Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20170602170443/@comment-32182236-20180119222755

"Chara's been there before - many of the monsters wouldn't be able to trick him when they've been an adoptive prince before and lived among them, and even if they initially could, once they realise they're damaging Frisk with their attacks, such deception would obviously not work."

Or it would. The monsters explain that away with being that their damaging bullets just being their way of communicating.

"Besides, if Chara was so evil in even the good playthrough, why don't they lie about what the monster tells them to help convince the player to strike back and begin Genocide?"

Because they want a TRUE partner. They want someone as evil as them. They want someone who would attack anybody, even if they KNEW the victim was innocent.

"As such, they'd never bother mentioning stuff like 'does she secretly like you'"

That annoyed Tsunderplane. I'd say Chara was purposefully trying to annoy Tsunderplane for the extra EXP. After all, picking on Look before killing him nets you some extra EXP. Plus, if a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken. So, now you know he has somewhat weaker defense. So do it. Kill it. =)

Okay, don't kill it. Don't want to give Chara physical form. But hopefully you get the point.

"What of the many times monsters don't even use bullets? Migosp alone often dances, for example."

Migosp was in the Ruins, taught by Toriel rather than Asgore. The Milgrim experiment works both ways, after all, and 10% is pretty small for that. ....Hm, maybe that's why the Froggt just leaves when Toriel tells it to, and why many tell you about MERCY.. Around 40, 50% of the monsters in the Ruins seem to be quite peaceful.. Around the same amount that would go against their morality in favor of authority as demonstrated by the Milgram experiment. Hmmm....

"What of all those Temmies? They do nothing while you're there."

TeM.. ATTAK? WaT ThAt SUPOSED TO MEaN? Go To DA TEM SHOP!!!

WAT.. KILL THE HUMAN? BuT ThEN HOW will ThEY GiV MONeY FOR COLLEG?!?!

...Temmies aren't the smartest of creatures. Plus there is "Special enemy Temmie" that DOES attack.

"What of allll that time you're moving about?"

That's when they attack you, of course.

"They could set up physical traps - clearly they have the technology to build massive and complicated structures, so how best to beat a human with a much more powerful soul?"

You think the average person could just use that advanced technology with ease? Most probably wouldn't be able to operate it.. They'd be like Papyrus in that matter.

"Think about it - a lava pit, spikes, you name it, we could've easily been killed if everyone was in on it. This also has the plus side of avoiding damaging your soul."

Once again, they don't know HOW. Just as most people don't know how to make a computer. So, they do the next best thing-ENGAGE IN BATTLE! But, those who DO know how to make puzzles do... Also, you do know that the puzzle has to be solvable, or else the monster wouldn't be able to pass either, right..? The monsters don't want to kill their own kind, after all...

"Not to mention the problems I have with chara being the narrator in non-genocide runs and with Chara being pure evil in all runs..."

Let me guess-You're one who believes Chara was GOOD in the pacifist run, and is "corrupted" by you in Genocide? Check out this thread, where I discuss Chara's evil nature, and how the corruption theory doesn't make sense. We can discuss Chara's evil nature there-But if Chara is good, that actually gives me more points here, because if they're good, they're not going to lie to you and say the monster is evil if they think the monster is good, and the problem you presented is null and void.

"For one, clearly Frisk knows why they escaped Mt. Ebott, whereas we the player don't."

That's just what Asriel assumes. Also, like I said, the relationship between Frisk and the player is we're supposed to roleplay them. In the case of why we escaped to Mt. Ebott, we're supposed to make up a reason and roleplay it. Why DID you start this journey, player? Why did you climb the mountain? The game wants you to roleplay it out. Or...not answer at all, because you're not given a chance to answer.

"The narration doesn't worry us because there's no way to know the narration is Chara/not a game mechanc initially, whereas the in-game character Frisk/any sane human would obviously react to a voice in their head/a being that takes over its speech at certain points."

As I explain later on, Frisk READS the narration. They're not worried in the slightest. And Chara doesn't take over their speech, they have their own voice. This is why monsters are reminded of Chara, because Chara is there. Just not visible...

"Timeline is wrong, into says Mount Ebott 201X then a human falling and then "name the fallen human" which we now know was Chara."

