Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31371445-20170222233857/@comment-32182236-20180719021259

Tsskyx wrote: "The same can be said about bullet pattern birthday cards. They are bullets. Bullets are supposed to deal damage. But not in this context."

Correct-Because THOSE bullets are meant to be within the card:Not get shot right at the monsters' SOUL. Seriously, this is basic stuff.

"Because the recipient is a monster, not a human. In short, I believe this is how they communicate with one another. Then, you join them and you're suddenly a part of the conversation."

Yes, that makes sense. But the attacks wouldn't be aimed right at the SOUL. And play the game some more-Notice how the monsters aim at your SOUL on purpose.

"Besides, tell me, if Toby wanted this game to work in a way so that you would realize that fighting is not necessary, why would what you're saying be the case with the monsters? It makes no sense to me."

"There are many Floweys out there. And not everything can be resolved by just being nice."-Asriel

You sure about that, Tsskyx? I told you, stop trying to assume things about Toby then use that as an argument.

"Makes sense to me. If monsters are ought to get a human, it is obvious that some MAY attack you. But it's not implied that all do, is it not?"

Two things. First, the fact that they may attack already implies that the general population would know what a human looks like. Second, perhaps I should have bolded the second sentence. "When this happens, you will enter a FIGHT". By definition, a FIGHT happens when a monster attacks. (Not necessarilly first, and perhaps as a means of defense, like in Napstablook's case-WE tried to move them by force.) Therefore, we can conclude that in every FIGHT, they DID try to kill you, and know you're a human. As for not everyone trying to kill you? Thanks for answering your question later on about why monsters aren't trying to get you killed, and instead would just chat with a human.

"Why isn't hiding and or running away an even better idea? Especially in the genocide route."

That's exactly what they DO in the genocide route. I don't see the issue.

"Why are there still monsters around?"

What, the ones who want to kill you, now actually having a real, justified reason to, where I'm actually rooting for the monsters in that time?

"And I'm positive it wasn't a fake act. That's not how Toby planned it. Never assume a conspiracy."

Yeah, I've changed my stance. You gave me an easier answer while trying to make a rebuttal to one of my other points.

"Everyone out of those present in the room. But his words still make no sense anyways."

First, HER words. That was Undyne speaking.

"Alphys didn't want to kill you. She merely set up a play where she would always save you from any troubles. And as you said, the NPCs didn't try to kill you."

My point was that the monster attacks were trying to kill you. Yes, Undyne likely was exaggerating when she said literally EVERYONE..

"Well, duh. He can't leave his shop. That's the thing."

...Um, yeah he can. He was around during the war, and is implied to go to the Surface with everyone else in the ending. He just chooses not to, because, as he says, you can't attack him there.

"Figure of speech. Also, didn't she say that in the genocide route? I don't recall."

Yes, that was Genocide. And the figure of speech was her feeling everyone. It represents that she knows that the monsters all want to defeat YOU. Since, well, you've been killing everyone.

"Same thing to me."

One implies consiousness can't exist, the other leaves it as a possibility. In a simulated world, the most you can have is a p-zombie.

"The game explicitly shows us that Frisk stops on precisely defined boundaries whereever they go. Seems HUD-like to me."

Once you leave what the game explicilty says happens, you've crossed a new line. Besides, why do the bridges have railings if this is true? The HUD'll stop anyone from having casulities anyway! If that only applies to humans, just make a very slighy chasm as your puzzle gate. That way, no human can cross, because of the boundaries!

Seriously, Gaster. That's a far more secure way to prevent human access than your complicated maze. You and Sans already know about the HUD.

"Exactly. Ever noticed how specifically programmed the HUD is? How can it be a law, if souls didn't always exist?"

Um, it's NOT. I already TOLD you that's not how it works. All it does is send everyone back in time. The deja-vu moments is a direct result of that.

"Unless, the entirety of existence was created all at once, along with the souls and the HUD already in place. Or maybe because the HUD evolved (or was created) only much later than that."

Or, that's not how it works at all, because there's no mind control involved!

"Sustain and replicate. Once that's in place, natural selection takes care of the rest."

I meant both abiogensis, alonside humans being naturally chosen, despite naturally being weaker than many other species. In the Early Stone Age, intellegence really didn't help much. Homo Habilis was quite lucky indeed. Also, do note my analogy was talking about it taking a whole picosecond for the laws of physics to be finalised. I meant in that same kind of manner. Where the laws themselves evolve, just like they did in the very early dtages of the universe.

