Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27136653-20180228205701/@comment-27136653-20180410195520

"So they all walk on their eyes.. Because they ARE the eyes. The similarities to Star Wars is a coincidence, at least in-universe."

Yes, it is a coincidence, which is the point of the joke here. But Loox doesn't walk on its eyes. It has arms and feet and whatnot. Also, Chara mentioned his family name, which was "Eyewalker". They don't mention the family name of any other monster we encounter, supporting the idea that this was just a joke they've made.

"The hotel is doing its best to accommodate everyone TRAPPED because of the elevator not working."

Why THANK you, finally you've presented some solid evidence for your point. But then again, we see that Waterfall is leveled with New Home. Maybe there were routes in the past that are no longer there, or, there are some, but they're difficult to access. Which is why many monsters prefer waiting in the lobby. I don't think this fact is significant enough to prove anything about the direction the monsters took when they first came to the underground. Especially not if we have only a vague idea about the actual shape of the terrain.

"until I eventually find out the true lore of the game"

I've been doing that for nearly two years now, alas, to no avail. Toby didn't give us nearly enough info to figure everything out with an absolute confidence.

"Life didn't necessarily emerge at the lowest possible altitude when they first walked on land. The humans who crossed the landbridge between Asia and North America didn't necessarily land on the lowest possible altitude."

I have no idea what you're trying to do here. The picture features a mountain, ergo, the humans started below it. Whenever we're talking about a mountain, the humans ALWAYS start at the bottom. As for cliffs, perhaps you mean a ravine, or a canyon. Then, yes, they would start at the top.

"Yeah, that includes the signals of the internet."

Frisk didn't pick up the phonecall. And I don't think they could intercept internet messages anyways. There's too much info floating about, most sites are protected, and the signal itself never travels through the ground. It goes through underwater cables across oceans. Unless we're talking about mobile phone data networks. Which is so oddly specific anyways that I'm not putting much faith into such possibility.

"So, why couldn't the monsters have used the same reasoning?"

The two races developed separatedly. Arriving at the same result after a thousand years I find very... improbable. Besides, where do you think the monsters were using this phrase the most? In real life? This phrase doesn't really work when someone speaks to you directly instead of showing you a baity passage of text. Either Asriel/Flowey had to spend a lot of time on the undernet, or...

"Why didn't they?"

You're asking me why didn't the humans add a stopping system? I dunno, probably because it was easier this way. My point is in the design of the elevator. How it clearly rides horizontally there at one point:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Paternoster_animated.gif

Of course, there are other ways to transport something across a horizontal lane other than by moving it on a giant wheel, that's practical only for short distances, e.g. two vertical elevator shafts.

"why weren't there non-horizontal elevators that worked the same way?"

Because you can use your feet most of the time. And if not, then make a bridge, or a cable car or something. Horizontal elevators simply aren't very practical.

"This now proves that monsters really do have future technology!!"

If by new technology you also mean a powerplant that can rearrange its own interior, then yes, I can't but agree on that. They are ahead of our own time. But what's to say the humans in Undertale aren't too? This is 2018. Undertale could be in 21XX for both races.

"It says wood and metal."

I've found metal-only scaffolds on google images. I don't know what your source is, but it's wrong.

"True. But first, they would need to develop all the technology that's required to make the plant in the first place."

Which is why I think that this didn't happen within 250 years. Especially not if they went into hiding at first according to you.

"It's a void. No ground."

Because fuck logic, amirite? It's a cave, not a lonely island floating in outer space.

"But, they were required to understand history."

Out of the last three, only part 7 speaks about history, and only slightly. Plus, it's not like we see dates in the book or anything. I've never seen a history book that would be structured in such a way like this one. This cannot possibly be the mantra they're being taught from. As I said, the books are very subjective, ergo unsuitable as a teaching material. As I said, it looks more like someone's personal notes.

"Or, you explain everything the learner needs to know to understand history, but not random things that don't help achieve that goal whatsoever, like I argue above."

You could easily argue that the books that talk about monster essences and funerals have nothing to do with history. But for the same reason you could argue that part 6 has nothing to do with history either. The two talk about a very similar topic and yet, one is included and one isn't.

