Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170812010813

2) But that's hardly a theory. Just the sole fact it is called a "whole" game seems to imply it is Undertale. And then of course we have the logo similarity. Black, white, and a red dot in the middle of the white.

3) I didn't say it was a good thing. It is a horrible thing, but it has some logic. Chara's actions weren't irrational. I don't consider Chara evil for doing this, as they had a logical reason, and were loving before dying.

3.3) Okie. But you didn't convince me. Chara's name is on the save file, so it is theirs. We do share it with them, but the saves most likely got connected to Chara instead of Frisk. God knows why. Maybe because Chara was the older one.

3.5) Actually, I always thought that Chara destroyed the entire reality, because why would you destroy the planet, but leave everything else intact? The universe has a total energy of 4*10^69. If 10^234 was supposed to destroy it, then we get 10^-165. Multiply that by the 10 million and you get 10^-158.

Imagine turning a wheel with a circumference of 1 meter once, with a force that an object weighing one kilogram exerts on another object. That's one joule of work. Now imagine 10 kilograms, but only for 1/10 of a second. Same work, quite the punch. I don't know what that would do to Sans, but 10^-158 jouls is NOT enough to cause his insides to rip. Unless you say that he has only one HP, and that all values are always rounded up, which would put your attack at exactly 1 HP of damage worth. Still, 10^-165 is so tiny it's better to say that Chara didn't destroy the world. Unless they destroyed 10^xxx of parallel universes too. So uh, if you agree with me that what Chara did was just symbolic, or that they killed the game, not the world, then we can close this point.

3.6) I'd argue that they and Frisk can only add to the poll of options from which the player chooses. They can't remove anything from it.

3.7) Yeah, it is a stolen soul, but Flowey probably believes that its previous owner is now dead or something. He speaks to us as if he and Chara were alone again.

4) Okay. Whatever you say. Just don't say that he blinded Frisk. This might well be evidence that he can mess directly with the player. Since that's not the first time he tried hiding something from us; something that Frisk would clearly be able to see.

4.1) What if this IS evidence of duplication? I mean, why WOULD Sans constantly teleport his station around the entire underground? And not just for us, but for Papyrus and Undyne too? What if the two of them decided to visit different areas? Then what would he do? Stay in one place, and then travel back in time with his station to place it at the second location?

You know, I've read a theory about the real world today that's quite similar to this. It says that all electrons are really the same one, and that multiple electrons exist only because this one electron constantly travels through time to visit multiple locations at the same time.

I rejected that theory, and I reject this one too. Why should we abolish new concepts (duplication), at the cost of making our current theory (teleportation only) even more complicated? To me it still sounds like duplication is the simpler explanation here.

4.2) Yes, Flowey kills Asgore to toy with you. But he destroyed the soul so that you wouldn't leave, so that he could continue to play with you. As you said, we never told anyone we wanted to stay, certainly not Flowey, so everyone, including Undyne, Papyrus, Alphys, and even Asgore firstly assumed that you simply want to go home. Toriel too (she even tried to force us to stay). Why wouldn't they? It's the most logical explanation for our actions. Even Sans tries to convince us to stay, and at the end of every neutral run, you get a call where those that are alive talk to you, assuming you really left. Everyone assumes you want to leave. Literally everyone. If you wanted to stay, you wouldn't play the game. We all played the game, and therefore it looked like we wanted to leave. We never told anyone "I won't kill Asgore, I will befriend him," since we never had that option to begin with. And when Flowey transforms into Asriel, he still says that he's not ready for this to end. He doesn't want to stop playing. Even if he does know that we can leave together that time, since the barrier will break, he either doesn't fully believe it, or believes he can't return with everyone else. Also remember he thinks we're Chara during his fight. He doesn't want that to end too.

4.3) Okay, look, I'll put it simply. Flowey references the player in New Home, while talking to Frisk. Therefore, the player is not Frisk. He logically can't be both. The player only carriers out Frisk's actions, that Frisk themselves have decided to take. What we see isn't what Frisk sees. Otherwise Undertale would be a first person game.

4.6) Undyne first explains the basis of a green attack, and if you fail, she explains that she gave you a spear to block those attacks, and when you fail again, she says that she just wanted to make the fight more fair that way. It is a plot hole.

4.10) But couldn't they just figure out that once a monster absorbs 6 human souls, he acquires enough power to absorb the souls of all monsters, which makes it possible for him to shatter the barrier?

4.11) What healing are you talking about? And no, we don't need this. The soul always staying inside the body is a sufficient explanation for everything. Just because the soul is the only thing we see in the battle interface doesn't mean Frisk is not there too. It was done like that to simplify the animation. And also to make it interesting.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">4.13) You're trying to explain something that needs no explanation. The HUD looks like that because it skews reality so that we would get a more pleasant experience out of it. It doesn't actually happen like that, nor does it happen in some other dimension. For Frisk and everybody else, there is no interface. It is meant for us and us only. And I'm saying that Frisk doesn't see it, because of what I wrote in 4.3. Why would you ever think that the interface can be seen by others? Perhaps the save files can, but not in such boxy way. And Sans attacking outside his turn? Isn't that still just a normal fight? What if him placing the bones on the buttons is also symbolic, showing that he constantly attacks us outside his own turn? As is Asgore breaking the button? Anything you throw at me I can say the HUD skewed, and I can explain it through a normal "overworld" way.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">5) We don't exist as an entity in Undertale, but we aren't Frisk, since the game does reference us through the 4-wall jinks. At those times it doesn't speak about Chara, or Frisk. It speaks about someone completely different. Meaning that if Frisk is ever not referenced as the player, they were never. So they can't be the player. The only reasonable explanation is that we're carrying out Frisk's actions. But when it comes to an in-game explanation, Frisk of course does it all by themselves, since we don't exist as an entity in the game. If the game references us, then our only influence over the game is that we're permitting the story to carry out. As for the story itself, we aren't inside it.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Your theory would make sense from our point of view, but what about the in-game view? In there, Frisk must be a mindless zombie, if somene else is controlling them. If you don't let them act without your permission, then they can never not be you. So how then does your explanation ensure that Frisk is still Frisk, and not just your toy? It seems like a contradiction. Either you're in control, or they are. If they are in the control, then the player is just carrying out the story, by playing the game. If you are in control of Frisk, then who really is Frisk? Are they still themselves?