Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31536324-20190117214835/@comment-31536324-20190207215429

"'Would rigidness in style and moral standards sound/work better?''

More adequate synonyms to integrity: wisdom, morality, honor."

Morality and Honor definitely seem to fit Integrity here, but that still doesn't answer my question. Upholding your moral standards, the definition I go by, does fit with sticking to your original style due to everyone having their own moral standards.

"'I always took the traits being applicable to all of the situations you outlined. Hence why it's your trait.''

Broadening the spectrum like this can lead to issues however. You'd be forced to abolish absolute definitions in favor of more vague ones."

Aren't the basic definitions we know and use already abstract?

"When I did that, the only system that ended up fitting the traits was the chakra system, which is as vague as you can ever get."

What Chakra went with what trait? Just so we can have a simple thing to work around.

"'Kindness is one I use the dictionary definition for, if fits, and like I've said, it does give leeway to be used for more...violent pass times. Kindness can be twisted in a sadistic sense.''

In my opinion, it relates to defense. Doesn't matter what kind, just that it protects you. This comfortably explains every instance of green we stumble upon in the game."

Except for the Green Attacks, which are from another person to you, or from you to another person. Kindness definitely seems to be the support party member of the group. Anyone ever noticed that?

Red - Jack of all Trades Orange - Attack Yellow - Accuracy Green - Defense/Support Cyan - Luck, I guess. Blue - Special, I guess. Purple - Endurance, I guess.

"'Isn't Undyne's whole thing doing what she does for the good and betterment of Monsters? Wanting them to be set free because it's what they all want and hope for. Sounds like kindness to me, even if she herself is violent.''

Perspective matters. "For the greater good" isn't usually a kind philosophy. Glitchtale is a good example. Betty is following this philosophy, but you wouldn't describe her as being kind, would you?"

No, but the difference is intent and motivation. Betty is doing what she is "For the Greater Good" because of her hate and fear of Monsters. Undyne is doing so because she wants to help and protect the Monsters from threats, she has care and concern for then, which is what the Green Flag highlights. Hence why I associate Green with Undyne more than Yellow, despite her having Yellow Attacks.

That's what Green does in every instance we see it: help and defend. Care (help) through Green Attacks, and concern (defend) via the SOUL MODE, or more specifically using its shield. The SOUL MODES are tools of the SOUL Traits, not the traits themselves, they're what you use when the respective trait is your trait.

Yes this is a bit from long dead argument about the relationship between the Traits and MODES, but it needed repeating to get my point across here.

Besides, I think we can all agree that Kindness would be the one to SPARE first long before killing someone.

"'Given that the kids are dead, I think it's safe to say that they didn't have REFUSE.''

Or that they had, but the conditions weren't right for them to be able to use it. Maybe hope ties to this. Frisk was hopeful about convincing Asriel to stop fighting (or maybe Chara had something to do with it). The other kids however, not so much."

That could work, but as I said before, Frisk didn't have REFUSE until the Asriel Scenario. So REFUSE can't really be an ability that given from the get go without certain conditions being met, as it's mere inclusion in that scenario implies. You're right in that the kids wouldn't have had the right conditions, but Frisk had REFUSE before the whole SAVE thing came into play, so hope doesn'treally seem to fit here in my perspective.

"'My stance is that while all humans do have DT, enough to get SAVE when in the Underground if the other SOULS are anything to go by, only those with Red SOULS can REFUSE and even then when they reach the threshold to do so. I wouldn't say Bravery, Justice, Kindness, Patience, or Integrity are some things that can spur you to literally refuse death itself. Perseverance is similar, but again, not really something that would spur you to do that in the situation the Frisk was in with Asriel.''

Since determination is a property of all souls, we need not assume that it's because of the trait. In fact, we can discard it completely, it's irrelevant."

All things in the SOUL are properties of it, traits included.

