Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-28777918-20160618024323/@comment-27701762-20160618063204

Goalready wrote:
 * The Blood.

From me saying that Sans has a human body, you'd think I was amplying that he had human blood, but I guess some people didn't get it, so I'll explain.

I was trying to disprove some people's "excuses" for the blood, like, it isn't kecthup and it isn't pure Determination. I didn't specfically say,"Oh. It's human blood.", because I can't prove that, but if Sans were human, I think he would be bleeding human blood. Sure, if Sans were human, it could be human blood. Though as you also go to pains to point out, there's no explanation for how it could be human blood, either. So all that we're left with is that it is a mysterious red liquid. You could just decide it's human blood, since that would support the conclusion that Sans is human, but we could just as easily decide that it's just ketchup, since it would support the conclusion that Sans is a monster. Justifying a piece of evidence based on the conclusion is backwards.

* Okay, your, "Sans feels while Papyrus doesn't.", has no connection to your paragraph. And yes, Pap can't feel pain, or the cold. I got sidetracked with the eating thing and forgot to bring up a point that would broaden the subject.

You say that Papyrus can't feel pain, but he specifically has a "hurt" sprite.

In addition, Papyrus makes reference to how he can't feel his legs if he is forced to run back and forth during his date. By the logic you wish to employ, this line is completely superfluous, since by not having any nerves he wouldn't be able to feel period.

We should also note that skeletons also don't have tear ducts, and yet Papyrus is capable of crying. If we are going to base everything about Papyrus based on his being a skeleton (and as Cheeseskates mentioned earlier, Papyrus isn't a skeleton, but a skeletal monster), then we run into a problem here.

* Sorry, I knew I shouldn't have said that humans created the name for the sun. But still? Why does Sans suddenly start calling Pap,"My friend." Because it's a common phrase in the English language, my friend. Your suggestion is that Sans has carried on a ruse of being Papyrus's brother for who knows how long, and not only that but has developed a deep affection for Papyrus, to the point of always referring to Papyrus as his brother and hating you for killing Papyrus, but at one moment long after all of this has been done, Sans suddenly abandons his habit and affection within mere moments? If you want to talk about "common sense," this flies directly in face of common sense.

* No. I will not accept that you're saying that Sans could just 'assume' how many times he has killed you based on,'Deja vu', or your expressions. He gets it EXACTLY, almost every time, too. No, you can't convince me that Sans is some God on this whole,'reading your expression', thing, because he is still only one person (or monster), he isn't a God.

I can't provide anymore 'facts' on this, because it's common sense. Except as you noted, Sans doesn't get it "exactly" right. At two points he gets it right, but isn't sure, and even specifies that there is nuance to reading expressions, and after a while is unable to keep up.

In turn, Sans continually makes reference to reading your expression or reaction: when you turn around immediately when first encountering Sans, during the Sans "date," if you reload and redo his judgment, when you attack him during the spare sequence after being tricked. If Sans actually "remembers" this stuff, and not only that but knows that you're the one controlling the timeline, then A) this ruse is completely unnecessary, and B) Sans knows that it is unnecessary. As such, if Sans does indeed have this perfect knowledge, there is no way to explain these pieces of dialogue.

In addition, we'd be stuck with the "don't tell the other Sans-es" line, which is likewise unnecessary: there's no need to tell them anything, as they either A) already know what has happened, or B) don't properly "exist."

Sans doesn't have to be a god at the whole thing. But let me put it this way:

For the moment, assume the opposite conclusion - Sans does not have the same ability to remember these events like Flowey does (note that Flowey never makes use of any such ruses, or makes references to "other Floweys," nor does he do anything like what Sans does). However, he does have knowledge of what is going on, and that someone or something can manipulate timelines. Now, as someone who is aware that there are time travelers, how would he know that they exist? More importantly, how would this very specific type of knowledge be communicated in the context of a retro video game?

You say "it's common sense," but common sense based on what? That real people who are aware of timelines being manipulated can't read expressions to tell how many times a person has died?

* No, my theory on, Monster were made by humans, did have something to do with it, I had to explain that for my Color theory to make any sense, and to have any sort of backrground, then the Color theory would provide some more background to Sans blood.

This theory isn't in full swing tho, just thought I would mention it. The Color Theory seems to be the idea that "color in the battles is important." As a brief digression, I don't quite understand the argument here, because you seem to be referring to color on sprites, but then move to how the monsters alter the color of the heart. On the former, to my knowledge only Asgore, Toriel, and Sans have any color on their sprites in battle. Meanwhile, colors in attacks and changing the heart are shared by numerous different monsters, not just bosses. I'm certainly willing to admit that Sans's flashing eye is weird and needs to be explained, but the Color Theory doesn't do it.

