Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-31536324-20180909192137

Well, then you are blind. And I can't fix that, sorry.

You're the one who's blind, not me. SOUL Power is not mentioned in the plaques, that's all there is to it. "Ah! You speak like my idiotic classmates. No, I assure you, you are not a mirror, you don't reflect any light rays, you let them pass straight through, because there isn't enough gray matter in your entire brain to force them to get absorbed while passing through."

Oy vey.

"Of course, 1+0 is 0 according to you! No, why should we pay attention to those 90 something neutral routes, when in a single pacifist route, no battle even went down! Of course that makes all those other encounters when he does smash the said button of ours vanish!"

I'm not discounting the other Neutral Routes! But I'm citing the pacifist route, because that route is ALL ABOUT GIVING MERCY! So your spiel about it representing neither Asgore or Frisk wanting to give mercy is invalidated.

"Yeah... just like they don't want to stay among their buttons forever and actually want to enter the battle box and risk death? I'm sorry, but right now, you are experiencing what I have had many times already, you are nitpicking equal evidence to fit your own narrative."

Frisk is just as susceptible to the Battle System and it's rules as the Monsters are. THA has already pointed out the other instances better than I can, any other time can simply be chalked up to Frisk just not wanting to or just being unable to. "No, it does not. But tell me, which of these two explanations is simpler? If we had more evidence for either, I would not be casting such ultimatums. Unfortunately for your narrative, this is all we have. And therefore, I must resort to Occam's razor in this (and similar) situation(s)." Undertale being a universe of it's own with it's own laws, rules, principles, and phenomena. Just like literally any other Alternate Universe in fiction. The things presented are presented as natural things in this world, and Toby said as such on the Kickstarter. Ergo, these things are naturally occurring parts of the world, and Undertale takes place in a universe that's fundamentally different than our own. It's one of the most basic and common concepts in fiction.

"Hmm... what about monsters one can spare right away, do they want to fight? I can't imagine Whimsuns like this, and I bet Moldsmals couldn't care less."

They're doing it because they have too, not because they want to, hence why they can be spared to quickly. I explain this better down below with an analogy.

"Nitpicking between monsters and locking them and us into some otherwordly mechanism filled with a plethora of 'alien' concepts, such as turns, buttons, invisible slashes (this is how THA explains monsters not dodging our attacks)."

Except the cause is stated clear as day by Toriel: Monster want to fight, Monster initiates FIGHT, you either fight, spare, or run away. And the concepts clearly aren't alien to the Monsters.

Personally, I think how human-monster battles are handled is that it's a mix between the two ways they fight. The Battle System is clearly a way of fighting magically (think the Harry Potter duels), and humans would clearly fight physically (literally any way shown in real life or fiction). Think of it like how the Mario and Luigi games do it, when selecting fight, the humans move to the monsters and attack before heading back to their position as per the Battle Systems rules. It's the Battle System's way of accommodating for the two combatants'; it's not sentient, just able to factor combatants to make fair rules to accommodate.

With Monster-Monster fights, it's pretty much how it's shown in game, only it's that way for both sides since both combatants are monsters. "And you made the claim that for human-monster encounters, the in-game mechanism applies, but now you added that it does not happen to any other combo, e.g. human on human, or (assuming you also implied) monster on monster."

It wouldn't make sense for humans to do it like how the Monsters do it, since they can't use magic as well as they can. "Tl;dr, yet another arbitrary rule that feels less like a basic concept of physical processes and more like a concrete, computer-made 'if:else' statement."

Says the person who admitted to making arbitrary rules just to make his statements validated. Double standards much?

"I've had the impression you opposed the idea of shops being the way they are presented in the game: a safe space where one is limited to only a handful of prompts. And I said "why not" to this idea, the same way I said "why not" to the idea of invisible impassable barriers. But that doesn't matter anymore, I assume you oppose this the same way you oppose the latter."

Not really, that was just an example of an interpretation that keeps what's said to be canon as canon. Unlike the Battle System, LV, EXP, and S/L/R, which make sense when applied as natural things of the world (like Toby has said them to be). The invisible barriers have no implication, hints, or mention in any way in-universe or out of universe. And no, simply not doing the things you stated does not count as a hint, implication, or proof; find something in the game or stated by Toby that actually hints or states that these barriers exist, or it's just that either Frisk doesn't want to or just can't.

"Just like jumping between rooftops 20 meters apart is also natural in the Matrix. Toby of course meant what you said, but it was me who forged the implication that it might be a computer simulation."

Which, again, would be an awesome AU; but it works in the Matrix because that's the premise the movies are built around. Undertale is not built around that concept, and doesn't follow those rules to that extent. The rules Undertale follows are the same natural rules that we do and the ones shown in-game, rules that Toby has, again, said to be naturally a part of the world.

"Remember Gaster? Toby had no big plans for him and yet, people crafted such insane theories concening him, such as that he was the one to write the first 8 lab entries. I'm positive this was never Toby's secret plot line, but just something we crafted ourselves to patch the plot holes. And I have created this hypothesis to justify those weird arbitrary rules the world of UT presents itself with to us."

A hypothesis that has no ground when the fact that Toby says that the "arbitrary rules" are canon to the world is brought up.

"Ah pardon me, didn't realize that had to be turned into a point. Weren't we talking about Flowey and Asriel? Yeah, of course the power goes to the strongest one. But I just added one more rule, that to reset as a being with a composite soul, the previous user must be killed first. An arbitrary rule, but fit for the SLR ability."