"Unless you believe that determination isn't actually as high for the other human souls. Which I must disagree with, because I believe that determination is soul power, which, once again, isn't something you can really disprove, since we'd be stuck arguing about semantics."

High enough to gain SAVE, but not to gain REFUSE which would require levs only a RSH can attain - i.e not just Frisk, any RSH.

DT can fluctuate, SP should not do so since it's part of a metric - with the given exception of a Human/Monster SOUL that absorbed a Human/Monster SOUL, since the metric only cites a pure human or monster SOUL.

"'It's the only canon fit we have, and aren't you the one that uses the "no contradiction present" thing for his own argument? Isn't that a bit self contradictory?''

When I construct my theories, yes. Anything goes for me. However, you must agree, such theory doesn't have much substance to it. But that applies to yours too. The arguments aren't strong enough to make either one of us able to disprove each other. You're taking the occam's razor here, I'm taking it elsewhere. It's a matter of head canons and interpretation of the unclear parts of the game."

Agreed.

"'I never go with Frisk being a "chosen one", at most it's just a case of them having the right qualities at that time. Chara doesn't latch onto the other six kids after all.''

Giving them extra powers over the other 6 kids feels wrong to me. It goes to imply all sorts of things about their character that really grind my gears. I just like saying that this isn't something that Toby would have resorted to. Even though I know very well that he also didn't resort to chakras. But this is more important."

Not if you apply it to all humans with Red SOULS, and even then, with the Threshold Theory I've been applying.

"'DT is what keeps the SOUL existing, it's strength so to speak (think in terms of how long something last). SP is the actual POWER of the SOUL itself, its...well...power (think in terms of the strength of a weightlifter or boxer when they lift or punch).''

What is SP the sum of then, according to you?"

The SOUL's power, it's accumulative force, what everything in it equals up to.

"'Okay, I'm saying this now, only things that Toby himself has confirmed or stated in official material are to be used here. No trying to think like him, or get into his head, capiche?''

But how do you know what he meant then if you're not allowed to guess?"

I never said you weren't allowed to guess, just that you can't act like you are or know Toby and know what he thinks and state things as if that'sthe case, which is what I have a problem with. Unless it's official material and confirmation from Toby himself, what we have now and our own interpretations of that are strictly what any Toby Arguments are to be founded on.

"'If I were still using that argument, I'd talk about redundancy and how pointless''

Now we're arguing what Flowey would have said and what he wouldn't have. Once again, considering the build up, I would expect him to comment on it, to be shocked, disappointed, whatever. It's weird that he didn't, it almost as if Toby forgot to think this part through."

The difference between those past times and then are that he was trying to mess, poke at, jab, and belittle Frisk for his own amusement those past times. In the Asriel Scenario, he has no reason to do so, he knows Frisk still has control (thus curbing any shock, dissapointment, confusion, or amger), and he even says that he doesn't have control when he says what he's going to do when he regains control.

"We cannot assume that his game is perfect just because he said that everything is canon. That doesn't make the fact that there might be some mistakes hidden in it go away, it just disguises them."

I just explained how the Asriel Fight reset isn't one of them, even if I don't use that argument anymore.

"'Can't it be both then? Both flags imply both views by your train of thought.''

Yes. Think of neutrons. They can be created by either combining a proton and an electron, or by removing a positron from a proton. Essentially, the whole equals nothing, 7 mod 7 is equal to 0."

Okay then.

"'Again, what do you mean by quantifiable?''

Extractable, essentially."

Alright.

"'They don't dictate your personality or quirks. They're decided BY your personality and quirks.''

In that case, we're agreeing on their function. That they're a product, not a cause."

I guess. They exist, they're just determined by you as you act and live.

"'there WERE Human magicians after all, so they are capable of magic; they're just not as versatile as Monsters''

''There's nothing that says that these are the only seven traits, and that there can't be more. These are just the main core seven.''

Both of those are subject to head canons."

Well duh. But the idea that Monsters are more versed in Magic compared to the spell using humans, is more or less a fact. More or less.