Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-31536324-20180911181656

"And here we get back to my original claim, that they must be mind controlled or something. Yes, our universe could be a simulation too, but at least it's not obvious. In Undertale, the evidence is basically screaming into our faces.

"It's a videogame in real life, so it must be a video game in-universe." -Tsskyx.

"Duels in Harry Potter do not employ turns. Nor buttons. They are still more akin to your "human on human" duels, except with magic instead of firearms."

I said like.

"What is fair and what isn't? How does the universe know? More proof that it's sentient and that all the monsters and humans are living in a virtual reality perhaps?"

There are viruses intelligent enough to be able to trick our cells to doing their dirty work. Proof they WE'RE in a virtual reality?

"Hey, I have a better idea, how about we stop repeating ourselves? I have already explained myself on this matter."

Still double standard.

"Except, you know, actually BEING there..."

I refer you to below.

"The visuals. Now you go fetch me a statement confirming that the red trait is DT."

I meant as in a character mentioning them or explaining them, not the "mind blowing" fact that one of the most common tropes in gaming is in a video game. There is at least evidence to Red = DT, there's nothing for these barriers other than them being in games.

"But it would fit. Just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it cannot be true. Toby may have the freedom to do anything he wants with his new rules, but one thing he cannot neglect is logic, since logic is what we use to analyze everything. Now you come and say, "hey, logic doesn't actually apply here, because Toby didn't say anything". So wtf am I supposed to do, just blindly start believing that despite all the evidence, even if not meant as an evidence for anything by Toby, the world is NOT simulated for some reason?"

I have never said that at all. And THERE is the problem, your evidence isn't actually evidence, it's assumption. Not only that, it's assumption unsupported by the game itself. As I've kept saying, if that were the case, then there would be hints, clues, and implications of it. But there isn't!

It would make for a GREAT au, but as far as being canon goes, it lost the race before it could get out the gate.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great idea, I'd love to read a fic on it. But that's the problem with the idea, it's a fan creation. If you tried to tell me that the world of Undertale is a simulation like the Matrix, and that that's canon, with your only evidence being that in real life it's a video game. Then no, I'm going to have to disagree.

"Bruh, if we stuck to just the things that we know Toby had in mind, UT would be nothing more than its source code. Have a question? Analyze the code, the answer is there."

Weren't YOU the one constantly preaching this earlier?

"Who is Gaster? Just some guy Toby decided to scrap. And all because Toby proclaimed that everything we see on the screen is actually happening in that world, even providing proof of this by letting certain characters, such as Sans, mention these mechanics."

He said that the mechanics are canon to the world, not that literally everything (like the black and white world and invisible barriers that AREN'T the Barrier) on screen is canon.

"Does that mean the history never happened and was just a slideshow inside Chara's memories? No, of course not, that's an insane claim! But... it demonstrates the point. What can we imply, and what cannot we imply? Imply everything, or nothing, or cherrypick?"

The information IN the intro is canon, but the intro itself is not. The war happened, Chara DID fall, but as far as the opening itself happening in the world? That didn't happen.

"What I've been doing so far is showing how everything would function if nothing was ever implied. You don't like that. My original point was that everything was implied. You didn't like that either. You start cherry-picking; I don't like that... Why? Because it goes against the rules of logic, assuming the "inside universe" has any at all."

1. If it has evidemce to back it up, then I'm fine with it. But the only evidence you've shown so far HERE in this thread is those two plaques, which THA and I have disproved multiple times over now.

2. If it's implied then that means that there's an explanation to it that fits canon and what's shown to us. That's the explanation I want, not new concepts that aren't hinted at, implied, or stated to be a thing in the world. The only way that would work is if Toby said that it was a thing.

3. If it didn't run on logic, then it wouldn't be presented in a way perceivable to us.

"You are stating "only mentions" are the only thing that can affirm our suppositions. A simple rule, which would also put the shop menu and the invisible barriers into the "canon" category however. And since Toby said that this is the case in the kickstarter, that what we see is real, you may as well start believing it. Or deny it, your choice."

1. Where in the game are these barriers mentioned? Show me that and i will buy it.

2. The point with the shop menues was just an example of the interpretations I was talking about.

"I just wish you would not cherrypick. After all, isn't the shop menu similar to the ACT choice in battles? Why should they be categorized differently? They are even using the same highlighting syntax for new prompts, like the one for mercy, with the yellow names thing."

I refer you to point three up above.

"The key here is consistency."

Yes, and you've contradicted yourself at least once.

">Except that I already disproved that when I pointed out that Omega Flowey didn't need to do that, due to him - by your logic - having a composite SOUL."

There is no flaw in my reasoning concerning this. If you have explained it already as you're claiming, then I have either ignored it, because your proof was bs, or commented on it, and you decided to reject my comment for the exact same reason. Either way, I know what I was talking about. If you think you do too, please, restate your anti-thesis."

It's exactly as I stated, minus the spelling errors that I fixed here. It's still a flaw in the theory.

