Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170821025102

2) Asriel gave his powers away. I think the only reason we can see him is because of some lasting effect that huge power he possessed had.

And the dog room is still the developer's room, even if it's in the future. It sits outside the canon.

3.3) Isn't the LV 0 rather a sign of an empty save file? I'm not saying that the data would be displayed upon loading it, it needs to be saved first, and THEN it shows Chara's data. In fact, those data are most likely invisible, and the only way to see them is to open up a save.

3.5) Still, all 9's is precoded, it isn't calculated, so it most likely isn't a natural occurence within the in-game universe. And Chara doesn't have to know it's a game. Maybe they got the power to separate themselves from that universe, and from their point of view, it looked like they removed it from existence. Either way, it would result in us not being able to go back there.

And so if the 9's isn't a natural occurence, but it's artificial and fueled by their hate and LV, then the physical world probably wasn't affected by that fake 10^243 hit. Monsters were, the LV amplifies the damage done onto them. But that's true only for monsters souls, we don't know about human souls. We don't know about anything physical in fact. We don't know if LV can affect the damage output on physical things. The destruction of the world could be fake, just like Sans dying could be fake. And since nothing says the world isn't physical, I'd say that whatever effect does LV have on human souls, it has it on the world itself too. I think it's ridiculous to think that Chara or Frisk would stand a chance against a strong adult human, even at LV 20, so the same has to apply to the entire world.

And remember, we can't theorize like this if you say things like Frisk hitting the monsters directly, without them having a chance to dodge. That would make Frisk non-human, unless you say all humans possess this ability, in which case I can't imagine how would their society work with this power.

3.6) That makes Undertale pointless. If everything is under someone's control, if Frisk isn't Frisk, if the laws of that universe aren't something we can sympathize with (since there's no HUD irl), then what's the point of loving this game, if we can't closely associate it with the real world? Why should we care for Frisk, when they aren't even like us? We don't have any HUD. It makes things much easier if we reject the possibility of a HUD existing in the in-game universe, and with that a few other things that prevent this game from having a coherent story that we can work with, like Sans using his special attack. And Sans's special attack is most likely Frisk hesitating to attack, since Sans would instantly retaliate. After all, we do wait for him to fall asleep.

And so if you say that Frisk is us, that they see the world through a HUD (but only sometimes, other times they for some reason see the world like we do, from a bird's perspecive), and that everything must make sense (even if it means that some things lose their meaning, like the developer's room), then why bother? Undertale is just a game, there's a whole world outside. Go enjoy it instead of defending some game's story that is, at least according to you, fully meaningful already.

If we want to make a coherent story, we must dismiss some things. Especially with such meta game like Undertale. The HUD was never confirmed to be a part of the in-game universe (even if WE can see it), so I'm going with that.

3.7) We can hear Chara, since we're connected. I thought that was obvious. And Frisk is the one initiating the check. Aaron could be responding to that. Chara is just telling us the data. And I don't stand against the narrator Chara theory. Not in the slightest.

4.1) Yes, but each house has differing amounts of snow on their roof. And Papyrus's shed is very similar to the sentry stations in this regard. Do you think Sans teleported that one as well?

4.2)  Yes, I get it, but the soul pops up nonetheless. Flowey wouldn't risk it. Even if we were super merciful, then he still might think that after Asgore being dead, we could decide to "go home". He does not want that to happen. He wants to keep us in no matter what. So he takes no risks.

4.6) "The third line separates the two from each other, where she yells at you to JUST FACE UPWARDS!! Not facing upwards is when she explains that she wanted it to be fight. "

<span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">If you're saying that she said it only when you didn't face upwards, then let me remind you, during that part of the fight, she repeats the first attack over and over. The bullets don't come from the top only on the 3rd round, they come from the top on all rounds if you keep avoiding them from the very beginning. Though, after the 4th round, she gives up trying to be nice. <span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So, this means that all 4 lines reference your repeated action of not being capable of avoiding the bullets, that are all coming from the same direction.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">And no, "not caring" does NOT mean that she thinks you know how to handle a spear. That's a logical fallacy. It menas that she simply doesn't care whether you know how to handle it or not. I think that's obvious, no?

