Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-32182236-20180104155430/@comment-28974149-20180922022048

TheHumanAmbassador wrote: I don't think eZephyr5d was talking about you. The Chara Protection Squad is a real thing, and they were talking about that, not you.

Anyways, I figured I might the part of what I said that you didn't get to yet, so that maybe it's at least a little easier to respond to-I'll just take all the new info I was trying to give you, and take away bits that I just repeated later on.

Here's the first half of what you missed, but shortened a bit by removing redudancy.

Yes, LV makes you more agressive over time:That's why the narration text when we hit the Mad Dummy shows our punch as more aggressive depending on our LV, and how we feel about it as well.

No, saying that our guidance was what lead them to realize their purpose is in fact the misunderstanding of Chara's quote.

"At first, I was so confused. Our plan had failed, hadn't it? Why was I brought back to life? ... You. With your guidance. I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power."

Chara's telling a story. First they ask a question, then they answered that question. You. You're the one who brought them back. Also, note the period there. It's not a comma, it's a period. Either way, they're not supposed to leave you at a cliffhanger like that. They asked the question they ask, then explained how they found out their answer. Why were they brought back? You!

It doesn't logically make sense for it to mean your guidance lead to them realizing their purpose either-Why did Chara say "you" in the first place? If "why" meant "for what purpose", then "you" isn't really a good answer. If they were telling the story of how they found out, they should have cut out "you", to make the story flow better. That way, the story goes:They were confused, but then with your guidance, they realized the purpose of their reincarnation. But no, they added in that "You" there, which can only make sense as an answer to their question from earlier. They came back to life because of YOU. With YOUR guidance. (At the very start)

Chara DOES think their pupose is power, and thus, they DO devise a plan to gain power. We just didn't teach them this.

"But if you say no they're confused(and betrayed)."

Chara, I wanted to kill the monsters, not the humans. Now nobody can wipe out humanity anymore. (hypothetical response)

"Eventually Chara just says fuck it, it's MY save file(since when were YOU the one in control?!) "CHARA(or whatever name you gave them)" and just kicks you by erasing it."

"Let us destroy this pointless world, and move onto the next"-Chara

That's their supposed reason. Because SURE, it IS pointless at this point anyway, all that's left are humans.. Let's just completely forget about Alphys, Grillby, Catty and Bratty, Nice Cream Guy, Gerson, etc, they're all worthless. (..Yeah, things aren't looking too well for Chara over here.)

"And then when you come back to the world YOU destroyed, procedees to kinkshame you about your killing in the void."

Chara, I wanted to move onto the next world with you! You made a deal-We destroy the world, we move onto the next one! Chara, just take me there with you already! Destroying just one world isn't good enough for me. *evil laugh* As for the comment on sadistically recreating the world and destroying it over and over:

Chara, I'm waiting for you to do as you said you would do the FIRST time I destroyed the world. How many times will it take before you take me to the next world with you?

"And still kinkshaming you, they'll undo your happy ending from now on because you don't get one you monster."

Oh look, they're killing all of my friends! Look, I reformed, I changed for once, I actually did the right thing, you even SAID to take another path, and now you just kill everyone. Do you want me to be a pacifist or not, Chara? Because if everyone dies anyway, what's the point anymore? Seriously, if I can't kill, why are YOU killing, you hypocrite? #DoubleStandards Clearly, this was a scam. There's no real comprosmise, everyone still dies. Why do you have to tear away pur ending, Chara, after we worked so hard?

"Just let them go. Let Frisk be happy."-Flowey

Chara, please.

Chara:NOPE! *kills everyone*

"YOU MADE YOUR CHOICE LONG AGO"-Chara

Well sorry Chara, if you're not going to take me to the next world, I'm not going to destroy this one anymore. We either go with our plan of destroying the multiverse or we don't. If you're not with me, then you are my enemy, Chara. Which is it? Are you going to help me destroy the worlds or not? (Yes, I'm acting like a Sith here, dealing in absolutes. We already established that the player is the villain now, of course I'll play that role when talking to Chara.)

