Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-31536324-20190116024909

">A problem is a problem, Tssykx-No matter how small. Relativity was made to solve a very small problem, and it turned out to be right. We need EVERYTHING to be correct.

Every UT theory is destined to fail according to this mantra. If you really want a complete explanation, the simulation hypothesis is the simplest one of them all which addresses everything."

If by "addressing everything" you mean ignoring most of everything, making up new rules just to fit a not-plot hole, and disregarding in game evidence. Then yes, it does exactly that.

"If you don't favor it, stick to your metaverse explanation and come up with whatever ad hoc rules you can whenever you come by a flaw in your theory. That's what I'm doing after all, except disregarding the meta as something that actually happens. In my humble opinion, the simulation hypothesis is the best of the three. But you don't have to agree with that."

Using in game evidence and proof to come up with explanations is not "ad hoc"-ing anything. You're the only one that's been doing that. Stop being a hypocrite.

">Why can't the cuttoff for REFUSE then be at 7, or 7.5? That puts Frisk clearly unable to REGUSE during OF, and clearly able to in Asriel's fight with DT left over.

If that's your head canon for how soul power works, sure. I don't believe in any cutoffs for example. I've solved it by splicing DT into two distinct phenomena."

You solved nothing.

Determination and SOUL Power are not the same thing, there is NOTHING in the game that points to the two being the same thing, and the two being the same thing only creates problems that break the game's narrative.

SP CANNOT increase or decrease in any manner, otherwise it breaks the established PROVEN metric. Determination clearly fluctuates, increases and decreases, and is put into situation where INCREASES and DECREASES in it are crucial for the events at hand.

The SHS had their DT extracted and given to the Amalgamates and Flowey - a decrease.

Flowey absorbed the SHS and gained their DT in a successful gambit to outs Frisk as the most determined being in the Underground - an increase.

Flowey absorbed both the SHS and NAMS to become Asriel again, and gained 7 HS worth of DT in another - unsuccessful - gambit to outs Frisk - another increase.

Asriel outright stated that the more Frisk died, the more their friends forgot, and directly implied that the more they forgot the more DT Frisk lost until they'd die and SAVE would go back to him. A clear situation where decreasing DT is outright possible and HAPPENING.

This was all thought up by simply looking at in-game information, and applying simple logic and reason. DT and SP cannot be the same thing, because the game clearly shows that it can increase and decrease.

You also contradict yourself here: whether it's a substance or not, by having DT be what increases and decreases, you still break the metric that SP is bound to. SP is what cannot increase or decrease, no matter what, and by having the clearly increasable and decreasable DT be the same thing as the rigid SP, the metric PROVEN IN-GAME is rendered false.

"At least that's less arbitrary than some absolutely concrete and exact cutoff. You could say I tend to avoid the procreation of arbitrary if-else statements concerning the theories I make."

You DO know that our theories are supposed to FIT the narrative and world of Undertale, right? Not make it fir our theories.

">And it can be used to perform all kinds of feats. But it doesn't actually go away when used.

Or maybe it does."

Then it can clearly decrease, and thus not be SP, because it shouldn't do that.

"To connect this with what I said above, the two components I think are present are the psychological feeling of being determined and the magical DT substance."

Why can't the same be also said for the other traits? Need I remind you of the SOUL MODES (or attacks in the case of Orange/Bravery and Cyan/Patience), which directly imply that each trait has a magical power to them - and thus a substance by extension, since DT is also a psychological feeling that has power.

"The first one experiences fluctuations and allocates the second one, which is the one that does the actual magic, can be drained, and replenishes through whatever regenerative process that doesn't break entropy."

In other words, DT cannot be SP, thank you for disproving yourself. Also, again, it definitely sounds like the same can be said for the other traits. (SOUL MODES and Attacks, remember?)

"And all of this stems from my head canon that the humans' bodies are what makes them function, with the soul working as an extra unit in there, somewhat unifying many different parts and aspects of the human body under one system."

The SOUL is the culmination of your entire being, it IS you. What happens to it that results in destruction will result in the death of the body. Whatever happens to the body that results in it's death will result in the SOUL just being left there outside the now dead body - or destruction. That's the relationship between the human body and the SOUL.

">Really, it wasn't important at all.

Just like any of his other comments? I'm sorry, but given the situation, I think addressing the event after it had occured would have been rather a major story-telling priority for Toby himself."

Not really. Of course he'd remember, but it would be redundant to lampshade it since there is literally no other way for things to go at that point, and both he and Frisk already know it all. His other comments were just him ribbing Frisk and giving his two cents. He's a spectator now, and so long as he's on the side lines he's going to comment. That simple really.

