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  • Hello folks, I've been talking Undertale on the FNAF wiki, and thought I should move some of it to a more on-theme place :)

    First, Asriel's monster SOUL may have dissipated when he died and returned as Flowey, but he's going to get it back over time.

    In the True Pacifist Epilogue, if you stop by Gerson the Turtle on the way back to the beginning, and ask him "Is Asgore a Goat?" he'll tell you how Boss Monsters work. The parents gradually transfer their own SOUL energy into their children as they age, and the children get stronger. Toriel and Asgore haven't been aging for ages because they didn't technically have a Boss Monster child, and Flowey didn't count. However, once Asriel regained his Boss Monster form, he does qualify now, and in the sequel we're going to see Toriel and Asgore slowly aging as Asriel regains his monster SOUL.

    Second, Asriel only changes back to Flowey when you restart the game, because despite even what Asriel himself believes, he already has a SOUL. And not only that, it's a human SOUL!

    Remember how human SOULs can presist after death, while those of monsters quickly vanish? In their doomed adventure back to the surface, Asriel absorbed Chara's human SOUL, and proved that even though human souls were stronger than monster's souls, he was able to win the struggle for control with Chara when she wanted to destroy the human village, and retreated back behind the barrier to the garden, where he died.

    If Flowey was truly souless, he wouldn't have any emotions at all. Yet we see him happy, sad, frustrated, surprised, devious, angry, and even terrified during the various playthroughs of the game. Also, both Flowey and Asriel both tell you they were missing one specific thing: Compassion. Not even Toriel and Asgore could make Flowey feel loved, because the SOUL he possessed had no Compassion in it.

    And Compassion is how Frisk defeats Asriel, The Absolute God of Hyperdeath. After SAVEing his six friends, Frisk detects another SOUL deep within Asriel, and reaches out to SAVE it, calling out a name. Asriel immedately reacts with surprise "What are you DOING?!", fear and confusion and anger meeting the growing feeling of Compassion being restored within him "NO! I Don't need ANYONE!" Yet his resolve wavers as he starts to remember love, and family, and his attacks weaken, until, after one last desperate attempt to destroy Frisk, Asriel is overcome by the realization of how horrible he's been acting, and finally gives up fighting, determined to do the right thing.

    The seventh name Frisk calls out during the fight is CHARA. She takes far longer to save than any of the others, but eventually, even she can be saved.

    After breaking the Barrier and releasing all of the souls he captured as Flowey, Asriel, still in Boss Monster form, believes he's doomed to change back into a flower, and begs Frisk not to tell his parents or the others that he's alive, not wanting them to go through the pain of losing him again.

    Asriel is thinking of the wellbeing of his family. This shows Compassion :) Even though he still doesn't know it, Asriel still has Chara's healed soul, which now, finally, has Compassion inside it.

    So not only is Asriel getting back his own monster soul, he has Chara's soul with him already, truly best friends again, for the first time.

    Asriel isn't going to fade, he's definitely going to be in Undertale 2, and he's going to be Badass :)

    Thanks for reading!

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    • Hey, hows it going

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    • I agree that Flowey has a soul even after the pacifist ending but won't retain his form as Asriel due to needing a human and another monster soul at the bare minimum.

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    • Except Flowey has basic feelings, even when he is soulless. He can get bored, annoyed, worried, terrified, sort of satisfied, has basic survival instinct (it shouldn't even be surprising knowing what determination is), and so on. He just lost the ability for more complex feelings. Like, to feel satisfied for something that has no intrinsic reward. He enjoys having power - he doesn't understand compassion or generosity. He will play with you, kill you, take away what he can - he won't care (or will aim for) inflicting pain or causing fear, and won't make sacrifices on anyone's behalf. He is morally and ethically corruptable, since morals and ethics have no intrinsic rewards.

      Actually, even plants can supposedly feel, up to an uncertain variety and complexity, but including fear, and that alone presumably doesn't cause them to have a soul. Flowey is basically a plant that gained sentience, determination, and some kind of ability to move around and weaponize his pellets.

      Flowey even confirms that he is empty inside, and that he lost the ability to have the feelings that, as Asriel, were satisfying and therefore important to him (but that doesn't mean he lost all feelings in all forms in a world where even rocks have some). Considering that Asriel started out helping everyone after turning into Flowey, but decided on killing for fun, because it was more satisfying, what he says practically immediately after turning Flowey again doesn't prove he has a soul.

      By the way, since he came back as a flower and not his goat self, his body had to turn into "essence", or monster dust if you don't fancy the posh word. Correct me if I'm wrong, but dust is normally teeny-weeny little specks, of which you would need like at least thousands to hold what the size of a soul is depicted (and souls broken into pieces don't seem to work too well). And shouldn't Flowey be like, already the most determined after having a combined human-monster soul with extra determination infused? What is Frisk then, some incarnation of pure determination? Did they eat the stuff for breakfast their whole life? Or did the Asriel-Chara combined soul just linger around without a body, unnoticed by the monsters, who have six tubes with visible souls in them, which they even passed over to their scientist to do research, and can measure the power and intentions of a soul? And then simply decide to go and save Asriel from turning into a flower, just because it sucks and, apparently, you like him? Wait, if that's the case, what Flowey does there on screen after restarting the game? Help, a boss monster with an absorbed human soul he pulled out of a magic hat is badly cloning himself!

      So, since I consider the soulless = no feelings approach false, I don't find the supposed evidence convincing.

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    • I don't find Flowey to be Soulless ever. He even tells you what the soul is and complex or not feelings are still feelings. The only reason he couldn't feel compassion is due to Chara's influence (Asriel has absorbed Chara's soul prior to the incident that cost him his life).

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    • So, plants have a soul?

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    • Or an even better question: do you think that Chara, right before they go on to erase the world, is soulless, or they aren't?

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    • Isthereaplace wrote: So, plants have a soul?

      No, Monsters who have been revived in a flower have a soul.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote: Or an even better question: do you think that Chara, right before they go on to erase the world, is soulless, or they aren't?

      They are soulless in that they lack compassion but as the soul as summarised by Flowey is the essence of YOU I'd be pretty stupid to say he was actually soulless.

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    • Plants can, according to multiple scientific research, feel.

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    • Doctor Alphys injected tons of golden flowers with determination, and the most they did was have clingier seeds and sprout in inhospitable places. Only Flowey achieved self-awareness, and since Alphys' goal of extracting souls from the Fallen Down monsters never panned out, any soul Flowey might have, had to have been with him originally.

      My take on Chara is that she has the Player's soul. At the very beginning we put our own name in as the Fallen Human, believing that this is the Character we will be playing as, and the more our actions mirror what Chara would actually do, the more influence she has over us. On a genocide run Flowey says "You and your stolen soul" after you kill Toriel. Chara makes more and more independent decisions throughout the game, until finally taking over completely at the end of the Sans fight. Then to restore the world, you have to give Chara your soul, which by this time, is something she really has already.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Doctor Alphys injected tons of golden flowers with determination, and the most they did was have clingier seeds and sprout in inhospitable places. Only Flowey achieved self-awareness, and since Alphys' goal of extracting souls from the Fallen Down monsters never panned out, any soul Flowey might have, had to have been with him originally.

      My take on Chara is that she has the Player's soul. At the very beginning we put our own name in as the Fallen Human, believing that this is the Character we will be playing as, and the more our actions mirror what Chara would actually do, the more influence she has over us. On a genocide run Flowey says "You and your stolen soul" after you kill Toriel. Chara makes more and more independent decisions throughout the game, until finally taking over completely at the end of the Sans fight. Then to restore the world, you have to give Chara your soul, which by this time, is something she really has already.

      actually she only injected one

      "I've chosen a candidate. I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it... In the center of his garden, there's something special. The first golden flower, that grew before all the others. The flower from the outside world. It appeared just before the queen left."

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    • In Snowdins Library there's a bit about the essence of a Monster clinging to whatever it's ashes were scattered on. So Asriel soul was already clinging to those sunflowers he died on and with the help of determination he (and of course by association Chara) was resurrected.

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    • I don't even know if you want to convince me at all, or are just arguing because it is more polite than outright declaring your idea the unquestionable truth.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote: I don't even know if you want to convince me at all, or are just arguing because it is more polite than outright declaring your idea the unquestionable truth.

      I don't like to come off as forceful I'm just here to share.

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    • Right now all I get is that in order to make sure Asriel returns, there must be multiple levels of soullessness, and Chara must be bad. Or something like that.

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    • From Blackfoot maybe. I'm simply stating that Flowey/Asriel still has his soul but due to having Chara's soul as well can't feel compassion. After Frisk falls, Chara moves to the more compatible host stripping Flowey of his reset power and blind malice which begins to dissolve throughout the game until he breaks down in the Pacifist ending.

      The reason Asriel keeps making Flowey out to be nothing more than a soulless thing that'll take his place is sheer shame in knowing there is only one culprit for Flowey's atrocities; HIM.

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    • And the problem is, that no one seems forceful here, otherwise I would know if you aren't trying ro be polite. On the other hand, I also don't know if anyone wants to be convincing either.

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    • I'd like to think I'm firm here and not leaving it too open ended but alas take it or leave it, Flowey has a soul where I'm concerned.

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    • Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

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    • Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.

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    • Yes it influenced him the way the 6 human souls never did, because he only had human souls in him at that point. When you have humans and monsters it is bound to be different.

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    • Jillianbrodsky wrote: Yes it influenced him the way the 6 human souls never did, because he only had human souls in him at that point. When you have humans and monsters it is bound to be different.

      Exactly, so you can't go comparing it to humans trying to absorb human souls and monsters absorbing monster souls.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Yes it influenced him the way the 6 human souls never did, because he only had human souls in him at that point. When you have humans and monsters it is bound to be different.

      Exactly, so you can't go comparing it to humans trying to absorb human souls and monsters absorbing monster souls.

      No, you are saying that Flowey has a monster soul originally, which would make him a monster. He is not a monster since he can absorb monster souls.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.

      I hope you know that the narrator Chara theory includes that Chara and Flowey are soulless, and that is why:

      - they are so much unlike in real life

      - Flowey-Asriel recognizes Frisk as Chara through their shared emptiness (despite none of them are their former self)

      - and are morally corruptable.

      Also, it assumes that since their souls were combined, both would have the same fate. So, either both of them has a soul, and Asriel's "don't kill, no matter what" philosophy somehow turned into "kill or be killed", or none of them has, but I still got an answer that Chara has. Well, at least before going on to destroy the world if you ever take that direction, but then again, I haven't seen them pick one up on the way, they still need one in the void, and if we assume being soulless as having no feelings at all and taking a soul as the one giving it becoming soulless, then it is not the player's. Because completely without feelings players wouldn't try to scapegoat and demonize Chara.

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    • We never saw the end of the human souls after true pacifist.Couldnt he have taken them and kept it with him?

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    • He could, but as far as I understand, the theory is about that he has his own soul back, I think with Chara's absorbed soul inside.

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    • Jillianbrodsky wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Yes it influenced him the way the 6 human souls never did, because he only had human souls in him at that point. When you have humans and monsters it is bound to be different.

      Exactly, so you can't go comparing it to humans trying to absorb human souls and monsters absorbing monster souls.

      No, you are saying that Flowey has a monster soul originally, which would make him a monster. He is not a monster since he can absorb monster souls.

      The game say's nothing about a monster who already has human souls being unable to absorb monster ones. Flowey is already capable of going Omega Flowey even before he absorbs the monsters.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.

      I hope you know that the narrator Chara theory includes that Chara and Flowey are soulless, and that is why:

      - they are so much unlike in real life

      - Flowey-Asriel recognizes Frisk as Chara through their shared emptiness (despite none of them are their former self)

      - and are morally corruptable.

      Also, it assumes that since their souls were combined, both would have the same fate. So, either both of them has a soul, and Asriel's "don't kill, no matter what" philosophy somehow turned into "kill or be killed", or none of them has, but I still got an answer that Chara has. Well, at least before going on to destroy the world if you ever take that direction, but then again, I haven't seen them pick one up on the way, they still need one in the void, and if we assume being soulless as having no feelings at all and taking a soul as the one giving it becoming soulless, then it is not the player's. Because completely without feelings players wouldn't try to scapegoat and demonize Chara.

      I said I subscribe to the theory not follow it word for word like some brainless dolt.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:
      Hey, hows it going


      Hello Star! Thanks for following me to the Undertale Wiki :)

      We've been talking there for a long time, if folks want to see the thread before this one, look over here:

      http://freddy-fazbears-pizza.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:2054300

      Sorry I'm brain-lagged in my responses, notifications here on the Undertale wiki don't seem to work yet for some reason.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:
      I agree that Flowey has a soul even after the pacifist ending but won't retain his form as Asriel due to needing a human and another monster soul at the bare minimum.

      Well, it might have taken everyone's power to restore his boss monster form, but would it really take much energy to maintain it? Asriel was originally just a boss monster kid with a monster soul, but now he's got a human one instead, with his monster soul slowly recharging. If anything I'd say he's more powerful than he was before he died?

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    • No problemo I needed something to do whilst I waited for the slowpokes on the FNAF wiki.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Starscream1998 wrote:
      Hey, hows it going
      Sorry I'm brain-lagged in my responses, notifications here on the Undertale wiki don't seem to work yet for some reason.

      I would say they don't work any more. They used to, but in the past week or so they just vanished into thin air, and we didn't get explanation.

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    • It's like I was telling the others, normally a monster soul cannot absorb another monster soul except when that soul has obtained a human soul and has become something entirely different therefore the rules no longer apply.

