Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20170807150620

1/1.1)I did. It was during a duscussion about how the items got to where they were, and how it wouldn't make sense for them to be dropped in the precise locations they were dropped in.

2+2.1)Well then.. That works

2.2)I was trying to say that Toby not putting humans in was significant, that it was on purpose, not some mistake Toby mode. That it's not a problem with the game, but a problem with the GAME. The town could have been abandoned as recently as when the barrier was destroyed, and the humans wanted to not get found by the monsters.

3)I'd analyse the kid.. WAIT IS THAT A HUMAN?! The gods didn't come at all, it's another one of them! Also, and the end of the Genocide Route, they say that together, we eradicated the enemy. Yeah, Chara hates monsters too now-They weren't trying to help the monsters in any way.

3.1)Chara DOES "trust" you, even before you walk out of the golden flowers. Andthey BLINDLY trust you too. Isn't that strange for someone who hates humanity?

3.2/3.3)We're guiding them and awakening them when we call out their name at the VERY start of the game. The fact that even what Chara's name originally WAS alters itself JUST so that your nane is correct is significant-We're calling out to Chara. (We're also being railroaded this way-There's no way NOT to do this)

3.3/3.3C)We don't gain EXP from Chara killing Asgore or Flowey.

3.4/3.5)Chara confirms they hate the monsters when calling them the enemy.

3.5/3.6)Chara didn't correct any narration this time. They didn't make a mistake other than the first time you laugh. They just point out it's not funny.

3.6)/3.7)I have a simpler explanatioj:Let's compare the two.

A-The player, who exists as their own separate entity, attempts to make Frisk laugh, but it fails.

B-Frisk attempts to laugh, but it fails.

Yeah, I'm just saying Frisk tries to laugh and fails. Know how in some RPG games, you can choose "Run"? But sometimes, it fails! Are we canon as our own separate entity in that game? No, we take it as a failed attempt by the protagonist to run away. Here, we're taking it as a failed attempt by Frisk to laugh.

"I break down the door"

"Roll for a Strength Check.. A natural 1? You failed."

Something like that. So yes, Frisk is the one acting as the player in the story. And Flowey is speaking about Chara, who is watching all of this unfold. (He thinks you're Chara, so he probably would have no idea who this narrator is. Can't be two Charas, after all..) And yes, trying to make an extra character just for the player when there's no evidence that's even true is pointless.

You see, we can explain this without contradictions. Once again, Netwonian vs Einstien physics.

4)I too do not consider it consistent with the canon universe. The players is not their own character in the story of the game-Frisk takes that role. And YES, the 4th wall interactions are canon, that's pretty much one of the principals of my theorizing-If something is used to further the plot, or taken advantage of by other characters, it's canon to the plot. If the 4th wall was never broken, I'd just consider this like the other games where the HUD means nothing to the story.

Flowey never mentions an "audience" watching a "program". I already stated who I consider Flowey to br talking about here- The NARRATOR.

Sans still had to do something-When the HUD loads this way, Frisk appears to turn into a heart. We don't see this, it instantly turns black. Therefore, Sans still had to have blocked out our vision.

4.1)He only does it for us. Remember, it's known Sans only has TWO jobs-Sentry at Snowdin, and Sentry at Waterfall. Why do you think Undyne stopped to speak with Sans when she saw.. Oh, a station at Hotland?! Because that station wasn't supposed to be there. Think of it like when Sans teleported in the room next to Glyde. There appears to be two Sans-es, because Sans teleports every time you walk to check.

4.2)Us naming Chara is a deliberate railroading by Toby. No matter what we do, we're naming Chara. Chara is the demon who comes when people call their name. When we name Chara, we are awakening them. We don't realize this until the end of the Genocide Route.

4.3)I said you're roleplaying as that character, not possesing them. Once again, you're not a canon part of the story as your own separate entitiy.

4.4)Yeah, it's my justification for Asgore destroying Mercy, but still letting us fight.

4.5)Yeah, we should close this point. We have plenty of other points about whether the HUD is canon or not-So we should go there.

4.6+4.7)Done to help the player indeed. Perhaps that will help it be a fair fight!

4.8)No, Sans is aware of the HUD, but cannot see it, just like ither monsters can't. And being aware of something you can't see isn't farfetched. We figured out that gravit curves space-time, by observing its effects. Sans did something similar-He can't see the HUD itself, but he witnesses effects that can only be explained BY the HUD, and used a lot of science. So Sans diacovered the HUD like we discovered gravity distorting space-time. And since he knew where the HUD would be relative to Frisk, he aimed there-And it worked!

4.9)And I'm pointed out how it's not hopeless for Frisk, how evidence suggests they could theoretically spare Asgore if we were given the option to try. And Sans' battle proves the HUD is canon, so we can't just say it suddenly doesn't exist for Asgore when witnessing something similar. We need to put two and two together.

4.10)The game does not take place in 201X, because 201X is not a human date. The game probably takes place around 2025. 201X having 1980's technology is pretty good evidence, when they have texhnology superior to humans shows that there is something wrong here.

4.11)The HUD physically contraints us-We can't choose FIGHT! Once again, there's no way to explain why we can't attack Sans during his special attack unless we literally move the box, unless we just say that's how the laws actually work!

4.13)So the box could represent Frisk's body, which would serve as a physical boundary that remains the same, explaining both why Frisk's body stays at the same place at the end of every battle, AND why the box is the same in every encounter. Good so far. But, it still fails to account for Lemon Bread and Sans altering the box to be unfathomably wide in his final attack.

4.14)Well, if you can show me a SAVE point where Frisk isn't filled with determination, then yes. I just realized you might be talking about the inn, which is a way to sleep, and your HP could be restored by sleeping. But determination is still a way to heal yourself.

5)No, we GIVE them a backstory. Once again, we're roleplaying Frisk. Frisk canonically has no set backstory, we aren't even given a glimpse. And when Asriel asks Frisk why they climbed the mountain, there is no answer. There's no canon answer either, we have to craft it for ourselves. We roleplay Frisk in the game.

5.1)We don't see Frisk appear to turn into a heart. And that's what we see when a battle is encountered. Therefore, Sans had to disable our sight of that as well.

6)While it's not normally set that they're merciful, the only way to even GET to the Asriel battle is by being merciful to EVERYONE. So, by getting this far, we're pretty mich establishing that Frisk is a pacifist. And yes, you have the option to leave in the ending. You can also both leave and act as the ambassador. Doesn't make sense if leaving means you won't ever see the monsters again, since you're literally serving them as an ambassador. It just means you're going back home, and visiting the monsters now and then. Otherwise, choosing to also be their ambassador doesn't make sense.

I mean, you COULD just stay with Toriel the whole time, you just won't be able to finish the game.. Nothing stopping you from contuing to live with Toriel, though.