Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180822185814

"The one about there being many Floweys was a direct hit at the real world. Undertale was not a reflection of the real world after all."

But that proves that Undertale wasn't peaching pacifism as an actual lifestyle to use. ..Or it proves nothing because we never really know what he meant. You see, even 3 years from now, we'll never truly find out what he meant. Because there really IS no answer for us to find in that sense. We have an objective story (Canon as the game has shown), and the fandom's interpretations that alter it, trying to make it like what they THINK is canon as Toby intended..

"He still loved them, even wished he could see them again. He said this himself."

Right.. Still no hope, though.

"Which was before all of that. Afterwards, Asgore changed his mind."

Toriel kind of exposes that change in decision as fake. I'm with her on this one:If he really wanted to free the monsters, he could have crossed the barrier with one SOUL, and taken six from the surface. They don't even have to be from living humans-It could be from those who had died recently!

"He didn't care about any war, all he wanted was to see the surface, nevermind the consequences"

No, not even that. Remember how Toriel proved that wrong?

"That's the kind of hope that there was inside him. If he lost hope, he would give up, don't you think?"

He DID. He's only keeping up a façade of all this, he actually doesn't want another human to fall, and would rather have everyone stay underground miserable.

"Yeah, he regretted killing those children, didn't he?"

We have no evidence he did. We do have evidence he didn't want to do it, but that's under the context that he doesn't want to gather seven human SOULs, since he actually DOESN'T want to reach the Surface.

"And of course, he still has compassion for his own kind too."

Perhaps. Maybe he actually believes that book, and thinks if he doesn't give them hope, they'll all disappear. (If you're made of hope, and you lose all your hope.. You've literally lost YOURSELF.) ...Asgore, if that were true, you would have disappeared a long time ago.

"Because there isn't a happier one, and accepting this is healthy."

That's too much of a distortion of the original Clam Girl speech.

And I would argue that the Pacifist Neutral ending was happier.

"Toby meant this happy ending to play out like this. And aren't the monsters all shown happy at the end? I don't think there was any war afterwards."

No humans at all. Maybe the monsters won the war this time around. After all, this time, they'd be the ones suprising the humans!

"I guess we agree then, idk."

I'm saying most of the monsters that create a FIGHT want to kill you, but the actual number of those compared to those that don't is quite small-Just a little over 100 actually attack you.

"Or the Froggits, who know a great deal about the game..."

Not every Froggit is the same. The NPC Froggits are peaceful. The ones who encounter you through a FIGHT want to kill you.

"or the Vegetoids, who apparently only want to stuff you with greens."

They only tell you to eat your greens after you ask for dinner. Even then, there's only one green in there compared to a massive amount of whites. Though at that point, he likely did want that (quite aggressively, though. Pretty much "Eat your greens or I kill you". Woah there, Vegetoid. Your negotiation is as bad as the Sith's.)

"It's still a valid option."

Yes, it is. But that doesn't prove they didn't want to fight, it just means that you escaped the monster. They didn't LET you leave, you escaped the battle. When their name turns yellow, NOW they're letting you leave.

"Maybe you're just that interesting to them? :)"

"You're soo interesting.. Can I have that SOUL of yours? I want you.. The two of us will be together forever.."-Monster attacks+Love=?

"As in, convinicing them to leave the battle, by any means."

Yeah, that one is accurate.

"There's no way they can see it though (Papyrus being an exception of course)."

What makes Papyrus, of all monsters, the exception? (Toriel does it too, by the way. And Mettaton, that's how he always makes your HP only get cut in half on the quite, and skips to the final question at 1HP.)

"And as I said, maybe these bullets are harmless to monsters, as the book from the Snowdin library said."

They'd find out otherwise when they notice your HP bar dropping..

"That's not you turning hostile. If it were, the spare option would disappear at least for some monsters, those intelligent enough to get offended by this. But it never does."

It doesn't even when you physically give them damage, either, which is, at this point, objectively hostile. So.. why not again? ...Looks like we found something that I haven't explained in the game yet.

"Which, as I said, is a translation to human terms. The bullets hurt us, so it may as well be a fight to us."

