Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180705192320

"Listen are you are really dumb??didnt you read what i wrote??I CLEARLY said that the NARRATOR only use red text during the ball game in the pacifist run and in the neutral run"

All that doesn't matter if they use it in the Genocide Run, because it only takes one counterexample to prove a rule wrong.

"and in the genocide run they colour whole sentemces in red not just words which means that there's no reason for them to specifically use red text for "hole"word and not the full line."

It's like with Toriel. In fact, they have no reason to do this to represent the red trait, because before the game begins, they would have no idea how the game works, or anything about its connection to traits.

"Durimg the ball game the the colour used is related to a trait,which means that in red soul case too."

Hence the second red flag.

"Sure characters use red text in the game such as Sans for "LOVE"WORD but they also use yellow text such as for Flowey but in the ball game its specifically related to the traits and the hole is part of the ball game."

Only the flags do this, though. Chara has no reason to do this with a hole, before even knowing what's going on.

"Also theres no reson to believe that the lines are written in the flags because we cant see any writing on it ,and in fact in the game every time something is written on something its indicated."

True, it's indicated the other times, but the sprites were larger as well. Signs have bigger sprites than the small flag sprite. Remember, the player's vision is pixelated:We can't see the small writing.

"Which implies that the narrator is the one who use different colours in the BALL GAME to refers to the traits."

They're probably the one coloring the word "blue" blue, seeing as you can't see blue text on a blue background. But, not the case with the first red flag-This was the flag linking the traits with the flags, to make it abundantly clear that you used ALL SIX TRAITS.

"Which means that determination IS NOT the red trait because in this case the text for the red flag would say "By not giving up and keeping your will to live on you get your victory"instead of that the red use all of the traits."

To be determined, you must be brave, so you don't run away in fear. You need to perservere to the end. You need to be patient, and be willing to wait as long as it takes. You need care and concern for your goal, as without a passion, you cannot have determination. And so on.

"Kindness use care and concern to win at the ball game Bravery use fists to overcome obstacles Patience is wait until they are sure that the ball will enter in the hole Perseverance despite bring trapped take notes and get the ball into the hole Red soul use all the traits to get the soul into the hole So what personality trait Frisk can have if the tactics used are related to the personality trait?"

The red one, obviously.

"I know both of it but what does in THE GAME proove that those two things are related?Nothing?Yeah pretty much"

Logic shows that it would take some time for the power to travel, though. It doesn't move instanteously. Eventually, it would reach the cities, but the game ends before that would happen. We keep the power. What in the game proves that Asriel was brought back as Flowey specifically because of Alphys' determination injections? (Hopefully we at least agree this is what happened). What in the game proves that Chara isn't a megalomaniac who kills just to kill? When the game offers multiple possibilites, we're supposed to choose the more logical option. What makes more sense:Frisk is now the most determined being in the universe, even though now that there's no danger, they have no reason to be, or that the power of S/L/R takes time to move/spread, just like EVERYTHING ELSE DOES?

"Well when they are in the underground they are fused with Chara.And the fact that they boost their determination doesnt mean that their trait is determination."

The latter's true-That's why there's other arguments like there being only ONE anomaly according to Sans, the Asgore argument, and so on. Then again, 600% boost is kind of a stretch.

"the Frisk also is implied to have a strong feeling of hope in their eyes but that doest mean that their trait is hope"

That was never implied in Genocide, though.

"Frisk is implied to always be honnest with themself by Sans ,the mirrors but that doesnt mean that sincerity is their trait."

Once again, not in Genocide. For red to be that trait, Frisk must have it in ALL routes.

"The only reason why they are so determined during Asriel fight is because this time their friends are in danger"

Yes, that caused the DT boost I spoke of.

"About what do you talking about ??Stop to confuse me just to say something against me."

I was using your post's terminology. I guess switching terminologies suddenly like that was confusing. Well, now you know, so look back at the post you linked. "Room 1" here is "Room 1" there.

"Its clearly indicated by Asgore that the white thing is the barrier what is outside is no longer the barrier."

It's visible in Room 1 as well, as we see it shatter in that room.

"And when you leave the purple door in the neutral run ending,you get the surface as proven by the pacifist run"

The door isn't directly to the Surface-We don't see sunlight coming out. We likely had to walk uphill some more, but that was skipped, just like us being moved back to Room 1 from Room 2 was skipped.

"And i disagree with the fact that you cant return to the underground in the neutral run because of the barrier,as everyone can enter."

Yeah, that's what I just pointed out. The post used that as an argument, and you said to look at the post, so.. I looked at the whole thing. Including that one.

"It's seems like you can't return to the other side of the barrier in the neutral run because it's a game mechanism,you can do it in the pacifist run because Toby wanted us to explore the underground"

If that's the case, why does the wall have to be the Barrier at all? Why can't the Barrier still be ahead of us?

"How it's related with my points??Here what Alphys says "I lied to you, to cross the barrier is at least requires a monster and human soul"Note that she says that "it at least"requires a human and monster soul which means there's others possibilities."

Like two human SOULs, but humans can't absorb extra human SOULs.

"Chara's essence is also literally fused with Frisk's soul making them stronger,even Flowey proove it "More powerful than YOU AND your stolen soul".In fact when an essence is bounded with a soul is make this soul stronger"

No, you must be thinking of when two SOULs combine. Two essences combining in one body just means they share the power already in the SOUL. Chara's power came from the stolen SOUL, and Flowey has a plan to raise that power even higher. Likely by killing the monsters, gaining LOVE, and possibly absorbing Asgore's SOUL.