"Consider resetting right after Asriel regains his emotions, but before the barrier breaks. If it's true that true reset, the thing that makes even Flowey forget, is just what the reset power mutates into after the barrier breaks, then Asriel should still remember all of this. Boy wouldn't that make for a rather awkward situation, when Asriel realizes he's Flowey again and he's about to attack all of Frisk's friends? After becoming regretful of his past mistakes once again?"

Saving at that point is impossible, as stated by this line: "Can't move your body. Nothing happened. You struggle... Nothing happened. You tried to reach your SAVE file. Nothing happened. You tried again to reach your SAVE file. Nothing happened. Seems SAVING the game really is impossible … But... Maybe, with what little power you have... You can SAVE something else."

"He should feel betrayed by us at the very least. I can list lots of things he could say about our act of reloading or resetting during this entire period, which would range from confusion, to congratulations, and including betrayal."

You are not Flowey, and the fact that Toby STILL hasn't changed it - and you cannot use laziness as an excuse given all of the changes done over the years AND Deltarune - that means that this IS how things are supposed to go.

"There's also the theory which strictly sticks to the canon, and that is, that it's Chara who dictates who loses their memories and who doesn't, which could explain this situation. But it also raises so many different questions, I won't consider this alternative for even a second."

This is literally the first time I've heard this, so I'm not considering it either.

"In conclusion, I think Toby just forgot to address this entire part. He implemented the mechanic of a stuck timeline for Omega Flowey, but forgot to realize what it would cause to not implement it for Asriel's battle, nor giving Flowey any post-event comments. I really feel like Flowey would have a lot to say about the entire fight."

Again, you are not Flowey, nor are you Toby.

">The episode, Your World is an Illusion, canonizes that the world itself is a cartoon and not real in the sense that we know it. But my original point of the world working the way it does because that's how it naturally works still holds up even with this."

Well then, it has a creator, and is also watched by someone. This doesn't differ that much from my postulation regarding Undertale, that it is canonically a game, and therefore has a creator and a player. Of course, we can always break the meta by saying that the creator and the player are an actual entity within the universe, and not just something that's interacting with the universe through the 4th wall. Either is better than saying that this is how the world simply functions. A quark may just poof into existence, but an egg can't. Egg needs a chicken. If you get my analogy."

Mostly agreed. Although that still means that that is the way the world naturally works, since it was literally made that way. Any scientific explanation would just be trying to explain how it all works in a real world sense.

Even then though, the game is literally said to have a "life" of it's own, as stated by Flowey's last speech. Separate from the Player/Anomaly.

My interpretation is that the world was made as a "game" by a higher being, and is "played" by other higher beings. Where, despite the game-like nature, it's still a natural universe among the sea of infinite universes born of infinite possibilities.

">Futurama. A show where the main characters are very aware that they are a cartoon, but still live and follow the rules of their world because that's how their world operates.

I don't remember something like that ever being mentioned. But even if, it was probably just a joke that wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Even Family Guy breaks the 4th wall occassionally, but most of the time, it just seems to be doing its own thing. In other words, I'm looking for consistency. If the show or game or movie or whatever prefers jokes over realism and is quite erratic with its meta japes, then there's a chance that whatever you saw probably wasn't canon to the main story line. Example: Treehouse of Horror episodes from The Simpsons. Those definitely aren't canon."

Fair enough, a better example on my part would be Ed, Edd, and Eddy, or Chowder, or even The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. All of which are shows that not only joked, but referenced, lampshaded, and even openly acknowledged that they were cartoons MORE THAN ONCE. And none of them - with the major exception of Chowder and slight exception of EE&E, which started doing it fairly early on - were doing that until way late into their runs.

"In light of this, I'd like to introduce the meta meter, a convenient method of talking about whatever meta:

0: Ignore the meta, it's either just a joke, or a non-canon mechanic resulting from the limitations of the medium conveying the information (e.g. Toby's lack of skills regarding certain elements of game design). This category also contains all the universes, whose laws differ, but are still somewhat faithful to our own (e.g. time travel - not possible, yet not too abstract at the same time either)."

First: stop being pretentious.

Second: Back to the Future would like a word with you.

"1: Augmented reality. Anything is possible, but that's okay, because the next layer up is strictly rational, so the meta still isn't real yet."

Okay.

2: Anything is possible, yet it's real. In the special case that the craziness of it all actually does begin to imply a computer simulation (i.e. level 1), make sure to strictly deny that. Since Undertale doesn't do this, you basically are left with no choice but to degrade Undertale from this level back to level 1, because you have no proof for this level, for it working like some surreal "looks-exactly-like-a-game-yet-isn't-a-game" reality."

Except for the fact that Flowey literally says that Frisk has their own life at the end.

