Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20171213151556/@comment-32182236-20180205105209

And I have returned!

"Not monitored by it implies the USDA is a thing where the story is happening. According to your logic, that line could have read "Not monitored by the Capitol of Panem" and it would not mean the story is taking place in the Hunger Games universe. Just because it includes a negative. And if we want to be nitpicky, the humans looked nothing like the native americans."

Read the post more carefully. I said the USDA didn't exist when the monsters were first banished underground. Of course the USDA exists in Undertale's universe-Otherwise it couldn't be referenced! But, since the war happened long before then, prior to the USDA, the USDA couldn't have monitored these foreign vegetables. Hence, the text makes sense. It's not monitored by the USDA because monsters were banished prior to their existence. Therefore, Vegetoid was NOT monitored by the USDA. The two never coexisted in the same place.

Also, how were they not like Native Americans? The art wasn't exactly in color, so it's not like we got their colors wrong...

"My point is, these things, as well as the name of their world, is not a convincing argument. It could still be any fictional world possible. The only thing that will definitely prove that it's our world is a name. For example: America, China, Ireland."

Well, if the ages progressed accurately like they appeared to be, then they should have progressed similarly to us. Also, I found more evidence placing the war centuries ago-Well technically, it places CHARA centuries ago. It's flat-out mentioned that Chara came from a home village. Village. As in, Middle Age villages, instead of towns and neighborhoods!

"As I said, it would be weird if Asriel carried them all the way to the castle. Despite what the monsters said. I specifically think that their words should be taken with a grain of salt. After all, they somehow knew what happened at the surface too."

Asriel probably told them on the way to the castle. Alas, since we're hearing it from the monsters' understanding of Ariel's one-sided perspective of the story, that leaves plenty of room for error.

"I don't know. But it makes more sense if they entered from the New Home end. If this is the only piece of evidence you have for this, then I don't know if I can accept it. Everything else seems to be suggesting the contrary."

That's assuming the evidence does indeed suggest so. I argue they do not suggest the contrary at all-We're still debating that.

"Ah, I get your point. The thing is, no one was "late". If so few monsters survived, they would move as one mass, as far away from the barrier as possible. Eventually, they would all reach the same area - the Ruins, and establish their first city there. As for the entrance to the Ruins, that was made to halt the humans. That's canon."

Where does it say that's what it was made for? All I see is the Delta Rune on it, and that could mean just about anything. (Likely it's just the monsters' symbol again, like with Asgore's cape)

"And if anyone wanted to venture past the Ruins, they could. I hypothesize that that's why that door was there. To allow passage if perhaps a human fell down so that they could all flee."

Didn't you just say before the door was supposed to STOP the humans? If the door was created after all the monsters fled to the Ruins, and first moved in there to keep the humans out, then how did Toriel leave to the Ruins? The door had to have been built after Toriel left.

"And as for why is it in the royal home, well, the boss monsters are one of the strongest ones, right? If a human wanted to get through, they would first have to deal with Asgore. It's not really about architecture."

...Yeah, it kind of is. And why wait until Toriel left and it's been proven that a human can fall into the Ruins as an entrance to make the door one-way, and choose to let the humans out of the Ruins but not back?

"Okay. So you know that aliens won't come, because none came so far. But you don't deny the fact that if they would, nothing would stop them, right? I mean, it's not like we've built a giant force field around our planet."

Actually, because aliens likely don't exist. We've never seen one. Ever. In fact, the conditions required for life are so strict that we're probably the only intelligent life in the galaxy. So.. for an alien to come by..? Let's wait 100,000 years-That's still smaller than the time it would take at light-speed. And we're not certain-Speculation about aliens coming to Earth are still there...

"In the plaques it was however said, that the underground has no entrances or exits. Therefore, they knew, because there literally wasn't any free passage anywhere. That's the deal here."

Which contradicts the hole that was literally used to banish the monsters underground. And NOBODY thought "oh, if there's no entrances, then how did we end up here?" ...Yeah.. too far-fetched.

"Not all do. Some straight up contradict each other."

List the contradictions, then. I haven't spotted a single one. Here's the paraphrased version I've come up with, but check out the actual plaques, because of course you won't find a contradiction in my paraphrased version, it's the way I interpreted it, after all! Here's how I see it, though.

-Long ago, two races ruled over earth. One day, the humans attacked. But why? After all, humans are incredibly strong-It'd take nearly every monster SOUL just to equal the power of one human SOUL! So, then.. Why did they attack? Ironically, it's because of their strength of persisting after death.. For a monster can absorb it, and gain incredible power. *picture of the monster* There's no counter for this either. This is why the humans feared us. So, they declared war, we surrendered to the humans, they made a barrier with seven wizards. There is one way to break the spell-With the power equivalent to seven human SOULs, we can shatter the barrier and be free. But, this will never happen, as another human will never fall, due to the lack of entrances or exits. We'll be trapped here forever."

