Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20180714023105

"Case in point: kindness to yourself is selfishness"

But there's no selfishness. All we see, is that green gives you a shield. If blue makes you jump around (as per the blue flag description), if yellow gives you a gun (as per the yellow flag description - sort of), then you can see it's about the trait and you, not about the trait and the monster casting it. So, if green gives you a shield, then that's kindness. And what is kindness? Care and concern. No other mode relies so much on protection of the soul as this one. That's it. Besides, it's not really selfishness, if we're not the ones casting the spell, is it not?

So, would you rather blindly stick to the absolute meaning of the trait, or rather try to connect it with its respective mode?

"Citation here? You're making a claim about Toby without any proof."

Get the art book, it's all in there, and much more.

"So yeah, it does make sense. Alphys explicitly mentioned blueprints-She used a machine-Not just basic syringes-That was just to get it out of the machine."

But she didn't imbue the flower with the machine, she imbued it with the DT. Utilize your IQ for once, sheesh.

"note that Asgore doesn't have hope for the duration of his time as king after declaring war"

He has hope that they will get out of there one day. That's what led him to declare the war after all. This is your own logic used against your argument.

"All it says was the humans attacked."

Maybe they attacked first back then too, provoked the monster to defend itself, which would raise the question, how did the monster know that human souls are strong? Sure, they persist, but that may not mean anything. There's a lot of implied knowledge floating about. Another example, how did they know that nearly all of monsterkind equals to one human soul?

"Sometimes, subtly implying it didn't happen does better of a job."

Never assume a conspiracy. Because conspiracies are a slippery slope, that end in the belief that the world is a hologram and that the world's govenments are trying to hide it.

"Only about 1/7th of the population would have this as, say, part of their dominant personality."

Perseverance is their dominant personality. Let's not change the definitions. And I think this refers only to taking as many notes as absolutely necessary. It doesn't crave for more, just for enough to get the basics over with. Basics - survival, in our case. (Funny, how this aligns itself with the chakra definition of red, which is all about survival; we've come a full circle here.)

"Ours does too. All these laws are based strictly on mathematics."

It's more obvious with Undertale. Our laws are based on precise math, yes, but ever seen a game that would utilize something like that? Most games are based on if-else conditions, that often make no sense in the real world. Same here. Take the turns, for example. Why must everything be simultaneous, except for this? And why does the condition apply for humans vs. monsters only? (from what the monsters can see)

Seems awfully specific and nonsensical for any subtle universal mathematical rule, don't you think? It's more like those retro Pokemon games.

"No. And I don't recall any of the characters specifically speaking of turns in that series."

So, does that mean the UT world IS a simulation then? After all, you've outlined the difference between it and the Pokemon world so nicely.

"Well, maybe in the same way this world might be simulated."

As I said, it's much more obvious in their world, which works precisely as a game, due to these rules being canon. So again, why does no monster question this? The HUD is a thing only for us, isn't that right? And don't you believe many of those monsters are meeting a human for the first time in their lives?

"Besides, the monsters seem to know that you're a human."

Some do, but not all. Which makes no sense. If they knew you are a human from these weird interactions, why don't they address that ever after? There is no hint any of them learned you're a human after fighting you once.

"No, the simpler explanation is to take the hints the game gave us, use those quotes and the image of the surface, and take them to their natural conclusion."

That's not an explanation, that's a method. And we all tried this already. It got us nowhere.

"Yes, that too."

Here you go, this guy knows what's up: https://steamcommunity.com/id/darkslayer666/recommended/391540/

Undertale is a game where you as a player are responsible for the things you do. Its main idea is to take the meta and make it canon. That's what it's all about. That's why there are multiple routes also. The game is hiding secrets for the sake of hiding secrets. Any attempts to piece together a consistent story are futile. Have we ever gotten a consistent explanation for why the monsters are trying to destroy our soul if they actually want to capture it? Such a critical plot hole, so much for a consistent story, eh?

The more I look at it, the more I see the story is this complicated not because Toby wished so, but because we're trying to put sense into a story that makes no sense.

"As does Undertale."

Well, it's not fair to compare those two in the first place. Undertale works as a game and nothing but a game.

"I don't recall them stopping completely. Though their theories did start becoming less and less common."

They said that everyone has settled on their own head canons, including them.

"That they did say so?"

That there's plenty of evidence that it's a game, despite no one ever stating so.

"Well, the first step is actually going by the style of using canon rather than fanon."

