Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180828235225

"The book didn't say that. Read it again."

It's a natural conclusion. "The true nature of SOUL is unknown. After all, humans have proven that they don't need these things to exist" is one implication, a deduction comes from the fact that if you're MADE of them, you really CAN'T exist without them-That's like water existing without oxygen atoms. Though, I suppose another conclusion could be that the monsters do continue to exist, but without their SOULs:Thus, everyone would have become SOULless. ...But Asgore still has his SOUL. And Toriel. And Undyne, Papyrus, Sans, Alphys (Lost SOULs of Asriel).. and over 300 more monsters (based on the number of monster SOULs absorbed by Asriel). I'm stretching things out just to help this idea, by supposing perhaps every monster SOUL we don't see doesn't exist but even then, it STILL doesn't make sense. The fact is, that book is contradicted by the evidence.

"Not false hope. True hope. The humans still died by his hand, and he still kept the souls."

Reaching the surface was the false hope:Not killing a few humans.

"No, someone else would be elected in his stead then."

Which is why he tries to lose on fight seven, and part of why he kills himself when spared. If he didn't kill himself, someone else would be elected anyway..

"There's not an endless amount of possibilities."

There is. Well, there's technically not, just as there's not infinitely many possible messages that anyone could give PERIOD. (It's massive, though.) Have an infinite number of monkeys typing messages on infinite typewriters, and one of them will completely write out Toby's intended message. ..By accident, and nobody but Toby would know that's his message.

"Extend Toby's message onto the surface and you've got an answer."

His message itself has practically infinitely many different possibilities. That's what my point is.

"No? I don't see any reason why the option should disappear."

Let's try this again. Now, at this point, it doesn't matter if the red soul is determination. If it's not, every human should tie with Frisk, and all be able to save and load. And it should be a common thing.. Well, more likely, the power will rapidly shift between every human on the Surface, based on the relative DT levels (it fluctuates, remember?) of the humans. If red's determination? Well, then STILL:1/7th of the population. There's no reason why Frisk should retain the power for THIS LONG.

By the way, the option doesn't disappear. We're back underground with Flowey, remember?

"Though I wonder, what's "true reset" all about? It doesn't leave any deja vu for anyone, and it only becomes available once the barrier breaks. I don't imagine you can "choose" who can keep his memories and who cannot. It wasn't our choice, it was the game's mechanic, that just happened to align with Flowey's plea for losing his memory of this run."

Right, there really shouldn't be a reason why we wouldn't be allowed to COMPLETELY disobey Flowey and make him relive everything as well.. And if it really WAS a response to that, and Frisk has that power, then everybody else should still be able to get their deja vu. Nothing.

"So, assuming that, the only explanation must lie with the barrier."

True. It also confirms that Chara managed to break the barrier when they destroy the world. So.. That means it's not just the underground they destroyed. So, there goes a theory!

"It's absence lessens the deja vu effect. And we know two things preserve memories: DT and friendship + stamina."

..Okay, where did you get that idea from? When has this EVER been mentioned?

"Somehow, a leakage happens for big, adult monsters that befriend you, as well as for Flowey. If these are supposed to have the same cause, I'd argue that friendship/caring generates DT."

Which can work:That even gets put into practice with Undying:She cared about the fate of everyone in the world, and that generated enough DT for her to persist past death. This is also how we were able to refuse against Asriel, and SOMEHOW get more DT than Asriel, yet were unable to have more DT than Omega Flowey.

"But by that extension, any enthusiasm would."

Perhaps. Not enough to fully heal your HP, else you'd gain HP from killing monsters in Genocide (smile appears as icon when battling monsters in Genocide) but still, a rise in DT. I guess only the type that relates to us, the being that resets, gets preserved.

"Maybe the presence of the barrier resonates within other essences too, and not just ours and Chara's, so fragments of others' essences get sent back in time too."

This makes sense. The Barrier encompasses all of the underground:There is no reason why Frisk and Chara should be the only ones resonating with the Barrier.