Coherent story, except for the fact that whoever wrote them's clearly crazy, because there is an entrance-The same entrance they got here from!

"And amidst that battle, they scanned the entire mountain for holes because LOL WHY NOT. Right?"

It was at the end, when they surrendered to the humans.

"Carve it into the mountain then. And it could be literally a meter wide only even if it was made in the air out of some material."

Still need building material. And it can't be a meter wide-The slope would be too steep! 1 meter wide for a MILE high? That's more steep than 89 degrees!

"Yes, they arrived at the end of 201X, but who? Chara, or everyone else? Since Chara never permanently lived in Home, that means they were transferred to New Home right away. Why though? Perhaps because everyone else was already there. And if that's the case, then we can only wonder WHEN did everyone arrive to New Home really. My guess would be some time around the end of 201X, but a bit earlier. If they all moved too early, no one would find Chara."

Chara AND everyone else. Chara arrived in the MIDDLE of 201X, while the monsters were already on the journey. Perhaps Chara even fell just as the monsters were departing from Home, giving Asriel a chance to find them.

"But then, what does the calendar from the beginning of 201X signify? My guess would be the date the calendars stopped being manufactured in Home. It's most likely not the date they all departed, as the journey couldn't have taken them that long."

It could have, because of that giant cliff.

"So then, why was that calendar stuck at the beginning of 201X, if they all moved out much later than that? My theory is, that this calendar's end was at the beginning of 201X. Not because it was from that year, but because it was from the previous year. Many calendars include a few months of the following year inside them.

And maybe the monsters did this because they knew they will move out soon, so they only printed a few extra months from 201X along with the previous year and then started preparing for the move."

...You do know that at this point, monsters had 1980's level technology, as signified by Toriel's phone, right? They could make calendars quite quickly. Besides, if preparation was going to take that long, so it'd be until the end of the year before they move, why only give the first few months? Why not give out the rest of the year if they won't be moving until the end?

"You have no proof for that. And quite on the contrary, Alphys does. Metatton is also an entertainer. All of this is just for entertainment. Imagine a life without enternainment. They would go crazy. They can't work non-stop. No one can. They're not robots. Those things can. But there is no mention of monsters being exceedingly good at hard labour. None."

Alphas found anime from humans and started watching it, becoming the first monster nerd. She then created Mettaton, the monsters' only celebrity. Also, I didn't say hard labor. I said scientific research. Two different things. Entertainment was barely a thing in ancient times-It was there, but not so commonplace-They were special events that one had to actually physically walk over there to see. They weren't going crazy then. Same thing with monsters.

"No, it's wrong because it's nonsensical. How can a society advance if it never develops writing? Oh wait, they do have books! So then, how come some of them aren't scientific? Such as crosswords? How come some of them are made for entertainment?"

Because they ran out of room for the news. They had to fill it with something. Besides, this was AFTER the rise of Mettaton. During the Gaster Era, things were much different. ...No wonder monsters have been stagnating in technology since Gaster fell, if they've moved on to entertainment too.

"It's kinda silly to assume that such thing would be made by a single person only, a single royal scientist. So again, how did Asgore figure out that the blueprints, the CORE and everything else was all made by a single person only? Why can't there be two royal scientists? Or more? Perhaps an entire team? Explain. Prove."

Same handwriting. Done.

"Is THAT your headcanon? No wonder you're so stubborn all the time."

Gaster Follower literally calls his intelligence irreplaceable.

"As for Sans and Papyrus, there's no visible connection between them and Gaster to the others, and it's not like Sans would have let anyone into his secret room."

There were still "others". Remember the people you don't recognize?

"If Sans wanted to spread the awareness, he wouldn't be slacking off all the time."

Who said Sans told them? He didn't. My argument for the "don't forget" is-Why would Sans need to keep that? Why would he need a photo not to forget those that he worked with, if it wasn't someone who was erased from the timeline?

"As for the Snowdin shopkeeper, all that she can think about all of this is that they came from a different part of the underground. That would be the most rational and the most plausible explanation to her."

That's not what she said though. She said they just showed up one day. As in, they came out of nowhere. This only makes sense if their origin (Gaster) was erased from the timeline, leaving Sans and Papyrus with no origin-Making it so they literally appeared out of nowhere.

"The monsters attacked you not because they thought you're a human. As we know, attacks are common way of communication in the underground (recall the birthday card), so all of this could be taken as a normal attempt at a conversation."

Um... "You are the first human to have fallen in a long time"-Toriel

"NO! YOU ARE A HUMAN! I MUST CAPTURE YOU!"- Papyrus"

"so. You're a human, huh? That's hilarious."- sans

Undone recognuxes you as a human and literally says she'll take your SOUL to Ashore and set monsters free. Ashore lead you to battle him because you're a human. Mettaton cals you a human, and so does Alphas. They all knew this and knowingly tried to kill you. (Except for Toriel. But my point is they knew you were human.)

