Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190617222636/@comment-32182236-20190705201016

At this point it seems like both an assumption to say that The Fountain was built before Chara arrived, and to say that Chara had a few days to visit Gaster before he died, providing him just enough time to make his blueprints. It hinges on whether "The End of 201X" means somewhere in December 2019, or December 31st 2019, and that's information we don't have.

It's a calendar from the end of 201X. Each month is displayed as a single page. Why would it be of a single day? The specific date that Chara came was likely marked on the calendar.

If you argue monster calendars are different in this regard, why can't they also be different regarding when the "end" of a year is? Either way, you have to take an assumption.

Mine probably is wrong somewhere too. I'm hoping we both learn what the true one is. As I said before, I'm far better at breaking theories than making them. If I can eliminate all the theories but the true one then, then the one theory remaining, will be self-evidently true.

But we can't assume that we found it. Not until we thoroughly test it, like I'm attempting to do with yours, and search as far as we can for alternatives. And when dealing with scientific theories, even things that many would call nitpicking is enough to eliminate a possibility from being the Truth.

The question is something savy to knowledge of storytelling tropes: We're supposed to learn something important by knowing when Chara arrived in New Home, and learn something from it. It's too well a hidden item not to have significance, and trying to circle around it or minimize it seems perilous to me.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that numerologists and other psuedoscientists use. You're falling back into the "Toby does not play dice" trap.

Perhaps the curtain colors aren't enough to draw conclusions on their own, but when added to a long list of other times Purple or Magenta appeared in FNAF, one can assume that this detail was choosen deliberately for a purpose.

Or Purple is just a common color in the FNAF universe.

So while randomly encountering Blue Curtains without any other context might not make the color important, if the detail matches other patterns it's irresponsible to ignore them.

Well perhaps the color might indicate the kind of style that the designers of the curtains (in-universe) would lead to... But that's as far as it takes us.

Again, Chara wouldn't have a striped t-shirt if she fell in the Distant Past. You're been pushing for the possiblity that Chara met Gaster before he died in 201X, after all. So you've going to have to pick era for Chara to be from.

When I say 201X, I mean the monster year, not the human year. Human years don't end in "X".

Though perhaps I should come up with twelve original months, to completely distinguish it from the human calendar, so that they may never be confused again?

Sol-June Ignus-July Litna-August Sema-September Atumna-October Festia-November Luna-December Frigus-January Amos-Feburary Sema-March Germina-April Verma-May

...If you have a better set of names, you can present them. And if you can remember that when I say Chara fell in 201X, I strictly mean what the monsters call 201X, we may not even need to do this. If I use these fictional months... You'll know I mean specifically the skewed monster calendar. After all, if I wanted to talk about the human months, I'd use the human names, right?

So, to restate my case.. How do we know that Luna is the last month of the year, when we already have evidence that Chara fell a long time ago, as the monsters in New Home state, and don't find ourselves in the far future as Frisk, or any futuristic material by humans? Why can't it be Verma? And if it is the last month, nothing's preventing Chara from falling on Luna 15, 201X, Gaster dying in Luna 24, 201X, and Chara dying the following Spring-Perhaps in the month of Germina?

Each of the humans that fell brought successively more modern material. Chara brought a Dagger that is now worn. The human of patience has simply a faded ribbon. The human of justice, likely the last one before Frisk, has an empty gun-At this point, it was closer to modern day.

It would make most sense for the eight humans to fall alongside a uniform distribution.. Though one could argue that the gap between the seventh and eighth human should be noticably larger than the last few before it, since Toriel finds it worth mentioning that Frisk was the first human to fall in a long time.

So it wasn't just a long time when Chara fell. It was a long time when the previous human fell-And there were five more between that human and Chara! Chara must have fell a very long time ago!

And yet, we find ourselves in the same era as 201X would imply if the human monster matched the monster calendar. As if the time between Chara and Frisk was short. We'd probably be in 21XX already... And yet, the Surface is in no way futuristic.

So December 2019 is not the same as Luna 201X.

Again, Chara wouldn't have a striped t-shirt if she fell in the Distant Past. You're been pushing for the possiblity that Chara met Gaster before he died in 201X, after all. So you've going to have to pick era for Chara to be from.