"3: Breaks the 4th wall. The moment this trope becomes canon, the world is immediately reduced to being canonically nothing more than what its own code entails. As for this making the story feel pointless, that is sadly the cost of this assumption. Such games mostly aim to impress, rather than to entertain through a crafty plot. Which I feel was one of Toby's main goals with Undertale, to not think about the structure, consistency and the world he has created altogether all too much, and rather focus on the stuff that a "layman" will find entertaining, i.e. how the game makes you feel. Example: OneShot. Still though, Undertale provides no proof of this level, as all 4th wall breaking moments can be somewhat rationalized. Though I'm not so sure anymore when it comes to the Froggits."

This one is specifically WHY I'm against the simulation theory.

"4: Borders a story, a meta experience, and comedy. Ergo, it usually tends to break its own laws, and quite often too, and generally doesn't take itself all that seriously. Example: Family Guy, with its 4th wall jokes. Although, some form of continuity is still present.

5: The story and continuity tropes are completely discarded. They can appear, but only for entertainment purposes. Example: Cyanide and Happiness, or any other similar comic strips. Specifically, those cases where the characters are toying around with the layout of the comic itself. These last two levels are identical to level 3 in terms of meta, because there's only one type of 4th wall breaking. The only thing that varies between them is the amount of emphasis on story and continuity.

You're welcome to make any revisions to this scale."

I really like this, makes explaining a lot easier.

">Why must they be identical? Why can't we instead say that the physical substance is INSTEAD identical to the personality trait, and the soul trait is just decided by how everything is balanced?

Because for that, we must assume that the red trait is DT, which is a statement the game meticulously avoided to make. That's the main reason I sought other explanations."

Yet there is no other viable candidates.

">It seems simpler at first, but when you consider the ramifications, it's actually more complex and requires far more leaps of logic.

Another thing is that it seems unresonable for Frisk's soul to just jump in power as much as you're claiming. It seems like a cheap deux ex machina way below Toby's level."

First: How?

Second: Stop talking like you know Toby.

"I mean, sure, DT is strong, but this kinda defeats the charm of Asriel's final battle. It was a struggle for the fate of the world - who will hold control over the timeline. Not something that was won before it even began. If you find Frisk getting determined so much as to defeat a literal god "impressive," then I don't think I can really convince you of anything else. We're probably just tuned to different tastes, which affect our logical thinking. You find this a plausible scenario written by Toby, I don't."

Thing is though is that Frisk didn't actually BEAT Asriel. They simply had more DT than him. Asriel wanted to kill Frisk to regain control of the timeline, yet Frisk was still more determined than him. Since the more Frisk died, the more their friends forgot them, and the more their grip on the world slipped (i.e their determination decreases). By the time of the quote I mentioned earlier, their DT had gotten to the point where they were evenly matched with Asriel in terms of DT, and thus couldn't reach their SAVE file.

Like I said, I've dropped the "Reset during GoHD fight" thing as an argument, since I have the quote by Asriel and the narration from that fight.

"And since I headcanon that the body of humans functions like our own bodies, since, well, they are called "humans", with nothing implying that their biological vessels work differently from ours, I took the liberty of splitting DT into multiple parts according to this."

I refer you to my relationship outline earlier.

"I mean, how WOULD the body work otherwise? What are the humans, if so much of them is replaced by magical constructs?"

Huh?

"How exactly are we supposed to make sense of them? I simply use the real world for reference, so that I don't have to worldbuild any nonsense that probably won't make sense anyways, prompting me to make a BILLION more assumptions about how the world works in order to fix this.

See, that's another thing. Yes, if I do this, Asriel's battle will become slightly more complicated. But BOI will it simplify the amount of rules I must make up for the rest of the world! And in case you regard taking real-world mechanics and incorporating them into the story as "assuming things", then by all means, we can all just talk about how the world is canonically a game, about how Frisk is unable to progress past the pacifist ending due to the credits blocking their progress (just like in Glitchtale), about how aware the Froggits are of the player, et cetera. That way, we don't need assume anything more than what the game's code contains! Voila, 100% of the problems we're talking about here instantly solved."

Except that in-game information still makes your version of the Asriel fight under this assumption not possible. Your theory needs to work with the in-game information, not against or disregarding of it.

">So let's take this one step futher. What if we found what appeared to be game code, dug deeper, and found that these were merely a result of OTHER laws interacting in the right way, and came out of evolution?

By all means, if you can explain how souls came to be, I'd love to hear that. I'm especially interested in your take on the humans' biological bodies. Like, if we remove the physical DT from them, we're essentially removing epinephrine and dopamine from their bodies. What will be the replacement for that? If DT, then you better start thinking about how DT can function as a hormone & neurotransmitter."

What in the world are you talking about?

">The HUD is a result of SOULs and their magic.

It literally bends the world, constrains everyone into this pseudo setting where buttons and dialogue boxes manifest into existence and whatnot. If you can explain all of this naturally evolving, kudos to you."

Bending the world implies that the world existed without these things in the first place, which is what Glitchtale is doing.