Also, there were sections. This particular sections was about how monsters DID indeed want to kill you-Gaster was in the prior section. ...Maybe we should start labeling the sections, and dividing them up so we don't get mixed up. By the way, the proof they forgot Gaster is what I'm discussing right now.

"That's right. Imagine Asgore walking over to his microphone and then proceeding to explain the secrets of determination to the entire monsterkind."

Why Asgore? I visualize Gaster doing it.

"If anything, Gaster should have been a bit popularized in literature, kinda like Tesla. Tesla figured out how to create an alternating current generator. My guess is, that Gaster is known. But tell me, how often did YOU hear Tesla's name mentioned in the public? Is it really a worthy conversation to have with strangers?"

Tesla? Alright, then nobody except for Alphys the science nerd would mention him. ...Um, I said EXCEPT for Alphys. ...Alphys, that's your cue? Alphys? There's no reference to Faster by Alphys. And she's a science nerd, she would mention Gaster.

"I don't think she's mentally labile, no."

She went to taking pride in being the Royal Scientist to beliving she's literally garbage, to becoming a scientist again at the lab, to inserting herself into your story, to finally revealing the truth of the Amalgamates... Yeah, she's labile.

"So tell me, why should the monsters feel enthusiastic over someone very very brilliant, who is however very very dead for a very very long time, up to the point of talking about them with a complete stranger?"

At least Alphys should because she's a nerd.

"... which one is it then? >Not A, but A ... ???"

Nice catch there. I meant there's no proof that Toriel left before, she left AFTER the second human fell, and that's when the second child died in the Ruins. Since Toriel was in New Home when the child died, and went to Asgore, which lead to Toriel leaving because "you could have done it with ONE SOUL", she wasn't protecting the child. That's why she didn't mention the human in "They come. They leave. They die."

"There is one very obvious explanation for this. Can you guess?"

...It went back to the Ruins before the door was made after Toriel left? That's the only one I can think of. Though that's probably not obvious enough. Alright, my REAL guess is one that I'll be debunking now.

My guess is "Oh, the human dropped it because he found something better!"

...Okay then, how did that "something better" get back to the Ruins if the door was only one-way? You're just shifting the problem, not resolving it.

"And the Ruins ARE in Ruins. They're practically falling apart. As for Home, it could have been partially rebuilt prior to the monsters deciding that they will move."

...I don't see ONE destroyed building or even one destroyed room.

"Then they too would kill a human and begin their own civil war. And in the end they would all live happily on an empty surface! This is good, I suggest you turn this into a fanfiction."

Fanfiction? There's a place for fanfiction here? I don't see it. I guess it would be grouped under Fun and Games..? (...It would be my first one, though. Yeah, I'm not counting my recap of the game as a fanfic.)

"Or they wouldn't, because of Toriel. We see her acting completely normally, even allowing Asgore to work for her. How strange."

Not really. Remember, Toriel left because Ashore kept waiting around for seven humans to fall instead of just going to the surface with ONE human SOUL. Now that the monsters actually went through with their plan... This could have brought Ashore back. The real question would be why Asgore isn't still the king, though that's a mystery for both sides of this discussion.

"Also, about Toriel, I don't think she would ever stand for the deaths of innocent people that fall down just because of Asgore's cowardice."

Correction: She wouldn't stand for Asgore just waiting around and keeping monsters underground for many extra centuries waiting for an extra six SOULS... just because of Asgore's cowardice. Also, maybe Tories figured Asgore would have thought it over.. "Hmm, I have one human SOUL.. The humans are from the Surface.. I can go there and be powerful enough to take more!" But instead, it was more like.. "Nah, I'll just wait for six more because I'm a coward."

"Did you really think Toby wanted us to ignore everything he said about the game himself? Everything? He only said it because people were starting to take everything he posted too literally."

And now you're doing the same by taking his posts as literally canon.

"Of course, it's impossible to tell so in the case they're trolling, e.g. saying something in such a way that you're led to believe they stand for the opposite of what they really mean. That's not even deception, that's the definition of trolling. But Toby never did that. I've never seen him troll others. Just joke about stuff."

He's just as much of a troll as Scott Cawthon. In the same way, too.

"So, if you're sure that a person isn't trolling (so that Poe's law doesn't apply), then use rational thinking. If something is too absurd, then it's most likely a joke."

We're not sure he isn't trolling. Poe's law does apply here, that's what I'm trying to say. That Poet's law applies here.

"Lastly, about merchandise, that has been confirmed not to be canon."

It's still official, and the question was about official merchandise. Of course it's not canon, how can a tarot card be canon to an RPG universe?