"In Chara's case, they required a red soul (the same one they had)to come back, that's why they only bounded with Frisk not with any other human."

Why would they need a red SOUL? Flowey didn't need a SOUL at all. And, by the way, if red was determination, we could just say the other humans didn't have enough determination.

"Again if Chara didn't have any will to live on they would not use their memories to keep Frisk alive."

They share our will to live. They have determination, but that's OUR determination they have, not their own. It's exactly as the speech said:Their determination was not in fact theirs, but ours.

"Also Asgore says to Chara to stay determined not Frisk.So why would they use the words to keep Frisk alive if they aren't related to Frisk?Why would words addressed to another person keep Frisk Alive?"

Perhaps because even still, they could still remind Frisk of how important determination is.

"Despite this, those memories keep Chara and Frisk alive because Frisk revive right after they get those memories"

According to Flowey's story in Genocide, you get the urge to stay determined just as you're dying. That's also when Asgore told Chara to stay determined. Flowey feared what would happen if he DID die:He'd likely lose his power then. Therefore, there's a short window to "revive":It's no wonder therefore that Frisk revived this quickly after the memory appeared. The window to revive is short anyway.

"WHAT THE HELL???!!Do you ever played this game?!!!Did you ever watch any lets play????"

We don't see Chara. Not being able to be seen us the definition of invisible. Have YOU played the game? Look again, we can't see Chara. Not until after they gain physical form at the end of Genocide.

"No really you should not discuss about the game but go to read comics and aus about Undertale"

The comics show Chara as transparent, not invisible. They show Frisk able to see Chara, and clearly communicate with them, which is NOT how the game works. Invsisible means INVISIBLE.

"Chara is literally in Frisk body ,that why Frisk receive their memories when they sleep,that why Chara says "its me Chara"when you check the mirror in the genocide run,that why you have the battle interface with their name and that why you share the same stats"

That happens because of their connection in essence. As for the "It's me, Chara", that only happens at LV19, when they're already starting to gain some power over Frisk, physically able to possess Frisk-That's where they make their first kill-Sans. Then comes Asgore, then Flowey, and then they gain enough power to become fully physical, now separate from Frisk, acting as their own entity.

"But...it has my point has NOTHING to do with with the who you control or who control you"

As Chasriel demonstrated, if two people share a body, they share control of that body.

"Before i claimimg that the fact Chara revive Frisk and themself proove that that Chara has their own determination,you claimed that Chara revived Frisk to keep themself alive."

Both are true in a way. Chara gave that message to revive Frisk, to keep themself alive.

"I talked about the others fallen childreen not Frisk,who had this power"

The other fallen humans had no real danger until after they left HOME. So, why did they get determined when they fell?

Also, this has to work for Frisk too, so.. What's the deal here?

"If monstres really were that attached to the money then they would not allow Frisk to gain 20 gold every time they get the red flag"

They have no way of knowing Frisk did it. For all the game knows, 100 different monsters played that game. It's common practice in games that hand out winnings, to have a jackpot, that resets when someone wins. It was at 50G, and when Frisk won, it reset to 20. 20 is its base value, it won't go any lower than that. The red flag's the hardest to get, it would make sense that nobody has won in a long time.

"The "try as you might you continue to be yourself "doenst say anything about red trait just that Frisk used the tactics that corresponds to themself twice."

It is the red flag though, and labels itself as such, just like the other flags. Why is this any different than the other colored flags?

"And i dont see why Toby fox would ever replaced the first message with this one,if its not because my point about the personality development is right"

The first message only shows that you need the six other traits to get the red trait. The second explains another property of the trait.

"Yeah but i dont think that Toby Fox didnt read any wikipedia page or something before creating this trait.Also yes any host of integrity trait has an original style but ref soul hosts can have the same style(for example the others red soul hosts can a personality that mix all of the 6 traits)"

So, you claimed the red trait was about making your own trait, when it's clear blue means THE EXACT SAME THING. ..See the problem now?

"The real red trait is the first flag ,the second flag only says that Frik once again used the tactics that corresponds to themself to win."

Labeling itself "RED", like all the other color flags do. Why is it sifferent from those flags?

"The whole ball game associate colours with traits,so "ball game"is associated with Frisk trait,perhaps its written in red because the whole ball game was about Frisk developing their own personality trait"

The monsters didn't know about Frisk when they built the game. We need an in-universe explanation. What's the purpose of the game WITHIN THE WORLD OF UNDERTALE? In my theory, it was likely designed as a personality test:You play based on your personality, and the game gives you a flag based on how you play, telling you wait trait best represents you. Personality quizzes are a thing on the internet, after all.

"I alredy said that during the ball game the whole personality thing was just a game,its wasnt real.That why you doesnt have to play the ball game.The ball game its likely a methaphor of the undertale game itsself"

...We need an in-universe explanation.

"I never saw anyone using pink text in the game though i can be wrong but give me an instance in the game which proove it"

Turn off the yellow names. Then go to turn them back on. You'll get pink names.

"I dont stated it before but i dont think that the physical matter has something to do with the ability to keep determination.After all humans souls have very much determination because they are very powerfull,so powerfull that a single human soul is equal to the souls of all the monsters but human souls arent physical,their bodies are .So i think that the reason why monsters melt with too much determination because their bodies are a fusion beetwen a big ammount of magical matter and a little physical matter,to handdle too much determination without melting they have to have less magical matter and more physical matter"

Yeah, it is the body's physical matter. ...What were you arguing against again?

Oh, you mean it's determined by the ratio of matter to magic? That's a fine possibility, yes.