      And besides, how was Frisk able to get back to the surface if Flowey only had the human souls. You need a human and a monster soul to even try and attempt anything with the barrier.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:

      BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Starscream1998 wrote:
      Hey, hows it going
      Sorry I'm brain-lagged in my responses, notifications here on the Undertale wiki don't seem to work yet for some reason.

      I would say they don't work any more. They used to, but in the past week or so they just vanished into thin air, and we didn't get explanation.

      That must suck.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      Except Flowey has basic feelings, even when he is soulless. He can get bored, annoyed, worried, terrified, sort of satisfied, has basic survival instinct (it shouldn't even be surprising knowing what determination is), and so on. He just lost the ability for more complex feelings. Like, to feel satisfied for something that has no intrinsic reward. He enjoys having power - he doesn't understand compassion or generosity. He will play with you, kill you, take away what he can - he won't care (or will aim for) inflicting pain or causing fear, and won't make sacrifices on anyone's behalf. He is morally and ethically corruptable, since morals and ethics have no intrinsic rewards.

      Actually, even plants can supposedly feel, up to an uncertain variety and complexity, but including fear, and that alone presumably doesn't cause them to have a soul. Flowey is basically a plant that gained sentience, determination, and some kind of ability to move around and weaponize his pellets.

      Flowey even confirms that he is empty inside, and that he lost the ability to have the feelings that, as Asriel, were satisfying and therefore important to him (but that doesn't mean he lost all feelings in all forms in a world where even rocks have some). Considering that Asriel started out helping everyone after turning into Flowey, but decided on killing for fun, because it was more satisfying, what he says practically immediately after turning Flowey again doesn't prove he has a soul.

      By the way, since he came back as a flower and not his goat self, his body had to turn into "essence", or monster dust if you don't fancy the posh word. Correct me if I'm wrong, but dust is normally teeny-weeny little specks, of which you would need like at least thousands to hold what the size of a soul is depicted (and souls broken into pieces don't seem to work too well). And shouldn't Flowey be like, already the most determined after having a combined human-monster soul with extra determination infused? What is Frisk then, some incarnation of pure determination? Did they eat the stuff for breakfast their whole life? Or did the Asriel-Chara combined soul just linger around without a body, unnoticed by the monsters, who have six tubes with visible souls in them, which they even passed over to their scientist to do research, and can measure the power and intentions of a soul? And then simply decide to go and save Asriel from turning into a flower, just because it sucks and, apparently, you like him? Wait, if that's the case, what Flowey does there on screen after restarting the game? Help, a boss monster with an absorbed human soul he pulled out of a magic hat is badly cloning himself!

      So, since I consider the soulless = no feelings approach false, I don't find the supposed evidence convincing.

      In his confession sequence at the end of the Genocide route Flowey shows a huge range of emotions. He even knows that he's missing something, and WANTS to feel, but is jaded when not even his mother can make him feel love. He plays the Groundhog Day game, saving everyone, using his powers (he's quite powerful for a flower, actually. Sure, Toriel could one-shot him, but Toriel could also one-shot ASGORE) to help others, then, exasperated that nothing helps him feel love, he tries killing everyone out of boredom. Flowey and Asriel both say they specifically lacked compassion, while exibiting all other emotions. The exact thing that Chara lacked.

      Alphys injected a score of yellow flowers with determination, yet only Flowey became self-aware, and mobile, he clearly has something that the others lack, and in abundance. It's true that Frisk gets his vision of falling earlier when he falls into a yellow flowerbed, and there may be traces of Asriel's essense in other flowers, but Asriel absorbed Chara's soul before he died, and it's part of him now, and would be in his scattered essense as well.

      Also, remember that Flowey tells you about how he wanted to die at first, but then while he felt himself going he realized he wanted to live, his determination kicked in, and he went back to his SAVE point.

      Asriel, on the other hand, had just come to the realization that his best friend in the world, Chara, has never actually been his friend at all, and had simply been using him as a means to an end the entire time, thinking she could cynically control his body like a puppet to kill her own people. How did he feel after an experience like that? He wanted to DIE. And so he did.

      Remember, Chara was the first human to fall, Gaster and his determination experiments (Alphys used blueprints she found to make the Determination Extraction machine, she didn't design it) had to come later. It was only after Asriel died that Asgore declared all humans who fell from then on would die.

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    • Jillianbrodsky wrote:
      BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Doctor Alphys injected tons of golden flowers with determination, and the most they did was have clingier seeds and sprout in inhospitable places. Only Flowey achieved self-awareness, and since Alphys' goal of extracting souls from the Fallen Down monsters never panned out, any soul Flowey might have, had to have been with him originally.

      My take on Chara is that she has the Player's soul. At the very beginning we put our own name in as the Fallen Human, believing that this is the Character we will be playing as, and the more our actions mirror what Chara would actually do, the more influence she has over us. On a genocide run Flowey says "You and your stolen soul" after you kill Toriel. Chara makes more and more independent decisions throughout the game, until finally taking over completely at the end of the Sans fight. Then to restore the world, you have to give Chara your soul, which by this time, is something she really has already.

      actually she only injected one

      "I've chosen a candidate. I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it... In the center of his garden, there's something special. The first golden flower, that grew before all the others. The flower from the outside world. It appeared just before the queen left."

      You're forgetting True Lab entries 10 and 12:

      ENTRY NUMBER 10: experiments on the vessel are a failure. it doesn't seem to be any different from the control cases. whatever. they're a hassle to work with anyway. the seeds just stick to you, and won't let go...

      ENTRY NUMBER 12: nothing is happening. i don't know what to do. i'll just keep injecting everything with "determination." i want this to work.

      Here's a listening of all the Lab Entires:

      https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/3lsc0b/huge_spoilers_computer_logs_and_tapes_and_my/

      I do find it very interesting that Gaster's secret Entry 17 happens right between "No No No NOO!!" and "The flower's gone!"

      Althought apparently there's also a second Entry 17 by Alphys, where she talks about the formation of the Amalgamates

      https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/3pet4q/spoilers_another_entry_17/

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      Right now all I get is that in order to make sure Asriel returns, there must be multiple levels of soullessness, and Chara must be bad. Or something like that.

      Well, we know from the Tapes in the True Lab, and Asriels' final dialog when you find him again at the beginning of the game, that Chara was not a nice person.

      She thought it was funny when Asgore got poisoned by buttercups, Asriel wants her to demonstrate her 'creepy smile', Chara herself is the architect of the plan where she herself dies, and Asriel absorbs her soul, telling him that they can go together to her villiage, collect six souls, then return and free his people. And it was a lie, because Chara instead tried to take Asriel over, and force him to kill her entire villiage, her goal from the beginning. Chara is NOT a nice person, she lacks Compassion for others, and always did.

      Asriel is never soulless, he started with his monster soul, absorbed Chara's soul, then died with Chara's absorded soul still part of his essense. Then Asriel comes back as Flowey, possessing only Chara's compassion-less soul now, and finds that he can't feel love no matter how hard he tries. Then Frisk restores his sense of Compassion in the final fight, saving both Asriel, and Chara, in the same act.

      Over time, as Gerson says, Asriel will be getting soul energy from his parents, and his monster soul will reform. Then he'll have 2 again. And there's event the possibility that once he has his own monster soul back, someone could find a way to remove and ressurect Chara.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:
      From Blackfoot maybe. I'm simply stating that Flowey/Asriel still has his soul but due to having Chara's soul as well can't feel compassion. After Frisk falls, Chara moves to the more compatible host stripping Flowey of his reset power and blind malice which begins to dissolve throughout the game until he breaks down in the Pacifist ending.

      The reason Asriel keeps making Flowey out to be nothing more than a soulless thing that'll take his place is sheer shame in knowing there is only one culprit for Flowey's atrocities; HIM.

      Well, we know Toriel removed Chara's body from the coffin and buried right under the place Frisk falls down at the beginning of the game. If some of Asriel's essense, containing Chara's soul now, spread to the other flowers in the garden, it might give Chara's ghost enough of a spark to animate, and bond with Frisk.

      I don't think Asriel's monster soul would have lasted long after his death, which is why Gerson's tale is there to give a method where Asriel can get his monster soul back. Asriels' essense would have persisted throughout though.

      We're still not exactly sure what a SOUL is. Knowing Toby, it's another misleading acronymn like LOVE (Level of Violence) which is completely different than what you'd expect, so there's likely more to a person than just this.

      Don't forget Asriel believes himself to be souless at the end, even when he's compassionately asking Frisk not to tell his family about him, because he believes he's going to fade. He still can't tell that he has one, but Frisk saved something in that final fight, and the results are still there.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      And the problem is, that no one seems forceful here, otherwise I would know if you aren't trying ro be polite. On the other hand, I also don't know if anyone wants to be convincing either.


      Well, if I come off as being firm, it's because I've been doing Undertale research for more than half a year now, so I'm pretty in my findings. Although if you can find a weakness in my logic, let me know, Star found something I missed in the last thread.

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    • Jillianbrodsky wrote:
      Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Flowey doesn't count as a boss monster until he gets godlike powers, and is able to restore his original form. Before then, he's a flower, neither human or monster, able to absorb the souls of each.

      Interestingly, Asgore knows who Frisk is when he turns around when you first meet him. Unless it's a Genocide Run, in which case he looks at Chara curiously, unable to tell what she is. Undyne the Undying also makes a reference to Frisk/Chara being neither human or monster.

      So apparanetly, Ghosts are like flowers in having the Not-human, not-monster status.

      Which is why I think Gaster is a huge Chara-level threat.

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    • Jillianbrodsky wrote:
      Yes it influenced him the way the 6 human souls never did, because he only had human souls in him at that point. When you have humans and monsters it is bound to be different.

      Well, monster souls have most of the love and light in them. Human souls are far less trustworthy.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.
      I hope you know that the narrator Chara theory includes that Chara and Flowey are soulless, and that is why:

      - they are so much unlike in real life

      - Flowey-Asriel recognizes Frisk as Chara through their shared emptiness (despite none of them are their former self)

      - and are morally corruptable.

      Also, it assumes that since their souls were combined, both would have the same fate. So, either both of them has a soul, and Asriel's "don't kill, no matter what" philosophy somehow turned into "kill or be killed", or none of them has, but I still got an answer that Chara has. Well, at least before going on to destroy the world if you ever take that direction, but then again, I haven't seen them pick one up on the way, they still need one in the void, and if we assume being soulless as having no feelings at all and taking a soul as the one giving it becoming soulless, then it is not the player's. Because completely without feelings players wouldn't try to scapegoat and demonize Chara.

      Flowey mistakenly believes that Frisk is Chara because they look so alike (except for Frisk having two shirt stripes while Chara has one). It's only at the end of the True Pacifist run that Asriel realizes what Frisk has done for him, and knows he isn't Chara because of it.

      You could also say that Flowey and Chara are morally corruptable, because they both have human souls :)

      My theory is that Chara's ghost possesses Frisk more and more with each evil action, making his soul her own, much in the way that Asriel absorbed her soul. Chara is a ghost, neither human nor monster (as Undyne the Undying and Asgore both say), something inhuman, but FLowey says early on after Toriel dies that Firsk has a "stolen soul".

      So Flowey has Chara's original human soul, and Chara has Frisk's soul. Basically the Player's soul.

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    • Skaitleen03 wrote:
      We never saw the end of the human souls after true pacifist.Couldnt he have taken them and kept it with him?

      The six human souls got released along with the horde of monster souls.

      The monster souls all went back and became their original monsters again, if you talk to the shopkeeper in Snowdin she talks about seeing a white light, getting sucked up.. then waking up at home. It seems every monster in the underground (except, interestingly, Blooky, who saw the white light inviting but keep his blinds closed)

      It's possible the human souls went back to the surface and became people again, there's no way to know at this point

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:
      It's like I was telling the others, normally a monster soul cannot absorb another monster soul except when that soul has obtained a human soul and has become something entirely different therefore the rules no longer apply.

      And besides, how was Frisk able to get back to the surface if Flowey only had the human souls. You need a human and a monster soul to even try and attempt anything with the barrier.


      I believe Swankybox did a video about the quandry of what happens in a Neutral Undertale ending.

      Out of all of Undertale's mirad possibilities, there are no eventualities where Frisk actually absorbs a monster soul. He always watches Toriel's explode, and Flowey does in Asgore's. Which means at the end of the game, Frisk is also unable to go through the barrier.

      This is why I believe Frisk goes into the True Lab, and takes a portal to the past, to try to help himself out earlier to get a better ending.

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    • Rawrg! Finally caught up.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Isthereaplace wrote:
      Right now all I get is that in order to make sure Asriel returns, there must be multiple levels of soullessness, and Chara must be bad. Or something like that.
      Well, we know from the Tapes in the True Lab, and Asriels' final dialog when you find him again at the beginning of the game, that Chara was not a nice person.

      She thought it was funny when Asgore got poisoned by buttercups, Asriel wants her to demonstrate her 'creepy smile', Chara herself is the architect of the plan where she herself dies, and Asriel absorbs her soul, telling him that they can go together to her villiage, collect six souls, then return and free his people. And it was a lie, because Chara instead tried to take Asriel over, and force him to kill her entire villiage, her goal from the beginning. Chara is NOT a nice person, she lacks Compassion for others, and always did.