"The Demon who comes when you call their name" is only a reference to the fact that you called their name, and you named the fallen human, rather than your own character, Frisk. Yes, it's Frisk, not Chara.

"It is you who made Chara a demon."

They were like that ever since they awoke SOULless. But hey, nobody said there can't be two of them, right? =]

"This was the RPG where no one had to die! But you decided to play it like normal!"

Hey, there's a war going on between the humans and the monsters, all who came never returned, so that means the monsters are the enemy, and I, as the Hero of the humans, must eradicate all of the monsters, to forever save humanity! I killed the ENEMY! The VILLAIN! You even said it yourself:Together, we eradicated the ENEMY!! I'm the HERO!

(Typical RPG mindset... Yes, that mindset is totally wrong. But one again, I'm playing the Genocide role.)

Megalo Strike Back doesn't exist in Undertale. Just become some fans use that song for Chara does not make that related to Chara. Chara's theme is Once Upon a Time. So your allegory to that song is baseless.

"You think you are above concequences."

I am, though. I have the power of SAVE, Chara! Did you forget? Here, I'll bring things back right now! Just press the- ...Wait, why isn't it working? Chara, what did you do?! (Frisk's probably getting a little worried right now..)

I'm not the only villain in the game..

Me and Chara:"Muahahahaha!!"

Also, pretty sure you qualify as a villain well, Frisk of another world. ...Unless you never did that run, in which case, your "friend" Asriel doesn't approve of you.

"At least we're better than those sickos that stand around and WATCH it happen... Those pathetic people that want to see it, but are too weak to do it themselves."-Flowey

Is he really your friend? =]

"We blame Chara."

Yep, the evilest character besides ourselves. Makes sense to use them as the scapegoat.

In your backstory, why would Chara specifically be the one being controlled and manipulated by humans? "Anyways, I figured I might the part of what I said that you didn't get to yet, so that maybe it's at least a little easier to respond to-I'll just take all the new info I was trying to give you, and take away bits that I just repeated later on."

Oh. Thank you, how nice of you! You didn't have to, but thanks!

​​​​​"Yes, LV makes you more agressive over time:That's why the narration text when we hit the Mad Dummy shows our punch as more aggressive depending on our LV, and how we feel about it as well."

Yep.

"No, saying that our guidance was what lead them to realize their purpose is in fact the misunderstanding of Chara's quote."

Not is is not. They LITERALLY said that. That is the actual line word for word.

"Chara's telling a story. First they ask a question, then they answered that question. You. You're the one who brought them back. Also, note the period there. It's not a comma, it's a period. Either way, they're not supposed to leave you at a cliffhanger like that. They asked the question they ask, then explained how they found out their answer. Why were they brought back? You!"

No. They ask a rhetorical quesiton that Frisk could not have answered anyways, there is no way they would have known. Chara is recounting what they were thinking in the beginning. Then they change the subject to our guidance. (And even if you take that you, as being the answer, it's still true, since it was Frisk's determination that work up their essense Flowey style. So it doesn't matter.   After that they change the topic to talk about our guidance.   Because guidance cannot bring someone back bro, you can't guide a corpse and expect it to come back to life... And these choices of genocide happened outside of the radius of Chara's corpse, they would have to have been brought back at the first moment of the game.

The periods(or some kind of ending punctuation) are in every line, it's  how they talk, they seem to be talking with lots of space in between, which we see in the game as we get one line of dialogue at a time. Chara isn't talking in paragraphs of words just sentance by sentance.

