Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20180104155430/@comment-28974149-20181004230201

TheHumanAmbassador wrote: "Yeah the monsters in Undertale were also working for a single "big bad", Asgore who wanted to destroy all Humanity."

Congratulations-You figured out the point I was trying to make!

Asgore being the Big Bad, and us trying to save humanity FROM Asgore! In many RPGs, we go on killing all these monsters because they're supposedly minions of this Big Bad. We kill all of them, to save the world from the Big Bad. So.. what makes it any different here? What makes this character a true demon? Or, were they always like this? =]

"BTW I do accept Frisk is in a way(seems to deviate in true pacifist), supposed to be us, since their face is basically an "insert face here" it only adds further credence to the fact OUR actions corrupt Chara."

It really doesn't-Saying Frisk's actions (also ours) corrupts Chara still doesn't make much sense.

"Congratulations-You figured out the point I was trying to make!

Asgore being the Big Bad, and us trying to save humanity FROM Asgore! In many RPGs, we go on killing all these monsters because they're supposedly minions of this Big Bad. We kill all of them, to save the world from the Big Bad. So.. what makes it any different here? What makes this character a true demon? Or, were they always like this? =]"

​​​​​​​I guess the difference is that the "antagonist" characters in Undertale aren't 1 dimensional and have complex morality greying reasons beyond "cuz evil that's why! mwa ha ha"    Kind of like real life.

"Asgore wants to destroy all humanity" suddenly becomes understandable when you add the details "to save Monsters from Humanity's cruelty." and all the history and context behind it.

And of course that the message of Undertale is that it's wrong to kill under any circumstances, that one should find another way.

As we see, most of the monsters are just normal people who have been taught all their lives that their lives suck and they've never felt the sun and everything's all crowded because of *humans* and they're doing their part to save everyone. Many of the monsters fight you specifically to achieve their dreams or in the hopes their lives will get better.

Others fight to be recognized as GREAT heroes.

But once you assure them to them that humans are all right they lose the will to fight.

A better example of the classic henchperson is Undyne she's 100% commited to the cause and 100% sure YOU. ARE. THE VILLAIN.

She's a member of what is the Underground's military, (fortunately they stayed stuck in the midevil era. Imagine Frisk fighting an armed monster! But then again innate magic attacks are superior to weapons in a way, so why would they need to advance? ) in a role analogous to Top General.

She is the "Big Bad"'s right hand woman! The Kammy Koopa! She is the drill sergent, the one who -yells at- trains all the other Royal Guards.

Her true theme "NGAHHH!" has revolutionary war drums, her encounter (once she stops all that "calm" shtick) is in a sense a declaration of war!

Her battle theme is "Spear of Justice"! She's 100% convinced she's the hero of this story and nothing can change that, she enlisted to protect everything and everyone she loves, she is unsparable under normal circumstances.

STILL! We find a way! Leading her out of her natural environment she falls to the heat, and unless you are heartless, you'll pour some cool water on her face, she gets up, stares for a moment, and decides to leave us alone. Even when we're feet away from her love interest's lab.

And soon, with help from another Monster friend's invitation and clever use of reverse psycology(as well as her own moral principles on how to treat house guests such as not gutting them like...a fish... spear fishing for humans...Toby you sly...dog..), and some bonding time, she takes a shine to us and sees we're not that bad after all. Even when she assumes this won't work out and tries to have a final stand with us she sees we cannot hurt her and finds, she cannot hurt us either...

Thee is always another, diplomatic way, to put aside our differences and touch base with our.. well not humanity but...sapientness?

What's different about killing them is you are only causing more pain in the end. And well, genocide is just.. purposely finding Monsters and killing them until there's nothing left. It's not even self defense.

No, they were not, didn't you agree with this? Chara was not always like this.

​​​​​​​"It really doesn't-Saying Frisk's actions (also ours) corrupts Chara still doesn't make much sense." ​​​​​​​ Of course it does,  especially plot wise. Due to their lack of soul after dying and being revived by our DT field, there's no moral compass to stop the kid from thinkin' "hey this killin' thing's kinda fun! Slash! Hack! Bish!" ​​​​​​​ Just like with Flowey. And it doesn't help that they're a kid and easily influenced. And of course, again, you essentially teach them Asriel was wrong for choosing Mercy even when under attack back when they were trying to save everyone.

We see it with the dog food bag.

"There’s an interesting clue to the narrator and their state of mind when you check the bag of dog food in the lab.

You see, unlike the dummy and tree, it’s affected by kill count, not LOVE.

If you kill no one…

Pacifist route text. You haven’t killed anyone at this point; the narrator is optimistic (”glass-full”). They’re having a good time on this path. They’re hopeful.

