Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27136653-20180228205701/@comment-27136653-20180313080248

"You would be correct. And misunderstanding my point at the same time. I never said New Home rests on the CORE. I said the CORE was created to get past the cliff. Also, MTT isn't on the higher side. It's connected to the LOWER part of the CORE, meaning that it's on the BOTTOM side of the cliff."

But the CORE is built to be touching the magma. So it cannot really be sitting high up on a cliff. But yes, perhaps the MTT resort was built as an extension of the CORE. Still, I don't see the point of building an entire powerplant in order to bridge two places. True, you would technically kill two birds with one stone by doing this, but logically, wouldn't the very first priority be to actually get to the other side first? Some easy access route must have been made first. And I take it this is how the monsters usually get around. There surely must be more to Hotland than those elevators. For example, houses and such. Surely the elevators aren't the only mean of transport between the places, the underground simply cannot be that linear. We just never had a chance to explore them.

"That could only be built from the top down, by carving out/mining/removing half of the stone to form the staircase. The whole point is they have to get to the top. If they were already at the top, they could have formed New Home already. They have to get to the top first. It's a catch-22. (And no, you can't just take the stone out from the bottom. If you do that.. AVALANCHE!!!)"

How do you think the people who made the staircase in that image did it then? Surely THEY didn't start on the top. Plus, as I said, I don't think it's a vertical dropoff. I mean, we don't have any proof for that? There could be a safer passage somewhere, or a not-so-steep one that could be climbed much more easily. And actually, I am positive that there is one. Take the real world for example. Where does exist a natural rock formation that is just a straight dropoff all the way across? It's improbable. It's much more likely that the cliff formation allowed for an easier ascend SOMEWHERE.

But even then, if it was just a vertical dropoff, it could still be possible to climb it by building scaffolds. I still don't understand why you would need to build a powerplant there in order to climb it.

"Yeah, as the article states, they're not safe. Hence, them being discontinued And that's just traveling less than 8 meters horizontally-The main direction is still vertical. Now, try to make that 500 meters horizontally and see what happens."

Are you dumb? They're not safe because they don't stop. I just wanted to show that elevators that travel in multiple directions can be built. There's even one such elevator on the Eiffel tower. You however implied that they work only because the direction is vertical. Which is an idiotic claim for two reasons: Elevators that travel horizontally or combine multiple directions exist in real life, and elevators that travel horizontally exist in the game.

I'm starting to think you keep arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Shall we just stop this and say that I won? Because you're clearly unable to present any good arguments here and are just nitpicking the silliest of things and saying that they prove you right, even if they have nothing to do with the topic.

You know what? I'll do exactly that. We've been debating elevators for long enough. Making structures to climb cliffs is easier than building an entire powerplant, the chance that there was a safer passage somewhere is much higher than if there was just a vertical dropoff all the way across, and the fact that they're using elevators doesn't prove that it is a vertical dropoff all the way across.

Besides, I thought all of this was logical, reasonable to assume.

"Yes, you, the reader. The one who wants to learn more about our world! You DO want to know about our history, right monsters? Oh, humans? Here, let us tell you our tale. #MonsterImpression?"

Were any of your own history textbooks written that way? I don't think so. As I said, they do look like a personal documentation to me. But all of this doesn't matter anyways, because why exactly would the explanation need to be written before the actual events as you're saying? To my knowledge, there's no conventional rule that would say so, so I don't think this was Toby's intention. Besides, it is perfectly reasonable to first write the story and THEN the explanation. It could be done like this for the sake of continuity preservation. And I'm talking generally here.

Alas, there's no proof that a part 9 ever existed, so Occam's razor, Chara's story is (was) contained in one of the missing volumes.

"Also, each page we read seems to take place directly after an event. For example, where we start from Volume 1 takes place directly after the war (which also appears in Volume 1, just in the pages before then, which we can't see) The date of the nonsters surrendering to the humans likely WAS written down, just like the date the Declaration of Independence was signed, and the date Britain surrendered. And since the monsters retreated directly afterwards, no need to repeat the date-It's the same day. Volumes 6-8 not mentioning dates is self-explantory:They aren't even talking about history. As for Volume 4, it's clear this was ALSO directly after an event:By my theory, the event is when it was agreed upon that there were no emtrances or exits, and by yours, it was when Chara fell, which would almost certainly have a date given."

