Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20171213151556/@comment-32182236-20180211171709

“Then what the hell do you keep arguing about? If there's no problem then don't try to make one. Vegetoid is not monitored by the USDA since the USDA doesn't know about its existence. Done. End of discussion.”

Actually, you made up the problem, saying that the USDA being mentioned proves the game is historically inaccurate. It’s not. But I’m glad we can agree now. We can close this point now.

“Then there's no proof they are the Native Americans.”

You were trying to prove they couldn’t be. I was saying they were, and this is Earth. Maybe it’s not, but the similarities are close enoug that they likely took a similar path in civilization and technological development to us, meaning we could still use some kind of history to approximate the rate of growth, or find the time gap based on the growth of technology.

“The monsters believed they would come from the barrier side, so they hid on the other side of the underground, where a hole later opened up or something, so they started constructing the puzzles. Lemme repeat that, the puzzles in the ruins were constructed only after the hole opened up. Also, I don't understand what do you mean by "entrance facing the Ruins". The only made entrance is the door, and the only way you can go through it is from the Ruins into the Snowdin forest.”

That’s just it. The entrance is designed so that you can only enter from the Ruins. You cannot enter the Ruins from Snowdin. The castle entrance is also facing the Ruins.. It’s clear the architecture was designed for the city to be entered from the Ruins hole. This doesn’t make sense if monsters are coming from Snowdin.

“A key to a door! It's a door, it requires a key. You know what, if you keep asking for answers, then expect answers. I never before thought I would ever have to explain the concept of keys and doors to anyone.“

..I was asking why we don’t see that key. Or the lock that the key is supposed to unlock, for that matter. (Seriously, why don’t we get narration of chains or locks like with Happstablook?)

“We won't, since we don't have a shield around our planet.“

They don’t either, at least not a two-way shield. And it was proven to be one-way by the banishment itself.

“Who says they wrote about history? To them, it could very well be the present. As I said, different plaques could have been written at different times. And this one could have been written after they scanned the entire underground but before the first human trash started flowing in. Also, the intro portrays the legend as the monsters know it. The last bit is what is also known to the humans, apparently. In any case, it is a legend. Would you rather trust a historical book or some ancient knowledge-passing text, or a simple legend? I would take the books and knowledge any day of the week. The legend is definitely not of a divine origin, as all legends and stories have been created by humans in our world (including even the "word of God"), so this conclusion comes from a simple implication. And I see no proof that this legend is of a divine origin either.“

Well, it’s more likely to be ignorant about history than something that happened right in front of your eyes. If they were one of the monsters who witnessed the banishment, they’d be MUCH more likely to figure “hey, it’s not two-way. We LITERALLY CROSSED THE BARRIER FROM THE OUTSIDE.” Also, what makes you think the intro was a legend as the monsters know it? It seems to contradict the plaques, which were written by the monsters, which is what got this discussion started in the first place, about whether the war was long (as the intro states) or short (as the plaques imply). If anything, it’s as the humans know it. And the book mentioning the legends surrounding Mt. Ebott does not MAKE it a legend. If I made a story telling how people in Greece told Greek myths, does that make my story a myth of its own? Of course not. Same thing here. (By the way, divine origin does have evidence for existing, at least in some form, in Undertale-Take for example the prophecy of the Delta Rune.)

“The giant hole is rather small and hidden in a cave somewhere on the mountain. It's no Arizona crater. In any case, they said there are no entrances or exits, and since I believe this, this proves to me that there indeed weren't any. So far, I was able to explain the plaques rationally and didn't have to resort to debunking their "historical accuracy." You're the only one doing that. You're the only one who keeps questioning the canon here, up to the point of sounding ridiculous. Honestly? If something is canon, then you don't debunk it because it doesn't fit your perfect theories, you tweak those theories so that it fits. And the plaques weren't made to be questioned, so we shouldn't assume that they're false. Else we would have nothing to build upon.“