After killing someone (even a single Whimsun, who won’t even raise your LV at LV 1)…

The narrator is pessimistic. The bag is now “half empty”. Their state of mind is directly changed by you killing even one person.

But if you kill Doggo, and your kill count is 21+….

The dog bag becomes funny. This is directly affected by killing Doggo and killing more than 20 people. The narrator doesn’t find his death funny before 20 kills. Something has changed in them.

Their view on the world is directly changed by how much you kill. But they do not find Doggo’s death funny unless you kill more than 20 people (which is more than the equivalent of an entire area’s worth of monsters). They did not find it funny before the kills corrupted them, or they would always find his death funny, even without the kills.
 * If you kill no one, they’re optimistic. They don’t want you to kill.
 * If you kill even once, they become pessimistic.
 * If you kill over 20 people then they can be sadistic, even on a non-genocide route.

In addition to that, Chara becomes unrecognizable to Asgore in the Bippity Boppity Bad Path. Whereas before he was reminded of Chara when he saw Frisk…

in this route…

…they are completely unrecognizable, even when before he recognized the similarity in neutral/pacifist. Why is that?

Because in this run, Chara has changed. They were so unlike this during their lifetime that Asgore no longer even recognizes the murderous creature before him as human, much less resembling his child.

Basically, you turned them into another Flowey (except one who’s in Frisk’s head) who really does laugh at misfortune, even though it isn’t Flowey’s true nature, and it’s not Chara’s, either, or they’d always find the bag funny if all the dogs were dead.

It doesn’t take just a soulless person to find this funny; it takes corrupting them, too."

The Chara who’s doing the Dusty Dance here is about as much like the “original” Chara as the Flowey we meet is like Asriel. Flowey took a long time to get there on his own; he didn’t have a “guide”. Although when Frisk comes along…

Even soulless people can learn.

…one direction or another.

(non-pacifist neutral endings, had to use a transcript because I can’t find screens and I don’t want to reset and kill anything llollol)

This is what you’re doing. You either prove to Chara that you don’t have to kill (which seems to help them, going by the “half-full” statement and general spirit of the narrator at those times) or you teach them that killing is not just fine, but they HAVE to kill. Like Flowey, they seem highly suggestible, and they are looking to YOU for direction.

And like Flowey, if you show Chara any sign that this “kill or be killed” rule isn’t absolute, even after killing dozens of people, they hesitate. If you fail to kill everyone you possibly can in an area, no matter what it is or how much LOVE you’ve gotten, Chara will not kill Asriel. You’ll be bumped back on the neutral route.

I mean, it’s not like they can’t move your body for you at that point, but even so, they drop everything to see what you do next and don’t even try to “possess” you for the duration of the run.

But there is one point of no return.

If you teach Chara that Asriel’s way of thinking was wrong - for sparing lives and getting them both killed in the process - and to kill with no exceptions, they go on to kill him.

If they kill Asriel, it’s all over. Nothing you can do brings them back from this. They will immediately go on to destroy the world, because “there is nothing left for us here.”

That’s what the Pacifist route is about, by contrast.

If the narrator is optimistic upon seeing the “half-full” bag only when you haven’t killed anyone…then they don’t want you to kill anyone. They want to believe that Asriel was just trying to do the right

thing.

Because if you don’t kill anyone, then Asriel’s “never kill, no matter what” actions are validated, and he didn’t betray Chara by sparing the humans.

But you have to prove it.

If you kill even one creature, you show that there are circumstances you can kill in, meaning Asriel was wrong, and then the narrator is pessimistic, and says the bag is “half-empty”.

You’re doing the narrator a favor, making them happy, optimistic, by being a pacifist. You teach bothChara and Asriel that he was right all along. And this seems to make them both happier and more at peace, despite being soulless. They are able to let go of their regret and move on.

A soulless person has limitations, but not inevitabilities. They can show concern for others and retain a portion of their past identity.

Flowey cares about Frisk’s future at the end of their journey, and Chara fights alongside Frisk during their journey."

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​ Yeah since Chara's been questioning themself after the whole plan thing, they quickly cope with the knowledge that Asriel was wrong seeing as this kid right here, Friskybits, first thing they do, is kill people without hearing their pleas or thinking about their circumstances.

Chara: "Life is difficult for this enemy."

By (after becoming numb to the shock and losing all humanity and becoming sadistic after a room's worth of people are killed as seen by the dog bag text) helping out this new buddy with this new plan, their mission, learning from us that "the mission" is more important than any lives and as to cope with their new ideal of Asriel betraying them, they make us their new BFF.

"

It’s like I said before. On the Pacifist run, you teach them that what Asriel did had merit. Frisk survives, makes friends, and helps get the ”best” ending, all without fighting back, even when attacked.

