Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-29788596-20160906011125/@comment-32182236-20200222142116

Nice to see a skeptic who's better at this than Mago.

Now it's my turn for a reply.

That's...technically false. It's like saying high inches allow you to reach the Oreos at the top of the fridge - like, yeah I guess that makes sense sort of BUT you would definitely never say that in real life.

Actually, that would be technically correct. the best kind of correct.

Who and where are those six monsters? We're on the Surface in this hypothetical.

Or at least you WOULD have done better than Mago if you looked at the entire context.

The hypothetical begins AFTER that. This was discussion about the Soulless Pacifist Ending. And I'll name those six monsters:Toriel, Asgore, Sans, Papyrus, Undyne, Alphys.

No it doesn't.

It does.. But only more than what Mago said. 1%>0%. Of course, the most likely interpretation is that the two of us are equals.

Makes sense, we start it, they finish it. We each do our part.

Chara had no control over who they latched on to. They also couldn't leave Frisk's body since their Determination was keeping them alive.

As I said, though, they're probably better off doing the exact OPPOSITE that we do.

And perhaps listening to Toriel the few times Chara actually gets to hear Toriel in earshot? Or the many monsters before they get killed by Frisk?

Who do you think Chara is? Alphys?

Wait...when did not killing people EVER get Flowey killed???

Okay, while you seem like you have more potential, first, we need to refresh your knowledge on Undertale itself.

Or perhaps this will be enough:Flowey is Asriel, and Asriel died because he didn't kill.

Specifically, the humans that attacked him. https://youtu.be/5tQ7G3eCtzI?t=2792

This is what I was referring to.

So we already KNOW the reason why he adopted that view. It's not because Jerry told him killing was good.

Again, LV is just a unit of measurement. It doesn't actually do anything, just like how inches are not actual things. LV =/> murderous, murderous => LV.

Should I say EXP, then? As that's what gives you the LV?

I've got a counter argument for this. You know how Frisk can't walk off cliffs in Hotland and drown in lava? Going back through the barrier right now would be trapping yourself inside the kingdom that thinks you just murdered their king. Self-preservation prevents where the player can go.

Perhaps. What remains is my other argument.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Asriel fight starts in Asgore's barrier room and ends in an L-shaped room. So yeah, we did change rooms.

We never get to walk around in Asgore's Barrier Room. They may very well be the same room. And if they're not, what's to say we weren't sent backwards instead of forwards? Backwards at least doesn't break the laws of physics.

You've got no proof they ARE killing people, though. Why would they start killing monsters if they know they can't leave?

..Alright, I think I came up with the full plan. And what a Xanatos Gambit it is..

There are two possible branches that occur within a Neutral Ending.


 * 1) Flowey is spared. He railroads us to Pacifist.
 * 2) Flowey is killed. Now Chara can safely kill Toriel and-

Wait.. Why can't we absorb Toriel's SOUL when we kill her in the RUINS?

..Even if we kill her, we still have to fight ASGORE to leave? And the SOUL just breaks? Frisk!! Absorb the SOUL so you can cross the Barrier! You learned last run that you need a Boss Monster SOUL! (When Alphys told us this)

..I think I've just discovered a paradox.

..Oh. Right. Your statement.

If Frisk crossed the Barrier, then Neutral is either a dead run, or Flowey will be worth enough to destroy humanity, and there's no need to kill the rest.

If Neutral is a dead run, then either Flowey railroads them into Pacifist, or Chara can go around killing monsters, and perhaps even destroy the world again, to force a restart.

So Chara could be killing monsters to gather enough LV to destroy the Underground again.

And we already know they planned to six monsters in Pacifist. Thankfully, you provided a way that it COULD make sense for them to do it in Pacifist and not in Neutral. So I'll leave the possibility open for them to not be killing in Neutral.

Oh, come the fuck on.

It's true that Frisk doesn't have that power at LV20, though. We need some explanation for why Chara has it and Frisk doesn't.

Flowey breaks our SAVE file quite physically. I think Chara can SLASH a SAVE file.

What happens when you slash a SAVE file? You erase their SAVE so that only yours remains. That doesn't destroy the world. Flowey didn't destroy the world when he destroyed your SAVE. So Chara erasing your save would also not destroy the world.

I think I remember you proposed that Chara had destroyed our SAVE file at the same time they destroyed the world.

That would explain why there's no file for us to reload, and why we can't unerase the world.

I chuckled because Mago had been proposing the SAVE-destroying theory as the way in which Chara destroyed the world FOR THE WHOLE THREAD.

Yet Flowey proves this idea wrong.

Semantics. Did inches give me Oreos?

It gave you the ability to reach the Oreos, just as LV gave Chara the ability to destroy the world.

Heheh. You just admitted that LV gave them power.

Chara did make it very clear.. And we know they didn't destory the world until after they killed off Sans, Asgore, and Flowey, which gave them LV.

Which means they can feel LV.

They ARE the feeling of LV.

Which means Frisk and Chara share LV.

Wait, couldn't Chara have gotten it from Sans and-

...Right.. Chara wasn't able to attack monsters until the Sans fight, at LV19.. Meaning that it DID come from our LV, and not their own..

Think about it - if Chara was always LV 20, they always had the power. If they were always LV 1, they never get the power. Their LV MUST change with ours.

Oh, you beat me to it. Nice job. Now to respond to the bit I missed.

Which means corrrruption!

I can easily reset at LV20.

Let's see, LV is how much you distance yourself from others. Makes it easier to hurt, and harder to get hurt. (And to keep the analogy going, increases the capacity you can be hurt by)

Therefore, Chara getting high LV means they'll be more distant.

Do we see this? Well, they certainly become more distant from us, and much more focused on their goal. The flavor text starts diminishing, with it being more and more focused on finishing the job.

And by the end? Well..

"Nothing useful."-Chara

Though it's only distancing yourself from OTHERS. Objects apparently don't count.

"No chocolate."-Chara

But is this actually corruption?

I wouldn't say so.

All it takes is sparing one unique monster, and suddenly, they stop. Rather strange if LV was responsible for it all.

What makes them stop is if you fail to kill a unique encounter. Then, they're back to normal.

So their focus on the job isn't really dependent on LV after all.

The "Let's finish the job" happens around LV4. Yet you can reach LV15 on a Neutral Run and have no "corruption" happen.

This isn't LV corruption. It's something else.

Oh, and - 3 is an argument from silence and at LV 19 or lower, they don't have a reason to destroy the world. Sorry for your logic thread.

Only your first claim is valid. The second is false. Their mission was to destroy the world-Thus, they do have a reason to destroy the world, even at LV1.

Yet they don't. Which means they can't.

How much EXP do you think Flowey gives?????

Enough to give Chara the ability to destroy the world, as they do that right after killing Flowey?

If we don't know that Flowey destroys the SOUL, we could try and take it.

And fail.

And we don't 'need the Flowey bit', what are you talking about?

You know, the bit about Flowey propelling us beyond the Barrier? Or do you have another explanation on how we crossed it?