That hole you speak of is the Ruins hole, the one that, under my theory, the monsters were banished under. You can’t debunk my theory by saying that if a part of it is wrong, the rest must be.. without first proving the part you mentioned must be wrong. The other hole, the one they saw, was the New Home hole, which DOES look like a giant crater (oddly rectangular though), as shown by the True Pacifist Ending, at the same screen that we see the Surface for the first time. (And Frisk or Papyrus becomes ambassador) And while you explain the plaques, you fail to explain the intro. Each one of us is calling something inaccurate, we just don’t agree on what it is. I say the intro is the story told, as exposition knowledge, and the inconsistencies between the plaques and... more plaques... prove they must be inaccurate, and you say it is the INTRO that must be inaccurate because... why again? Why do you argue the plaques weren’t made to be questioned, when we know full well they were written by monsters, with biases and flaws just like humans, and flat-out contradict each other, but the intro WAS made to be questioned, despite appearing as exposition knowledge? By the way, my definition of “canon” is:We see it happen, or it can be proven based on other canon information. Anything beyond that is theories and speculation. And that includes assuming that the monsters who wrote the plaques got everything right about the war, especially when they contradict each other. I speak again-If it’s not in the game, and it can’t be proven beyond reasonable doubt from the game without any added assumptions, it isn’t necessarily canon, and should not be treated as fact. Just because monsters say something happened doesn’t make it true. You say this about the intro, I say this about the plaques. And yes, we do have something to build upon-The intro, and Alphys’ lab entries. We also have the Undertale (no, not the game, the story in New Home), the VHS tapes (Yeah, I’m not going to say those were forged. Just like how I’m not going to say the moon landing was forged. They’re both just as ridiculous, considering how hard it would be to forge them.)

“Did I say one meter long? No, I did not. I said one meter wide. The stairs can be a mile long, I don't care. As long as it gets people one mile up in the air, I don't care.”

Well, you should, because you need enough material to make these stairs in the first place, and finding a square mile of the material necessary would take a long while. It might even be easier to build the CORE itself, which need not be that long at all. And since the CORE is hollow on the inside (I mean, the rooms and halls aren’t filled by stone), surface area is the only limiting factor here. And the surface area of the CORE would be much smaller than that of the stairs you mentioned, as for the stairs, it would be a little bit more than a full square mile (half a square mile, but twice, for each side, plus the actual steps, which at a meter wide would require the smallest amount) while for the CORE, it would be only 0.38 acres for the floor and ceiling each (this calculated the size of the core: https://aminoapps.com/c/undertale/page/blog/how-big-is-the-underground/aoVS_0u6mdVvgRoKnZvnEbGNeE2pPZ), so if the CORE is a cube, that leaves us with 2.28 acres, which is... a mere 0.0035625 square miles. ....Yeah, the CORE’s a better option here. While the CORE is taller than it is wide, we have to remember the measurements of 0.38 acres portray the CORE at its widest. It all roughly balances out-Even if it was off by a full order of magnitude (it’s obviously not, that’s an exaggeration that makes your side somewhat more reasonable) that’d be 0.035625 square miles, less than 4% of the material you’d need for the stairs. The CORE is more efficient, and the better option. Hence, it’s the one they took.

“Moving everyone at once is not a good idea either. The monsters would need to move to an area that already had everything functioning, which means the people running everything must first move there. The production must be moved. And no one is going to export calenars across the underground.”

Move half the production to New HOME, while keeping the other half at HOME.

“My reasoning for everything is simple: The calendar cannot be stuck at the beginning of 201X because of that being the date that everyone moved. Since else, no one would find Chara. And I see no way that Toriel and Asgore would let Asriel go there, because of safety, nor go with him, because, what else is there left to do half a year after their departure, honestly? Talk to the monsters still left there? Isn't it kinda suspicious that this happened the exact day that Chara fell down? I rather think they were all in the ruins all this time, as they were the last to depart. Which of course raises the question, why is the calendar not showing the END of 201X instead? Well, here I argued that this calendar actually comes from the year before 201X, but it just had the first few months of 201X printed on it as well, due TO the mass migration to New Home. This would explain why the calendar is stuck there. It can't go any further.”

Nobody did find Chara at first, otherwise the Waterfall plaques would probably say so, since now these monsters actually have definitive proof that their claim about “oh, a human will never come here” has been completely and utterly DESTROYED, exposed as the nonsense it is. Though, I am leaning further and further towards this date being when everybody except Toriel left. Both sides would need a ruler, and it’s clear Asgore was there with them, as he was the one who gave the names to all the places. That leaves Toriel to take care of the Ruins, and Asriel Dreemurr. They left right when Chara fell, possibly even BECAUSE Chara fell. It even answers the question on why the calendars stopped-If Toriel and Asriel were now the only ones there, there wouldn’t exactly be any calendar production going on...