      Asriel is never soulless, he started with his monster soul, absorbed Chara's soul, then died with Chara's absorded soul still part of his essense. Then Asriel comes back as Flowey, possessing only Chara's compassion-less soul now, and finds that he can't feel love no matter how hard he tries. Then Frisk restores his sense of Compassion in the final fight, saving both Asriel, and Chara, in the same act.

      Over time, as Gerson says, Asriel will be getting soul energy from his parents, and his monster soul will reform. Then he'll have 2 again. And there's event the possibility that once he has his own monster soul back, someone could find a way to remove and ressurect Chara.


      No, we get to know Chara wasn't the best. Not that they weren't good or nice, and even less that they were outright bad or malicious. They just wouldn't get a 100% rating despite being Asriel's best friend. I know about someone else, who is a hero to all monsters, and even the narrator, but would fail to achieve 100% Asriel-approvance. Monster Kid outright idolizes her, Papyrus looks up to her, Asgore is proud of her, Alphys fell in love with her but thinks she's way under her league: Undyne. Is Undyne a good person? Yes. She is reliable, strong, would go to any length for her kind, and is even fair with her enemies. We know she would kill any number of humans necessary, but wouldn't even hurt monsters - why is it so hard to imagine that Chara may had similar standing? Is she the best? No. She's hot headed, violent, and is hostile on multiple levels even towards a pacifist protagonist, who is already friends with Papyrus. She even calls them a coward if they save Monster Kid, but later reveals in an optional phone call, that she was relieved that they did.

      Laughing off isn't finding something funny: it is trying to lighten something that you don't find funny. Even Asriel agrees that what Chara did was correct, and he wouldn't think laughing at the suffering of his father is correct. Yes, the plan comes from Chara, and they somewhat press Asriel into doing it (kind of how Undyne presses Papyrus into helping her hunt down his new friend). It wasn't a lie: Chara refers to it as "our" plan, and Asriel only agreed to kill six humans, as evidenced by the video tapes. Anything planned beyond that wouldn't be "our" plan, but "my" plan. Also, if Chara is the narrator, they are compassionate - except not for humans. It seems no one thought about what could possibly have driven Chara up Mount Ebott. Certainly nice and compassionate and rainbows with sugar lumps on them human behaviour, and not the selfish, abusive, greedy, pitch black in a starless night during lunar eclipse in a lightless cellar kind that got them to slaughter and imprison monsters.

      Asriel is, as Flowey, soulless. He even describes himself as "empty inside". He acts on a personal code that is the polar opposite of his former behaviour. Asriel mentions that his and Chara's souls were combined. The two should have suffered the same fate, or ended up in the same place. Not in Flowey, since he has less determination than Frisk, and with a monster and human soul combined, extra determination injected in, that shouldn't happen.

      Yes, if Asriel ever gains a soul, he may get back to his original self, and continue to gain energy from his parents. In his soulless flower form, it doesn't seem to happen, as Asgore and Toriel didn't really get old, despite Undyne only guessing, and Alphys and Papyrus are oblivious to, that Toriel is Asgore's ex - and we know Undyne was a child when she started training with Asgore.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Isthereaplace wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.
      I hope you know that the narrator Chara theory includes that Chara and Flowey are soulless, and that is why:

      - they are so much unlike in real life

      - Flowey-Asriel recognizes Frisk as Chara through their shared emptiness (despite none of them are their former self)

      - and are morally corruptable.

      Also, it assumes that since their souls were combined, both would have the same fate. So, either both of them has a soul, and Asriel's "don't kill, no matter what" philosophy somehow turned into "kill or be killed", or none of them has, but I still got an answer that Chara has. Well, at least before going on to destroy the world if you ever take that direction, but then again, I haven't seen them pick one up on the way, they still need one in the void, and if we assume being soulless as having no feelings at all and taking a soul as the one giving it becoming soulless, then it is not the player's. Because completely without feelings players wouldn't try to scapegoat and demonize Chara.

      I said I subscribe to the theory not follow it word for word like some brainless dolt.

      Neither do I. I just know what it is about. It doesn't hurt, even for someone who got into it on gut feeling.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Isthereaplace wrote:
      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.
      I hope you know that the narrator Chara theory includes that Chara and Flowey are soulless, and that is why:

      - they are so much unlike in real life

      - Flowey-Asriel recognizes Frisk as Chara through their shared emptiness (despite none of them are their former self)

      - and are morally corruptable.

      Also, it assumes that since their souls were combined, both would have the same fate. So, either both of them has a soul, and Asriel's "don't kill, no matter what" philosophy somehow turned into "kill or be killed", or none of them has, but I still got an answer that Chara has. Well, at least before going on to destroy the world if you ever take that direction, but then again, I haven't seen them pick one up on the way, they still need one in the void, and if we assume being soulless as having no feelings at all and taking a soul as the one giving it becoming soulless, then it is not the player's. Because completely without feelings players wouldn't try to scapegoat and demonize Chara.

      Flowey mistakenly believes that Frisk is Chara because they look so alike (except for Frisk having two shirt stripes while Chara has one). It's only at the end of the True Pacifist run that Asriel realizes what Frisk has done for him, and knows he isn't Chara because of it.

      You could also say that Flowey and Chara are morally corruptable, because they both have human souls :)

      My theory is that Chara's ghost possesses Frisk more and more with each evil action, making his soul her own, much in the way that Asriel absorbed her soul. Chara is a ghost, neither human nor monster (as Undyne the Undying and Asgore both say), something inhuman, but FLowey says early on after Toriel dies that Firsk has a "stolen soul".

      So Flowey has Chara's original human soul, and Chara has Frisk's soul. Basically the Player's soul.

      Flowey recognizes Frisk as Chara only when they go out of their way to wipe out everyone. He recognizes them, because he knows that Chara, like him, has no soul. It is the soulless behaviour that leads him to this conclusion. Otherwise, Toriel and Asgore should be able to point out the similarities. Toriel doesn't, and on the genocide route, Asgore doesn't either. On the other hand, Flowey doesn't recognize Frisk as Chara if they follow a neutral path, no matter if they have only missed a single monster. It is the machine-like, emotionless behaviour that tips Flowey off, and showing mercy that reminds Asgore of Chara.

      Yes, you can. You can also bid bye to Asriel as you would probably like him to come back if you go down that route, because his soul became combined with Chara's.

      Yes, I understand your theory. On this wiki "love and bring back Asriel and demonize Chara" theories are a dime a dozen.

      I don't agree with that. Chara outright states that Frisk's (or the player's, if you prefer that) soul wasn't theirs.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Isthereaplace wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.
      I hope you know that the narrator Chara theory includes that Chara and Flowey are soulless, and that is why:

      - they are so much unlike in real life

      - Flowey-Asriel recognizes Frisk as Chara through their shared emptiness (despite none of them are their former self)

      - and are morally corruptable.

      Also, it assumes that since their souls were combined, both would have the same fate. So, either both of them has a soul, and Asriel's "don't kill, no matter what" philosophy somehow turned into "kill or be killed", or none of them has, but I still got an answer that Chara has. Well, at least before going on to destroy the world if you ever take that direction, but then again, I haven't seen them pick one up on the way, they still need one in the void, and if we assume being soulless as having no feelings at all and taking a soul as the one giving it becoming soulless, then it is not the player's. Because completely without feelings players wouldn't try to scapegoat and demonize Chara.

      I said I subscribe to the theory not follow it word for word like some brainless dolt.

      Neither do I. I just know what it is about. It doesn't hurt, even for someone who got into it on gut feeling.

      True, but as you've probably figured out my version is quite different from the original.

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    • I still feel rather lost here.

      The underlying idea that seems to carry this conclusion is that the flower that constitutes Flowey had some of Asriel's essence on it. Therefore, Flowey is still compromised of a monster soul, and since he absorbed Chara's soul, a human soul as well.

      The major evidence is that Flowey exhibits some form of emotion, but this is built on the faulty presumption that being "soulless" means being unable to feel anything, which is never said. Flowey specifies the ability to love and feel compassion for others. Now this gets justified on the idea that if Flowey wasn't able to feel love and compassion, it was because he had Chara's soul inside of him. But this contradicts all of the explicit dialogue from the game that outright states that Flowey does not have a soul, including from Flowey himself.

      The logic appears to be that since human souls persist, and Chara's soul is nowhere to be found, it must remain in Asriel's essence, giving Flowey an actual soul. But there is no reason for why this premise should be adopted. Given that we have only a single instance of an actual monster absorbing a human soul, and upon that monster's death nothing remains, the more likely conclusion to draw is that the human soul essentially takes on the property of the monster's soul, meaning that when the monster dies, the human souls within dissipate as well. In the other two instances we have Flowey, where in one case the souls rebel before he can be killed (and consequently disappear), while in the other they are released by Flowey in the form of Asriel, with an unknown conclusion.

      Likewise, there is no evidence that the monster's dust from when they die is their soul. The only pieces of information we have on the subject suggest that the monster's soul disappears immediately upon death. Their dust simply carries their "essence," a sort of imprint of who they are. If Toby had meant for this "essence" to be the actual soul, he could easily have said that it allows the soul of the monster to live on. In turn, if this essence does carry the soul, then it should carry either just Asriel's, or both Asriel's and Chara's, meaning that Flowey would retain his ability to feel love and compassion, and leaving us without any explanation for why he describes himself continually as soulless.

      So we lack a mechanism for how any of this actually works, and in turn any attempt to explain such a mechanism runs afoul of every piece of explicit evidence to the contrary.

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    • I'm more concerned with that I don't know what to expect from that version.

        Loading editor
    • Nothing too absurd but just the right amount of common sense.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Isthereaplace wrote:
      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.
      I hope you know that the narrator Chara theory includes that Chara and Flowey are soulless, and that is why:

      - they are so much unlike in real life

      - Flowey-Asriel recognizes Frisk as Chara through their shared emptiness (despite none of them are their former self)

      - and are morally corruptable.

      Also, it assumes that since their souls were combined, both would have the same fate. So, either both of them has a soul, and Asriel's "don't kill, no matter what" philosophy somehow turned into "kill or be killed", or none of them has, but I still got an answer that Chara has. Well, at least before going on to destroy the world if you ever take that direction, but then again, I haven't seen them pick one up on the way, they still need one in the void, and if we assume being soulless as having no feelings at all and taking a soul as the one giving it becoming soulless, then it is not the player's. Because completely without feelings players wouldn't try to scapegoat and demonize Chara.

      Flowey mistakenly believes that Frisk is Chara because they look so alike (except for Frisk having two shirt stripes while Chara has one). It's only at the end of the True Pacifist run that Asriel realizes what Frisk has done for him, and knows he isn't Chara because of it.
      You could also say that Flowey and Chara are morally corruptable, because they both have human souls :)

      My theory is that Chara's ghost possesses Frisk more and more with each evil action, making his soul her own, much in the way that Asriel absorbed her soul. Chara is a ghost, neither human nor monster (as Undyne the Undying and Asgore both say), something inhuman, but FLowey says early on after Toriel dies that Firsk has a "stolen soul".

      So Flowey has Chara's original human soul, and Chara has Frisk's soul. Basically the Player's soul.

      Flowey recognizes Frisk as Chara only when they go out of their way to wipe out everyone. He recognizes them, because he knows that Chara, like him, has no soul. It is the soulless behaviour that leads him to this conclusion. Otherwise, Toriel and Asgore should be able to point out the similarities. Toriel doesn't, and on the genocide route, Asgore doesn't either. On the other hand, Flowey doesn't recognize Frisk as Chara if they follow a neutral path, no matter if they have only missed a single monster. It is the machine-like, emotionless behaviour that tips Flowey off, and showing mercy that reminds Asgore of Chara.

      Yes, you can. You can also bid bye to Asriel as you would probably like him to come back if you go down that route, because his soul became combined with Chara's.

      Yes, I understand your theory. On this wiki "love and bring back Asriel and demonize Chara" theories are a dime a dozen.

      I don't agree with that. Chara outright states that Frisk's (or the player's, if you prefer that) soul wasn't theirs.


      When Genocide-run Chara meets Flowey after she kills Toriel, they have this conversation:


      Flowey:

      "You're not really human, are you?"

      "No. You're empty inside. Just like me. In fact..."

      "You're Chara, right?"

      "We're still inseperable, after all these years..."

      "Listen. I have a plan to become all powerful."

      "Even more powerful than you and your stolen soul."

      "Let's destroy everything in this wretched world."

      "Everyone, everything in these worthless memories... Let's turn 'em all to dust."


      By "empty inside" Flowey is referring to Chara's lack of compassion, because he acknowledges four lines down that Chara has a soul "...Even more powerful than you and your stolen soul."

      Furthermore, Flowey comments on how he and Chara are still "inseperable, after all these years." This is actually a quite LITERAL statement.. Chara's original soul is inside Flowey, they're entirely inseperable. While Chara has Frisk's (our) stolen soul.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:
      Nothing too absurd but just the right amount of common sense.

      Can you share your take on Undertale with us Star?

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Isthereaplace wrote:
      BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Isthereaplace wrote:
      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.
      I hope you know that the narrator Chara theory includes that Chara and Flowey are soulless, and that is why:

      - they are so much unlike in real life

      - Flowey-Asriel recognizes Frisk as Chara through their shared emptiness (despite none of them are their former self)

      - and are morally corruptable.

      Also, it assumes that since their souls were combined, both would have the same fate. So, either both of them has a soul, and Asriel's "don't kill, no matter what" philosophy somehow turned into "kill or be killed", or none of them has, but I still got an answer that Chara has. Well, at least before going on to destroy the world if you ever take that direction, but then again, I haven't seen them pick one up on the way, they still need one in the void, and if we assume being soulless as having no feelings at all and taking a soul as the one giving it becoming soulless, then it is not the player's. Because completely without feelings players wouldn't try to scapegoat and demonize Chara.

