Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180824120023

"Then he would have no problem calling it off."

And ruin his credibility as a king who makes clear, consistent rulings?

"I'd say hope if I were me. Actually, I am. Hope."

But whatever it is.. Once you spare him, that thing stops him no longer.

"So according to you, the mere fact that monsters don't display these emotions all the times disproves that line?"

Don't have it, you shouldn't exist according to the book.

"Are you sure Toby was being this literal? Stating that line, and then immediately breaking it with monsters like Asgore, Sans, or Burgerpants?"

See? He didn't put in a line and then hide in some complex clues to fit together to prove it false! The evidence was right there in front of us the whole time!

"He wanted to be rid of the responsibility, yes, but actively trying to sink the hopes of all monsters is the exact opposite of what he's been trying to do this entire time, so no."

Specifically, he wanted to give the monsters false hope.

"He no longer cares about the possibility of human retaliation, he doesn't care about anything like that in fact. He just doesn't want his people to be unhappy because of his decisions, so he has to, but would gladly accept any means of unburdening himself from this."

According to Asgore, the war was just a fit of rage. Since there's no real evidence that he changed his mind on the matter, the reason why he was "meekly hoping another human never arrives" was because of that. The rest of what you said is spot-on... Except that "unburdening himself" also means letting the monsters stay underground.

"Hope no longer ties to him, he didn't "lose" it, he lost the motive that would require him to be hopeful."

After analyzing Toriel's speech, I see that Asgore did have hope. You were at least somewhat correct in your analysis:I'll expand upon that:His hope has now shifted to humans just not falling anymore.. But it's "meekly hoping". Once we showed up, as the seventh human.. Well, that flat-out destroyed it. ..He still should have disappeared then. And the rest of the underground, too, before Asgore decalred war.

"If I recall correctly, Toby once mentioned somewhere that the relations with the humans were tots fine. Though I cannot find the source, you'll have to believe me. But even not considering that, aren't you an optimist? Once again, I don't think what you're suggesting would really fit with what Toby had in mind."

Once again, we don't know that, and should just use the game as our source. When it comes to intentions, you could really argue anything.

"What evidence?"

..You know, nochocolate's evidence?

Really, it's simple to prove, though. A RESET takes you back to the start of the Underground, your file is blank.. The game never lets you SAVE on the Surface, and Flowey should have been overtaken by Frisk long ago if it wasn't bound to the underground.

"Whimsuns... in the ruins..."

First off, if they don't aim for you and are sparable right away, they don't count. This also includes Moldsmal. The Froggit proof only applies to monsters that can't be immediately spared (successfully, that is.) Secondly, in the ruins, that's where the megalomaniac part comes in..

"Another possibility is that the other monsters simply don't bother checking your HP bar, because they don't expect their attacks to actually deal any damage... perhaps."

If Napstablook shows anything, it's that monsters' HP can raise and lower, even if they're not harmed at all. ...Wait, that's probably native to ghosts, isn't it?

Either way, if Toriel can naturally sense your HP values, and it's shown that HP values are visible.. Makes it pretty clear that HP is something for the monsters to know.

"Good thinking."

For further evidence, you can encounter multiple monsters at once when there's "1 left"-Most evidently in the CORE. That's where I got my 117 for my "worst case scenario" from. (Well, that and other details, like the First Froggit's kill not counting towards the monster counter, etc..) :3

"I'm rather talking about my own morals right now. From my point of view, if there's no one to remember it, it didn't happen."

And this is the problem. When we look at the games, we need to look at how they ARE. Under the GAME'S rules. You can't just put in your subjective morals and then say that HAS to be the game's canon:You just can't. You have to use the game. Part of the reason why we can't agree on the most basic principals of the game is because too many people would rather use their own principals when the game shows another one. Fanon over canon, they do. It should be canon over fanon.

"And your grand point is? That people attempt genocide because they are subconsciously aware of this "C" constant or whatever?

Nope. My grand point is that since Toby made that chart, he had thought that this was the path the players would take. It's proof that this was his intention. Of course the reason why we do Genocide is exactly what Sans said it was. This is here to show that yes, Toby DID want this to happen.

"And is then updated with the information that there were 7 wizards. We saw only one in the intro."

The other wizards were likely in that big crowd of humans.

"Which would make the plaques the lore, since they're at the end of the information update chain. Even if it was written by a monster. For there is nothing to indicate that THAT particular monster was lying. We know nothing of them. Why presume their notes were false?"

When we have evidence to debunk them. That is the indication. When evidence and a witness account clash, which is the one that you should discard?

"I mean, why else would Toby add update info into the game, if not to update our knowledge of the lore as we progress?"

To further deconstruct what the perspectives of the "enemies" in an RPG would actually be like? Monsters are very much like humans here.

"Even if I believed that, it would only invalidate that one single Snowdin book, nothing else whatsoever."

But it proves that the monsters are lying on a massive scale. ...That or they're hardcore alchemists....

More modestly, that book was the only evidence to suggest that no monster could be evil-That there is no reason for them to attack you.

"Well maybe you're just being overly literal once again."

No matter how you put it, their hope was lost. The only possible exaggeration is the "entire underground" part:Maybe there were a few hopeful monsters left. But the fact still stands:There should have been a massive drop in monster population.

"I never figured that when playing any other game. In fact, no other game, including Undertale, made me ever question in-canon lore, over out-canon premises about the game (even if those promises themselves later turn out to be in-canon too, e.g. the intro actually being someone's memory)."

It's not "in-canon lore", though. It's "in-canon book written by in-canon author". Immerse yourself in the world more. See that book. See it not as some mystical out-canon way of describing in-canon lore, but as a real, canon, book.

"I must strongly disagree with you on this. There is no bias at play here. This goes in accordance to the very usual gaming tropes."

Oh, so we're metagaming now? Okay then, recall that Undertale was all ABOUT subverting gaming tropes. What does the metagame say about it now?

"If Toby claims that a soul, something deeply spiritual and religious, is actually a glowing pixelated heart-shaped magical voodoo object you move around in a box and control the world that has meanwhile turned black and white and partitioned into turns using glowing buttons that are also physical, and if everything concerning simultaneity and smoothness of our world we are accustomed to turns into something even weirder than the already absolutely bizzarre concept of the quantum world within this game, I am willing to believe anything."

More than half of that's false. Nobody said the heart was glowing, simultaneity doesn't break from the turn rule: you just can't access the buttons from the box. The button's aren't glowing, either.

Also, the pixilation was never mentioned. It's not canon. In fact, it CAN'T be, because if it was, the signs would only read lines: Nothing for Chara to actually read for you. It's not just non-canon, it's Bizzaro canon. You also don't control the world. Unless you meant SAVing and LOADing, but that's controlling time, not the world. Also, the world didn't turn black and white. Twilight is shining through the barrier, is it not?

Canon as told by the game's a lot less weird than you might think.

"I actually find it harmless. My interpretation of this is, that they don't need to be constantly projecting it, but they can certainly gain / regain it easily. As in, they have this aspect that is central to their existence, meaning they cannot exist without it, and yet they can wholly suppress it. It still exists, they still have it, but aren't showing it. The only way to tell the difference between them and perhaps a depressed human in such case is how quickly they can regain it once again after their burden is lifted away."

So they "have" it, yet it looks like they don't?

"Minus of course the difficulty of fully suppressing it to begin with: see Papyrus for further reference."

Let's see:He never gives up in what he's doing, sees that you could become good even after you kill him in Genocide...

"Do not imply."

Glad you figured that rule out. Now, you start following that rule too. Let's start with the whole Toby Fox shenanigans.