“To be honest, I don't know why Toby chose to make the departure year the same as the year of Chara's arrival, and NOT put those two dates close to each other. It really makes you wonder what the hell was Asriel doing there in the ruins half a year later.”

This is a mystery we both separately tried to solve and got wildly different answers. But it’s a solvable one. We just need to look.

“Who says there weren't entertainers before? And Asgore knows shit about anime, since anime is a human invention. No one said he doesn't know what cartoons are though (and yes, there is a difference between a cartoon and an anime).”

Exactly-Anime is a human invention. So is all the rest of entertainment. And I asked specifically about celebrities. Besides, if there were others before Mettaton, why doesn’t ANY of the monsters see that hey, maybe another will rise again? Why is it like “Oh, we’ll lose our spark FOREVER!” Guys, this supposedly already happened several times before. This is probably another one of those. Nooo reason to do that. Unless of course Mettaton really WAS the only one.....

“Maybe not a spark, but again, prove it. No entertainers whatsoever, ever? Really? Not even a single silly party clown or a mime or something?”

Frankly, we don’t see any of those throughout the entire game. So yeah, I can say there won’t be any more, unless someone’s inspired by Mettaton. But yeah, Mettaton’s the only entertainer in the entire game.

“Did any of the Gaster followers say he was the only one? I don't think so. Again, a single person managing to do all of this seems unlikely, even if you call them a genius. And if the monsters are as brilliant as you're saying, then there DEFINITELY should be more than just one.”

Unless they left it to Gaster so they could invent other things like the printing press, and some more puzzles, and VHS tapes, and... (etc)

“And your Asgore argument is relying on this unsupported assumption that Gaster indeed was the only one. And also you just kinda assumed that Gaster was forgotten and completely dismissed the fact that nothing is indicating so.”

I’ve given several of these indications before. We’re discussing them right now.

“It works if you believe these assumptions to be true, but it won't convince me, since you have to prove these assumptions first, or don't, but make it into a REALLY good theory, by connecting many other things that such assumptions would lead to”

Like an explanation for Sans and Papyrus’ mysterious origin? Why nobody mentions the scientist who made the CORE? What about Papyrus seeming to lose his memory like you pointed out?

“You must always seek the simplest route. If a certain assumption leads to too many weird assumptions, such as the monsters ALL being geniuses and pretty much outlawing drama and poetry because it is a distraction JUST to get thousands of years ahead in technological progress, then yes, perhaps you should seek a simpler explanation.”

As long as it doesn’t contradict ANYTHING we see in the game, and explains things better than my theory, okay then, let’s swap. But otherwise, I’m sticking with the theory that has there be no plot holes in the entire game.

“As I said, this is no Eureka, this is just a simple race of monsters, whose main traits are love, hope and compassion. Not necessarily geniality.”

Asgore was just fine without hope. (When he lost hope after the death of Chara and Asriel) And since hope is something the book says their SOULs are literally made out of, the books must be a lie. Otherwise Asgore’s SOUL would lose a third of itself, making it inoperative, resulting in the death of Asgore.

“So much for his intelligence then, falling into a pool of magma. But in any case, I think the evidence here is strong that what he "fell" into wasn't the CORE.”

So.. was it that machine Sans was trying to fix?

“So you do acknowledge that he wasn't the only one then.”

He wasn’t the only one researching time anomalies. That had nothing to do with the CORE.

“My theory is that everyone got affected in a different way. Some were forgotten, some forgot, and some simply got shattered across time and space.”

Only Gaster was shattered across time and space.

“And I don't think fragments of Gaster surviving would make anyone remember him. I mean, if their memories were wiped clean as you're saying, then they didn't just "forget", they simply technically never knew. Else everyone could once again remember Gaster if they just trired hard enough, which seems contrary to what you're saying, that he was forgot due to some timeline mumbo jumbo, which would suggest that he technically never existed in this timeline. Alas, no one ever said he was forgotten by anyone. That's purely your headcanon.”

