Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-27136653-20171226213715

TheHumanAmbassador

You wanted a reply? Here, have a text bomb.

"The Red flag does, by identifying the six said personality traits by color."

I believe the red one was made as a challenge. It's strange that the condition itself (earn every other flag) is not present, but it's still very difficult to obtain it, as you must play accurately (I assume this means no bouncing against walls) and do it under 10 seconds. That's something one achieves only after many tries, so it could be thought of as a culmination of your journey. Not really as a sum of the preceeding events. After all, as I said, it's not a condition.

As for that message which you get when you do it for the second time, that's the classical post-pacifist related message: "you continue to be yourself". So it takes a lot of effort but in the end, you haven't changed. I actually don't know what this means, but I did wonder about it several times already. Remember that Tumblr post where I speculated that this might be proof that the red trait is the "default" one? Of course, that's just a theory, and it's definitely not what Toby planned here. But to understand this, we must understand what he meant by this message. My guess would be that he was trying to purport the message that the character we're playing as isn't actually us. That goes hand in hand with the biggest spoiler in the game, and that is the reveal of Frisk's name. It's supposed to make you realize that you're not Frisk. At least, not spiritually.

So... neither of those messages really have anything to do with the other traits. The red flag is rather a reflection of your overall journey, and this definitely cannot be a personality trait. What WOULD such personality be anyways? Determination? Being yourself? One is too similar to perseverance, and the other one is too whimsical. Maybe red isn't a trait. Which would mean, that the other colors are just "addons". Ergo, Frisk is free of their influence when red, they are "themselves". They are free to move about, their battle style isn't constrained in any way.

Something like this would be very difficult to describe as a personal trait, but in the context of a battle, it works flawlessly.

"The discrepancy between the green trait ("Your care and concern for Ball", the enemy) and the green SOUL mode (Just caring for YOURSELF.)"

It is just as I said. You're making the incorrect assumption that the ball is the enemy. The ball is merely an object. A tool to help conveying the message.

(Taken from here: http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Snowdin/Puzzles#Ball_Game)

For cyan, the ball is the enemy.

For orange and blue, the ball isn't even mentioned.

For purple, the ball is the game itself.

For green, YOU are the ball.

For yellow, it may look like the ball is the enemy, but the grammatical object here is actually the word "mayhem", so the enemy is actually the mayhem the ball created, while the ball is... something else.

<p style="font-weight:400;">And for red, the ball is the game again.

<p style="font-weight:400;">...

<p style="font-weight:400;">In short, the word "ball" is thrown about seemingly randomly. So the assumption that it represents the enemy is groundless. The ball game itself is just a one big metaphor - something that you have HUGE problems with recognizing. In fact, this entire game is filled with metaphors, but you always just interpret them literally and completely twist their meaning in the process. A great example would be Asgore smashing the MERCY button.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"No, he LITERALLY did it, meaning that Sans told him about Gaster's findings." <- you in a nutshell

<p style="font-weight:400;">...