We all interpret the canon differently.

"Once again, FIGHTing is the only option with an interactive component. The lighter color could be inidcative of this "mini-game.""

I disagree. ACT also presents a fun minigame, where you have to guess the monster's needs. I'd rather stick to the motto of this game, that fighting is not necessary.

"The Genocide Ending? It's the only irreversable one."

Every ending is reversable. The genocide is the only one that permanently alters the game in some way, but you can get out of it. The true ending is the pacifist ending. Everyone is pleading you to go for it, including Toby himself, with that thing I just mentioned, that nobody has to die.

"No, all of the endings are canon in their own way. Remember, player choice is canon. The canon ending is whatever ending you get."

Yes. But Frisk has their own personality. Their own preferences. And they prefer the pacifist ending, by the looks of it. We've been over this already. They cannot be just a representation of us. If they were, we could assign them a name ourselves.

"Flowey does a better job, though."

Flowey had no choice, though. He's seen everything and couldn't quit. The player stereotype however is always chasing after greater stats. It doesn't care about having fun, unlike Flowey, it merely wants to finish the game as a challenge and then move on. Unlike Flowey. This is what Chara represents.

"So, what's the natural conclusion of this? Hmm.. what about that Chara ISN'T the player stereotype?"

I mean, destroying the world, leaving it, their main goal was to get maximum LV. Then, they could move on. And actually, I think it does make sense. Undertale is not a game designed to keep you in, Undertale has an ending. What do you do when you win such a game, when you get the maximum LV possible? You quit, uninstall and move on to other games.

"Walking past Papyrus' puzzles? Or is that Chara?"

Yes, that's Chara. Frisk's movements are defined by our input.

"our SOUL is stuck in the box"

Yes, another strange phenomena, the box.

"That there IS a surface."

The surface is just an animation. If we can't play it, it's not real. That's the meta logic.

"I need not fulfill the meta approach that expands beyond what the game hints at, or flat-out contradicts the game. As for the others, I hadn't contradicted the game's canon."

You haven't gone full meta alchymist yet. We can still say that Frisk can't jump down a bridge even if they wanted to because something's literally holding them back, some sort of an invisible barrier. Conversely, we can explain everything meta using the overworld's continuous rules, and say that there's no box, no turns, no slashes, et cetera.

''"Absolutely every AU ever?" "But they're not meant to follow canon, unlike theories."''

Oh please don't tell me you've never seen a fanfiction that would be based on a theory. Underline for example?

"That only tells us the game flags. It won't tell you how determination works, for example."

Technically, there's no determination. There's only ever the question, is there an HUD, or not?

"How is that an AU again?"

You tell me. These days, everything is called an AU, apparently.

"We should be able to attack twice, and monsters should as well."

The turns are a loose representation of that. Eventually, one person will stop attacking and another one will begin. That's how turns are defined. It's not about the number of attacks, it's about where they begin and where they end.

"you specifically said Toby's focus was not on the story, which is a claim on its own"

But I did look at his tweets. He spoke of a game inspiring him to make LV a bad thing. Him deciding not to make it mandatory to kill Toriel leading him to realize what he wants his game to be all about (or maybe that was in the art book, I don't remember). But never once did he say anything about the story overall. For him, the meta concepts is what was his passion. Not the lore.

So tell me, why do YOU think that it was the lore? This is my hypothesis. Disprove it, or gather evidence for your own hypothesis first. Do not tell me to go prove it.

"Or an alternate universe."

The HUD is acting like a construct of some sort. It's not universal, unlike magic, It messes with reality itself at the absolute basics, unlike magic (by which I mean, magic isn't creating inexplicable logical constraints that no one is questioning for some reason). It appears too surreal to be real, if you know what I mean. Magic is also imposing new rules, but at least the reality stays preserved with it. The HUD completely rearranges reality.

"Doesn't mean you can't dodge a single time ever."

No one ever runs away either. Weird. Either they're stupid, or it's the HUD doing this. And if it's the latter, it kinda implies that Sans somehow found a way to kinda break free from the HUD. At least so that he will survive.

"And why wouldn't they be able to move fast enough to dodge?"

The armor?

"So.. Why is he still using strong and hard-to dodge fire attacks?"

Because he's strong.

"He'd clearly be giving himself away"

What does that mean?

"Contradicts the mechanic of us being able to move the box, and this being our way of attacking, along with his speech about how if it's always his turn, we can't attack."