As I explained in a later post, the real reason why Sans remembers Gaster is because he comes from Gaster’s timeline. That’s how he appeared out of nowhere and asserted himself, like the people in Snowdin were supposed to have already known him. Papyrus did too, at first, for the same reason, but because he didn’t have all those reminders about Gaster, he quickly forgot, since Gaster was a non-entity in the new timeline. He was retconned. As for everybody else, it’s just as you said:They couldn’t remember Gaster no matter how hard they tried, because he never existed in the first place.

“From where you ask? There's only three directions they could have come from. The first one leads to pretty much nowhere (honestly, if they came from the Snowdin forest, I think there would be some monsters that would already recognize them), and the last two both lead to the rest of the underground. And I don't think it's weird the shopkeeper didn't say from which one of these paths they emerged. You find it weird that she also didn't state the exact date, week day, day time and velocity of their arrival, as well as the path they took when they started approaching the town? You really find that weird? I find you weird. The shopkeeper is a simple bunny woman. Just because she said they "showed up one day" ain't mean there's something suspicious about it. It would honestly be much more suspicious if she said something like "they showed up out of nowhere". If anything, she said that to compare it with the next sentence, that they asserted themselves. Implying they asserted themselves rather very quickly, which indeed is a bit suspicious now.

They either came from Waterfall, or from the river.”

Yeah, asserting themselves as if they should already be known... Alas, when they arrived is less important then where they came from. And their speed.. wait, why would that be important compared to where they came from, or WHY they came to Snowdin? Look, the problem here is that nobody seems to know where they were before they were at Snowdin. Nobody else recognizes either of them as someone who was there before moving away somewhere across the entire game. You already ruled out the Snowdin Forest, but we can rule out Waterfall and the river for similar reasons... which leaves, well.. absolutely nowhere.

“Bravo. You listed every monster that knows you're a human. You managed to prove nor disprove nothing. Also, as you pointed out, some monsters that recognize you as a human do have their reasons not to kill you, which again is totally useless for this discusison. As I said, many monsters don't know you're a human.”

...Seriously? You’re saying Undyne DIDN’T recognize you as a human? Even though she explicitly said you were one? Also, if they were truly a form of representing oneself, the bullet patters would be random, not aimed at your SOUL. For example, the frog pattern from the froggit chases after wherever your SOUL is. Take a closer look at the actual gameplay, and experiment around, and you should notice it too-They’re always aimed at wherever your SOUL is. That’s suspicious.

“I can confidently say here that you're wrong. Only the monsters that say you're a human at some point recognize you as a human. The rest falls under the "expression through magic" category. I know this is canon, since Papyrus almost not recognizing you as a human at first is canon, as well as Asgore in the genocide route.”

Neither of them attack you, nor express themselves through magic. Asgore just stands there saying there’s no reason to fight, while Papyrus... Well, he DOES recognize you as a human, it’s SANS who doesn’t recognize you as a human. “He’d appreciate it if you kept pretending to be one.”

“And since monsters recognizing you as a human but never showing it off is pointless for the story as well as the game, I don't think any of those that we've met that didn't say you're a human actually knew you're a human.”

That’s a meta-argument. Please, use real evidence instead of appealing to meta stuff. That’s how we get all those nonsense theories, like the whole game representing the nine circles of Inferno (That’s an actual theory, by the way-It was made by Treesicle. Yes, the Youtuber.)

“It's such a pointless assumption too. And I think it's very clear that monsters are made out of love hope and compassion. After all, it was written in one of their OWN books. Emphasis on "own". It's not like they made that book just for you to read it. There was an entire library of books there.”

Which all equally support the monster side. And remember, what lead me to that conclusion was how Asgore had no hope, and nothing happened. Monsters have thereby proven that they don’t need these things to exist.

“You were reading their own stuff, not stuff they wanted you to think about them. So stop speaking like an alt-left conspiracy idiot. The last thing we need is Undertale conspiracy theories. Honestly, you're saying the monsters are dishonest.”

Yes, I am, and I’m backing it up with evidence, by pointing out flaws in the theory that they ARE being honest. Most conspiracy theories don’t have this evidence-Closest they get are strange anomalies that can easily be explained by science. (Except for a select few, but those were proven to be true later on, like, for example, Watergate, or the Pentagon Papers) “Oh, no parallel shadows! That means a second light source existed!” No, it means the ground isn’t flat. Something we already knew. I’m arguing that since the books say monsters would need these things to exist, and Asgore has proven that monsters DON’T need these things to exist, we have a legitimate contradiction.

