Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20171213151556/@comment-27136653-20180205170714

"Read the post more carefully. I said the USDA didn't exist when the monsters were first banished underground. Of course the USDA exists in Undertale's universe-Otherwise it couldn't be referenced! But, since the war happened long before then, prior to the USDA, the USDA couldn't have monitored these foreign vegetables. Hence, the text makes sense. It's not monitored by the USDA because monsters were banished prior to their existence. Therefore, Vegetoid was NOT monitored by the USDA. The two never coexisted in the same place."

But that's also a nonsense. The same one in fact as saying that the story is not happening in the US because of the negative included. You're just replacing space by time. You're saying that the story is not happening during the time when the USDA exists, and again soleley because of the negative included.

Honestly, how much does that make sense? Doesn't the whole sentence rather imply that the USDA is present there and then, but that Vegetoid is not monitored by it since the USDA doesn't know about it, since no human knows about the entire underground to begin with? Isn't that a simpler explanation? Honestly, who ever words the presence of a subject by introducing an object from a different place/era, and then simply adding a negative to that object's verb? Would that not be misleading? And vegetoid is not even a crucial part of the plot, I don't think Toby would do something like this here on purpose. There appears to be no point in wording this information in such a weird way, so I am assuming Toby didn't. He simply implied that the USDA exists simultaneously with the events of the game, but that they don't monitor this monster.

"Also, how were they not like Native Americans? The art wasn't exactly in color, so it's not like we got their colors wrong..."

No feathers and stuff. That's one of the most recognizable features of native Americans. So if they don't have feathers, unless there's some direct proof that they are the native Americans, we should rule this possibility out. And no, I don't think the USDA counts as a proof, since as I said, it could be the United States of any federative republic in essence. For example, Germany. And besides, I do not think we should be associating this game with any real-world places, since it has magic and we don't. So if it's not the same USDA that we know because of this, who says it is the USA's USDA? Who says there's some USA to begin with? North America? Earth? The same one we're living on? Again, Earth is just a name, I already said that many cultures called the world using the same word they use for soil, and "earth" is the english word for soil/dirt. Also, who says the language they're speaking in is called English? That's another thing to ponder about. There probably weren't any Angles or Saxons if the above is the case. So in that case, all similarities we're seeing with the real world exist only because the game was tailored for our culture. Toby is no Tolkien, and even Tolkien used English as the "common tongue," despite creating a completely different world.

Also, I think that we should only be replying to whole paragraphs from now on, to prevent further text fragmentations.

"Well, if the ages progressed accurately like they appeared to be, then they should have progressed similarly to us. Also, I found more evidence placing the war centuries ago-Well technically, it places CHARA centuries ago. It's flat-out mentioned that Chara came from a home village. Village. As in, Middle Age villages, instead of towns and neighborhoods!"

Village is not an archaic word. It is used to describe little towns. From dictionary.com:

a small community or group of houses in a rural area, larger than ahamlet and usually smaller than a town, and sometimes (as in partsof the U.S.) incorporated as a municipality.

"Asriel probably told them on the way to the castle. Alas, since we're hearing it from the monsters' understanding of Ariel's one-sided perspective of the story, that leaves plenty of room for error."

Exactly, the same story got simplified. They omitted the part where Asriel stopped in Home. He took them to his parents, and they took them to the castle. So Asriel took them to the castle.

"Where does it say that's what it was made for?"

Ancient fusions between diversions and doorkeys. They are made to halt (divert) but not to stop (lock) humans from progressing. Doesn't it strike you weird that none of them are deadly and all are possible to pass? If the monsters wanted, they could simply barricade themselves in. But my guess is that this wouldn't help at all, as the humans were unstoppable, and such barriers were probably too difficult to maintain, so the monsters resorted to simpler ones. After all, they could just hide the same way they did on the genocide route, as the puzzles would buy them enough time. They are puzzles after all, not traps or barriers. They are meant to be passable. Another argument is that they're all over the underground. Monsters move through it daily. If they were impassable, that would rather complicate things, don't you think? If anything, it is the kids' fault that they couldn't solve those puzzles in Hotland on their own, they should have rather stayed in school (I think this is what Toby did, he associated their disgust for school with their inability to solve those puzzles). Anyways, this is a pretty conclusive proof that this is what Toby had in mind. It's not confirmed yet, but we most likely won't get a confirmation for a lot of these nitpicky things, so I would call this one canon. There's really nothing to argue about anymore. Also, the door to Snowdin. I think the monsters made it to seal the direction from which they came, but had to make it quickly accessible from the other side too, in case a human falls through the hole - the one they according to my interpretation of the lore discovered last.