But if you’re riding on the Asshole Avenue, you do the pretty much worst thing possible. You teach Chara that Asriel was wrong to not kill, that the “mission” is worth more than anyone’s lives. Which means he betrayed them. Their most trusted person… And then, it seems, as a coping mechanism, they project this relationship on Frisk in his place.

Hey, does this sound familiar?

''“I don’t know why I ever acted like you were the same person. (pause) Maybe…the truth is…Chara wasn’t really the greatest person, while, Frisk…you’re the type of friend I wish I always had. So maybe I was kind of projecting a little bit”.  Asriel wishes he could have always been friends with someone like ''Frisk, so he projects the persona of someone he was always friends with - Chara - on to them. If you take the Highway to Hell, this happens in reverse.

Remember that locket? The one that says “Best Friends Forever”?

…the one left on Asriel’s side of the room?

…the one Asriel generates on his image of “The God of Hyperdeath”?

It does not appear on either of his true forms, so it’s not ‘really’ there, but a projection he creates.

​​​​​​​

There are two presents in this room, indicating one is meant for the other. The one on Chara’s side of the room is a worn dagger, useful, according to them, for gardening (and excited-about-watersausages, constantly-drawing-golden-flowers Chara seems to like plants). The one on Asriel’s side of the room is a single heart-shaped locket.

It’s possible there were matching lockets, but if that’s the case, the one Frisk picks up is likely Asriel’s; Chara would have been buried in theirs, and it explains why he’s not “really” wearing it when Frisk has it. It’s also possible given that it’s called “The Locket” that there is only one, also possibly indicated by there only being one in the present box.

Regardless, the locket in the box seems to be Asriel’s. This locket belongs to Chara’s best friend.

Which, in this run, is Frisk.

The “you” is always Frisk. Chara has already used first-person pronouns to describe themselves at this point. “In my way”, “My bed” but still refers to “you” often. Even in this route, the description on the golden flowers is still “They must have broken your fall”.

It was neither Chara or the player who fell on these flowers, but Frisk. “You”, as Frisk, are still the one walking around. So when Frisk equips the Locket…

The locket is right where it belongs.

Forever.

You, the player, who objectively know Asriel was right outside of the game, inflict that great pain of betrayal on them and manipulate them into thinking you are the better partner by comparison. That Asriel wasn’t their best friend, but you are.

Chara doesn’t hate or even want to take over Frisk in this route. Far from it. That doesn’t mean they’re all sunshines and rainbows, though.

In pacifist, Frisk can get subjected to numerous bouts of impatience from the narrator (who seems to get weary and annoyed with repeated checks especially) but for the most part it seems like they’re trying to humor the kid.

Sometimes they turn repeated checks into little jokes, like the “Snow Poff” conversation, or this one if you keep turning the sink on/off:

But in this route they’re angry and impatient  The underlying fury of being “betrayed”, the potential for moral depravity that comes with being soulless having been met to its utmost, colors their every interaction with every being, including their new partner.

They snap at them upon checking the presents in Snowdin…

won’t offer up the “snowdecahedron” joke…

and offer very quick checks for a lot items.

The overall tone in this route is “What are you doing? Let’s go.”

But, even so, there are seldom occasions in which they actually remove control from Frisk McChecksalot (actually, the player).

In fact, you remain in control for most of the route, being able to move, act, and spare on your own with'' no interference. These occasions that Chara is acting stand out very starkly from the rest of the route because they’re the ones you can’t ''control.

…and they mostly seem to be a case of someone sitting next to you and yanking the controller out of your hands, going, “AUGH!!'' LET!! ME!! DO!! IT!!!!''”

But these actions aren’t all insignificant. Even though you, the Player, are at the head of this dust bath, and they are sitting back and letting you “guide” them for the most part (if you hit the fight button, the kill is yours) they make a few “contributions”.

They make an initial mistake in their narration (lmao) but they’re still suggesting battle plans for you, so you are actually the one fighting this fight, not Chara…mostly.

At the very end, that last strike is not from your input. After your attack is dodged, they quickly make a second - the first time they attack on their own.

and their first kill. Since LOVE hasn’t increased before their strike and is still 19, this proves they could have fought without your input but allowed you to be in control for this fight as well, even including the “Spare”  option. You were still “guiding” them.

After this, they then quickly march on to the garden, and kill the two people waiting there. Not because they don’t trust you to (after everything, I’m sure they’re fully expecting you to) but because, I think, they felt they should be the one to do it.

This route ends with their kill count technically at three, but as they feel they’re in partnership with Frisk and therefor an accessory to all the murders, they both share the LOVE and EXP for all kills.

Then…

They go on a spiel about the nature of stats, give thanks, praise, etc. Emphasis is placed on your actions being done willingly and their partnership. Here’s where things get interesting.

