Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-34762984-20180927183143/@comment-34762984-20180928200438

TheHumanAmbassador wrote: This is it:My reaponse to your final part of the post!

So, let's talk about your evidence that Chara didn't posess Frisk.

First off, I'm not sure who said Chara was trying to hide from the monsters. They're not. After all, they wanted Asriel to be utterly horrified by the creepy face, or their slow and steady kill of Asriel, they probably wouldn't mind giving these monsters a scare first. Besides, their goal isn't to kill everyone then blame it on Frisk, their goal is to kill everyone, and do it to the humans as painfully as possible. If they make it known that it's them and not Frisk, that's not a problem in the slightest. The Barrier was their only obstacle. They wait until the end of the credits to make it all the more horrifying, as you said. But to the humans, not (just) to us. (Not sure whether it's also for us or not. That's why "just" is in parenthesis.)

Second, let's talk about that alteration. Firstly, we don't know if Frisk's clothes changed in the Toriel ending or not when Chara takes over (or doesn't). Seeing that they do in the photo, I'm pretty sure they do here as well. The alternative would be that Chara photoshopped the image, after all. ..Okay, they did scribble out everyone, CLEARLY editing, so.. Perhaps that's actually pretty plausible. Secondly, try looking at Frisk's yellowness in the game's normal sprites, and compare it to how yellow Frisk is when they take over. As you can see, the saturation has diminshed by a noticeable amount, Charisk is more "yellowish gray" than regular Frisk. They're not quite Chara's color, but it's still a noticeable alteration from Frisk's color. Though interestingly, that grayish color was there when Frisk was still asleep, before the eyes turned red. This was reflected in the photo. The cheeks could be there too, we don't see where they would be. This implies Chara was starting to take over BEFORE they face us. We just only learn of it at the very end...

Now, it seems we're delving into the game's code itself, trying to look at file names and find out it means. This is the "Hell Valley Ghost Trees" thing all over again! (Super Mario Galaxy 2, and look it up.)

You see, the file names of games are often completely arbitrary. For instance, where's system_information_961? And why isn't system_information_962 simply world_gone? "Self" could just be the object name of Frisk or Chara, and Toby needed a state for them, so he just used that name! Filenames aren't canon. We need to look at the gameplay itself, like we've been doing all the way up until now.

The state is definitely activated at the beginning-Why wouldn't it be-Soulless Pacifist starts at the beginning, and Chara has your SOUL from the very beginning! And, of course, programatically, there is no real difference, and making important variable markers like this early on in the code is quite common.

Now, Chara would feel Frisk's feelings from having their SOUL, as Asriel does the exact same thing, but that's about it. They don't have Frisk's essence, so they're still missing something to fully replicate their behavior.

Now, we'll be delving into the Snowdrake's mother situation. I actually don't believe Frisk disobeyed the player, they just failed in one case, and did something different than expected in another. When you laugh at Snowdrake, Chara also assumes that tears run down your face. That is what I believe Frisk didn't do. In the latter case, Frisk probably TRIED to laugh, but it's not funny anymore. Or it's another case of Chara stepping in and stopping you, like when you try to give more than one gift to Gyftrot. (..How do they do that, anyway? They clearly don't have control over us, and yet.. HOW?!) In the first heckling case, Chara specifically days that you ask them why they're alive. There was probably a different heckle that ACTUALLY happened. Probably one making fun of how they got that ugly in the first place.

Now, Chara taking over is really no way to say that you're not above consequences. CHARA is why everyone's dead again, not Frisk/us. All that message tells me is that Chara's just plain evil. As for "since when did you care", there are two possible answers I could give to Chara. The first is:"Yes, I was like that now. But I've changed since then." If we say that Chara was indeed trying to teach Frisk a lesson, we could add:"You taught me that, didn't you? I've learned. I've changed. I didn't care about them then, but NOW I do. I've changed for the better, I've learned to forgive the monsters. So, why don't you do the same for me?" The second is:"Hahaha!!! Of course I don't! I was just doing what you told me to! And wow, you just made this even better for me-Now the humans met their rough end! MUAHAHAHAHA!!!!"

...It all depends on whether I've changed from my genocidal ways, obviously.