"If you know of a theory for Omega Flowey / Asriel with less asterists than mine, please, I'm all ears."

I'm more along the line of saying Flowey had multiple SOULS in one being, rather than one made up of many; since that's clearly the case with both Omega Flowey and Asriel (you need the POWER of seven Human SOULS, not necessarily seven SOULS).

I'm not against the idea of a composite SOUL, in fanon at least, but I am against slapping the "you need to kill the previous user" rule to it. Considering that OF didn't need to do that, and Flowey clearly says that the transfer of power from him to Frisk was because of Frisk having more DT than Flowey, it just doesn'tmake any sense with the rules already established.

Asriel still can't use it because while he trumps Frisk in terms of SOUL Power, he doesn't in terms of DT. Frisk still beats him in that category, they were simply more determined than he was.

"I said exactly that. He can't create the HUD. It's above him. But timelines? Who knows what's possible when you start twiddling with magic and determination. We know next to nothing about their essence, like, what magic is, in context of other forces of the nature. Or maybe, it's not natural at all. What's more, we may have an indirect evidence. After all, it was one of his OWN experiments that shattered him across time and space. How much you wanna bet those save points are a side effect of these experiments of his?"

I'd say they'd be more side effects of his being scattered - and being pieces of Gaster himself - rather then his experiments, following this line of thought at least. Also it was him falling into his creation that caused his scattering. And even then, the only thing made out of that would be S/L/R since it deals directly with Space-Time; whereas everything else deals with magic and the SOUL. Plus, magic was around BEFORE the Monsters were put into the Underground - and thus Gaster's scattering - so the only real viable question here is what magic is in context to everything else in nature. Since it's clearly a natural force.

"And they know precisely that. Where's the catch again?"

There's no exact number given for the monsters.

"Why not utilize all that extra DT for something better in the meantime? Also, does that mean there's a treshold for the amount of "extra" DT that would make the soul red if reached? Some sort of a "mini" capacity reader?"

We're not in control of our heartbeats or blood flow are we? (Rhetorical)

I just go with either the 1st red flag explanation, or the usual "SOUL Trait = Most abundant/dominant trait" explanation. If there's multiple ways to get the red flag, then that likely means the same for DT as a trait.

But to answer, if there is then it's likely the threshold you'd reach by having a balance of the other six traits.

"If that tiny amount of DT can do all of this, then humans must be literal gods, considering most of their DT is locked away as you're saying. Still, that "lockage" is an arbitrary rule. What if they're not actually locked? Wouldn't that make the other humans equally as powerful? Can you justify this hypothesis without employing an arbitrary rule? Because I have something way simpler: they all have the same powers. What Frisk did, all of them would be able to do too, assuming the same circumstance and mental health."

The problem with this paragraph is that it doesn't take into account the one rule of S/L/R: that one needs to be the MOST DETERMINED BEING in order to use it. Logically speaking, even if S/L/R was available to the Surface and you had a room full of people with red SOULS, only one would get the ability, simply because they're more determined than the rest of the Red SOUL Humans.

Now, if you put a RSH in a room with one human with each of the other traits, THEN that RSH would automatically get it because they're more determined than the others naturally. If they weren't there then it'd likely go to Perseverance, and if THEY weren't there then it'd likely go to (insert rest of order here.)

As for the others, they're natural abilities of a RSH, but need a threshold to be reached in order to be obtained (as shown in the game).

"Because it's used as a metric, so it logically cannot. Besides, they have so much of it, they can practically already do everything. There's no need for it to fluctuate, but even if, we wouldn't be able to tell."

Except evidence clearly shows that it can. And there's no need for us to be ill or burn like plants, but we do. Weaknesses are there to make sure that no one thing is so stupidly powerful in the natural world. Plants that can survive in the cold are still susceptible to fire after all, and if there's no fluctuation or weakness in DT then that means that all of humanity in Undertale is a species of Mary Sue's.

Humans, while not susceptible to the SAME weaknesses to DT like Monsters (i.e melting), they'd still be vulnerable to things like doubt, hesitation, vacillation, insecurity, and irresolution. All things that would be weaknesses to DT and cause it to drop and fluctuate.

By having SP and DT be the same thing, you create the inconsistency that makes most of the game says and does not make sense.

"Frisk always had that power, just like the other children, but never before did they have so much "mental determination" in them too."

In other words, you literally just confirmed what I said: that they had these abilities as part of their trait, but only unlocked them after meeting their thresholds.

At this point, I do agree that the others must have had S/L/R, since they would have been the most determined being in the Underground by default. But the problem is that they clearly failed; meaning they either had a limited number of uses - due to their traits - or just never knew they had it to begin with.

And that's not even getting into the whole, "they never made it past Asgore" thing. Which can be taken as either, "they made it to him, lost their items along the way, and lost permanently to him," or, "they died where their items were found, and their souls were taken to him."

And before you say that they let their SOULS be taken, the only ones that would be most likely to do that - given what poultry amounts we know about these kids - is the boy/girl that had the Kindness SOUL and MAYBE the Justice SOUL.

