Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190403163405/@comment-32182236-20190415131910

You assume that Chara had no dust. But can you prove that? If Chara’s soul was in Asriel, and fragments of it were in Asriel’s dust, how you can say Chara’s essense wasn’t in the dust, too?

I was referring to Chara themselves. Their body. If you read the rest of the section, in context, you'd understand what my justification was:Humans don't have dust. But you do make a point. If Chara had split control over Chasriel, their essence must have been there as well-Otherwise they wouldn't have split control in the first place. This does place Chara's essence right where Chasriel died-In the garden. (I wonder why nobody, me or any other theorist, thought of this? Surely, someone should have thought of that before?)

...Nice job, Ferret.

You say the Determination experiments began after the sixth human fell? Can you prove this?

Yes, actually.

From the determination experiments came Flowey. And Flowey had to have come after the sixth human fell, for one, simple reason.

Flowey couldn't have met a human before Frisk.

And to understand why he couldn't have met a human before Frisk, we have to talk about SLR again.

If Flowey did meet a human before Frisk, one of two things might happen. Either Flowey would lose against that human for SLR, meaning he has no reason to be surprised that he'd lose his DT when Frisk is around either, and the speech about Frisk/Chara being the only non-predictable one.. Would be meaningless.

..Or Flowey would win. When Flowey say Frisk, he thought he could take their SOUL. He wanted to steal a human SOUL.. So, if he won, he'd succeed in doing this to the previous human, and he'd have THAT soul. He'd have no reason to make Asgore show them, he'd already have at least one of them. He could then beat Asgore himself with this power.

Hold on, you can’t say that Chara kills Alphys, Bratty, Catt, Burgerpants, and Monster Kid. Alphys took all of them (and herself) to somewhere where ‘Chara could never get to them.’

Chara? Mettaton was talking to Frisk!

But the Core is a sprawling facility that engages in massive overkill. And from all the high-powered lasers that are blanket-layered over the interior of the core, energy conservation really isn’t an issue.

Yeah, perhaps a lot of the power was used on those lasers.. Just as most of the rocket fuel on a rocket is actually needed.. Just to lift its own weight up.

There’s an excess of available power. The Core was designed by a certified mad scientist for a purpose far greater than simply providing electricity.

Hmmm, I wonder what's it's used for.. *zoom-in on the lasers*

And the security is paranoid. Whenever the lasers are on, monsters who routinely work in the building are suddenly unable to move about.

Ferret, let's ask a question. What would happen if the Core, the source of all the Underground's power, was successfully damaged/destroyed/shut off? The answer to that question should explain why the security is paranoid. Remember, the CORE is the only generator of power in the Underground. There is no other generator that can start working if the CORE is down.

So, if the CORE went down.. The entire Underground would be devoid of power. The Undernet? Gone. And since this was the entire Underground, then every server would be down as well. I sure hope you guys have it in S-RAM, else the Undernet just lost all of its websites, and needs to be remade from scratch.

A full-on, nationwide power outage? That's a pretty big deal. And I'm pretty sure Gaster knew he wouldn't live forever. (He probably didn't predict he'd fall into his own creation, but..)

There’s a definitely a dimensional portal in the Core. Gaster designed and invented the core. And died by falling into his invention. Which scattered him across time and space. Which would not be possible if he wasn’t research time and space travel. And what device Gaster fell into is still present in the Core. Because the Gaster Followers wonder if Alphys will face the same fate.

Everything but those last two statements (and your premise) are spot-on. Gaster had to have been researching time and space travel. But.. Isn't Alphys researching that kind of stuff too? Maybe that's what the Followers meant?

Why did Alphys know that Chara would destroy the universe? Because Alphys is good friends with Sans, who originally traveled to the Underground to research the Anomaly which was threatening to destroy the universe. So Sans told Alphys about it. And Alphys warned Muffet that Chara had to be stopped.

"until suddenly, everything ends"-Sans

So Sans did indeed predict this!

..Wait.. Does that mean that Genocide is the canonical ending..?

Underneath her massive dreadknight armor, Undyne is a rail-thin wisp of a stick-figure. There is nothing about her appearance that suggests herculean strength was ever one of the gifts she had since birth.

Appearances can be deceiving, Ferret. Is there anything about Toriel's appearance that suggests that she has a lot of power?

Monsters are mostly made of magic, rather than physical matter. So that means their strength more than likely depends on the power of their magic, not what they physically look like.

Undyne did not BEAT Asgore.. She knocked him down.

Knocking down. That means KO, Ferret. When Frisk kept kitting Asgore, he didn't fall down until he almost died.

This is very different from throwing Toriel off the Throne of the Monsters. Undyne would have to not only strike Toriel consistently, should would also have to dodge all of the attacks of a creature who defeated Asgore with a single fireball.

Toriel just sent Asgore back with the fireball. That's not defeating him.. Or is knocking someone back the same as defeating them after all?

Whatever choice you pick, we reach the same conclusion. Toriel did to Asgore what Undyne did to Asgore. Whether they both count as defeating, or none of them do, they both lead here.

