Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31981697-20170722123329/@comment-32182236-20170801010147

Tsskyx wrote: I wrote a long reply to this reply of yours, but it disappeared :C

So here's my attempt #2:

1) Asgore had to fight, for the hope of his people. He was doing it for the entire monsterkind. That's why he was so strong for the most time. No doubt he gave up when we came though.

2) Humans can have varying levels of determination. That is true. But just acknowledging the fact that all humans had the ability to SAVE/LOAD/RESET makes the "red soul being the soul of determination" theory rather redundant (I'll go into more detail below).

3) So Toriel was alone for a thousand years? Geez, you really can push it just to prove me wrong. But still, I'll take Sans's word for it and say it was a century.

4) Yeah, well then they would have to die at two places, don't you think? None of the items except for the yellow and purple gear is found together. There might be many reasons why they have abandoned their items. Look at the underline AU for example. It shows quite a few of them.

4.1) Well WHAT is the source of Asgore's knowledge about the HUD then? If not the previous kids, then what? You could say that since there's a link between Sans and Alphys, that Alphys might have shared Sans's knowledge with Asgore, but honestly, I don't think Sans would have told Alphys THAT much. And besides, we don't even know how much Sans really knows in the first place. And also, the breaking of the MERCY button is purely meta (continue at 4.2).

4.2) We can't assume that everything that's "meta" in the game is actually a part of the story itself. Otherwise we would end up with a total mess (like Frisk naming Chara, as if they are the player, not us). You need to know the fine line. The Omega Flowey battle is really on the edge, going as far as portaing Toby's face in it, but really, you have to understand that that's how Toby expressed himself. The story can either be normal and well-established, or we can make the HUD a thing in the Undertale universe and then settle with something like Glitchtale as the canon continuation of the storyline. Yuck.

(6) 5) Welp. If you say so. But I say that we simply had to make the souls remember. They already had DT in them (Alphys extracted it, remember, so they must have had some), and so they could rebel at any time. But at some point they chose to give up their powers. Like Chara did at their deathbed. If Chara had a red soul (red coffin), then they must have had the same powers as Frisk according to you, and THEY gave up this power. The only way to continue was to lose. The other humans experienced something similar too. They've lost and came back, and lost and came back, and lost and came back, and lost and gave up. The only way to break free from this loop of losing torture was to lose. To give up. They just couldn't fight Asgore. Just because we can defeat every monster in the game (even Sans) doesn't mean the other humans could too. Also, if we assume that all humans had the same powers as Frisk/Chara (and they did as I've already pointed out before), then what would assigning DT as the red trait be good for? We already do know that humans can have varying levels of DT, but without any proof that this assignment actually influenced something, we can't assume anything. I've successfully ruled out the hypothesis Frisk's DT is greater than the DT of the other kids, and proved the hypothesis that they all had an access to the same powers, and showed that they just needed some mental reminding at the very least. Ergo, I've ruled out the need for the red DT soul theory. You can still say it's true, but it won't make a difference.

(999) 6) Ugh, why are you doing this? There's no correlation between the colors. The truth is, Toby is a simple but clever person. Remember, "what would Toby do". Would he create complex links, or just build up from meta to story?

Stop moving - cold - cyan.

Move - hot - orange.

Blue attack - made to deceive the player - we think it's the cyan one, but then our soul turns blue - the reason this color is another shade of cyan is because Toby tricked us.

Muffet - purple theme - purple.

Alphys - yellow theme - yellow.

The soul - heart - blood - red.

Last remaining color: Green. Last remaining monster/attack type: Undyne. Green = Undyne.

=
======================== That's how the colors were made.

1)So why didn't he just do what Toriel suggested for the same reason? It's for the hope of the monsters, and would free everyone quicker. And why give up when you're so close? There's a reason why Asgore destroys your MERCY button. He has NOT given up when you came in, and is still perfectly willing to fight you, to the point of removing your ability to end the fight peacefully. But, this does bring up the question:If Asgore knew the HUD well enough to destroy your MERCY button, why not destroy your FIGHT button also, making the battle literally impossible to win?

2)I'm saying these humans did not have enough DT to make USE of that ability. That monsters like Undyne still have more determination than these. Humans can store massive ammounts of determination, but that doesn't mean they all actually CONTAIN that much determination. We also don't know when Flowey or the Amalgamates were created-We just know Flowey had to have been created after the second human died-Otherwise, Alphys wouldn't have a SOUL to extract determination from. (Chara's SOUL shattered) And since Flowey was created alongside the Amalgamtes, they too must have been made after the death of the second human. It would take someone as determined as Frisk to override Flowey's determination.

