Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180731161640

"Or maybe the essence is IN the monster dust. After all, it's not the dust that came to life, it was the flower."

That works too. In which case, well, we still don't know what human essence would be contained within.. But it's more than likely within their body somewhere..

"Or perhaps it's not mood-based. It seems you guys keep confusing traits and moods."

It's based off of traits that actually help you solve problems. Not whether you're, say, optimistic or pessimistic, whether you like battling or not..

"If anything, DT is a mood here. But say, is the fundamental color of a soul changing on its own even possible? If not, it's not really about "feeling" integrity, is it?"

Not on its own. You'd have to change your entire strategy for your SOUL to change.

"So then, what IS a dominant trait? The one we display the most often? But what if we oscillate between a few specific traits most of the time, due to the environment around us? Wouldn't the dominant one then be one of those?"

It's whatever you have the most of. And yes, it's probably one of those.

"Doesn't that imply that the traits are environment-based? And are other color combinations possible? Why should red be the only mixed trait? Why IS it the only mixed trait?"

The six naturally merge into whatever the red trait is. This is not the case with the other 56 combinations. (By the way, the same "problem" applies to the fighting style theory. Why can't there be a SOUL that uses a mixture of two fighting styles, but not all six? ..We probably have the same answer.)

"See, making these based on actual psychological traits inevitably leads us to base them on the environment. And that implies a mood. You can't do psychological traits without doing moods. And you can't do mood-less psychological traits without resorting to a lifelong personal philosophy. Did the the humans just decide one day in the womb that their lifelong philosophy would be patience, or bravery, et cetera?"

No. They didn't. But who said the SOUL traits were always what they were? Who said that the human that we see as patience NOW was patience in the womb?

"So what if it's not connected to their psychology at all? What if their traits are just a rough estimate of their personality, but don't actually have any effect upon them?"

The trait is a reflection of their personality, yes. The effect, not the cause.

"In Glitchtale, if you obeyed them, you could gain magical powers. That's a nice additive headcanon to such idea. But then again, a bit assumptive."

Compared to all the other weird headcanons it has, this one isn't all that bad.

"My current stance is that the traits vaguely represent some aspect of their personality, not their personality overall. And this aspect may differ based on hobbies. For example, I like math. Does that mean my soul has to be purple or cyan?"

..No. It's not like you're using mental notes to solve most of your problems. However.. I link purple with trial-and-error now, and analysis with yellow. ...You'll see why later down the post. (No, you don't necessarily have yellow here either-Doesn't mean you analyze your way through most problems, in an accurate fashion.)

"Does that mean that everyone with the same soul as me must be like me? Of course not, there are so many hobbies, not just 7."

Right. It's based on your methods, not the hobbies you like.

"So inevitably, we come to the conclusion that the soul traits describe how you approach your own tastes, and your own problems. Everyone's comfort bubble is a bit different. Why can't a soldier be kind? Why can't a judge be brave? Why can't an athlete be patient?"

And THIS is why the idea of a DOMINANT trait is important. First off, the first question's not as much of a problem as it seems, when you consider drafting. Maybe they're not brave at all, and were drafted. In fact, there's a thing called a battle plan. You might actually have a yellow dominant trait. ..But you're more likely to have an orange one in this case, assuming you WEREN'T drafted. Bravery might in fact be something you need as a judge-You don't want some threats from the defendant to get you to rule Not Guilty, after all.. (Threats. Not actual evidence that they're innocent, or the fact that there's no evidence that they're guilty.) But justice is the dominant trait here. And for atheletes? Well.. You DO need to wait until the right time on several occasions.. Though the time you have to wait is usually just in seconds. Bravery is usually your dominant trait here-As in many cases, you quite literally have to rush through the obstacles. (The hurdles..)

"People in my opinion have the wrong idea about the traits. They have no scientific basis, which is evident just by trying to turn them into a fair logical system."

Those who try to turn the non-deterministic idea of free will (and traits are an extension of that) into a deterministic set of rules and laws are in fact going the wrong way, as this gets them nowhere. It's not deterministic:If it were, it wouldn't be free will.