      Flowey mistakenly believes that Frisk is Chara because they look so alike (except for Frisk having two shirt stripes while Chara has one). It's only at the end of the True Pacifist run that Asriel realizes what Frisk has done for him, and knows he isn't Chara because of it.
      You could also say that Flowey and Chara are morally corruptable, because they both have human souls :)

      My theory is that Chara's ghost possesses Frisk more and more with each evil action, making his soul her own, much in the way that Asriel absorbed her soul. Chara is a ghost, neither human nor monster (as Undyne the Undying and Asgore both say), something inhuman, but FLowey says early on after Toriel dies that Firsk has a "stolen soul".

      So Flowey has Chara's original human soul, and Chara has Frisk's soul. Basically the Player's soul.

      Flowey recognizes Frisk as Chara only when they go out of their way to wipe out everyone. He recognizes them, because he knows that Chara, like him, has no soul. It is the soulless behaviour that leads him to this conclusion. Otherwise, Toriel and Asgore should be able to point out the similarities. Toriel doesn't, and on the genocide route, Asgore doesn't either. On the other hand, Flowey doesn't recognize Frisk as Chara if they follow a neutral path, no matter if they have only missed a single monster. It is the machine-like, emotionless behaviour that tips Flowey off, and showing mercy that reminds Asgore of Chara.

      Yes, you can. You can also bid bye to Asriel as you would probably like him to come back if you go down that route, because his soul became combined with Chara's.

      Yes, I understand your theory. On this wiki "love and bring back Asriel and demonize Chara" theories are a dime a dozen.

      I don't agree with that. Chara outright states that Frisk's (or the player's, if you prefer that) soul wasn't theirs.

      By "empty inside" Flowey is referring to Chara's lack of compassion, because he acknowledges four lines down that Chara has a soul "...Even more powerful than you and your stolen soul."

      Furthermore, Flowey comments on how he and Chara are still "inseperable, after all these years." This is actually a quite LITERAL statement.. Chara's original soul is inside Flowey, they're entirely inseperable. While Chara has Frisk's (our) stolen soul.

      No, Flowey doesn't say he has a soul. He can feel the presence of a soul. On the pacifist route, Frisk can feel the presence of the lost souls, so it seems in the underground everyone is capable of that. Flowey wants to steal Asgore's collection. When he succeeds, he doesn't suddenly become kind, although having a soul of his own should return him into being Asriel, and he absorbs six, one of which is kindness.

      Going a step further, when he steals six human souls and almost every, supposedly loving and compassionate, monster souls, regaining his original form and improving on it, his first action is to try and erase all timelines. Or trying to electrocute, autofire, raygun, starthrow, slice-and-dice, and paralyze someone you identify as your best friend is the sign of compassion? So, Chara doesn't have compassion, because they only destroy the world on genocide, and don't try to murder Frisk in flashy ways?

      No, a stolen soul isn't your own. That's why it is stolen. It is someone else's, you just took it, and it gives you power, but not the ability to feel love or compassion, or understand feelings. It gives you determination, which can be harvested from a soul, but having determination only gives "the will to keep living", and "the resolve to change fate", not compassion or love.

      As for being inseparable: Asriel and Chara were supposed to be best friends. Forever. BFFs tend to be inseparable for most of their waking hours. Chara and Asriel even shared a room and a family, and were like siblings. If Flowey could feel the presence of Chara, he would recognize them on all routes, at the same time, and wouldn't have to guess. Because "right?", with a question mark, usually means seeking confirmation on what you think is a fair guess, and Flowey gets to this conclusion much later on the pacifist route.

      If you want to save Asriel, there is a fair guess where his and Chara's combined soul is, and since monsters are leaving the underground, they probably won't need it.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:
      Nothing too absurd but just the right amount of common sense.

      Can you share your take on Undertale with us Star?

      Haha, what aspect?

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    • Mabian wrote:
      I still feel rather lost here.

      The underlying idea that seems to carry this conclusion is that the flower that constitutes Flowey had some of Asriel's essence on it. Therefore, Flowey is still compromised of a monster soul, and since he absorbed Chara's soul, a human soul as well.

      BFF - Essence is different from a SOUL, we're still not even sure SOUL means what we think it means, if it's an acronym, and it seems to be since it's often in all caps, it could mean something very different. Anyways, I believe Asriel's monster soul dissapates on death (otherwise why would Gerson need to say he's going to get it back), so Flowey only has Chara's during his time as a flower.

      The major evidence is that Flowey exhibits some form of emotion, but this is built on the faulty presumption that being "soulless" means being unable to feel anything, which is never said. Flowey specifies the ability to love and feel compassion for others. Now this gets justified on the idea that if Flowey wasn't able to feel love and compassion, it was because he had Chara's soul inside of him. But this contradicts all of the explicit dialogue from the game that outright states that Flowey does not have a soul, including from Flowey himself.

      BFF - Yes, Flowey, who is easily able to experience all other emotions, decries his lack of ability to feel love. If becoming a flower blanks his emotions, it should blank ALL of his emotions, not just one specificially. As far as I know the only explicit dialog about Flowey being soulness comes from himself. How do you explain the seventh soul Frisk finds inside Asriel?

      The logic appears to be that since human souls persist, and Chara's soul is nowhere to be found, it must remain in Asriel's essence, giving Flowey an actual soul. But there is no reason for why this premise should be adopted. Given that we have only a single instance of an actual monster absorbing a human soul, and upon that monster's death nothing remains, the more likely conclusion to draw is that the human soul essentially takes on the property of the monster's soul, meaning that when the monster dies, the human souls within dissipate as well. In the other two instances we have Flowey, where in one case the souls rebel before he can be killed (and consequently disappear), while in the other they are released by Flowey in the form of Asriel, with an unknown conclusion.

      BFF - Perhaps Toby didn't show a human soul coming out of Flowey when he gets cut to pieces because it would ruin the mystery? When Frisk stabs Flowey in a neutral ending, it just turns back into a normal flower without splitting apart. Perhaps Chara repeatedly chopping Flowey in the genocide ending destroy the soul before it can emerge?

      Likewise, there is no evidence that the monster's dust from when they die is their soul. The only pieces of information we have on the subject suggest that the monster's soul disappears immediately upon death. Their dust simply carries their "essence," a sort of imprint of who they are. If Toby had meant for this "essence" to be the actual soul, he could easily have said that it allows the soul of the monster to live on. In turn, if this essence does carry the soul, then it should carry either just Asriel's, or both Asriel's and Chara's, meaning that Flowey would retain his ability to feel love and compassion, and leaving us without any explanation for why he describes himself continually as soulless.

      BFF - Again, essense is a different thing. Even those who believe Flowey is soulless accept that Asriel essense is in him after it scattered over the First Flower. If Asriel still had his own soul inside him he'd be able to feel love, so I don't think it made the transition. Perhaps a person can't feel their own soul? Flowey assumes he's soulless because he can't feel love, so it's a bit of a cycle.

      So we lack a mechanism for how any of this actually works, and in turn any attempt to explain such a mechanism runs afoul of every piece of explicit evidence to the contrary.

      Could you list this explicit evidence please? So far we only have Flowey's word that he's soulless, which he bases on the face that he feels empty inside, because he can't feel love, not knowing he can't feel love because he's got Chara's loveless soul inside him.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      BlackfootFerret wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:
      Nothing too absurd but just the right amount of common sense.
      Can you share your take on Undertale with us Star?
      Haha, what aspect?


      Whatever burning theories you'd like to put out there that the universe needs to hear :)

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Isthereaplace wrote:
      BlackfootFerret wrote:
      Isthereaplace wrote:
      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Jillianbrodsky wrote: Everyone wants to make Chara into this absolutely evil being because of the end of the genocide run. In reality, it's Frisk's actions that led Chara to the conclusion of power etc.

      But okay, you won't agree with that. It says in the game that monsters can't absorb other monster souls. Humans can't absorb human souls. But flowey absorbed the souls of humans AND monsters. Therefore he is neither.

      "ENTRY NUMBER 7

      We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.

      After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.

      Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...

      So then..."

      Ironically, I completely agree with your bit on Chara as I subscribe to the narrator Chara theory. Asriel's merge with the monsters was clearly imperfect as they began to influence his mind in a way the 6 human souls never did.
      I hope you know that the narrator Chara theory includes that Chara and Flowey are soulless, and that is why:

      - they are so much unlike in real life

      - Flowey-Asriel recognizes Frisk as Chara through their shared emptiness (despite none of them are their former self)

      - and are morally corruptable.

      Also, it assumes that since their souls were combined, both would have the same fate. So, either both of them has a soul, and Asriel's "don't kill, no matter what" philosophy somehow turned into "kill or be killed", or none of them has, but I still got an answer that Chara has. Well, at least before going on to destroy the world if you ever take that direction, but then again, I haven't seen them pick one up on the way, they still need one in the void, and if we assume being soulless as having no feelings at all and taking a soul as the one giving it becoming soulless, then it is not the player's. Because completely without feelings players wouldn't try to scapegoat and demonize Chara.

      Flowey mistakenly believes that Frisk is Chara because they look so alike (except for Frisk having two shirt stripes while Chara has one). It's only at the end of the True Pacifist run that Asriel realizes what Frisk has done for him, and knows he isn't Chara because of it.
      You could also say that Flowey and Chara are morally corruptable, because they both have human souls :)

      My theory is that Chara's ghost possesses Frisk more and more with each evil action, making his soul her own, much in the way that Asriel absorbed her soul. Chara is a ghost, neither human nor monster (as Undyne the Undying and Asgore both say), something inhuman, but FLowey says early on after Toriel dies that Firsk has a "stolen soul".

      So Flowey has Chara's original human soul, and Chara has Frisk's soul. Basically the Player's soul.

      Flowey recognizes Frisk as Chara only when they go out of their way to wipe out everyone. He recognizes them, because he knows that Chara, like him, has no soul. It is the soulless behaviour that leads him to this conclusion. Otherwise, Toriel and Asgore should be able to point out the similarities. Toriel doesn't, and on the genocide route, Asgore doesn't either. On the other hand, Flowey doesn't recognize Frisk as Chara if they follow a neutral path, no matter if they have only missed a single monster. It is the machine-like, emotionless behaviour that tips Flowey off, and showing mercy that reminds Asgore of Chara.

      Yes, you can. You can also bid bye to Asriel as you would probably like him to come back if you go down that route, because his soul became combined with Chara's.

      Yes, I understand your theory. On this wiki "love and bring back Asriel and demonize Chara" theories are a dime a dozen.

      I don't agree with that. Chara outright states that Frisk's (or the player's, if you prefer that) soul wasn't theirs.

      By "empty inside" Flowey is referring to Chara's lack of compassion, because he acknowledges four lines down that Chara has a soul "...Even more powerful than you and your stolen soul."

      Furthermore, Flowey comments on how he and Chara are still "inseperable, after all these years." This is actually a quite LITERAL statement.. Chara's original soul is inside Flowey, they're entirely inseperable. While Chara has Frisk's (our) stolen soul.

      No, Flowey doesn't say he has a soul. He can feel the presence of a soul. On the pacifist route, Frisk can feel the presence of the lost souls, so it seems in the underground everyone is capable of that. Flowey wants to steal Asgore's collection. When he succeeds, he doesn't suddenly become kind, although having a soul of his own should return him into being Asriel, and he absorbs six, one of which is kindness.

      Going a step further, when he steals six human souls and almost every, supposedly loving and compassionate, monster souls, regaining his original form and improving on it, his first action is to try and erase all timelines. Or trying to electrocute, autofire, raygun, starthrow, slice-and-dice, and paralyze someone you identify as your best friend is the sign of compassion? So, Chara doesn't have compassion, because they only destroy the world on genocide, and don't try to murder Frisk in flashy ways?

      No, a stolen soul isn't your own. That's why it is stolen. It is someone else's, you just took it, and it gives you power, but not the ability to feel love or compassion, or understand feelings. It gives you determination, which can be harvested from a soul, but having determination only gives "the will to keep living", and "the resolve to change fate", not compassion or love.

      As for being inseparable: Asriel and Chara were supposed to be best friends. Forever. BFFs tend to be inseparable for most of their waking hours. Chara and Asriel even shared a room and a family, and were like siblings. If Flowey could feel the presence of Chara, he would recognize them on all routes, at the same time, and wouldn't have to guess. Because "right?", with a question mark, usually means seeking confirmation on what you think is a fair guess, and Flowey gets to this conclusion much later on the pacifist route.

      If you want to save Asriel, there is a fair guess where his and Chara's combined soul is, and since monsters are leaving the underground, they probably won't need it.

      Perhaps there are different degress to absorbing a soul, particularly if you're very close to someone? Flowey can feel the souls he stole from the humans and the monsters, and the don't immediately make him feel compassion, and the souls can escape, never truly becoming part of him. But perhaps Chara's soul is closer to him than anyone, so close that doesn't recognize it as foreign.

      It's only when Frisk tries to save the 7th soul inside Asriel that Asriel suddenly is surpised, wondering what's happening, and sudden begins to feel compassion entering him again. So this 7th soul is an intristic part of Asriel, while the others are being borrowed. Either it's his, or it's Chara's. And his soul would been overflowing with compassion. So it has to be Chara's.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      BlackfootFerret wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:
      Nothing too absurd but just the right amount of common sense.
      Can you share your take on Undertale with us Star?
      Haha, what aspect?