Maybe we could break the rule only because he broke it too. He tried to be clever, so the HUD was too.

"It's just that you can't solve the WHOLE puzzle."

YES. So stop claiming that there is some hidden story already.

"It needs to fit in with what Sans is doing. The WHOLE thing. Oh, and Asgore too."

Tough luck.

"The same can be said about saving and loading."

Well, here, we have something more sensible to explain that, and that is time travel. But I am still searching for a more sensible explanation of the box.

"All of this doesn't imply a simulation, it implies design."

Indeed. And if it's a universal design, then it's like in the movie Matrix. But it's even weirder if it's a local design only, which seems to be the case. But then again, we have the issue of no one ever taking a note of it. Reality literally breaks apart, everything loses its sense, and no one ever raises any questions.

If ordinary monsters took note of it, if it was strongly established that the HUD warps reality itself, I would believe it. But no. To them, it's like it doesn't even exist. And I don't think it's mind control, that's too easy to say. In fact, that's the number 1 go to argument for conspiracy theorists.

But there is one way of resolving this issue. Suppose the HUD modifies the overworld too. Prevents us from leaping from a bridge, for example. In such case, the entire reality would be implied to be simulated and so, the Matrix explanation would apply. But I find it nonsensical for there to be a loose simulation toying with a real world (the overworld). If the HUD is real, then everything else must fall under its rule too.

"It's that if he never attacks, you can't either."

Well, that's precisely why we could attack him. Because he's got the laws of the HUD figured wrong.

"And the precise shapes only imply design, not simulation."

I cannot wrap my head around the idea that the HUD is so meta but nothing else is. The two concepts are absolutely incompatible with each other.

"Or some magical construct designed to be the same every time."

What produces it? Where does its root lie at? With magic, we already know the answer, souls. But why would a soul need to make text that's the same every time, or buttons, or the entire HUD for that matter? Unless it's not the soul that's generating it. In which case, what is it? Where is the root of this magic?

"Which would make Asriel Dreemurr LESS powerful because of all the monster SOULs he absorbed."

That DT is soul-locked. Soul locked DT boosts magic. Only magic that makes a direct contact with DT is devoured.

"The game is what is telling us these things. And the plot mechanic to shock us was showing Chara fall rather than Frisk."

I meant a minor shock. I wasn't talking about that one big shock we got near the end of the game.

"That's exactly what happened. Before they melted into what we know as the Amalgamates."

Both persisted.

"She's the only one that mentions it being for the first time."

Well, this was the first time she's seeing us, so obviously. No one else mentioned this, because no one else formulated their sentences this way. Case closed, when we go back after befriending them (with Toriel, after meeting her, because that's when we technically befriend her), we trigger these dialogues. It's always and only after we go back. Toriel simply adds in that she was feeling the same about the other humans too, if she gets this feeling with us, that is.

That's all there is to it, really.

"Which contradicts her line about "As it is customary for those who make it this far, I will tell you the tragic tale of our people.""

I mean, that doesn't mean she met any other humans before, she was just being a bit silly. Which is probably the case, as how exactly can you be "customary" with just 7 cases tops? How many of them passed before it became "customary" to her? Actually, I think if they just kept slipping by, she would get pretty pissed and wouldn't act so "nicely" towards us.

"Creating light wouldn't explain that either. It would appear to glow, not make waves."

Okay. How about creating light in waving patterns? That's something that magic would be able to do.

"If you try to merge our world with the world of Undertale, like I did with that wave frequency SOUL magic thing, then yes, it makes no sense. But, remember, this isn't our universe. Undertale has its own laws, its own mechanics, that are completely different than ours!"

Okay. Then I am allowed to say that the HUD prevents Frisk from leaping from a cliff.

"You SAW the crime happen, you KNOW this person committed the crime."

Who says it was something that could be traced backwards in time? Events that happen can be traced, but seeing the images of a mind is something that time reversal doesn't give you. The mind doesn't only hold images of things that have happened and nothing else, don't be stupid.

"you'll eventually find the actual death"

Again, who said we're speaking of past events here? Time reversal is useless for future events, or things happening right now. And it's not just about crimes, it could also be used to circumvent security measures to reach justice, by peeking into someone's mind to see what is hidden behind those measures you cannot otherwise breach.

"The same way we know things without experiencing them."

So you're telling me Sans taught everyone how the HUD works and what to expect from an encounter with a human or something?