"Because despite their soul being filled with DT, one can still feel unmotivated, undetermined, correct? Obviously humans can do that, so something else must be fluctuating for them, if not DT."

First: This is literally what I was saying before about DT's weakness.

Second: So CAN DT fluctuate, or CAN'T it? Because you're very clearly saying that it can here. And if it CAN, then it can't be SP, because it wouldn't be remaining constant like SP would need to be in order for the metric to work. Do you see what I'm saying here?

"And only IF this something is at its maximum do the most difficult "DT cheats" get unlocked."

Right, and that something is clearly DT.

"And Chara? How meta do you wanna go?"

It's what's explicity shown, mentioned, and abused by a character in the game, meaning it's canon. Chara's big speeches after are just them talking to Frisk.

"Despite everything, they're still just a child. If you're saying that human-human fights don't utilize the HUD (and that neither does anything else where at least one side doesn't feature a monster attacker), then Chara couldn't have destroyed the world, only all the remaining monsters, because the HUD doesn't allow them to destroy anything else besides monsters this way (see the power of arbitrary rules?)"

Oh, I didn't know Flowey was a human. I also must not have noticed that no fight was initiated, and that the basic hack at someone till they die method was applicable- as shown by Chara. And yes, they clearly DO destroy the world.

"Also, why did we get locked out? I have an in-game hypothesis for that, but the simpler explanation is, that they've simply locked us out of the game and didn't actually destroy the world."

Meta=/=Canon.

"Affirmative, affirmative, unconfirmed."

How? If you mix slime and slime, you still get slime. If you mix the blood of an animal with the blood of a human, you still get blood. If you mix cereal with another cereal, you still get cereal. If you mix a part of the soul with another part of the soul, you still get a part of the soul!

"We were doing that with electricity and magnetism too at one point. Alphys followed her own cues and conclusions, she didn't provide any proof of her claims. The plaques however are an automatic proof, from principle."

No, they're not. Also, disregarding canon again I see.

"Sure thing. Let's be each other's Kismesis. Ahh I can't wait to tell the other trolls."

Ugh.

">Also, the equation should be like this: X+B+J+K+Pt+I+Pv=SP, solve for X (representing DT).

Alright sweetie, now the final step, prove it. My claims do not require any such horrendous assumptions, so if you cannot do that, I'm automatically correct."

First: Your explanation has been nothing BUT horrendous assumptions!

"That is, if you're seeking a definitive explanation. Also, didn't you just say that the other trais make up DT? Which is it then, do they make it up, or do they not?"

Second: They do, that would be THIS equation: B+J+K+Pt+I+Pv=X (all numbers must be equal to get the correct answer).

The equation you're asking about is based on what I said about SP: it being the power of the SOUL as a whole.

"If they know Toriel, then they know they cannot do that. And Toriel wouldn't leave us, knowing this would be a possible risk."

I'm sorry what? Toriel outright said they Monsters would fight and kill you to get your SOUL. What point are you trying to make here?

"Ofc, you don't need to kill to get the saving power, I never said that. I said that only about the resetting power."

Except S/L/R is structured in a way that prohibites that kind of separation. It's either you have all or none, and both the Omega Flowey and Asriel fights show this. You can still Load, Save, AND reset even after Asriel becomes the God of Hyperdeath; you can't do any of that after he becomes Omega Flowey.

"Lol what makes you think her levels were near-human? Although it's true, monsters can generate their own DT, while humans cannot (since they've got way more than necessary anyways)."

Evidence? THA and I have shown you multiple times proof of the contrary.

"That is another rule. But, once again, before the monster DT levels even start approaching the human levels, the monster begins to melt, since the amount of DT they can handle is proportional to the amount of physical matter inside them. Humans have their bodies. Monsters leave a pile of dust after them."

So WAS Undyne's levels near human or not, your contradicting yourself.

"The monsters haven't figured that one out yet. Specifically, Alphys didn't. Just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't exist or cannot be true."

If the evidence does not insinuate that possibility, nor is there evidence for it, then it's not a case.

"To summarize, it has been shown that human souls cannot fluctuate, but monster souls can, hence why the statement about how many monster souls does one human soul equal is so vague, but why everyone's so sure you need exactly 7 human souls for the barrier."

1. Except they clearly can, it makes no sense for one to do so but not the other. That's like saying fish can swim but humans can't.

2. Or it could just be that they don't know the exact estimate without killing one of their own kind. To find out how much DT is in a monster SOUL, you'd need to extract it from the monster too, and Monsters aren't really portrayed as the type to "Sacrifice the few for the many" so to speak.

3. It could also be that they know that 7 Wizards made the barrier, and that the same number of SOULS would break it down. Much like how it's shown in canon.

"And all thanks to the evidence that is pointing towards DT being soul power."

All you've shown is two plaques, that describe DT, that have been proven time and time again to have nothing to do with SOUL Power.

"And furthermore, evidence is also showing, not only from the above, but also thanks to many other things, that the red trait cannot be DT, at least not solely."

Evidence, please.