      Whatever burning theories you'd like to put out there that the universe needs to hear :)

      Well Ok I'll briefly give the run-down:

      -Chara is the one narrating when we see what we presumed were Frisks thoughts.

      -San's, Papyrus and W.D Gaster are all revenant-based monsters that came from a different timeline.

      -Flowey/Asriel still has his soul but couldn't feel compassion due to Chara's soul also being inside him after his death. After Chara left to inhabit Frisk Flowey lost his reset abilities and his malevolent demeanour starts breaking down into either fear (genocide) or remorse (pacifist). Not to mention Flowey would need to have a monster soul to open the barrier temporarily for Frisk in the Neutral ending.

      - Ghosts have their own kind of soul (they're basically from another dimension or species from monsters probably) which is incorporeal like them thus explaining why you can't kill Napstablook. However, a ghost's soul can be dissipated should the ghost take on physical form i.e. the dummy, the mad dummy and Mettaton.

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    • Ok. We do see Chara narrating in red text during parts of the Genocide run.

      I do agree that Sans Papyrus and Gaster traveled together from another place, and know each other well. Papyrus is definitley a real skeleton monster, but my own take is that Sans and Gaster were both human, at least at some point in the past.

      If Flowey actually had a monster soul and a human soul, he'd be able to go through the barrier on his own to collect more human souls, and wouldn't need to hunt for Asgore's 6 captured souls. It's possible he never tried to go back through the barrier, believing himself to be empty, but with all his Groundhog Day resets I think he'd of discovered it eventually.  I don't think anyone succeeded in going through the barrier except for Asriel and Chara until the barrier was finally destroyed.

      Ghosts definitley have a very important place in Undertale. We know Mettaton used to be a ghost, and Blooky's cousin, so ghosts have souls. Blooky also says in the True Pacifist Epilogue that the white light that was collecting everyone (Asriel) tried to collect him too, but he closed the blinds, and afterwards he was the only one who couldn't remember who Asriel was. Ghosts and burrowing creatures (like Flowey) are specifically listed as the only creatures who can travel back and forth been the Underground and The Ruins, which Blooky can certanly do.

      Ghosts and Amalgamates also seem to be the only creatures who can radicatlly shift their shape. Which is very interesting, because Muffet says she saw the creature who paid her to collect Frisk's soul shapeshift in the shadows. A ghost might have it in for Frisk.

      Chara is a ghost, and is called in many places in the game Neither Human Nor Monster, able to absorb human and monster souls. A first-class threat.

      In Gaster's secret room, you can walk right through his sprite as if it isn't even there, something you can't do with most NPCS. Then he shapeshifts a little as he fades away when you touch him. Gaster's definitely a ghost now, and he's going to be incredibly dangerous in the next game.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote: Ok. We do see Chara narrating in red text during parts of the Genocide run.

      I do agree that Sans Papyrus and Gaster traveled together from another place, and know each other well. Papyrus is definitley a real skeleton monster, but my own take is that Sans and Gaster were both human, at least at some point in the past.

      If Flowey actually had a monster soul and a human soul, he'd be able to go through the barrier on his own to collect more human souls, and wouldn't need to hunt for Asgore's 6 captured souls. It's possible he never tried to go back through the barrier, believing himself to be empty, but with all his Groundhog Day resets I think he'd of discovered it eventually.  I don't think anyone succeeded in going through the barrier except for Asriel and Chara until the barrier was finally destroyed.

      Ghosts definitley have a very important place in Undertale. We know Mettaton used to be a ghost, and Blooky's cousin, so ghosts have souls. Blooky also says in the True Pacifist Epilogue that the white light that was collecting everyone (Asriel) tried to collect him too, but he closed the blinds, and afterwards he was the only one who couldn't remember who Asriel was. Ghosts and burrowing creatures (like Flowey) are specifically listed as the only creatures who can travel back and forth been the Underground and The Ruins, which Blooky can certanly do.

      Ghosts and Amalgamates also seem to be the only creatures who can radicatlly shift their shape. Which is very interesting, because Muffet says she saw the creature who paid her to collect Frisk's soul shapeshift in the shadows. A ghost might have it in for Frisk.

      Chara is a ghost, and is called in many places in the game Neither Human Nor Monster, able to absorb human and monster souls. A first-class threat.

      In Gaster's secret room, you can walk right through his sprite as if it isn't even there, something you can't do with most NPCS. Then he shapeshifts a little as he fades away when you touch him. Gaster's definitely a ghost now, and he's going to be incredibly dangerous in the next game.

      The red text symbolises Chara becoming more active and riled up by your own malice-filled soul it's not just Frisk's soul you're damning when you go full on no mercy.

      Nah, revenants are an obvious inspiration for the Skeletrio to me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uBGfEOoDkM

      Flowey wasn't aware of Chara's continued presence inside him I mean for Gods sake the petal brain thinks he's soulless.

      Gotta love dem ghosts, an OP race indeed.

      It would be interesting for a ghost to be the new antagonist for a potential sequel.

      Chara is indeed a ghost but the whole not human thing is just meant to show how ironic it is that he's the only TRUE monster here in a geno route.

      Gaster is more so just intangible than a ghost as that kinda happens when you're ripped from space-time.

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    • The narrator has optional red text even on LV1 EXP0 neutral runs. They also keep most of their text white on genocide. It is a kind of strong emotional response, but not necessarily malice.

      There is a revenant theory somewhere on Sans. I don't follow it, but you might be interested.

      I think Flowey really is soulless.

      Ghosts tend to be invulnerable to physical effects in other RPGs, too.

      I don't think there will be a direct sequel.

      We don't know what or who Chara is, only that they are the remains of a human in some form. But they aren't the true monster even on genocide. The player is.

      I'm not into Gaster theories. There is too little to work with, while any result has little impact on the game world from Frisk's perspective, which is my preferred viewpoint. That's why I don't think there is evil in the game, except players who kill everyone for fun.

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    • Alright so emotional then if you want to simplify things.

      I know I am I just posted a hyperlink to it.

      Well good for you

      I don't care about other RPG's they don't factor in on Undertale's story.

      You're right but Overtale is looking pretty good as an indirect sequel.

      We do know who Chara is he's the first human to fall, the being who ends up possessing you at the end of genocide and the origin of the 'kill or be killed' ideology and I'm not talking meta so don't bring the player into the equation bring Frisk into it.

      Yes because killing 6 kids is totally not evil.

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    • No, we don't know who Chara is. You believe that they are the narrator, and we get the most optimistic narration on no-kill runs. There is even slight difference to single-kill no LV gain runs. Seems like the narrator doesn't want you to kill.

      Doing something evil doesn't make you evil. Doing evil most of the time does. I didn't say that everyone was good, I said that no one is truly evil. The game tries to reinforce the idea that there is no cause worth killing for, and that no intention justifies doing so. The interaction with Chara takes it a step further: it tries to reinforce that killing because you think you're above consequences (in other words: for fun) is the worst thing ever. If Chara has a fixation on something, it is not killing, but holding everyone responsible for their actions.

      It seems it didn't occur to anyone that eight children climbed a mountain from where no one is supposed to return. Everyone is satisfied with noting that Chara hated humanity - but why? Could it be related to the reason the other seven kids went to literally disappear? If it was, then Chara's hatred is pretty much rightful.

      We should also note that it happened in a relatively short time. Monsters were sealed underground by humans wielding swords. That wasn't around the time when video cameras were available, and the Dreemurrs have one. So, we have no information on kids going there for at least centuries, then suddenly eight did in succession. It should have been fairly rapid: Alphys and Papyrus are oblivious to who Toriel might be, and even Undyne can only guess. So, it probably happened in as short as Undyne growing up from hot headed kid who challenged Asgore to head of the Royal Guard. That's eight kids who ran away in probably as few as thirty years time, from the vicinity of the mountain! Chara is described to be from a village, and if the others came from the same place, it is an alarming rate compared to the population as a whole.

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    • Chara hates humanity not monsters you've got Chara completely backwards.

      Spare me the good and evil lecture this game is about not being above the consequence leave such childish ideology at the doorstep if you would.

      There are plenty of reasons for Chara to hate humanity (some that I probably harbour as well) its not exactly hard.

      Pretty sure one of the humans is holding what looks to be a magic staff and I fail to see where your going with all the talk about time and who knows who. Monsters as Ferret pointed out age when they transfer energy to their offspring so that would explain why Asgore and Toriel are ancient. Chara was the first child and over the course of many centuries a total of 7 kids fell down including Frisk.

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    • I didn't say they hated monsters.

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    • Also, sorry to have disturbed the security of your beliefs, whatever they are. You can have them.

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    • Disturbed my beliefs do you really take me for such a petty fool?

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    • You thought that because the narrator discouraged you from killing that it wasn't Chara but your mistake was thinking that Chara would never discourage you from killing. Chara has a positive and gentle disposition amongst his jaded views of the world as we witness in the recordings we hear with him and Asriel.

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    • I believe in the narrator Chara theory. I just don't advocate it left and right.

      Also, I don't know what to take you for.

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    • Take me as I am and not as any sort of preconceived notion you may have. I do not cling to theories and I often change my mind but when I know what I'm talking about I ask that you not suddenly draw up the notion that I am so mentally fragile to be shattered by a mild rebuttal of my lore interpretation.

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    • I didn't draw that conclusion.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote: BFF - Essence is different from a SOUL, we're still not even sure SOUL means what we think it means, if it's an acronym, and it seems to be since it's often in all caps, it could mean something very different. Anyways, I believe Asriel's monster soul dissapates on death (otherwise why would Gerson need to say he's going to get it back), so Flowey only has Chara's during his time as a flower.
      And this assumption that Chara's is still present is based on the notion that since humans souls persist in general, they continue to persist even after being absorbed by a monster, which has no basis. Either A) the human soul doesn't properly fuse with the monster like the monster soul does; in this case, the human soul floats independently like it would when a human dies, allowing it to be captured like the other human souls, in which case the soul is either caught and contained by Asgore, or dissipates of its own accord; or B) the human soul does fuse with the monster; in this case, Chara's soul needs to be imparted into Flowey somehow, and the only way it can work is through monster essence. But if the human soul can be imparted through monster essence, then so should the monster soul, meaning that we return to the problem of why Flowey is unable to feel compassion if he still has his own soul.

      As a digression, soul and SOUL are both used consistently and often to refer to both monsters and humans, with no real differentiation. There is likely no acronym for SOUL as there is for LOVE and EXP.


      BFF - Yes, Flowey, who is easily able to experience all other emotions, decries his lack of ability to feel love. If becoming a flower blanks his emotions, it should blank ALL of his emotions, not just one specificially. As far as I know the only explicit dialog about Flowey being soulness comes from himself. How do you explain the seventh soul Frisk finds inside Asriel?
      Where does it say that becoming a flower blanks all of Flowey's emotions?

      And what "seventh soul" are you referring to?


      BFF - Perhaps Toby didn't show a human soul coming out of Flowey when he gets cut to pieces because it would ruin the mystery? When Frisk stabs Flowey in a neutral ending, it just turns back into a normal flower without splitting apart. Perhaps Chara repeatedly chopping Flowey in the genocide ending destroy the soul before it can emerge?
      Ruin what mystery? There is only a mystery on the presumption that Chara's soul is still present in Flowey. Why does it need to be "preserved?" There are still a host of questions that arise about how Chara is able to influence Frisk on the Genocide Route if Chara's soul is inside Flowey, or how Chara's soul survives and why Asriel's soul doesn't, and so on and so on. No mystery is being ruined by making something this important more clear.


      BFF - Again, essense is a different thing. Even those who believe Flowey is soulless accept that Asriel essense is in him after it scattered over the First Flower. If Asriel still had his own soul inside him he'd be able to feel love, so I don't think it made the transition. Perhaps a person can't feel their own soul? Flowey assumes he's soulless because he can't feel love, so it's a bit of a cycle.
      Except that Flowey as acknowledges that he is able to feel things he could not before when he absorbs the human souls in the Neutral route. As Isthereaplace noted above, Flowey does not suddenly change his demeanor upon absorbing the human souls, despite the fact that they should be capable of feeling compassion in contrast to Chara's, and one of them is even meant to represent kindness. If Flowey cannot feel compassion specifically because he has Chara's soul originally, then the process of absorbing the other six souls should allow him to feel the specific emotion he is lacking.

      It also runs into a logical problem. Flowey specifically needs seven souls in order to return himself to his original form as Asriel. Which is why he absorbs the monster souls as well in the True Pacifist route. If Flowey already has a human soul when he absorbs the other six, then he has the power necessary to break the barrier. He specifically says he only has six souls when he becomes Photoshop Flowey, and that he needs one more before he can go out and destroy the world. But if he has Chara's soul, then he has seven, and he doesn't need to take Frisk's (he still can, but it isn't needed). And he can't simply not recognize that he doesn't have a soul already, because he remarks on how he has been empty and feels different having absorbed the six souls, while if he already has a soul inside of him, he should feel no different (at most, he should only feel more powerful).


      Could you list this explicit evidence please? So far we only have Flowey's word that he's soulless, which he bases on the face that he feels empty inside, because he can't feel love, not knowing he can't feel love because he's got Chara's loveless soul inside him.

