Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20171109201657

TheHumanAmbassador wrote: Something I'd like to add about the boxed game (not necessarily the one the dog programmed)

The exact same game sprite was in the MTT news, as the video game you can report for the news. So the boxed game does indeed canonically exist within the world of Undertale. And since Flowey doesn't know about the events of the Pacifist Route beforehand, said game likely ISN'T Undertale either. Ok, so. Before I start, just lemme remind you, that a perfect Undertale theory might not be possible yet. Just as we're unable to construct a theory of everything irl due to a lack of information about our universe, we may not have enough knowledge to solve all the questions in Undertale. So your approach may still be wrong. We're trying to make sense out of things, but not by destryoing everything we've built so far if we can't solve something. Undertale is filled with many references, which are better off not discussed, since canonically, they make no sense. If you dismiss their canonical meaning in order to get rid of whatever paradoxes it creates, you're already constructing a headcanon. So paradoxes CAN be canon. You simply have to look the other way and stop caring about them.

Now, since Chara's name is on the stat menu, are you implying it is Chara who is in control, not Frisk? I'm pretty sure that since WE control Frisk, and WE control the resets, then Frisk controls the resets. That's what you claimed yourself after all, that Frisk is the player. Or the other way around. Can't remember. And I hope you're realizing that all of this has nothing to do with the genocide timeline.

And lemme repeat myself. The Annoying Dog does represent Toby. Not because of some proof we found in the game, but because of Toby's numerous hints at this. The stuff in the game merely supports this. So I've decided to say that it doesn't have a valid in-game explanation, if it wasn't intended to have it. So it's better if we not discuss it. Anything you propose to explain it better will be nothing but a headcanon of yours.

"they can remember absolutely everything about the universes' original form, make exact copies of everyone"

 I said it a long time ago, Chara doesn't destroy the world. The game doesn't erase its own files, it merely raises a completed genocide flag. This could be interpreted as Chara locking us out of the world. I do not believe that a mere ghost of someone, possessing Frisk's soul, is capable of doing this, while Frisk is for some reason not. And whatever that 999999999 may mean, I say it's the carried-out damage, not the dealt damage. These values start appearing long before that, striking many other enemies down, despite them having much lower health stats. So when Chara did that, aiming at the screen, who knows what really was the target, and how much HP was actually deducted.

 " Sans abuses it, so it can't NOT be canon."

Yes, it's canon. But it's code. Canonical code. Not just canonical, non-code physical laws; the physical laws ARE the code. Since there's no other way to make buttons appear out of nowhere, other than by utilizing some computer-generated imagery. I dare you, construct a theory that would explain this, without making it look like a computer code.

You can keep saying that it's physical laws, not game mechanics, but this doesn't change the principle. You have to change it manually, as I dared you. All I can say now is that for them, these ARE the physical laws of their universe, but unbeknownst to them, it's all code. And so, if they're not recognizing how similar it is to a normal computer code, then are they stupid, manipulated, or are they simply seeing it all differently?

Next, I don't think what the narration says is the reason why no one reacts to Chara's comments. They say pretty mean things about many creatures, and still no response. Only Napstablook and Tsunderplane react. Besides, if Chara could be heard, Toriel would have noticed, Asgore would have, Sans would have. No response. There's no way none of those couldn't notice. So if only some creatures can hear them, then why do you think Flowey could? Does he belong to the same special category? If yes, then why didn't he comment on it earlier?

