Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20190115215544

>Yet the second red flag clearly highlights this same aspect as a major part of the Red Trait.

As I've said, if it's not blue, it's red. And it's blue if you have some original style to begin with. If honor, integrity and morality are what predominantly describes you. If not, or if it's unclear whether these are your dominant aspects, it's probably gonna be red.

>As shown both by the basic fact that Frisk can absorb Asgore's SOUL, and Monsters can absorb human SOULS, and the final scene of the first chapter of Deltarune.

The first two, not a proof of its physicality, merely a proof of its effects. Light is also visible and yet you cannot "touch" it. Deltarune: not inherently canon to Undertale. Besides, if it were physical, there would have to be a hole in their physical bodies for it to sit in. Which is... I dunno, not exactly confirmed?

>Nowhere in this entry is what was extracted stated to be a substance, just that it was able to be extracted.

Hmm. It also didn't confirm nor deny that the soul is physical. Maybe we should just stop adhering to a single string of text from the game and drawing black and white conclusions from it? I believe that DT is a non-physical substance. As in, it's real, but somewhat phases through regular physical matter.

>The SOULs would have had to have been physical for the extraction to work

Eh, says who? DT is magic, magic is magic. Just extract the DT with magic.

>if one thing in the SOUL becomes physical and extractable when the SOUL becomes physical, then all things in the SOUL become physical and extractable

Everything magical, this includes whatever can be found within the souls, can also be explained as non-physical and elusive. Like, displaying the properties of physical objects, but nonetheless being able to phase through physical objects. This is how I explain the souls phasing, yet containing something that can be extracted. If DT is a liquid, it needs a container, else you won't be able to pull on its surface in order to make it phase, because, you know, liquids. So once you surround it with a magical shell, you can push it through any physical object with ease. And this is how I explain souls existing within the body, yet DT being extractable without, like, phasing through the floor and falling down to the Earth's core right away or some weird shit.

Essentially, the shell of the soul is held together thanks to the DT, while constraining the DT. This soul then levitates, having some sort of a "haptical bubble" around it (which you can use to explain TP charging in DR), that detects nearby obstacles, and makes the soul hover away from them (for whatever reason). But nonetheless, you can forcefully pull the soul through physical objects if you apply an appropriate force of say, 200 Newtons (else it wouldn't be able to sit within the body and just escape).

You know, I'm actually starting to like these discussions again. They help me worldbuild for my AU.

>She extracted the DT to make Monster SOULS last longer and make a vessel to absorb them. What exactly are you trying to say here?

I dunno. I was just responding to whatever you were babbling about.

>Frisk DT would've had to have increased past Asriel's in order for the situation to play out as it did.

Yeah. And now, it all depends on whether you view this as a problem or not. For me, this is problematic, so I sought to find an entirely different theory.

>While also ignoring multiple endings, making a glaring plot hole, and creating rules that don't have any basis in canon.

No endings ingnored or plot holes created, to my knowledge. Remind me if you disagree. As for the rules, heck, you were saying something about "physical traits?"

>I'm sorry, but I have to point out that it DOES break the pacifist ending, and almost all of the neutral endings.

Specify and I will address. I've already addressed everything you've said so far, meaning you've chosen to ignore that, since you're apparently still talking about it as if I haven't said anything at all. Your ignorance and hypocrisy baffles me. Or maybe you just forgot.

>If you want it to be taken as a credible view point, then yes you need proof and evidence.

I mean, there are so many UT theories without any proof that people just tend to believe, I don't think your point has any value. But sure, having proof is certainly a bonus. And idk if you've missed that, but my argument was that the simplicity of the entire system is what makes it superior to yours. Besides, at this point, we won't stumble upon any new miraculous proof within the game, we can only keep building models and comparing them. That's the only thing that is left for us to do here.

>Pacifist Ending - Cannot happen because DT cannot increase.

Psychological DT can.

>Flowey's mere existence - Cannot happen because DT cannot decrease.

Uh, whatchu on about? DT cannot be spontaneously procreated or lost. But it can still be extracted. Think of... water. Or any irl substance whatsoever for that matter.