      There's Flowey's statements, not only acknowledging that he is lacking something in general, but that he specifically feels differently after he has absorbed a soul. There's the specific line from Alphys's lab about something which has no soul gaining the will to live (your argument about Alphys injecting determination into the other flowers doesn't work here, as what sets Flowey apart is the existence of the essence, which as you have also agreed is not the same thing as a soul). There's the line from Asriel about how he was soulless as a flower. There are also the various logical problems that I've laid out above. Meanwhile, there is no indication of Chara's soul still being present in Flowey, and you have not provided evidence, either explicit or implicit, for why we should even entertain the notion in the first place in contrast to the "standard interpretation."</div>

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    • I feel like giving a status report, so:

      Right now

      - I don't think there is convincing evidence presented to validate the theory so far

      - I don't think there is progress towards convincing evidence being presented any time soon

      - I don't think I know what the theory's intrinsic values are

      - I don't feel that they are presented in a sympathetic enough way that would validate the theory as something worth believing in

      - I don't feel free to try and delve deep into the theory on my own, so I can find intrinsic values that I find sympathetic without need for presentation

      - I feel like the best way I can aid the pro team is leaving, so if that ever happens, I'm probably rooting for them

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    • Also, I seem to have technical difficulties.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      BlackfootFerret wrote: Ok. We do see Chara narrating in red text during parts of the Genocide run.

      I do agree that Sans Papyrus and Gaster traveled together from another place, and know each other well. Papyrus is definitley a real skeleton monster, but my own take is that Sans and Gaster were both human, at least at some point in the past.

      If Flowey actually had a monster soul and a human soul, he'd be able to go through the barrier on his own to collect more human souls, and wouldn't need to hunt for Asgore's 6 captured souls. It's possible he never tried to go back through the barrier, believing himself to be empty, but with all his Groundhog Day resets I think he'd of discovered it eventually.  I don't think anyone succeeded in going through the barrier except for Asriel and Chara until the barrier was finally destroyed.

      Ghosts definitley have a very important place in Undertale. We know Mettaton used to be a ghost, and Blooky's cousin, so ghosts have souls. Blooky also says in the True Pacifist Epilogue that the white light that was collecting everyone (Asriel) tried to collect him too, but he closed the blinds, and afterwards he was the only one who couldn't remember who Asriel was. Ghosts and burrowing creatures (like Flowey) are specifically listed as the only creatures who can travel back and forth been the Underground and The Ruins, which Blooky can certanly do.

      Ghosts and Amalgamates also seem to be the only creatures who can radicatlly shift their shape. Which is very interesting, because Muffet says she saw the creature who paid her to collect Frisk's soul shapeshift in the shadows. A ghost might have it in for Frisk.

      Chara is a ghost, and is called in many places in the game Neither Human Nor Monster, able to absorb human and monster souls. A first-class threat.

      In Gaster's secret room, you can walk right through his sprite as if it isn't even there, something you can't do with most NPCS. Then he shapeshifts a little as he fades away when you touch him. Gaster's definitely a ghost now, and he's going to be incredibly dangerous in the next game.

      The red text symbolises Chara becoming more active and riled up by your own malice-filled soul it's not just Frisk's soul you're damning when you go full on no mercy.

      Nah, revenants are an obvious inspiration for the Skeletrio to me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uBGfEOoDkM

      Flowey wasn't aware of Chara's continued presence inside him I mean for Gods sake the petal brain thinks he's soulless.

      Gotta love dem ghosts, an OP race indeed.

      It would be interesting for a ghost to be the new antagonist for a potential sequel.

      Chara is indeed a ghost but the whole not human thing is just meant to show how ironic it is that he's the only TRUE monster here in a geno route.

      Gaster is more so just intangible than a ghost as that kinda happens when you're ripped from space-time.


      I'll see your Gaijin Goomba, and raise you a Swanky Box :) This is the video that first made me first question wether Sans might still be human:

      "Is Sans a Human?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uV8Hra09JM

      If you look at the "How can I say this without fear? I'm holding his head Right Here" Gaster follower, he's holding a human head in his hands, which is the thing that's actually talking. The followers might all be pieces of him.

      All W.D. Gaster Encounters in Undertale https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C1cvPaaoiU

      I have a long theory about why Alphys wasn't able to get souls out of the Fallen Down monsters, about why Omega Flowey and Asriel DON'T act like Amalgamates, even though technically they should, and what our "friend" Gaster has been up to since his fortunate demise, but it's going to sound crazier than everything else so far, I'l wait until I get the script finished.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:

      ...why Omega Flowey and Asriel DON'T act like Amalgamates, even though technically they should...

      That's because Flowey is a soulless vessel, not a monster​, he wouldn't melt like the amalgamates

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    • Isthereaplace wrote: I didn't draw that conclusion.

      Just making sure you don't.

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    • Flowey doesn't act like an algamate as despite possessing a monster and human soul when he is first revived his body is still technically that of a flower not a Monster's.

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    • Well, here's my theory about the Amalgamates:

      First, you have to ask, what does it mean when a monster "Falls Down"?

      When Toriel first finds you, and says she goes here every day to see if anyone has "Fallen Down", we immediately assume she's looking for humans. But like most assumptions in Undertale, they're dangerous to make.

      Undertale tells us that only Ghosts and burrowing creatures (like Flowey) can travel back and forth between the Ruins and the Underground. So you'd think humans were the only ones even capable of Falling Down, and it would only happen in that skylight of the Ruins.

      And yet, there are multiple accounts of monsters Falling Down in the Underground, which is why Asgore has so many Fallen Down monsters to send to Alphys in her lab. A common trait is that these monsters are all unconscious and unresponsive, and yet, since monsters turn to dust when they die, none of them are actually DEAD.

      Alyphs remarks that soon they will all turn to dust, but before that happens she hopes to inject them with Determination so, as Asgore ordered her to, she can make their SOULS persist after death for collection, eventually over time giving Asgore enough to reach the equivalent power of the 7th human soul needed to break the barrier.

      But this never happens.. because instead of dying, the monsters wake up again, being normal for a while, but then join together to become the amalgamates, and Alphys never succeeds in collecting any monster souls at all.

      Now, let's go back to what it means for a monster to Fall Down. People have theorized this means a monster dying of old age, and yet when you break into Mettaton's house and read his/her journal, you learn Shyren's cousin has also fallen down, a young girl monster. In fact, the Lemon Bread amalgamate has AARON in it, who's literally as healthy as a horse! Old age does not explain the Falling Down phenomenon.

      Remember how I mentioned that Omega Flowey and Absolute God of Hyperdeath Asriel should act like amalgamates, a merging of several different monsters, but don't?

      If my main thread theory is true, it's because Asriel, and all the other monsters he absorbs all have SOULS, which preserve each of their individual identities even when merged together, and allow the merged monsters to be seperated out into their original forms again.

      And the reason the Amalgamates all blend together into a mess where you can't tell where one monsters ends, and another one begins, where there's absolutely no seperation between the minds and identiies of merged monsters, is because NONE OF THE FALLEN DOWN MONSTERS HAD SOULS TO BEGIN WITH!!

      Why does a monster Fall Down, yet not die? It's because something essential has been taken from them. Someone has already taken their souls, although this sounds impossible.

      The only way to get a soul from a non-boss monster would be to give them an injection of determination, so our soul-stealing assassin would have to have both a source of determination on hand, and the know-how to gather it, and inject it into others.

      And this attacker would also have to be a ghost in order to be able to strike at the Ruins as well as the Underground, since monsters have been falling down in both locations. Remember that a human hasn't fallen down into the Ruins in ages, yet Toriel, the Queen of All Monsters, makes daily patrols looking for ANYONE who has fallen down.

      So we're looking for a ghost, who was once human and has a human SOUL, and a knowledge of how Determination Extracton works, who has a love of decidedly dark experiments.

      Don't everyone say GASTER at once :)

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    • I don't say Gaster. Gaster is highly speculative, and is usually the "wild card" for anything that needs it.

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    • Mabian wrote:
      BlackfootFerret wrote: BFF - Essence is different from a SOUL, we're still not even sure SOUL means what we think it means, if it's an acronym, and it seems to be since it's often in all caps, it could mean something very different. Anyways, I believe Asriel's monster soul dissapates on death (otherwise why would Gerson need to say he's going to get it back), so Flowey only has Chara's during his time as a flower.
      And this assumption that Chara's is still present is based on the notion that since humans souls persist in general, they continue to persist even after being absorbed by a monster, which has no basis. Either A) the human soul doesn't properly fuse with the monster like the monster soul does; in this case, the human soul floats independently like it would when a human dies, allowing it to be captured like the other human souls, in which case the soul is either caught and contained by Asgore, or dissipates of its own accord; or B) the human soul does fuse with the monster; in this case, Chara's soul needs to be imparted into Flowey somehow, and the only way it can work is through monster essence. But if the human soul can be imparted through monster essence, then so should the monster soul, meaning that we return to the problem of why Flowey is unable to feel compassion if he still has his own soul.

      As a digression, soul and SOUL are both used consistently and often to refer to both monsters and humans, with no real differentiation. There is likely no acronym for SOUL as there is for LOVE and EXP.


      BFF - Yes, Flowey, who is easily able to experience all other emotions, decries his lack of ability to feel love. If becoming a flower blanks his emotions, it should blank ALL of his emotions, not just one specificially. As far as I know the only explicit dialog about Flowey being soulness comes from himself. How do you explain the seventh soul Frisk finds inside Asriel?
      Where does it say that becoming a flower blanks all of Flowey's emotions?

      And what "seventh soul" are you referring to?


      BFF - Perhaps Toby didn't show a human soul coming out of Flowey when he gets cut to pieces because it would ruin the mystery? When Frisk stabs Flowey in a neutral ending, it just turns back into a normal flower without splitting apart. Perhaps Chara repeatedly chopping Flowey in the genocide ending destroy the soul before it can emerge?
      Ruin what mystery? There is only a mystery on the presumption that Chara's soul is still present in Flowey. Why does it need to be "preserved?" There are still a host of questions that arise about how Chara is able to influence Frisk on the Genocide Route if Chara's soul is inside Flowey, or how Chara's soul survives and why Asriel's soul doesn't, and so on and so on. No mystery is being ruined by making something this important more clear.


      BFF - Again, essense is a different thing. Even those who believe Flowey is soulless accept that Asriel essense is in him after it scattered over the First Flower. If Asriel still had his own soul inside him he'd be able to feel love, so I don't think it made the transition. Perhaps a person can't feel their own soul? Flowey assumes he's soulless because he can't feel love, so it's a bit of a cycle.
      Except that Flowey as acknowledges that he is able to feel things he could not before when he absorbs the human souls in the Neutral route. As Isthereaplace noted above, Flowey does not suddenly change his demeanor upon absorbing the human souls, despite the fact that they should be capable of feeling compassion in contrast to Chara's, and one of them is even meant to represent kindness. If Flowey cannot feel compassion specifically because he has Chara's soul originally, then the process of absorbing the other six souls should allow him to feel the specific emotion he is lacking.

      It also runs into a logical problem. Flowey specifically needs seven souls in order to return himself to his original form as Asriel. Which is why he absorbs the monster souls as well in the True Pacifist route. If Flowey already has a human soul when he absorbs the other six, then he has the power necessary to break the barrier. He specifically says he only has six souls when he becomes Photoshop Flowey, and that he needs one more before he can go out and destroy the world. But if he has Chara's soul, then he has seven, and he doesn't need to take Frisk's (he still can, but it isn't needed). And he can't simply not recognize that he doesn't have a soul already, because he remarks on how he has been empty and feels different having absorbed the six souls, while if he already has a soul inside of him, he should feel no different (at most, he should only feel more powerful).


      Could you list this explicit evidence please? So far we only have Flowey's word that he's soulless, which he bases on the face that he feels empty inside, because he can't feel love, not knowing he can't feel love because he's got Chara's loveless soul inside him.
      There's Flowey's statements, not only acknowledging that he is lacking something in general, but that he specifically feels differently after he has absorbed a soul. There's the specific line from Alphys's lab about something which has no soul gaining the will to live (your argument about Alphys injecting determination into the other flowers doesn't work here, as what sets Flowey apart is the existence of the essence, which as you have also agreed is not the same thing as a soul). There's the line from Asriel about how he was soulless as a flower. There are also the various logical problems that I've laid out above. Meanwhile, there is no indication of Chara's soul still being present in Flowey, and you have not provided evidence, either explicit or implicit, for why we should even entertain the notion in the first place in contrast to the "standard interpretation."

      I'm just saying there's a reason Toby puts SOUL in all caps, I imagine he's going to pull the rug out from under us at some point and say it means Super Obvious Ultimate Lemonadestand at some point. There's clearly more to an Undertale character than just their SOUL.

      The Seveth Soul I'm referring to is in the Asriel, Absolute God of Hyperdeath fight. After you save your six friends, Frisk senses another presense within Asriel, and calls a name out to it. Asriel is immediatly surprised, and affected by it "What did you DO?" it's clearly not something he expects.

      If a red heart suddenly pops out of Flowey when you killed him, it would clear the mystery right up, so Toby doesn't make it obvious that Flowey has a human soul in him. So Toby hid that and left more subtle clues, like Flowey saying he and Chara were always inseperable even after all these years.

      Omega Flowey only absorbed the six human souls Asgore captured right before our battle with him, and they prove later on they have the capacity to rebel even from inside him when he's damaged enough, and they're angry enough to rebel. Flowey would have had Chara's soul inside him for a very long time though, and his connection to it would be a lot stronger than the others. Asriel gets some feeling from the other souls inside him, but only really starts to feel compassion again himself when Frisk starts to save the 7th soul, which clearly belongs to him in some fashion.