"Not every educational book is meant for school."

Well there you have it.

"The only "subjective" thing in the series is that Asgore is bad at names. Which is practically a fact anyway."

It's not just that, it's also the manner in which a normal information is conveyed. For example, "in a way, this confusing situation was all too familiar."

"You're just wildly speculating about Toby, just like ancient alchemers."


 * Alchemists. And no, I'm not. I'm taking all the knowledge and facts I can find. I don't care if you think that that's "cheating", it's not. Police investigators also check everything, they don't stick to just one type of examination.

The fact is, that Toby wrote each of these passages and labeled them "monster history". The fact IS, that he didn't write an actual book for each one. The assumption is, that he didn't write anything unimportant to the plot in these, and the assumption is, that the volumes missing from the game and the game's files previously existed, but he scrapped them. Is this too hard to understand? You're sometimes basing your own theories on a plenty of consecutive assumptions too.

"Alchemy was not a good time."

Alchemy was mostly about trial and error. Yes, they've had their preconceptions, but with alchemy, they were trying to experiment and discover new things. As I said, that's how gunpowder was discovered. The only difference between alchemy and chemistry is, that chemistry doesn't use ridiculous methods, therefore, it can discover and make sense of things much faster.

"Besides, who said Toby wrote those volumes at all, and didn't just skip to Volume 4 to represent the fact that a lot of history went by between the two?"

You're assuming that he did it "just because". I'm assuming that he did it, because he already had it, but then scrapped it, becauase he found a better way to tell the story.

"We shouldn't look it from a point of view we don't have knolwedge of."

Technically, we also know noting about the monsters. They don't exist in our world. Who knows how their minds really function and reason.

"After all, Toby was inspired by Earthbound to make this."

Alright. Since you know about Earthbound (unlike me), what do YOU think Toby was thinking when he was writing these? And make sure to include Earthbound in your explanation.

"Toby very well could have written at least a draft of the rest of the volume, so that he can create the context for what we DO see."

He definitely had his notes somewhere, so that he didn't forget. I have mine too. Then, he started including them in the game as these books. But then, he scrapped some of them in favor of a better storytelling method. That's what I think. There was no "rest of the volume". These were just the individual points he took from the "master summary" - as you could call it. He definitely did not start by making 8 "monster history books" and then included only some information from them in the game. That's just silly.

"Maybe he didn't write about Chara, period."

That's a big maybe. Assuming he wrote about the smallest of things, but not about this. Especially if these are literally called "monster history".

"Their story was exlained in New Home, after all."

Parts 6 through 8 were also explained somewhere in the game other than through the volumes themselves.

"and nothing says Toby couldn't have wrote what we couldn't see"

Logic does. Notice that parts 6 through 8 are continuous. He could have just written this off as simply three different pages in the same book. But he didn't. This shows that each part is not its own book, but just a smaller sub-part of a larger narrative. I'm not saying all of them are continuous. They most likely aren't either, due to the large time span they cover. But this already puts a shade on the idea that each one of these is a stand-alone piece of information, independent of the others. I mean, why would he split a continous narrative that talks about the same thing into multiple books? Unless, these weren't really books to him, but rather just repositories for the master narrative. That kinda debunks the whole idea that there could have been hundreds of words written per each part before it got trimmed.

"I see a similar gap, between 1 and the war mentioned in the plaques."

That's what the intro is for. As for the cause, volume 7 talks about that, while addressing a different topic.

"Chara's story is Volumes 6-8."

There is no Chara in volumes 6 to 8. I checked. I don't see it.

''"You're adding new conspiracies and discounting evidence just to keep your theory possible. That's not scientific." "We need to use the plot itself, real evidence, not just discounting them as plot holes"''

How can plot holes be real if the Undertale universe is real? Oh wait, it isn't? You're saying it was made by some 26 year old guy living in Massachusetts? ...oh. So... Undertale is not like the real world then? Does... does that mean the scientific method does not apply to it? WHAAAAA???

You are taking the said evidence too literally, without any regard for the humanity of the creator. This is not a consistent universe, this is a game about mercy. The plot was never the focus, really. The experience was.

