Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-27136653-20170906221611

1) Once you take the souls out, there will be no power left. Only the "residual" energy. If he were to use THAT to fight, it would only drain it that much faster (logically). And he said he doesn't have much time left. Plus, he wanted to redeem himself, he wouldn't prank us like that, even if he had the power to.

And if that's Asriel's HP, then why do we see Frisk's soul? Are we seriously about to redefine the HUD yet again? I'm starting to think that my take makes more sense after all.

2) I didn't base my assumption on the logo. I based it on the fact that Toby uses the annoying dog sprite as his avatar. And from that, I've concluded the following:

Annoying dog's room is supposed to be a joke about Toby and the development of the game. Ergo, the game that lies in the corner is Undertale, and this all makes the room non-canon. While the annoying dog is canon, the room is not. Plus, the bad posts. Toby shitposts a lot. The next line about all bad posts on the internet originating from the dog is an obvious joke. We can't take it as a serious information, or even base theories on it.

3) It's not about computational power, it's about AI. Computers have already surpassed us in that regard. AI has yet to improve. But none of that matters, since no AI can replace a mixing station. I'm not talking about operating it. I'm talking about the machine itself. It will get digitalized, computerized and modernized over and over, but the design will always be made to suit for the user.

4) Does it matter? The fact that there's some sort of settings option in the PC version means that there's some behind-the-scenes stuff that isn't and can't be canon.

5) Perhaps there was no hole when they were written? Perhaps that would expain why did no human fall down prior to 201X. And saying that it was hardly a war implies the war was very short. Lastly, stop it. Receiving primary information and then new, secondary one that "corrects" the old one is not exclusive to Undertale, it's the basis of literally every plot twist ever. You can't argue that the intro disproves the plaques' credibility, since it came first. New information trumps the old one. Why else would the plaques be there if they weren't supposed to be some unquestionable canon info? Nothing and no one questions them, they're just there. Therefore, they MUST be the truth. Since, that's the point of their existence. To provide the player some lore.

6) A check is an ACT. So perhaps Frisk visibly does something to let the monsters know they're checking them. After all, notice the icon next to the ACT button. It's never some hidden action.

8) There is no soul, so Frisk isn't present. That's what I'm going with. Furthermore, how can Frisk use a joystick? They have no joystick in their inventory. Unless you mean some whimsical concept again. It's always dark when there's no soul, so maybe they're unconscious? But that would imply they can't do anything. So are they sleeping? Well, not always is their HP restored. So no, no joystick for Frisk.

And about hard mode, this is all that's different:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5Z2QtNGc3SFBBSzA

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6gS2LPXdIc5UXUtSnhfVXJ0bE0

The narrator is the same. They even reference the fact that things are out of order. Perhaps they expected them to be in the "usual" way. Perhaps they're Chara after all. And apparently, Napstablook missed the "memo" and is the same as usual. Explain that. Hard mode is not an alternative timeline, it's just a "memo". Kinda like the whole deal with colored names.

Face it, some things are just too meta to be canon. Either we give up trying to make sense of things, or we drop a few parts and get a nice, consistent theory. I myself do not want to get all tangled up in the mess that is the entirety of Undertale... Again.

I am happy with a consistent story that explains most of the game. You can't explain the entire game. You can't. Let me repeat it. '''You can't create a logical explanation for everything Undertale has to offer, without using too many assumptions, added rules and exceptions. '''Such theory would be worse than a theory that disregards a few things here and there in order to make more sense.

9) A reset sends everything back, and then the intro plays, yes. So does that mean Flowey reset everything? No, after the fight ends, the timeline resumes normally (so yeah, my theory about Flowey/Asriel not being able to reset stands). So how do we explain the glitched intro? Well, maybe it was a fake one. If Flowey can modify his save file, change the name of the game, etc., then he surely can insert a fake intro too. This is all really meta and I'm not saying that he knows he's in a videogame, I'm not saying that he knows that there's an intro, but it surely shows that he's really powerful.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">11) 6 souls ARE stronger than Frisk's soul. Determination doesn't fluctuate. At least not that much. It's just that Frisk still has their hands on the reset power that makes it LOOK like they're stronger. The transfer of power here is not absolute, they must be killed first (and they did, but Flowey kept unwinding the timeline, and Asriel just couldn't break the soul). Just like the fact that plenty of monsters can remember stuff across resets, not just Frisk. And Flowey remembers everything. Determination can make you remember stuff across timelines, despite not being in charge. The transfer of power isn't absolute.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And no, the barrier is not made out of determination, the barrier is a magic spell, and magic is not determination. But soul power is. The power of a soul (DT) was used to cast a powerful magic spell. Just like the souls of humans can "buff" a monster soul. Determination is what makes souls strong, therefore it is soul power. And determination can be used to cast more powerful spells. This renders your calculations invalid, since Frisk's determination never increased during Asriel's battle. Maybe a little bit to "refuse" (or whatever even happened there), but not enough to surpass the power of 7 human souls.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And besides, you can't just add up the DT in human and monster souls, hoping to find the value necessary for crossing the barrier. If that were the case, you could just gather enough human souls to pass. I've actually developed an elegant explanation for this. Observe:

