Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20190716003715/@comment-32182236-20190815233505

Flowey is convinced that FRISK is Chara.

And Flowey is aware that the narrator is separate from Frisk.

Here's what I imagine his line of reasoning to be:


 * Premise 1:The human I'm speaking to is Chara (faulty premise, but he believes this)
 * Premise 2:The narrator is not the human I'm speaking to
 * Conclusion:The narrator is not Chara (valid argument, though false-Premise 1 was false)

As for the entity that Alphys researched.. If you look at the analysis more thoroughly, it makes more sense for Alphys to have been researching the multiverse theory itself, rather than our existence.

Of course, if this entity does exist.. Surely, they'll give us a sign, right? If you're here, give us a sign right now!

*cricket sounds*

That settles it, doesn't it?

Now, back to refuting specific points.

So do you mean that there's an audience constantly watching at Sans in the whole snowdins forest in the same direction as the player?Yeah that a bit absurd...

It needs not be constanly watching. This scene only happened once, with three puns happening consecutively. And Papyrus had already prepared lots of puzzles at the time, with a new multi-colored tile puzzle. It was pretty clear that Papyrus was going to do something with them.

Then came the bits about Papyrus yelling at Sans for being lazy. Thus begins the comedy act...

So no. They don't have to constantly be following Sans and Papyrus to watch them, nor do they need to be constantly watching them. Of course, it could also be that Sans was simply glancing off to the side. That would be his right..

And I'm not sure about the other times you cited, but Frisk definitely doesn't just look at the screen automatically when watching the tapes. They actually watch the tapes:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da0H0LUEaUQ

And immediately after they watch a tape.. They would logically have to put it back where they found it. So, what direction would they be facing when they return backward from the case? When they walk back to slightly in front of the TV, rather than the tapes on the bookshelves, which are slightly forward from where Frisk watches the tapes from?

Deltarune is a world with different characters, who have lived different lives. But Gaster is a link between them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/9t4cws/deltarunecom_on_the_wayback_machine/

Hidden messages existed on the website long before the release of Deltarune's demo. One that is a direct quote from Entry 17, and another that gives the prophecy of the Delta Rune from Deltarune.

Gaster is a character that we never seem to have encountered in Deltarune..

Q:So there's no connections between the two games?

A:It's a different world that might even have different rules. That doesn't mean there will be no connections at all though.

Chara climbed the mountain in the year 201X and 6 others childreen fell in the underground so a couple of 20 years or more,Undertales story happens arround the year 2100 so i wonder how is that supposed to work.Or are you saying that it only the "day"that changes??I wonder what is thr point of it.And occam razor suggests that its rather related to our world.

Yet, if you look at the Surface, it looks like modern-day, and if you look at how Chasriel (the fusion of Chara and Asriel) died, they died in Chara's home village, and were struck blow after blow, as if guns hadn't become the main weapon at the time-That would be shot after shot.

Combining that with the somewhat antique gun that exists as the Steam Badge for the Empty Gun, and the gun we see in Photoshop Flowey's fight, placing the Justice human in the past, Chara must also be in the past.

It doesn't seem like what the monsters call 201X is the same as what the humans would call 201X.

Frisk hasn't actually disobeyed our actions. You might try to cite Chara's "what, you didn't do that" when it comes to laughing at Snowdrake's mother, but the narration mentions Frisk crying.. Which isn't a part of the command of "laugh". So it's more likely that Chara is surprised that no, tears didn't run down Frisk's face. We never selected "Cry", so Frisk didn't cry.

Undertale always subverted all this classical rpgs tropes like the save load options ,sellers function etc...So i think that a bad argument

I was demonstrating what I believed to be the relationship-Not that it is simply because the other games do that-Though if I did, that would be a hasty generalization fallacy that I would have commited.

All this fight proves is that he can manipulate his world by hacking the game.

Which doesn't make sense unless Flowey was also the player at one point. So Frisk isn't special after all. Whoever has the most determination is the "player". Which doesn't make sense if players and characters are fundamentally different.

It appears that being a player is something you can ascend into, not something that you are naturally. Which means it's not quite a "player" in your usual sense of the word:Someone who exists outside of the game world, controlling a character inside of it. Yet, in a way, it also still is a player, as they have all the powers of such.

If you were inside of a game world, and all game mechanics were canon.. What experiments would you use to determine which character is the playable one, supposing that you were an NPC?