“His biggest accomplishment was the CORE, from what we know. Therefore, he would be at Edison's level at most. With some added benefits of course. But he never was "popular", as in Papyrus-style popular I imagine.”

Yeah, Edison’s a pretty good approximation. And Edison’s popular amongst science. And yet Alphys NEVER speaks about him. Hmm....

“Because he wasn't forgotten.”

Yeah... But if he wasn’t one for publicity in the first place, then how did they find out about Gaster in the first place?

“Do I need to repeat myself? Again? You are the one who still believes everyone has memory lapses for some reason. And why? So that you could "fix" your plot holes that you created yourself using your nonsensical arguments. There is no plot hole, the only hole there is is the one in your head preventing you from perceiving the fact that there's no proof that anyone forgot Gaster whatsoever. Just because they don't talk about him don't mean they forgot. And that's another insert you added to prove yourself right, you said that he was "popular" so that it would seem weird to you that none of them talk about him. And you also keep ignoring Asgore, saying that the fact that he remembers Gaster is because he "connected the dots", instead of realizing that this indeed is the ultimate proof that no one forgot Gaster (since Asgore is not special enough by any means, unlike those with high amounts of DT for example), as any other normal person would realize by this point. No, instead you took the fact and bent it so that it fit your own theory. You would make a great alt-right leader, honestly.”

They don’t. The only reason why they don’t “remember” Gaster is because he never existed. Them remembering Gaster would be equivalent to us remembering a time when unicorns ruled over the earth. It just never happened in this timeline. Sans and Papyrus were from Gaster’s timeline, like that giant Gaster theory you linked a while back suggests, and I said Gaster was popular, because, well... Why wouldn’t he be if he made great inventions? And we know that one because of the Gaster Follower... And we’ve hit the foundation. Also, Asgore doesn’t “remember” Gaster. He only knew that they needed a Royal Scientist, (as a Gaster Follower points out), and that someone made the CORE. (EVERYBODY who knows about the CORE and common sense knows that-The CORE had to be built by somebody, after all). Asgore never mentions Gaster at all. He doesn’t even know the name. Asgore only “remembers” Gaster as much as we “remember” the time of dinosaurs.

“Uh, they dropped it? Duh? And "only?" What do you mean, "only?" Perhaps, that human felt like the ribbon was stupid, and the knife too ineffective. There are so many explanations that don't involve their death.”

Better than nothing, though. And remember, the ribbon still gives armor. Now, if someone else’s stuff was found in the Ruins, then they would drop it, yes, but then, how did THAT stuff end up in the Ruins? What, it was dropped too because something better yet was there? Okay, how did THAT get into the Ruins? Yeah, we get an infinite loop, so we can eliminate that explanation.

“That still don't mean I'm wrong tho.”

It does, because Toriel’s elaboration reveals the thing she was disgusted about was the whole “wait around for six more humans to fall” thing. Therefore, Toriel’s was indeed specifically mad and left because of Asgore not going with the idea Toriel proposed here.

“There's no way Frisk could get past the barrier, so even if they heard it, they wouldn't be able to tell the humans. No, honestly, they couldn't. The math doesn't add up.“

They could by killing Toriel first after finding out about her treachery.

“You also forgot that in many of the endings, Undyne is elected the ruler and actually does declare a war. So what Sans told us wasn't a ploy.”

Sans isn’t the one lying here. Toriel is.

“This isn't politics, this is just a game, and there is no conspiracy involved. Especially since there's no way we would know for sure anyways.”

Just a game? Okay, let’s drop ALL of our theories. Instead, Undertale’s a world where friendship is magic, and we all go frolicking in the fields of friendship. Oh, and it’s all a dream of being in Dante’s Inferno. What, it doesn’t make sense? It’s just a game, bro! Just a game bro! /s

“Lastly, Toriel is a loving mother. You are confusing her with the edgy Fell!Toriel. Toriel has integrity. She would never betray and murder a child. Justice? Maybe. It would seem necessary to them. But integrity has morals. At least according to Sans.”