Which means that the volumes 6 to 8 also follow an event. Not that they preceed an event. And as you said, the date would be written in the passage that's talking about the event, and not in the aftermath passage. And logically, that would be true no matter what the event is. I don't think Chara's story is an exception to this rule.

Also, if they stopped fearing the humans because there were no entrances or exits, then that would mean that nothing got through the barrier up to that point, not even trash. But as I showed, they got their technology FROM the trash. So when exactly did they think that nothing would be able to go through, if not here? Well, this is why I originally speculated that the hole wasn't there. In order to be so sure, they would have to look everywhere. And if they found a hole, they wouldn't be sure if something could get in, unless something fell flat on the barrier in the hole and stayed there. Which, of course, never happened. But if they didn't find a hole anywhere, they would DEFINITELY be sure that nothing can get in.

"Well, why aren't they just called personal notes? Why aren't the original names being used? (By the way, I used the Quran and Bible for a reason-They're both compilations of many individual works-In the case of the Bible, over many centuries. I used them to demostrate that compliers just stick with the original name, rather than assigning them new names. ...They're the only ones I could find.)"

They explain history, so whoever compiled them called it the "Monster History." Why is this so hard to understand for you?

And exactly, they're the only ones you could find. You're using induction to prove that relabelling can never happen. Just like the people in the past used induction to deduce that there are only white swans. Oh wait what's this?

http://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.net/s3/digital-cougar-assets/AusGeo/2016/07/11/62712/Black_Swan_in_Australia.JPG

"Specifically, "our new home". I thought that's what you meant when you said it was written as if the events were recent."

What I meant by that is that the way the events are described makes it look as if the books were written around that time, not in the present. It makes sense to write it this way if some monster was telling this to Frisk for example, but the little things such as the remark about Asgore's naming skills really makes it look more personal and subjective than it should be.

"..Then if the script was changed to make it more history-like, we can't we say the new, revised version, was meant to ezplain history?"

No, that's the point of this discussion. Not something we can or cannot say. And the script was changed to match the current one they're writing in. Not the other way around. Heh, I mean, why would they change it to some writing that is by the looks of things no longer in use? Or maybe, it is, since the narrator said that we can 'just make out the words,' which is implying that the ancient script consisted of at least the same letters as the current one. Real world examples of completely readable scripts that are no longer in use are scripts such as the Carolingian Miniscule or Fraktur.

"Gerson didn't know exactly how they retreated, just that they did. And it probably would have taken him a while to write the books. Enough time for him to remember what he had to.. After all, the "fuzzy memory" is referring to where "Fluffybuns" comes from, and he ends up remembering in the end. Considering how the game can be beaten in less than a day (Froggit even mentions it was one day), that means he got it back in one day. It can take months to make a book."

He retreated with them, we know that, since he was there. Logically, he WOULD know how they retreated. So why are you saying he didn't? He clearly did. And what even is your point? So it takes months to write a book, so what? He is at least a thousand years old, he had plenty of time. Besides, who said HE wrote the books? As I said, it's more likely they're just compilations.

''"He WAS a warrior. Now he's a historian. If he was still a warrior, we'd see him in the Royal Guard, not explaining the Delta Rune and making fun of Asgore's names. "You know what I always say.. King Fluffybuns can't name for beans!" At some point, there was a shift. And my premise is that he starting working on those books directly after the "shift"."''

Sure. He shifted. But I don't think he started writing educational books. Maybe he was simply taking notes. That's the least he would have done. But no, I don't think he wrote the books. And he definitely didn't write all of them. That's just not likely. And so, if he didn't write all of them, it makes sense to question whether he really did write even a single one. Could it be that his notes were merely incorporated into the books, which were written by someone else?

"1000 years is the lifespan of an average monster. The only monsters we know the lifespan for is Toriel, Asgore, and Gerson, and they all lived this long. Gerson debunks the idea of long life being solely for Boss Monsters. So, yeah.. 1000 years is actually quite normal."