"And I know this personally. You are very different on the outside than on the inside. You may act differently when engaging in different hobbies. You may massively change your behavior just based on your environment."

True. It's what you mainly use to solve problems that determines your trait here.

"If nothing fits, then what does? So far, the chakra and fighting style systems haven't failed me."

If nothing fits, then nothing fits. It's really that simple. Instead of randomly looking through possibilities, and then looking at the six traits, in my final post, I decided I'd look through the traits, and piece together what they mean.

"For example, that. That's explained in the chakra system as a symmetry. Kinda like a neutron being both the sum of positive and negative charges, while having no charge at all. And in the fighting style system as having no preference."

That works. But do note that my response was to Mago, and Mago suggested if you don't have any of the traits, you have the red trait. You see, they believe that there ARE possibilities completely outside of what the six traits have to offer, and all of these extra traits are meshed into the red trait. Which COMPLETELY contradicts the flag. Here's a hint:To better understand what I mean, look at the context. Look the post I was responding TO, so you know what I'm arguing against. Remember, they're in denial that red is the six traits combined, despite the fact that the flag CLEARLY STATES SO.

"I don't think traits develop. That would imply an unchanging trait would be established only in early adulthood."

Who said the traits were unchanging, though? If the other humans were anything like Frisk, they were only underground for one day. There's really not much evidence to suggest that, for example, the human that had a SOUL of patience ALWAYS had their SOUL as a SOUL of patience

"Then you aren't thinking correctly about it."

Or blue says the exact same thing, so we have to say that it's something you need for both. And hey, you need blue for red, so.. of course you need to be yourself for red! (You're extending the idea of doing things in your original style from blue, over to the other five traits as well.. In red, the traits aren't separated, they are united into one big unified trait.. red.)

"That's because DT is not a trait, and because you're in denial. The flag LITERALLY said that it's a mix of the 6 other traits."

Red is indeed a mix of the other 6 traits..

"I cannot imagine. How does rustling through leaves make you use all 6 traits? How does hoping that the mouse will one day get the cheese make you use all 6 traits? Now you're just stretching it."

The SAVE points give you DT, not doing all those random things the narrator's talking about. They got things wrong about their narration before, and we never see Frisk playing with any leaves. The SAVE points are also in quite odd locations for such narration-Why does only ONE leaf pile do it, and not, say.. Some of the other leaf piles? It really doesn't make sense if we do that-It's the SAVE points. Chara stops narrating altogether about the SAVE points in New Home, but they still work, confirming all you need is a SAVE point to get filled with determination. So, we extend it outwards, and.. It's the SAVE point.

"you're passionate about doing it (green), you'll do it even if things get scary (orange), you'll push through no matter how hard it gets (purple), no matter how long you have to wait (cyan), gaining breat accuracy (yellow) over time, and to uphold the principals you put down, by being yourself (blue)."

"Let me know when your definition makes it into the dictionary."

That'll happen around the time that an explanation for all the parts of YouTube become the dictionary definition of what YouTube is. ..Which is probably going to be around the same time Half-Life 3 releases. And since Valve can't really count to three in releases..

..Let me know when the first thing I mentioned-A detailed explanation for what YouTube IS becoming it's definition happens.

"Determination, in layman's terms, is a substance that allows you to do the impossible with your soul. And it usually concerns power. E.g.: don't have enough power? DT will provide you with more."

Hm, another word that doesn't fit in with its dictionary meaning!

"You can twist the meaning of any positive word so that it implies a connection with determination. Anyone can do that. You aren't proving anything."

That suspicion is exactly why I decided I would start from scratch in the post afterwards, when it comes to looking at the traits. After reading that, THEN look at this quote again. It should make much more sense.

"The save points stop giving you determination at the end. Or maybe the narrator just goes silent."

It's the latter.

"To my yet-sane knowledge, alive humans aren't the same creatures as demons."

Where does it say that Chara was even a human, though?

..Oh, Asriel's story.

