Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20170910001514

1)Indeed-He gave away his SOULs, yet can still exist as Asriel. Quite the paradox.. Except not really. You see, we can get our explanation from Boss Monster SOULs.

You see, determination allows them to survive past death for a few seconds. But the SOUL is not dead-It has determination, so it's alive. But once it uses all of its determination up, it shateters-The SOUL is now dead. After all, determination is the will to keep living, and actually is life-Giving Flowey determination gives him life, after all. Either that or essense PLUS determination equals life.

Now it's time to look at SOUL power. Now, we know that SOUL power, whatever it is, is what is required to break the barrier. But, if all the power of the six humans and monsters were used to break the barrier, there would be none left for the monsters nor humans to keep living, under the theory that DT=SOUL power. And if DT was NOT SOUL power, well.. We should expect the monsters to have literally ZERO SOUL strength from using all their power away.

Luckily, we have a solution. The SOUL power, instead of being used AS the blast, continually creates something I'll be calling "SOUL magic", and THAT is what is consumable, what's really "used" to achieve such magical feats. Now, when Flowey absorbs everyone's SOULs, he starts getting all this "SOUL magic" from them, achieving his Hyperdeath form. When he gives the SOULs away, he still has the "SOUL magic" he had left, but can gain no more, and it still requires some to maintain himself, just as it requires determination to maintain a SOUL after death. So his time is limited by the amount of "SOUL magic" he has remaining. Now, this "SOUL magic" can also be used to perform his Asriel for, attacks. Of course, doing so would drain away the same "SOUL magic" that's keeping him as Asriel in the first place. This is why Asriel's minigame is his last goodbye, because directly after that, he becomes Flowey. Directly afterward. He used up all his "SOUL magic" in that "fight".

Indeed, we cannot naturally see others' HUDs. But Asriel might have changed that with more magic. We know he can see his own HUD, and once had control over timeline. (I don't know what to call said person. If Underale is canonically a game, then "the player" would fit perfectly-The player would be not an entity, but a ROLE-Whoever has the most determination is "the player." That also means we and "the player" are not synomynous-Flowey was the player at one point.

However, I stand by it not being a game-If only I had a proper term for the one with this special ability..) And there is one, but only ONE time that we could see someone else's HUD. That would be in Omega Flowey's World. But why? Because at one point, it was ours. Just like someone who had the power to RESET can see/remember RESETs, so too can someone who once had the SAVE be able to see it.

However, that means that with certain magic, it is theoretically possible to see someone else's HUD-It's just not natural. So, what if Asriel used magic to SHOW us his HUD...?

2)No, because the bad posts on the internet is something he didn't do yet, we have no evidence that he made jigsaw pieces, nor snow statues of the dog. Also, yes, it is in past tense. So what? The game takes place in the future! This could be another "plot twist" scenario! If the game takes place in 2022, and the game is released in 2021, that's still in the "past" relative to the game's events, and therefore, would be used in the past-tense. If it takes place in 211X, then that leaves many decades for Toby to make new games before the events of the game, with the game in the corner being literally any one of those games. We can't make assumptions just to debunk a theory-That's not how theories work. We debunk theories with facts, not baseless assumptions.

3)They're cheaper NOW. At one point a TV was cheaper than a computer! The metal used to make the discs won't be as common as code in a century. Soon, the AI will beat it out. Also, let's just say that the discs are somehow still used. Well, why isn't the AI playing the songs? Transhuman post-singularity AI would beat any human at just about any job there is....

4+5+8)The barrier itself is an entrance, if they could go through the barrier to fall underground. And if monsters can fall through the barrier, than so can humans. And eight of them did. If there was no way to get underground, the monsters wouldn't have been able to be banished underground. What, did they just walk through the mountain walls? Why can't they do that now? There had to be SOME entrance!

Also, you say that new info trumps old info, and yet you claim Alphys' True Lab experiments is unreliable, despite it being one of the latest info we're ever given, saying that DT is SOUL power, despite the fact that Alphys clearly sees the two as different in her experiments-Otherwise she could have just used the determination she extracted AS her SOUL power, to unleash the power of the SOUL. But no, it was a side project to see if she could get monster SOULs to persist, so she could use SOUL power from them! If new info trumps old info, then DT is not SOUL power, because Alphys would trump the plaques. Also, I see no evidence that their SOULs fused into one. Where does it say that? How do we know it wasn't like Omega Flowey, with Asriel and Chara's SOULs existing as two separate SOULs within Asriel's body?