"Like...?"

Idk, the Vedas, for starters? Or think about European literature. How many books detailing the known history were written in Germany, France, England, and other places?

"You could show the double-slit experiment"

That's the point, I don't have the equipment. Just like I don't have the knowledge to list every single written compilation that humanity has ever made to you.

"Like how light waves follow the rules of the earth being round."

You could change the rules and argue that what we actually see is just an illusion, as the Earth is OBVIOUSLY flat, meaning that what we've observed must actually have an alternative explanation. Obviously. /s

"Those were the only two I know of, and they're the only two that are widely known."

That's the same as saying "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist."

"That's the only way for the reader to not be utterly confused when they read the chapter."

You usually include an asterisk for every passage that might be difficult to understand, and put the explanation elsewhere.

"It WAS picked to explain the basics."

There are still holes. For example, where's the passage that teaches you how to read? This book was written by monsters, for monsters. Not for humans. There is no need for it to start from the absolute basics.

But even if, that goes to show that this isn't a teaching book. After all, it's labeled "monster history", not "everything about monsters", so due to its contents, it won't be used in schools. Which is why you can find it in the library.

Alas, if you don't think that this book is standardized, then there's no problem. I just don't see the point of them explaining literally everything. I am not convinced that a book labeled "monster history" could possibly talk about literally everything. It's more probable that the said passages that aren't about history are just footnotes. As I said many times already.

"There's also NO proof whatsoever that it wasn't him."

I guess he also wrote the plaques according to you, right? And Gaster did all the technology. And Asgore did literally every little governing thing, not leaving anything to any other monster, not even the naming of small villages. And Toriel was everybody's teacher. That's simple according to you? That's madness. Assuming that each thing was done by more than one person is the simpler explanation, as it never works the way I said it in the real life.

"It wasn't necessarily all at once."

You implied that it was.

"Also, not all of ot came from him."

Dude. Choose. Either he did write it all. Or he didn't.

"This doesn't have to be his primary passion."

Snowdin has writers in the library. I bet they're being paid for their job. He could be doing something similar there (something that's not just quizzes and the simplistic stuff of course). But he chose not to.

"Gerson's lifespan is a normal lifespan."

Nothing implies so. Just because one mortal monster remembers the war doesn't mean they all can live for so long too. I mean, all of them ARE different species, and Gerson, the one who isn't immortal, is strangely a turtle monster species. As I said, there's not enough conclusive proof for what you're claiming. So... what was the argument again?

"We should just use it as evidence that monsters CAN indeed live long enough to remember the wat, since that's exactly what Gerson did."

We really only have proof for Gerson. So I would not so quickly assume that they can all live for thousands of years.

"Also nothing to show that he didn't."

Does it make sense to you? It does to me. So I don't think he pulled a mindblow here.

"Nothing to say that Gerson is special either."

As I said, he's a turtle monster. Usually, when Toby pulls one of these, it's pretty obvious, since often, players go like "whoa 4th wall broken!", or something. I see no proof that he did it here. So, now that we are sure that turtles = old, and not the other way around, we ask, does it make sense here? I think it does. Gerson is the only mortal monster that's proven to be over a thousand years old.

Although, to show you that I am not stubborn and I am willing to change my beliefs, he did say that being smart is the ONLY reason. Assuming that by saying this he meant to include the physiological factors too, then the species probably isn't important and you're most likely partially right. But again, I would not claim that they can all live for thousands of years. Asgore is that old. He is a boss monster. He doesn't age. If this is important for the plot, for example, that it has been a century since Asriel died, then it's not meaningless, and a hundred years is most likely a lot even for a monster. Ergo, I would not be so quick to assume that every single monster can get as old as Asgore currently is. And then we spiral back to the confirmed species. That is Gerson, and no one else. But yes, most monsters can probably live to be a few hundred years old, maybe up to 5 times longer than us right now, if I had to state an upper bound.

"You say we can't say the red SOUL is special, despite the fact that our SOUL shatters unlike the other six"

I argued that the other souls have shattered in the previous timelines. This was the one where they gave up. If Frisk were to give up, their soul would persist too, as human souls are supposed to. But Gerson's age IS something special, as far as I'm aware.