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    • Rifqitheflipper wrote:
      BlackfootFerret wrote:

      ...why Omega Flowey and Asriel DON'T act like Amalgamates, even though technically they should...

      That's because Flowey is a soulless vessel, not a monster​, he wouldn't melt like the amalgamates

      Actually I have a theory about that too. See my big post about the Amalgamates/Fallen Down Monsters being the victims of having their souls stolen by someone two posts above.

      Alphys only (knowingly?) injects Determination into the Fallen Down monsters, who she doesn't realize lack the souls that most monsters possess, so when she sees the horrible effect Determination has on these monsters, and how they melt together so easily, she thinks this is the normal effect Determination has on monsters.

      But she's forgotten the critical and only member of the Control Group: Undyne.

      It's very clear in the game from both Undyne's neutral death and her super-saiyan genocide rebirth as Undyne the Undying that Undyne has Determination inside her. We can argue about how she got it, whether natural, or from the pink goop Alphys feeds her and tells her is ice cream.. but I think we can all agree than Undyne got Determinaton, somehow.

      And what does Determinaton do to Undyne? .. seemingly very little. She's had it for a long time, and if anything it seems to have made her much stronger than most monsters. She's clearly touched other monsters like Monster Kid, and hasn't merged or melted with them. She picks Frisk up by the head and jumps across the room, depositing him by the kitchen counter, showing amazing strength for someone who's actually almost a stick-figure in build. It's only after you hit her again, and Again, and AGAIN that finally she starts to show the telltale signs of Determination Melting, and finally, very relucantly, dies.

      Undyne is a monster with a soul, and Determination only served to make her super-hardcore. This may actually be the usual effect Determination has on monsters, since Alphys doesn't know her Fallen Down specimins are very different from the norm. Only something very weak would succumb to Determination Melting so easily

      I actually think that Amalgamates and Ghosts have a lot in common in Undertale. They're both basically invicible to attack, the both can shapeshift, and they're both represented as White. We know that most ghosts have souls though, as in Mettaton's case, so his/her cousin Napstablook would have one too. Blooky is a singular entity that isn't visibly falling apart, so he clearly has somethign the Amalgamates lack.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      I don't say Gaster. Gaster is highly speculative, and is usually the "wild card" for anything that needs it.


      Well, here's EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT GASTER:

      Gaster was a human. The follower that says "I'm holding a piece of him, right here" is holding a talking human head.

      Gaster designed the Core, and fell into it, becoming scattered across time and space.

      Gaster is now a Ghost, when you encounter his secret room Frisk can pass right through him, something that doesn't work for any other NPC, and then Gaster gives a start and fades away when you try to interact with him.

      W. D. Gaster is named after the Wing Dings font, which he speaks in, making him the third member of The Font Brigade, along with Sans and Papyrus.

      Sans and Papyrus clearly knew Gaster at some point, Sans (and likely Papyrus too, if the Annoying Dog hadn't stolen his) packs Gaster Blasters as weapons. During his "Darker Darkest" secret 17th True Lab recording, Gaster asks "What do you two think?"

      Gaster, not Alphys, was the one who invented the Determination Extraction Machine. Alphys found a set of blueprints and built the machine using them, she didn't DESIGN it. Gaster was experimenting with Determination long before Alphys did.

      Gaster's 17th True Lab message talks about an incredible dark experiment he's conducting. This puts it right between Message 16 "No No NONONO!" and Message 18 "The Flower's Gone." Considering that Flowey didn't show immediate signs of animation after getting multiple shots of Determination, this may actually mean that Gaster had a hand in Flowey's creation.

      An alternative interpretation of Message 17 is that it coinincides with Alphy's datamined hidden Message 17, where she talks about the Fallen Down monsters all melting together to form the Amalgamates. Which could mean that Gaster had a hand in the creation of the Amalgamates, and if my theory about Gaster creating the Fallen Down monsters by stealing their souls is correct, this pans out, Gaster DID have an indirect hand in creating the Amalgamates.

      In Toby's Earthbound Halloween Hack, just before reaching the fight with the fallen Doctor Andonuts, you see a pixelart face that's clearly an altered version of the Uboa easter egg face, made to look more masculine. And it also contains Gaster's telltale up and down eyeslashes.

      Gaster, in some capacity, is still active even in Frisk's time. The boat pilot warns Frisk "Beware the man who speaks in hands." and "Beware the man from the other world."

      Muffet the spider queen tells Frisk that someone who could shapeshift offered her money in exchange for collecting Frisk's soul for them. If the Amalgamates all reside in the True Lab, this means a Ghost wants Frisk's soul.

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    • Sprites aren't necessarily accurate. Chara's is modified slightly from their sepia appearances, and the mercenaries don't look at all like the shadowy figures that represent them. One even has a remark on it, saying something like that everyone has an angle they look best from.

      Also, if humans could be told apart purely by looks, everyone who have seen a human would recognize the protagonist as one. Yet Asgore does on neutral but doesn't on genocide.

      I'm not interested in Gaster theories, but I know they tend to vary wildly, even with so much supposed evidence. Gaster is usually pulled in to say things that need a vague, but powerful actor. I don't like Gaster theories, they are like pulling the rabbit out of the magic hat, sweeping everything else aside, because if it is Gaster, then the universe can be assumed to bend, and there is no real argument against it, that is not Gaster.

      You don't need to convince me. I simply don't go into Gaster, because I don't feel there is anything for me in it.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:
      I'm just saying there's a reason Toby puts SOUL in all caps, I imagine he's going to pull the rug out from under us at some point and say it means Super Obvious Ultimate Lemonadestand at some point. There's clearly more to an Undertale character than just their SOUL.

      Sure, there's a reason that Toby puts SOUL in all caps in some places. But given that there exists both the capitalized and non-capitalized form, and both are used interchangeably, the explanation should not be assumed that it is because the capitalized version is an acronym. The only way we could justify claiming it is an acronym is if there is a significant difference in usage. Take, for example, love versus LOVE. "Love" is used as one would normally expect from the word, while "LOVE" is used in very specific circumstances, namely, in the initial encounter with Flowey and during the judgment with Sans (an exception to this is Bratty and Catty, who have a few lines about how they "LOVE" a variety of things, although this can be explained as capitalization for emphasis).

      In the absence of such a differentiation, the most likely explanation for the capitalization is emphasis: the concept of "soul" plays an important role in the narrative of Undertale, so you should make sure to pay attention to it

      The Seveth Soul I'm referring to is in the Asriel, Absolute God of Hyperdeath fight. After you save your six friends, Frisk senses another presense within Asriel, and calls a name out to it. Asriel is immediatly surprised, and affected by it "What did you DO?" it's clearly not something he expects.

      Yeah, that "seventh soul" is Asriel. The "someone else" that you save immediately turns into "Asriel Dreemurr." Asriel is the "one last person" that you are saving. Having that person be Chara makes no sense, because you never actually call out "Chara's" name, and the only name that you get is Asriel's. And if Asriel is being saved as well as Chara, then there isn't "one last person" being saved. There's two.

      If a red heart suddenly pops out of Flowey when you killed him, it would clear the mystery right up, so Toby doesn't make it obvious that Flowey has a human soul in him. So Toby hid that and left more subtle clues, like Flowey saying he and Chara were always inseperable even after all these years.

      This is begging the question. Not to mention that that subtle clue doesn't make sense with the conclusion you try to draw, as Flowey says it after "recognizing" the protagonist as Chara.

      Omega Flowey only absorbed the six human souls Asgore captured right before our battle with him, and they prove later on they have the capacity to rebel even from inside him when he's damaged enough, and they're angry enough to rebel. Flowey would have had Chara's soul inside him for a very long time though, and his connection to it would be a lot stronger than the others. Asriel gets some feeling from the other souls inside him, but only really starts to feel compassion again himself when Frisk starts to save the 7th soul, which clearly belongs to him in some fashion.


      Again, that "seventh soul" is Asriel himself.

      The problem, once again, is that your theory rests entirely upon the idea that Flowey has a human soul already, and cannot feel compassion purely because the soul he happens to possess is incapable of compassion. It must follow from that that if he were to absorb a soul that can feel compassion, his demeanor should change. Given that he absorbs six such souls, and yet remains the same, the explanation for his behavior cannot be "he just happened to have a soul that lacked the ability to feel compassion."

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    • All right, since we seem to be bogged down on the evidence side, I'll try to approach this from the other way round. So:

      What are this theory's merits that may appeal to someone who happens to like Chara? Or for someone, who believes in the narrator Chara theory? Or someone, who doesn't think there is anyone truly evil within the game?

      Because so far, I couldn't figure out these, and weren't convinced that logic dictates that Asriel should get two souls on Chara's expense.

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    • If you fellows are interrested, I have something for you which can answer all of your questions. One for the subject Chara and the one for the subject called SOUL.


      A In-Depth-CHARActer Analysis by TheFloweryFanclub (now Determinators)

      - http://determinators.tumblr.com/post/143284030397/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this

      - http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:89437


      SOUL is a acronym as well...

      - http://imgur.com/Zo3MobI

      - http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:90720

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    • Sorry, but I know both. The first is good, but I didn't need it to believe in most of what it tries to explain. The second doesn't really appeal to me.

      I'm here for what this thread holds, not to do some crusading and converting.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote: Sorry, but I know both. The first is good, but I didn't need it to believe in most of what it tries to explain. The second doesn't really appeal to me.

      I'm here for what this thread holds, not to do some crusading and converting.

      Same, the second one doesn't hold strong as Flowey states what a SOUL is at the beginning and this acronym is just needlessly complex.

      First one is entertaining though.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Isthereaplace wrote: Sorry, but I know both. The first is good, but I didn't need it to believe in most of what it tries to explain. The second doesn't really appeal to me.

      I'm here for what this thread holds, not to do some crusading and converting.

      Same, the second one doesn't hold strong as Flowey states what a SOUL is at the beginning and this acronym is just needlessly complex.

      Then tell me, how can a supposingly soulless spirit (Chara) exist in the first place?

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      All right, since we seem to be bogged down on the evidence side, I'll try to approach this from the other way round. So:

      What are this theory's merits that may appeal to someone who happens to like Chara? Or for someone, who believes in the narrator Chara theory? Or someone, who doesn't think there is anyone truly evil within the game?

      Because so far, I couldn't figure out these, and weren't convinced that logic dictates that Asriel should get two souls on Chara's expense.


      Someone who likes Chara would enjoy the possiblity that the climax of the True Pacifist Ending (which I believe is the canon ending) is when Frisk SAVE's Chara's soul, repairing its damaged state so that she, too, can feel compassion.

      She and Asriel have always been inseperable, although Asriel considered them to be best friends, while Chara was secretly using him. Now, though, for the first time, they really are best friends, closer than anyone could possibly be, best friends in truth for the first time.

      Also, the prospect of Asriel harboring Chara's soul, then eventually getting his own back over time, raises the possiblity that in the sequel (which I'm absolutely certain is happening) Chara's soul might leave Asriel and allow the redeemed Chara to be full ressurected herself, and become a full member of the team.

      So in the True Pacifist ending, Chara is saved, while in the Genocide ending Chara is dammed.

      Considering that we, the player, have gone into this game considering that WE were Chara, and our actions determine the outcome of this, I think it's very poetic that we get to save ourselves by being good.

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    • I may have missed it, but when, where, how, and why Chara has lost their compassion according to this theory? Because from the new information, it seems they are assumed to have had compassion at some point.

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    • Thanatos-Zero wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote:

      Isthereaplace wrote: Sorry, but I know both. The first is good, but I didn't need it to believe in most of what it tries to explain. The second doesn't really appeal to me.

      I'm here for what this thread holds, not to do some crusading and converting.

      Same, the second one doesn't hold strong as Flowey states what a SOUL is at the beginning and this acronym is just needlessly complex.

      Then tell me, how can a supposingly soulless spirit (Chara) exist in the first place?

      Simple, he's not soulless.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote: I may have missed it, but when, where, how, and why Chara has lost their compassion according to this theory? Because from the new information, it seems they are assumed to have had compassion at some point.

      You don't lose something you never had. Chara sort of understood it a little from Asriel but it's only with Frisk does he actually truly get what compassion is.

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    • Shouldn't repairing the damaged state of Chara's soul mean they lost the ability instead of never having it?

      Also, if it is so, it isn't really compelling to someone who likes Chara. It pushes everything in the direction that they are inherently bad, and whatever good you may find in them is Asriel's, who is already good beyond reason. Yet, he has to be even better than that, and if someone likes Chara, they have to like Asriel in them.

      I don't want to idolize Chara or anything, they are flawed anyway, but I want to like them for who they truly are, or were, (whatever is the take on that), and not for what Asriel and Frisk makes them to be.

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    • Thanatos-Zero wrote:
      If you fellows are interrested, I have something for you which can answer all of your questions. One for the subject Chara and the one for the subject called SOUL.

      A In-Depth-CHARActer Analysis by TheFloweryFanclub (now Determinators)

      - http://determinators.tumblr.com/post/143284030397/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this

      OH MY GOD! I just spent about six hours reading this whole thing, it's amazing!

      OK.. Chara might be the narrator. That still stacks with the whole We Are Chara metaphor and doesn't get in the way of any of my theories, so it's viable.

      Perhaps I was too harsh on Chara. If she and Asriel both shared control when they visited the human town it might have been than Asriel got cold feet, didn't want to kill anyone, and resisted while Chara wanted to say to the Collect Six Souls plan.