If this is all that you have against my theory, then here you go, no flaws. You really, REALLY think I would leave such stupidly big holes in my theory? I've got the entire game pretty much memorized at this point. If you think you've found a flaw in my theory, the chances are, you've probably just misunderstood what I've said. Or forgot.

>First, please explain how DT=/=SP is more complicated.

You're assuming that the same thing is actually two different phenomena. Occam's razor 101.

>I simply take what I have and see, and try to come up with the most sound and logical way they can work.

I mean, don't we all?

>I see no correlation with DT and SP, even after digging around - without hacking of course, since I have no means of doing that - so I don't correlate the two.

How strange, I do. Monsters - low soul power (many are needed to equate one H.S.) and low DT (can change, can directly manufacture DT, but that comes at a cost, and still might not match a human soul). Humans - high soul power, high DT (cannot change, though their psychology can, through which they can utilize this DT).

>DT and other emotions are no different from one another here in the real world, so why should I assume they are in the game if there's no confirmation of it in the game?

I'm mainly assuming that what the game didn't specify, the real world can explain. So DT being an actual substance is the peculiarity here, not the other way around. Heck, there's no "DT" in the real world anyways, it's just a mix of the survival instinct and our desire to do stuff, to avoid boredom. And DT wasn't labeled to be a trait. If it were, I'd argue that the other traits can display the same properties as DT, just like you are. But DT hasn't been confirmed to be a soul trait.

>I just use basic logic and deductive reasoning.

Well apparently, you don't. I think I've already mentioned this. DT isn't confirmed to be a trait, and the 6 traits aren't confirmed to be extractable, or even variable for that matter. So what you're claiming about the 6 known traits is bs. Basically, the only thing that DT shares in common with the 6 traits is that it's found within the soul. But so is the essence, and the essence isn't a trait, is it?

So then, what is your logic? What is your argument that DT is the red soul trait? That Frisk is determined? All the humans that fell down have been confirmed to be able to reset, so I'm assuming they could save and load too (I mean, it would be weird if they had the stronger variant of the spacetime power, but not the weaker variant, right?), and despite not being confirmed to have ever used the refuse ability, it's not denied either. And in fact, as I've said last time, they, unlike Frisk, didn't even need to utilize this ability, so it's not even an argument.

In other words, there's no reason to tie Frisk to DT more than to tie any of the other children to it, there's NO CORRELATION between DT and the red trait. Finally, Asriel. Idk what you keep babbling about, but Frisk's DT didn't fluctuate. That's not how they defeated Asriel. They've defeated him by convincing him to stop on his own, so there was no need for their DT to fluctuate. Aside from being a literal deux ex machina that Toby probably wouldn't go for, considering how much thought he's put to all other aspects of the game. But even if you're right, there's no proof that this was unique to Frisk. Maybe the other kids could do the same thanks to their DT, but given their situation, they've never received the right impulse to get so determined.

Thank you for listening to my TED talk.

>A metric cannot change no matter what, and both of these events are clear violations of that metric, with or without a clear number of monsters.

Hence why I proceeded to merge this with my theory of how they work biologically, which already offered an explanation for the DT flux thing, a psychological explanation. While keeping the actual physical DT unchanging (unless utilized for magical spells of course).

>There is also the fact that Frisk still has control of the timeline, and not GoHD Asriel, who had more DT than he did as Omega Flowey (and yet didn't regain SAVE, when he did as Omega Flowey)

Yeah yeah, I've only heard that a hundred times. Frisk isn't in control of the timeline, because them reloading or resetting in-mid battle rather seems like a plot hole, considering this wasn't the case when Flowey had only 6 souls and the deus ex machina I've explained above, and on top of that, this not being ratified at all with Flowey having something to say about it, which he should. Everything just becomes so weird and contradictive if we allow this process to be canon. Heck, Occam's razor. Leave it out, things will get simplified, and nothing will get broken. Because Flowey doesn't address this, disregarding this as canon won't change anything, and it will simplify everything else.

