Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170731144425

TheHumanAmbassador wrote:

Tsskyx wrote: 1) Asgore has high stats. And he did want to fight the first few humans. Maybe he kept telling himself that he's doing the right thing, or something to keep going forward. He didn't declare a war for nothing.

2) Afaik there's only one type of determination, and it's already been ruled out

3) Undyne doesn't know Toriel.

4) Maybe they just lost the stuff by an accident. We'll never know. I mean, this is a canon plot hole, not a hole in some wild theory of ours, so it's better if we don't think about it at all.

6) Absolutely correct. We didn't see their dominant trait. But we have some hints towards what that trait might be (that is, being yourself), and also all evidence is pointing out towards the fact that DT is yellow. Those save points are a manifestation of our determination after all. That's canon.

And for fuck sake I already pointed out like a hundred times that all humans had the same control over the timeline. Get over that fact.

And the souls in Omega Flowey had a power to rebel, just like Asriel's soul could in the fused soul. But they didn't. They had to be reminded of their true selves first. Determination is a power to resolve, to change fate, not to remind someone of their true selves. Anyone with some endurance would be able to convince those souls to stop attacking them and attack Flowey instead.

999) No, no frequencies. Stop that. That's not canon in the slightest. Color doesn't dictate the trait, the trait dictates the color. 1)Toriel reveals he didn't. He only declared war in a fit of rage, but by the time Asgore killed human #2 (We're counting Chara), he no longer wanted to do this. If he really wanted to free his kind, he could have crossed the barrier after collecting that ONE SOUL, taken six from the humans, and then freed everyone. But instead, he left everyone in despair, because he would rather wait, hoping another human never arrives.

2)Not if we say it's the DOMINANT trait that shows, as evidenced by Frisk's kindness not making their SOUL green. All humans have determination, just not ENOUGH determination.

3)2091? We don't know what year Undertale takes place, for all we know, it happens in 3000.

4)Except the plot hole can be explained if the kids just died where their stuff was found! (The yellow human dying in the dump, obviously.) It's a very simple explanation! It's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with the theory. If we want to go meta, their stuff being found there would be a hint that they died there. But, I'm not really one to take that route. There's no evidence any human fought Asgore. Asgore knowing about the ability to SAVE could come from the same source he figured out about the button commands from. He does destroy your MERCY, after all.

6)We also have hints the trait is determination-Only we were determined enough to survive the Underground. It took US to free the six human SOULS from Flowey. It took US to free the monsters from Asriel's control! The six human SOULS played no part, and instead just gave Asriel a further boost of power! Because they were under control by Asriel.

And I've pointed out how flawed that assumption was. That's what a lot of my other points were about. StrongFish91 not proving Undyne hasn't met other humans. Asgore knowing about SAVING coming from the same source of him knowing that MERCY is a physical button, capable of being destroyed. That there is no reasonable explanation why those humans would have died to Asgore, or before Asgore. Well, there is, the problem lies in as to why they STAYED dead. They would have had literal Save Scumming! There's the SOUL of pereservearance, who keeps going and eventually wins, even when they feel trapped! There's the SOUL of patience, who waits until the perfect oppertunity comes! Combine that with determination, and they could beat Asgore just like Frisk- Even if takes a lot of tries to do so.

It was the ASRIEL fight that you had to remind the MONSTERS of their true selves. In the Omega Flowey fight, all you had to do was call out to the HUMANS for help! Giving them the POWER to help!

Even after you saved the monsters in the Asriel fight this way, there was no way for them to take control of Asriel. And they knew their true selves. What DIDN'T they have? Determination. (Except maybe Undyne. But she didn't have NEARLY enough.) Instead, you needed to reach out to Asriel himself.

999)Yes, the trait dictates the color. But HOW does it dictate the color? What process does it go through to convert a trait into the ccolor it glows? THAT'S what this aims to explain. And that's the only self-consistent way that actually makes sense. Where are those waves of lights even coming from in the first place? The traits themselves. Sans and Papyrus being related to Gaster in any way whatsoever (other than the fact that Gaster kind of looks like a skeleton) is also not "canon". I wrote a long reply to this reply of yours, but it disappeared :C

So here's my attempt #2:

1) Asgore had to fight, for the hope of his people. He was doing it for the entire monsterkind. That's why he was so strong for the most time. No doubt he gave up when we came though.

2) Humans can have varying levels of determination. That is true. But just acknowledging the fact that all humans had the ability to SAVE/LOAD/RESET makes the "red soul being the soul of determination" theory rather redundant (I'll go into more detail below).

3) So Toriel was alone for a thousand years? Geez, you really can push it just to prove me wrong. But still, I'll take Sans's word for it and say it was a century.

4) Yeah, well then they would have to die at two places, don't you think? None of the items except for the yellow and purple gear is found together. There might be many reasons why they have abandoned their items. Look at the underline AU for example. It shows quite a few of them.

4.1) Well WHAT is the source of Asgore's knowledge about the HUD then? If not the previous kids, then what? You could say that since there's a link between Sans and Alphys, that Alphys might have shared Sans's knowledge with Asgore, but honestly, I don't think Sans would have told Alphys THAT much. And besides, we don't even know how much Sans really knows in the first place. And also, the breaking of the MERCY button is purely meta (continue at 4.2).

4.2) We can't assume that everything that's "meta" in the game is actually a part of the story itself. Otherwise we would end up with a total mess (like Frisk naming Chara, as if they are the player, not us). You need to know the fine line. The Omega Flowey battle is really on the edge, going as far as portaing Toby's face in it, but really, you have to understand that that's how Toby expressed himself. The story can either be normal and well-established, or we can make the HUD a thing in the Undertale universe and then settle with something like Glitchtale as the canon continuation of the storyline. Yuck.

(6) 5) Welp. If you say so. But I say that we simply had to make the souls remember. They already had DT in them (Alphys extracted it, remember, so they must have had some), and so they could rebel at any time. But at some point they chose to give up their powers. Like Chara did at their deathbed. If Chara had a red soul (red coffin), then they must have had the same powers as Frisk according to you, and THEY gave up this power. The only way to continue was to lose. The other humans experienced something similar too. They've lost and came back, and lost and came back, and lost and came back, and lost and gave up. The only way to break free from this loop of losing torture was to lose. To give up. They just couldn't fight Asgore. Just because we can defeat every monster in the game (even Sans) doesn't mean the other humans could too. Also, if we assume that all humans had the same powers as Frisk/Chara (and they did as I've already pointed out before), then what would assigning DT as the red trait be good for? We already do know that humans can have varying levels of DT, but without any proof that this assignment actually influenced something, we can't assume anything. I've successfully ruled out the hypothesis Frisk's DT is greater than the DT of the other kids, and proved the hypothesis that they all had an access to the same powers, and showed that they just needed some mental reminding at the very least. Ergo, I've ruled out the need for the red DT soul theory. You can still say it's true, but it won't make a difference.

(999) 6) Ugh, why are you doing this? There's no correlation between the colors. The truth is, Toby is a simple but clever person. Remember, "what would Toby do". Would he create complex links, or just build up from meta to story?

Stop moving - cold - cyan.

Move - hot - orange.

Blue attack - made to deceive the player - we think it's the cyan one, but then our soul turns blue - the reason this color is another shade of cyan is because Toby tricked us.

Muffet - purple theme - purple.

Alphys - yellow theme - yellow.

The soul - heart - blood - red.

Last remaining color: Green. Last remaining monster/attack type: Undyne. Green = Undyne.

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That's how the colors were made.