Do note that I didn't actually believe this:I was using Mago logic on Mago, since they said that if the game doesn't say it's true, it's not true.. and CAN'T be true. (Seriously, come on:"Noncanon" =/= "Bizzaro canon")

Now, I'll use my Mago logic again in this argument:If this one looks like a crazy argument, that's because it is. You don't have to answer this question, unless you want to defend Mago and their reasoning here. I don't see this as an actual problem with the idea of Chara not always being a totally 100% one-dimensional villain. But using Mago logic, it's a BIG problem.

Where's the evidence that Chara wasn't a demon the moment that they awaken as Charrator? And evidence that they weren't evil as a human? Evidence that they weren't always literally a megalomaniac that killed just for the fun of it? The Genocide Ending really seems to imply this about Chara..

"ARE they on the surface though? Are you ABSOLUTELY sure on that? What if they simply went back to the undeground to execute the true reset?"

We share sentiments here.

"There is no indication we were there."

...If we weren't there, we wouldn't be seeing Flowey. It's really that simple. I didn't think I'd have to go over something THIS simple in this entire thread. It's about as simple as "I think, therefore I am". We see Flowey, therefore we are there.

"In fact, his words imply the contrary. He wouldn't be speaking about us in third person if we were there. And the assumption that he was speaking to Chara inside Frisk's head doesn't pass."

Chara is connected to our essence. There's PLENTY of evidence of Chara being connected to Frisk in some way. Besides, WE were the ones who came to reset, and Flowey assumes Chara's about to do it? Why? Because he mistook Frisk's actions for Chara's, in this Charisk body (Frisk is the one in control.)

"Certainly not if we can simply say he was trying to speak to their grave instead, with no Frisk around."

Why would he first say Chara's been gone for a long time, then think Chara rose from the grave as some sort of zombie? AND that Chara has the ability to RESET, when Frisk is the ONLY one that showed that ability at the time? He felt Chara in Asriel's battle:There's NO way he'd link that feeling to so far away, all the way in the Ruins. If he came to the conclusion that Chara was back after he said Chara was gone, it MUST have been because he actually sensed Chara. With us. So yes, the final conversation with Flowey happens underground.

"Who are we then? Ourselves? Aren't we ourselves even when playing the game? Dude, take a break xD"

Out-canon, ourselves. In-canon, nothing, because canon doesn't exist outside of the game's world. Canon is paused when the game is closed-Directly after Frisk decided to "quit", to the LOAD/RESET screen.

"It's not actually a door, just an arc. But to answer, maybe they didn't build it. Maybe someone else did. You know what's suspicious? That they've had everything they needed to survive and rebuild their civilization in that cave."

..Ever heard of cavemen?

Seriously, there were holes for beams of sunlight for agriculture, monsters have magic, and metals exist underground-That's how we got to the Iron Age. And if the way happened way back, more than 1000 years ago, then monsters really weren't set back all that much.

"Either a mistake from Toby, or the cave continues there."

I argue the latter is the case. I was trying to debunk Mago's claim that the Surface was right there. Once again, read the context so you know what I mean.

"And Chara saying that the twilight is shining through the barrier was probably just metaphorical. Twilight = half dark. I can see the barrier radiating like crazy. There's no way any twilight was shining through that."

Let's see, the Barrier doesn't let ANYTHING out, so it reflects 100% of the light, while also letting 100% of the light shine through to the Underground. This gives the appearance of a radiating, white light.

"It's clear, but not logical. Ergo, it's a plot hole, ergo, they didn't cross it, ergo, that room was not located past the barrier, but rather wherever Omega Flowey teleported us to."

Exactly my take as well.

"Naturally. DT is the action, and a trait is the style of the action."

It seems like all six culminate in DT there, somehow though. This "hint" is further evidence that red is DT, though it only counts when we take the flag that CLEARLY states that the 6 traits combined make the red trait into account. But still, that's a hint.

"But that's not perseverance. That's analysis. Perseverance is not giving up. So how can it be taking notes and not giving up, when it can't be either, apparently?"

How about trial-and-error? You take notes of what you did before, of the possibilities, and at the same time, fight on to the end, going through every possibility?

"A third definition would come from how we played with the ball. If we struggle with it, we get this flag. So now it's three contradictory definitions. Perseverance, analysis and struggle."

Struggle ALSO fits trial-and-error in a way. It looks like we have a winner.

