Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27677820-20160131035943/@comment-26905610-20160223224336

Something I find very interesting about this game is how ALL the monsters have their moral flaws, none of them can really be considered the model of Good we expect from the "good guys".

All the monsters seem to be ok with the murders of the previous children who fell in the Underworld, with the exceptions of Toriel, who even resigned her position as queen and exiled herself, and Papyrus, who is completely clueless about pretty much everything around him due to his naiveness, to the point of thinking Asgore would be nice and friendly to the human once they meet. Killing children and stealing their souls is, I don't know, kinda HORRIBLY EVIL, don't you guys think? Specially when the human souls could be acquired by other means. Why not go collect them on the battlefield like a warrior instead of this? But kill a single monster in self-defense and everyone will be horrified, go figure...

Now Asriel. The way I see it he was pretty much a normal kid under the influence of Chara, who despite also being a kid had the hatred and lack of empathy of any adult sociopath.

By the way, I think we should clarify what a sociopath is. A sociopath is someone with a personality disorder which makes them incapable of feeling empathy, love and pretty much anything emotionally deep. Their brain only feel the need to satisfy the most primitive natural urges, like getting laid or owning something and doing whatever they want with it (even if it is a person, this is usually the case in their relationships). They also feel no remorse for whatever reason, which doesn't mean they do not regret decisions, they just regret the results were not to they liking or they changed their mind in their constant effort to please themselves all the time.

Kinda common sense up to here, right? But here is the thing most people don't realize. '''They are born this way. '''They never, in any point of their lives, ever knew what feeling empathy, true love or remorse was like. The idea of a sociopath trying to be a better person is absurd, because they think there is nothing wrong with them. It's a disorder of the brain, it would be like a person lying in bed pondering suicide because of a crippling depression simply waking up one morning thinking "You know what, I think I should get out of this bed and be happy instead of die, yeah that sounds a good idea and makes sense.". I would agree with this guy, however his malfunctioning neurotrasmitters are not amused by those arguments and will keep him there if he doesn't get proper treatment.

Unfortunately, for sociopaths there is no cure. Shower them with love, affection, forgiveness, tolerance, patience, second chances, the results will always be the same. They will lie, and lie, and lie, and lie again, and betray, and try to blame the victims of their behavior for the damage and suffering going on and etc...

Now, you could be a terrible person for other reasons, that wouldn't mean necessarily that you are a sociopath. A person can be messed up because of the environment (messed up home, religion, etc...) and by choices too. In this case, you could refuse to become a better person by choice and die being a scumbag, but it was a possibility. This choice, a chance of redemption, does not exist for a true sociopath, he wouldn't even truly see this path, because their evil is rooted in their own nature.

Finally back to the game... In the logs found on the true lab, we see Chara manipulating Asriel by bringing up trust issues, and Asriel, afraid of losing his newfound brother like any kid would be, just go along and let Chara have his way. That is, until he realized what was really happening, that innocent people would be killed, which finally makes him overpower Chara and take over.

Honestly, I find quite hard that Asriel at any time agreed with killing other people and stealing their souls. With parents like those he probably didn't even know very well the concept of death, nevermind of killing. Again, he is a normal kid under the influence of a mini sociopath, who wouldn't be above of lies and deceit to make his plan succeed. To this point, I believe Asriel to be totally innocent, being naive is hardly a sin for a kid.

Now Flowey. All of a sudden, he wakes up incapable of feeling attached to anyone and with the power of Determination. I find it very interesting that his "first playthrough" he was nice, he did everything right, didn't harm anyone. And then he tries to kill himself, only to his natural instinct of survival kick in and activate the Determination, locking him in what he sees as a terrible and meaningless existence.

When judging Flowey here, it's important to note that you can't just "turn off" your survival instinct. He thinks he should die as a solution to his problem of existing like a soulless flower, but he can't actually "feel like" dying exactly because he lacks a soul. His emotions are too shallow in comparison to his instincts, his natural desire of living will always prevail over any logical reason for suicide. Thus, his injected Determination will always bring him back.

What happens next is not very surprising. We have a kid turned into an immortal being, full of regret and awful memories, who suddenly lost everything including his soul and his moral compass, without any hope of change for his existence.

First he get angry. VERY angry. Against the world and against himself. And he unleashes that anger in countless timelines. And then, despite still being angry, he kinda get bored of burning and destroying everything. As he says in the Genocide Route: "I've read every book and I've burned every book.". Maybe he could just settle in some kind of idyllic calm life, but probably his soulless state and the memories of his past self never let he truly be at peace.

When Frisk meet him, I consider Flowey pretty much insane. He is a murderous, violent, manipulative and selfish creature who probably could be considered too dangerous to be left alive, but I think being brought back to that horrible existence is truly what created the villain. Asriel died a long time ago in a beautiful selfless act.

And, to me at least, that didn't change. If Flowey can't keep the furry form that's because his soul is gone for good, and he is not himself without his soul. As someone said before, borrowed temporary noble feelings won't do.

If Flowey's Determination powers can't be taken away, Sans crew (whoever they are) should lock him up in a single timeline somehow or find some other way. What keeps Flowey from changing his attitude and begin hating everything again? It's back to square one? Eternal return? He should be dealt with regarding what he is still capable of  doing instead of just what he did.

I was hoping this post would be short, sorry...