Returning to the point at hand, the Color Theory is independent of the origin of monsters. The only connection you provide between monsters and humans is Asgore, who was apparently taught by humans. But this teaching could happen without monsters being created by humans, since monsters lived on the Surface peacefully with humans before the war.

Meanwhile, on its own, the idea that monsters were made by humans doesn't contribute to the conclusion, since there would essentially be four possibilities: 1) Sans is a human, and humans created monsters. 2) Sans is a monster, and humans created monsters. 3) Sans is a human, and humans did not create monsters. 4) Sans is a monster, and humans did not create monsters.

However, whether humans created monsters is independent of whether Sans is human. Both (1) and (3) can be used to explain the same facts, rendering the former theory irrelevant to the subject matter.

As a side note, your Color Theory actually doesn't contribute to your conclusion either, as Sans could have learned the special human magic from Papyrus, leading to the conclusion that Sans is in fact a monster.

* I was talking about Sans dialogue not to prove he is a human, but to give more background and meaning to his story, and explain why he so badly wanted to kill you, and not just say,"All monsters naturally hate humans and want to kill them.", because that isn't true. And this "background" only works on the presumption that Sans is human, and in the specific fashion that you outline. Like so many others, you get ahead of yourself by concocting an elaborate story to explain the motivations for a character given that your theory is true, when we need to first be focused on making sure the theory is actually true.

* Sans wasn't trying to kill you, in fact, far from it. His only goal was to get you to,"Quit", and let go of this entire 'game'.

More specifically, make you rage-quit, and just killing you outright doesn't feel fair, nor would it convince you not to come back, and Sans wouldn't have gotten to talk to you. And he knows that the only way to get you to quit is to prevent you from progressing until you get too frustrated to continue. So why accomplish this goal by making a difficult fight, rather than one that is literally impossible, since according to your theory he has that power? And why, if he wants you to quit, does he not further frustrate you by resetting the timeline at any point, since he also seems to have that power according to your theory? Why shuffle off?

The reason Sans failed to dodgue your last attack, is because he wasn't expecting it, he doesn't expect you to hit twice, and time wasn't slowed down there (because his talking is in normal speed), so he didn't see the unexpected hit coming.

Then, why he wouldn't Load once he dies? Hmm. I don't know. But you can't say he can't stop time because the proof is at Grillby's, and stopping time goes in my file for controlling the Resets, Saves, and Loads. And this showcases how the theory attributes so much that it does actually make Sans a god, but a rather foolish one.

You shrug off why he doesn't load as a minor issue, but that is the most important point of all. If Sans has all this power that you say he does, then there is not only no reason not to reset the timeline once he's beaten, but he should be resetting the timeline any time you do something "bad." Did you kill Papyrus? Reset. Is Toriel gone? Reset. Did you harm a single monster? Reset. Do you look creepy, like you might hurt people? Reset. The fact that the only person who actually exhibit the power to reset the game are the protagonist and Flowey, and both use this power freely, by all accounts Sans should be doing the same as well.

* Didn't I say Sans grew to 'love' Pap, and I'm not even sure if he is 'that' much of a protector of him, I mean, he does let you kill him, I don't think thats protecting. Except Sans chastises you if you insult Papyrus. And he tells you pretty clearly that you should not kill Papyrus. And he resents you very strongly when you do, even if the only thing you do on your entire run is kill Papyrus. Meanwhile, Sans also tries to make sure that Papyrus doesn't get into trouble (as he does in the True Pacifist ending). Sans certainly doesn't step in during the Papyrus fight, but that's an effect of the progression of the video game: since Sans is designed to be the final boss fight, you can't have his fight in Snowdin, while you are only about 40-50% of the way through the game.

Why pose as bros? For the big effect. The two skeleton bros, one adorable and the other...odd. Not:

Two skeletons magically show up one day, one is obviously werid.

Too much attention, I say. It would be better if Sans posed as Paps bro, it would reduce the scary factor about them (who doesn't like a family?), and it would explain why they both 'showed up' at the same time, also Sans has a reason for knowing Pap. And Chara and Asriel,"Became like sibilings.", who says Sans and Pap didnt do the same? So then why would Sans need to go to Snowdin? The only thing he seems to do is hang around practicing jokes and eating at Grillby's. If he wants to acquire a human soul, why not go to Asgore and just forcibly take one of the six that are there? If he wants to escape the Underground, or become a god, or whatever motivation you want to attribute to him, then he is much better served by doing this than waiting around in Snowdin. Nor, for that matter, would he ever make (and hold, up to a specific point) the promise to never harm a human, since it would completely contradict his goal.

All of these problems are much more easily solved by "Sans is a skeletal monster, and Papyrus's older brother." Why go to such great lengths to construct such an elaborate revision of the story? Especially when there is only a tiny amount of direct evidence being offered, and even that evidence is based on conjecture.