As I said-201X on the monster calendar. This applies both to Gaster AND Chara. Gaster died in the Distant Past, and so did Chara. The monsters call it 201X... Probably calling the current era 23XX, or 24XX.

Also, I see a striped long-sleeve shirt. What gives you the impression that it's a modern t-shirt?

Modern Era seems to have a lot more evidence to me. Especially if Chara and Asriel made home movies together on a camcorder.

Tape 1 makes it clear this camcorder was used by Toriel and Asgore when they were having Asriel as a kid.

This was before Chara fell. Which means Chara didn't bring it down, and Asriel was the one to show them how it worked. It came from the monsters. And as we know, Gaster was a brilliant scientist. I'd say brilliant enough to propel the monsters far ahead of humans. He had centuries of work. Imagine how much a brilliant scientist could do in centuries? Gaster probably wouldn't have fallen into the "God does not play dice" trap, so imagine everything great about Einstien... And give him a few centuries of study.

Gerson was alive when the war happened. Monsters have longer lifespans than humans-Likely because they're made of magic, and thus bound not by biological limitations, but magical ones.

Even if Gaster was a human, we still know his brilliance was irreplacable, and he at least knew of Determination. And in fact, if he was a human before Chara, then he could have the power to save and load, depending on what trait his soul was. So he could have arbitrarily increased his lifespan by abusing this power.. And used his knowledge of the future to help him make inventions, far earlier than he should be able to. So he still could have had centuries of study.

I'm well aware that Einstein was wrong about Quantum Mechanics when he said "God does not play dice". And perhaps his faith clouded his judgement in this case.

That's exactly what I think happened. And this is the "corruption" I spoke of. We're all prone to it sometimes.. We just need to learn to spot it.

Still, Einstein made many discoveries during his lifetime. Obsessing about one of his failures doesn't seem fair when surveying his lifetime of work, and the techniques he employed. Techniques he encouraged other scientists to use, so that Science might continue to accelerate smoothly after his death.

Many of his techniques were great. And thinking of new possibilties is great-We just need to see how plausible they are given the evidence. And if they lead to contradictions, we have to eliminate them. I await the time that I reach the special finale, where I'll lay down exactly where your model goes wrong, when assuming all of it to be true. But I can't do that until I properly understand all of your case.

Einstein was a scientist, first and foremost. And he earned all of his fame the hard way, starting from a humble beginning. Casually dismissing the life's work of one of the greatest scientists in history seems irresponsible to me. Especially since I've found that his techniques work, and use them regularly.

I just don't want you to use them as if they're infallible, or as if HE'S infallible. Because it looks to me as blind devotion... The very thing that you warned against.

The times they worked were the times you used the right ones. The ones that say no evidence can be contradicted. If Rose Quartz has the power level of a Diamond, it only makes sense that she's not just a Quartz, but a Diamond, or at least, well.. actually has the power of a Diamond.

Einstein had trouble in school in his teens, because he experience that 'the spirit of learning and creative thought was lost in strict rote learning'

Strict learning. No discovery whatsoever... And that's something schools are still lacking in.

Creative thought is more than just strict, rote, "imagination". And imagining what makes a good story is the latter. That's where mythology comes from.

No, Ambassador. Imagination in science is not "making things up" as you say. It's about creatively searching for unknown causes for observations.

You're thinking of Discovery.

The theory was that celestial objects, being divine, had to travel in perfect circles, always. Yet this wasn't borne out by the observations of planetary orbits.

And where did they get the idea that they had to be divine, or that circles were connected to divinity in the first place? That's right-Imagination.

They said that the planets didn't just travel on a single circle.. they were traveling on OTHER circles that -themselves- were traveling on the main orbit circle! This way, the traditional belief of perfect circular motion could still be celebrated and respected, by using the same model and just making it more complex with another layer. The new observations were still off by a little, but they were much closer, and that was enough for most astronomers of the day ^_^

Eventually, the number of epicycles became insanely high. And it still was quite off. For one, what are the other circles? Why don't we see them?

Right-brained thinkers blashphemously threw out the respected theory of Perfect Circular Motion entirely, and made perfect models of planetary motion by using Elliptical Orbits.

Exactly. Their model didn't have these flaws. Instead of just being close enough, it was perfect according to the evidence. Based on that accord, and it requiring less assumptions, it is the better one.

I don't just ask why Tobyfox would do something. I ask why any competent artist would do something strange and particular.