"It doesn't logically make sense for it to mean your guidance lead to them realizing their purpose either-Why did Chara say "you" in the first place? If "why" meant "for what purpose", then "you" isn't really a good answer. If they were telling the story of how they found out, they should have cut out "you", to make the story flow better. That way, the story goes:They were confused, but then with your guidance, they realized the purpose of their reincarnation. But no, they added in that "You" there, which can only make sense as an answer to their question from earlier. They came back to life because of YOU. With YOUR guidance. (At the very start)"

Yes it does. You, your experiences taught them the purpose of their re-encarnation. If you choose genocide the purpose is power that it is ALWAYS kill or be killed and the mission is more important, if you choose pacifist the purpose is mercy, that Asriel was right.

The way I see it is structured like this, Chara makes a statement that your power, your determination revived them, they were confused as to why they we were revived, the answer was you. Then they move on to talk about how your Guidance showed them the way of the world.

A You. ending that topic, then new topic sentence. "With your guidance."

They did not come to life because of our guidance, like Flowey they came back to life due to the presense of Determination. Again, it's Flowey, but with a corpse instead of a Flower.

"Chara DOES think their pupose is power, and thus, they DO devise a plan to gain power. We just didn't teach them this."

No, their plan to gain power is made after all this, it's the plan to erase "this world" and move on to the next "world"  (the next video game, of course! Killing enemies and all. ) They followed YOU throughout the game, they had no plan of their own. They let you do your own thing and abort genocide runs just fine.

"Chara, I wanted to kill the monsters, not the humans. Now nobody can wipe out humanity anymore. (hypothetical response)"

Chara has no plans to kill Humanity after all this. (Especially since erasing the SAVE file kills everything) they are focused on the "next world". This whole "kill humanity" thing is your fanon bro. There is no hint of it in the game.

See what's going on here is that, Chara, holds the SAVE file, they could always do something like erasing the world, normally they would never,  but now that Chara has gathered the LOVE, the mental stregth to kill without guilt, and now that Asriel is dead. "There's nothing left for us here."

That is, there is nothing tethering Chara to this world, their family is dead, the only race that accepted them is dead, their best friend is dead, so to hell with the world! And now that they've learned this is the meaning of life, thanks to you, they're content with spending eternity destroying Universes.

And of course you have nothing left to kill(and no, humans don't count regardless, remember, LOVE kills monsters because their bodies, due to being in tune with the SOUL are weak to emotions like hate, this shit wouldn't effect a human that has a physical body they would be a baby with a gardening tool again.), and since Chara (at this moment) thinks us two are besties, hence the "us".

"That's their supposed reason. Because SURE, it IS pointless at this point anyway, all that's left are humans.. Let's just completely forget about Alphys, Grillby, Catty and Bratty, Nice Cream Guy, Gerson, etc, they're all worthless. (..Yeah, things aren't looking too well for Chara over here.)"

I'd imagine it wouldn't only be boring and too easy to kill them, but also impossible due to game mechanics and such and Chara knows this (the knowledge that keeps Gerson alive, we can't attack shopkeepers.) besides they have all the LOVE they need to destroy the world with no guilt so we don't need any more kills.

"Chara, I wanted to move onto the next world with you! You made a deal-We destroy the world, we move onto the next one! Chara, just take me there with you already! Destroying just one world isn't good enough for me. *evil laugh* As for the comment on sadistically recreating the world and destroying it over and over:"

No, by coming back to this world (this game) you show Chara you did this just for fun and want your toy Universe back not for the purpose of getting stronger. And Chara comes to that conclusion, and, just like on the "No" path, feels betrayed and that you think you are above concequences and proceeds to kinkshame you.

If you deny this accusation, they ask "..Then what are you looking for?" after all, this world was destroyed. What ARE you looking for?

"Chara, I'm waiting for you to do as you said you would do the FIRST time I destroyed the world. How many times will it take before you take me to the next world with you?"

Genocide Chara explains especially in the second genocide dialogue, that they are with you in any game with in the form of rising stats. (As this is the metaphor Toby is going for.)  YOU lead them to the next world.