This is very different from throwing Toriel off the Throne of the Monsters. Undyne would have to not only strike Toriel consistently, should would also have to dodge all of the attacks of a creature who defeated Asgore with a single fireball. Toriel’s stats are A80 D80. Undyne’s stats are A7 D0. Even assuming years of additional training, the chances of Undyne actually defeating Toriel in a real battle are laughable. And yet… according to Sans.. she performed this very feat in some of the bad endings.

If Undyne was killed, then Toriel just peacefully resigns after hearing about the rebellion, turning the Underground into an anarchy. Given this, it's clear Toriel didn't wish to fight. And what happens when a monster doesn't want to fight?

You seem to consider yourself a higher authority on Undertale lore than Toby and the entire Undertale community, able to actively rewrite the lore on a whim to fit whatever you want it to be.

Oh, Ferret.. Didn't you read the lab entry?

I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination." -Entry 5

No determination=No will to keep living. No will to keep living=You are dead.

When Flowey was injected with determination, that's what brought him back to life. And when he tried to kill himself, he got this primal feeling.. That he didn't want to die! What was this feeling?

And that argument you just made counters your other argument that Gaster’s DE Experiments must have occurred at a time when six human souls had already been captured, because otherwise Gaster would have had no source of Determination to work with.

They don't generate DT, they just have DT. And Gaster doesn't just need tiny fragments of DT. He needs enough to S/L/R, and find a way to go back to before the Barrier broke.

Or, if he was trying to break the Barrier, he needs enough SOUL power to match seven human SOULs.

Alphys made it clear that the determination was extracted from the human SOULs. That statement alone means at least two humans after Chara must have fallen. (I've already explained why all six must have fallen-Flowey's our missing link)

Even Undyne's DT wouldn't be enough for Gaster's experiments. No way. After all, she never had S/L/R.

Other than the Amalgamates, and perhaps ghosts like Napstablook, no other monster we encounter in the game shows the Determination Melting and malleability that results from its presence, other than Undyne.

Determination melting happens if you have too much DT. And if ghosts have DT melting, that's because they lack physical matter entirely, and thus, melting happens at even the tiniest traces of DT.

Since then, the seagrass has spread to other places. Like the large patch Frisk hid in when Undyne had her conversation with Papyrus. Much like how the Golden Flowers infused with Asriel/Chara’s energy spread to other places as well.

How do we know it's the same seagrass? If I see grass on a farm, and the same kind of grass on the sidewalk, does that mean the grass on one had to COME from the grass on the other?

You play VERY FAST AND LOOSE with how ready you are to declare that lore details don’t matter.

Believe it or not, I was saying your theory still holds, even if that specific assumption was wrong.

Why was the patch suspiciously smaller than any other patch? Because some of it was taken. Meaning that the original patch, with the human remnant, was taken. So it doesn't matter whether or not DT can spread afar like that-Your theory still holds. It would have DT.

Here we have a second case where exposure to the remains of a dead human causes plants to behave in a strange way and gain unusual properties. This matters a lot. It gives us a frame of reference for the Golden Flowers.

We don't have evidence that the plants spread. And if you were going to use that as evidence to support your Golden Flower claim, why didn't you place that BEFORE your golden flower claim?

What’s this “mystery kickstarter game” you’re talking about?

It's just that. A mystery. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1002143342/undertale/posts/541086

Back when Undertale was in its kickstarter days, Toby announced that after the completion of Undertale, he'd work on the scripts to a comic, and another game, showing more about Undertale's worlds and characters. Toby Fox has been working on Deltarune scripts since 2012, so he can't be talking about Deltarune:https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/1057988038914138114

That means he must be talking about a third game.

What gave me the idea that Shyren is young? Because she becomes a traveling pop star, although she starts out very self-conscious.

….People can be popstars without being young. Did you find more evidence to back up your claim afterwards?

My point about the Fallen Down monsters was that NONE of them turned to dust on Alphy’s watch. She never got to test of her hypothesis about monster souls could be collected after Fallen Down monsters turned to dust.. Because none of them did, they woke up again.

Exactly. Why? Because she injected them with determination. She may have intended for this to only make the SOUL persist, but injecting someone with determination will make them persist, like what happened with Flowey, and the Amalgamates. And Undyne.

Alphys injected them with determination in Entry 6, and it's Entry 9 where Alphys ponders why they're not turning into dust.

Omega Flowey and the Amalgamates are certainly different types of fusions. Because Omega Flowey contains several different souls that stay separate and don’t actually combine in the fusion. While the Amalgamates blend completely and inseparably, because there are no souls in that soup, and nothing to keep the bodies from merging together perfectly.

That's right! So to compare one to the other as if they're the same is fallacious.

For an “uncontrolled experiment”, the Fallen all seemed to undergo the same type of transformation.

Ferret.. Alphys wasn't the one making an uncontrolled experiment.. It was you!

By assuming that Alphys injecting Undyne with trace amounts of determination should naturally lead to the same effects as injecting monsters with huge amounts of determination all at once, your test is flawed! There's a counfounding variable here:The amount of DT injected!

I'm not going to deny that Undyne touched Monster Kid. But the explanation is already there:Undyne has less DT than the Amalgamates. When she gains more, to turn into Undyning, based on her resolve, and then tries to become Super Saiyan 2 (or 3 by your count), it becomes too much, and she melts.