Except that I already disproved that when I pointed out that Omega Flowey didn't need to do that, due sot him - by your logic - having a composite SOUL. Also, this is what I'm talking about when it comes to hypocrisy, you whine about "arbitrary rules" yet are fully fine with using and making them up just to keep your hypothesis afloat just a smidge longer.

"You see, I am content with the SLR behaving like a computer program, because I believe it was forged by Gaster through whatever means (so I am fine with assigning arbitrary rules to it). Of course he would need some sort of a computer simulation to create something so complicated, resulting in such arbitrary rules. But while I am willing to admit Gaster the creation and presence of SLR, I cannot admit him the HUD. No one has or should have that much power, it's insane. Therefore, the HUD must be a natural occurence then, if not an artificial one (artificial as in, not created by any of the "inside" subjects of the universe). And if so, let the entire world be a computer simulation (created by some "outside" subjects)."

Except that Gaster himself is a part of this world, and it would make no sense for him to do any of this, even for being a scientist.

"Yes. And that would have happened before the war, simple. Though, I have one alternative explanation, but this one suffices, so let's leave it at that."

Except the ratio given to us makes no sense if that's the case. If they know how much is in the human SOUL, and how much Monsters have in comparison, then they would know how many monsters would equal one human SOUL, and by extension, seven of them.

If DT = SP, then this REALLY makes no sense. If DT =/= SP, then my prior explanation on the DT Extractor having the Monster level of DT as a cease threshold is the only way for this to make sense! "I dunno, souls reserving a part of the DT for something and then using the rest for something else... seems weird, considering the former doesn't ever get utilized, unless the human dies."

I never once said that the SOUL "reserves" DT, just that humans automatically have the amount necessary to persist after death and anything more is part of what determines the SOUL Trait. That's it, nothing more, no "capacity reader" or "reserving", that's all there is to it.

"But my point was, that this idea was pointless; that tiny amount of DT that would make the soul red wouldn't do add any new ability any other human soul already wouldn't have,"

You can time travel at will, literally defy death, and destroy the world if you want to. Of course, they aren't free, you have to have the necessary amount of DT to even get them; but you can get them.

"considering the souls mustn't vary, they must be nearly identical in their inner capacity due to the measuring rule, and so, that tiny difference would be negligible."

The SOUL Power must be constant, not the DT. If a monster's DT can fluctuate, then why can't a human's? If DT can't fluctuate in humans, then how did Frisk get the power to REFUSE? How did Frisk get the power to destroy the world (Frisk GAINED it, but Chara was the one who USED it)?

If you have DT as SP, then you lock out what happens at the end of the Pacifist and Genocide Routes, you LOCK OUT CANON. Which is the worst thing you can do in this kind of debate.

Frisk DIDN'T display these abilities in the Neutral Route(s), only in the Pacifist and Genocide Routes. Showing that their DT INCREASED by comparison, which goes against the "must remain constant" thing as it's a CHANGE FROM THE CONSTANT!

Refuse and "Erase", as we'll call it, are powers OF DT, accessible only through DT and their respective methods (sparing and killing).

"Especially so, considering the above, that the majority of the DT wouldn't get utilized under normal circumstances. So most of the time, you would have like 98% of the soul's DT available, and 99% with red souls. Such a tiny difference cannot make a difference, it certainly cannot be enough to fuel for example the refuse mechanic. Sure, if it was like 40% and 80%, I'd believe it, that's a significant difference. But this isn't the case here."

That's IF DT = SP, which it doesn't.

"Still, I find this specific part of the discussion pointless, because we're speaking of concepts that utilize novelty ideas, such as that souls can actually "reserve" DT. I'm all for novelty concepts, if it solves a persisting conundrum. Though, I have already solved it with my "red souls aren't special" theory (which isn't even mine btw), so I don't really feel like further exploring this concrete idea. "

I had an entire tangent here, prior to posting this, but then just decided to delete it.

All I can reasonably say here is, I hope your happy with running from a challenge, because you're TRULY exhibiting Bravery.

">"You could just as easily say that Bravery is SP, or that Patience is SP, and it would make about as much sense as DT being SP." You are assuming the other traits are the same thing as DT, that they hold "power", and that they are a scalar item like DT."

They are a part of the SOUL, like DT; they are what make up DT, meaning that they and DT are the same kind of thing. "She didn't deny it but alright, we can end this discussion if it bothers you so much as to throw you into a state of absolute denial. It'll probably be better for your health anyways."

She clearly separated them as two separate things, that's all there is to it. If there's anyone in denial here, it's you, because I'm not the one clinging to strawmen and hypocrisy just to try and keep my views validated. At this point, I'm just going to assume you're trolling. "And what would be the rest, hmm? DT+X=SP, solve for X."

What I said is what I said, that DT is A power of the SOUL, and SP is THE power of the SOUL as a whole. If DT is A power of the SOUL, then so is Bravery, Justice, Kindness, Patience, Integrity, and Perseverance; all of which are as much as a part of the SOUL as DT is.

Also, the equation should be like this: X+B+J+K+Pt+I+Pv=SP, solve for X (representing DT). "Summa summarum, all these things are my final static stances on the matter. Don't bother replying, save for me asking about monsters that we can spare right away and the mysterious X. Everything else here I won't change my mind about. Besides, I kinda left THA hanging there yesterday."

Here's the explanation and analogy on those "spare right away" monsters: they dont't WANT to fight, but they do because they HAVE to in order to get that seventh SOUL. Do you think all hunters hunt because they WANT to hunt? No, there are hunters who hunt because they HAVE to hunt, not because they want to.

They HAVE to fight, so they initiate a fight; they don't WANT to fight, so they're easily and quickly sparable.