The monsters figured it out, based upon the fact that A-Asriel was found wounded when he fell, B-The last wish, and C-It took Asriel a long while to reach the castle. From the Ruins to New Home. He could have told his story to the monsters on his way to the castle, when they would have asked why he was wounded.

Except it's not. While the explanations are quite complex, they don't comtradict each other, nor the evidence itself. I'm not trying to make a simple theory. I'm trying to make a theory of all that is Undertale-One that fits in with all the facts-Just as science is looking for a theory of everything that ALSO fits in with all the facts, and explains everything.

6)The icons aren't accurate represenations of what's being done. Mercy's icon is an "X"... That doesn't make sense as a represenation.

7)But that's just it. Frisk can reset without a SOUL visible, meaning that Frisk CAN do things without a SOUL visible. So you can't use the fact that no SOUL is visible as evidence that Frisk isn't there in the other menus.

8)There's Undertale's "meta canon", and then there's Undertale's "canon" universe. They are two different things. In the "meta" canon, we have a bunch of actors.

Also, your Napstablook point pretty much disproved that notion. I do try and support my side, but I won't just blindly follow it when the evidence actually debunks the theory. I can't think of a way for the Napstablook point to make sense if they weren't actors. Remember the "normal" paradox I mentioned? Yeah, that made me change my stance on Hard mode. Do note that I also said the narrator is the directly, and everything that's not canon, the narrator tells us so, because the actors messed up. For example, in the "canon" hard mode, Napstablook is NOT at "normal" difficulty. But, if the narrator doesn't object to it, it's canon. I explained as much as I could in the actual post.

9)I actually explained this in my actual post. Flowey copied your file onto his own "File 1" before destroying your SAVE. He has a copy of it, so he can give it back to you. Besides, why else would he refuse to load File 1? Maybe he had it there in case he got bored and wanted to get back to messing around in the Underground, with all the monsters?

11)Flowey absorbs more than one SOUL when he becomes Omega Flowey, yet he still steals our power away then. And both Asriel Dreemurr and Frisk are at their peak determination-We already know what makes determination fluctuate-Undyne's determination was boosted because she knew killing you was the only way to save the world. OUR determination was boosted because if we WEREN'T determined, Asriel would reset the timeline, and erase everyone's memories. It'd be a True Reset. And since a True Reset erases Flowey's memories, then if Asriel did a True Reset, Frisk's memories would be reset. And so, they'd lose to Asriel again. And again.

Alphys specifically said "at least" a human and monster SOUL. Two human SOULs could theoretically qualify. Besides, if breaking the barrier doesn't require magic, then why would passing through the barrier require magic? If it's SOUL power that's required to break the barrier, then it should also be what's required to cross it-It's the same barrier, after all.

Actually, I was using proof by comtradiction. I was going by your theory, just to prove that it would result in a nonsense. Of course, I don't actually believe DT matters in the slightest when it comes to breaking the barrier-SOUL power does. But according to your theory, DT is what would matter, and since I'm evaluating your theory, I'm using your premises in my analysis. And also, we don't have any evidence as to what contributes the measurement of SOUL power. We just know that it takes the SOUL power of all the monsters combined to equal that of one human, and that Monster DT<Flowey's DT<Frisk's DT. For all we know, monsters could be, say.. 40% as determined as humans! Also, SOUL power was used to make the barrier. The barrier was locked with SOUL power, she never said the barrier is SOUL power. She didn't confuse her terminology.

Yes, it does require a monster SOUL to cross the barrier, and so, the statement is false. Yet, the evidence proves this must be true, if DT is SOUL power. The evidence goes against BOTH possibilities. We have a nonsensical paradox! This is the point I was trying to make. If we say DT is SOUL power, we get a nonsense like this. Of course you need a monster SOUL! It's just that doesn't make sense if DT is SOUL power! Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that DT is not SOUL power. Then, it's no longer a nonsense, as the evidence that suggests you wouldn't need a monster SOUL no longer matters, as we have no evidence that SOUL power "fluctuates". So actually, we're not picking a "side". My theory is that SOUL does not fluctate like determination does-For if it did, we get this very paradox all over again. That's the only way to explain all the evidence.

