Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-34798955-20180310144518/@comment-32182236-20190121191932

That's just it:They DON'T encourage sparing. They logically SHOULD if they still loved the monsters. But instead, their advice never actually suggests sparing is the right option, and they don't help you spare until AFTER you've made it clear that you're not fighting them. (And even then, it might be so you can set up a betrayal kill)

Chara helping Frisk itself at first isn't much of a problem:Frisk is the only reason why Chara's alive after all, so if Frisk's life is tied to Chara's, Chara might keep Frisk alive simply to keep themselves alive. Hence, their life is more important than having one human die.

The problem is you saying that you are TEACHING them. Why do they rely on your lessons? Why do they listen to you? Don't they know (technically think, but we're taking Chara's stance for a while for the sake of finding out what their course of action would be-We don't want to know what people would generally do in their place, we want to know what they specifically would do in their place) how bad humans really are? Killing these people? Just like they did to Asriel? Such heresy! This isn't right at all! Frisk is just trying to teach them bad lessons! Don't let Frisk corrupt you with their lies of so-called "lessons", Chara!!

..You made the exact same mistake that the critics I spoke of in my last post made. Yes, Chara could have attacked the humans. But that would make the humans' attack justified. Tell me, would it make any sense whatsoever for Chara to attack the humans, then tell Asriel that clearly, humans are bad because they fought back? Isn't that exactly what they're trying to do? What makes Chara's plan any better than THEM in this case? Chara's attempted lesson here would in fact be plain nonsense.

But, since the humans ended up attacking for apparently no good reason at all, THAT serves as a powerful argument that humans are bad. And remember, Chara NEEDS Asriel to reach that conclusion, to have any hope of convincing Asriel to kill off the rest of humanity.

Here, let me give you the qualification that need to be met for a hypothetical plan to be better than what Chara actually did. When you make your next "better plan", make sure it fits this criteria.

1:It must plausibly make the humans attack. Else, Chara can't justify why they should attack the rest of humanity later on, since they did nothing wrong. 2:It must also make their attack seem completely unjustified. If their attack is justified, it fails in doing its job at showing how bad humans are, and once again, Asriel wouldn't agree to the idea of killing them all.

I argue the only plan that meets both of these conditions is the one Chara actually did.

Yes, Asriel did the right thing. You got Asriel's real reasons down just right. But remember, we're not focusing on Asriel's reasons. We're focusing on what Chara THINKS those reasons are. We have the luxury of thinking everything through, and taking all of this time to analyze things. But we're trying to find out what conclusion Chara would reach at the moment. And all they see is Asriel refusing to kill the humans that are TRYING TO KILL THEM. Even worse, Asriel stood there. It wasn't until after he took blow after blow that he actually retreated. If he retreated sooner, they might have even lived. It's seriously looking bad for Asriel, and seriously makes it seem like Asriel got them killed, and chose the humans' lives over their own. And right after that, they DIED, only to awaken when we brought them back. With no SOUL.

We know Asriel's action was a good one. We're trying to find out what CHARA would think about it, though. If you spot the same fallacies Chara's used throughout the game, that's the point. To find out what Chara would think, we have to think like Chara, and see where that takes as. And it seems that it takes us to the conclusion that Asriel betrayed Chara. So, that's what Chara would think, and thus, what they would base their actions and further beliefs off of.

Yes, hating the world at the first second wasn't ONLY because they were SOULless. Being SOULless only prevented their compassion from kicking in and stopping the path of thinking that lead to them hating monsters. What path am I talking about? The one I described last post-Asriel betraying them, proving to be just as corruptible as humanity, the monsters seeming not to care about them, and them seeming to have no intention on killing humanity. Perhaps for the same reason why Asriel did. Corrupted, just like the humans. No better than the humans.

(Once again, yes, this is fallacious, but the question we need to ask isn't whether it's a logically valid line of thinking, but whether this line of thinking is the line that Chara would logically follow. Remember, humans aren't rational.)

Why hate Frisk? Because they murdered a bunch of monsters! They killed Chara's own mother, and went against all of Chara's good principals. No better than the humans who attacked Asriel. The only way that Chara could not hate Frisk is if they AGREED with what Frisk was doing. Because they were convinced the monsters were no better than the humans..