"Monster History was meant to explain what you need to know to understand history."

To us, or to the monsters? Because that's an important distinction.

"And assuming that the humans just randomly chose a mountain without scouting for escape routes"

We don't know if that's what happened to begin with. And even if it did, the other hole did not have to be there at first, but, as I said, could have formed later on.

"Therefore, if we combine the two together, there was just one long battle in a rather short war."

'In the end, it could hardly be called a war.'

- Implying the monsters couldn't really even fight back. That's how short the war was. Which is why I chose to ignore the intro, since it's obivously lying when it says the battle was long; as IF it was all heroic and whatnot (while in truth, it was a dusty massacre).

"They used induction."

So you're in essence assuming a logical fallacy in order to make the story work, because you cannot make it work with all the evidence factored in? Nice going there. Did you know the Earth is flat?

"Asgore not having hope debunks this."

He immediately regains it after we spare him. No one said they cannot experience the negatives of these emotions.

"We can't exactly see a light-show when all we have is a sepia intro where the barrier is less than 30 pixels wide."

Such fall would have killed any human that falls down. I think the opening is much closer to the surface than how it is portrayed. But you are most likely right. The light could be coming from the barrier there too.

"No, seeing the barrier start as a visible sphere, then dissapear into the walls."

Something like that, yes.

"They would literally have to fall down a hole to get to the Trash Dump."

There are other ways. Remember the disproportionally small gap? Or the other routes mentioned in the game but not seen? (such as the one that Monster Kid took)

"So, if other paths exist, they more than likely didn't enter the garbage hole at all during the expedition."

They didn't, but there are also no plaques there. The last one lies in the corridor filled with the yellow blinking lights, and that's where we saw Monster Kid, after he took his own route.

''"They did. But they were blocked by Snowdin." "Pretty sure during the Middle Ages, we couldn't live in a place as old as Antartica."''

They walked through it. Who said anything about living?

"Also, as I said, Home doesn't span the entire area of it. It doesn't truly begin until you get past all the puzzles."

Fyi, Home is bigger than a single room. It's an entire city.

http://i.imgur.com/Q8YyIiY.png

As you can see in this image, even though the ruins are big, they're only about twelve times larger than Toriel's home. So they're not as big. And I'm sure that Home is bigger than this. So overall, the distance from the hole to Home would be smaller than the size of Home itself.

"Visible from the Surface."

You're assuming that.

"New Home, with an entrance even bigger than the Ruins hole."

Bro, the New Home entrance is a door. The ruins entrance is a massive hole.

"But do they have the technology and room to survive there permanently?"

Do they have the technology to survive in a land of purple rocks?

"No, they STATED that there was no entrances. And that can't mean holes, because of New Home."

'Entrances or exits.' Even if it said entrances only, aren't all holes entrances, really? Oh wait, they didn't know they are. So why did they say "entrances", if every entrance from their point of view would ultimately also have to be an exit? That's right, because they used the two as synonyms. So they were sure there were no open holes anywhere. Meaning, that up to that point, they assumed that every sealed hole that there is is impassable from both directions. This plaque was written before Chara fell, and before the first trash started flowing in. Also, HOW does that not mean holes? What does New Home have to do with this? The hole there is a door. A door is both an entrance, and an exit.

"We do, however, see a white light, the same color as what we see in New Home."

Hard to tell the exact hue when it's all a single shade of color. Plus, it could just be the daylight. Although, as I said, you have a point. It shines too brightly even for an opened cave.

"Or, maybe they were there all along, and the monsters thought they worked just like the first one."

Still, keep in mind that even if they thought that the humans can't pass through it directly, they would still fear them striking back. That's what I got from volume 4, "fearing humans no longer". So, as I said, they feared the humans would lift the barrier and finish them off. It is a bold argument, but I only came up with it as an explanation for their fear. And fear can lead you to some pretty irrational conclusions. This is unlike your argument about the plaques, where you said that they came to these conclusions using an idiotic induction. Like, who documents things by "guessing" and not even stating that it's just a guess?

"So it's totally necessary to stop the 0 humans who knew about that hole and decided to attack the monsters through it...?"