3)When did Sans say it was a century? I only recall two times Sans spoke about Toriel at all-In the MTT Hotel, when he mentions a voice behind the door he told jokes with, and a promise he made to protect any human that walks by, and in the True Pacifist Epilouge, where he finds out Toriel WAS that voice. In fact, since Sans didn't know the voice was Toriel, he never met Toriel, and might not have even known who Toriel was at all! Besides, that pan had to get itself burnt somehow!

4)Underline is about the time with Chara and Asriel-Not the six fallen children afterwards. So.. It wouldn't exactly explain what happened. Also, the orange gear is found together as well, with the other three sets all being found within the same region. While some of the humans may have left their stuff, the yellow human would not have-Their stuff is the most useful. And it just so happens to be one of the three humans whose stuff was all found together-In the dump. Also, if they all had the same power, they would also have an inventory just like we do. We can't slip and fall, dropping our items in Undertale. Besides, why didn't the human who just lost their item just reload? Unless of course they never had that power to begin with.. Next is the green human. The only reasonable time to leave your item is if you found a more useful one to swap it out with. This would be that of the yellow human's item-The others are less useful. This would therefore mean the only reasonable way the green human could have swapped out like that would be if the yellow human's items were originally in Hotland, and later got carried to the dump. But the dump is BEFORE Hotland, so this wouldn't make sense:Why would this green human, or any human afterwards who found these items, go all the way back to the dump with these items?

The humans losing their items by accident could make sense, but ONLY in a world where they do not have literal Save Scumming by their side. So, we have two possibilities:Humans could SAVE and LOAD, and had to die where they did, somehow dying twice, or they couldn't and lost their stuff by accident, with no way to reverse it. The latter actually makes sense, and is actually my new headcanon. Perhaps they did all make it to Asgore after all. But WITHOUT the ability to SAVE and LOAD. Anyways, where's an AU that's ACTUALLY about the six fallen humans, and not about Chara?

4.1)The previous kids could not have taught Asgore meta-knolwedge, just by fighting Asgore. He had to learn it some other way. Like Sans, for example. Sans may have directly told Asgore, too, in an attempt to save the monsters. And we DO know Sans is aware of the HUD, attacking you THROUGH the HUD, when it's your turn. He's also aware that the game is turn-based, and the ability to SAVE and LOAD. The ability to SAVE and LOAD is a big one. He could have told Asgore.

4.2)Frisk IS the player. We are Frisk. Why are we assuming otherwise? We're calling out to Chara, that's how we awaken Chara, and how they become the narrator. We give them a reason to live on-To awaken themselves through pure determination. Because yes, Chara has the same abilities as Frisk. When Flowey gains the ability to SAVE and LOAD, the file name changes to Flowey. And yet, when we gain it again, it changes back to Chara's name.. Why is this? There seems to be a massive connection between Frisk and Chara. Same SOUL color, same "sense of fashion".. They'll be together forever, won't they? Also, it was a TROLL face that was portrayed, not Toby's face.

Sans and Asgore prove the HUD is a thing in Undertale. Therefore, it's the ONLY way to make a well-established story, as it has to be self-consistent. We've seen things that looked like consistency errors, such as there being no flowers in the intro, but flowers existing when the game actually begins, but later on, we learn that these were two completely separate events. We shouldn't make that same mistake again. There IS an in-story explanation for all of this. We just need to find it. And I think I did find it.

5)Calling out for help wouldn't exactly help remind someone of who they were. Telling familiar puns and mentioning what you did in the past with them like in the Asriel right would, though, as that actually explicitly refers to past events. Remember, in the Asriel fight, you can't just MERCY->Spare or ACT->Help to get the monsters to join your side. You have to actually act in a way that reminds them who they are. Two VASTLY different scenarios.

They didn't give up their powers by dying. Chara didn't give up their powers by dying either-Otherwise you wouldn't be able to awaken them in the first place.

If all the other humans had the same powers as we did, than they SHOULD have been able to do everything we did. To kill every monster, including Sans. Sans WANTED to fight Frisk, and still lost. If the other humans had this power too, they could eventually win, the same way we did. Also, I continue to stand by the humans NOT having the same powers as we did, and that being why red is the trait of determination.

6)Toby already HAS created complex links. At the very start of the game, we could have figured out that the human who fell wasn't us, by analysing the two scenes, and pointing out that that in the intro, there were no flowers. That shows us that theorizing this way can be, and actually was at one point, successful.

Red is more often associated with heat than orange. Red attacks would therefore be the one used here. Toby also could have made green mean move, and red mean stop, to go along with the traffic lights.

Each if the colors having their own distinct trait also works metawise-And if they all combine to make white, that too is a reference to how all the colors of light make white. Or, we could use white as a blank-slate, and insert the color of each trait! Where did the traits themselves come from? Not the SOUL modes, the traits.