"I'd call this the "perfect transfer", as opposed to a true reset, where the barrier is missing, resulting in a loss of signal reflection and therefore an absence of essence allocation, and only our essence is preserved - an "imperfect transfer". Though somehow, giving Chara our soul can bypass this.

I have always ignored that line, shrugged it off as allowing their essence to take control of our soul instead, which they do at the end. Maybe, this action results in the weird power that moves essences back in time (I'd call this the "determination aether") grabbing onto their essence too, in addition to Frisk's. Though I am still pondering on the specifics of this act.

Likely because by doing this, we fused with Chara, in the same way that Asriel fused with Chara. This is how Chara can take over Frisk in the Post-Geno ending, once where Frisk's body turns to Chara's in a photo, and the other where Frisk's eyes turn red, and you get a Chara laugh. Since Frisk and Chara are now fused as one entity, just like Chasriel, they're both sent back. That's my take on the specifics, anyway.

"Also, the absence of a save file when you reset doesn't really mean anything. Maybe you can die for good when you don't have a saved file, but that's about it."

What it proves is that Frisk only gains the ability to S/L/R the moment they hit the underground. That's why a new file starts there, and a reset takes them there. Which means Frisk couldn't do it on the Surface. Plus the fact that Frisk didn't overtake Flowey until just before Flowey encounters Frisk.. There's something special about the Underground. And the Barrier would likely have to be the explanation.

"But they can be spared eventually. Why?"

I believe I've answered that question before. A lack of DT means a lack of firmness of purpose. They'd be a lot easier to sway than a human, therefore.

"Also, I bet some of them just want to pick on you, like the Snowdin forest teenager squad."

This is almost certainly true for Jerry. The rest of the monsters? ..Probably not.

"We still don't know if other monsters can sense it. For what we know, even those that simply want to help you may accidentally kill you exactly because of this."

It's pretty clear that they can. If Toriel can, Papyrus can, Mettaton can.. Toriel's a Boss Monster, but Papyrus and Mettaton aren't.

"Sure. Which is why we cannot ignore it when resetting, but can when true resetting and didn't give our soul to Chara yet."

And then Asgore dies again, because you have to do Neutral a second time to get Pacifist a second time after a True Reset.

"He didn't want. But he still planned for it, because he knew people would attempt it. In the game, nothing forced you to do this."

True. Nothing forced you to do Pacifist either. The fact is, "Activity Level C" is Genocide. So, that's where the game ends. That's "100% completion" for you.

"In fact, Toby made it so that you would feel guilty for killing monsters. So he didn't."

Of course:Just like he made you feel guilty for killing Toriel the first time around and then resetting. (More than 80% of blind players kill Toriel to start with. The critical hit at the end is responsible for this, as their plan was to fight until she was almost defeated:Something a Froggit mentioned. This is a very clear case of railroading towards killing Toriel.)

"The intro is not undisputable, because nothing said it is. Why do you believe in it so much? It is just an empty narration. Breaking it isn't against the rules. There are no such rules, this is simply called a plot twist."

The intro's not what I used against the monsters-The Waterfall plaque was. By the way, taking the intro for what it is, and nothing more, there was a long battle.. And nothing more. That was one battle. Now, don't you think that really COULD hardly be a war? A war with literally only one battle? There's no reason to say there's a contradiction. The contradictions are between the Snowdin library, and Asgore's declaration of war, and the whole idea of monsters starting the war came from the beast depicted in the Waterfall plaques-Still not the intro. The only real thing I used the intro for was to show that the people who created the Barrier were in fact humans. Instead of, you know, some hidden third race that was never mentioned. Which I'm surprised you both believe in that, while at the same time, you say:"Why would Toby put them in, only to hide in a complex reason as for why they're false somewhere in the game?"

If that question applies to my theories, it applies to yours as well, when dealing with the intro. I'm sticking with my "Boss Human" theory, or the idea that wands like the one shown in the intro are what gave the wizards the power to create the Barrier.

"I don't understand what you're saying. Why would Toby deconstruct his own game's message?"

He didn't. He's deconstructing the nature of RPGs in general.