TEDx supplement.

>Trait are, literally, completely psychological.

The soul isn't. And the soul has traits. They exist as both, magic and psychology. Make it clear which one you're talking about next time.

>That is literally what everything here in these forums are: opinions! And don't call me dearie!

Mhm, so much for your point that having no proof for my theory makes it bad.

>When in the PURPLE SOUL MODE you go through the same patterns and scenarios, with no differences or alterations to each one you go through.

I mean... the same can be said about a lot of monsters, no? Especially Sans, whose attacks literally don't vary in the slightest.

>Pink Names and Mad Dummy - Monsters ARE aware of the battle system and the basics of the mechanics - mainly fight and mercy if this was anything to go by. They can clearly affect the HUD, so it doesn't seem farfetched that they just did exactly as the actions imply: they took the yellow names, threw them out, and replaced them.

So, let's make this clear once and for all, they know about the existence of your HUD. That's what you're saying. They know about your options, about your buttons, etc. Since why else would they carry these around you? Maybe, it's because they all experience the HUD, hence why they carry these with them? Tell me what does your reasoning imply.

>F4 - It's been replaced by a Froggit that explains changing borders in the Switch Version. But, sticking to the F4 thing, it is played for a joke, so without the meta meaning I count it as just that: a joke.

No no no no no no. No jokes. Everything is canon. Else I'm right, there's no meta at all, because we can just disregard whatever we want. Try harder.

>Chara in Sans Fight - Simply them saying that it's not worth the time to read. Nothing much else.

Do they have a keyboard to type on?

>If it's played as a joke, and not explicitly mentioned or abused by a character afterwards. Then it's either played off as a joke, or just not something that happened. (If something random happens and it's commented on by someone, then it happened. If not and no one acknowledges it even happened, then it didn't happen.)

Thaaaaat's nitpicking. Either go big or go home. I mean, you obviously hate the meta, else you wouldn't be nitpicking it like that. You would rather be taking it all in like a man. Besides, isn't that last sentence basically saying that Frisk never reloaded during Asriel's fight (even though we did), simply because nobody acknowledges it? I mean, that thing we did was pretty meta after all, so I reckon it belongs to this category of random stuff that has happened, but probably shouldn't be taken seriously, and rather as a joke, or in this case, a plot hole.

>Obviously, but what's so blatantly obvious there (Red SOULS and the Players connection) was also heavily implied and hinted in Undertale.

Yep. So, level 3 meta it is then?

>The first one is literally WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYNG THIS ENTIRE DAMN TIME!

HUD isn't a sensible modification. It's closer to how a game would function than anything else. Just the buttons solely imply an intelligent design.

>I have the right to say what my creation is, make it the way I want it, and define it the way I want to. What you say does not matter in that case. I'm the creator, my word is law, what I say goes, and that's that.

No. The scientific community is not going to turn around on its head just because some game developer has proclaimed that universes, which look exactly like a game, yet aren't a game, might exist. I'm saying this because I want to make sense of Undertale. To make sense of things, we must assume real-world logic. Else we can just go back to Undertale's code and Toby's tweets to seek answers, if logic cannot help us. And so, if we wanna use real-world logic to worldbuild Undertale further, we must drop this meta charade and acknowledge the world for what it actually is. Does it look like a game, and it hasn't been confirmed nor denied that it is one? It most likely is a game, either to us, or to some meta-canon space overlords, purely because of Occam's razor.

You're telling me that it looks like a game, nothing confirms that it cannot be a game, yet it isn't a game, but rather something that's probably not even defined by the scientific community yet?

You're holding an orange in front of me and calling it a banana.

>Do you see how pretentious you're sounding yet? And also why I said that you must not have any fun or enjoyment watching any show, cartoon, or movie, or playing any game?

I just disregard the meta because it's nonsense. The characters don't know about us. So if we wanna think of them as living their own lives in some variation of our own reality out there, we must disassociate them from our own reality first.

>unless you do what he wants and reset.

He could congratulate you for that at least, but alright, what about reloading in that scenario?