They give this option. This can be seen similar to a “fight” or “mercy” button, for the world this time. Obviously, they’ve been conditioned to expect you to choose “fight”, or “erase”.

Interestingly, they can erase the world themselves, but still provide an option dialogue for this. It’s as I said; they’re not interested in taking over. They believe they’re following your guidance (or what they think is Frisk’s, rather, but you are controlling Frisk) and a person can’t be guided if they take over all the time.

That, of course, doesn’t mean they can’t take over.

The option dialogues are a courtesy. Chara could’ve taken over at any time, but allowed you to do what you would - to guide them, one way or another, because they woke up confused and didn’t trust themselves after the failure of the plan. That’s what they meant.

You have led them on to believe this is what you were after all along. If you choose “erase”:

They’re like “right, exactly as I thought. You’re great, we’ll be together forever” and they’re practically making heart eyes. or whatever the hell those are "

As well as assuming this plan is to gain more of this "makes you feel not guilty anymore "LOVE" stuff. "  Who's stats do we see? "CHARA LV 1" Who's LOVE do we raise? "CHARA LV 20"  Chara and Frisk share bodies, what affects Frisk, affects Chara.

In the end of course,  we did it for no reason at all other than fun, and Chara, probably due to being raised right by Goatmom and their past as well as feeling betrayed after being convinced Asriel betrayed them due to what we taught them, only for us to betray them by either coming back to the game or choosing "Do not", decides to duel out some punishment for us believing we can do whatever we want without concequences.

"Choosing no…

They get a little flustered, if not dismayed. I mean, they just killed their family not five minutes ago for you - including their best friend, who they thought betrayed them, who they replaced with you… who just betrayed them.

You were not after some lofty goal like destroying the world, you were killing because it was fun, because the world is your playground, when Chara assumed you were on some kind of mission. An appropriate amount of pissiness ensues.

Regardless of your choice, they strike down the world…

…not Frisk; this is erasure of world, visualized; the window of Undertale shakes, and we know what Frisk getting attacked and killed looks like.

If you wait on the screen for several minutes, making your intention to go back clear, and retroactively making it obvious you did the run for fun, not a “purpose”, they chew you out.

After venting their annoyance at you (and confirming this route’s actions were mostly on you), they suggest a compromise.

This confirms that, throughout the route, Frisk still had their soul. Otherwise, it couldn’t be used as a bargaining chip here.

You’ve never had your soul taken more politely. They asked for permission. They even double-checked to make sure. They give you want you want in return.

Except, it’s not your soul. Chara thinks they’re talking to Frisk when they ask for “your” soul (they think they’ve been talking to Frisk this whole time) and it is Frisk’s soul that they take. Otherwise, this…

…couldn’t happen. congrats. you just sold an 8~ year old’s soul. asshole.

Of course, that leaves the question of why they do this during these endings.

I believe they’re trying to hold you accountable.

It’s right after this statement that they suggest the “compromise”. If you kill everyone for fun, reset, and try to live happily after with them, they can now shut it down. They don’t really interfere in theneutral endings. You led them to their point of no return - killing Asriel - and they make sure you can’t return from it, either.

But if you bring back the world and don’t try to get a happy ending, they chew you out anyway.

“Kinkshamed again!”

- you, probably And they are so weirded out that they feel an obligation to tell you to do, literally, anything else.

“Despite me not understanding feelings anymore, I feel morally obligated to tell you to do something else”.

Some people have suggested this is to “kill humanity themselves” but. come on. LOVE is just yourwillingness to hurt. That shit cuts through monsters like a hot knife through butter, but out in the real world they’re just an angry baby with a gardening tool, humanity could fend them off with a wet mop.

On top of that, the destruction of humanity is literally only one soul away.

Asgore would have taken Frisk’s soul and wiped them out, and by killing the children up close and personal, he’s proven he has the mettle to do it. If Chara wanted humanity destroyed, they need only give Asgore Frisk’s soul. They could even inhabit the now completely soulless, determination-infused body like Flowey does if they chose. They do not ever go this route.

Plus, it’s a pointless act when they can already destroy the world, and Chara’s whole reason for being pissed at you is for killing when you didn’t really have a point, then dodging responsibility for it.

They don’t stop trying to hold you accountable on the second pass, either.

Functionally, you paid for the game so you have to be able to play it, but that doesn’t stop this pissed-off 12~ year old from appointing themself your final, unkillable judge if you choose to murder everyone just for funsies and then act like you can get away with it.

That’s why they’re here in this route. Chara is Undertale’s very last stand in a long, long effort to try to make you responsible for what you do here."   (which you can overrun by being a dirty hacker, sadly no metaphorical in universe mechanic Toby cooks up can fix that....  You really are a monster aren't cha?)

I rest my case.

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