"The one about monsters being kind, hopeful and hurt by humans?"

As I said, doesn't have to be his message. Stop assuming things.

"If this was his message, why did he never object to people stating the opposite?"

Because either it WASN'T his message, or he's like Scott and lets us do what we want.

"Why did he dislike when they started calling the bad route the "genocide?""

Hmm.. Genocide's a bad name. A bad connotation. He objected when we gave the bad route a BAD name. Perhaps he didn't see it as as bad of a path as we did? That he DOESN'T consider it a massive genocide against a completely innocent race?

..That or he thought it was WORSE than a genocide.

"Which is why I'm saying they weren't attacking you, from their perspective."

But we just showed the book can't be used as evidence anymore. So you can't use that anymore. They ARE attacking you. That's exactly what this section was about.

"But that's exactly how I see it. It's a book. Written by someone. Someone that could very well be wrong."

Exactly.

"But TRY to prove them wrong! You can't."

The Underground was devoid of hope:Nothing happened to the monsters or their SOULs. Hence, the "rule" was broken:Thus-The rule cannot actually exist:Therefore, the book is wrong. No meta sources here.

"You must resort to meta sources, such as the intro."

The only time I've used the intro was for "After a long battle", and that the seven magicians were in fact human. And I've reached the conclusion that the former does not create a contradiction with "In the end, it could hardly be called a war" after all, and the latter makes sense alone via Occam's Razor.

"But if the intro is meta, everything else is too."

..What?

"Yet you choose not to believe that. You think the past did happen, even though it WASN'T coded; you think nothing is preventing Frisk from leaping off a cliff, even though they WERE coded that way."

In both cases, there was evidence within the game against that. As I said, the monsters could have taken advantage of this quirk, and made a gap around 1cm wide. Just about any monster could step over it (Monster Kid falling proves monsters CAN walk off cliffs), and no human would ever be able to pass it. Well, probably not every monster could take advantage of it, since just as the rest of the HUD, much of it wouldn't be well-known, but Gaster made the CORE:Certainly, HE should have thought of that!

"So if the world isn't meta, why should the intro be? Obviously, the mere fact that it's an INTRO is disproving such an idea, so if we want to construct a new view here, we need to ignore that fact and look only at the information this intro is containing."

Right, long ago, two races ruled over the earth...

...Legends say that those who climb the mountain never return..

Wait, where did that legend come from? Chara was the first one to fall, right? And it was around before then.

..Looks like at that point, knowledge of the monsters was still around:They must have still known the monsters were there. The monster side of the story proves Chara was the first, after all. Makes me wonder why the humans decided to change a fact about monsters into "if you go in there, you will never return".. I mean, that part IS true:The Barrier makes it so, but.. It probably should have stayed factual for a while.

..Well, this is probably the same civilization who had myths about Olympus, pyramids, and statues all at the same time, and took them as fact, so humans in the 16th century probably didn't know what was fact and what was myth. (It was around the start of the Scientific Revolution, where people started to shift away from myths:The legend of monsters could have been mistaken for one of those, since it contained flat-out magic.)

"Just like I've ignored how the HUD works and only considered the buttons, the turns, and everything else, as mere simplifications of the actions that Frisk can take in-game."

Sans explicitly mentions some of these things, though. Therefore, the ones he mentioned are in fact real. He also abuses the button part, and we have a chance to do it back.

"The intro is... Chara's memory."

Indeed, at least the parts with Chara falling:They wouldn't be old enough to have lived the war.

"Now that we are on an equal level, we can compare a child's memory to a written word. I choose to believe the written word, considering I once thought Santa Claus was real."

But you've never SEEN Santa Claus. I couldn't go through your memories and find Santa there. I could see you go to sleep, wake up, and find presents, but no Santa. (Except in your dreams, of course.)

"Do you think the real world works like Undertale? It doesn't. Fights somehow happen in a meta space where everything is colored differently, you can't move unless you move your """SOUL""" onto some "buttons" and press "enter"... nothing like using your brain to move your limbs for example. This is what I mean."