They feared the humans, period. If the humans didn't know about this hole, it is reasonable to think that they made the puzzles after the trash started flowing in. But despite these inconsitencies, I still don't think they were sealed from that end. After all, they would have settled in New Home if that was the case. They would find a safe and easy place to climb the cliff and eventually reach the destination (then they would probably demolish the route). Or stay in Waterfall, if the former wasn't feasible. But none of that happened. Plus, they walked far into the earth. As I said, walking a 12 house distance and then founding your city isn't "far".

"And, if so, why did they have to move to the Ruins in the first place? Why not make a door like that at the end of New Home instead?"

That's the question.

"Well, he probably is too bad at names to come up with a name as creative as Chara"

...? Chara would tell him their name, obviously.

"That's one human out of many."

One good human falling down is still better than no humans falling at all.

"The door TO the hole is just a single door-sized frame. Not the hole itself. It's like the Snowdin/Ruins border."

Interesting observation. I've never realized that the door that we stand in front of when we fight Toriel is not the same one as the one that we end up next to in the next area. But again, there's no vertical hole near New Home. I mean, how do you think everyone got out so easily to watch the sunrise?

"Simple-It was created after the Barrier was destroyed, but before Frisk wakes up."

What would be the point though? To wake Frisk up with loud noises? It is also there after our fight with Omega Flowey, but that's definitely a plot hole. In any case, I do not think that Asgore would call some construction workers, send them there and tell them to make a fancy door, with pillars and an engraved emblem and everything, for no reason whatsoever. Besides, this was no time for building. The barrier just broke, the human is unconscious, why would the king out of all things order to build a door frame there?

"as everyone would already know Asriel was still alive"

We only told Asriel our name, and whether we forgive him or not. We didn't tell him about himself, so no one knew that it was him who did this.

"While I don't believe they were there for that long"

You should though. Think about it. Sans implies it was a century between us and Chara. He didn't say "at least a hundred years". He said precisely "a hundred". Remember how good his estimates are. He gets the amount of times we've lost to him correctly every single time (and no, it's not because he knows; he doesn't remember the timelines). So the chance of him underestimating nearly two millenia by over 1650 years (2000-250-100) is, from a meta point of view, non-existant, I'd say.

And this is a clue only if you believe that this wasn't a hyperbole. If it was, we would have no way of estimating when Chara fell down at all. But assuming that it isn't just a hyperbole, we get the precise number of 100 years that Sans mentioned. Because his estimates are just that good in the canon.

But even if you believe that this was a hyperbole, you still cannot put probability above logic. Assuming your theory, it would imply that the monsters reached the information age within 250 years, which is also assuming that their technology was the same as the technology of the humans at the beginning. Now factor in the fact that they've just lost their homes and have to rebuild their society, while fearing eradication, and you'll soon see that it is impossible for them to advance so much in so little time. Plus, they've received the tech from the trash according to Undyne, and, contrary to your belief, Undyne is not insane, because the phrase "anime is real" implies nothing BUT that she thinks the things showcased in it are real, and not that the video itself is real or something.

If I see some amazing video and I ask myself, "is this real?", do I mean the video, or the contents of the said video? I'm pretty sure the latter is the case. And so is the case with Undyne. She does not mean that anime itself is real, because she's not insane. Such assumption CLEARLY goes against all common sense. If you can sufficiently prove that she is insane without using circular logic, then I shall believe that she was being literal here. But we both already know that that's impossible. Though only I know why. (It's because you're a hopeless moron who's lost all touch with reality by this point.)

"And the odds of it bring flat?"

What are the odds of them getting cleaned up though? :)

"light can't leave"

How do you know? It's magic, anything is possible. Perhaps it only disallows massive particles to leave. You know, the subluminal ones. I've been looking into it for a long time, and there's so many weird things about magic. Spells that don't harm you. Spells that do. Spells that interact with physical matter, spells that don't. What about a transparent impassable wall? That surely is not impossible. And actually, what's this? https://i.imgur.com/XeTMnZ9.png

A magical glass tile that Toby added in when a character runs off the path? Could we count this as being canon? Yeah, sure we could. So transparent impassable magic can exist. Why can't the hole in the ruins be made out of this stuff? Although, as I said, due to the lighting, I think this is isn't the case.