Toriel takes care of the humans because she would rather be with the humans than with Asgore, because, just as she said in TP, Asgore was too much of a coward. Alas, I’ve changed my stance a bit. The humans WILL be treated as friends... But when they die, their SOULs will be collected... hey, that won’t harm the human, they’re already dead! From her reason of leaving Asgore, we can deduce Toriel was more of a fan of tactical play and strategies than just being a coward/coming up with stupid plans. After all, the latter is why Toriel left Asgore. NOT that Asgore wanted to free the monsters and kill humanity! But instead, STRICTLY because Asgore decided to wait around for six more humans to fall than destroying humanity even sooner! Doesn’t that make her nature of loving humans seem, well.. Suspicious? She went completely out of character, either with leaving Asgore, or sometime afterwards. The former has no real explanation, but the latter does, if we either say Toriel did still have a plan, or that she takes care of humans because she doesn’t have anything better to do. (Asgore’s the one with the SOULs, after all. Considering that Toriel doesn’t kill Frisk in the battle, in fact deliberately trying not to, we can rule out the former.. One COULD say that Toriel was counting SOULs and “knew” Asgore would get his seventh, but considering her distrust of Asgore, that’s unlikely, and we should probably just stop this particular path of the road. So, she takes care of humans because she doesn’t have anything better to do.

“So as you can see, my point stands. Toriel revoked the rule immediately. And she revoked it even if you were an absolutely horrible person, which, frankly, does end up in her exiling again. So her morals indeed always were that killing is wrong, even for the greater good. If Asgore instead suggested to wait until those that fell down aged, died by an accident, or did it willingly, I think she would be okay with that.”

Of course she did. That was frankly a stupid rule. Humans are stronger than monsters, and there’s no reason to wait around for another seven to fall when you can do it with one. Undyne, on the other hand, keeps the “wait around for seven humans” rule.. For some reason.. (I guess she trusts Asgore’s judgement THAT much..?)

“Perhaps, they couldn't see that they had their uses. Perhaps they couldn't see the stats. Or maybe the items needed to "age" in order to be any good. I mean, a dusty tutu doesn't really provide you with any armor. And neither does a locket. Nor many other things from this bunch, including some of the weapons too (honestly, how is a torn notebook a weapon?). Most of these rather seem like "sentimental weapons", if you know what I mean. That would then make the aging thingy understandable. But as I said, some of them could have had a potental to be hated, for example the ballet gear.”

So.. you argue that they could save and load.. but they couldn’t see the stats like Frisk does? Really? Even though we’ve established that anyone who could save and load at one point automatically can see the HUD?

By the way, I don’t know how a sentimental weapon could work. Really, my guess here is the torn notebook is a weapon.. either like a regular notebook, or the tears are used because sharp paper. But it’s not very effective, hence it being in Waterfall with the Ballet Shoes.

“Why are the buildings that we see not rubble?

Because the buildings that we see are not rubble. What kind of question even is that?”

I was asking a scientific question. How would this make sense. Why haven’t they been rubbles out? Logically, if the kingdom is in ruins like this, they SHOULD be rubble. I’m presenting this as contradictory evidence.

“The rest is though. Or perhaps, there's not any rubble left, as it was all cleaned out. Remember, it could very well be a thousand years since this event. I'm not saying it happened recently. And it probably wouldn't considering that yes, a hole would attract kids, but then again, the legend would need some time to spread.”

Cleaned out by...? What, did Toriel do this? And if Toriel rebuilt the buildings as well.. Then why? Why when there’s only 30 monsters still in the Ruins, whom all hang around in the catacombs instead of live in these buildings, and the humans all stay in the old royal castle?

“I said I do the exact opposite of that, dude. You on the other hand don't even give him a chance. And some pathogens latch onto every word that he says. Which, as I explained many times already, is not my case. I told you very clearly that I can recognize a joke from a serious post.”

How, exactly? You quote Toby, and then say because he said that, it’s canon. By doing this, you fail to even consider that this is another joke.

“Toby's jokes aren't heavy-troll level, poe's law doesn't really apply here. It only applies to the hardest cases of sarcasm.”

Like saying there won’t be Chara merchandise and then making Chara merchandise. Or saying FNAF3 is cancelled because it was leaked and then it turns out to be a troll game, with FNAF3 still being around. (THAT’S the “FNAF3 troll” I was talking about)

“So if YOU think that everything he says is sarcasm, then that's not my problem.”