So, there's two possibilities for this. One, the Froggit did it, meaning a monster would likely know this.. Many of them know you're human, after all. The second, Chara fudged the translation.. But then they might as well fake other aspects to put things in their favor.

"Nothing that happened in a different timeline ever matters, save for you giving your soul to Chara pretty much."

Undertale's actually against this line of thinking. The monsters remember what happened in previous timelines, at least somewhat.. Flowey recalls exactly what happens, and calls you out for sparing Toriel after killing her.

...Looking, arguing using a bunch of subjective qualities and quantities will never get us anywhere. Not even after 3 years. Not even after 30 years.

"But as many gamers have noticed, it is quite intensively trying to constantly rail you into the pacifist route."

Actually, it starts with a Neutral Route.

"Toby wants you to reach that ending, he does not consider the endings all equal, even if they're equal from a non-meta point of view. You'd be a fool to deny this."

He wants you to reach all the endings so that he can call you out on killing everyone.. Because that's what you do in an RPG.

"Or even better, if you consider those final Flowey speeches at the end of ever route canon, then even better, even the non-meta is trying to steer you into the pacifist ending."

Neutral->Pacifist->Genocide. That's the path you're meant to take.

"I think it said precisely that."

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5QkRlRGV5NEIzejQ

"Love, hope, compassion. This is what people say monster* SOULs are made of. But the absolute nature of SOUL** is unknown. After all, humans*** have proven that they don't need these things to exist." -Librarby (Also in the link)

*:Note that. Specifically monster SOULs. Not human ones.

**:But here, "monster" is absent, so the book means the nature of SOULs in general isn't known.

***:Specifically humans. Not monsters.

..Yeah, no. That's not what it said.

"Can you bring any other argument for this besides Asgore himself? You know, to show that he simply wasn't an exception?"

The statement was absolute. It said monster SOULs were literally MADE of those things. If that is true, there can't be an exception:Not having those things means your SOUL can't exist. That's like having a working car without any wheels-You just can't do it. Asgore goes against this.

"Maybe it does. Maybe they change the flavor of their attacks from friendly to hostile at that moment. Except, you can't tell, as both harm your soul in your case."

Because of something we discussed earlier, that's actually quite unlikely. For some reason, they remain spareable even after you attack, if you made them such in the first place. ...Perhaps this is another rule of the HUD? Once your name turns yellow (or pink), you can't make it white again?

"Sure, I agree on that. But what does a fight mean?"

It means a fight, what else is it supposed to be? It's obvious! A battle! A duel! Two sides fighting against each other!

"The fact that there's a mercy option does not make this an actual combat or something."

It's not the mercy option, it's the fact that the bullets are aimed at you, and harm you, and we're in a FIGHT, and they won't let you use it.

"Mercy has two options, one that lets you flee, and one that lets the other person flee. Of course, the other person may not want to, so you must first convince them to do so."

The fact that your HP bar is getting lowered should be proof enough that what they're doing is wrong.

"Because it's identical to a reset. You execute both from the same menu screen. And they're similar nonetheless, one moves you to one spot, another one moves you to a different spot. Same thing imo."

Resets also still take the same amount of time. My point was, why aren't they affected by the slower download/upload times?

"Natural regeneration? Nah, that cannot be replicated artificially. You must really go to sleep, so that it can use that part of the brain for this task. It's a costly task. And a simple snack doesn't cut it."

You really only have to "sleep" for a few minutes for that. Which isn't simply your usual amount of sleep, because the innkeeper makes it a point that being rested after a few minutes is amazing.

"You can also wait any amount of time in the underground and when you come out, it's always sunrise."

The game likely retcons the amount of time you stay asleep past Asriel's battle to fit the sunrise.

"I think the game might be neglecting time."

Time=/=Number of bullets

"Because your cellphone is casting it. It makes more sense for there to be a method hidden inside it, rather than a magical reservoir. I don't think Alphys managed to do the latter."

She did. Mettaton's electric attacks are just that. Why can't the same thing be the case here?

"That's the case only with humans. No one else is connected like this."

Didn't you say monsters were even MORE connected with HP, though? It being used to make up all of their body?