<p style="font-weight:400;">And besides, you're taking this discrepancy between the ball game portraying the supposed "enemy" as someone you have acted kindly to and the fact that you only act "kind" towards yourself in the game as a proof that SOMEHOW the green trait does not really act how we've seen the green mode act in the game, going as far as saying that such split in meanings is present for ALL traits, without providing any proof and ALSO, that the two are totally unrelated. All because you WANT the color of a soul to represent that soul's personality and not because of some evidence that would be pointing you towards such conclusion.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Listen, all I'm saying is that the statement that the color of a soul is a representation of that soul's owner's personality is unsubstantiated. That there's no proof, no hinting in the game at such fact. And just a random note here, if that were the case, we would have dozens of hypothetical traits, but the game sort of implied that only 7 exist (recall how it summarized the red by mentioning the 6 others and no more than that). But the fact is that humans have far more than just 7 personality traits. Unless you're prepared to assume that the humans are drastically different from the real-world humans just to refute this argument. In which case, I'll give up and let you believe whatever fanon you want to believe. Still though, that won't be proving you right, as this is just a random note.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">And that's all you're doing by blocking them off with the shield. To truly be kind, you must care for others. It could very well be that you only care about yourself, and this is almost certainly true in the Genocide Run." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;">And that's what I'm talking about here. You're still incorrectly assuming that the traits are personality-related.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Considering that the ball game mentions "original style", it's likely the former-But do note that you decide what these principals are... Hopping and twirling was the style, in this scenario." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Original style is implying you're going against the stream, that you're unique. Not that you choose something. And besides, in the context of the ball game, the original style is describing the way you hop and twirl. It's a compliment. You don't have to be original to have strong moral principles.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Only sometimes. It doesn't always do this. Therefore, the theory is flawed." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I wouldn't be saying that if that was the case. You are kind to your soul. Other times you just let it roam around without a shield. It's not important that it's your own soul. It's still an act of kindness to give it a defensive weapon.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">It's our own SOUL, the thing that gives us emotions. The thing that contains our determination. If our SOUL dies,  we<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> die. The same could be said about every other mode-I moved it away-I protected it! How  kind<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> of me to have my own soul jump over the bones and save my own life!" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;">In this case, it's unique. You can't deny the fact that everywhere else, we just let it sit in the battle box defenseless. If you think you know this game better than Toby Fox, then you're wrong. He made the deliberate connection between soul modes and traits, and no, he didn't "actually" divide them into two distinct categories based on one tiny discrepancy between the green mode and the green trait. They both fit, you just have to broaden the definitions a bit. As I said, stop being so strict, it then leads to disasters like this one, where you keep arguing that one tiny thing not fitting is an undeniable proof that everything is wrong. If we were to do it like this every time, no theory would exist. Undertale lore isn't perfect. Toby wen't deep, but not this deep. If you're gonna keep pointing out every single flaw in everything, you will never reach a conclusion. You keep debating about paradoxes but instead of removing them, you keep them in and remove your previous thoughts. The guy above me did the same thing and came to a conclusion that Frisk isn't a human. Don't be like that.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">If it can be applied to any mode, that just makes it stronger, doesn't it? My point is that the modes do not represent the traits exactly, and if we no longer single green out, the evidence is now much bigger. So I'll accept that the other traits aren't represented by their modes either. Hopping around isn't always your own, original style, after all." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;">HAHAHA, listen to yourself! You just said that the cyan mode isn't about patience! THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. If it doesn't fully represent it, it can't be it, and if it can't be it, then it's not patience and therefore, it's something else. But since then the same reasoning can then be applied, no trait can de facto fit any of the modes, meaning that the modes have nothing to do with the traits, which is in a DIRECT contradiction with the lore, which is portraying them as reflections of the traits. Why else would they be changing the color of your soul then? The fact is, that the cyan mode is patience, orange is bravery, and so on.

<p style="font-weight:400;">As for my own argument, I ridiculed your reasoning. All of those soul modes can be thought of as just self-preservation. However, the STYLE changes each time. And the key to understanding that style lies within the descriptions of the individual traits. Refuting a single style based on the self-preservation argument is nonsensical, as all of them can be refuted this way, but then we get to a conflict as I said. A style is present, so if it's not the soul traits, then what is it? Tell me? If the soul modes are all just different kinds of self-preservation, that all differ only in the style, then what IS that style, if it's not the different types of traits? Maybe the style is just that - the way our soul acts, how it is constrained. However, the correlation with the soul traits is so strongly present here, it cannot be ignored. Not only are the traits colored the same way, they also fit! I'm not saying it's a perfect fit, but why separate it just because it isn't, right?

<p style="font-weight:400;">Tell me, what does it give you to make this separation? The freedom to dream of more than 7 personality traits? The freedom to assign headcanons to the fallen humans? Unless you have a strong compelling reason I WILL call you out on this. Because to me, it seems like you're doing this just to make way for your own headcanons.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">How about the disrepency between the flag's definition of the green SOUL, and the actual mode that happens when Undyne turns you green?" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> Haven't I asked about red there? Nice avoiding of the subject.

