Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-30088034-20170108152544/@comment-30088034-20170113195711

To mabian Yes I&#039;m single wrote: '''so it just makes it easier for the game to work? that's smart. because the game remembering things is cool, but it can screw up later runs (you know what happened lol). and i guess flowey could just take as many tries as he needs, just like the human. but wait, if he just reset, shouldn't the characters have at least SOME recognition of him?''' Perhaps, though one could think about it this way: if all you were left with when time is reset is a vague feeling of having experienced something, and that "something" was a small yellow flower killing you, you'd probably chalk it up to a bad daydream, and think nothing more of it. Especially if you don't see the flower again.

'''Well this is undertale we're talking about. Souls, magic spells, transformations... anything could happen. and if they have a recurring dream, wouldn't they at least tell evrryone about it? wow, i am getting way to nitpicky lol.'''

'''oopsie. but it's a "human and a monster soul" not "the power of a human and monster sou." they are different''' Right. Again, this is why the idea is on shaky ground. But if "the power that equals one human soul" can replace the necessity for an actual human soul when it comes to breaking the Barrier, there's no reason it could not work for passing through as well.

'''but you said earlier flowey and the humans didn't exist at the same time. so it doesn't matter. and if they existed at the same time, i still think the humans would be more determined than flowey so that flowey couldn't save.''' I still say at the end of the day that they didn't overlap, but the point is simply to show that we have very little information to go on to explain the exact same events, specifically events that take place long before the game does. When you have a lot of imagination and only a few constraints, there are a near infinite number of theories that can be constructed that "work" (i.e. explain the specific events in question in a consistent manner).

'''i'm starting to make sense of the timeline now... and i agree. they didn't overlap. but i'm pretty sure the humans that fell before frisk were huge asshats because when you kill toriel on a genocide run she's like "You are just like the rest"'''

'''maybe it could have been asriel? but before they even MADE asriel, i don't know.''' That still runs into the same problem, perhaps even more so, since Flowey has Asriel's memories and would presumably mention at some point having the power to save prior to turning into Flowey.

'''also true, but it's not really relevant. and the most determined being has never been a monster, right? unless if flowey counts as a monster. are monsters aware that people can save at all? if so, why didn't alphys inject determintion into herself or say, asgore? would they turn into the ghost thingies still?'''

'''well, even frisk can't go back to before he existed, so i think complete control is impossible. and i think the humans that fell before had some power but not as much as frisk, because frisk is special (for whatever reason) (and chara)''' Indeed. But the limitations that are clearly present, and the possibility that different beings have different amounts of control, means that the formulation "the most determined being controls the timeline" is not as simple as it at first appears.

'''wait, they do? man, it's probably because i haven't played genocide. i might.''' You'll note at the end of True Pacifist that technically (almost) everyone has left the Underground, and so resetting must, by necessity, pull them all back in. Flowey even requests that you (whoever "you" is supposed to be here) let Frisk go and live their life.

'''well, you can't reset at the end of  pacifist. only true reset. so i think that's what pulls them all back in.'''

'''im not saying that much, that would be too much work. and i know toby made an absolutely amazing game in such a short time. however, when you killed more than "X" amount of monsters, maybe alys still evactuates but not mettaton? and in between 0 and "X" monsters killed, maybe she isn't that excited about seeing you (and doesn't help guide you) or at least less? ''' He could do that, but it creates the exact same problem: at X monsters she evacuates the Underground, but at X-1 she's a bit less excited in seeing you than if you had killed 0 monsters. So why X and not X-1? Why X-1 and not X-2?

well, it's better than one monster being the difference between evacuating and being happy to see you

Add to that a sort of "how does she know" problem. Imagine, for instance, that one kill triggers Alphys's different dialogue. But what if that kill occurs in the Ruins? Canonically, Alphys has no idea what is going on there (someone has raised the same problem with respect to Undyne's speech, which showcases some of the pitfalls). So which is preferable: to have Alphys act the exact same way in any non-Genocide playthrough, or to have a paradox where Alphys reacts to information that by all accounts she shouldn't have? Either way you create a weird hole.

'''make kills in the ruins not count. similar to undyne. so if you went genocide in the ruins and then changed to pacifist, alphys would stilll think you're very nice.'''