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Humans have lots of determination, but only very little magic. The former is because they have lots of physical matter, in which the DT is stored. The latter is to hold their soul together, since a soul is a magical object, but they need no more.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Monsters have lots of magic, but very little determination. The former makes up their bodies. The latter ties with the fact that they have some physical matter in them, but not a lot of it.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Determination is a power that can resolve, change fate:

<p style="font-weight:normal;">If a soul is about to die, it can muster most its determination and try to refuse.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">If a human is decided to give their soul away, the soul gathers all of its determination, effectively unconnecting from the body, making it die. All their power is now within their soul.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">If it instead deems beneficial to let the soul die, such as when a power can return everything back, provided the necessary determination is present, the soul will kill itself, while pumping all the determination away. The moment it dies, its essence will break free, reconnecting with the only physical thing left - the body, where it finds the necessary determination (and this is my headcanon, Frisk TOUCHED the save points), and through its connection to the strange power, returns.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Determination is a fluidum that can exist both within a human soul and its body.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Magic is more like a uniform gas, but a monster soul still has an essence inside it (just like human souls), which seems to favor physical matter (dust) too.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Lastly, all of this implies that souls are nothing more than the sum of their respective parts:

<p style="font-weight:normal;">HS = N D + d M + E

<p style="font-weight:normal;">MS = d D + N M + E

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Where HS and MS stands for "human/monster soul", D is determination, M magic, E essence, N symbolizes a large amount, while d symbolizes a small one. Together, they give:

<p style="font-weight:normal;">MS + MS = N D + d D + N M + d M + 2E = D(N+d) + M(N+d) + 2E = (D + M)(N + d) + 2E

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Now, big + small = still big, so substitute N+d with N. Implying d is negligible.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">(D + M)(N) + 2E = N D + N M + 2E

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Soooooooooo, this tells us we need plenty (N) of determination (D) and magic (M), but also two (2) essences (E) to cross the barrier. Of course, there could be some extra-extra hidden component in the souls that would prohibit them to equate to the sum of their parts, but if that's not the case, then simple math like this applies, and it tells us that every soul is some combination of determination, magic, and an essence.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Lastly, boss monster souls are a mystery. Maybe they're special in the same way red souls are special. But then agian, are red souls really special?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The end.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">12) Yes. And Toriel disliked that. If you say that she disliked the fact that Asgore killed them, then she would have left before one would even fall down. If you disagree with murder, you don't walk away the moment it happens. You leave long before that.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">13) Frisk pointed out that they didn't do anything at all. But the point is, it makes more sense for Chara to laugh, than to cry (whether genuinely, or anxiously). Since it's not that sad, more like disturbing; it's not an anxious situation either; and since the "laugh" button was pressed, the only remaining option is a sarcastic laugh. But yeah, Frisk didn't do that.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">14 + 15) Which is why I said Flowey doesn't know the player, and the scenes where it appears so aren't canon.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And I don't disregard evidence as jokes, I can SEE jokes. I can differentiate them from the plot, and from jokes talking about the plot. And the fact is, that Toby had to stop people like YOU, who can't stop themselves from theorizing to no end, several times already. Do not look outside of the game for secrets. Sans is not Ness. Etc.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Toby is a more humorous person than a serious one. He didn't assign a meaning to literally every single thing in the game.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And you said it yourself now, when it makes sense within the canon universe, then it is probably true. Does the HUD make sense within the "canon" universe? Well, what IS the canon universe? Are we basing it on the real world, or are we just trying to cram as much of the game info into one story as possible, without any reference, hoping it would make sense so that we don't get into tedious internet debates with other people who claim to be using actual logic? (see point 8)

<p style="font-weight:normal;">There is no "canon" universe without a reference frame. You can warp and twist the definitions of "normal actions" to include stuff like turn-based fighting, but then it doesn't make sense to say the characters experiencing this new reference frame would also act the same. I am assuming the world is normal, since they act normally. No one is having an existential crisis (except for Sans), so no one knows they're in a videogame. And then I question the battle interface. Do the monsters not question why does the human keep showing the soul and then retracting it? Why do they have to wait themselves oftentimes? Even if they can't see the HUD, they can sense the flow of actions. They would conclude something is up with their own reality, unless we say something like the HUD is erasing their memories of it. But then what's the point of calling it a universe when you can literally reprogram everything, including memories? That's how games work.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Undertale is a game. It is code. We are talking about code here. In order to not talk about code, we must omit some things that can only be explained with code. Then, we can start working on the storyline. And then again, omit all the weird instances of things not aligning, and explaining them differently. That's what I did.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">You simply took everything and crammed into one thing, calling a literal game code a self-sustained universe. That's bs and you know it. How can a universe make letters, buttons, and sprites appear on a black background? I haven't heard of such physical concept yet. Magic can be explained, since it's not so meta. The only problematic thing is the battle interface, and interactions with the player. If we want to make a self-sustained universe, we must disregard both. If you don't like that, then that's fine, but please don't say the Undertale universe actually contains these things in the same form that we see them in. They are impossible to explain. I am not asking you for a precise mathematical definition of everything down to a quantum level, I'm just asking you to provide a logical explanation for how can these things exist, without anyone realizing they do, and without blaming it on mind control. Since that's synonymous with destroying evidence in this case. I could say the same about our own universe. That all I remember is my past, and that there's more to it, but a lot of it gets "cut out", leaving me with only the memories of my normal everyday life. Who knows what was happening during those cut out moments. Or, were they there at all?