Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180717205353

"O rly? How come they keep expressing themselves around you as if you were just another monster? I'm pretty sure that's what they're doing. They think you're one of them."

Initiating a FIGHT and aiming bullets at your SOUL isn't representing yourself.

"As a human living in the Underground, monsters may attack you. When this happens, you will enter a FIGHT."-Toriel (before fighting the Dummy)

"After all, monsters come in all shapes and sizes. And by the looks of how some monsters fret their overall situation even in your presence, I doubly think so."

NPCs? Look, not everyone wants you to die. Except in Genocide. Besides, let's say they did. Why isn't acting friendly so that you'll act friendly to Asgore when you can't spare him a good idea?

"Besides, why shouldn't any of them be a "CO" anyways? What makes you think ALL of them would react so calmly to our presence?"

Refer to above. But here's a new quote. For every time you repeat this argument in this post, I'll just offer another quote against it.

"Hey, don't worry about it ASGORE. I think everybody's tried to kill Frisk at least once."-Undyne (True Pacifist Epilogue)

"And lastly, if they knew you're a human, why did none of them alert the authorities, why was Papyrus the first and only one?"

This question applies either way. Specifically, to Gerson, who is confirmed to know you're a human in Genocide (and doesn't alert anyone) and is all friendly in every other route. Also, there's an easy explanation. Toriel wanted to protect the human, so Sans would be the first to see you. But we already know about the promise, so Papyrus is next. And what do you know, he altered the authorities right away! So, since Papyrus already did it, someone else doing it would be redundant. Why tell the authorities what they already know?

"Because no one expected a human. If a mob came, I would have guessed somebody recognized us. Didn't happen. So maybe, an encounter is necessary to recognize us? Didn't happen either."

I'm purely with Malice on this one.

"I don't know anything about that. All I see is that we sometimes stumble upon lone monsters, or groups of monsters, while waltzing around."

I clarify above.

"Oh and saying the Dogi are the only ones who cannot recognize us makes no sense. They did it with their smell."

Yeah, they do at first. I meant being able to fool them and them not recognize us anymore after the re-sniff. I thought you'd ask how we could fool them if the HUD made it clear we're still a human. Guess not, and I answered a question you never thought to ask.

"Plus, they were trained into royal guards. If anyone isn't capable of recognizing us, it is the monsters from the repetitive encounters, who don't say anything at all."

Yes, the Dogi recognize you at first. I meant post-sniffing. When the narration flat-out says they think you're a lost puppy.

"What I said applies to you too. Try not to repeat yourself. All I'm doing is correcting your assumptions about my statement. Summarize your point into a single paragraph and then reply. Try not to repeat yourself."

You had repeated arguments, so I had to do that. But, now I've gotten a better method.

"Oh and if a bunch of humans saw an ET, they would not keep chatting with one another, I'm positive on that."

"Everyone in the world.. I can feel their hearts beating as one. And we all have ONE goal. To defeat YOU."-Undyne (before turning Undying)

Still have quotes left over. Let's see how many I'll have to use.

"What's the difference? :P"

One is simulated, the other is simply that the laws of physics were magically defined by a deity. The simulation hypothesis is a subset of I.D, not one and the same.

"So you're proposing the HUD evolved naturally? That's something we can discuss after we settle on who can observe it and who cannot."

HUD is natural, exactly!! IT NATURALLY APPEARED! It's a part of the universe!

Oh, and evolved? Well, I suppose that's a possibility. It took a whole picosecond for the electroweak force to split into the electromagentic and weak forces, after all. (That's ~1.86x10^31 Plank time)

"That's mostly the saves. I rather meant the battle interface. The saves aren't really that weird, unless we're also counting the starting menu screen. In which case, it's friggin bizarre."

Well, I already have my arguments on that.

"Making baseless assumptions not mentioned by the game, and then using them to say a simulation is most likely? Really?"

"Yeah. Why SHOULD the overworld work like our world? Hmm? If you wanted me to embrace the idea of the existence of the HUD, then you should have known I will try to normalize it across the entirety of the game."

The HUD existing on the Surface doesn't give it additional properties not defined by the game. I only go as far as what the game explicitly tells us.

"Not really. If we assume all of those are correct for a moment, we will realize that the idea of fonts without a computer to generate them is much weirder than essence editing (the essence is what stores a monster's memories - maybe outright their entire mind even). Because the latter can be explained through magic, while the former is... what exactly? (And if you're about to say magic, then explain how. In the case of essence editing, we can say that the HUD, whatever it is, sends magical signals to modify the magical structure of the essence. What exactly is generating the HUD again? A magical computer? A magical computer where?)"

Changing the memories of everyone would first imply that monsters and/or humans were around simce the dawn of the HUD, and being a part of the universe, that means humans or monsters were around from the very beginning. Not only that, kt would need to be coded in a very soecific way. Sure, we have signals to modify the structure, but in what way? How do we get the orderly fashion that it happens? Why the same way every time? And why can't similar signals be what makes the HUD buttons appear? The accuracy for a few letters with only straight lines is far less than billions of bits of memory PER MONSTER.

"A (physical) law is something that exists everywhere, unless constraints are specified."

Then the HUD isn't contrained to the Underground. I see no probelm with it.

"Low. Hence my question. The odds of the HUD evolving are low too for example."

So are the odds of US evolving. On Earth. That's why the fine-tuning argument is a thing.

"Because they're being mind-controlled was my answer to that."

And which one is less bizzare? As you said, mind control's the conspiracy theorist argument.