"Didn't you just say before the door was supposed to STOP the humans? If the door was created after all the monsters fled to the Ruins, and first moved in there to keep the humans out, then how did Toriel leave to the Ruins? The door had to have been built after Toriel left."

She had da key. Duh. And she stole Asgore's key, just to be sure.

"Actually, because aliens likely don't exist. We've never seen one. Ever. In fact, the conditions required for life are so strict that we're probably the only intelligent life in the galaxy. So.. for an alien to come by..? Let's wait 100,000 years-That's still smaller than the time it would take at light-speed. And we're not certain-Speculation about aliens coming to Earth are still there..."

So to monsters, humans don't exist. Great. Let's pack, we're done!

"Which contradicts the hole that was literally used to banish the monsters underground. And NOBODY thought "oh, if there's no entrances, then how did we end up here?" ...Yeah.. too far-fetched."

Hole? Who says it was a hole? And to my knowledge, THAT entrance got sealed with the barrier. So I don't think they would be referring to that as an "entrance." Despite things being able to enter. Perhaps the monster that wrote that simply forgot that things can enter through the barrier normally. Perhaps, they only found about that much later, when the trash from the human cities started flowing in. This is also one of the contradictions you asked for. Unless you wanted a continuity error, which there isn't any.

"It was at the end, when they surrendered to the humans."

You're basically saying that the humans let the monsters scout the entire surroundings of the mountain so that they could check for possible escape routes. Which part of that statement makes sense to you again?

"Still need building material. And it can't be a meter wide-The slope would be too steep! 1 meter wide for a MILE high? That's more steep than 89 degrees!"

Wide, not high. And the building material is all around them. How do you think they built Home, New Home, Snowdin, or the Core? Also, did you figure out yet that staircases don't have to copy a straight line?

"Chara AND everyone else. Chara arrived in the MIDDLE of 201X, while the monsters were already on the journey. Perhaps Chara even fell just as the monsters were departing from Home, giving Asriel a chance to find them."

Or the Dreemurrs stayed behind for some time. Also, you don't move an entire city before you can ensure a safe journey. Really, what even are these arguments of yours? You give an explanation that is compliant with the current laws of physics, but one that makes no sense from any other point of view. This is why our discussions are so sluggish, because your arguments are always so terrible. And then you spend the next three weeks defending them like mad, despite knowing well that what you're arguing for is clearly a bullshit.

"...You do know that at this point, monsters had 1980's level technology, as signified by Toriel's phone, right? They could make calendars quite quickly. Besides, if preparation was going to take that long, so it'd be until the end of the year before they move, why only give the first few months? Why not give out the rest of the year if they won't be moving until the end?"

The production would resume on the other side. The end of 201X only marks the date that Chara came. Not the date they all moved. Also, I don't think the monsters, with their relatively low population and stone buildings literally everywhere would have something as complex as mass production before 201X. I don't see it necessary. They would have manufactures, but nothing human-sized. Remember, despite their level of tech, they are a small community, with varying demands from various monsters. Try not to compare them to the humans, who have everything very easy.

"Alphas found anime from humans and started watching it, becoming the first monster nerd."

I'm sorry but you'll have to prove this specific statement first before resuming. Also, hard labor is inevitable if you're suggesting they progressed like mad with their research through the ages. It's not like magic, you don't wave a wand and transform a cauldron into an electric stove. Those things must be more efficient than the old methods in order to catch on, and that's not something the inventors can influence. I cannot believe I am lecturing you on the basic processes in a society.

"During the Gaster Era, things were much different."

Again, I challenge you to prove your nonsense, one that's so far-fetched it cannot possibly be right from a probabilistic point of view.

"Same handwriting. Done."