It isn't tho? Most monsters we meet are quite young. Toriel and Asgore are the exception of age, yes, but Gerson is a turtle. You know, one of those creatures that live extremely long? Boss monsters are implied to have infinite timespans. But Gerson is the only monster we know of that is that old. Undyne even emphasizes that he fought in the war, as if it was something unique. Monster timespans are weird, yes, but really, the only people we know are really old are Toriel, Asgore and Gerson. No one else. So I wouldn't say it applies to everyone. Simply because boss monsters naturally do that, and turtles are implied to do that. If you find an instance of a monster that isn't implied to do that actually doing that, then that shall be counted as a point to you.

"Well, you're right that you don't understand my reasoning. You're missing the point again. I mentioned us opening up a random page for a reason. YES, the book was describing events right after the war in the pages we read. I'm saying BEFORE them, in the pages we skipped ahead past, there were books describing the war itself. Because we opened up a random page, not the first page. I said the book didn't START with events right after the war."

Alrighty. So back to the point. If the books are arranged encyclopedically, I wonder then why do they start with the war, instead of explaining what monsters actually are? Or... do they explain that? Keep in mind that a random page could very well be the first page. So this indeed could have been the beginning of the book. But whatever. All of this aside, this is the monster history. It would make no sense if it started by explaining something totally unrelated to history for each chapter. I don't remember my history books doing that. So no, I don't think there's any volume number 9.

"You also need to understand how such a thing's possible, why Asriel was able to cross the barrier this way (hence Volume 7), why Asriel had the power to destroy the humans there, making Asriel's choice not to fight a significant one. And, all at the same time, why Asgore didn't just capture Chara's SOUL, for later on in his declaration of war, what happened to Asriel.."

Yes. Not really history now, is it? As I said, these passages were a footnote explaining the text they talked about previously. Not something needed to be understood before continuing. Mixing soul mechanics and history together doesn't seem likely here. Especially if the title is "Monster history" and not "Everything about monsters."

Also, the fact that it is called "monster history" and not "our history" reinforces my point. There is a clear discrepancy between the point of narration here. So whoever compiled these was not the same person that wrote those individual lines.

"I see. Well, it's simply the case of "all the holes were sealed off." It MUST be this way, because the monsters already had a rebuttal to the former-They already fell through a hole. That's how they got underground in the first place. Whether it be from Ruins or New Home, there's a hole underground. That one they fell through in the first place. So, if it was referring to the other, that no exits exist at all, that means they couldn't have fallen through any hole at all, whoch we KNOW is false!"

Entrances, not holes. And also, as I said many times, they did not have to enter through the Ruins hole. They could have entered from the other end just as likely. And yeah, you're correct. So then, I have one more question. Why were they afraid of the humans? Was it because they knew from the very beginning that the humans could enter through the barrier, or because the humans had the power to undo the spell? (presumably)

"We actually don't know-The plaques contradict each other here. One set of plaques say yes, they can get through, while another says no, they can't, because there's no entrances or exits. And they voth connect to each other as well-One says anything could get through, but only ones with a powerful SOUL can leave, this being why the monsters are trapped.. And the latter one saying that no entrances or exits exist, hence, humans won't fall, a human SOUL can't be used to leave. (This is further evidence it means all holes were sealed off.)"

Which is why I originally speculated that they were written in different time periods. Obviously this contradiction is so obvious that no single person would have made it. But all of this begs another question. How the hell did they figure all of this out? https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5U2pIcGxMQ1NzdHM

Surely the humans didn't tell them, and there's no possible way they could have tested this out either. I'm thinking those plaques that talk about leaving the barrier were written after Asriel died, the very last one is the most ancient one, when they didn't even know that stuff can pass through, but the one that talks about destroying it... I just. I have my own headcanon about this, but it's some borderline alternative universe stuff.

Actually, take all of those images, but leave out the 3rd one. Suddenly, the paradox is gone. And the 3rd one is the one I'm speculating was written after Asriel's death. So then the question is, why are they arranged in this way? Perhaps the 3rd one overwrote a different one, that said how no one can leave no matter what. That would make sense. Something like "There's no way to bypass this spell. For us to leave, the spell would have to be reversed." would be the 3rd one. The ancient 3rd one, that is.

