Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26006155-20190820122909/@comment-32182236-20200107125301

Frisk and Chara were co-existing at that point. Chara was slowing taking Frisk over, controlling more and more of his actions.

Actually, I argue Chara didn't do anything at all to control Frisk until.. the very end of Soulless Pacifist. They started acting while fighting Sans at the very end, but since the final attack was a slash attack, even if Frisk didn't have equipped a weapon that uses that specific attack animation, Chara couldn't have used Frisk's body for that. The same reasoning can be applied to the slash that nearly kills Asgore (Flowey finishes the job), and Flowey-Those were Chara, but not via possessing Frisk.

Some of you might disagree with that. "Are you serious? The character moves on their own! IT HAS TO BE CHARA! Chara skipped Papyrus' puzzles!"

..No they didn't. And Frisk DOES act on their own.

Let's take a look at what happens if you decide to punch the mad dummy,

“You lightly tap the dummy with your fist. You feel bad.”

“You hit the dummy. You feel like you haven’t learned anything.”

“You sock the dummy. Who cares?”

“You punch the dummy at full force. It feels good.”

All of these are references to what Frisk did. But what they do changes depending on your current LV. You don't choose how the dummy is punched, that depends on Frisk's LV. This is telling us that FRISK gets more corrupted as LV increases.

That's what makes Frisk turn into a genocidal maniac. As Sans said, the more LV you gain, the more you distance yourself from others. The easier it is to hurt them, and the harder it is to BE hurt by others.

So no, Chara was not slowly gaining more and more control over Frisk. This is all Frisk's doing, at least during this point in time here in Hotland.

I argue in the script that the player is also represented by Chara. We choose Chara's name, thinking it was our own. And many parts of the game demonstrate that Narrator Chara knows what we know, and can be actively wrong about things like Monster Candy tasting like licorish until we try the candy ourselves and learn it's not licorish-flavored.

If Narrator Chara is connected to us, then of course they know what we know. They also know things we don't know, and talk TO us, so they can't be the player. There's plenty of evidence that Chara very well is connected to Frisk. It's as if Frisk absorbed their essence, and Chara lives on, attached to Frisk.

Do you actually argue that Frisk and Chara are both "remnant" from the same person? (I'm using a FNAF analogy, since it turns out AFH uses the concept I was thinking of-The same essence being in several, separate organisms. Hopefully you understand me now.)

Sans also seems to be talking directly to the player in his epilogues, never actually dropping Frisk's name. Only Asriel says "Frisk" at the end of the True Pacifist run.

Frisk never told ANYONE their name until they told Asriel. Nobody ever asked them what their name is until Asriel did. So Sans never dropped Frisk's name.. Because Frisk never told them their name.

So OF COURSE Sans wouldn't tell Frisk their name. He doesn't KNOW Frisk's name! (Or, if Sans actually is another Frisk after all, he still doesn't want Frisk to know that Sans knows his name, because that might help reveal the truth. I don't think going Genocide will pass Sans' test.)

So if Chara is a reflection of us, light or dark depending on our own actions, and Sans, Mettaton, and who knows how many others are talking to the player with the knowledge that We Are Chara, Mettaton is still saying Alphys has evacuated everyone to a place where we, Chara, won't be able to get to them.

Error:The first premise is false.

Specifically, a factual error. That's what it's formally called. ("False belief" is not the name of a fallacy, I was italicizing it to make it very clear that Alphys may have had a false belief.)

And we never do get to them, do we? We never see Alphys and the others again.

Exactly. We don't. We never get to the True Lab either. Which is the place I argue they're in. Of course we never got to them. That's the point.

Regardless of whether it's exactly the same portal or not, Alphys is still employing the same technology Gaster used when he got shattered. And the Gaster Followers wonder if she'll face the same fate. Clearly the same danger is still there. So if the portal was deactived, Alphys has turned it on again.

But does she even know HOW to yet?

They never specified a point in time where she'd meet the same fate. It might take Alphys just as long as Gaster did to meet the same fate, because she might have to do everything Gaster did, all over again! (Well, with a little help from a few blueprints here and there.)

I think you folks are missing the forest for the trees here.

But if the trees aren't real, then there is no forest. If I chop down the trees because they're actually just wooden poles with fake leaves on them, then I'll soon be revealing that there is no forest.

So if I show how all of your arguments are fallacious, well.. There is no case anymore. No forest. Because there's no trees.

Sans knows Alphys, and would have shared with her the knowledge that The Whole Timeline Is About To End. Researching The Anomaly That Causes This is why Sans is here in the first place, he would have certainly filled Alphys in about the dangers.

Note that these analyses were done long before Frisk even showed up in the first place, being the reason why Sans got lazy in the first place. As a result, it happened before the split between Pacifist and Genocide, meaning that these results happened on the Pacifist Route as well.

Chara doesn't destroy the world on the Pacifist Route, meaning that the point where "everything ends" can't be referring to the Genocide Route. Something else will end things, and it'll end things in ALL timelines.

Both Entry 17's happened at the same point in time on two parallel timelines.

...No they didn't!!

Did you even.. read my analogy? About the TWO books? Where the second book is a sequel to the first book?

The FIRST chapter of the SECOND book happens after the LAST chapter of the FIRST book.

Gaster's entries are Book 1. Alphys' entries are Book 2. And Book 2 starts with Chapter 1 again.

Sans had to know that Alphys was trying to collect the souls of dying monsters in an attempt to do this. And didn't have issues with it. Which means Alphys was using a different, more humane approach than Gaster was at this problem.

Okay. Sans and Gaster made an analysis about the many timelines. They all discovered the anomaly within. Since Gaster was a part of this, the analysis must have happened prior to the fall. Meaning prior to Alphys replacing Gaster. (Which Entry 1 takes place after!)

In that case, it makes sense why he's not studying with Alphys on a way to break the Barrier. He's lost hope. He knows even if they do succeed in breaking the Barrier, they'll just be sent back underground by a RESET or LOAD anyways.

So why WOULD he still be working with Alphys at this point?

The evidence of him working with Alphys has been removed at this point. We really have no reason to even say he's there anymore.