<p style="font-weight:400;">'' " <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Not always-It's about what you do to overcome an obstacle, fighting or not. Fighting styles can be an extension of personality traits, and the actual names of these traits, "kindness", ect. show a personality. Kindness isn't a fighting style, it's a personality trait-But your fighting style could extend off of that." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Why is the ball always the enemy according to you then? And why would the soul modes be an extension of the traits if they have nothing in common? Pick one. Either they align and are an extension or whatever, or they don't align and have nothing in common. Don't say that the traits don't fit the modes if you also claim that they are an extension of it.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">There's the Red Flag, that flat-out lists the green trait as "kindness"." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Huh? Did I stutter? I know that green = kindness, sheesh. No need to educate me on the elementary. But you're STILL assuming that these are personality traits.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">It's in the past-tense, not future tense." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> That's a moronic argument. Gimme something better than just a grammatical technicality that doesn't change anything at all (fyi, it can foreshadow stuff even with a past tense; I mean, if already has this information, then nothing is preventing it from conveying it in any way it fancies; or rather, nothing is preventing Toby Fox from doing so). "Even when you felt trapped" is a direct reference to Muffet's battle. That's undeniable.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Protecting yourself in place requires you to also not be moving, does it not? So, that shows that the green SOUL mode contains a little bit of the light-blue trait inside of it. That is, if the modes accurately represent the traits, or "fighting styles"." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;">But it's not like it hurts you if you move. You actually can't move at all. That's a bit different. Plus, the conditions of Undyne's battle are even weirder. She gave us the spear, so I'm assuming the movement and flee restrictions came bundled with that. But then again, I see no point in those. After all, they have nothing to do with kindness. I think we've never resolved this argument.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">There IS a discrepancy-The trait is flat-out listed as "Kindness", and there's a proven distinction between care and concern for the ENEMY and fare and concern for YOURSELF. Look up the definition of kindness, and you'll see that protecting yourself isn't kindness." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Which is why I argued that the traits cannot be personality traits. You instead divided it into two nonsensical groups. Besides, it's not like I came up with this conclusion out of nowhere. I knew very well that there being only 7 personality traits is kinda weird in itself. And this seems to be supporting that idea. In short, you're doing it because you want to keep your heacanons intact. Your "theory" was created out of despair. I couldn't care less about such things, I'm just following logic here. The modes MUST be related to the traits, since they cannot represent anything else. And that proves that the traits cannot be personality-related.

<p style="font-weight:400;">God I sound like you already.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">SOUL traits help decide your default mode, which is only  partially<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> based off of your trait-But the mode can be changed without affecting the original source" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">But the point is, you don't NEED to make this distinction to make everything work! You don't need personality traits, it works without them. Occam's razor my friend. The discrepancy in the green trait is not proof that my theory can't work. Not if I remove the source of the problem, which is the assumption that personality traits are a thing. But YOU decided to keep it that way instead and in turn, you've crippled the meaning of the soul modes. You're also contradicting yourself. If these are not what the ball game is describing, then they cannot be related, they must be something else entirely. You can't on one hand claim they aren't the same and on the other say they are still similar. The ball game is directly describing these things, it isn't introducing any new concept. '''The discrepancy vanishes if we assume that the traits aren't related to one's personality. '''So I don't see what's the problem? Scrapping a single headcanon in order to resolve a paradox. What's so bad about that? Why do you keep approaching it from the other end, keeping the said headcanon in and instead saying the fault lies on the other side? Again, this is what Rafip did. They did exactly this and in turn came to a conclusion that Frisk isn't a human. Because they've decided to keep one idea in, and so were forced to assume bullshit. And besides, there's only 7 traits. How is this NOT a proof that these cannot represent personality traits?

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">All evidence within the game is significant, no matter how tiny." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Dude, we've been over this. Undertale is not a perfect game. Toby didn't know it would get so big and so he didn't bother to polish absolutely everything. There are still plot holes in this game. Claiming they aren't plot holes but are actually meaningful is bs. And no, he didn't intend to keep it that way, despite the chances he's had to update the game. He only ever updated it to fix bugs. I bet he couldn't care less about some lore facts here. After all, it's not about the lore from his perspective, it's about the impact this game makes on you. If you're so unsure whether something is a fact or just a plot hole, go ask him instead. But I'm telling you, if there's a paradox, there's a good chance it's a plot hole.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Soul power is NOT a trait. It's just how much power your SOUL has. <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Therefore, DT is soul power. There's no contradiction here, it fits, Occam's razor is happy, we can sing hippie songs happily.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">An alternate explanation could be that humans DO have magic, but just can't  represent<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> themselves with magic." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Ergo, they don't have magic. Obviously, their souls are magical objects, but they have no "free" magic like the monsters do. Their souls are for the most part filled wit determination. I already explained this headcanon once.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Humans have very little magic (the shell of their soul) but lots of DT.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Monsters have lots of magic (which is why they're white) but almost no DT.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The barrier was created with a magic spell. Humans CAN use magic. They just can't represent themselves with it" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">That's a direct contradiction. "Representing" yourself with magic means being able to cast it. At least that's how I understood it when the book talked about magical patterns. What would prevent a human from turning their magic into a dotted pattern? Ergo bullets? Just keep switching it on and off in short bursts, it's not that difficult.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Also, the thing about humans being able to use magic contradicts what I said above. There's no proof of humans having magic nowdays, so what makes you think that they had it back then? Humans don't have magic, that's canon. Meaning those 7 magicians who have sealed the monsters underground aren't human. This isn't a hypocritical statement at all. Rafip was an idiot for thinking that Frisk wasn't a human. Here however, I am using the info in the book to argue that the said magicians weren't human. "Seven of their greatest magicians" - they technically didn't call them "human", so they didn't necessarily have to be, in spite of this evidence.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Some people said that the humans' ability to use magic has vanished over the years, but the thing is, their consistency couldn't have changed. If they always had water instead of magic, then they never had magic. This theory is so crazy, yet flawless, I've even decided to turn it into a fanfiction. Take a look at it if you're interested <3