The coloring was never mentioned or abused:Therefore, the reasoning I've used to conclude the turns are canon does not apply here. Now, onto the SOUL portion..

Your essence is contained within your SOUL at first:Flowey absorbed the six human SOULs, and you were able to get the SOULs to rebel-They were, in fact, sentient, meaning their essence was there, or was at least controlling the SOULs. So, when some kind of magic separates your SOUL from your body, which are you more likely to find yourself controlling-Your SOUL, or your body? If you guessed SOUL, you're absolutely right!

Your SOUL separates from your body, meaning you now only control your SOUL. Nothing else. The rest is either the monster or the HUD's doing.

"There's a meta space for text, just like there's a meta space for encounters. Problem solved."

You know, that COULD explain why Chara has to read to Frisk, rather than Frisk just reading the sign themselves.. If they're the only one in that space. Hmm, maybe they're ALWAYS in that space, and that's why you can never see them? Save the one time they appear physically, speaking to you in some void dimension, WITH TEXT? This was before they destroyed the world, even. ...Though, you could also say Chara's void is the same as Flowey's void, and Chara's an invisible ghost.. Though, then we have to explain why Chara has to narrate everything.

"But never anywhere else. Maybe Chara is still in the overworld, or maybe they remembered it from a second ago when they were still in it. Or maybe this single line disproves that fights are canon, since obviously Chara stated something that wasn't shown on the screen, so the entire screen was lying (it only takes one example do disprove the whole, remember?)"

This single line disproves that fights turn the world into a black void with black and white monsters. Which I didn't believe in anyway. Of course the rest of the world is still there. Still says nothing about the buttons that Sans abuses, though.

"They have it, yet they don't feel it."

So, how is this "suppression" a thing, and what makes it different than someone just plain not having it?

"Facts such as, Toby made a game about murdering others, contrary to how he talks about it publicly?"

Facts, such as, whatever the game says. Let's stop using meta, and just go back to the game. What the game shows are our facts.

"Is that what you meant? That monsters deserved their fate, because they do nothing but harm you, think like children, started the war and spread misinformation to control the masses? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?"

Less than 50% want to harm you, and that's being UNgenerous to the monsters. (Low estimate for monster count, worst case scenario with monster encounters) In a more realistic approach to the number of monsters, it's less than 10%. Isn't that a reasonable number? Every race has members that wish to harm those outside of their race. That includes monsters. But just as with humans, that isn't the majority.

The misinformation is more than likely simply a result of the fact that history is written by the winners. Or.. losers, in this case, but they're separated from the humans anyway. Just like humans, monsters can get prideful, and speak of themselves as if they're better than they really are.

-The reason why they deserved their fate was because of the monster with a human SOUL illustrated in the Waterfall plaques.. Nothing to do with how they act towards humans now:There's still a war between humans and monsters, after all:Of course they'd attack the enemy!

All examples of this that you showed I've successfully debunked, yet you keep claiming you are correct nonetheless, because this is "how it is", since the intro is obviously above everything the monsters could ever say in their defense"

How many times have I used the intro in that reasoning? I counted zero. Waterfall plaques, the underground becoming devoid of hope, the fact that attacks DAMAGE you when green bullets exist, the fact that you can't spare most monsters immediately..

"so you're obviously right and always were"

Not always were. Remember ALL the times I've changed my stance?

"you are the smartest person on this entire forum, you cracked the mystery"

There's still many, many more mysteries in this game.

"you've discovered Toby's true message"

No, I haven't, I just said doing that is impossible. Why would I claim to have done it, even as I say that's impossible?

"everything makes sense now, no one can disprove you"

You can disprove me:Just use the game instead of a bunch of meta-arguments. I'm sure if there's a problem, somewhere in the game, there's going to be a contradiction to my theory. Just go ahead and use that instead of meta speculation.

"you have the holy truth now, that Toby is a sly, deceitful bastard..."

Wouldn't call it holy, and we already have Scott Cawthon. I'd say he's closer to Alex Hirsch, though.