"Therefore, light coming through can only prove that other waves, and very tiny particles like electrons and quarks can go through."

It's still magic. Magic is based on rules, as far as we know. And what is the rule here? Is it "light can pass from this side", or "anything can pass from this side"? The monsters didn't know that, and you can't really explain magic using our science, since magic is not physical.

"And yet, we don't see this leaf in the actual game."

Leaves rot, you know.

"Fearful or no, if you're going to stop humans, then actually stop them."

What if the reason they made these was because they feared the humans, but still believed in them, or were still good at heart? I mean, block it off completely and anyone who falls will starve to death.

"I only see false predictions."

"The angel is coming."

"But, the Mages only would have died if DT was SOUL power."

It is tho.

"Though they'd essentially be powerless, until their "SOUL magic" replenishes."

That's what Glitchtale did. Don't do Glitchtale, it's bad for you.

"I meant she thought the events in the anime were recorded"

That's equally as ridiculous.

"She just thinks those pixels are the output of cameras recording real people."

Alphys has the said anime on DVDs or whatever. It's not like a non-stop live feed. Besides, how would you explain music and special instrumentation sound effects this way?

"And you say that doesn't work, because Undyne HAS to be another sane person on the planet"

No, I'm just saying she's not been hit with a baseball bat to the head at the age of five, unlike you.

"Her helping you in the fight when she wants to kill you"

She wanted to challenge herself, to show you how strong she can be. Not to "help" you. She said this herself. Did you even play the damn game yet?

"make the human win?"

We ran away to a place where she couldn't follow us. That's what made us win. And you can say that we've only gotten a chance to escape, since this green soul magic that's preventing us from escaping is hard to sustain for long periods of time.

"His brilliance truly was irreplacable."

You could say that about anyone, provided you admire them enough to be so delusional as to claim that they are a one of a kind. I bet my ass those followers were actual stalkers-admirers, before the incident happened. Which is how they've received their names by the game.

Actually, I quite like that. This is my headcanon from now on.

"Undyne's crazy enough to actually use this fallacy."

And that is your fallacy. But you are too self-absorbed to see this.

"And judging by her behavior in her fight, and how she "cooks" by smashing the food."

She was angry with us. Maybe she is eager into things she likes, but then again, it's not like the piano was smashed to pieces when we entered. Yeah, she was definitely doing this because she despised us from the heart, because we put her at shame.

"Enough to say the events were real."

Oh. So now, Alphys is delusional too according to you? Give me a break.

"Historically, humans weilded swords up to 10x their own size. Right?"

Well, DUH. She did say that anime is real after all, as in, the events that it portrays are real (but not the portrayal itself).

"The fact that Chara and Asriel could understand each other proves humans and monsters spoke the same language at the time."

Which is what I said. That language is set, since otherwise, "apple" could mean "orange", or whatever.

"There's a fine line between being eager about something and thinking it's real."

Well, how exactly was she supposed to tell whether the anime is based on real events or not? It's not like she could walk out and actually check for herself.

"It's not just untraditional, it's flat-out illogical!"

Not to them. The monsters have their reasons, because they have their own culture, their own way of living and taking care of themselves. They're totally different. If you find that illogical, then find a different fandom. This one clearly doesn't suit you. And Undyne didn't sign the letter, because she expected her to know that it was from her and not from the human child that just arrived and met Alphys for like 10 minutes in person. But it was also Frisk's fault, they didn't say anything. But yes, you could say that she forgot that. But again, it's not because she's insane. Remember that she rewrote the letter many times. She probably totally forgot about the technical essentialls, such as a signature. And with the cooking, as I said, forced emotions. Though I don't doubt that she acts "hostile" towards food regularly. Though probably not so intensely, as to stain the entire kitchen.

"Also, Undyne's the only insane one on this list."

I think Toriel comes very close.

"No sane person would give the enemy to everyone's hopes and dreams a chance to live."

What about Asgore? The one who literally held back? As proven by a mountain of evidence that you simply chose to ignore?