I think we have no way to tell the difference, not that everything is a joke. Just that everything COULD be a joke, and we have no way to tell which is which because Poe’s law. There’s a reason why I specified that not everything he says is “Bizzaro canon”. (Bizzaro is the world from Superman where everything’s opposites.. So Bizzaro canon would mean that the canon is opposite of what Toby said it is.. That nothing he said could be true.. Which is equally as ridiculous as saying that everything he says is true.)

“You have this issue that you don't know where to draw the line.”

Yeah, because Poe’s law. Since Poe’s law is a thing, NOBODY knows where to draw the line. It doesn’t exist. No matter where you put it, there will be either jokes on both sides or actual truths on both sides. Therefore, the best thing to do is ignore the posts entirely, and not use them at all. If they match what Toby said, good-Probably wasn’t a joke. If it doesn’t, well, Toby could have been joking, and in this case, he probably is. If it contradicts the game.. Well, then that’s a problem with your theory and you need to revise it. Even if you got it from Toby himself.

“You think everything Toby says is sarcasm, you think every line in the game said by a monster is just charades and ploys, you would gladly disregard all conventions and common sense just because it's not "impossible" to prove your point...”

More like I’d disregard all assumptions to make the game without any plot holes. Even ones that seem obvious. Because every theory with holes in it is a flawed theory. '''Every. Single. One.'''

“Making a joke versus deliberately outraging people. There's a difference. Toby never did the latter. Never. Also, it may surprise you, but I know nothing about FNAF. The deepest my knowledge of its lore goes is that there's some golden demon bear, some purple murdery guy, some ballon boy, a heckton of utterly useless animatronics, and some bite of 87 that was revealed in the 4th installment. So you can stop using it as an example now.”

Like I said, there’s no reason to be an information troll if you’re NOT trying to make people get outraged. Deliberately lying about details like this can only be the work of a troll. Or a scammer, and I’m not going to call him THAT.

“Nothing I agree with disagrees with the lore. Unless the lore is unclear, up to the point of seeming almost contradictory to itself. Then I call that a plot hole. I never call a discrapancy between any of my theories and the lore a plot hole.”

Yeah, you know what I do when the lore seems contradictory to itself? I find where the supposed contradiction is, look for assumptions I made, and disregard the assumption that creates the supposed contradiction. Because usually, the problem is with an assumption you made. I haven’t spotted a single plot hole, other than the ones that were in 1.000 and fixed in 1.001, like Papyrus being in the scene where Undyne spots you even if he’s dead.

“Yeah, you're right, I don't understand, because I know next to nothing about Scott Hawton. Just that he milked his own creation, unlike Toby. So if I can trust him, why can't you? And besides, it's not like the two know each other personally. It seems very unlikely that Toby would try to imitate Scott's humor... whatever kind that guy even preferred. I mean, was Scott obsessed by dogs? If not, then they probably didn't have a lot in common.”

He milked his own creation.. and he’s a troll. (Yes, I mean Scott here.) And no, dogs were not his obsession. Most of his trolls was saying his game was cancelled when it really wasn’t, saying there’d be some kind of replacement, or linking to a “leak” that caused it, and then it being a troll game. His most recent troll lasted for several months, where he kept on saying FNAF6 was cancelled, first as an announcement, and then kept on saying it was cancelled on Reddit, saying it was not a troll, that there’s be some pizzeria simulator... Then the pizzeria sim turned out to be the very FNAF6 that was “cancelled”.

“I'm sorry he said there won't be any of what again? You mean Chara merchandise? So why didn't you say? I thought you were talking about the canonity of the tarot cards in general. Chara is an important character, and tarot cards are unbiased. They're nor hosile, nor obsessive towards any of the motives or subjects. But regular Chara merchandise is what's not gonna happen.”

No, the context of the post was about Chara merchandise, so I was responding to that. So yes, I was talking about the Chara tarot card being Char merchandise. Also, plushes and other merchandise isn’t “biased” either. Not unless you give it actual character, which could only be done in the form of comics. Toby said no Chara merchandise, period. (Technically it was no official merchandise, period..) And what do we get? Official Chara merchandise. Toby’s a troll. He said there wouldn’t be any, probably to deliberately get us mad that there won’t be any Chara merchandise, and since there was Chara merchandise, that was a troll.