What if it is printed? What if the others got lost? What if Asgore indeed found more than one? Or what if Alphys did? What if she found documents from dozens of monsters? We don't ever find anything, just her documents. As I said, you have no proof that Gaster was the only one. Usually I would favor a theory that assumes the least, but in this case, the sole assumption that a single person achieved so much is the less probable one.

"Gaster Follower literally calls his intelligence irreplaceable."

Blah blah blah, blind admirers. As Homer Simpson once said, if he was so smart, why is he dead? HMMMM?

"There were still "others". Remember the people you don't recognize?"

Yeah. Gaster's team? Perhaps Gaster wasn't the only one as I said above? But nonetheless, you cannot use the mystery of Sans's and Papyrus's origins as a "proof" of any of this. It doesn't prove anything, it doesn't even introduce any new arguments. You're just blindly connecting two events via their unexplained ends and call it a "proof." Still, it is undeniable that Sans and Papyrus are somewhat connected to Gaster.

"Who said Sans told them? He didn't. My argument for the "don't forget" is-Why would Sans need to keep that? Why would he need a photo not to forget those that he worked with, if it wasn't someone who was erased from the timeline?"

It could have been a reminder not to forget himself. Since his brother obviously got his memory wiped out or something. I mean, how do you even "remember" someone who was already erased? Maybe this was another one of Toby's infamous plot twists. Maybe not remember Gaster, but remember the past as whole.

"That's not what she said though. She said they just showed up one day. As in, they came out of nowhere. This only makes sense if their origin (Gaster) was erased from the timeline, leaving Sans and Papyrus with no origin-Making it so they literally appeared out of nowhere."

She said they 'just showed up one day and asserted themselves.' There's no emphasis whatsoever on the part about showing up. She didn't imply they materialized out of thin air or anything. And I don't think she would bother digging up their past. All residens kinda just accepted their presence according to how she worded it.

And those quotes? What are those? I know very well which monsters recognize you as a human and which do not. If you actually played the game yourself and paid attention to their dialogue, you would realize they aren't trying to kill you, but are just trying to have a normal convesation with you. At least those that do not recognize you as a human.

"Undone recognuxes you as a human and literally says she'll take your SOUL to Ashore and set monsters free. Ashore lead you to battle him because you're a human. Mettaton cals you a human, and so does Alphas. They all knew this and knowingly tried to kill you. (Except for Toriel. But my point is they knew you were human.)"

Uhhhhh... did you get a stroke when writing this part? But again, I know which monsters recognize you as a human and which ones don't. I was of course talking about those that don't.

"Why Asgore? I visualize Gaster doing it."

Nerds are never popular. That is one of the fundamental rules of the universe. You can't just assume the entire monsterkind is a one giant mensa just to support your fanon about Gaster being popular. So stop, okay? I'm starting to get real tired of your bs. Next time, I might simply not reply to make it easier for myself.

"And she's a science nerd, she would mention Gaster."

Yeah... she would. But instead, she started talking about anime. Some scientist she is, amirite? Perhaps... Gaster wasn't all that popular after all. Well known? Maybe. But not worthy of being the subject in a casual conversation. Or maybe, no one knew him in the first place. Maybe Gaster wasn't someone who liked publicity. I can imagine it would only distract him from his progress. And maybe the monsterkind didn't care who came up with the idea for the Core, or who figured out all the technical parameters behind it. They just saw a bunch of monsters working on it (I don't think Gaster built it all by his own hands) and were happy that they would finally have a stable electricity source, not having to rely on water mills and stuff. Who said they were actually interested in this stuff? You did, no one else.

"She went to taking pride in being the Royal Scientist to beliving she's literally garbage, to becoming a scientist again at the lab, to inserting herself into your story, to finally revealing the truth of the Amalgamates... Yeah, she's labile."

I think you are labile if you judge people like that. She created the amalgamates. That's what messed her up. But she is not insane. She would not think she made the Core herself. You are the one who still believes everyone has memory lapses for some reason. And why? So that you could "fix" your plot holes that you created yourself using your nonsensical arguments. I'm done with this part. If you want to postulate something, at least give it some supporting arguments. Don't just randomly throw it in.

''"Nice catch there. I meant there's no proof that Toriel left before, she left AFTER the second human fell, and that's when the second child died in the Ruins. Since Toriel was in New Home when the child died, and went to Asgore, which lead to Toriel leaving because "you could have done it with ONE SOUL", she wasn't protecting the child. That's why she didn't mention the human in "They come. They leave. They die.""''