"So... we agree that monsters can dodge normally, but cannot when it comes to human attacks? Afaik the HUD only takes one form. So unless you're suggesting visible attacks for a monster HUD, which by the way you have no proof for really, we must assume that the HUD is non-existent for monsters. Which would honestly make more sense because it also seems to be tied to the SLR ability, which is unavailable to monsters."

Yes, monsters can't see or use the HUD. That's kind of a thing. Also, we can see monster attacks, so that flat-out proves monsters don't have invisible attacks.

"Aye, a type-4 parallel universe you mean. Well, I would agree that such universes may observe different universal constants, but I honestly don't know about a total simultaneity halt. That still seems possible to me only in VR."

Not just universal constants. I mean completely original laws of physics. Perhaps for example the two opposing charges just annihalate each other, like matter and anti-matter. (This particular law isn't neccesarilly true in Undertale, but you get the point.) I mean, we have literal magic. That requires a new set of laws already.

"Which is impossible, unless you're a delusional moron who doesn't know how computers/games work."

The player technically doesn't exist. Once again, we're supoosed to roleplay Frisk. We ARE Frisk in the game. The whole point of a roleplaying game is to ROLEPLAY as your character. Be one with the protagonist..

"I was just about to reply, thinking you meant he figured out that Chara is the narrator. Well then, if he didn't, then the final scene clearly wasn't canon to the in-game story."

Oh, I must have been thinking of the wrong scene. You meant Flowey's last warning, didn't you? Yeah, I was talking about the Genocide Speech, thinking you were referring to how Flowey seemed to speak of Youtubers. In this scene, I already told you how Flowey could have deduced this.

1->He feels Chara.

2->The narrator is a thing, separate from the human

3->The human is NOT Chara. (Flowsriel only learns that in Pacifist)

4->That leaves the narrator to be what he felt.

"A what."

You know, the void from Omega Flowey's world?

"Define "not explicitly mentioned by the game." As in, if it's not in the game's window, it's not canon? That would rule out the name of the game changing, but not the Kickstarter backer names for example."

That takes place long after monsters made it to the Surface. Is it really that far-fetched that the monsters met some humans, and Asriel used those names? Sure, they match the backers' names, but that's using information from outside the game. We're not supposed to take the backers as canon, just like Toby Fox isn't canon. Those are humans.

Also, this happened in the credits, in a realm never mentioned again, that we don't even know about within the game..

"Well it didn't look the same to me. Buttons scattered all over the place was the most meta thing about it."

Which match the HUD precisely. Not to mention the SAVE and LOAD messages, and Flowey's HP bar.

"In fact, it was so non-meta, I could just say those buttons were us finding a figurative opportunity window and striking."

When it's not always a good oppertunity, and sometimes, there's one and the button doesn't appear. Why can't we just press X to attack?

"If this is how the monsters see it, then that only plays towards my theory that they aren't familiar with the invisible blow tactic. Which is even stranger, considering we could see Flowey's attacks just fine. Theory hole?"

Flowey was using magical attacks. I told you, only the slash is invisible to monsters. And only humans can use the slash attack. Plus, we can see the HUD still, so what's to say they WOULDN'T be invisible to someone who CAN'T see the HUD? That's why we can see Chara's slash attack.

"If cheating a part of the HUD is real, then losing the reset ability but retaining the reload ability is real too."

Using an exploit that still technically falls in line with the HUD's laws is not equivelant to actually breaking explicit laws. Remember, turns are ONLY a thing for humans because SOULs can't reach the FIGHT button while trapped inside the box. If you can reach the button anyway somehow, you can fight.

"But there isn't an F4 button in the game. Only on our keyboards. So, if we want to futher push the idea of everything being canon exactly the way we see it on the screen, then closing the game to reload is canon, which would confirm what I asked above, that Frisk can leave the world."

Perhaps there is more to the world than what's on our screen? Yes, what we see on the screen is canon, but that doesn't rule out everything we don't see on screen from existing. For example, all multiples of 6 are composite. Does that mean ONLY multiples of 6 can be composite?

"I mean, if we say there is a "reload" button that we just don't see, then what else is there that we don't see, what else differs from our screen versus the in-game world? Could it be... everything about the HUD? I mean, why not? What's the difference, amirite?"

Adding something isn't the same as taking something away.

"That too is managed by a program. Computers are like calculators, except you can program them."

Perhaps similar to the forumals that are used in the laws of physics?

"Why does it exist then?"

Why do the laws of physics exist? The answers to both of these questions are likely similar.

---

"Yet Papyrus was the first one to actually notify the authorities."

Answered above

"Even speaking of humans and Asgore's plan in front of you. At that point, it would be weird if they DIDN'T mention their realization that you're a human, if they knew it."

Actually, it's quite the opposite. They have no reason to collectively tell the story of Asriel to you if they think you're a monster-When just about everyone seems to know the story. It'd be redundant. As for you being free, remember, "free" isn't always a good thing.. .

Seriously, though. That story, just before Asgore's fight, seems to make you want to feel bad for him. ..Maybe even have less of a will to fight, and throw the fight, to let Asgore win. For the sake of all the nice monsters met so far.

Now, if "just because" is an answer for creationists only.. Then seriously, answer Malice's questions. After all, seeing as you're not accepting the answer, you're not a creationist. So answer Malice's questions, non-creationist! What caused the Big Bang? Why do the laws of physics exist as they do? I have an answer for the wind blowing, it's the result of the unequal heating of the air. But as for these questions? Come on.

The point Malice is trying to make is that we likely just don't have the answers. Those questions from Malice (save the one I answered myself) are ones we can't anseer. The HUD's "origins" (if it has one) is the same way. (By "why do we exist", I'll specify that this is talking about consiousness, not just biological life. In essence, why aren't we p-zombies?)

The rest Malice fully answered, so I have nothing to add there.