"Oh look, they're killing all of my friends! Look, I reformed, I changed for once, I actually did the right thing, you even SAID to take another path, and now you just kill everyone. Do you want me to be a pacifist or not, Chara? Because if everyone dies anyway, what's the point anymore? Seriously, if I can't kill, why are YOU killing, you hypocrite? #DoubleStandards Clearly, this was a scam. There's no real comprosmise, everyone still dies. Why do you have to tear away pur ending, Chara, after we worked so hard?"

No, this is the compromise, a compromise is an agreement that makes both people happy. I may have believed this earlier, my mistake, but Chara didn't want your SOUL to have a soul again(doesn't make sense, it wouldn't work anywyas as we see with omega Flowey and Asriel without being SAVED, being in possesion of SOUL while being SOUL-less doesn't give you one.), I now realize, Chara wanted your SOUL specifically for this purpose.

The compromise was. You get your toy Universe to screw with, but you don't get your happy ending. Chara from genocide timeline can take your body and take it away. Because you are not above concequences. You don't get to play with their lives and also be friends with them. (Poor Sans, imagine the existential crisis....now I know how he feels..)

You can't just do what you want and get away with it. Of course again, if you're a dirty hacker then it's really sad for this final judgement. In the end you win, don't ya!

(I already delt with those below.)

"They were like that ever since they awoke SOULless. But hey, nobody said there can't be two of them, right? =]"

No, again, being SOULless doesn't make you evil at all, just incapable of feeling love. Chara was neutral with 1 LV  at first, it is our choices that shape their future.

"Hey, there's a war going on between the humans and the monsters, all who came never returned, so that means the monsters are the enemy, and I, as the Hero of the humans, must eradicate all of the monsters, to forever save humanity! I killed the ENEMY! The VILLAIN! You even said it yourself:Together, we eradicated the ENEMY!! I'm the HERO!

(Typical RPG mindset... Yes, that mindset is totally wrong. But one again, I'm playing the Genocide role.)"

Well, yes. (Though at this point it's likely, to the humans, the whole Monster things was probably scoffed off and all that remains is the fact no one who goes in comes back.)  But pacifist Frisk was the kind of person to find another way!

Chara saw monsters as the enemy to their mission, they were resisting our attempts to gain power by fighting back. Though they could also be looking through Frisk's perspective(as they do in those analysis of Frisk's feelings), the Monsters were trying to attack them. Chara does refer to Monsters as "Enemy" even in pacifist (though I think it stops, likely as Frisk's mind changes in pacifist) while trying convince you not to kill them. "Life's hard for this enemy" aww, poor thing.

"Megalo Strike Back doesn't exist in Undertale. Just become some fans use that song for Chara does not make that related to Chara. Chara's theme is Once Upon a Time. So your allegory to that song is baseless."

I knew that, lol! I was just taking a gamble, most of the fandom has adopted it. Hey! We agree on that!

"I am, though. I have the power of SAVE, Chara! Did you forget? Here, I'll bring things back right now! Just press the- ...Wait, why isn't it working? Chara, what did you do?! (Frisk's probably getting a little worried right now..)"

It was always Chara, they were always the one to tell you that the File was saved, if anything you just asked them to save for you (It's kinda like Undertale YELLOW and Flowey, if you played that fan game.), and Chara shows you how little control you have when they erase the file and refuse to give it back until you make a deal. "Then stay here for all Eternity". *void*

But yeah, lol. Frisk probably is. Chara: "SINCE WHEN WERE *YOU* THE ONE IN CONTROL?!" * *takes save file and stabs it, shatters SAVE file*  Frisk: O shi- *void*

"Yep, the evilest character besides ourselves. Makes sense to use them as the scapegoat.

In your backstory, why would Chara specifically be the one being controlled and manipulated by humans?"

Nope, just you buddy, Chara is your protegé!

Because metaphor. And that would probably true of all the Humans in my theoretical backstory. They all "fell" quote end quote, for the same reason and could SAVE and LOAD like a video game character.

Yep.