the glyphs were written during the trip to New Home.

When I say something is "weirdly specific", it's when the artist makes a point in reminding us about some detail that doesn't seem important at first.

...But it's the Snowdin Shopkeeper that tells us this. And that's a response to us specifically asking about the RUINS. Her response is completely natural, and there's nothing weird about it. I don't see why you're bringing Toby Fox into this.

Like how the First Order's stormtroopers all started training as little kids who have no memory of where they actually came from. There's no way this isn't a plot hook.

Yes, it does create a mystery as to where they actually did come from. Though that's all. The Spartans also started training as little kids.

But why give us this information? What other puzzle does this information fit into?

We're given that information because the Snowdin Shopkeeper is telling us that WE can't go back to the Ruins unless we're a ghost or can burrow under the door. So all we have are descriptions of it. The world of Undertale is a world, you know. It's not canonically a bunch of code. There is a Surface world out there, and the monsters were living their lives long before Frisk fell. Solipsism is not true in Undertale.

It tells us that a ghost like Gaster could also freely visit The Ruins. Something that I think is very, very important to know with the epidemic of Fallen Down monsters happening.

We'd first have to learn that Gaster is a ghost. And as I said, we could deduce this information from the properties of the door itself-We didn't need the Shopkeeper to tell us that.

The monster population, which still somewhat small if killing 20 monsters clears up a lot of room, defintiely seems to be growing. And New Home looks a lot larger than Home/The Ruins. The trick is figuring out just how old the ancient Waterfall Glyphs are.

And I already gave it a date. The move to New Home. So before Chara fell, but after Asriel was born.

If Sans and Gaster already knew the full nature of The Anomaly, why did they have to travel to another dimension in order to study it? A trap that ultimately saw them trapped behind The Barrier, which appearently can stop a normal human.

...You do know that I don't believe that Gaster and Sans went to another world to study an anomaly, right? While I do now believe that the Sans we know and love was from another world (The Dark World, in fact), I don't believe that Gaster was-He was the one who CREATED the Dark World. Remember, I believe the Dark World was the Darkest Experiment. Sans probably used those transport doors to find a way to Undertale. And even brought one of them with him to Undertale! This could be the secret to his shortcuts!

As for Undertale Sans? He became a Goner. Just like the rest of Gaster's Followers.

Deltarune Sans would have to have entered the world of Undertale before Gaster's fall, though. Otherwise, he couldn't have worked with Gaster to study the anomalies.

...You know, I might be indirectly confirming that Sans is Frisk, now that I think about it. Because that would mean the anomalies weren't noticeable until after Deltarune Sans entered the world of Undertale. And the anomaly was Frisk. But then Frisk would be Future Sans, rather than the other way around.

Which would make Frisk a Darkner.

...That wouldn't explain Frisk's human SOUL, though. I'm scratching that one off.

...I guess I'll have to think about why Gaster wasn't studying anomalies until AFTER Deltarune Sans entered the world of Undertale. Looks like both of our theories have a problem now, not just yours.

But secondly, I'm claiming they found out the identity of the anomaly after they studied it, not before. They found an anomaly, analyzed it, and found out it was Frisk.

If Sans knew the Anomaly attached itself to an earlier version of him... wouldn't not taking the trip solve the entire problem?

As I said, I don't think the anomaly was Sans' motivation for entering the world of Undertale. Maybe he found out that the Dark World, and even the world of Deltarune, was fake, and wished to enter the "real" world.

Toriel would know if Sans was Frisk, if she was able to see his face. But so far, nobody else has seen his face, except perhaps Gaster and Papyrus.

But why wasn't his voice familiar? And how is he speaking in a font?

The snails and birds probably did count as monsters. And perhaps harvesting SOULS from them might have helped break the Barrier. But remember that Alphy's attempts at harvesting monster souls are in their infancy. He tried getitng them from Fallen Down monsters, and it didn't work. She's yet to retrieve a single SOUL.

Still, though. Fallen down birds would make more sense. It's customary to experiment on animals before even trying to do it on humans.

And regardess of what types of monster exist, the Waterfall Glyphs would still apply.

Yes, it was. I was just trying to see how the tree of life in Undertale is. Like Undertale's version of The Origin of Species.

I think we still have many questions about how SOULs and essense work. Although something of Asriel certainly did live on inside Flowey.

I would say his essence. As I said, even though SOULs don't persist past death, the essence within it does.