Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170913200045

1) Maybe any creature can persist with no determination. After all, monsters are made out of magic, so draining their determination might not be so "deadly" for them. And besides, it is said that the soul of NEARLY every monster is needed to equal one human soul, but Asriel absorbed all of them (except for Napstablook's soul, but my point stands), so in theory, all of their determination was not drained away.

Also, boss monster souls do not persist due to DT. They persist thanks to their life cycle. This was stated in monster history book number 8, which is only accessible from datamining. Datamined sources are questionable, but I take whatever I've got.

And about "soul magic", you're kinda right. After all, the power of the human souls, which comes from DT, was used to boost the monsters' powers in at least two counted occasions (Asriel and Omega Flowey). Read this: https://tsskyx.tumblr.com/post/162356512763/oh-ive-figured-it-out

It just might be that both Omega Flowey and Asriel drained the human souls' powers (once by the heavy attacks, once by using them for the barrier), so after that, they were too exhausted to continue persisting, which is why they seemingly disappeared. Besides, I have this personal headcanon, that even human souls can die on their own if they're not placed in some container, such as a human body, or a jar.

And remember, since Asriel used most of the "soul magic" on the barrier, with only a little bit remaining (since he absorbed more souls than necessary), he did have some extra magic left to keep his "normal" form, but he definitely did not have enough to make his health infinite, and to cast such powerful attacks yet again. It just doesn't add up. I'd even argue that it takes a lot of that soul magic to keep him in his normal form to begin with, so again, how much would there really be left for such a long minigame on TOP of all of that? Not enough, I'd say.

And I believe we can only see Flowey loading (and failing to load). We don't see his actual battle interface. And this is the only time when we see the loading in fact. So the souls probably had some meta effect that made this power visible. But maybe, it's always there, maybe it's always visible. Maybe all beings with high DT can see it. Which would mean that Flowey could see US loading. We just don't know.

2) Your "facts" are a joke. The pile of fluff was just dog residue, since it was the same dog we met earlier. It's not snow either. The bad posts reference his frequent shitposting on social media, nothing else. And of course Toby doesn't make all the bad posts on the internet, that was just a pure joke. No need to throw it up my face as if it is some substantial evidence. Because it isn't. Next, the game IS Undertale, since Toby made no other big game, and also because of the colors on its sprite match the Undertale logo. Who knows what the weird mushroom thingy below it is supposed to mean, but not everything has to be accurate. And it's not a game from the future either. From all the ways he chose to foreshadow an upcoming game, he chose the place that would imply so only if we were to assume that the game takes place in a not-so-distant future. So no, it was not a game from the future, and it WAS Undertale. Next, the jigsaw pieces and the rope were a metaphor for whatever Toby wanted to say by that, that's dead obvious. Of course he doesn't play with those things in real life (probably). And yes, you are right, we have no clue whether the dog made the puzzle pieces himself, or if he stole it from somewhere. I don't know why it was important for you to bring that up. Finally, the fabric the dog is sleeping on. That refers to the bugs in the game. Toby needs to "patch" them. Even the dialogue says exactly that. The entire room is a reference to the game and Toby. So it can't be canon. Stop saying it is. It is not canon. It is NOT canon. It simply isn't. If it were, it wouldn't reference the entire game like that. And you just can't explain that room by saying it's a different person from Toby. It isn't, it makes no sense for it to not be a representation Toby.

3) Futher proof that they haven't reached the supposed "singularity" yet. But it can still be the future. Or maybe, they already did reach it. After all, it's about the technological improvement, not about the cost of things. So a disc can still be much cheaper than some AI. And no, code won't be cheaper. Code is not a thing, it's a program within a computer, and computers will always be more expensive than simple discs, whether those discs are just for an effect and do nothing but spin, or if they're actually capable of playing music on their own. The price of computers will go down, but so will the price of many other things. Actually, I think AI will be very, very expensive, since there won't be enough skilled people to make their own AI. So people would naturally increase the price to get the capitalistic advantage. I mean, many people still don't know how to program, many people don't know how to even use a computer. Don't expect everyone to be an AI expert by then.

4) There was an entrance. The fucking barrier you ignoramus. It was later sealed, and soon the monsters found that there are no other entrances or exits. Basically that there's no way of leaving the underground.

"But this cursed place has no entrances or exits."