"Life is the universe's best attempt at preserving entropy in a low-entropy system. What is the HUD good for? Why would creatures with souls need it?"

By giving humans an immense advantage, making their attacks invisible to monsters, allowing them to pretty much one-shot nearly every monster in the war, without a single human getting killed?

"Were we the witnesses of HUD evolution when Frisk broke the meta by sliding the bounding box over to the fight button? No for real, why would a completely simultaneous universe ever develop or needed to develop such a thing?"

Simultaneity still exists. Remember, the button causes the attack. If you can't oress the button, you can't activite the button's attack. If I make a barrier around you, with your keyboard on the other side, you won't be able to type any more messages, even though we'll both experience time the same as ever. Same idea.

"Which is why I don't believe that the HUD is canonically real. Because such idea IS ridiculous."

Not when you take into consideriation that hey, maybe the monsters don't have a reason to be suprised, and they're familiar with it just like we're familiar with natural events!

"Sure, but a simulteneity halt specific for souls is on a whole new scale."

There's no simulteneity halt. You just can't reach the button. Is that really that hard to grasp? And perhaps a barrier prevents monster attacks, but is broken by one of YOUR attacks, allowing the monster to attack. There's different ways to explain this without having to resort to things this bizzare,

"It is so artificially-looking, I am already convinced it didn't evolve naturally. Do we agree on that?"

Meaning it was a part of the universe from the start. Just like all these artificial-looking laws in our world.

"Which proves to be extra difficult once the game tells us we weren't [name] at all."

Hey, [name] was with us the whole time. Sharing our essence. And they've been shown to have some influence at times. So while we aren't technically Chara, we can't just say Chara's completely separate from us either.. At least, not in the present.

"I mean, I can see he could have learned it only after we left the underground. He doesn't seem aware even at the end, in the first area of the game as Asriel. So maybe something happened since that time and he somehow magically learned it (e.g. Toby cheated), or maybe that scene played out in one of those Floweypot scenarios where he gets to live with Frisk (so he would have a chance to eventually realize this up close), or none of that and it was just a message to the player."

Or, it actually takes time to reach these conclusions. At first, Asriel id in a great emotional state, and likely couldnmt think rationally about the situation. Perhaps later on, he noted that even after he found out you weren't Chara, he felt Chara, then used the line of reasoning I pointed to.

"Aye. But a similar void is present just before we enter and leave the ruins. It could just be some dark spot in the caverns that he moved us to, so that he would have more space for himself."

Yeah, that too. Nice.

"No, but it is far-fetched that he would kill 6 humans and then proceeded to absorb all of monsterkind once again."

This was before he turned back into Flowey in the later scene. Nobody said it was instantaneous.

"Plus, that doesn't even explain the HP we get in that fight."

We always get HP.

"First, wouldn't that imply that Flowey's speech, which came after that, wasn't "real" either"

No reference to the credits in here

"and second, does that mean you're giving this one to me? Because this is what I've been claiming for months now."

Do note this was an alternate take. Not my primary one.

"Well, take the soul attacks. Each time the ACT button appears, no attack is overlapping it. It appears in a window."

Yes. You said attacks, so I'm going off of FIGHT.

"Then we agree that the HUD is exclusive to humans, ergo, we spiral back towards my original statement, which got derailed by MysteriousMalice, who said that monsters have it too."

They're both true in a way. Humans can use and see the HUD, but monsters are still affected, and can see some of its effects. Ergo, seeing the human SOUL in a box.

"Respond to it again in that case. Humans being the only ones with this attack implies the monsters were mind controlled into not noticing it, since they couldn't have ALL been familiar with it."

It'd be a common thing taught when fighting humans, especially since this is also their ONLY attack.

"We can see it probably for the same reason why Flowey remembers exactly what we did in a previous timeline."

Similar, not the same. But apply that statement, and switch everything about S/L/R with the HUD, and you have a great approximation.

"The law that the box is stationary was broken."

Lemon Bread broke that "law" too. We also did that in Papyrus' fight.

"Either breaks the canon. I see no difference."

No, the former doesn't contradict a thing, and thus isn't be breaking canon. The latter MUST be, though.

"And I never said that these monsters don't know you're a human."

Which confirms not everyone wants to kill you, AND implies you wanted to feel bad for Asriel.

"Although... that last Froggit at the end seemed rather confused on what does "free" mean in a given context."

Free can mean death too, you know.

"You compared the HUD to life. I have now stated what life is, and implied the HUD is not like life."

I compared it to a branch of physical science, and said this deep into tye HUD is a mystery that we can't solve, just like before the Big Bang.