11.11)I already explained my take on wizards-They're a special kind of human, that can use magic-I call them "Boss Humans", as they're similar to Boss Monsters in this regard-Having some of an ability normally exclusive to the other race. Frisk is not a Boss Human, onviously.

12)Where are we told that is what Asgore declared? The story told by the monsters only says that all humans who fall down will die, and that it's almost time to break the barrier, that you'll be free. (Apparently they don't understand that you're a human. They think you're a monster, and you should be cheering for freedom when the last human arrives.)

13)Chara has been wrong on things other than their actions before, such as the taste of licorise Monster Candy. And no, now we're adding to evidence again. Frisk denying Chara's statements only means Chara's statement was inaccurate. If Frisk didn't cry, then they would obviously deny that they cried, when Chara flat-out said they did cry. Frisk didn't cry, as that wasn't what the button said, and we point this out to Chara. There's no evidence Frisk didn't laugh at all.

14)Neutral:Well yes, I use Frisk and us interchangeably. However, that doesn't profe the player exists as a canon entity. It was a message for Frisk, and likewise, a message for us, but there's nothing meta about it. In-universe, it was just Flowey talking to Frisk. He didn't mention it as "the player". Once again, we're "roleplaying" Frisk, and don't canonically exist.

Pacifist-Didn't we both agree that Frisk and Chara share the power to SAVE and LOAD? Yes, Chara can reset. That's what they do at the ene of the Genocide Route if you give them your SOUL.

Genocide-He knows there's a narrator in all the routes. That's how he knows about Chara's existence in Pacifist. There's no evidence he doesn't know about the narrator Neutral either:I actually theorize that he did, but he just didn't speak directly to them, as he had no real reason to-We're the one in control, after all. What he didn't figure out was the identity of the narrator-That's something he only found out at the end of the Pacifist Run. (He doesn't know Chara's the narrator in Geno-He calls them a sicko after all. He just knows there IS a narrator.)

...Well played. Though, we still don't know why quantum mechanics works the way it does-It really seems unnatural.. Just like the HUD. Remember, my theory on why the HUD exists is intellegent design. How intellegent of a design choice that was, I do not know. This is only evidence that someone designed the world of Undertale, not that it's code. After all, Undertale never acknolwedges itself to be a game. (Unless you take Asriel's speech about it being a game to mean it's a literal game.)

There's already plenty of evidence the narrator can be heard. So why can't we say Flowey was speaking to the narrator? Like I said before, Undertale should have done a OneShot if it wanted to refer to the player specifically, instead of Chara's name. If Undertale did do this, I would take it as confirmation that the player is a canon entity in Undertale. Then there's the laughing setup, but it turns out that even if there was no player and Frisk laughed, just like the button said, they would still respond to Chara's narration the same way, because Frisk didn't cry like Chara said-So that's not evidence of a player. We're not "skewing" evidence, we're explaining the evidence, as it is. Besides, you'd have to explain why us/Frisk are seeing this "skewed" HUD instead of the real HUD. ...I'll just stick with the simple theory that the HUD we see IS the real HUD, as Sans interacts with it, and Flowey tells you about it. Oh, and Asgore destroys MERCY, so the buttons are canon. And moving the box to press them is canon because of Sans. So.. Yeah. But here, I have explanations that take the evidence for what it is. Flowey said Chara's name because he's talking to Chara. (He no longer thinks we're Chara, and refers to Frisk in third-person.) Chara can reset. And Frisk denies Chara's statement because Chara said they cried.

15)He was obviously trolling the monsters, pretending to be foiled. He does the same to us when we "defeat" him-He could have LOADed File 3 from the start, and he had the idea to SAVE that file from the very beginning. Besides, Flowey capturing the main monsters allowed him to make his speech about how this is all our fault, and could have attracted the other monsters to come to tell us not to give up. Also, it was the very monsters that he help captive in his vines that blocked his attacks-Not the new monsters. That COULD be suprising. Flowey didn't absorb those monster SOULs he had captive right away. He was WAITING for the others to come in, so he could absorb them all at once, and become Asriel. The other monsters came in AFTER the main ones deflected Flowey's attacks.

Trolling everyone and then calling them stupid isn't "stuttering". It's doing what he did as Omega Flowey.