They talk about there being no accessible way to the underground. The barrier entrance doesn't count, since it's not accessible. So, assuming they really DID look everywhere (the plaques were written after building Home), then that means only one thing. The hole that Frisk fell through didn't exist at the time they wrote those plaques. And so I argued. Seeing the state of the Ruins (not just the city, the caverns themselves), I thought that perhaps something happened that thrashed the place and made that hole. And there is a magmatic pool in Hotland, so that could be the cause. And maybe that's also one of the reasons they've decided to rebuild everything, besides no longer fearing humans. And since this coincides with Chara falling down, I'd argue that earlier than 201X (take some years), no human could have even fallen down in the first place!

And maybe Alphys knew all of that about souls already, and just wanted to "generate" more DT. Maybe she wanted to create a determination farm or something. But in all cases, it is undeniable that Alphys's knowledge is limited, and some things she says may not be 100% correct. The plaques on the other hand are 100% correct (so far). You see, I found out that due to some (above stated) evidence, Alphys did get some things wrong. But I haven't found any evidence yet that would contradict the plaques, except for the intro. And now we're back at where we started. The intro, versus the plaques. Why should we accept only the "mysterious" information, and not information that is revealed later, by actual, (formerly) living beings? For what we know, it could be the LEGENDS that depict a skewed reality, as most legends and myths usually do. But the plaques were written by someone who didn't bother making their writing fancy, they just wanted to spread their knowledge, and to vent some rage too it seems.

"From the Ruins to New Home."

Bro, where are you getting your information from? The castle was in New Home, not in the Ruins. Asriel left through the barrier in New Home, and returned back to New Home, making it as far as Asgore's garden. Chara and Asriel's rooms were in New Home. Chara tells us that that's the date they arrived there upon checking a calendar from the end of 201X in New Home. There was also one in the Ruins, and it was from the beginning of 201X.

Also, I figured that their souls fused, since if they did not, Chara's soul wouldn't take any damage from the hits (Asriel's body was attacked - ergo, only Asriel's soul should have taken the damage) and yet, Chara's soul perished too. Since I don't believe humans have magic, I don't believe that their attacks were hitting Chara's soul unless it was fused with Asriel's, which WAS being hurt by the attacks. No, if the attacks were only physical, Asriel's body would protect any other souls inside of it. So either the humans were using magic, or Asriel's and Chara's souls really were fused into one. And then there's also Asriel's dialogue:

"Frisk, when Chara and I combined our SOULs together..."

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Sounds like a fusion or something. Of course, their essences did not merge, but it seems like their souls kinda did.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">6) The "X" represents quitting. You want to end the fight. Either by coming to an agreement with the monster, or by leaving. And your claim doesn't dispute anything. An ACT is still Frisk doing something to make the monster change their mind (other than fighting). If a check isn't a "visible" thing, then why is it under the ACT option? That's the logic I'm going by here. And Aaron seems to support this. He reacts to our checks. I think it's safe to say that checks are very visible. Frisk does ask the monsters. You even said that we are Frisk. So whatever we do is a representation of what Frisk does. So don't pull Chara into this. They're the one doing the checking, yes, but Frisk is the one that initiates it.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">7) What makes you think that Frisk is present in the reset screen in the first place? ;)

<p style="font-weight:normal;">But yes, I do think they are present, since how else are they supposed to reset, right? I guess, it makes more sense to say that they can reset at will, rather than "exiting" and "reopening" the game, which brings up the reset menu (if I'm not mistaken, that's how it works). But that doesn't mean they are also present during the other cases when their soul, nor their sprite isn't visible. I didn't say that the reason for that is their soul missing. No, I said that the reason why I think so is because Flowey's messages seem to be targetted at us in some cases, not at Frisk. So that got me thinking that perhaps all instances of Flowey talking on a black screen like that are directed towards the player (excluding battles ofc).

<p style="font-weight:normal;">8) So what is your "canon" explanation of hardmode then, hmm? We can't just cherrypick evidence, so if it all seems like an act, then it is, and there's no "canon" hardmore, only "meta canon".