The fallacy is still a fallacy. I could still use that logic to ask "Why would any competent God do something strange and particular"? And remember, in this hypothetical, we don't know anything about God, other than the fact that he created the universe. So things like the Evil God Challenge are still viable, and it'd be a bad idea to claim the Abrahamic God was proven to exist.

If we know we're dealing with a detailed mystery, the little details aren't just filler, they're vital evidence.

But we don't know that we're dealing with a detailed mystery. Also, I disagree with your premise-The little details CAN be filler. In fact, if I made a mystery, I'd put in such filler to both be more realistic... And to encourage rational analysis. You'd fail to solve my mystery... Because you'd be too busy trying to find out why I picked Final Fantasy of all games for a gamer character to be playing on-screen, and start looking for parallels to Final Fantasy... When I just picked a game that made sense for such a character to play.

Why would I Death Blow my theory that a mad scientist was putting human souls into robots, when no evidence opposed it, and I found more details that confirmed this assumption with every additional FNAF book and game that came out since then?

Because just like the epicycles, it wasn't a perfect model. You said so yourself. ...Wait, there wasn't evidence against it? I thought you implied there was when you said it wasn't a perfect model.

Especially since minds that consider themselves smarter than Albert Einstein are on the record as calling FNAF's story non-sensical trash, even after I published "The Color Brothers".

I said there was a contradiction in the rules established by the story, and pointed it out. And I said myself I would fail to make relativity-Only succeed in proving Newtonian physics wrong. He did more than I ever could.. He's just not infallible. Neither am I... or you. And we shouldn't quote him as if he was. Remember, Argument From Authority is a logical fallacy.

Again, we can't put our personal biases ahead of finding the truth. Not if we want to call ourselves Scientists.

Which is why we need to actually answer these arguments. And look at strictly the evidence.

Biases about what Toby Fox was thinking... Not welcome. We have to assume Death of The Author-It's our only way of objectively looking at the story.

But isn't brainstorming for The Coolest Thing That Could Happen a legitimate tool for finding where to look?

No. My entire argument is that it's a not a valid tool. It's just like rolling dice and deciding that way.

Just like how they did with FNAF and The Color Brothers, years ago.

Believe it or not, I think The Color Brothers and The Afton Family Horcruxes is the closest you can get to a coherent explanation of FNAF. I've argued this before in response to Hopper. ...But let's not get into the details here.

I cover The Dark Rose theory first, that Rose was secretly a gem-energy vampire, and had stolen Pink Diamond's power, because it was the theory that came first. But when I took this dark interpretation.. and compared it to the tone of the Steven Universe up to that point, it clashed. Heavily. And didn't seem to fit the direction the show wanted to go.

For one, there was no evidence that gem-energy vampires existed in the first place... Second, Pink Diamond apparently "left", while also turning mad... And yet no records of her losing her power. Third, it was said that only a Diamond could shatter a Diamond.

So applying Occam's Razor actually gives us the same conclusion here.

So I used Imagination again, searching for a better story. And came up with the model that perhaps Pink Diamond actually granted her power to Rose to found The Crystal Gems, as an act of redemption.

That is indeed a better model... But of course there's also the idea that Rose Quartz IS Pink Diamond.. We know that gems can transform, and while they wouldn't be able to change the shape of their core, rose quartz and pink diamonds are cut the exact same way... So she wouldn't NEED to change her core, or her shape.

An assumption that can't always be made, and is downright dangerous when dealing with fakers like Shyamalan and Uwe Boll.

Which exactly why you should never make it. Seriously. We shouldn't assume that there's a hidden story, let alone a powerful hidden one.

However, I have a spirit that's both Artistic enough to search for greater meaning in all things around me.

And that's a flaw. That's what lead to alchemy.

I believe good artsists create art for a reason, and have a message they want to tell. And this is what I search for.

A dangerous assumption.

Which is why I defended Steven Universe as an artistic masterwork, even when so much of the fandom was ready to throw it away as random nonsense.

Yes, Steven Universe is pretty good with its story.

Theorists aren't politicians. We're supposed to find the real truth of things, not what the majority votes it to be.

Which is why we use evidence. I don't say that Sans isn't Ness because "who else thinks so?"-That's Argumentum Ad Populum. A fallacy.