"Which doesn't match the definition of the word "integrity" at all once again. In fact, the exact definition, combined with originality, implies a stubborn sense of morality, something Sans implied Toriel to have, which she does."

Your own style.. Not letting anyone else change it. You're quite stubborn about it, really. But, that still works as a way to solve the problem at times, and thus, it works.

"Dexterity, justice, order. That's how I understand this one. Dexterity, truth-seeking, aesthetic order. Precise analysis and insight."

Yep, about right. And this is why I group analysis with yellow now-It best fits order and accuracy, not really trial-and-error/process of elimination

"Technically, the other two naturally imply order, so this one isn't even needed to begin with - lawful order and analytical order. But sure, if you don't want to ignore this word, then that's your thing. But I don't think this is some key information."

Well, the word does only seem to support the conclusion that you already reached, so.. perhaps it was only extra evidence, that wasn't really needed.

"There's no reason for Toby to be puzzling and cryptic in this case. As I said, figure of speech."

..I've lost count of the number of times you've tried to use Toby as an argument.

"For real, the goal is not to kill the ball by putting it in the hole. The goal is to win a game of minigolf."

The game is an obstacle, and that's also called "BALL".

"And the ball can symbolize anything, it iself is not even an obstacle!"

In all the messages, there was an obstacle, and in every case that BALL existed in the messages, it was the obstacle. You dethroned Ball. You ended the mayhem of Ball. You achieved the end of Ball. The common theme is that there is an obstacle, and you have a strategy to overcome it.

"Since when did the difficulty of minigolf come from the ball itself? Never. It's your own dexterity, the shape of the map and the size of the hole that are problematic."

AKA:The game itself.

"All of this is a you-problem. I've solved the conundrum already. Have you?"

Both of us ditched the dictionary definition. Yes, BOTH of us. Being "kind" to yourself is just being selfish. So you don't follow dictionary definition either.

"Which, once again, is not the definition of kindness, just like analysis is not the definition of perseverance and just like originality is not the definition of integrity."

And like analysis isn't the definition of patience, that power isn't the definition of determination..

"You are obviously wrong on every single level imaginable, and that's not even mentioning the monster attacks, which are using strings and gravity and whatnot."

How many times do I have to say that the modes aren't replicas of the traits that mind-control you?

"RED = additive and exclusive sum, the root, stability, survival/fear // reduction of magic"

About right, minus the Glitchtale fear.

"ORANGE = bravery and incentive to move, ergo energy // connection to the energy of physical matter"

Energy? If you mean the thing that keeps you from cowering in fear, then yes, I suppose?

"YELLOW = accuracy, purpose, goal, order, truth-seeking, justice // essence"

That's about right. Except don't get the game's justice confused with the most common interpretation of it. Yellow doesn't make you a Paladin. (Also, it's about being accurate about performing your goal, your GOAL isn't a trait at all. It's always to get past the problem. Except maybe green. And that's a big "maybe".)

"GREEN = care, concern, kindness, healing // causality"

So, are modes replicas of traits or not? Healing ourselves isn't liked to green mode.

"CYAN = patience, ergo logic, analysis, knowledge-seeking // spacetime"

You could say there's SOME logic out there.. Not rushing right in when the time isn't right. Really though, this is more about time than space. It's knowing when the time is right, and waiting for that.

"BLUE = integrity, morality, originality, ergo unchanging wisdom/opinion // soul"

Originality, yes. And stubborn all the same. Isn't that pretty much what being yourself IS?

"PURPLE = perseverance, prolongation, "strings attached", sponaneous creation of power (KR) // pure power"

KR has nothing to do with the purple trait. Just like HP doesn't have to do with the yellow trait, or a lack of it having to do with the red trait.

"They are getting more restrictive the further down you go. And this is my mantra. This is what fits all the ball play styles, all their descriptions, all soul modes, and all have a psychological, as well as a default magical explanation (denoted by "//"). Though, that's just my head canon, the ones denoted with //. Still, the rest fits the game perfectly."

There REALLY isn't a connection between many of these and the modes. Once again, perservearance (trait) has nothing to do with bouncing between strings.