      I've seen crafty sociopaths decieve good innocent people for years before, so when I heard of how Chara betrayed Asriel I was ready to get the flaming pitchforks. But it does seem like something terrible happened to Chara in her village, that got her to hate humanity, and try to take her own life by throwing herself into the Underground. It could be that Chara is a victim as well, and the lasting damage her experience did to her took a long time and some of Frisk's magic to heal. Perhaps she really was closer to Asriel in life than I thought.

      I found several bits of text I hadn't come across in the game before also.

      I don't think this counters any of my theories. If anything it implies that Chara and Asriel were closer than I realized even before Chara's plan, which reenforces how Inseperable the two characters are.

      Also, the game specifically points out "A monster with a human SOUL...  A horrible beast with unfathomable power. " which would mean this eventuality is possible. And if my theory is correct, this is exactly what Asriel is at the end of Undertale. (except for the horrible beast part)

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    • Isthereaplace wrote: Shouldn't repairing the damaged state of Chara's soul mean they lost the ability instead of never having it?

      Also, if it is so, it isn't really compelling to someone who likes Chara. It pushes everything in the direction that they are inherently bad, and whatever good you may find in them is Asriel's, who is already good beyond reason. Yet, he has to be even better than that, and if someone likes Chara, they have to like Asriel in them.

      I don't want to idolize Chara or anything, they are flawed anyway, but I want to like them for who they truly are, or were, (whatever is the take on that), and not for what Asriel and Frisk makes them to be.

      We don't know enough of Chara's life before falling down to know for sure if he had previously felt compassion but regardless the kid had issues and while Asriel did introduce positivity back into his life it was not enough. Chara is not inherently bad though as there is no such thing as inherently bad only genetically predisposed but we don't know Chara's parents so no on that front. Chara is not even 'evil' per say just incredibly cynical towards humanity which consumed him and developed into mania.

      Your also missing the point when going on about un-compelling as Asriel STATES Chara wasn't the best person (and neither was Asriel really) thus failing to rehabilitate Chara.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      I may have missed it, but when, where, how, and why Chara has lost their compassion according to this theory? Because from the new information, it seems they are assumed to have had compassion at some point.

      The In Depth CHARActer Analysis post above goes into it quite a bit.

      It's heavy implied that Chara climbed the mountain and threw herself in.. because she was committing suicide. Something that Flowey actually ponders as well in his Genocide-run conversation with you near the end.

      Asriel tells us that Chara hated Humanity, perhaps something terrible happened in her villiage that sent her on this adventure in the first place. Something has seriously hurt Chara in the past, and left its mark of damage upon her soul.

      It's quite possible that Chara designed her plan on herself dying, Asriel absorbing her soul, and heading through the barrier to collect six other human souls, not with the intention of freeing Asriel's people.. but on the Monsters destroying Humanity. Asriel realized this, too late, and resisted, leading to their death.

      Chara may not have been completely black-hearted, but her primary goal seemed to be revenge on her village, willing to do anything, including sacrifice herself, to achieve this. That's pretty cold.

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      Shouldn't repairing the damaged state of Chara's soul mean they lost the ability instead of never having it?

      Also, if it is so, it isn't really compelling to someone who likes Chara. It pushes everything in the direction that they are inherently bad, and whatever good you may find in them is Asriel's, who is already good beyond reason. Yet, he has to be even better than that, and if someone likes Chara, they have to like Asriel in them.

      I don't want to idolize Chara or anything, they are flawed anyway, but I want to like them for who they truly are, or were, (whatever is the take on that), and not for what Asriel and Frisk makes them to be.

      Well, the big metaphor in Undertale is that acting like your regular RPG protagonist, thoughtlessly slaughtering all the monsters you find, is bad. So they set up someone with this mindset, and then let you decide if they learn to change their ways or not.

      Chara seems to be a tragic, damaged person who was bent on revenge against her villiage after trying to commit suicide by jumping down the mounter, and finding allies instead of death.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:

      Isthereaplace wrote:
      Shouldn't repairing the damaged state of Chara's soul mean they lost the ability instead of never having it?

      Also, if it is so, it isn't really compelling to someone who likes Chara. It pushes everything in the direction that they are inherently bad, and whatever good you may find in them is Asriel's, who is already good beyond reason. Yet, he has to be even better than that, and if someone likes Chara, they have to like Asriel in them.

      I don't want to idolize Chara or anything, they are flawed anyway, but I want to like them for who they truly are, or were, (whatever is the take on that), and not for what Asriel and Frisk makes them to be.

      Well, the big metaphor in Undertale is that acting like your regular RPG protagonist, thoughtlessly slaughtering all the monsters you find, is bad. So they set up someone with this mindset, and then let you decide if they learn to change their ways or not.

      Chara seems to be a tragic, damaged person who was bent on revenge against her villiage after trying to commit suicide by jumping down the mounter, and finding allies instead of death.

      Seems about right.

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    • So, basically the merit of this theory for someone who likes to think Chara isn't all that bad, is that if they are imagined as willing (remorseless), large-scale (aiming for massive damage), broad-scope (aiming for widespread damage), habitual (self-made) villain, then they can be imagined as an extension of Asriel. So, whoever wants to like them, has to do for qualities they never had before, and project it through an other character.

      Does that really sound satisfying?

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    • Isthereaplace wrote:
      So, basically the merit of this theory for someone who likes to think Chara isn't all that bad, is that if they are imagined as willing (remorseless), large-scale (aiming for massive damage), broad-scope (aiming for widespread damage), habitual (self-made) villain, then they can be imagined as an extension of Asriel. So, whoever wants to like them, has to do for qualities they never had before, and project it through an other character.

      Does that really sound satisfying?


      Um, not sure I followed all of that.

      What I was going for was that Chara heavily represents The Player, and that we get a powerful personal connection to Asriel.

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    • I'll try to explain.

      You seem to believe that Chara wanted to start a war and eradicate humanity. That makes them a villain. Now, there are certain types of villains that I like, so no problem. I just take out my four-category binary villain ranking system, and try to tell if they fall under those categories.

      So, are they a willing villain? The assumption here is that they have always lacked compassion. So, I don't see a reason why would they feel remorse for their actions or the consequences. Also, they made supposedly evil plans, instead of just sitting and grieving over their misfortune. That seems like "willing".

      Now, are they a small-scale or a large-scale villain? The assumption here is aiming for the eradication of both humans and monsters. That is a pretty grand evil, with massive damage and casualties, so it seems to be "large-scale".

      Are they a narrow-scope or a broad-scope villain? The assumption is again, that they wanted both monsters and humans eradicated. That is a pretty all-encompassing evil, so not only "broad-scope", but a pretty nasty version within that.

      The last question is, are they a circumstantial or a habitual villain? With the assumption of inherent hatred and lack of compassion, instead of gaining hatred and losing compassion, they are "habitual", or if you like it better, "self-made" villain. They are cut out for the villain business, because no matter what-, even if monsters and humans were in peace and the world would be rainbows and sunshine, they would do bad things, because of their inherent nature. This is a category for addicts or other weak-willed people, for example, but they are usually "unwilling". So, we basically have psychopaths, sociopaths, demons, and the like.

      Now, I happen to not like the worst kind of villain there is of the sixteen types. Your solution so far isn't to downgrade them on any of the scales, but to have them lose their identity, and as a projection of Asriel, they become likeable. But that isn't them.

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    • Chara in the Pacifist run is an Anti-Hero and in the Genocide Run is less a villain than an Eldritch Abomination.

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    • So, what redeeming factor I don't know about makes them a possible antihero?

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    • Go and watch a pacifist run and observe the narration which we know is Chara's.

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    • I didn't ask for directions how to like Chara as the narrator. I already know that, and already like them according to that. I even know about narration that is exclusive to pacifist, and isn't mentioned in the narrator Chara theories that started to pop up recently.

      What I wanted to know is how this theory treats Chara, narrator or not. The child, who is supposed to inherently lack compassion and feel hatred, even before losing their soul. Who can't be repaired in the sense of returning to their former self, but in the sense that they become a projection of Asriel, a person who is better than they could ever have been, but isn't them.

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    • Stop going on about this 'inherent' nonsense you DON'T inherit a lack of compassion and feel hatred you're moulded into that state by events or people. And he's nothing like Asriel. Asriel was a good kid who slipped off the slippery slope of morality as Flowey but after having some sense knocked into him in the neutral run Flowey actually encourages you to do a pacifist run and he comes full circle in the true pacifist ending.

      Chara was a kid who had been damaged by humanity but still valued (even though not fully understanding) his adopted family. But he never let go of his hatred for the humans which ended up killing Asriel and tearing the Underworld and his family apart. In the Genocide Route Frisk merely confirms Chara's kill or be killed ideology and he proceeds to destroy the world. In a Neutral or pacifist run he is rather pessimistic at first but as you go further on he begins to change and at the end of pacifist is echoing Frisks gentle nature showing he is no longer the same as he once was.

      Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

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    • So, why can't they be "repaired" in the sense being repaired usually means, and not what is closer to being replaced by a newer version? This doesn't come from me, so I'm glad you let off some steam, but the problem that has confused me remains.

      Also, Narcissistic Personality Disorder pretty much covers not caring for and treating others like dirt, and being envious or thinking that others are, which isn't far from inherent lack of compassion coupled with hatred, among other things. There may be other existing psychological conditions that can fit to the description even better. So, not that I want to pull it on Chara, but it is not as impossible as you think, and also, I didn't propose the idea in the first place.

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    • This thread is super long so I haven't read all of it and this point may already have been made. Anyway, why couldn't Photoshop Flowey destroy the barrier if he already had a human soul?

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    • You didn't lose much.

      The irony here is that I could probably answer that, but since I'm still on skeptic mode, and still in the dark, I don't feel like, and I'm not sure my response would be fitting to the theory's standards.

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    • Punctuation Penguin wrote:
      This thread is super long so I haven't read all of it and this point may already have been made. Anyway, why couldn't Photoshop Flowey destroy the barrier if he already had a human soul?


      Flowey didn't believe he had a soul of his own at that point. He could feel and be aware of other souls that he captured, but what if he'd been so close to Chara and had her soul for so long that it felt like an intristic part of him, and couldn't see it?

      Remember that God of Hyberdeath Asriel is utterly surprised when you try to save another soul inside of him after your six friends, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?" and as you repeatedly try to save this 7th soul, Asriel is horrified to find he's regaining the ability to feel compassion, making him increasingly conflicted.

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    • At least now I know that my answer would have been nonstandard.

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    • BlackfootFerret wrote:

      Punctuation Penguin wrote:
      This thread is super long so I haven't read all of it and this point may already have been made. Anyway, why couldn't Photoshop Flowey destroy the barrier if he already had a human soul?


      Flowey didn't believe he had a soul of his own at that point. He could feel and be aware of other souls that he captured, but what if he'd been so close to Chara and had her soul for so long that it felt like an intristic part of him, and couldn't see it?

      Remember that God of Hyberdeath Asriel is utterly surprised when you try to save another soul inside of him after your six friends, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?" and as you repeatedly try to save this 7th soul, Asriel is horrified to find he's regaining the ability to feel compassion, making him increasingly conflicted.

      So what you are saying is that he didn't destroy it because he didn't try?

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    • Isthereaplace wrote: So, why can't they be "repaired" in the sense being repaired usually means, and not what is closer to being replaced by a newer version? This doesn't come from me, so I'm glad you let off some steam, but the problem that has confused me remains.

      Also, Narcissistic Personality Disorder pretty much covers not caring for and treating others like dirt, and being envious or thinking that others are, which isn't far from inherent lack of compassion coupled with hatred, among other things. There may be other existing psychological conditions that can fit to the description even better. So, not that I want to pull it on Chara, but it is not as impossible as you think, and also, I didn't propose the idea in the first place.

      The way I see it Chara is not narcissistic because he's too omnicidal to care about his own well-being. He even killed himself so Ariel could take his soul. He may indeed have psychological conditions like you suggest though but we need more on his back story before we can make such assumptions.

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    • I still don't feel like the purpose here is to make progress with spreading or improving the theory, and not just showing it like a curiosity.

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    • Which theory?

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    • The theory that Asriel doesn't fade, etc. I think it is still considered a theory?

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    • Blackfoot's or my version?

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    • It doesn't matter. I'm open to any version that has convincing evidence, or that is more appealing than my current standpoint, whichever that may be. I get answers from both of you already, and I have just went through arguing with you over a question about one of Blackfoot's answers. So far I don't know much about what the difference is either.

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    • Blackfoot's theory is that Asriel has Chara's soul and as he won't fade his original Soul will rebuild due to the Monster parent aging process he talks about. My theory is that Asriel never lost his soul to begin with and although his body returns to being a flower he's obviously still Asriel.

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    • What happened to Chara's soul according to your theory?

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    • It Perished alongside Asriel's after he was killed but was subsequently revived inside of Flowey where Chara's negative energy unconsciously influenced Asriel's Soul inside Flowey thus explaining the lack of compassion or positive emotions altogether. The Reset power also originated from Chara's souls which is why when Chara's soul found a more compatible host in Frisk the Reset power was transferred over to Frisk as well.

      In the Genocide Route Chara begins to stir and Frisk's own negative energy brings out the worst in Chara who's eventually grows powerful enough to take pilot over Frisk's body.

      In the Pacifist route, the good side of Chara is allowed to shine and it's his memories and his influence that allows Frisk to reach Asriel ultimately giving us the True Pacifist ending.

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    • A FANDOM user
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