Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190131130037/@comment-32182236-20190303014811

..By the way, I wasn't joking about asking for the prerequisites. You're making some of these claims as if they've been proven already, when as far as I'm aware, they haven't, and they aren't what we naturally believe anyways either.

Anyways, I should probably get to..

--Chapter 2:Where Humans Get Confused With Monsters--

This begs the question.. If Chara’s human soul is still in Asriel.. What soul does Chara have in the games?

None. They're soulless.

Flowey answers this question in the Genocide Route after Frisk kills Toriel, by referring to her and her “stolen soul”. Frisk’s soul, the one the player is actually able to control.

There was no question. Flowey thought Frisk was Chara reincarnated. Flowey further elaborates on this near the end of the Genocide Route. He clearly confuses Frisk's actions with Chara. He thinks Frisk is Chara. So, seeing Frisk coming down as Chara coming back, of COURSE he'd think Frisk's SOUL is owned by Chara now, instead of, you know, Frisk?

Chara asks for Frisk's SOUL. If they already had it, they wouldn't need to ask for it at the end of the Genocide Route. So not only is this claim unfounded, it's actually factually incorrect.

We see something like that at the end of Deltarun Chapter 1. Where Kris, who has a very Chara-like single stripe on her shirt, tear’s our Frisk’s soul and throws it in a cage, where the player is still able to move it around during the cutscene. We might control that heart.. But Chara now controls the body.

We were the ones possessing Kris, changing the file name from Kris to our own name. Take a look at what the monsters say about Kris, and how they remember them. Kris acted a lot differently than we did. The ending cutscene is just Kris taking our control away from us, becoming free.

And Asriel and Chara’s dust was scattered over many flowers besides the first one, so a spark of their essence can be found in ALL the golden flowers. This is why you find patches of golden flowers growing in strange, inhospitable, yet convenient places in Undertale. Alphys studied how injecting flowers with determination made their seeds cling more firmly, flowers that were determined to live and grow despite the odds.

Chara had no dust. Only Asriel did. Chara's essence was entirely in their SOUL and in their original body, which is why they were not brought back to life until we fell unto those flowers. Humans don't have dust. That's a monster thing.

Also, the patches in inhospitable places was a result of the DT alone. Essence has nothing to do with it. Otherwise, Asriel would be living as those flowers as well. But only one flower is truly Asriel-Flowey.

Undyne remarks in her phone calls that those flowers just started to grow in that little patch Frisk just happened to fall onto, as if they had a mind of their own. Undyne thinks this idea is ridiculous.. But Frisk had a flashback of Chara’s memories when he fell into that improbable golden flower patch, a vision of when Asriel found her when she fell down. If these sentient flowers had pre-knowledge of exactly where Frisk would fall, and choose to grow in a place that would break that fall.. It certainly raises interesting questions of how closely Chara and Frisk are linked through time.

The DT experiments almost certainly began after even the sixth human fell. Otherwise, it would fail, because there wouldn't be enough human SOULs that already exist to do this experiment. Mettaton's statue was only added to the Royal Memorial last week, so that means his fame is relatively new, and him being built is what made Alphys a Royal Scientist. As a result, the experiment must ALSO be relatively new. So it's no coincidence that the flowers started to grow around our time. We happened to fall just a little bit after they were injected with DT and started to grow more.

But whether they were already linked before or not, when Frisk fell onto that first bed of flowers, he became infected by Chara’s lingering essence, which was doubly unlucky because that was the very place Toriel had buried Chara’s body.

Now comes the big question. Who are we, during the game? Is Frisk in control of himself, or is he possessed by Chara?

The former, up until LV19. I haven't gotten there in my Chara thread yet, but this is my current hypothesis-Simply because Sans' kill is the first time a kill doesn't count towards the kill count-Chara's kills don't count, only ours do. The creepy face made at Flowey could also be Chara, and Chara becomes a LOT more.. well.. active once you make it to New Home, which is RIGHT after you kill Mettaton NEO to get LV19.

However, you still have partial control, all the way until LV20, when MERCY is literally removed (though that could just be the effect of LOVE itself-And yes, it IS removed-Check the Genocide Ending yourself-During the Asgore "fight", there's no MERCY button on the HUD), and Chara kills Asgore and Flowey automatically.

Whenever Frisk makes decisions that are truly his own, and resists the easy temptations to gain power and money by killing monsters, he gains more control over his own destiny. If Frisk isn’t fully evil, he can look in the mirror in Asgore’s house, and it will tell him “Despite everything that’s happened, it’s still you.” And if Frisk is completely innocent, and achieves the True Pacifist Ending, Asriel will finally realize Frisk isn’t Chara, but someone entirely different, and apologize for the misunderstanding.