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Omega Flowey crashes your game after absorbing the six SOULS, and when you load Flowey's save, you're in a black void." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The crash is an out-canon event. We should be taking it with a grain of salt. Or perhaps, it's Flowey loading his save. After all, we also need to close the game to load. Of course, from an inner point of view, the world didn't get "closed". Flowey just pressed the Load button, just like Frisk did. And the save point and everything else in the void is just Flowey toying with you. If anything, it was supposed to be a dramatic moment that Toby planned, nothing we should be paying that much attention to.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">We can see Flowey's HUD in the Omega Flowey battle, where we basically swap roles with Flowey in terms of determination." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">We see only those save and load messages. We don't see the HUD itself.

<p style="font-weight:400;">And if you meant those random fight and act buttons, those are our own, and they probably aren't even literal. They could just represent a window of opportunity for Frisk, while for us, they manifest into something physically visible so that we can click on them.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The same Froggit says he doesn't know what "F4" even means, nor does he know what a "full screen" is-Though one could argue this "full screen" is yet another reference to the HUD." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Doesn't matter. The point is, that Froggit shouldn't have known that.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Yeah, it would. But the explanation still needs to explain EVERYTHING." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"> As I said, that may not always be entirely possible.

<p style="font-weight:400;"> " <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">And the Froggits never outright state it's a button on your keyboard" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I'm not sure what would they be referring to right there. And the other Froggit talked about skipping dialogue with the button X. They probably didn't mean the mercy button, so... Doesn't this pretty much prove that they've been talking about the keyboard buttons? I mean, we have a connection there, but we know of no in-game X or F4 buttons. Therefore, the most logical explanation is, that these snippets weren't canon. They were meant for the player only. Just like the HUD, or Flowey's final speeches.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">OR, we come up with an alternative explanation for as much as we can, without directly contradicting canon info." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">You JUST said you want an explanation for everything. Here are the only two ways to do that. You cannot cherrypick like that. I personally took the clear contradictions and removed them from the overall lore, since I know that a full explanation for everything isn't possible.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Simply put it-Evidence shows the world's not canonically code, but it also shows that the HUD exists." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I agree, but the HUD doesn't exist in the same form. That's because that form implies the world is code - something we've both refused to accept already. My explanation is to avoid the usage of buttons and turns altogether. Does that not make sense?

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">It's flavor text during Sans' Genocide Battle."

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Oooh, that's very nice. Still, I have the same explanation for that as for any other 4th wall breaking text, that it was meant for the player. I mean, the existence of the HUD as I said is impossible. The characters cannot be that dumb, and they for sure aren't being mind controlled to not notice it either. If we want to refuse the idea that nothing is "real" except for Frisk (kinda like in Oneshot), then we must refuse the idea of HUD existing in the form we see it in. Which then makes several things in the game, including this quote kinda meaningless. So once we remove this pivoting point, the purpose of everything else that was meant as a message to the player shatters too. It was a nice clever quote that Toby added, but just like anything else, it contributes to the nonsense that is the HUD. I acknowledge these things in Oneshot, since they're acknowledged and perfectly explained. But Undertale doesn't acknowledge this. It doesn't say anything about how meta it is, so it cannot be self-aware. What is the point of these meta snippets then? Their existence is paradoxical as on one hand, it is acknowledged, but on the other, it's not acknowledged for what it really is. | simply cannot accept that something with such broken logic can be canon. Maybe what Chara said there was actually something like "Waiting for me to finish this sentence doesn't seem like the best use of time."

<p style="font-weight:400;">If Undertale acknowledged these things for what they really are, I would believe it. I would believe it that Chara is literally typing on a keyboard or something to give a message to Frisk. But the game played itself right here. I cannot accept this idea.