<p style="font-weight:normal;">9) You argued that a transfer of power kicks the current participant out. I wonder why that didn't happen when Flowey became Asriel.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">11) Alphys said that about passing through it. Yes, maybe a stronger power would also allow you to pass through, but how do you expect to get that power? A monster soul cannot absorb another monster soul, and a human soul can't absorb another human soul. So if you put one of each together, you won't be able to add a 3rd one anyways.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Yes, maybe theoretically one monster soul could absorb more than one human soul (and vice versa), but recall what Asriel said. He  said that the control over his body was SPLIT between him and Chara, so we can argue that neither soul was the "dominant" one. It wasn't a one-way absorbtion, they absorbed each other simultaneously. This is what I call a fusion.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> So you are right in that a greater power can be used to pass through the barrier, but not that it can come from a different combination of souls.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> " <span style="font-weight:normal;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">If it's SOUL power that's required to break the barrier, then it should also be what's required to cross it-It's the same barrier, after all."

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> You didn't construct the barrier, you can't know how it works :P

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> In all honesty, you don't. This is just how the barrier works, so accept it. I accepted some facts about the HUD because of you. I too can be persistent and keep denying your claim that it takes no magic to cross through. This is a given fact. And the barrier requiring soul power to be destroyed is a fact as well.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> And I am going by the assumption that DT is soul power, since I myself haven't run into any problems with this theory yet. And yes, the barrier is locked with soul power, but it is also implied that this "lock" is what must be attacked. So either way, I am still right.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> And also, WHY do you think that a monster soul is not needed to cross the barrier if DT is soul power? I genuinely do not understand. Is it because you think that since DT fluctuates, but soul power does not, then those two can't be equal? Well what if I told you, that DT does not fluctuate? It is a physical thing, that Alphys extracted. The fluctuations are based on the impulses coming from the soul's essence, so without a soul, it should naturally evaporate, no? So there are no fluctuations, just different amounts of it being utilized by the soul.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> You see, I believe DT resides in the body, but when "called", it can travel into the soul. THIS is what's perceived as a fluctuation - the soul being filled with differing amounts of DT, that comes from some generic DT pool (figuratively speaking). The reason why I think so is because there's a correlation between DT and physical matter. Just like there is one between DT and soul power.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> And the magicians, well, your analogy is wrong. Boss monsters do not possess any "human" qualities. As I've already explained, their powers apparently come from their life cycle. It isn't DT that makes their souls persist. Your explanation still might work, but there's no mention of "boss humans" anywhere. Just magicians. "Seven of their greatest magicians" blah blah blah. Yes, there's a word "their", but this doesn't prove that they were human, just that they worked for the humans. They could still be anything. Maybe "magicians" is the name of their race? ;)

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> 12) We got that information form Asgore himself.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> 13) Precisely. Except for the last two sentences. Literally the rest of your point is a proof of that.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> 14) Maybe there's no "canon" version of that in the first place. Maybe those messages were meant to be for us and us only. Kinda like hard mode. It wouldn't be all that weird.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> And I believe that Chara gets that power AFTER we give them our soul. And since you don't have to do that in order to reach the pacifist ending, then... Flowey talking to Chara about their power to reset everything at the end of a pacifist run is... debatable. And I postulated that Flowey could again be talking to the player.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> And how can Flowey know that a narrator is present? We don't know if they're even heard outside of Frisk's head, outside of the dialogue box. And there are only two occasions when we know that the narrator was heard, Napstablook and Tsunderplane. Maybe Flowey figured it out because they answered to seemingly non-existant questions or statements. But that's not too convincing I'd say. Maybe you could say that Chara and Frisk talked with each other along the way, which would reveal this cover, but eh, Frisk doesn't talk. If as you say Flowey always knew it, then it must have happened somewhere down the neutral run. We already excluded the battles, so where else does Chara interact with Frisk? I don't think anywhere. So then it boils back down to the genocide and pacifist run only. Maybe in the pacifist run, the narrator is revealed during Snowdrake's mother battle, and maybe during genocide they are revealed each time it says "X left". But I wouldn't bet on it.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> 15) And w <span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;">e are seeing a skewed version of the real world, while Frisk sees the actual real world. If the HUD was real... that would be so complicated to explain without saying it is canonically code. I can always say that Asgore smashing the mercy button was just symbolic, and make something up for Sans's battle, or I can also say the game is canonically code, but no one just knows about it. Either way, it's gonna be simpler than saying it is some ingenious design of the universe itself. Since that is a grade-A nonsense.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;">16) He had a worried face the moment the other monsters stormed in. After that, he was pretending to be scared of course, but right before that, he was surprised. Maybe since he never called for those monsters in the first place. And the main monsters blocking the attacks made him angry, not surprised.