So, whoever overwrote that one didn't bother with continuity, which is why we now have the paradox. They merely wanted to correct the 3rd plaque. But then that begs yet another question. Why were the others not overwritten? Well... why were they written there to begin with? For everyone to gaze upon while passing through Waterfall? I really think that this route that we took in the game was not frequented at all, else none of these plaques would be there today most likely. Heck, the Nice Cream dude overwrote one of them himself.

So yeah. I think some wise monster remembered these when he learned what exactly happened (so he knew that Asriel absorbed the soul) and took the time to find this plaque and change it. Technically, he/she/it/wut had no compelling reason to change the one that said no human would come down there.

But that one about reversing the spell, I just...

"The events of the anime had to be recorded somehow. SOMEONE had to be recording the events with a camera. But then, there's scene cuts! In order for that to be possible, the camera would have to move to be recording from the new angle. Either that, or it swapped to a different recording from a different camera. Or, you know, anime is fake, but Undyne's not willing to believe it, so if we want to interpret what she's saying, we can't say it's fake to her! We must instead try and figure out her intepretations on how the events of the show got recorded! I mean, they are real, right? ANIME IS REAL, RIGHT?!?! /undyne impression"

"Exactly. That anime depicts their true lives. That anime IS their true lives. That their true lives were literally recorded, and what we see as anime are recordings of real events. So, what technology would be required to do this? To record the very lives of some main characters? To have there be an anime that's actually real?"

Are you testing my patience again, dearie? .3.

Anime isn't recorded. Anime is animated. Undyne believes what she sees, that humans literally wield giant swords and are capable of mind manipulation. Take it that she considers this as some sort of a documentary insight into humans' lives. She doesn't think anime itself is real. That would be impossible anyways. She only thinks the 'technology' shown in it is real.

Got it? Good. Because it's important for the next part.

"Which is anime. As I said, Undyne has very skewed views on what constitues as "modern technology"."

"Yeah. And it's not the tech Undyne means, because to her, anime's MUCH cooler than THAT stuff. Even better than a robot with an artifical SOUL! BECAUSE IT'S THE REAL HISTORY OF HUMANS, RECORDED FOR TELEVESION!! #okayhowmanyundyneimpressionswilltherebehere"

Yes, Undyne thinks anime is real. She thinks the 'technology' portrayed in anime is what the humans are using. Would you say that she considers this the "modern" technology? Let's just assume that she is for now.

By that logic, the only anime thing in the underground would be... the anime itself? If anime is the only modern technology in the existence according to Undyne, according to you, then this would be by extension true. But anime is merely a documentary about the humans, isn't it? It's not the actual technology they're using, it's just a video about that technology. So does that mean then, that the only piece of modern technology in the entire underground is that giant sword she made with Alphys? Is this what she's been referring to when she talked about 'modern technology?'

But wait! She said the garbage dump is the sole reason the monsters have modern technology. Not that she does (she actually said "we," but it was to Frisk over the phone, so she meant the entire monster population by that presumably). So, did she make swords for everyone or something then? I don't think so. Asgore certainly doesn't know what anime is, so this clearly isn't a technology that the monsters are employing. So logically, she must have been calling something else modern here, not the 'anime tech.' Which disproves your claim.

...

To be honest, I never thought I would have to sink so low. To explain to someone the difference between thinking that something showcased is real, versus the concept of showcasing something being real, and also the difference between 'modern' and 'cool.' I mean, if you think that Undyne really meant anime when she mentioned modern technology and not the actual modern technology the monsters possess, then that's your problem. I can't fix stupid. But I can give you an advice. Stop the scientific approach to things. Clearly you're not good at it. It leads you to assuming things like this. That whatever anyone says, they mean it literally. No, Undyne doesn't think that the 'concept' of anime is real. She merely thinks the things she sees in it are real. Which is what she said anyways, so I don't understand why you would ever think otherwise.

"Not to Undyne it's not!! (Also not to Bratty and Catty!) And duh, of course they didn't use the trash. Most of them don't even know what anime is. Not even Asgore himself knows what it is."

Not all trash is anime my dude. There's literally a computer down there. Also, some astronaut food. Though I doubt that one has any scientific value. Also, Catty and Bratty don't know anything about anime. They merely know that Alphys likes to collect it. So yes, duh, of course they used the trash. Since how else would they get all their modern technologies, amirite? ;D