Now, let's go back to the "post-geno means you control Chara."

Chara's narration still refers to "Frisk" as separate from themselves, and unlike supposedly in other cases, they never slip this one up. So they're talking to themselves, pretending to be not one, but TWO people at the same time.. That the duality between Frisk and Chara STILL EXISTS.. And flawlessly.. Yet they can't even fool you into thinking they're always on your side? That's quite fishy.

Now, they don't praise you for doing a Genocide for the second time. That's because that isn't what they want. They WANT the Post-Genocide Pacifist run so they can give the humans a painful death!

So, why does their encouragement of Genocide still remain, you might ask (if you're nochocolate, that is.) Well you have to remember that the encouragement only really begins when your killing begins. At that point, you've aborted Pacifist, and they still see another Genocide as better than another Neutral, because Neutral doesn't break the Barrier for them. As for why they say "another path" rather than specifically Pacifist? They're counting on Flowey to do the rest of that-He guides you to the Pacifist Route once you've done a Neutral Route. Besides, specifically saying they want the route whre the Barrier breaks, or where NOBODY dies, and you befriend everyone, rather than just not being a mass-murderer who loves destroying world like Chara hinted at before would be oddly suspcious, wouldn't it?

Now, let's talk about the destroying/not destroying of the world the second time.

Chara attacks the world, so they do destroy it. But when you reopen the game, the world's already back. It seems that just like after you booted up the game, Chara assumed you wanted to go back, the same thing happened here. Chara, just staying here doesn't mean I want the world back!!

They destroyed the world, then they did a RESET, bringing the world back, and to how it was at the start of the game.

Yes, their goal was never to actually move onto the next. In fact, there might not even BE a "next". The multiverse might not even be canon in Undertale. If it is, though, based on my analysis of Chara's motivations, they have no reason to seek destruction of these other worlds:There's nothing to hate about them, seeing as they were never there before. Besides, that'd mean giving up on that sweet sweet killing of the humans in THIS world-Their REAL goal. Just like before they died, but far, FAR darker. And YES, they are toying with us. This might just explain a certain line that everyone has trouble explaining:"SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL?"

By doing the Genocide Route, you are falling into Chara's bait. You are fulfilling their plan, exactly as they wanted it. You think Chara's helping you out, and will do what you want, when in fact, this was a trick the entire time. You weren't just fufilling your own plans, you were doing exactly what Chara wanted you to do. And since then, Chara's doing a great job convincing you to do whatever it is they want. All because of that same old perverted sentimentality, that they're abusing to further their own desires..

"Wait. So they just give up like that?! They just forget about the whole thing and pretend like it doesn’t mean anything anymore!?!? How is it that a person who is so eager to complete the Geno Run; someone so filled with determination; someone who’s not afraid to keep assailing you with that blood-red kill count even when you spare common monsters; someone who’s not afraid to berate you for letting Snowdrake escape, all the sudden just give up when you fail to make the criteria?"

Sparing common monsters doesn't abort the route. Failing to meet the criteria DOES. Why should they encourage you to kill when doing so will no longer result in the Genocide Ending that they're looking for? Besides, by doing this, you've shown you don't care about this whole ordeal that much after all. By the way, Chara helps you out with Waterfall as well, telling you not to proceed yet if you haven't exhasuted the kill count. Why? Because right afterwards is Monster Kid, and if you do proceed, you've aborted the Genocide Route. And yes, in both cases, they're things you might miss by accident. We're esentially mirror opposites right here:You say this convinces Chara that we're good after all, and don't have a motive, and thus, you pass, I say this convinces Chara you don't care about following the plan after all, and thus, you fail.

We really have no way of telling who got this one right, at least not alone-We'll have to find out what Chara wants in other segments. So your saying that Chara did all of this to get after the humans of their world while I say that Chara did all of that to get after the ones in OUR world. Either than that (and our differences regarding if Frisk and the player are separate entities) we're pretty much saying the same thing:

Chara wasn't exactly your partner; they only saw you as a means to an end. And one more thing, of all the Chara theories I've seen on the internet, yours is my favourite. You find a good balance of light and dark in your own assertions. I still hold by my own assertions about Chara, but if you still hold to your own, I can and will accept that.