Also, there's still my argument that Flowey, in fact, was NOT hacking. He couldn't have been. If he did.. He could have used it in other ways too. Like preventing us from killing him. Or maybe just editing the save file to undo the times we freed the SOULs by calling out to them, rather than our progress with the SOULs getting saved even when we die.

Maybe he figure out in this ending that they are controled by the player since its otherwise impossible to get this ending ?

But how did he know that it was an ending at all?

Yeah but that doenst change the fact that its a reference to the player

But it never WAS a reference to the player. It was just a game that happens to vaguely resemble the Undertale logo with a mushroom below it. The game that Mettaton describes as a game where you make strange allies.

Let's compare the game Mettaton describes, which I'll call "Overtale", with Undertale, to see if they could be the same game.

Overtale is an action-packed game. Not a game of choice, or a game with story, but an action-packed game. The enemies and allies are both strange.. to the monsters, who happen to be the monsters of Undertale.

Mettaton appears 3/4ths into the game.. This is actually accurate with Undertale.. But it doesn't make the other inconsistencies go away.

Also, the "attractive robots" is plural. So there's more than one. Mettaton's the only attractive robot we see in Undertale (Yes, I'm counting Mettaton as "attractive"-This is Mettaton thinking, and we all know he thinks highly of himself-It makes sense for him to count himself.)

Overtale also features up to six dialogue options at once. ...This is a claim that I actually can't verify when it comes to Undertale. Can someone present a case where Undertale gives you SIX dialogue options at once? I've seen six act options at once, but they're not all dialogue.

Either way, there are still inconsistencies in the idea that Overtale is the same as Undertale. And Overtale is the game we see in the dog room.

So the game we see in the dog room cannot be Undertale.

As for the intro? Is there even any evidence that the intro is canon? Here, have this quote from the OP:

"If it is not mentioned or demonstrated at all by anyone, it cannot be said that it refers to anything canonical, and could be an imperfection in the medium used to show us the canon. This is similar to how if you see a ghost... But nobody in the crowd around you sees it... The ghost is probably a hallucination or some kind of illusion (don't worry, a significant portion of the population has "seen" a ghost at some point in their life. This isn't an abnormality.)"

I don't think the intro has ever been mentioned. Ever. Turns have, by Sans. But the intro?

Is the name change to "Undertale:The Musical" during his dance song canon? If so, then that would mean Mettaton is also aware of the meta. Yet he dismisses Alphys' claims on the idea of someone out there watching her.. Despite "knowing" that it's true. So it doesn't make sense for that to be canon. So we eliminate the title change from being canon.

Is the intro glitching up canon? If it were, that means the intro CAN be glitched up in the first place.. By the characters within it. This would essentially make Undertale a virtual reality, in which the characters, if smart enough, could hack from the inside.

Why hasn't Flowey exploited this in his time as a flower BEFORE Frisk showed up?

He tried doing everything he could.. EXCEPT for hacking. He never succeeded in getting Asgore to show Flowey the SOULs.. Even though he could have just made his attack go high enough to one-shot Asgore.

...It doesn't make sense for Flowey to do what he did if he really could hack.

So, it's best to conclude that Flowey couldn't hack. So the hacking the intro isn't canon.

And Flowey very well could have killed well before Frisk showed up, and that's where his LV came from. He nearly one-shot Frisk in the tutorial, and no other monster is this strong-Not even Sans. If it wasn't for Toriel, Flowey's fight would literally be impossible.

Sparing appears in Hard Mode as well. ...And if Hard Mode is separate completely from Normal Mode.. Why aren't they two separate canons? Why would Hard Mode prove anything about Normal Mode?

When we canonically spare Toriel, she just decides to let us go to the Ruins. What she was specifically setting out to do. What she has ALREADY DONE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0-wsrSTxVg

So the annoying dog would have no reason to question why Toriel wasn't doing what she was supposed to be doing. She most certainly IS doing what she's supposed to be doing. Unless you killed her, in which case, yes, she's supposed to be dying, but isn't.

And the world literally being a game beating out evolution? ...We have no reason to assume that natural selection doesn't exist.. The humans are all left-handed for basically no reason at all.. And SAVE is scientifically reducible to a substance known as "determination"-Something that doesn't make sense if it was purely a game. The save ability should be a special anomaly-Not something that is pinned down to a physical substance.

The evidence supports a naturalistic reality when it comes to Undertale-Not an information-based or idealistic reality. (I'm talking about idealism, not an ideal world.)