" <span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">THIS is what the line would be referring to by the dog making a full game"

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> But Toby didn't make Earthbound. He takes 0 credit for it. So why should the game refer to it? Because the dog is not Toby? If the dog isn't Toby, then why are we talking about Earthbound in the first place? But if he is... then it can't be Earthbound.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And yeah, as I said already, I'm not basing my claim that the Annoying Dog represents Toby on what is in the game. I'm using multiple sources to verify that this is true. And you can claim that the room does exist, since it doesn't represent anything, but in reality, it represents Toby's work, and the dog represents Toby. I choose to merge the two approaches and so dismissed anything that seems too far-fetched to be "canon" with the rest of the storyline, unless it IS a part of the storyline. This makes way for the cleanest theories. We don't need to assume that the world doesn't exist just to keep stuff canon, but we shouldn't destroy all canon information just to make sense out of it either. It's a tradeoff, preserve canon info and destroy the spirit of the game, or destroy the canon info and preserve the spirit.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">I personally prefer destroying everything that isn't all that important, or can be explained differently, but I know my limits. While I don't think the monsters see the HUD the same way we do, since otherwise, it would imply the game is kinda aware that someone is playing it, as if it was constructed to fit that person, I think that the saves are a valid mechanic. Since that can be explained logically, without using code. You know, space-time mumbo jumbo and whatnot.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So to finish this, either, the HUD isn't a part of the inside universe, and all comments about it (eg. the Froggits, Sans) are meant for the player's eyes/ears only, OR, everything said about it is absolutely true, proving that the characters are either dumb, or manipulated, or aren't "real" (eg. created by code instead of being truly alive, implying that everything is just a simulated reality, kinda like in OneShot).

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Since I don't think Toby wanted to create a freaky existential-crisis-inducing game (like OneShot), I assume the opposite. That he did it purely for the story, for which, all of this paradox-inducing HUD stuff isn't really needed. And I am even willing to say that the characters said something different from what we've heard, since the game changed their dialogue to make it easier for US. Yes, I know, Toby said in the kickstarter that all of this is part of the inside world. And that's true, it is! But only WE are seeing it this way. For the characters, it isn't this way. That's what I meant.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">I mean, pick. Destroy the meaning of the game in order to preserve all canon info, or destroy the info in order to make the game meaningful. I've already refuted your claims that the world of UT works like a game, but all of it is just the mechanics of a completely normal universe, since that doesn't make any sense. That's like saying you've created a gluten-free gluten or something.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">(Boy, I like how this has turned into a philosophical discussion.)

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Face it, there is simply no way of saying that the HUD makes sense. Since it's so obvious that it all looks like a game interface. Saying that it's all code based is actually SIMPLER. And if it isn't, and the characters ARE perceiving it differently, then why not just accept what I said, that they perceive it as if there was no HUD for them at all? I mean, that's what you GET if you refuse the idea that it's all code-based. Of course, then we have Frisk. If the monsters perceive the HUD differently, then why can't Frisk be their own person, instead of just a tool again? Why can't the HUD look differently to everyone? What even IS the point in claiming that Frisk can see it, but no one else can, since for them, it doesn't exist? That's basically saying that the world is COMPLETELY normal, EXCEPT for Frisk.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Why though? Why have everything working out normally, except for one person? I already showed how not everything that Frisk does we have to do too, and sometimes, even though we choose a certain option, Frisk does something different.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">If Frisk truly is us, meaning, that they do see the world through the HUD, then why aren't we literally roleplaying them? Why can't we choose their name for example? This is the second biggest spoiler of the game by the way. Why would Toby choose to confuse everyone by making us name some other character instead of Frisk? Well... maybe he wanted to show that we actually aren't Frisk? That's something I've already proposed.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And I forgot to reply to your last paragraph. Well, let me just say this. It makes sense for the dog to be Toby and the room to be referring to his work (Undertale), if we decide to exclude the room from the world's continuity. After all, the room isn't really important to the story, and can only be accessed in a very weird way anyways. But if we choose to say that the room IS a part of the continuity, then there's no point in discussing any other real games, since then we MUST say that the room and the dog have no second meanings.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And I'm not sure why you're so keen on the idea that the game in the black box is the Earthbound hack. If we decide to exclude the room from the ingame universe, then we can say that it's Undertale no problem. But if this is all because of that sprite on the box, then remember, it's probably Flowey's white sprite. It doesn't really remind me of anything Earthbound-related.