201X on the monster calendar. Monsters use a differebt calendar than us, because we don't put X's in our years. (Yes, the year is LITERALLY 201X. The calendars in Home and New Home prove this. If it was the narrator being unsure of the year, they would figure out the year by reading the calendar. Therefore, the monsters use a different calendar.)

Now to your side. We know from the TP ending that Frisk fell around the present day.. We know from the intro that the war happened in the Middle Ages (800-1100? This was elaborated on here:https://undertale-science.tumblr.com/post/131946529734/these-three-scenes-show-us-a-lot-more-about-the) We also know that a total of eight humans fell-The first being Chara, and the final being Frisk. The most statistically likely scenario is that the humans fell at a steady, regular interval, with around the same time interval between each human falling-Perhaps around 120-200 years per human. So Chara would fall quite far back in the past. This would also explain Toriel's cell phone being "ancient"-It IS ancient-Centuries old! No way the eight humans all just so happened to all randomly fall in the same decade out of more than eight centuries of time.

"The HUD screen is at least partially a gameplay contrivance - treating all meta stuff involving it as literal turn-based events is a leap in logic."

Sans abuses it, so it's canon. Sans explicitly mentions turns and refuses to attack, so that it would be forever his turn. This confirms turn-based combat is canon. By your logic, SAVEs can't be canon because it's a gameplay contrivance.

"What of Undyne attacking you ingame, or Metatton?"

Even though they initate the battle, you're STILL given the first move. Well, except for our determined Undyne, but her only move is to turn your SOUL green. Not an actual attack.

"Again, you don't address their ability to just make another defensive barrier with more than 7 souls/combine their powers similarly for offense, and allll the time they've had to advance in soul power usage."

"Alll the time they've had to advance in soul power usage" would be about 30 minutes. One the monster gets a hand on one SOUL, it could kill more huams and gain their SOULs at an alarming rate. That human right there? KIL IT! It's SOUL is MINE! Oh look, another one. I'll take that SOUL!

And once he has seven, he has full control over the timeline. So. at that point, well, let's just say they're boned. They're now fighting against a god of hyperdeath. And the rate can eve be exponential-Now that he has seven SOULs, he can kill a group of six all at once (Actually, more like 40 if they're not making a barrier, as Asriel had the power to destroy an entire village with one SOUL). The village would be decimated in less than an hour. And the monster would have a village full of SOULs to use to decimate the leader, and just kill of all the guards.

"The control was split, and it was Chara who was going through with it - Asriel saved the humans by resisting Chara."

All the humans saw was Asriel going through with it-They weren't aware of Chara. In fact, they believed Asriel KILLED Chara to get to the Surface in the first place. Also, Asriel did go through with invading the Surface would in the first place-It's only after the villagers ALREADY attacked that Asriel started to resist Chara.

Also, what was the punishment for invading territory back in the 1200s? Because that's the time period we were in, so those laws are what applied. (Yep. When I said 1600s, I mistakenly believed the range for the war was 1100-1400, aka the medivial era. I'm being generous with 1200, the true average is 1125.)

"Your explaining away the redundant comments isn't adequate - why doesn't Chara, early on, if you're starting to go pacifist, just plain tell you something like "They're trying to kill you, look how harmful their attacks are, show no mercy"?"

You already aborted the Genocide Route. The only way to get back to it is to RESET. Chara wants things to be hard enough so that you'd reset out of being stuck. I mean, if they said "Hey, you let him survive-Restart your journey just to kill him.." Would that even be beliveable?

"Wouldn't Frisk find this behaviour infuriating in a pacifist run, and call out Chara on it?"

Chara wants Frisk to be infuriated enough with the situation that they RESET out of it.

"Does this not match up with my first point, where if you're assuming Chara wants to drive the player to genocide, they'd want to help the player and call the monsters evil to make Frisk more prone to genocide?"

That's what they do at the start. They say the enemy attacks (Note the enemy didn't attack yet, because you have initiative), and they want you to attack THEM in retaliation, and kill them. Start sparing them and aborting the route, and you're a lost cause-You have to reset to get back on the genocide.

"Oh, and I meant they INADVERTENTLY attacking yout souls, mb on that."

The attacks home in on the SOUL, and are aimed at the SOUL. Its not inadvertent, it's on purpose.