<p style="font-weight:400;">"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">There IS an instance" 

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Flowey overwrote it with his own when he loaded his save file (which from our perspective caused the game to crash). This action probably confused the save file window, and so it said that Frisk's file has been erased. (Technically, that's how it looked to it - the file we were looking for wasn't there, it was gone. It still existed somewhere, but not there. This is why it said that it has been erased.) Or maybe, that was just Flowey's doing all along, to freak out Frisk.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">EXP still says 0. So you do start at LV1-Otherwise, you'd have already gained some EXP when you LV up to 1." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Good point. EXP is a non-resetting value after all. It doesn't loop and start over once a new level is gained. Though, maybe LV1 simply indicates a potential for gaining EXP.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">What they did was this:A is true (Fallen could save and LOAD). Therefore, B is true. (No SAVE and LOAD on the surface). But what did they use to prove that A was true? B! That's circular reasoning-You described argument by assertion, which is what happens when there's only one term-A is true because A is true." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I'm not sure where B came from, but A is a given truth. The proof is in the game. What were we discussing again?

<p style="font-weight:400;">''"<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Or, the fact that she guessed it right, as if she already knew us, reminded her, and gave her the opportunity to tell us that she feels like she already knows them." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">First, why would she try to guess it? Well, she did say why. She said  <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">she had a "feeling". And that's not just her being crazy, the o <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">ther characters also have that exact same "feeling" when we reset. She then says that when the humans fall, she ALREADY feels as if she knows them, proving that they had the same powers as Frisk - being able to reset. Save? Who knows. But Reset is confirmed.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">So overall I don't know what are you trying to prove here. This right here is undeniable evidence. Deal with it.

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Next, I was saying that if the characters wanted to, they would have killed Frisk right away. Set up impassable barriers in Snowdin, actually USE the deadly traps, etc. They wouldn't even have to engage with the humans in order to stop them. They all failed because they engaged with them on a close distance. And that was probably because they didn't have anything else prepared. Such AS, the aforementioned stuff. The thing is, after a century or so, they all kinda forgot this, so Frisk could be considered lucky (seriously, how difficult is it to stop an 8-12 year old kid?), but the previous humans weren't so lucky most likely.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">No, they didn't. They didn't have enough determination." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Now you're just denying it. Also, the OP isn't Toby.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">if there WAS no minimum DT required!" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Yes, if. And there probably is, considering that there is no mention of a monster behaving like this. Though, one conjecture speculates that Gaster did have this power.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Why couldn't she have drained, say, one-fourth of each of the six SOULS, adding up to a total of 1.5 non-red SOULs worth? Or even half of each, making it the same as 3 non-red SOULs?" ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Because that amount would then be missing from the total needed for the barrier. Unless it somehow regenerates. Nonetheless, even if that was the case, she still used some of it for the amalgamates, so Flowey had even less. And still less than one whole soul, considering that Frisk had more. And again, you're here with the baseless red soul argument. All proof for the statement that it's stronger than 7 non-red human souls combined is fundamentally flawed in one way or another, and I successfully refuted it all. So stop bringing it back up. Unless you want to piss me off. I prove something and you say "no". This is reminding me of something:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpWaVcTdcRU

<p style="font-weight:400;">'' " <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Who thinks more than seven traits COULD exist, as evidence as to why "traits" aren't actually personality  traits<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I don't think they "could" exist. I know they exist. Hundreds of them. But none of them are represented as magic. Since the magic only represents fighting styles, of which there are only 7.

<p style="font-weight:400;">''<span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">" <span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Remember, Sans only spotted ONE anomaly in the timespace continnum-Which is the time period when Flowey, then Frisk, had the ablity to SAVE. Why didn't Sans spot similar anomalies with the other six humans? Why isn't SAVing common knowledge? If there was no minimum requirement, then whenever there wasn't a human, a certain monster would be able to SAVE and LOAD..." ''

<p style="font-weight:400;"><span style="font-weight:400;font-family:"HelveticaNeue",Helvetica,Arial,HiraKakuPro-W3,"HiraginoKakuGothicProW3","HiraginoKakuGothicPro","ヒラギノ角ゴProW3",メイリオ,Meiryo,游ゴシック,YuGothic,"ＭＳＰゴシック","MSPGothic","ＭＳゴシック","MSGothic",sans,sans-serif;font-size:16px;">He did reference one anomaly, but who knows if it was the only one. Not menitoning any others doesn't imply that no others existed. Maybe they weren't so intense as Flowey's shenanigans. In any case, it was recent enough to make him think that it was Frisk, and I don't see why he would feel the need to tell Frisk that this has happened like 6 times already. He only wanted to scold them for doing it (though ofc it was actually Flowey), not to educate them on the history of timekeeping.