..Yes, Frisk is definitely free in all non-Genocide routes.

Chara, with her broken soul, is a creature without mercy or compassion, and only considers her own wants important, not the wellbeing of other creatures. And the more Frisk acts like her, the easier it is for her influence to affect him. Until the player finds that another force seems to be vying for control of Frisk, and directing him to take actions that the player hasn’t authorized, like deliberately wrecking all of Papyrus’ puzzles and being no fun at all.

Chara actually has NO soul. They lost it at the same time Asriel lost his. Red souls shatter upon death. That's why they're compassionless.

By the way. If Frisk and the player aren't the same, how do you know FRISK isn't the one deliberately wrecking all of Papyrus' puzzles? How Frisk punches the Mad Dummy is determined by their LV. The evidence seems to suggest that higher LVs corrupt Frisk more and more. Sans points this out as well in the Judgement Hall-LOVE is how easy it is to distance yourself and hurt others.

I'd even say all of those actions are Frisk's right up to (but not including) the Sans fight (except maybe the creepy face).

Then even creeper things start happening. Dialog starts to change, and instead of the inspiring messages we get at save points when Frisk is filled with determination, we just get the zombie-like word “Determination”, devoid of life or creativity. Or worse.. The text turns RED, and an entirely different voice speaks to us, one we don’t like at all. On a genocide route when you look into the mirror in Asgore’s house, you’re instead treated to the blood red words “It’s Me, Chara”, or whatever name you choose for The Fallen Human at the beginning of the game, since Chara is short for “Character”.

Okay, yeah, that happens at the LV19 mark. Mettaton NEO is the point of no return.

It does seem like the narrator’s outlook on life becomes darker or lighter depending on how you act. A glass described as “half-full” on an innocent playthrough becomes “half-empty” as the narrator’s pessimism grows. If you get in the habit of killing monsters, the narrator looks at Monster Kid and simply says “In my way” and “Looks like Free EXP”. The more negative Frisk acts, the more the narration changes from a positive 3rd person telling, and more into a negative 1st person narration that makes it sound like Chara is in control, instead of YOU.

As you start to do what Chara wants, they start to bond to you more. By LV19, they've gone full-on emotional. Red text indicates strong emotion, like ASGORE being in red when Toriel mentions his name, for example. They've clearly bonded with you quite well, likely because you're doing exactly what they want.

The more Frisk acts like Chara.. Striking without compassion or mercy, the more Frisk becomes like Chara, in both a metaphorical, and literal sense! This time, Flowey is right when he believes he’s talking to Chara, and she takes Frisk over, body and soul.

Yes, by the time that conversation happens, Chara has already begun to take control. But they're still going to let you control for a little while longer, and they clearly don't have FULL control just yet-Else you wouldn't be able to reset.

The process comes to a head at the end of the legendary Megalovania fight with Sans. Sans is, somehow, able to know exactly what attacks Frisk is going to throw at him, and dodge them every time. Even when Sans falls asleep, he’s still able to sense the very moment Frisk plans to attack, and dive out of the way. Until, suddenly, a second attack, one that the player did not authorize, swings at Sans, taking him completely by surprise and finally landing the fateful hit.

We don’t realize it at the time.. But that decision to attack Sans while he’s sleep.. Is the very last action that Frisk.. Ever takes.

Technically, approaching Asgore is the last action that Frisk takes. And depending on whether or not Frisk is the player, it could also be answering Chara's request to destroy the world.

When Chara’s unauthorized attack hits Sans, making him bleed very un-skeleton-like red blood, Sans isn’t actually finished. He stands up, quips at us about heading to Grillby’s, then limps offscreen, and seems to talk to a Papyrus that we thought was dead, as if he’s suddenly opened a portal to another dimension, leaving us to our fate.

You can't just SAY it's blood. You have to rule out the other possibilities. Fortunately, we already KNOW monster food does its healing effects instantly, so it can't be ketchup.. Unless it's human ketchup (ew, Sans..)

And then, and only then, do we finally hear the end of battle sound, gain a ton of Execution Points, and reach Level of Violence 20. Strangely, without the family message of “You Won!”

Chara was the one who dealt the attack. THEY won. You just gained EXP for participating in the fight.

You only get Execution Points in Undertale when you actually kill something. But Sans doesn’t die at the end of this fight. So where do we get the EXP?

..Yes he does. He most definitely DOES die at the end of the fight. We don't see him on the Overworld anymore. It does take a lot longer than it usually would, which means either Sans has some extra DT on hand, took a human SOUL like Asriel, who also took a lot of time to die..