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Now, let me try to explain everything.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The green soul mode is described as "caring" for something. In this case, caring for the soul. So, it must be tied to the shield, since that's what protects your soul.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">At the beginning of the fight, Undyne made you green. Now, we know that she wanted to make the fight fair. And we know that that refers to her giving you the spear and nothing else, since the only other option - unable to escape, doesn't really seem that fair towards you.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Now, if she gave you the spear, then that means it was in her good will. She didn't have to. You could stay green and get wrecked. But this seems contradictory to the green soul's description, which says the shield is ALWAYS present when you're green.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">This is the inconsistency I was talking about. But fortunately, I think I figured it out now.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The shield is indeed always present when green. So it wasn't like Undyne could choose whether or not to give it to you when you're already green. No, she HAD to make you green in order to give it to you! However, this doesn't mean she had to change the battle system JUST to give you a spear. No, the battle system was never changed, it was just squished into 4 cardinal directions.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So, Undyne wanted to make the fight fair. So she made you green, so that you would receive a spear. I think that's simple enough. Oh, and two more things.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">First, imagine it from her side. By making you green, ergo giving you a HEAVY shield, she makes you unable to move. The fact that you can protect yourself allows her to throw spears with a higher intensity, but it tires her, so she needs to retreat the spear, so that she can hit you at a normal speed again, without you simply deflecting everything. And in those moments when she's tired, you run away. The reason you can't run away while green is because of the said intensity of the bullets. Genius.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Second, Toby programmed the game in a way that makes a cardinal arrangement of the bullets the only possible way to construct the battle with a shield. So, please, don't think that this is how it really happened to Frisk. For them, the bullets could be coming from all possible directions, not just 4. It was the HUD that made them appear like that, for us. As I said, HUD is capable of twisting the reality. This is another thing I want you to realize: Programming limitations shouldn't limit your fantasy and logic.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.10) Because there's no indication of a plot twist. You're claiming that the humans possibly couldn't fall down all within one century, out of like 20. I say that it IS possible. It is improbable, but not impossible. And the monsters don't have to be using a totally different calendar. After all, they didn't evolve separatedly. As I already said, if they were still using some old human calendar, it would be off by no more than a mere month. Maybe even less. Look at the Julian calendar. It's 2 thousand years old, and still off by only two weeks.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.11) Flowey didn't take their soul. So Frisk couldn't black out. And they set up a save file the moment they touched the first save point.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">"If it's in the game, it's evidence." It is most certainly not. This is your problem. You are so fixated on this idea that you would gladly say that it is Frisk who sets up the joystick for us. How do you explain Toriel not dying in hardmode then? How do you explain Asriel talking to us after the game ends, how do you explain the credits battle? How do you explain the developer's room? It is called the developer's room, so it MUST be about Toby. At least according to your logic. It can't be just any dog, it is meant to represent Toby and his creation.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Yes, we shouldn't cherrypick evidence, but we also shouldn't change facts. The fact is, that the dog room is called the developer's room, and everything hints at the fact that it is Toby. Since Toby likes to present himself as that specific dog.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So then, not everything in the game actually is a part of the in-game universe. That's the message I'm trying to convey here. You are a fool if you think otherwise. Undertale is just a game, not a universe. Therefore, not everything in that game can BE in that universe.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Toby didn't spend 3 years working on the story. He spent 3 years programming the game. And your patch logic makes no sense. "If there was a long lasting mistake, he would already fix it, so there's no mistake." You didn't say that, but it's the same thing. He just added some extra dialogue to the PS4 version that's not in the PC version. But the thing is, that extra dialogue was in the files of the PC game since the very beginning. So he just forgot about it. So if there's some mistake, don't think that it's not a mistake just because Toby would have fixed it by now. No, he either doesn't know about it yet, or doesn't care anymore.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And the EM field is not a classical aether. It is not made out of particles. The waves ARE the particles. So no, there's no aether. Just an EM field, something completely different.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.13) But by all laws of logic, we shouldn't be able to beat Asgore in the first place. He was strong enough to beat Undyne when they first met, and Frisk is just a young kid, that can defeat him even when at LV 1. There's something weird with Asgore, not us. And no, I'm not buying your "Frisk always hits everyone invisibly" theory. If Asgore knows about the HUD like you're saying, then he should know about the attacking too, since Sans does, and Asgore, as you said, got that knowledge from Sans. For sure Sans would show him how to dodge the strikes too. Asgore is willingly letting us hit him.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">5) You're the one cherrypicking. Chara put the statements they thought that Frisk said into quotes: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5VjBMNTJrUlJtNlU

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Both of the statements, the one about them looking horrible, AND the question (which is the actual heckle), were made by Chara. It was their narration of what would Frisk say. Not just one of them. Both of them. So Frisk responded to both of them too. Frisk therefore denied calling them ugly, AND heckling them.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And true, "cry" isn't a part of the laugh option. This, coupled with the fact that there was no reason for Chara to cry this anxiously about Snowdrake's mother means, that their description of laughter was a sarcastic one. And that would fit, as they exaggerated it quite a lot. Therefore, the question "What? You didn't do that?" was also sarcastic. Frisk chose that option, and since Chara utterly disagreed, they used sarcasm, and when Frisk disagreed with that (not understanding it was sarcasm), they used sarcasm yet again. But of course, any subsequent attempts yield "but it's not funny," which no longer is sarcasm.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">6) Yes, Frisk's determination. Everyone has their own determination, even Undyne. That part doesn't imply that Frisk is the only one with determination, it implies that it wasn't anyone else's DT. I thought that was obvious enough?