She didn't mention this specific human because it didn't happen. Or maybe it did happen, but she simply didn't want to go into the specifics of the fallen humans. But anyways, this theory relies on the assumption that one died in the Ruins, which is only ever hinted at by their items lying there (or perhaps they're the items of someone else, who traded them for those left there by that dead human). So I don't think we can call this a conclusive proof. It's just a hypothesis. And besides, Asgore's dialogue seems to be implying that she left because of what he declared, that he would kill all humans that fall down, which is something he declared right after Asriel died, not after he acquired a new soul.

Remember, he declared the war in grief and to give hope to the monsters, not because he was a coward, so it wasn't during the time when the second human fell, it was shortly after Asriel's death. The only thing he did in cowardice was to decide not to use the first acquired soul in this way. He also implied that Toriel left him because he declared the war. I mean, it wasn't the only way, he could have just waited until the humans aged and then collect their souls or something.

Still, I get it. Toriel said that he was a coward when they met again, implying that that's what she was mad about. But remember the neutral endings. She revokes this human hunt policy. So that's what she really was against all along.

"My guess is "Oh, the human dropped it because he found something better!""

No, they dropped it by an accident. Or perhaps they lost it. Or perhaps they dropped it willingly. Who knows which human was the first one. They could have simply just gotten rid of the stuff they found useless. Perhaps the ballet stuff. That would seem pretty useless. And this stuff would then get past the Ruins as the following humans were to equip it.

"...I don't see ONE destroyed building or even one destroyed room."

Room under renovations. Or maybe not. But if we're talking about the outside view, then we can only speak of the buildings. Perhaps, the earthquake and the hole opening up happened sufficiently long ago for the monsters to be pretty much done with the rebuilding before moving to a new location. But then again, how much CAN we really deduce from this image of the Home? I don't think it's clear enough for us to see all the details. We pretty much see only two towers and one dome. The rest could very well be just rubble. Or maybe, the buildings were sturdier than we think.

"Fanfiction? There's a place for fanfiction here? I don't see it. I guess it would be grouped under Fun and Games..?"

Try Archive Of Our Own, or fanfiction.net. But post about it on the /r/UndertaleAUs subreddit. I personally use DeviantArt, but that's just for convenience.

"Not really. Remember, Toriel left because Ashore kept waiting around for seven humans to fall instead of just going to the surface with ONE human SOUL. Now that the monsters actually went through with their plan... This could have brought Ashore back. The real question would be why Asgore isn't still the king, though that's a mystery for both sides of this discussion."

Monarchy is perfectly fine for their smaller society. If Asgore is no longer the king, then I can only guess that it's because the humans are still alive and offered them to administer their community.

"And now you're doing the same by taking his posts as literally canon."

I'm not taking his jokes as canon. That's the difference here.

"He's just as much of a troll as Scott Cawthon. In the same way, too."

You wanted to say he likes to joke around. Maybe call him an "information troll." But a regular troll aims to piss people off. That's the fundamental definition of trolling. That's also what this saying means: "Don't argue with trolls, it means they win." It means they do it to piss others off.

"We're not sure he isn't trolling. Poe's law does apply here, that's what I'm trying to say. That Poet's law applies here."

One sure way to find out: Is it not ridiculous? If not, then he's perhaps not trolling. The next question then is, does it agree with the lore? If yes, then why should we ignore it? If it's not ridiculous and it fits... shouldn't we count it?

Toby for example once said that Papyrus isn't excited when he enters Undyne's house, but that he's just merely scuffing his feet. The first one is something we've constructed to explain his behavior, and here we have an alternative explanation coming from the official source. Which one is right then?

"Of course it's not canon, how can a tarot card be canon to an RPG universe?"

Dumb way to word it. One of them portrayed Gaster. Just to be extra sure, Toby removed that one even from the official release. But other than that one, the others aren't canon, since, well, tarot cards have a set meaning. This cannot possibly fit every single character in any the game, unless it is a game specifically made to fit a deck of tarot cards. Of course a tarot card isn't canon, of course a plushie isn't canon, the actual characters are a digital code, not paper or plush, duh.