Or this is a skeleton thing, because Papyrus ALSO takes some time to die, with his head still talking.. So does Mettaton NEO, but he's a robot, so that at least makes sense on its own without the need for further explanation.

We have no chance to spare Asgore, Chara destroys him without hesitation.

And, most heartbreakingly, not only does Chara destroy Asriel, she makes an example out of him, slashing his flowery form over, and over again, until every last trace of him is purged from existence. Until there’s nothing left of him at all.

Clearly Chara has grown to hate Asriel most of all. It seems as if this is some kind of vengeance. And I think I know EXACTLY what this is revenge for. It's for ruining the plan, and getting Chara killed.

Remember whose human soul is still inside Asriel? CHARA’S. Flowey wasn’t kidding when he said that Chara had a stolen soul after killing Toriel.. She was in the process of stealing Frisk’s soul, bit by bit, having already lost her own earlier on.

Stolen means it's already stolen. Completely. So that just can't be right. Flowey was just getting Frisk and Chara mixed up, just like he did in Pacifist. It's easy to do that when Chara's essence also exists within Frisk.

When Chara destroys Flowey.. She hacks her own original soul to pieces! Karma is a more militant form of The Golden Rule, which says that if you do bad things to others, bad things WILL happen to you. It’s a pure moment of poetic horror, then, when the last victim of Chara’s mindless murder spree is herself!

Yet, they still exist to destroy the world. The last victims of Chara are:

Alphys, Bratty, Catty, Burgerpants, Gerson, Monster Kid...

Traditionally, when a player enters the name of a character at the start of an Roleplaying Game, it’s understood that this Character will be the one they control during that game. That essential, this Character is their own avatar in the game.

But Undertale turns this expectation on its head, because no matter what name you imput, you’ll always be controlling Frisk. The name of “The Fallen Human” you entered at the start of Undertale is instead the name given to CHARA.

And we have unwittingly given “Chara” **OUR OWN NAME**!

Actually, we aren't necessarily supposed to use our own name:https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/643945593308618752

"I mean, if you can't think of anything else..."-Toby Fox

Once Chara stabs Sans, Sans realizes that Frisk gone now, and there’s no longer anyone left to save. So he leaves us, Chara, to our fate. And once Asgore and Flowey fall.. There’s only one more person left in the game for Chara to destroy.

We're not Chara.

So Chara finally reveals herself, breaks the Fourth Wall, and looks out from the screen directly at US, The Player. The one who gave her their own name. And after a charming, progressively more creepy conversation, she smiles, says the two of you are going to be together FOREVER.. Then stabs *YOU* right through the computer screen!

No, that's them destroying the world. We're actually the only survivors (besides Chara)

After this, there’s only one way to play the game again. And that’s to make your arraignment with Chara official.. Submit to her control and beg her to restore this world.. And give her your own, Player’s, soul.

Remember when I showed that this was FRISK'S soul? We just happen to be controlling it, most likely because we ARE Frisk, but possibly because we're some otherworldly being like in Deltarune. But Frisk has a SOUL, and we are controlling it. That's the SOUL Chara takes to possess Frisk in a Soulless Pacifist. Remember that?

Our determination is now her determination. Our soul is now her stolen soul. And no matter what we do from then on, no matter how many times we play the game… this transaction can never be undone. Chara is the one saving, and the one who decides how the story ends. Her reflection is the one we see in the water, and this transaction might even carry over to the realm of Deltarune beyond.

It doesn't. Deltarune has only one ending, and Kris is not Frisk. We decide what path to take at first, but Chara reveals their control at the last moment, finally having reached the Surface. I have a hypothesis on that one as well.. Chara could give the humans the same fate as they gave Flowey.. Or perhaps even worse..

And we decide what happens to her, or whether she finds redemption or not.

And this is also why everyone feels such a powerful connection to Asriel Dreemur.

Asriel doesn’t just have any human soul within in him. He has Chara’s soul. OUR soul. And when we decide his fate, we also decide our own.

If we save Asriel, we save ourselves, by saving him.

And if we destroy him, we are the one who is lost.

That fails to account for all of the Netural Endings. And why isn't Chara reformed in a Soulless Pacifist? We saved Asriel again that way, after all..

Flowey presumes we've already reset hundreds of times when we reopen the game, even though we've shown no intention of resetting the game:We could very well be trying to continue. He also calls us Chara. But.. if we showed no intention of resetting, then what is giving Flowey the impression that we are? ..It can only be Chara.